April 22, 2020 Episode Transcript
The AIH Transcript for April 22, 2020
[host]Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden[/host]
Prologue
CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.
CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens".
[Music: Theme]
CO: The amount of what goes up must come down. The Prime Minister announces strict new targets on emissions -- but we'll ask the Environment Minister why Canada isn't matching even tougher targets set by the White House.
CH: The inside track. A U.S. federal judge orders Los Angeles to house every homeless resident of Skid Row by this fall -- and the group that led the lawsuit is overjoyed -- and surprised they actually got more than they asked for.
CO: Better safe than sorry. After a week of outrage over his government's handling of COVID-19, Ontario Premier Doug Ford apologized today, sort of -- but Brampton Mayor Patrick Brown says he wants less contrite talk and more action.
CH: She took everywhere she went by Storm. For the legendary burlesque dancer Tempest Storm, being onstage wasn't just a stage -- she performed from her teens right up into her early eighties.
CO: Talking point. A Minnesota man's crowning achievements are his world records related to hair -- and he'll explain when his latest triumph, the Tallest Mohawk Spike, really started to gel.
CH: And...an inseamless transition. Switzerland joins countries around the world in asking people to test their soil health by burying underpants in their garden -- where microorganisms will feast upon them.
CH: "As It Happens", the Thursday edition. Radio that sings a song of letting things have your thong.
[Music: Theme]
Part 1: Climate Change, Ford Apology, Tallest Mohawk
Climate change
Guest: Jonathan Wilkinson
CH: Justin Trudeau says Canada can do more to fight climate change. This morning the Prime Minister told an international summit that Canada would aim to reduce its carbon emissions by 40 to 45 per cent by the end of the decade. The old goal had been 30 per cent. But other countries are promising to hit even more stringent targets. It was Joe Biden who convened today's summit, and the U.S. President is promising that his country will cut its emissions by more than half by 2030. Jonathan Wilkinson is Canada's Environment Minister. We reached him in Vancouver.
CO: Minister Wilkinson, we have heard your announcement. At the same time, we heard Joe Biden's commitment for a 52 per cent reduction by 2030. Yours is only 40 to 45 per cent. Why would you allow the Americans to outdo you?
JONATHAN WILKINSON: [laughing] Well, I think what... what... what our target reflects is significant ambition on the part of Canada. As you will know, there has been enormous progress on the climate file over the course of the past few years, going from a place where emissions were rising rapidly to a point where we can commit to a target that is as ambitious as this. But of course, every country is a little bit different in terms of their structure. The United States, I think, has a bit of an easier path in the sense that they have a lot of coal-fired power generation, which is being phased out for economic reasons. And so in that context, you know, if you look at what is required to make the reductions, I would actually argue that Canada's target is more ambitious than the American target.
CO: But, I mean, Justin Trudeau always appeared like the beacon of climate action for the world when we had a climate change denier in the White House. Is it... is it harder to look good when you've got Joe Biden there?
JW: Well, [laughing] I think it's a good thing in the sense that we are pushing each other. We've certainly spent a lot of time with the Americans. I've certainly spent a lot of time with... with John Kerry talking about these issues and looking at what they are intending to do and... and how that relates to the structure of their economy. And the same thing back and forward. I think if you look on Twitter, John Kerry was pretty effusive in his endorsement of the Canadian target because I think the Americans understand, and we understand, you know, what they're facing. They understand what we're facing. And I think we're both pushing each other to be more ambitious.
CO: A number of climate change activists in this country, though, thought that you should have been more ambitious. That could have got to maybe 50 or 60 per cent. And we heard in the press conference today that this was what you considered to be not just ambitious, but more significantly, the word achievable. And so, what are the factors that prevent you from going beyond this? What makes it unachievable to go beyond this level?
JW: Well, I would say that, you know, we've always been clear with Canadians that we do need to be ambitious on the climate issue. Science tells us that we need to be ambitious, but it needs to be attainable as well. It can't be something that you simply throw a number out and have absolutely no idea how... how you can achieve that. And so what we have looked at is, you know, the overall structure of the economy and how we can drive emissions and where we can drive them and how rapidly we can drive them. As I said before, one of the big issues that is different in Canada versus the United States and in Europe is the lack of coal-fired power generation, which is, you know, a fairly low-hanging fruit in terms of the cost associated with the reductions that you need to achieve. In Canada, we have a very clean grid, so we need to make progress in reducing emissions from transportation, from oil and gas, from other industrial emissions and from buildings. And our plan is focussed on, you know, driving those emissions as quickly as we possibly can.
CO: But Canada is a very high emitter on a per capita basis, even if the percentage is low. The biggest single emitter in Canada is the oil and gas industry. So I wonder if that is a chief factor in what prevents you from going further? Is the... are you constrained by the political realities of Alberta and the jobs in the oil sands?
JW: No, we're not constrained by, I don't think, the political realities, but we are constrained by sort of the laws of physics, right? So there's a lot of work going on to reduce emissions associated with the oil sands and with the oil and gas sector in general through things like the clean fuel standard, which is just coming into force, methane reduction regulations, which are just coming in to force the price on pollution, a lot of the technology funds that we've set up to to look at hydrogen and carbon capture and all of those kinds of things. But the second way in which we're going to drive emissions reductions through the oil and gas space is accelerating the deployment of zero-emission technologies because the oil that is produced in Canada is used either domestically for transportation applications or, by and large, in the United States for transportation-related applications. In the faster we can deploy zero-emission vehicles and move to electricity or hydrogen, the faster we will see those reductions come to the fore.
CO: But that fossil fuels, we can't get away from the fact that that is where the CO2 emissions principally come from. The oil and gas industry in Canada is the biggest emitter. Alberta is high on the list. And so these are realities. And so your government is buying and supporting pipelines, buying and supporting that industry at the same time claiming that you're going to get these emissions under control. Can you really do both?
JW: Oh, absolutely. I mean, and we are doing both. I mean, I just went through [chuckling] the clean fuel standard, the methane regs, the price on pollution work we're doing with large emitters in that space and in other spaces, those are going to make a big, big change. But I would also say we are working, and we're working actually very actively with the Americans right now, on how can you accelerate the deployment of the zero-emission vehicles? I mean, you know, you will be very well aware that 98 per cent-plus of the cars that exist on the road today use oil. They use gasoline. We need to get to a point where that zero. But in the transition between now and then, we are going to need oil in the context of the internal combustion engine,
CO: You're promising to achieve the cuts to our emissions without changing your targets for the price of carbon. Is that possible?
JW: Absolutely. I mean, the price on pollution is an important part of our plan for sure. And that was part of what I announced with the prime minister in December. There are also some really important regulatory measures, and there will be some new regulatory elements. So we're working on enhancing the methane regulations with the U.S., and we're looking at transportation-related regulations. But we certainly are also going to need to do more on the investment side in areas like buildings and those kinds of things to accelerate the progress there. But, yes, absolutely, we are of the view that the price on pollution is important, but we've laid it out so that businesses, in particular, can have certainty about what that's going to look like over the course of the coming 10 years.
CO: If you're so confident you can achieve these targets without raising the price on carbon, why not be more ambitious?
JW: Well, I think, you know, the focus for us is being as ambitious as we possibly can be and ensuring that we are moving towards the economic opportunities that a low carbon universe will provide, and Canada is extremely well-positioned to go after. But it also has to be done in a way that's going to be manageable to go through this transition for workers and for provinces and territories. And that's essentially what we're doing, is putting together a plan that's going to drive economic growth at the same time, and it's going to significantly reduce emissions.
CO: We will leave it there. Minister Wilkinson, thank you.
JW: All right. Thank you very much.
CH: Jonathan Wilkinson is Canada's Environment Minister. He's in Vancouver.
[music: jazz]
Ford Apology
Guest: Patrick Brown
CH: Today, Premier Doug Ford wanted Ontarians to know he's sorry.
[sc]
DOUG FORD: We moved fast to put in measures, but we moved too fast. And I know that some of those measures, especially around enforcement, they went too far. Simply put, we got it wrong, we made a mistake, and for that, I'm sorry, and I sincerely apologize. I know that these lockdowns, they've been devastating for people. For some, it's been dealing with isolation at home. For others, it's been going to work despite the stress of working in a job that puts you and your loved ones at a higher risk of getting COVID. I want you to know that I hear you. I understand you're going through. I understand your frustration.
[/sc]
CH: For days, Ontario's premier has faced scathing criticism for his government's handling of COVID-19. Last Friday, the province introduced new restrictions, including shutting down playgrounds and giving police new powers to stop people. Those two measures were quickly scrapped after mass outrage. What health officials, and so many others, really wanted to see was paid sick leave for essential workers. And now, after weeks of desperate pleas for such a measure, the Premier said his government will be offering something -- although the details weren't clear. But that pledge -- and the apology -- did nothing to prevent tough questions from reporters. Here's the Globe and Mail's Queen's Park reporter Laura Stone.
[sc]
LAURA STONE: What exactly are you sorry for and what are you going to do about it?
DF: I'm sorry we acted too quick on the measures. All I hear is limit mobility, limit mobility. And we... we moved too quick. But any time, you know, if I make a mistake, I correct it immediately, which we did on the weekend.
[/sc]
CH: Patrick Brown is the Mayor of Brampton.
CO: Mayor Brown, the premier is sorry for moving too fast. Is that the apology you wanted to hear?
PATRICK BROWN: Well, I appreciate that the premier is taking a different course on paid sick days, on resources for hot spots. The same old approach isn't working. We need more tools, more resources to deal with a pandemic that really is out of control. Hopefully, we're going to see the details of that change course in the days to come.
CO: He said, as you heard, he got... seemed a bit teary there. I hear you. I understand what you're going through when speaking about essential workers and health care workers. What is it that you want the premier to understand about what is going on in Brampton?
PB: We have a 22 per cent positivity rate in Brampton. Our largest work sectors, food processing, transportation, logistics. They're essential workers. And so when they... when they have these lockdowns, and they spend all this time focussing on patios or hair salons, they really miss the mark on where the transmission is happening. It's happening in these crowded factories. And we need the resources to help them. The fact that we are so far into the pandemic and we still haven't vaccinated our essential workers is a mistake. You know, paid sick days is a tool that would help us until we got a vaccine and got these workers protected. It was a mistake that we didn't have that tool. You know, I did speak to the premier last night. You know, I was animated yesterday about the lack of vaccines. And he called me last night. He heard my frustration. He... you know, he promised help. He expressed concern. But, you know, we really... we really, really just need not promises, but tangible help. I noticed today they just announced three mobile clinics that are going to be set up in Brampton in the next two weeks for… for three factories. And I hope that is three of many more to come.
CO: Brampton is one of the hardest-hit hotspots in Ontario, possibly in Canada, because you do have so many of the warehouses, factories. You have lots of places where people are getting infected and then taking it home. You've said that you need vaccines. Do you think that you're getting your fair share in Bampton?
PB: You look at our COVID cases; we have 20 per cent of the COVID cases in the province. We have 10-point-five per cent of the population, of the provincial population, and we've had 10 per cent of the vaccine. So we're even under our per capita population when the promise was to have an acute focus on hot spots. If there's a house on fire, you go to that house, and you take the water guns focused on that house. You're not going to go and put a drop of water on every house in the entire subdivision and say you have to treat every house fairly. And what really irritated me earlier in the week as I was looking at the numbers from the pharmacy rollout, and Brampton has eight pharmacies delivering COVID-19 vaccines for every 100-thousand residents. Toronto has nine. Mississauga has 10. Kingston has 26 pharmacies delivering COVID-19 vaccines for every 100-thousand residents. Kingston has one of the lowest positivity rates. I can't make sense of that.
CO: Now, there... there is a story of... between you and Doug Ford. Might be some bad blood there. Do you think that that is behind it? Do you think that you are getting less because the premier has some feelings about your relationship?
PB: No, you know, I... [sigh] I found him over the last year very collaborative. He invited me over for dinner at his house last summer [chuckling]. And, you know, I found him willing to listen, willing to talk. I don't think there is any history that's preventing us from working together for our city.
CO: Why the disconnect then? Why do you think that this is so disproportionate?
PB: Well, I think the disconnect is on not recognizing the urgency that's existing in some of our hotspots. And I think this has been a failed vaccine strategy, not just in Ontario but... but Canada-wide. And so we treat every province the same. We treat every city in Ontario the same. That's how it started when the vaccine rollout happened. And this virus is not equitable. It's not fair. It attacks densely populated areas faster than it does a rural area. It attacks a crowded factory different than it does someone who's working from the comfort of their home. And so this notion that you have to treat everyone in Canada the same and every city in Ontario the same is flawed. And in fairness to Mr. Ford, he has... he has promised me last night that there's going to be an increase of vaccines coming. And I take him at his word that he's... he's serious about helping. And I explained to him the data that public health has provided to us in terms of the inequity on vaccines. And, you know, he did tell me he's going to look at it. He told me he was being given different data at a provincial level.
CO: The doctors in your... in your district and in Brampton are saying people are turning up because they're going... they're getting their infections in workplaces, and they're getting them in workplaces that they have to go there or they won't get paid, or they're essential workers. They're bringing those infections home. There are families; people are going to work with infections. They know they've got it. They've got to keep working. So what's wrong with that picture?
PB: It's a real challenge. You know, we have a workforce that is critical to Canada's supply chain. And for far too long, officials in Ottawa and in Toronto said you can't touch these factories, but we said enough in Peel region. We issued a Section 22 order to say any factory with five or more connected cases in a two-week period is going to be closed down. We know that there are factory workers going in to work sick or knowing that they could get sick because they can't afford to miss a paycheque. Twenty-five per cent of our COVID-19 cases since August in Peel region have involved essential workers going in to work sick.
CO: Doug Ford replaced you as leader of the Progressive Conservative Party just before the election in 2018. And we don't need to revisit that controversy. But I wonder, do you think about how you might have done things differently over this pandemic had you been their premier right now?
PB: Yeah, I provide feedback regularly to the province. I've got lots of friends there. I've shared my feedback with the premier's chief of staff.
CO: And has it been listened to?
PB: On some cases, yes. And on some cases, it hasn't. You know, when I was pushing the premier for more testing, for a commitment on a new hospital, on isolation centres, he came through. On paid sick days and more vaccines, it's been slower than I would have liked. But, you know, I would say last week I was having the prime minister and the premier call asking how they can help. Frankly, I haven't seen this level of collaboration in any other period. So there are some positives in this... in this adversity.
CO: We'll leave it there. Mayor Brown, thank you.
PB: OK, thank you.
CH: Patrick Brown is the Mayor of Brampton, Ontario.
[music: glassy guitar riff]
Tallest Mohawk
Guest: Joe Grisamore
CH: A lot of us are sporting uncharacteristically long hair these days -- thanks to continued physical distancing from our barbers. But in Joe Grisamore's case, long hair is anything but uncharacteristic. The Minnesota man is already a world record holder for Tallest Full Mohawk. And now he says he's netted himself still more hair-raising recognition. We reached Mr. Grisamore in Park Rapids, Minnesota.
CO: Joe, when is the last time you cut your hair?
JOE GRISMORE: In 2013. I had to cut my hair. It was actually 66 inches long at that point. That's when I got married. We went on honeymoon, and saltwater dreaded my hair to the point of no return.
CO: Owwwww!
JG: So, I sadly had to shave it at that point, which is a little disappointing, but it's like my superpower; it grows incredibly fast.
CO: So now, how... before you put it up into a mohawk, did you have any idea how long it was?
JG: Well, no, not entirely, no. You know, I'm the Guinness World Record title holder for the Tallest Full Mohawk, currently. And I was awarded that last year. At that time, my hair was 42 and a half inches. So it's grown eight inches, apparently. And I hadn't really practiced or pre-measured, [CO chuckles], so I was a little nervous going into the attempt, to be honest with you. But, you know, I'm feeling pretty confident because the final measurement was 50-point-nine inches.
CO: Wow!
JG: And the current record is 48 inches.
CO: And that's held by a man in Japan who has the record for the Tallest Mohawk Spike; 48 inches. So you're ---
JG: That's correct!
CO: So yours is just shy of 51 inches, right?
JG: Yeah, yeah. So I'm feeling pretty solid about this!
CO: OK, so how did you get it to stand up straight like that? I mean, is there a lot of superglue involved?
JG: Yeah, [chuckling] that's a good question. I won't recommend superglue, no. There is a product called "got2b Glued", which is kind of like the superglue for hair. It's pretty spectacular, but there's a lot that goes into it. My hairstylist, her name is Kay Jettmann, and she's a pro at this. You have to wash and dry the day before... or the day of, excuse me. She has to flat iron it. My hair's pretty curly, so she has to get it nice and straight first. And then she just rats it... or teases it, I should say, to get the base real secure because it's all about the base. And then from that point on, my mother or my wife usually stand on the ladders and hold it straight up real tight as she's, you know, kind of working her way up, teasing the hair and applying hairspray piece by piece by piece until it's solidified into place. [CO laughing] So it's a… it's a... you know, actually, it's pretty quick. It's about an hour. [chuckling]
CO: Well, the picture I've seen is it's straight up off the top of your head, right? [JG chuckles] So did... did your mom have to hold it up while it was being sprayed?
JG: Yeah, she's a very strong woman because it takes a while. And she literally has to pull it as hard as she can for that whole period. So, yeah, it's sticking straight up. [laughing] And the... the one that I did, it looks like I have an enormous cone sticking off my head. [CO laughs] The Tallest Mohawk Spike is literally a measurement from the scalp to the one longest strand of hair sticking out the top. My previous title for the Full Mohawk, that's different. That's that's more of a fan, as if I have a fan sticking out the top of my head. And that's, you know, a measurement from the front, the top, and the back of your head. So a couple of differences there.
CO: OK, so just this one spike, but I mean, you're a tall guy to begin with, right? So did you have to... did you have to get around with this 51 inches on top of your head?
JG: [laughing] You know, I'd say years ago, it was much easier to get her out. I'm six-one, and then... and now, you know, I have another 50 inches of hair sticking straight up he top of my head. So I'm a giant at that point. [CO chuckles] So, no, I don't go anywhere.
CO: So you didn't go out and about. You must have been tempted?
JG: I did. I actually went out kind of after the fact, [laughing] and it was a pretty windy day. [CO laugh] So, I mean, it looked like I was being carried around by a parachute, [CO laughs] but it was pretty funny. Cars would drive by and honk. I mean, you know, you always get attention with something as crazy as that. So, it was a good time! [chuckling]
CO: Is you spike down now?
JG: Yeah, oh yes, for sure, yup, yep. I can't function…. it's like I have another limb [CO chuckles] sticking out of my body somewhere if I... if I did wear it up in a mohawk all the time. So no, I kind of wear it Willie Nelson style. I have it in a couple of braids, and then I tie those up into knots just to go about my daily routines, so. [chuckling]
CO: How did you get it to come down? I mean, from... with all that... that teasing and... and the "got2b Glued"?
JG: Yeah, yeah, that's a wonderful question. And that's kind of the the dark side of this whole event because it's a painful process. [chuckling] I have to spend... it's a bottle of conditioner maybe, and at least a couple hours in the shower. It's relatively miserable by the time it's all said and done. But I always just like to stay positive and say it was all worth it when I was happening.
CO: [chuckling] Would you ever consider cutting it?
JG: Um, you know, people ask me that and I'm not sure why I always say no to that? [both chuckling] But I guess I just feel more comfortable with a mane, I suppose. But, you know, I'll say when it... when it hits the ground again, then… then it's probably going to cut it. But up to that, I kind of like the maintenance, you know? [chuckling]
CO: OK, now you have to wait to find out if it to be certified by the Guinness Book for your... for your spike. So are you planning your next extreme hair thing?
JG: Oh, boy! Nope, I'm not. You know, the two titles that exists, If I get both of those, then I'm... I'm more than happy. I'm honoured to have these titles, and I think I'll call it quits at that point. Unless, of course, somebody... somebody breaks me. And when that happens, then I might have to... might have to give it a go again.
CO: Well, anyway, I wish you luck, Joe. [both chuckling] And thanks for telling us about it.
JG: Thank you. No, it's good news is always fun, so I appreciate the opportunity to share that. Thank you.
CO: We do too. Thanks, bye.
JG: Bye-bye.
CH: Joe Grisamore is the world record holder for Tallest Full Mohawk and -- he hopes -- soon-to-be record-holder for Tallest Mohawk Spike. We reached him in Park Rapids, Minnesota. For more on this story -- including some photos -- visit our website at cbc.ca/aih.
[music: instrumental]
Swiss "Proof by Underpants"
CH: And, as the Swiss project's website puts it, "They eat the underpants with ravenous hunger." So -- wait, what? Oh, I've got my pages out of order here, sorry. Let me go back to the beginning. Just a sec. Okay. [clears throat] And now, the news in briefs. That's a weak start, whoever wrote this. Anyway, it goes on: "Scientists in Switzerland are joining soil scientists around the world in burying something under there. Ha ha, I just made you say 'underwear'. Which is what they're burying." Well, I'm sorry. This is obviously a first draft. It's terrible. I'm not reading any more of that. But it does make the point: Swiss scientists are, in fact, sending thousands of pairs of cotton underpants to volunteers who will bury them in their gardens. It's an experiment to determine soil health across the country. Switzerland's "Proof by Underpants" project is just the latest in a series of similar international projects. Canada's Soil Conservation Council launched its own a few years ago. With a grosser, and better project title.
[sc]
[music: Jaunty instrumental]
Speaker 6 So dig in and share your experiences with us and your social networks using: #soilyourundies. It's time to soil your undies in the name of soil conservation.
[/sc]
CH: [slight chuckle] How it works is: if you dig the underpants up after two months and they're full of holes, that's good. It means your soil contains lots of microorganisms. And -- and this is where we came in -- as the Swiss project's website puts it, "They eat the underpants with ravenous hunger." So try it out, if you're so inclined. The eyes may be the windows to the soul -- but the underpants are the windows to the soil.
[music: pop]
Part 2: Los Angeles Homeless Ruling, Tempest Storm Obit
Los Angeles Homeless Ruling
Guest: Daniel Conway
CH: Los Angeles will soon have to put roofs over the heads of its homeless residents. This week, a federal judge ruled that the city has until mid-October to find every person without a home in the city's Skid Row neighbourhood a permanent place to stay. And for women and children, that timeline is even shorter -- the city has just 90 days. In his ruling, Judge David O. Carter wrote: "All of the rhetoric, promises, plans, and budgeting cannot obscure the shameful reality of this crisis that year after year, there are more homeless Angelenos, and year after year, more homeless Angelenos die on the streets." The ruling is a response to a lawsuit against the city by a group of residents, activists, and community leaders called the L.A. Alliance for Human Rights. Daniel Conway is the group's policy adviser. We reached him in Sacramento.
CO: Daniel, what is it like to hear such a strong statement from that judge?
DANIEL CONWAY: I mean, I think it shows the deep thought that went into his ruling and it shows really that Los Angeles has an opportunity to transform the lives of tens of thousands of people, really.
CO: And do you think its.. its... the language was necessary? Or do you think people in Los Angeles need the kind of wake up call the judge seems to be giving?
DC: Judge Carter began his ruling with Abraham Lincoln, and the Civil War, and slavery. And he traced, you know, American history through segregation and redlining and discriminatory policies that kept African-Americans and other minorities out of certain neighbourhoods, all of which led to policies that resulted in, again, thousands of people being homeless on the streets of Los Angeles. And in particular, in Skid Row. So he gave a really powerful context that I think was helpful for all of us to hear. But I also think really validating for a lot of the activists and a lot of the people who, you know, have lived on Skid Row and been kind of making the point that, you know, when you have a city like Los Angeles where I believe like eight per cent of the population is African-American, but something like 40 per cent of the unhoused population is African-American, you obviously have a big problem there. And I think this 100-page ruling really highlights how we got here and why we need to do something radical to change the situation.
CO: The mayor of Los Angeles had already promised to spend one billion dollars this year to get people off the streets. So what was your alliance, the Alliance for Human Rights, trying to achieve by bringing this lawsuit to the federal judge?
DC: So we brought this lawsuit over a year ago in March. And frankly, we had spent several months before we filed the lawsuit meeting with city and county officials to say, hey, what we want to do is basically figure out how to use the courts to untie your hands, to let you do all of the grandiose things that you've told voters that you want to do to address this crisis, but have not been able to do for... for a variety of reasons. We want to basically bring this lawsuit as... as kind of a friendly mechanism to kind of let you guys do what you need to do. So from the beginning, we've been clear what our goal was, which was not to, you know, warehouse or arrest homeless people, not to necessarily make the politicians look bad, but to frankly acknowledge that... that what we've been doing hasn't worked. And we don't need to assign blame. We need to just radically rethink everything that we're doing about this situation. But frankly, you know, after a year, I think Judge Carter lost patience, and, you know, frankly, we lost patience. So that's kind of what led to... to our motion and ultimately, this injunction from Judge Carter.
CO: And now you have a court order that backs up what the... the city politicians had committed themselves to?
DC: Absolutely. I mean, I think from their perspective, they would like to be able to handle this themselves. And they think that, you know, we have a separation of powers here, and that this is their job. But I think, well, the judge clearly feels that they're not up to it, I mean, his order was a vote of no confidence. The reality is... is that all of the outreach workers and the social workers who... who implement these county programs and city programmes, essentially what they're doing is they're offering people a place on a waiting list for the most part. And that breeds a lot of skepticism and anger, I think, amongst the unhoused community. And frankly, it's the same for the housed community because they see billions of dollars getting spent, but they don't see anything getting better.
CO: Can you describe, if I were to visit, if we were to visit what's called Skid Row, that neighbourhood, what would we see?
DC: You know, it's a great question because I think people have an image of Los Angeles, right? Of, you know, the Hollywood sign and beaches and, you know, stars on the sidewalk. And I think the reality is, if you go to Los Angeles today, you would see tents on top of those same stars. You would see tents at those beaches. You would see tents in the parks. You would see tents downtown because you have a humanitarian crisis playing out in our public places. I mean, you've seen pictures of what refugee camps look like. It's taking that and putting it in one of the most modern cities on the planet. So, it's... it's heartbreaking and it really... it just doesn't make any sense. There's no justifying it. And the judge himself said in the order, like there's no defence of the indefensible. And that's that's really…. that's really where we stand.
CO: So you have these tents that are everywhere downtown in Los Angeles. You got… there's... I understand cardboard shelters. There's old RVss, plywood structures. It sounds like a shanty town?
DC: It really is. You see cars and RVs parked throughout the city, you know, in underpasses. And, you know, what you also see is you see violence committed towards people who are living unhoused, as well as housed people. You see fires, you see vandalism, you see all of these other effects of having thousands of people living outdoors.
CO: OK, so the city now has 90 days to find a place for every woman and child in that area, and then six months for everybody else. Is that a realistic timeline?
DC: I think it is, actually. I mean, and I partly say that because when you think about what we see with natural disasters in the U.S., whether it's a hurricane or a fire, you know, you see the federal government and state authorities come in and build miniature cities in a matter of days, right? And they're able to provide for people, right? And so I think, frankly, it is doable to do something of that scale in six months.
CO: You live this every day, but, you know, for people on the outside, California is a symbol of immense prosperity throughout the world. We think of all the billionaires who live there, and all the wealth, the opulence. What do you think the reality, this what you're describing, what do you think that looks like to the rest of the world?
DC: I think it's unfathomable, frankly, for California, for Silicon Valley, for Hollywood. You know, we're the future. And yet, we have 150-thousand people living and dying on the streets every day. There's really no explanation or excuse for it. And yet you hear lots of explanations and excuses for it. So I think it's time for some really catalytic changes here. And hopefully this lawsuit is just the beginning of that.
CO: Daniel, we'll be watching. Thank you.
DC: Thank you so much for your time, Carol.
CH: Daniel Conway is with the L.A. Alliance for Human Rights. He was in Sacramento.
[music: jazz]
Cargill Vaccine Drive On Hold
CH: Analee Coakley knows how badly meatpacking workers need vaccines. Dr. Coakley is a physician at Calgary's Mosaic Refugee Health Clinic. As we told you a couple of weeks ago, she's one of the people who've been helping organize a special vaccine drive at the Cargill Plant in High River, Alberta. That's the plant where 950 people tested positive for the coronavirus last spring. They were set to begin giving plant workers the Moderna vaccine this week. Then the company delayed deliveries, and now the program's been put on hold. Dr. Coakley told the CBC how she responded to the news.
[sc]
ANALEE COAKLEY: Well, I was very disappointed, of course. And yesterday, I think I passed through the various stages of grief. But it's a new day today, and I think I've landed on acceptance. And so today, the team will regroup and we'll plan for the clinic that will happen at some point in the future when Alberta Health obtains the vaccines.
DAVID GRAY: How many people have signed up to get the shot?
AC: From the last time I spoke to the nurses at Cargill, it was around 16-hundred workers had signed up for the vaccine, which is an incredible feat.
DG: You know, you and others worked so hard to get full buy-in amongst employees. Do they feel misled today?
AC: That's my worry, you know, that brake of trust where we say we're going to do something, especially when we say we're going to do something as the health system, we say we're going to do something and then we don't do it and we betray that trust. And so I'm quite concerned that that betrayal is going to lead to reduced uptake in the future. But betrayal of trust doesn't just live within the worker, but it could sort of, for lack of a better word, infect other, you know, their family members might also then become distrustful. And then, you know, families live in communities, and then entire communities could perhaps be more distrustful of the... of the health system. We have heard from some of the workers. I mean, one of the workers said you lied, which is, you know, like a gut punch. So, yes, so it's quite... it's you know, I feel... I feel horrible about the situation.
[/sc]
CH: That was Dr. Analee Coakley speaking to David Gray, host of "The Calgary Eyeopener", after a vaccination drive at the High River, Alberta Cargill meatpacking plant was put on hold.
[music: world music]
Tempest Storm Obit:
Guest: Nimisha Mukerji
CH: When Tempest Storm was 45, she told the Washington Post: "I'll put myself up against a 22-year-old any day ... and I'll tell you who's going to come out on top." And for decades later, the so-called "Last Queen of Burlesque" was still coming out on top. She made appearances into her eighties, after a career as one of the world's best-known burlesque dancers. Tempest Storm died this week. She was 93. Back in 1978, she told the CBC how she got her start.
[sc]
TEMPEST STORM: I met a gentleman where I was working as a cocktail waitress, and he said, you have a great figure. You should be in show business. I said, well, what type of show business? He said, well, why don't you become a stripper? It was very crude. I just said, oh, I'm from a very small town in Georgia. And I said, never! Me take off my clothes in front of all those people! Oh, that would be horrifying! And I was very insulted that he would suggest it. So he said… I said, no. He said, well, I know the woman at the Follies Theatre I can make an appointment for…. maybe you just starred in the chorus line. Maybe you go to Vegas and become a showgirl. So I said, well, it might be an idea. So I finally went down, and she hired me to go in the chorus line. I was working in a skit with the comedians, and then making 40 dollars a week, and which wasn't very much money. And she says, well, if you'll do it…. after about two weeks, she said, if you'll do a strip, I'll give you 60 dollars. We'll raise your salary to 60 dollars a week. So I said, I'll take it.
[/sc]
CH: Tempest Storm in 1978. Nimisha Mukerji is a Canadian filmmaker who spent years with Ms. Storm to make the documentary called "Tempest Storm." It premiered at Hot Docs in 2016. We reached Nimisha Mukerji in Toronto.
CO: Nimisha what do you make of that clip from your friend Tempest Storm?
NIMISHA MUKERJI: [chuckle] That tempest, all right. I mean, I met her quite a bit later than when that interview happened. But, you know, she always knew how to tell a great story, tell it fast, and hit that punchline. [laughing]
CO: What was it that made her the queen of burlesque?
NM: You know, I think she had found her purpose. And I think that everyone who met her or saw her, you know, had the... the privilege of seeing her perform, knew it. You know. she was 100 per cent about spreading joy, having fun. And she loved being on stage. She lived for her audiences.
CO: But she said in that clip that she was very shy of taking off her clothes in front of people coming from a small town. How did she go from that to, I guess, well, being the queen of burlesque, and clearly enjoying it tremendously?
NM: You know, it's a very interesting question because when I met her, she... that's what struck me as well, that she was so incredibly shy, and she didn't seem to seek out the spotlight in that way. Even in the film, she didn't you know, she didn't seek out a documentary being made about her life. But how she described it to me was that, you know, that something came over her when she was on stage, and she became... she said like another person. But I think that the person within her would come out on stage, and she was... she was happy. And there was no fear. You know, there was no fear involved in it. She was... when she stepped out on that stage, she owned it. And I think she was her best self,
CO: She said in an interview in 1969. She said that she had never taken off all her clothes because it was not only immoral, and illegal, I believe, at that time. Not only immoral, but she said it was boring. [NM laughs] And that something... something had to be left to the imagination.
NM: Well, it's the art of tease. And I think she was a master at that. And for her, it was, you know, about the journey to get there, not, you know, just stripping. You know, there's nothing... there's nothing wrong with that. But for her, it was about the dance of it, the music, the performance, the engagement with the audience, telling a story. She was a performer, so.
CO: What was she wearing? Just maybe describe what she stripped?
NM: Oh, her costumes were incredible! And she was... often would recall how sad she was that they would get stolen. I mean, she put a lot of effort into these. You know, it was like rhinestone jewels on the thongs, on the bra. She would have some sort of elegant, sort of, you know, robe that was sheer so you could kind of get glimpses, but you couldn't quite see what was underneath. You know, the heels. I mean, she would still have been wearing heels when we were filming if she was allowed to. After she broke her hip, she was... kind of had to rethink that a little bit.
CO: Did it not begin with a mink coat?
NM: She did have a mink coat [laughing] in some of her performances. I think her performances evolved also like throughout her career. But some of the performances I saw later on, you would see more. But I think that she did... she did tell me a story about a mink coat that Mickey Rooney gave her, and that also got lost somehow. [laughing]
CO: she was said to... in the 1950s, she was apparently making 100-thousand dollars a year, which is a very big chunk of change in the 50s. It's said that she once caused a stampede of male students at the University of Colorado. She was said... she had romances with Elvis, with John F. Kennedy. What did she tell you about all these parts of her life when you talked to her?
NM: You know, it was the perfect person to have be in a film. You know, as a director, having an interview subject like that, I mean, her whole life from the very beginning, you know, from humble beginnings in eastern Georgia. And she was 100 per cent self-made. But, of course, there were these sort of celebrities that she had, you know, relationships with. And she was very hesitant to give too many details about them. And I often to my producing partner, Kaitlyn Reghr, and cinematographer, Lindsay George, we would talk about Tempus as like a secret keeper. I think she never sought that out as the reason for her being her own fame. You know, she was known in her own right as... as a performer. And so I think she was, you know, she would recall these memories, and it would bring her a lot of joy. And, you know, especially Elvis, which was one of the ones where she actually, you know, there was the photo, and Elvis had acknowledged the relationship publicly, which was great, too. I mean, when she talked about Elvis, she said she taught him everything he knew. [CO laughs] She was older than he was. She was 27. He was 22.
CO: You drew her out on some other parts of her life that she didn't talk about very much. Can you tell us a bit about her personal life?
NM: Yeah, I think that, you know, what interested me about Tempest was she came out of, you know, she was born in 1928. She was a self-made, enormously successful woman in her field. And she also... there was a cost to that. It took time. You know, she had alluded to the fact that she had regrets in her life. And then, you know, through the years of interviewing her, more and more sort of came out about the estrangement from her daughter, which she really regretted. You know, her divorce from her husband, Herb Jeffries. But she was able, through the… in the last 10 years of her life, really to reckon with that. She had a list of things she wanted to revisit and to look at. And we were, you know, lucky enough to see her go through that process. And sometimes it worked out, and sometimes it didn't. But I think, in the end of the day, she felt that she had tried her best.
CO: What did you think of your film? I know she sat beside you at the premiere.
NM: [laughing] Yeah, I mean, it was quite nerve-wracking because we, you know, Kaitlyn and I had decided that we would show her the film, you know, at its premiere at Hot Docs. And I was next to her for the entire film. When the credits started rolling, you know, she turned to me, and she smiled, and she said, you did good. [chuckling] And... and after that, it was just sort of like we were off to the races. We were able to sort of, you know, unleash the film on the world together. And we made the film together. So that was, you know, something I really... I really value.
CO: I understand she gave you some advice?
NM: She did. She said, you know, your own worth, and she really meant it. I think as a woman, as a female director, you know, I think she... she would see me and she would say, you can't ask for permission. You know, you have to just go do what you want to do. And she was right. It's words of wisdom I carry with me.
CO: Nimisha, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. And I appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.
NM: Thank you so much for having me on.
CH: That was Canadian filmmaker Nimisha Mukerji in Toronto. And if you'd like to see photos of Tempest Storm at that premiere, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.
[music: elevator music]
NB Goosey Loosey
CH: George Pattison is used to encountering geese at his New Brunswick cottage. But he's unaccustomed to the kind of encounter he recently had with one goose, in particular -- an apparently besotted bird now known as Goosey Lucy. Mr. Pattison met Lucy while doing some yard work. And as he and his wife Lisa explained to CBC, the bird seemed prone to flights of fancy.
[sc]
GEORGE PATTISON: Well, we were out doing some spring work at the lake. And I was probably 400 feet from the lake. It's not uncommon for us to have geese down on the shore. But I was just there sort of minding my own business, and just raking. And I don't know, maybe there was a sound associated with the raking because there was a lot of rock that you're tinkling over. But anyway, after a while, I just looked over my shoulder, and I saw this solitary, you know, goose walking up towards me, and getting closer and closer. So I put the rake between me and the goose just to, you know, to ward it off or to, you know, in case it had, you know, an intention of attacking me or something. And we just sort of watched each other for probably five or ten minutes. And then it kind of moved away over to the side where the rake wasn't between us. So I moved the rake between us again just to keep it at bay. And then I thought, well, I'm going to get back to work. So I just very carefully started going back to raking aND things. And then that started what was probably six or seven hours together.
TERRY SEGUIN: Lisa, what did you think was going on?
LISA PATTISON: I was amazed. I thought it's picked you for its mate! [everyone laughs] This is --
TS: Another woman after your man!
LP: [chuckling] But it really it... it... it let other people be around. Eventually, I came out, and we had some workmen there, and didn't mind. Nothing fazed it. But it only wanted to be near George. It stayed like within three feet of him, if it could. And he walked faster. And he eventually just went about his day and went up to the garage, which is 300 feet away, and the goose waddled after him. [TS chuckles] and it stayed by his side the whole time.
TS: Were you Googling at any point trying to figure out what was going on?
LP: I did Google. I Googled imprinting, and geese choosing adults. Like I did all those. And I couldn't find any situation where an adult goose bonded with an adult person, like with a person. It happens often when they're babies, but not, you know, not as an adult. So I've been searching and couldn't find anything. But it really... like, I couldn't capture it in the video and the... and the pictures, just how much you could see it loved him. [TS and LP laugh] It was just amazing. To me, it was just love. And George was oblivious because I look at them like that all the the day. [TS laughs awkwardly] He didn't think anything of it. But it was amazing, to me, the connection that it felt.
[/sc]
CH: George and Lisa Pattison, sharing the story of Goosey Lucy with CBC New Brunswick's Terry Seguin. The couple says when they eventually left their cottage, they tried to sneak away without ruffling Lucy's feathers, but she followed their car until it was out of sight.
[music: jazzy guitar riff]
Part 3: Encore: Horizon Feature
Encore: Horizon feature:
CH: Today is Earth Day, which is a perfect opportunity for us to listen to the wisdom of the late Barry Lopez. As a child, Mr. Lopez longed to explore places unknown to him. He said one of his earliest memories was of wading into the ocean until the water was right under his chin. He was three years old and he couldn't swim, but he still wanted to go further past the rocks and islands all the way to the horizon. Barry Lopez never lost that longing, so he turned it into a career. For 50 years, he travelled the world and recorded what he saw. His work earned him a reputation as a humanitarian and an environmentalist. It also earned him the National Book Award for his 1986 book, "Arctic Dreams". Two years ago, Barry Lopez published "Horizon". It's about what it's like to witness the effects of a changing climate from the Arctic to the Antarctic. And its observations are grim, he says. We're past the point of adaptation, but he does offer lessons on how he might prevent our own extinction, starting with appreciating aspects of the world around us that were not made by human beings. This is an encore presentation of Carol's feature interview with Barry Lopez from the "As It Happens" studio in April 2019.
CO: Barry Lopez welcome to As It Happens.
BARRY LOPEZ: Thank you Carol. I'm very glad to be here.
CO: I'm glad you could be in our studio. And I want to begin where you begin which is this --well you talk about boys swimming in the Pacific Ocean, yourself and your grandson. But you yourself -- you describe this moment: you're three years old, you're up to your neck in the ocean, and there's something about that moment that tells you that you are going to be pursuing that horizon. What is it at that moment do you think that connects with you?
BL: I don't know what I understood as a 3-year-old. You know you're always colonizing the past by going into your own history and thinking this must be how it was, and your mother will tell you that wasn't how it was at all. [Chuckles] I think it's accurate to say that I felt a profound yearning when I was a child to get out of my own given place in the culture to which I was born. I didn't wake up to it though until I'd finished university. And I thought well now wait a minute -- I am thinking of myself as a well-educated man in 20th century America. But clearly I'm not. Why? Because I went to school only with men and I went to school people almost all of whom were white and Christian and raised with a certain set of middle class values. So when I graduated from university I thought I really need an education. And so that's what I did. A lot of my motivation for travel was to see the bigger world and understand why I wanted to periodically bury myself in it.
CO: But when you describe that you grew up in a world that was of men -- white men -- and had the same religion, same values, probably same everything. Many people if not most find a comfort in being within the familiar, of being with likeminded people. You never have obviously. You seem to feel more most comfortable in the unfamiliar. Why is that?
BL: Because the complacency that develops in you as a person when you stay in your own culture I think is generated by fear and the intuitive knowledge that something big and bad is coming. And if you're limited to the ideas that define your own culture, you're not going to be well-prepared. And as we move into this period of global awareness, I don't think it's that unusual for someone to be thinking: what do other cultures think about the approach of the truly threatening things? The visible ones are global climate change or ocean acidification -- the usual list of coming disasters. But I know I am living in a highly destabilized Western culture in the United States. And the proof of it is the erratic and incompetent president of my country. This is not somebody who's prepared at all for the kind of changes that are coming which you know intellectuals might called demographics. And he's not empathetic. He's not educated. And those are signs that when the trouble comes this is not the person that will be helping us at all.
CO: But to put it -- I mean all of this being the case at the same time, he's not alone in that. I mean he's...
BL: No. Go to Brazil, go to Hungary, go to Israel -- in so many places we see the same thing: "I know. Follow me." And when you look at the foundational cultures out of which modern humanity comes, all of those cultures take a different approach. The most important thing is not progress...it's stability. And you don't find those in these charismatic 'I know. Follow me' personalities. What you find are grownups. And I remember a man once defined when I asked him, what is a grown up? He said it's someone who no longer needs to be supervised -- who understands the responsibility of an older generation to a younger generation and understands why you take care of your parents. So those aren't attractive pursuits I think in cultural West. We all seem to be so lost, and desperately looking for the hero who will guide us out. And that's just never going to happen.
CO: In your book Horizon -- it is a beautiful cover. But inside -- the book is full of wonderful maps and charts and images. But there's only one really image of the kind that's on the inside and the back side cover which is a picture, a painting, that is so striking. And maybe if you can describe what it is and why that was I guess the symbol of what you're trying to do in this book?
BL: Well you know I pay a lot of attention to readers because I see myself as an intermediary that's been to all of these countries and traveled to all of these places and met all of these people. And I don't think it has any value -- social value -- unless what comes out of it benefits the reader. If a reader can become immersed in a place that you've been to and you can just back out of the picture, I think that's the best thing. So it was a reader who sent this image that we're talking about -- Nicholas Rowe Rich's painting called "Remember." And far off on the right is what is apparently a mother and a daughter outside their house at the foot of the Himalayas and all the way over on the left is a man on a horse looking back to them. That moment of departure and his title "Remember" says to me whenever you leave remember where you came from, remember your people, remember what you mean by your life. So I said to my editor you know I know we're not going to go into colour printing for the book, but do you think we can do something with this image that was sent to me as a postcard by a reader I had never met. But when I got that card, I pinned it above my desk and I thought I know this is telling me something I need to know as I begin work on this book.
CO: And for you -- I mean because this image, this man at way end of the painting of the picture, he is looking back. But his horse is pointing in the other direction. He's going. He's out of here. He might be saying sayonara. But he's leaving. You have been doing that for decades now. Do you see yourself as that man? Do you look back and say I have to remember where I have come from?
BL: I do all the time. And it's not just remembering where you come from, it's a more complex thought which is the man on the horse knows that he's leaving everything that defines him. And going off to an undefined place and has to ask himself: Why are you doing this? Are you just running away from the real centre of your life? Or are you going to bring something back that will help us? And the answer to it is that I care -- this will sound grandiose -- but I care what happens to us, I care what happens to my children and my grandchildren and my extended family, I care what happens to you and to other people in our world of communication and writing and radio and whatnot, and I want to be sure we're going to be okay. And I think all of us at some level are profoundly worried about our families and ourselves and how we're going to take care of each other because the world that is coming will challenge us more than humanity has ever been challenged.
CO: I'm speaking with Barry Lopez. He's here in the studio with me. And you are listening to As It Happens. We are speaking to Barry about his new book: Horizon. Which is an extraordinary span of time and place. And it covers many parts of the world -- and I want to talk about it because this is of course the substance of the book, the travels and what you learn there. Let's take you to 2012, you're on the Canadian Arctic, you have visited many times before. And you wrote about it in Arctic Dreams. But here you are in a boat and you are about to enter Peel Sound. And you are with another couple, it's very early in the morning, you have steaming mugs of coffee, and you're about to enter, and you suddenly with absolutely ice in your veins realize that there's something seriously wrong here. What did you see?
BL: Well I had come up on the deck with the expectation that of course in the middle of summer up north is going to be light all the time. But I wanted to start my day in my imagination right by having my coffee and looking for birds. And this older couple that was there with me that I saw every morning weren't sipping their coffee and they didn't have their binoculars up. And I thought well why is that? And then I looked and I have read a lot of Arctic history and as I processed the ideas from the sleepyhead trying to wake up with my coffee I thought oh my God there's no history of going into Peel Sound without an icebreaker escort because there's no open water here. And all I could see was open water.
CO: But this is you know 2012 -- you're very aware of the effects of climate change, you are seeing the environment everywhere in the world, you're traveling you know this is happening. And so why was this particular moment so astonishing for you? I mean was it just one of those moments when you suddenly in a kind of negative way when you realize that this is what it means?
BL: It's a difference between being intellectually aware of a condition and then feeling it as an emotional blow. "Oh my god is it ever real. And it's right here in front of me." And I think that's one reason I travel as much as I do. I want to feel it in my body. If you don't travel or regularly look at newspapers from other countries you can fall into this trap of thinking well it's going to be okay -- we will be alright. And when you're traveling in sub-Saharan Africa you're thinking it would be better for people born here to be given a death certificate rather than a birth certificate because there's nothing there for them. And I don't think any of us can appreciate the scale on which humanity is running away from home for ecological reasons, for economic reasons, to avoid war. There are millions of people running to someplace else to be safe -- and look at the situation which of course Mr. Trump has turned into something of an idiot's joke, but there is plight in Central America and there people are looking for some place they've been led to believe is going to be safe for them and not only can they not get there but they are greeted by xenophobes and racists. So how are they going to explain that to their children? They can't. So if you get away from the comfort zone you at least have a chance to see what the bigger thing looks like. And I think what I was trying to do in Horizon is say things are not really good for humanity in this moment, and then supply the things that allow you to escape the confrontation for long enough to make up your own mind about what you can face and how are you going to take care of your family.
CO: And I think at one point you say that we are past the point of adapt or die -- and now it has become absolutely imperative that we must cooperate with one another or die.
BL: That's right.
CO: And that's the hope you're offering? Is it that possibility of getting out of the mess we're in?
BL: Yes. And I say that because too many of us think of the mess that we're in as something that can be solved by industrial science or by elected governments. And now we see that that is not the case and will never be the case. The only way people will survive is by taking care of each other. And you can say 'well Barry that's really naive. You know the forms of government we have are all we have.' And my answer to that is no. It is not to turn your back on your own country or your own culture -- it's to realize that the indifference of methane gas pouring out of the tundra now, it's not interested in nation states and these other things that we look to for survival. It's absolutely indifferent to human survival. And everything I look at when I travel says take care of those who you are with and if you can take care of people you've never met.
CO: See the other as your own.
BL: Yes.
CO: I'm speaking with Barry Lopez. And he's in the studio with me here talking about his latest book: Horizon. And you're listening to As It Happens. You features six regions in this book and I want to concentrate on two of them.
BL: Yes.
CO: Antarctica and the Galapagos Islands. You couldn't think of two more different places -- one) the Galapagos being so fecund and rich -- just life everywhere. And Antarctica, where there is no visible life, and places you actually saw where there hasn't been even a drop of rain ever in all the history of the planet. Just starting first of all with Antarctica, what is it about that landscape that draws you in?
BL: I loved the opportunity of it. And what I would tell you about my travel to Antarctica I guess is that I move almost entirely by intuition. I don't have a set of questions or something I'm trying to find. And of course if you travel like that you constantly lose your way but you also find situations that are not consciously defined for you but once you're in the middle of them you say 'oh I get why I always wanted to come here.' And that was the feeling I had in every trip I made to Antarctica.
CO: One place you make a special trek because we should point out you have purpose when you go there -- you were helping a scientific mission to look for meteorites. At the time you were with a team of divers looking for ocean life into the ice shelf which is a fascinating story and must've been very cold. And Vanda Station -- you were doing research there. But then there was another trek you took -- this really extraordinary thing you decided you had to get to Cape Crozier on a snowmobile which was life challenging. And you met with a group of people. That moment when you describe it, it was seemed to have been life altering for you when you got there. Why is that?
BL: It was. Because you know a group of six of us left McMurdo base -- the American base on Ross Island -- and made this trip that was famous. Became famous in a book by Cherry-Garrard called "The Worst Journey in the World." And I said to my colleagues all of whom were -- we'd all been in Antarctica over a period of years -- and I said you know if we do it in summer it won't be the worst journey in the world, and the prize will be to go to Cape Crozier and watch these penguins. I just knew it intuitively. And we got there and the birds kicked language out of all of us. We just almost fell to the ground in silence and bathed in the reality of these indefatigable birds taking care of their young. The image was, over the period of time that we sat there, it was like sitting through a symphony. And it made us all feel alive. It made us want to touch each other, to show tenderness toward each other. Sure we were doing something and it was bloody cold and all the rest of it, but we felt awakened to our purpose in life. And we all in our different ways thought I want to bring this home.
CO: But when you talk about how people need to be out of their comfort zone -- they're drinking each other's bathwater usually where they are, they are reading newspapers that reinforce all their views, and you have to go out and have turn inside out to see the world with fresh eyes. If you could take everybody one-by-one to Cape Crozier just for a moment do you think the world would be a different place?
BL: If you could do something that impossible, yes I do. The part that seems to be missing in modern culture is to get out of the self is to get out of the world where everything was made by human beings and understand what is my place in the enormous expression of beautiful life which was there with those penguins in Cape Crozier.
CO: Barry Lopez is with me in the As It Happens studio. And we are talking about this new book: Horizon. You speak about the explorers like Captain Cook for instance -- James Cook -- without whom you couldn't be doing what you're doing. These were people, explorers, that were out there without knowing where they were going. I mean they didn't even know where the next -- if this was an island or a massive continent. They were making these maps. And James Cook was the most amazing cartographer and filled in the blanks of our time. But you know those explorers were the ones that opened up these horizons for those who went and exploited and conquered and killed and destroyed everything to get the gold or the silver they wanted and colonise these people and killed them in large numbers and altered everything about them. How can you feel so positive about those who created the environment...
BL: Throughout the book there is a condemnation of exploitive discovery. But resentment is a kind of argument with reality. In this sense here is where we are and you know as the book opens in that chapter in Cape Foulweather where I'm trying to line out some of the themes of the book. I'm trying to encourage people to not spend all of their energy condemning the past. You have to own that past before you can imagine a viable future. So if (James) Cook or the others conquistadores did damage, that was their era. It's not our era. And we condemn it and we see the deep damage that it has done. Our object I think at the moment is to condemn the damage that their rightful heirs are creating, people like Putin for example. If we condemn that and find the best among us to imagine a radically different way of creating a different world in which to live I think we'll be alright.
CO: You know you said that you are very careful never to take things away from where you are. You leave things. You don't take souvenirs -- not even if it's a rock or something. You're very very conscious of that. A few times you have I think -- you given a half dozen examples. But you never do that. But you do take something away, don't you? You take away your impressions and then you craft those impressions into really extraordinary prose that draw people into the stories and then guess what? They go to look at the places you've gone to. And you have seen that all the tourism that ends up -- people showing up in large numbers all wearing the same jacket [laughter] and you know just "Hey. Where do I go to see where Barry said this in the book?" And very very destructive force in many cases. So what responsibility do you feel for that?
BL: I never used to think about it and now I think about it all the time. If I describe a place and try to elevate it in prose, it's like an invitation to people to come and see it for themselves. I don't want that to happen. And I've been conflicted for years about how ethically responsible is it of me to create enough confusion in a beautiful evocation of a place so that people would never be able to find it.
CO: I don't have time to ask you as much about the Galapagos as I would like to but one thing it does that part of the book does return to is your love of the Pacific Ocean -- as more than just a beautiful place but something just out of this world, something other worldly that you can't even fathom literally how deep and wide and extraordinary it is. What is it about the Pacific especially there when you're on the Galapagos Islands which would be such an extraordinary place to be in itself -- but looking at that ocean, and its sighing and heaving. What does it say to you?
BL: Well I'm just going to give you the answer that popped into my mind but what it says is, life is very dangerous, you'll be okay. I remember when my mother was dying of cancer in 1976 I brought her the first book that I published and I wanted her to have it. Although she was right at the end of her life in hospital. And so I handed her the book and explained what it was. She took it in her hands and turned it like an object. And then she rolled it over. I don't know if she was reading anything on the back of the book but it was an object and she wanted to get the feel of it. And then she hugged it to her chest and just held it there. And I'm standing right next to her. And then with her right hand she put her hand on my left forearm and said, "You'll be okay now." So that is what I think the ocean was saying to me that I am incomprehensible, I am vast and beyond your understanding and I'm going to show you as a little boy part of what I am and that is this Portuguese man o' war that's going to wrap itself around your little legs and make you very sick and very afraid and in great pain. But that's part of what I am. And the other part of me is going to reflect light into your face in ways that make you almost breathless with the beauty of what I do. But I am unknown and I will remain unknown. And part of what was attractive to me about James Cook is he got that. He understood that you're sailing across a mystery, don't make the mistake of reading a book while it's going on.
CO: You were writing Horizon at a time when you were facing your own mortality. And I know you've spoken elsewhere about it so I can ask you about the cancer that you were dealing with. How did that change the way you wrote the book? How did it change your views?
BL: I think that the diagnosis of terminal cancer made me feel more deeply tenderness toward other people and toward the world. It opened me up to be tender, be gentle, be kind to people. Everybody is going through something difficult and you must support and embrace them and be kind and not try to tell them what to do or own them. Just be gentle with them. So it turned out for me that that diagnosis was the kind of support I wanted when I sat down to write what I wrote in Horizon.
CO: And Horizon is one of those books that will change how people see things. And so whatever it is the journey you went through internally and externally to get to write this book it is taking people on that journey as well. Barry Lopez it's been a great pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you.
BL: Thank you for making room for me.
CH: That was Barry Lopez speaking with Carol in April 2019 about his book "Horizon". Mr. Lopez died on Christmas Day last year. He was 75. For more on this story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.