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The AIH Transcript for February 12, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Dead reckoning. British Columbia's chief coroner reveals that a record number of people died of drug overdoses in the province in 2020. And a mother who lost her son hopes that frightening toll will lead to action.

CH: Haven becomes hell. Her mother was one of 38 people to die in horrific conditions at a long term care home in Quebec last spring. And our guest has high hopes but low expectations for an imminent coroner's enquiry.

CO: When things get defective, you have to defect. A group of former Republicans has started talking about a new political party, but their resistance to Donald Trump is facing resistance amongst some in the GOP.

CH: Toxic relationship. Years after a public meltdown by Britney Spears made mocking headlines and led to her father getting control over her life -- a new documentary has led to an overdue reconsideration of how she was treated with.

CO: Contempt of court. Because of new COVID restrictions tennis fans at the Australian Open were forced to leave the middle of a match, and there is no love lost between the crowd and the umpire.

CH: And taking the bull by the horns. It's Chinese New Year, and for Vancouver's Chinatown welcoming the Year of the Ox during the pandemic means setting ox-example by ox-perimenting with new ways of creating ox-citement. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that just hopes no one's having an ox-istential crisis.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Why this Trump critic hosted a meeting about launching a new party for Republicans

British Columbia Overdose Stats

Guest: Lisa Lapointe

CH: There are two public health emergencies in British Columbia right now. And last year a terrible new record was set for the province's overdose epidemic. Yesterday, the province's chief coroner, Lisa Lapointe, announced that 1716 people had died of drug overdoses in B.C. in 2020. That's a 74 percent increase from 2019. During her press conference, Dr. Lapointe spoke about the victims with some of their pictures on a TV screen beside her.

LISA LAPOINTE: In April of this year, B.C. will have been in a toxic drug public health emergency for five years. In that time, we will have lost almost 7000 people to toxic drugs. With my thanks to Moms Stop The Harm, these photos show the faces of just a small number of those that we have lost. These are sons, brothers, fathers, daughters, sisters, friends and colleagues. Thousands of years of life and potential are gone. We must turn this terrible trajectory around.

CH: Leslie McBain was with the coroner yesterday when she spoke. Ms. McBain is the co-founder of Moms Stop The Harm. She lost her son to a drug overdose in 2014. We reached Leslie McBain on Pender Island, British Columbia.

CO: Leslie what was going through your mind as you stood by the coroner yesterday and heard those numbers read out loud?

LESLIE MCBAIN: Well, of course, I was heartbroken. The numbers are insane. It's just so many lives lost, so much potential lost, and so many families and friends and colleagues just plunged into grief and particularly families plunged into lifelong grief. On the other hand, too, I thought this is so stark, this is so exceptional that maybe now people will start to listen and people will start to act, and lose their stigma, and talk to their politicians and so on.

CO: In this report, we hear that in 2020, it was the worst year in terms of lives lost to the effects of toxic illicit drugs. And that more lives lost now than those of motor vehicle crashes, homicides, suicides and prescription drug related deaths combined. Do you think that it will make a difference? Do you think that now -- it's not just that people understand it -- but it will bring the change that you have been advocating for?

LM: I think these numbers are so shocking that we who advocate for better drug policy -- I can speak for myself and my organisation, the organisation, we're really angry. I mean, we've been angry for a long time that so little has moved in all levels of government. And I think certainly for myself, my advocacy is, I'm ramping it up. I'm not afraid to say the hard things anymore. I mean, this is life or death. And I feel, today, energised in the fight to bring better drug policy to the province.

CO: The principal thing that Vancouver and the province are both asking is to have simple possession of illicit drugs decriminalised. What difference do you think that will make if Ottawa would agree to that?

LM: Again, it's a progressive step, but it is not going to stop the deaths. The only thing that will stop the toxic drug deaths is a clean, safe, regulated and legal supply of drugs that people who have substance use disorder or addiction can access. Decriminalisation helps lower the stigma for people who use drugs. It helps them not to be afraid. They already have to buy their drugs in an illicit, and dangerous way, and then get their drugs to wherever it is they're going to use them. And the way it stands now, they could be arrested on the way home. So the whole thing is just crazy. And decriminalisation will at least take that part out of the dangerous mix. And I hope also that because of the loss -- stigma going down around drug use, that people who are using drugs and who want treatment or help would be less afraid to come forward.

CO: In 2014, as you know, your son, Jordan -- he was 25 years old, when he died of an overdose. And you have spoken generously about what happened, the story of that in the hope that it helps others. What help do you wish he had had? What would have made a difference?

LM: Oh yes. What would have made a difference is if our family doctor had understood and had compassion for the fact that Jordan was addicted in particular to oxycodone that had been prescribed by our family doctor. But when he realised that Jordan was addicted, he essentially fired Jordan as a patient. We went on then to find a detox facility and we did find one and Jordan went to it. But after detox, there was no support. We couldn't find counselling. We couldn't find groups. Detox is only usually 12 or 14 days -- that's not going to solve the problem. So what we needed was a continuum of care and it wasn't available then and it's not available now. These seven years later, we've made so little progress. So Jordan relapsed and he went to several walk-in clinics and was able to get enough drugs that he actually took the wrong combination of drugs one day and it stopped his heart. So support was and is critical. It would have been the critical factor there. He had me, but I didn't know very much so.

CO: But he had you and you knew what he was going through -- a lot of young people, they don't have anyone like you, parents who are trying to help. But even with your love and your attention and your knowledge and him turning to you, there was just nothing you could do. That's the frustrating part of this, isn't it?

LM: It is. People who are addicted aren't just one kind or don't have one kind of addiction or addiction doesn't look the same for everyone. So that's why we need this, again, a compendium of care. If someone wants to be in an outpatient situation, they should have that option. If they want a bed inpatient, then it should be regulated and it should be professional and compassionate. Or if they just want the safe drugs until they can stabilise, they should have that. I always say it's the only condition that we have in our system wherein people are not getting what they need.

CO: What was Jordan like?

LM: Jordan was...you hear this so often and I don't know why it's these kids that end up taking drugs. But he was the life of the party. He was very funny. His humour was probably his best attribute. And he always had a lot of friends. He was very supportive of his friends. He loved animals. He was a great skateboarder, risk-taker. He made it through school without much work. He had his own business at age, I think, it was about 21: chimney sweep and wood stove installer for which he had a certificate. So he was on his way to, I think, a successful life. But he got caught in the drugs.

CO: What do you hope you can accomplish by telling Jordan's story?

LM: That's a good question. I just want parents who are in the situation of having a child or a loved one struggling to keep them close. We and with Moms Stop The Harm, we do not believe in rock bottom. We do not believe in tough love. We believe the best way we can support our children is to hold them close, to give them that landing place when they need it. And it's not easy. And sometimes it even might be dangerous. And we always say safety first. But kids who are struggling with drugs are not fun. You know, it's work. It's hard work. So we just just want parents to know if they're in that situation, it's the hardest job they'll ever do. But they're not alone, they need to know that this is a problem that maybe can be solved, but just to keep their kids close. They still love that person that's inside there, and just to keep that in mind.

CO: Leslie, I appreciate your generosity in sharing your story and your son's story, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LM: Thank you so much Carol.

CH: Leslie McBain is a co-founder of Moms Stop The Harm. She was on Pender Island, B.C.

[Music: Calm Music]

Republicans: New Party

Guest: Evan McMullin

CH: It's very likely that Donald Trump will soon be acquitted in his second impeachment trial. Two days of sometimes horrifying evidence from Democrats in Congress are expected to do little to convince Republican senators to vote against their former president. And today, Mr. Trump's lawyers gave their defence.

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN: The article of impeachment now before the Senate is an unjust and blatantly unconstitutional act of political vengeance. This appalling abuse of the Constitution only further divides our nation when we should be trying to come together around shared priorities. Like every other politically motivated witch hunt the left has engaged in over the past four years, this impeachment is completely divorced from the facts, the evidence, and the interests of the American people. The Senate should promptly and decisively vote to reject it.

CH: That was lawyer Michael van der Veen speaking at Donald Trump's impeachment trial earlier today. Against this dispiriting backdrop, some Republican officials are having conversations about creating a new party or faction. Last Friday, Evan McMullin, co-hosted a Zoom called to discuss the possibilities. He's the former chief policy director for the House Republican Conference. We reached him in D.C..

CO: Evan, what did all the people who joined in on the Zoom call last week -- what did they have in common?

EVAN MCMULLIN: The most important thing they had in common, I think, were a commitment to American democracy, a commitment to founding ideals, namely, that we are all created equal and free and a commitment to truth. And then beyond that, those things also created additional common ground, which is the need for something new, whether it be inside the Republican Party or outside of it, either to change the course of the Republican Party or to compete with it directly.

CO: Right. But this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for Donald Trump, right, this is a retreat from the Trump Republicanism. Is that the case?

EM: It is. I will note that we had people -- first of all, we had over 120 of the most well-known, principled Republican political and intellectual leaders in the country. These are people who are well known to Americans and beyond our borders, in many cases. And they are all realising or they have realised, some of them for years -- I mean, some of them never were on board with Trump, always opposed him, always wanted a new direction for the party, at least under his leadership, if not before. But we also had people who had supported Trump in the past, actually, and that represents a significant development. We had people who had worked in his administration, people who had voted for him in the past -- though they had taken different paths to this point, all were in the same place, committed to those things and wanting a new direction. So that's what we discussed.

CO: This new direction -- I mean, the principled conservatism is the platform, but the direction for you and others is to develop another party. Is that right?

EM: Well, we had that discussion. I mean, this wasn't intended to be a public event. It became public. And it's not entirely surprising, but that wasn't our intention. This was a first conversation in an organised way that was designed to actually take some steps forward as well. But it was a starting point. And so since our meeting on last Friday, discussions have only intensified about what steps we'll take next. And we did poll people during the event and we did a straw poll and we asked everyone to indicate whether, amongst other things, they thought we should start a new party or a new faction. 40 percent of the attendees thought we should start right away with a new party. And to be clear, these are not political neophytes. These are people who have decades of experience, many of them leading political campaigns and parties, state and nationally in America. But then 43 percent thought that we should start with a faction. And amongst the faction people, they were exactly evenly divided between those who thought the factions should operate exclusively inside the GOP and those who thought it should be more independent. And what that means is that it would largely work inside the GOP, try to advance its own candidates through the Republican primaries. But they would also support viable independents, and when necessary, support unifying Democrats being challenged in general elections by extremist Republicans.

CO: But isn't this kind of backward, I mean, the sort of gathering everybody up to leave one person's influence in the party? Isn't it better to try and get that one person out? I mean, shouldn't Donald Trump be the one who's leaving and not all of you?

EM: Well, certainly that would be our preference, right. But I don't think it's fair to say that he is alone. I mean, most of the party supports him. Most of the party wants to continue with him in its leadership. And so that's the challenge. I mean, look, those of us who have called for a new direction for the party under Trump's entire tenure, we got used to fighting with 10 to 15 percent of the party and then the rest of the party was unified behind Trump. Now, after the January 6th insurrection, which was, of course, a very dark day for our country, depending on which poll you look at, 25 to 33 percent, so a fourth to a third of the party, desires a new direction. So for us, that represents an advancement of positive progress. But it's still not enough to single handedly immediately change the direction of the party. And so it's not just Trump, it's that he has a strong base of support in the party. It's getting smaller. But we still have some work to do. And whether we can do it inside or outside of the party is a question.

CO: During the Trump years, the Republicans had control of the Senate, you had control of the White House. And now the idea that somehow you might splinter and we've been hearing this for months now, the possibility of the split, this divide within the Republicans, and going in different directions. To split the party, isn't that basically a trip to the political wilderness?

EM: I would say that the status quo is worse than being in the political wilderness. The Republican Party has now become a destructive force in America. And it is better that it be in the wilderness for a cycle or two or three, than it continue on this track. For heaven's sakes, the party just led a violent insurrection against the government to overturn an election so that its president, a president of its party, could remain in office illegitimately. That is far worse for the country, far worse for the party in the long term than being in the political wilderness. I think we may need to go into the political wilderness for a little while. I know a lot of people who care more about power than the country -- don't like that thought, a lot of our representatives in Congress, but that's what needs to happen. And if we do that, if we are willing to do that, then all of the sudden we can compete for the votes of so many other Americans -- Americans from a variety of different backgrounds, racially, ethnically, religiously. We can better compete for the votes of women, for the votes of young people. Right now, those are largely unreachable to us because of what the party has become.

CO: We will be watching. Evan thank you.

EM: Thank you.

CH: Evan McMullin is the executive director of Stand Up Republic. He was the chief policy director for the House Republican Conference and also ran as an independent in the 2016 presidential election. We reached him in Washington, D.C. And for more on the story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Synth Music]

Chinese New Year

Guest: Michael Tan

CH: So long, rat. Hello, ox. Today, Chinese Canadians are celebrating the Lunar New Year. And that usually means food, dancing and family. For obvious reasons, the first days of this year of the ox are a bit more subdued than usual. But by popular demand, Vancouver's Chau Luen Athletic Club has found a way to put on its famous lion dance. Michael Tan is the club's president. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Michael, can you give us an idea of what the streets of Vancouver usually look like when the Lunar New Year year is rung in?

MICHAEL TAN: Yeah, absolutely. Most years during Lunar New Year celebrations, the streets in Chinatown are packed full of people wandering around to different shops, buying supplies. There's usually lots of line-ups. I mean, you'll wait half an hour to buy a barbecued chicken or a roast duck just so you can have a family dinner and a gathering. But this year is quite different.

CO: But it's also a big street festival. It is spectacle, isn't it? And your lion dance is one of those highlights. So what is the lion dance? Tell us what your performance is.

MT: So usually during the Lunar New Year, you'll see both dragon dances and lion dances and also during the parade as well -- and the streets are packed. The dragon dance is, in Chinese culture and mythology, the Chinese dragon is a symbol of the great emperor. It's a giant kind of serpentine creature, but it's very regal. And the lion is also another mythological creature in Chinese legend. And it's a bit smaller, is usually performed with two people and most of the performers are usually kung fu practitioners. In fact, in Chinese culture, a strong lion dance is considered a symbol of a strong kung fu club.

CO: And what do you look like when you're doing it?

MT: So there's essentially the lion and also the dragons -- they're usually they're made out of papier mâché and fabric. There are lots of colours, lots of acrobatics involved, and it's quite a sight to behold.

CO: What was the response when you thought you might have to cancel this year's dance?

MT: So we were all resigned to not having anything in person in terms of celebrating Lunar New Year. But essentially a few weeks ago what changed was that there started to be a trickle of people reaching out to me know, asking, "Mike, are you guys going to be doing anything for Lunar New Year? Are you guys are going to be doing a lion dance?" And it's from that trickle that it kind of became a torrent. And we realised there's such a demand of people wanting to continue these celebrations to adapt. So for us that are part of providing and promoting in these traditions of culture and rituals, how come we are not willing to put in that effort to try to adapt and bring that to an online audience?

CO: How are you going to do it then?

MT: It's come together very quickly. Everyone that's involved with this event is a volunteer. We all have full time jobs that are unrelated to producing a virtual online event. Number one, that's a testament to how much passion people have towards organising something like this online to continue these rituals. So we're holding an online event -- it's called Ox-spicious Lunar New Year Celebration Until The Cows Come Home. And what it's going to be is we're trying to replicate that feeling of that spectacle that you see during the Lunar New Year, that includes the lion dance performances, kung fu demonstrations, songs, food. Food is a big one in Chinese culture, and we're actually having a dumpling eating contest competitively. It'll also be interactive. You know, the audience can choose their favourite competitors. There's a people's choice prize as well.

CO: And just to go back and what you call it, the Ox-spicious in case people thought that you're misspeaking yourself -- Ox-spicious because it's the year of the ox, isn't it?

MT: It is the year of the Ox this year. So it's the second animal in the Chinese zodiac. I think it's so appropriate that this is the Year of the Ox because 2021 with us having to be resilient, the ox, the characteristics of being born in the Year of the Ox or being in the year is, is being persistent. It is about being strong, being a little bullheaded, to be honest. And we all have to be a little bit like that to make it through this pandemic.

CO: I was looking at a photo today -- a picture of a train station waiting room in China, almost empty and thinking of the hundreds of millions of people who would be on the move for this holiday. I mean, this is huge, right? So I mean, how bullheaded do you need to be to get through this?

MT: That's right. I mean, here in Canada, it's a little bit different. I mean, different pockets throughout the country, we've all got our challenges. At least here in Vancouver for us, we do know everyone's trying to do their best and being able to adapt online, that just talks about the resiliency of all communities.

CO: A producer, CBC producer and a friend, Samantha Lui was tweeting today that the thing to do is if you can eat a lot of really good food and call your grandparents.

MT: [Chuckles] Absolutely. And family is one of the quintessential themes around Lunar New Year. You bring your close knit family and extended family and your chosen family together. From 10 days ago, we had our first production meeting to today where we have several hundred registrants for this event and hopefully many more. We'll be going live tomorrow with this event.

CO: Well, I wish you big success with your virtual lion dance tomorrow Michael. And thank you.

MT: Thank you so much Carol. And people can learn more about it at: chinatown.today

CO: All right. You don't have to be in Vancouver to take part in this.

MT: Absolutely not. In fact, we have people from outside Vancouver that will be performing as well.

CO: Excellent. Thank you so much.

MT: Thank you Carol.

CO: Happy New Year.

MT: Happy New Year.

CH: Michael Tan is the president of the Chau Luen Athletic Club. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Pop Music]

Sound of the day: Australian Open

CH: There was a bit of a racket at the Australian Open today. A hotel in the host city, Melbourne, has been hit by a COVID outbreak. By Canadian standards, the numbers are still small. But health officials are keen to preserve the restaurant-going friends-hugging freedom that has accompanied their near-zero rate of transmission. So today they imposed a five day lockdown. It includes a curfew that was going to be hard for tennis fans to obey if they stayed to the end of the evening match between the American, Taylor Fritz, and world number one, Novak Djokovic. So when the umpire interrupted play and ordered everyone but the players to "Please go home," there were some less than sportsmanlike responses. It's our Sound of the Day.

UMPIRE: [Crowd booing loudly] Victoria government restrictions, you must be home by 11:59 p.m.. Therefore all patrons are required to leave the arena now. Play will be suspended while the arena is cleared. Out of respect to both players...[booing grows louder]

ANNOUNCER: Extraordinary scenes, but these are extraordinary times with lockdown less than half an hour away. Fans inside the arena have just been asked to leave. [Crowd chanting loudly in the background]

CH: That was the sound of fans being sent home in the middle of a match at the Australian Open. The state of Victoria had just imposed a new COVID curfew. And that was our Sound of the Day.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Part 2: Herron Home Closing

Herron Home Closing

Guest: Barbara Schneider

CH: Starting on Monday, Quebec coroner, Gehane Kamel, will begin a public enquiry into the thousands of long-term care deaths that occurred across the province last spring. That enquiry will start with the Herron residents in Dorval. It was one of Quebec's hardest hit long-term care homes. 38 people died there. And Barbara Schneider's mother, Mary, was one of them. We reached Ms. Schneider in Montreal.

CO: Barbara, what do you hope to learn when the enquiry starts next week?

BARBARA SCHNEIDER: I just hope that what comes to light is what we have more or less found out that the residents of Herron were neglected and they were left unattended to even though there was a pandemic, people left and the residents were just left alone without any assistance for days, with no water, no food. My mother was there. And we put her in this place. Remember, this was a private place that we paid money for. This was not a public facility. We paid a lot of money to put her there. And we entrusted in them, signed a contract that they would take care of my mother and they didn't.

CO: 38 people died in Herron at that time, and your mother was one of them. And so do you know how your mother died?

BS: Not 100 percent. But I'm pretty sure she died from neglect.

CO: And not from COVID?

BS: No, no, not from COVID. She had no problems breathing, she had no issues. She was fine going in. And we found out she had COVID two days before she died. There's no way she died from COVID in two days. Nobody dies in two days. She was fine. We saw a video of her before she died and she had lost, it looked like, 100 pounds. And my mother was a small small woman. So she lost so much weight. She looked like she was dehydrated. She looked like she was malnutritioned. She just was gaunt. It was horrific to see my mother in those conditions. It was deplorable, unacceptable. I mean, I was devastated to see her like that. She was too quick, too quick.

CO: Because you couldn't go in and see her, were you able to talk to her before she died?

BS: No, the communications were terrible. I used to speak to my mother a couple of times a day. Days would go by, and I couldn't speak to her. And every time I tried, the phone lines were down. And when I did try and speak to somebody, they would say, 'She's fine.' Obviously, that wasn't true. And it was terrible. I mean, if I knew what was really going on, I would have gone in and taken my mother and that would have been it. I mean, nothing would have stopped me. This was horrible.

CO: And what we've learnt as much as we have at this point is that the staff was getting sick, the staff left, they couldn't find replacements. And so people were severely neglected. We spoke to Peter Wheeland back in April last year when this was going on, and his parents lived at the Herron residence as well. And his father died of COVID. But he said there were just two orderlies responsible for 60 rooms. And as you know, so many of the people, including his mother, went unchanged. In their own waste, they were in for hours and hours. And those were the conditions. Do you know if your mother was living in those conditions as well?

BS: I don't know 100 percent because no one was allowed in. But I'm sure that happened to her. And I have horrible nightmares of her screaming for me because I was her lifeline and I was there for her and she was always well taken care of. My mother was a very well taken care of woman, for lack of a better way of saying it. I mean, she had everything she needed and there was no way she would have been left like that. And the owners of Katasa, I mean, there's no way -- they closed the doors. They should have had help. They should have asked for help. This shouldn't have gone on as long as it did, regardless of the pandemic. Things are happening. People are getting sick. Then a red flag is there. You call for help. There are people in this world. We need help, please send help.

CO: And this Katasa group -- Katasa Group and Development is the home's owner. And you're a lead plaintiff in a class action lawsuit against them. What do you think you will learn or get from that lawsuit as to the answers you're seeking?

BS: Well, my lawsuit is a civil suit, so it's only monetary. I'm hoping that the criminal investigation led by the police will be the ones who will hold him accountable. I have nothing to do with that. And there's nothing I can do about that. That will be, as I said, the police. And hopefully that will have will be brought to fruition and hold him accountable. My hands are tied with that.

CO: And you mentioned the criminal investigation. Montreal police are conducting that. And they told Radio Canada that they have completed the investigation. What do you expect to come from those? Do you think that you will see criminal charges?

BS: I hope so, that's all I can say. Because I believe that it was his fault. This should not have happened. He did have the doors closed and he did not ask for help when he should have. And no loved ones should be put in these conditions. I'm sure if his mother or any loved one of his was in this situation, he would have screamed bloody murder. Something should have been done. It was not handled at all in the correct way, and he was wrong.

CO: And the management of that home has now been taken over by the province. They say they'll be closing the facility. There's about 30 people left and they'll be moved someplace else.

BS: All of them will be gone. There is no Herron anymore, really.

CO: Does that bring any comfort to you to know that the place will shut down altogether?

BS: Well, if you think about it, knowing what went down, would any person really want to put their loved one in that home with what happened? No. So it just seems it would eventually have to close. A place like that couldn't have survived after what went down.

CO: Barbara, I'm so sorry about what happened to your mother. It is just awful. And I do appreciate, though, that you'd speak with us today. Thank you.

BS: You're welcome. Thank you again.

CH: Barbara Schneider is the daughter of Mary Schneider, who was one of 38 residents who died at the Herron long-term care home in Dorval last spring. On Monday, a coroner's enquiry into long term care deaths across Quebec will begin. We reached Barbara Schneider in Montreal.

[Music: Calm Music]

Britney Spears Conservatorship

Guest: Vanessa Grigoriadis

[MUSIC PLAYS: Britney Spears' "Piece Of Me"]

CH: Britney Spears with her 2007 song "Piece of Me," in which she takes direct aim at the paparazzi who are hounding her every move, including taking infamous photos of her shaving her head. That moment nearly 14 years ago led to headlines like "Britney's Meltdown" and "Sheer Madness." And her behaviour at the time also led to a court sanctioned conservatorship in which her father, Jamie Spears, gained control over nearly every aspect of her life. That conservatorship and Britney Spears' life are back in the spotlight, thanks in part to a new documentary by The New York Times called Framing Britney. And yesterday, a court ruled that her father cannot retain full control of her conservatorship. Vanessa Grigoriadis is a writer who's been covering this story for more than a decade. We reached her in New York.

CO: Vanessa, do we have any idea how Britney Spears feels about this court ruling that her father can't keep his control over her life?

VANESSA GRIGORIADIS: We don't know for sure, but we're pretty sure that she would be very happy to get her father out of her conservatorship. It's something she's wanted for a while.

CO: Can you give us what you know as to what kind of control her father had over her life? She's 39 years old now, right. What has he been able to exert as far as control during this conservatorship?

VG: Well, he has complete control of her finances, as far as I understand it. And it's been going on for about 12 years. He's responsible for her physical and mental health, whatever that means. But I think it's understood that he controls maybe even the custody schedule with Kevin Federline. He's taking care of the house managers and her house, like really anything she needs.

CO: I know this is a big story and you've covered it for a long time, but give us a sense of how this came about that her father had this role in her life.

VG: Well in about 2007-2008, she had a quite a spectacular decline in Los Angeles, which resulted in her being put in psychiatric care in the hospital there. At the time, the judge who was ruling on her custody said that she was a habitual, frequent, and continuous user of drugs. And this was part of why she was having a hard time getting custody of her children. And the assumption, although never proven, is that she also has a significant mental disease, like a bipolar or schizophrenia. But again, we don't know. So a lot of what's been going on is simply conjecture.

CO: We don't know from her but I guess what the public saw and she became the butt of some really vicious jokes during her 20s as it was a very public breakdown, wasn't it, that she had?

VG: Oh yeah. I mean, even Michael Jackson was never taken out of his house and stretcher with news cameras circling from helicopters overhead. And I was present for a lot of that. You know, I was reporting on her at a time when she was spending several hours a day on car chases through Los Angeles. And there's always been some thought that part of why she was taken out of her house to the hospital was that she was putting everybody in so much danger because she had a trail of 100 paparazzi cars coming after her because the press was just rabid for the Britney story that it was really posing like an actual civil disturbance in the city.

CO: But they were pursuing her because she was melting down. But was she melting down because they were pursuing her?

VG: Well, this is obviously the question of the documentary that's come out. And there's a bit of revisionist history. The idea that Britney had a mental breakdown because of the paparazzi pursuing her is just not...it's not as simple as that. There was something going on with drugs if the judge is to be believed. At the time she had cut off everybody. So there was a lot going on and the paparazzi were fuelling the fire. But I think to make this sound as though the paparazzi's pursuit of Britney was responsible for her meltdown is not correct.

CO: But she was a young girl, a young woman when she went into the public eye. This is extremely difficult for anyone to have that much attention put on them and to have to grow up in public.

VG: Sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think that we can extend a huge amount of sympathy to Britney Spears who was basically at six years old put into the world of show business and performed until very recently, pretty much all the time, right. And performed for us and was really subject to a lot of misogynistic thoughts about young women in the public eye and how sexy they should be and having to say she was a virgin. People actually asking those questions. And there was a lot of terrible stuff that was was going on.

CO: And you wrote a very widely read article for Rolling Stone magazine about Britney Spears in 2008 titled "The Tragedy of Britney Spears." When you look back at that article now, knowing what you know now, do you regret any of it?

VG: Well, I still think it's a tragedy. I regret that I didn't talk more about her mental disorder, her alleged mental disorder. You know, at the time back then, the press really didn't understand that when Charlie Sheen has a huge breakdown and starts yelling about "Tiger blood," he might have had a diagnosis before he did that. You know, that there were reasons that these celebrities were having breakdowns and that the media was also complicit in that. But a lot of those breakdowns had something to do with mental disorders that we didn't quite understand. And we talked a lot about drugs back then. That's really what we thought. We thought all these people are on drugs and that's why they're acting this way. But I think it was far different than that.

CO: The New York Times documentary you mentioned called Framing Britney. What's new in that? What does it tell us about her that we didn't know before and about this Free Britney movement?

VG: I don't think it tells us much that we didn't know before. I think it glosses over a lot of the mental health issues. And I think that it doesn't tell us what we know, which is that there is something going on with Britney Spears today that doesn't have anything to do with her being a strong, independent woman. And it may not be why she's still under that conservatorship. But to me, the more important question for people to be asking is if, hypothetically, we have a person here who has some sort of severe mental disorder but has made millions and millions of dollars that she made herself, should she be allowed to go set that money on fire if she wants? Because that. I think, if you talk to people who have really been following the story, that's the question that everybody wants answered.

CO: Vanessa we'll leave it there. Thank you.

VG: You're welcome.

CH: Vanessa Grigoriadis is a writer and the co-founder of Campside Media. We reached her in New York.

[Music: Synth Music]

Cold Pants

CH: Every city has its own unwritten rules -- the ones you'd better learn quickly if you hope to survive there. Don't dance at a concert in Toronto. Don't walk slowly in New York. Don't let the rain stop you in Vancouver. And do not stand on the left side of an escalator in D.C. In Chicago, one of those unofficial but firmly enforced rules has long been that if you shovel out a parking space in winter, you're entitled to call dibs. And as Humboldt Park resident Jamie Lynn Ferguson told Carol in 2014, people use some pretty inventive markers to claim their spots.

JAMIE LYNN FERGUSON: A lot of times it's just furniture. Most often kitchen and dining room chairs. Little kids furniture they'll put out there. But yeah, I've seen everything from dining chairs to piano keyboards and somebody even put like a knight in shining armour like a six foot tall iron man in their spot.

CH: Jamie Lynn Ferguson is a Chicago resident who lost patience with her neighbour's disputes over dibs parking spots in 2014 and just shovelled the whole block herself. Well, this week, her fellow Chicagoan, Adam Selzer, took a slightly different approach, relying on a pair of frozen pants to save himself a spot. Pants he was not. I should stress, inside. In a tweet Mr. Selzer build the stunt as polar vortex fun -- to coin a phrase. And his efforts inspired us to have some fun of our own by revisiting Carol's 2016 conversation with frozen pants purveyor Tom Grotting -- known for posing disembody trousers throughout Minneapolis.

TOM GROTTING: I started a couple of years ago. Got the idea from my brother. He was setting up a little vignette of pants outside his realty office.

CO: Okay, explain that. Why was he doing that?

TOM GROTTING: Well, you know...I don't know. But I found it funny enough to enjoy and to replicate.

CO: So your brother inspired you to start freezing pants. But why pants?

TOM GROTTING: Well, they are funny. Frozen pair of pants, are you kidding?

CO: All right. Can you describe -- it's not going to be as good on radio as the pictures are, but best as you can, describe what it looks like. Some of these little vignettes.

TOM GROTTING: Well, they're like little gatherings of pants talking to each other, meeting or watching something or walking down the sidewalk. I have taken blue jeans approach.

CO: And they're looking quite casual -- the jeans there. These jeans standing around in the freezing cold meeting each other.

TOM GROTTING: You have to stand there a long time so you've got to be kind of relaxed.

CO: And how are your kids feeling about this? Are they as entertained as you are?

TOM GROTTING: Well, they sort of put up with it. My son's friends kind of...they call them "The Fellas." When the Fellas come out, you know, it's cold.

CO: The Fellas being the blue jean fellas?

TOM GROTTING: Yeah. The Fellas are the pants. Exactly.

CO: I know that there are, this may surprise you, but a lot of people I know will want to know how you do it because they would want to do it themselves. How do you get them to look and stand up and look like they do in your pictures?

TOM GROTTING: Well, lots of practise. You really have to do it a lot.

CO: [Laughter] Okay. All right.

TOM GROTTING: So you get a bucket of water. First, you have to have all the raw materials. You have to have something close to below zero Fahrenheit. Water and pants. Dunk the pants in the water and pull them out of the water and sort of shape them as they're freezing.

CO: Well, how long does it take to get a pair of pants completely hardrock frozen?

TOM GROTTING: It could be about a half an hour.

CO: Wait a second, in the meantime, you're working with freezing cold wet pants. I mean, what about your hands?

TOM GROTTING: [Laughs] Yeah, you leave them out there, you sort of shape them. And if it gets too frozen, you bring them in and you can melt them a little bit.

CO: What your hands or the pants?

TOM GROTTING: [Laughs] Both actually, but mostly the pants.

CO: You have avoided frostbite up to this point.

TOM GROTTING: You stop it short of frostbite.

CO: How widespread has this now gone? How many places have you seen your idea show up?

TOM GROTTING: What's really quite remarkable, I think it's worldwide.

CO: Okay, it can't be worldwide, I mean, we're talking about where it's freezing.

TOM GROTTING: Do you mean people doing the pants...

CO: Okay. Yes. I mean...

TOM GROTTING: You know, it is pretty much regional. I think our little northeast Minneapolis and surrounding area.

CO: I know they're going to be out there freezing pants tonight, hopefully not...

TOM GROTTING: I would love to get it going all over Canada. I think you guys are the mecca of frozen opportunities.

CO: We're just frozen pants all the time here.

TOM GROTTING: I think you could ignite a firestorm.

CO: [Laughs] So to speak.

TOM GROTTING: Make it happen.

CH: Canada is the mecca of frozen pants opportunities. Tom Grotting is a Minneapolis, Minnesota, resident who freezes pants. He spoke with Carol in 2016.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Jazz pianist Chick Corea was an 'explorer and a seeker,' says friend Jack DeJohnette

Fish Attacks Bird

Guest: Corina Newsome

CH: The video of the bird's demise is grainy but gruesome. A baby seaside sparrow meeting its end in the jaws of a small, hungry fish called a mummichog. But that fish's gross triumph could ultimately be a pyrrhic victory because the scientist who captured the first of its kind footage says it could help save other birds lives. Corina Newsome is a graduate student at Georgia Southern University and one of the co-founders of Black Birders Week. We reached her in Atlanta.

CO: Corina, can you just start by describing what actually is happening in that video that we've seen?

CORINA NEWSOME: Yes. So there was a nest that originally had three eggs earlier in the day, but one of the eggs hatched. And so at night time that night that the chick hatched from its egg, there was a really high tide and the nest flooded, which is something that happens occasionally to birds like the seaside sparrow, that nest in tidal marshes. But when the water filled the nest, a mummichog, which is a small fish that lives in tidal marsh environments, leapt into the nest from the surrounding water, kind of hung out in the nest for a second, and then grabbed the chick that was still alive by the leg and started thrashing it around underwater, eating little bits of the chick in the process. So it was an act of predation.

CO: And this is the first time you have or anyone, I guess, scientists have recorded an incident of a fish raiding a nest?

CN: Yes, it was the first recorded instance of a fish depredating, is what it's called, or preying upon a bird while in its nest. Yes.

CO: Would this chick have survived that tide? Was it already in jeopardy?

CN: So it was already, yes, it was already at a risk of drowning. It had not drowned. And [inaudible] yet by the time the fish had entered the nest and it is possible for chicks to survive a nest flooding event, so if they can keep their nostrils above the water while the water is in the nest and they don't drown, they can survive. And if they are not kind of surrounded by water for too long, they can survive. And I've recorded instances of chicks surviving nest flooding, but because the fish came in and dragged the chick underwater, eating it, the chick was not able to survive.

CO: All right. I'm not letting the mummichog off the hook at all for this predation. This little creature was really struggling already. And so how did you come to capture this footage?

CN: So I'm currently studying nest predation in the salt marsh, specifically looking at seaside sparrows. And the predators that I was actually focussing on were mammals. And so I had video cameras on seaside sparrow nests to record any instance of mammalian predation. But of course, I get to see anything that happens in the nest. And so that night I just happened to capture what seems to be a possibly rare moments. But more research will be needed to see how often that interaction is actually happening outside in the saltmarsh.

CO: And so the big question is, is it happening more often now because of climate change?

CN: Yeah, that would be a very important question. And we know that nest flooding is projected to happen more frequently because the level of the sea is rising and high tides are getting higher. So we expect nest flooding to happen more often and therefore increase opportunities for interactions like this between aquatic predators and birds in the nest.

CO: Okay so that tidal marshes, these particular sparrows go there because they are trying to get away from other kinds of predators, right?

CN: Well, they're actually fully adapted to life in the saltmarsh, so they spend their entire life in the saltmarsh. So they do have some kind of techniques to avoid predation. So they'll kind of canopy their nests, they'll put marsh grass over their nests to kind of hide it from any predators that might be nearby. But of course, predators still do find the nests. But understanding the threat of nest predation and kind of how it varies across the salt marsh is really where my research comes in.

CO: But this must be a new twist for the birds to have to now, first of all, they're down there in the marshes to get away from those predators up there. And now they have to worry about what's down below. I mean, this is a new development for them, I would imagine.

CN: Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting because the lower the nest is to the ground, of course, the increased risk of nest flooding. But actually the higher their nest is off the ground, the more exposed they are to terrestrial predators. But this interaction that we see between the fish and the bird tells us that, hey, it looks like there's actually predation threat in both directions, which absolutely adds a plot twist.

CO: You're studying also how these birds are adapting, well just in general, how these marshland animals are adapting to changes. Do you fear or feel that they're not going to adapt quickly enough? Do you see changes in the way the birds are nesting that might indicate that they know the tides are not the same as they used to be?

CN: So the main concern is that in addition to kind of the nest flooding and the threats that are introduced to individual nests that are active out in the marsh, sea level rise is also going to simply shrink the available marsh that's there for a seaside sparrows to live and nest in. So one of the bigger threats when it comes to, is there a response fast enough? The bigger issue is can the marsh, what's called migrate -- because marshes, as you know, sea level rises, marshes can actually move into the upland forests and convert forest into marsh. The big concern is that because sea level rise is happening so fast, the marsh will not be able to migrate and create space for these birds to nest in. So that's actually one of the more kind of urgent threats when it comes to sea level rise is progressing.

CO: Is there discussion within conservation circles about intervening? Because if these developments -- if the birds are more at risk in these seaside wetlands because of climate change, because of the influence of those rising sea levels, are there discussions about intervening and to try to protect these birds?

CN: Definitely. And that's actually what my research is aiming to do. So while wildlife managers can't necessarily stop sea level rise, right. We can respond to nest predation. And there are lots of techniques that have been used, that are being used currently, and have been used in the past to protect nesting birds and all kinds of ecosystems. But one of the mechanisms that we can use is if we can kind of pinpoint where nest predation threat is highest for terrestrial predators when it comes to seaside sparrows, wildlife managers might be able to exclude predators from those sensitive areas, which could help to relax that nest predation threat that the seaside sparrows are experiencing and that they become more exposed to when they elevate their nests to avoid nest flooding.

CO: Very interesting, but also alarming. Corina, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CN: Absolutely. Thank you so much for speaking with me. It's great to meet you.

CO: You too.

CH: Corina Newsome is a graduate student at Georgia Southern University and the lead author of a new paper on a mummichog eating a seaside sparrow. We reached her in Atlanta.

[Music: Flute Music]

Nora Hendrix

CH: This week, the city of Vancouver voted to name a street after a Black woman for the first time. But some advocates think that that symbolic gesture is symbolic of a bigger problem. Nora Hendrix Way will be named after the woman who co-founded Fountain Chapel, the city's first Black church. Ms. Hendrix was also a cook at Vie's Kitchen and Steakhouse, and the grandmother of rock legend Jimi Hendrix. It's a tremendous legacy which some feel isn't fully honoured by naming a one block long street after Ms. Hendrix. June Francis from the Hogan's Alley Society told the CBC that there's a better way to appreciate Black history.

JUNE FRANCIS: I do not believe this is the right time to make this -- to approve it because it needs to be done in a way that allows us to be part of that decision. The city continues to show that it is simply performative. It wants to centre itself. It doesn't even want to ever credit the community and the activity that we have done to build them up to this point. My initial reading of this is that this way is not a major street that is not commensurate with the stature of the woman we're trying to honour and not commensurate with what we're trying to do. So by doing this, they're boxed this in. They want to get a big pat, a symbolic pat on the back on Black History Month. And they have done it in a way to give themselves credit without truly making a fundamental and substantive change. And we've always said to them, symbolism is not what we're looking for. We're looking for real change. And the fundamental thing here is to return that block to the stewardship of the Black community. We have made some progress recently after the Black Lives Matter protest and most importantly, after the young people occupied the ferry docks -- many of them ended up being arrested in that process. After all of that, the city did come back to us because of the public attention against it. And we have had two reasonably fruitful meetings. Until we see that [inaudible], it's not done. So in that respect, it is still a work in progress, but we remain sceptical until it's done.

CH: That was June Francis, co-chair of the Hogan's Alley Society. Ms. Francis spoke with CBC reporter Justin McElroy in Vancouver this week.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

Conch Shell Study

Guest: Gilles Tosello

[SOUND: Shell being played]

CH: It is not easy to know what the word for that shell sounds like, some say conch (pronounces with the H), some say conch (pronounces without the H). But that was the sound of an actual conch shell and not just once someone grabbed off a beach either. That conch shell is estimated to be about 18000 years old. For decades, that shell sat forgotten in a French museum. It was considered a simple ceremonial drinking cup and overlooked. But now archaeologists are convinced it's something far more remarkable. They believe it to be the world's oldest known seashell instrument. Gilles Tosello is part of the archaeological team that made the discovery. We reached him in Toulouse, France.

CO: Gilles when you hear that sound of that conch shell being played, what comes to mind?

GILLES TOSELLO: What comes to my mind is the sort of direct link to the prehistoric people that were living in the cave at that time and playing the shell.

CO: Can you picture them 18,000 years ago, people in a cave, and it would be echoey like that clip was listening to that shell being played.

GT: Yeah, exactly. We suppose that they were probably having some ceremony or ritual.

CO: The place where it was found, can you describe it? Because this is a very famous discovery of these caves in the Pyrenees. What would have been the atmosphere like? What was around this place where the shell was?

GT: Yeah, it is a small cave. It's not a huge one. And it's 50 metres long. It's a narrow gallery, something like two or three metre wide and high. And people were living there. They were making fire in the cave because it's dark, of course. And they were making these paintings on the wall. It was probably a sort of very religious atmosphere in the group.

CO: It was thought when the shell was discovered in the cave in the 1930s, they thought it was maybe a ceremonial cup, it was a vessel for drinking. So how is it that it was overlooked as a musical instrument?

GT: Yeah, because the end was broken -- the end of the shell. They saw that it was broken, but probably they thought that it was from natural causes. And in fact, it's impossible because we have the advice of an expert and he said that it's impossible that this part was broken by natural causes. It was intentionally broken. And that was the beginning of a quest because we thought immediately that if that part was intentionally broken, then maybe there were other evidences of human modification. And in fact, we found many of them.

CO: Like what?

GT: For example, with a digital camera, a medical one, we introduced it inside the shell. And we saw that there was a tiny hole, one centimetre in diameter was drilled from the broken edge inside the shell. And then we noticed that this very tiny remains of red pigment on the aperture of the shell. We use digital enhancement, then we saw that there was round chip and it reminded us the finger, the dots between the fingertips on the walls of the cave. It was exactly the same technique in the same motif. Same pattern.

CO: That's extraordinary. And so when you finally figured out that it might be a musical instrument, did you try to play it?

GT: Yeah. One of us tried, but it was not a big success because it's very difficult. It is like to blow in a trumpet. If you're not used to do that, then the lips are not correct. You know, then it's difficult to to blow with a powerful blow inside the shell otherwise you don't have any sound coming out. It is a bit ridiculous, in fact.

CO: But what we heard at the beginning, what our listeners just heard was a professional flautist playing the shell.

GT: Yeah, exactly. He's a professional musician and is a specialist in wind instrument. And he tried to play this note, but it was really painful because the broken edge was hurting his lips. That's why we are supposing that there is a piece missing now what he called a mouthpiece, something that you can put your lips comfortably in order to blow inside, otherwise it's too painful.

CO: That's so interesting. But you don't know what that might have been. What that might have looked like that mouthpiece.

GT: Yeah, it could have been made maybe with wood or with clay and then tied with a wire and so on. We don't know exactly. But that's why we went to examine -- before the publication of the paper -- we went to examine other conchs coming from all over the world in the Museum de Toulouse, which is a very famous museum of ethnology in France. And they have a lot of conch shells coming from all over the world. So we try to figure out how the mouthpiece could have been.

CO: But any of those other shell instruments, were they as old as this one, 18000 years?

GT: No, no, no. It's the most ancient, definitely. For the moment, it is unique.

CO: Now, just one final question, because you did discover this in the mountains in the Pyrenees. How did it get there? This is a shell from the ocean, right?

GT: Yeah, it's 250 kilometres from the far west, the coast. There are two solutions to this. The first, they went to the coast and they found the shell and brought it back. Or they could have exchanged it because at that time, the people they were leaving from hunting and they were nomadic -- this means they were travelling all over the year and they were going from one campsite to another and they were meeting of the groups. So during one of these meetings, maybe they could exchanged the shell with the neighbours, if I can say so.

CO: Yeah, it does show you that, I mean, life was hard. I'm sure it was a lot of drudgery. But music and the arts were obviously very important to these people.

GT: Yeah, yeah. Especially these groups, we call them the Magdalenian. It's a very sophisticated civilisation because they were producing music. They also have flute made with the animal bones and with small hole. They had probably also drums. They have also beads made with the shell on animal teeth. They were sort of artistic skilled, very well developed.

CO: Gilles it's just fascinating. And I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

GT: Thanks to you.

CH: Gilles Tosello is an archaeologist, he's part of a team that discovered an 18000 year old seashell instrument. We reached him in Toulouse, France.

Chick Corea Obit

Guest: Jack DeJohnette

[MUSIC PLAYS: Miles Davis' "Footprints"]

CH: This is Footprints from the 1970 album Miles Davis at Fillmore. And that is Chick Corea on electric piano. Whenever Mr. Corea sat down at the piano, there was no telling what might happen. As he told the Associated Press, "Like a runner loves to run because it just feels good, I like to play the piano just because it feels good. I can just switch gears and go to another direction, whatever I want to do. It's a constant experiment." Chick Corea, a boundary pushing jazz pianist and composer, died on Tuesday. He was 79. Mr. Corea played with everyone: Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, a who's who of jazz. But his sound was diverse and ever evolving. He borrowed from classical, rock, and Latin. He was an early adopter of electronic instruments and a pioneer of jazz fusion. Jack DeJohnette is a drummer, pianist, and composer. He was a longtime collaborator and friend of Mr. Corea. We reached him in upstate New York.

CO: Jack, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

JACK DEJOHNETTE: Yeah, it was quite a shock. Chick was so vibrant and alive and creative and inspiring. He and I did something a Zoom promotion for double vinyl album called Bill Evans "Live at Ronnie Scott's" -- and he looked great.

CO: Was that the last time you were in touch with him?

JD: Yeah, it was some months ago. But, I didn't have any idea that his demise would come suddenly.

CO: What's your first memory of meeting him, meeting Chick Corea, and hearing him play?

JD: I first heard Chick on a Blue Mitchell Junior Cook album.

CO: And what did you think when you first heard him play?

JD: Yeah, I thought he had something to say. You know, eventually -- I guess we met and we used to play over at his house and just playing with him was a great fun challenge. And, yeah, he was an explorer and a seeker. He was never afraid to try anything, and we were all of that same mind. So musically, we sort of fit like a glove.

CO: When you say fit like a glove, that little bit we just played in the introduction -- we're going to play more after our interview -- but that was you and Chick Corea playing with Miles Davis in 1970.

JD: And I think Dave Holland.

CO: And as you say, it's just this playfulness, the experiment. But it's so tight at the same time. What do you hear in that when you hear just that part? What do you hear of Chick Corea?

JD: Well, I mean, again, like I said, he's an improviser. He's really alert and he covers all the bases, and you can trust the music when Chick is involved.

CO: He moved on from playing with Miles Davis. Set off on his own. What was he seeking? What do you think that he wanted to do with his music when he set off on his own?

JD: He just wanted to reach as many people as possible. And he was always a seeker and he was always coming up with fresh projects to put out. He had "Return to Forever" and the "My Spanish Heart" band and the electric band. So he always surrounded himself with great musicians and setting up projects that were challenging but communicative. The best thing about Chick's music is he knew how to communicate it to a lot of people and get it out there. He was on the road constantly. He could make sure that his music was being heard by lots of people.

CO: And he just took it into, as you mentioned, just so many different sounds, so many different kinds of fusion with experiment. But at the same time, as you said earlier, it's playful. I mean, this is what he's always been known for, is that he was having fun. He was engaging in ways that was not very serious, but it was hard work, wasn't it?

JD: Well, yeah, but a labour of love work. Yeah. You know, the music gave him something back when he put it out there. So I think he thrived off of that as well.

CO: What influence did his -- because he went off on his own after discovering the Scientology movement -- did that influence his music?

JD: Not at all. You know, he's been consistent. One thing about Chick is he's been consistent throughout his life. You know what to expect from him: a high level quality of musicians, composition, and improvisation. And he kept that standard, that high standard, throughout his life.

CO: What was he like off stage?

JD: Great. He was offstage as he was on stage. You know, he was very communicative. He could talk about anything. He had a sense of humour. And avery generous as a human being. We had a lot of fun together and had some good talk together and yeah. He was like he was in music as he was in life.

CO: He wasn't just talented, he was hugely successful as well, wasn't he? He has the most jazz Grammys of anyone: 23 awards. He had huge commercial success. How much of that mattered to him?

JD: I don't think it mattered that much. What mattered to him was getting to play the music. Music was first and foremost to him. And having fun in musicians and reaching is, like I said before, reaching as many people as he could to give them something to lift up their spirits -- his spirit as well.

CO: And he did that on a global scale, didn't he?

JD: Absolutely.

CO: Is there any song you'd like us to play? Just as we are thinking of what disc to play, what cut -- anything you'd like for us to do to remember your friend?

JD: Yeah. You could play -- it's from the "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" album with Roy Haynes and Miroslav Vitous. The blues. [Jack singing the tune] It might be the first cut, I'm not sure. But it's a blues -- kind of up-tempo. Medium up-tempo.

CO: We will find it. Jack, thank you so much.

JD: Yeah, my pleasure.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Thank you.

CH: Mr. Corea's friend and longtime collaborator, drummer Jack DeJohnette. You can find that interview and learn more about Chick Corea on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

February 12, 2021 Episode Transcript

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