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The AIH Transcript for March 9, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Losing patience. Italy is now the centre of the Corona virus outbreak in Europe. We speak to a doctor there who says the health system is straining to care for the seriously ill -- and that to avoid disaster the healthy will need to, in his words, "behave."

CH: Contested leadership. It was the Wet'suwet'en Hereditary Chiefs who made a deal with the government ending nationwide rail blockades and protests for now. The elected chiefs weren't at that table. We'll hear from one who says that was a mistake.

CO: Low, low prices. From geopolitical desktops to a global epidemic, our guest says a perfect and very sudden storm is behind the plunging stock markets.

CH: Homelessness affects Indigenous people more than anyone else in Canada. Jesse Thistle argues that knowledge and experience can be put to use, which is exactly what he is trying to do.

CO: Escape from Moria. As the situation at the Greek refugee camp worsens, children living there have been given new hope for a life elsewhere in Europe. We hear about the conditions they'll be leaving behind.

CH: And what's good for the goose poop. A Vancouver Island politician has found a novel solution for a filthy soccer field, a truly super-duper pooper scooper: The Poop Zamboni. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's been there, dung that.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Italians must follow rules and stay home to stop coronavirus 'disaster,' says doctor

Coronavirus: Italy

Guest: Giacomo Grasselli

CH: Italy is taking extreme measures to try to stop the spread of the coronavirus. This afternoon, Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte announced that restrictions in the so-called "red zone" that had previously applied to the north will now be extended countrywide. Italians are being told not to travel other than for work and emergencies. And public gatherings will be cancelled. More than 9000 cases of the virus have been confirmed in Italy. And more than 450 people have died. Giacomo Grasselli is a doctor and professor of anesthesiology who is coordinating the intensive care response in the epicentre of the outbreak in the Lombardy region. We reached him earlier today in Milan -- before the latest restrictions were announced.

CO: Professor Grasselli, just how stressed is the hospital system where you are right now?

GIACOMO GRASSELLI: While the hospital system here in Lombardy, which is the region around Milan, which is by the way a very rich and I would say modern and organized region, is very stressed. But it's very easy to understand that you have to think that we have admitted to ICU more than 600 patients. So we have increased our ICU beds capacity about 30 per cent. And we are planning to increase it further by 50 per cent. But again, we admit to the ICU 40 to 50 patients per day.

CO: So this is the ICU we are talking about. These are not just people showing up with symptoms, or who are not feeling well. These are critically ill people.

GG: Yeah. Critically ill people. Unfortunately, we have different data compared to the Chinese data. In our experience now, about 40 to 50 percent of the people who test positive to the swab require hospital admission for pneumonia and some form of respiratory failure. And around 10 to 20 percent of the positive people require ICU admission and they are all seriously ill.

CO: That is considerably different than what we've heard from China or Iran --- much smaller present. Do you think it's because, as some have said, that you have an older population in Italy, more people have underlying health problems -- is that contributing?

GG: That's a possible explanation. The median age of the people admitted to ICU is 65 years old compared to around 50 in China. Meaning that half of the people are younger than 65. In the last, let's say, 7 or 10 days, we've seen an increase in the number of younger people admitted to ICU.

CO: It's also possible that politics is playing a role. We know that Iran and China have been trying to downplay the severity of the issue. Do you think that's part of it?

GG: I know China very well. I go there quite often. And I have colleagues there. And as far as I understand from them, the situation there is probably worse than it was described. I am pretty sure of the numbers here in Lombardy because I'm here at the task force centre of the government of the region. And I'm leading the coordinating centre for the ICU network. And I know each patient one-by-one. So I'm pretty sure about our numbers.

CO: Right. The fact that there is now just an extraordinary lockdown, a quarantine in Lombardy and also other regions in northern Italy -- is that going to help?

GG: There's no police or army around. And people are walking freely around. And unfortunately, they're still going into bars and restaurants at least until 6:00 in the evening. One of our problem is that probably the containment measures are not strong enough. And we are asking every day to increase the strength of the containment measures, because I have the feeling that people are not realizing what's happening. And the only way to control this is to stop the spread of the disease. The more patients you have, sooner or later, the number of ICU beds will be insufficient. So the only way is to make people understand that they have to stay at home, they have to avoid crowded place, they have to wash their hands. And all the simple rules that you know very well.

CO: What's going on in Italy that this outbreak has been able to spread so much?

GG: I do not have an answer. I mean, probably the density of the population in the area where everything started was is quite high. And those people move a lot from those areas to Milan. But I know that it's becoming worse, for example, in France. I hear from my colleagues. It's a very contagious and very insignis disease. I hope that it won't. But I'm not sure that what's happening here now, I'm not sure that it cannot happen in one week or so, elsewhere.

CO: And what concerns do you have? You are coordinating the ICU response in this red zone. What concerns do you have for your doctors and nurses, for your health practitioners? Because I'm sure they're exhausted and they're exposed.

GG: Of course. Of course. So they're working. I think that we are, let's say, struggling a lot. And then I would say that people, doctors, nurses, are heroes here because it's 16 days -- 17 now -- that they work like night and day, seven days a week, without rest, trying to save as many lives as possible. Clearly it's a big stress for the people and for the system.

CO: And now these red zones -- northern Italy is the one containment zone. How long before you see it spreading to the rest of Italy?

GG: While I'm not an epidemiologist, so I cannot do any forecast. I know that if the containment measures are strong enough, we will be able to control the spread of the disease. Otherwise, it's going to be a disaster here in Lombardy and then in the rest of Italy and in Europe.

CO: But you just said the containment measures you don't feel are adequate.

GG: I feel that now day-by-day, they're realizing that we need stronger measures. I think that they are realizing that it's probably what we need. I hope that the containment measures will be stronger or that the population will realize that the only way to avoid a disaster is to behave.

CO: Okay. Just one final question. You're on the front line there in Italy. Canada is in the early days of a growing problem. What message do you have for countries like Canada?

GG: The key messages are that you have to start informing the population, and start telling them that if this comes they will have to act in a certain way because no matter how good is your health care system if this tsunami arrives, sooner or later, you will be submerged. So it's very important to avoid this prior to the entire country.

CO: Professor Graselli, I know you're very busy. You have a lot on your plate. So I thank you for speaking with us. And I do hope that you can stay healthy.

GG: Yeah. Thank you very much. Bye.

CH: We reached Dr. Giacomo Graselli in Milan, Italy. After we recorded that interview. Italy announced restrictions on travel and public gatherings across the entire country. For more on the story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Market volatility

Guest: Frances Donald

CH: Stocks plunged in markets around the world today. And it all began with a disagreement between two men. On Friday, Russia's Vladimir Putin and Saudi Arabia's Mohammed bin Salman had a falling out over how much oil the countries should produce. Over the weekend, that turned into an all-out price war, for coronavirus-shaken traders, the huge drop in oil prices proved too much. This morning, they sold off so fast the Nasdaq and the New York and Toronto exchanges all hit the crisis point where they temporarily shut down trading. Now, people like Frances Donald have the unenviable task of figuring out what happens next. Ms. Donald is the chief economist at Manulife Investment Management. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Donald, how dramatic a day was this for market watchers like you?

FRANCES DONALD: Well, it's always a significant day when market trading is halted. But it isn't just today. It's a series of weeks that have seen huge market moves that in some ways are historic in terms of their size. It is the compounding of a series of events, not just COVID-19, but concerns about recession risks and now having to deal with a plummeting in oil prices -- and what that means for the global economy, for corporate credit, for energy stocks.

CO: All right. So this latest chapter of this crazy few weeks that you've had, it seems to have begun -- or started -- when it was decided in Saudi Arabia that they were going to increase the production of crude. And that seems to have come out of a battle between Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Vladimir Putin of Russia. So it just briefly, how did that happen?

FD: Well, these are geopolitical issues and they were somewhat on the market's radar. But the idea that we would see oil prices drop to such a large extent was not on the market's radar. And now we have to assess not just health pandemics, but geopolitical developments and whether or not we're going to continue to see a similar battle between Russia and Saudi Arabia versus the United States. We are in an environment where U.S. producers are not capable of withstanding business investment at levels such at seas. And we've reached a point now where we have to assess whether these low prices in oil actually amplify U.S. recession risk, which was already a concern for many of us.

CO: But how much further can the crisis go? I mean, there are some -- one former Exxon advisor has said $20 oil in 2020 is coming. Is it possible it could sink to that level?

FD: Well, it's certainly possible. One of the bigger concerns, however, is: how long does it stay at low? Are we simply experiencing a short decline as the bulk of the move occurred behind us? Probably. What we worry about is how long companies can withstand prices this low. If it's one to two months, then we'll come out of this pretty quickly. If it's six months to a year, we're talking about an entirely different ballgame. Watching credit markets today showed us a pretty clear concern that a lot of these energy companies that took on debt, that are classified as high yield debt or more problematic debt, the market is worried.

CO: What does this mean for Canadian oil business? Because we know already that Alberta is really hurting because of the lack of business because of, well, pipelines and also because of the price. So what does this actually mean for the industry in this country?

FD: Well, luckily the Western Canada select, which is the Canadian oil price, has not moved as aggressively downwards as what we've seen from Brent, for example. But what worries me is exactly the same thing that worries me about COVID-19: the confidence shock. If people are concerned about the future of the energy patch, even more concern in these environments, they aren't likely to go out and spend. If they're worried about their jobs, they're not going to go buy that house or even that extra couch, or maybe even go out to dinner. And the ripple effects through the services economy are the real problem facing not just Canada, but the United States. You add that on top of concerns about public health, and we're in a situation which markets could probably pull back even more.

CO: Okay. So we get a dust up between Saudi Prince and the President of Russia. And we see a major problem for one, Jason Kenney, who's the Premier of Alberta, who's just passed a budget that relies on a much higher price for oil than perhaps he's going to get. So what does it mean for the economy of Alberta?

FD: Well, this is one of the ongoing problems for Canadians, which is so much of what happens to the global price of oil is entirely unrelated to what's happening here at home. So not only are we facing these geopolitical risks related to [inaudible] not choosing to cut, but the way we're heading into this, we're already seeing oil prices decline just on the idea that we're entering a global recession. So what we're witnessing here is an amplification of a trend we were already seeing. It's very difficult in my mind to be arguing for significantly higher oil prices than where we are now, if the global economy is heading much closer towards recession. And these developments are happening completely outside the control of Canadian policymakers and are likely to stay that way.

CO: We have a terrible phone line. [Chuckles] Which is may be a metaphor for what's going on right now in the markets. But I'll just ask you, just quickly, one last question. What are your predictions for a recession? Is that a likelihood at this point?

FD: We may already be in a Canadian recession. But it really depends on how long it is and whether or not it's shallow or pronounced. Does it stay focused on simply trade and manufacturing? Or does it bleed through into jobs? It's too early to tell. We need to be clear eyed heading into a period of a lot more turbulence than we've seen, frankly, in the past 10 years. And be aware that we could certainly see a little bit of a tick up in those job losses in the next couple of months. We have to be cautiously optimistic, but also realists.

CO: All right. On that, we're going to leave it. Ms. Donald, thank you.

FD: Thank you for having me.

CH: Frances Donald is the chief economist at Manulife Investment Management. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music]

Poop Zamboni

Guest: Mike Hicks

CH: Mike Hicks just convinced his town to buy a $10,000 Zamboni. Which would seem like a wildly impractical purchase for Sooke -- a temperate town on Vancouver Island with nary an outdoor rink in sight. But Mr. Hicks bought his Zamboni to be used on soccer fields, not hockey rinks. And he's not cleaning up ice. He's cleaning up goose poop. We reached Mike Hicks, the driver of Sooke's new poop Zamboni in Sooke, B.C..

CO: Mike, why did your town need a poop Zamboni?

MIKE HICKS: Well, the real goose problem on the on the West Coast, and especially in Sooke. We have a real goose problem. And there's hundred or hundreds --there's a couple of hundred geese at any one time on a field where the kids play soccer. And each goose let's go about three pounds of poop every day. So you can do the addition and the multiplication. And that's what was on the field. And so it's just terrible. And it's been terrible for the kids forever. And I discovered a machine in New Zealand that would take it, that would clean up the poop. And that's what we are doing right now.

CO: Okay. So what's been happening up to now? Before you had the poop Zamboni and you had three pounds per poop on your field -- would that mean the kids couldn't play?

MH: Oh they played. But also some of them got sick. Everyone dragged all that poop back to their houses and their cars. And it's just a mess. You know, if you slide in for a big steal or something, you get up and you're just head-to-toe poop.

CO: Oh my God.

MH: Yeah. I don't know what it's like back where you are, but out here we have resident geese and they don't go anywhere and we're not really dealing with them as far as, you know, making less of them. And so this is the solution as far as I can see. And it works perfect.

CO: It's not a Zamboni, right? So what exactly is this machine?

MH: It's a machine that is made in New Zealand. It is called Tow and Collect. And they use it for paddocks, for horses. But it works great on this. And it's something you drag behind -- we have a Cushman, but you'd have an ATV or whatever, and you drag behind. Tow it behind. And the wheels go one way. But there is a brush that drives the opposite direction. So it brushes up the poop into a hopper. And then you go over to the other side of the field when you've got enough and you get a lever and it empties on the side of the field. And then you go back and get more.

CO: This is a supper hour show. [Chuckles] So I know you're giving too many details. But I mean, from my experience from what I've seen of goose poop, it's pretty greasy stuff, right? It's [chuckles] not easy to pick up, I guess. So how does this machine actually...does it have to be of a certain consistency?

MH: It does. I tried it on the rainiest day possible -- wet fields, wet poop, fresh [chuckles] from a fresh mother lode of it. And it swept it up beautifully. And, you know, it works really well. It's cost 10,000 dollars Canadian to get one landed in Victoria from New Zealand. But it's for me, it's totally worth it. It is just great.

CO: How did you convince the town to buy this? Given it is 10,000 dollars, they must have had some doubts.

MH: I didn't tell them. [Laughs] No. I represent the area around Sooke. I'm a regional director, much like a reeve. And we have gas tax funds that Prime Minister Trudeau sends to us for infrastructure. And we're also allowed to use it for recreational equipment. So I convinced the powers that be that this was recreational equipment. And so they allowed me to get it and we got it. And I didn't really tell anyone until I tried it because it worked so well. I was worried it was maybe a scam or something [chuckles] in New Zealand. But it wasn't -- it works fine.

CO: So this is federal gas tax money?

MH: Yep.

CO: [Laughs] What would you think Prime Minister Justin Trudeau would think if he knew you were spending that money on a poop Zamboni?

MH: I think he, amongst more than anyone, would be delighted. He has two kids that play soccer. He probably would say, "Get me one of those things for the fields in Ottawa." And the municipalities can use their gas tax funds to purchase it. It's fantastic.

CO: I mean, from places I know where this exists, the goose poop, it's pretty ghastly. So do you think that other people -- you are probably going to get calls from other municipalities saying, where do I get one?

MH: Oh, absolutely. I just hung up the phone with a golf course in Victoria that wants to know how they can get one. I wish had invented. I wish I could take credit for it, but I didn't. And whoever did this, did a great job. And I really hope school boards and municipalities, they all get one of these things. It is tremendous. It is just tremendous. And to see the parents' and the kids' looks on their faces when they come to the field and it's clean the first time in history -- and I mean clean -- it's nice. So, you know, a lot of people build artificial turf fields because of the geese problem and this would alleviate that too.

CO: So have you become the poop hero of Sooke?

MH: Well, that's what they called me in the newspaper. [CO Laughs] But I like to call myself a poop buster, not a hero. [Laughter]

CO: There's a great picture of you with the poop buster and the cutest little dog.

MH: Patches is her name. She likes to help me. She watches for geese coming.

CO: Oh, I bet she does. This must be pretty exciting to see you. But you got 6,000 geese producing this -- these thousands of pounds of droppings. Can you and Patches keep up?

MH: Oh we can keep up with these two fields. I can do a field in about an hour. And the nice thing is when they come back in, they sort of go around in one area. They don't just like walk every inch of that field. They just sort of circulate one area. So if you keep up with it, you know, a field can do like twice a week -- two hours a week, you can keep a field clean as a whistle.

CO: Everybody's going to want one of these.

MH: I hope so. I hope so. [Laughter]

CO: It's great to talk to you, Mike. Thanks.

MH: Well, thank you very much. It's been fun being on your program too.

CO: Okay. Bye bye.

MH: Okay. Bye.

CH: Mike Hicks is the director for the Juan de Fuca Electoral Area. We reached him in Sooke, B.C.. And you can see what the poop Zamboni looks like by going to: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Fire Starter

CH: To make sure they're free, they have to be under constant surveillance. And most of them accept this cruel irony. But one brave soul would not take it anymore. She looked at her docile colleagues and decided to try to light a fire under their butts. By lighting one with her own. On Saturday, firefighters were called to a farm in North Yorkshire, England. A 75 square metre fire was burning in four pig pens. They put it out easily and no pigs were injured. And an investigation showed that it was a strange accident. Or a bold act of civil disobedience that was meant to look like one. The pigs on that farm are free range. Which is nice, except that to ensure their free range some of them are fitted with pedometers. And it looks like one pig felt that kind of Orwellian freedom wasn't freedom at all. So she came up with a plan. First, she'd approach one of her colleagues and eat his pedometer. And the second phase of her plan would eventually become obvious by a process of elimination. But that was the cunning part. Obviously, the rebel pig knew that the copper in the pedometer would react with her own excrement and with the hay in the pig pen, which would start a fire, which it did. And now that we've put it all together, it's obvious that it was a clear message of defiance and not just a simple slip of the dung.

[Music]

Part 2: Elected chiefs should have been at the table for Wet'suwet'en deal, says Chief Dan George

Wet'suwet'en chief

Guest: Dan George

CH: Dan George and his community have a decision to make. The results of which could be felt from coast to coast. Chief George is the elected chief of the Ts'il Kaz Koh First Nation in British Columbia. It's one of the First Nations whose members are in the process of deciding whether they support the draft deal struck between Ottawa, B.C. and the Wet'suwet'en's Hereditary Chiefs earlier this month. The proposal brought an end to nationwide protests and blockades. But Chief George and the other elected chiefs weren't invited to the negotiations. We reached Chief Dan George in Toronto.

CO: Chief George, can you explain to us who speaks for the Wet'suwet'en people? Is it you and the fellow elected chiefs? Or is it the hereditary chiefs who struck this deal?

DAN GEORGE: Well, I've been voted in by Wet'suwet'en people as an elected chief, just like Sandra George, who is a hereditary chief. She's been elected in by their community, of Witset, as their elected chief. So any of the hereditary cherry can run for elected positions and they also get to vote for the elected positions.

CO: Why is it that the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs? The band council chiefs. Why are they at the table making this deal with Ottawa and the province?

DG: My position is that I'm not signing no title and rights agreement. We need to figure out our governance structure within the hereditary chiefs system first and foremost. All those protests started because of our governance system. So it must end with our governance system also.

CO: And you as a band council chief, you have not seen the whole deal that has been struck with the province and the federal government?

DG: I have seen part of it that got leaked out. But I'm not even sure if it's the right one. So I'm not privy to comment on it right now.

CO: But you've only seen parts that have been leaked out. Nothing has been shared with you.

DG: No. They're keeping it confidential until our meeting on Friday.

CO: How important is it? Because this was something that came out of the Supreme Court decision in 1998, isn't it? That the establishment of the relationship between these two parts, the hereditary chiefs and the elected band council chiefs. How important is it that that now be resolved in order to move forward?

DG: Well, as elected chiefs, we got to know where our people sit and stand, eh? Because we represent all the clans. We don't represent just one clan. We represent everybody, including the hereditary chiefs that reside on our reserves. They get housing from elected chiefs.

CO: But you and the others -- the band council -- are elected. The others are chosen as the leaders of clans and of the hereditary head chief positions within those clans. And so what responsibilities do they have?

DG: In historical times, hereditary chiefs -- used to be all the chiefs -- took care of the land and took care of all the people. But things have changed through the Indian Act and everything else over the years. So a lot of it has to come out that since the Indian act in 1867, we have been a major part of all of the negotiations. And we've also fought for title and rights. And if you look at some of the court cases like the Derren case, the Calder case, even the Chilcotin that has been probably the closest one in the near future that was all done by elected chiefs also.

CO: Do you feel that the hereditary chiefs who are at the table, do you feel that they are representing the best interests of your people?

DG: No, I don't think they're representing the best interests of our people. Also, you've got to realize, too, there's 13 seats available. There's only six -- there's four vacant right now. There's six seats. And they only represent three clans. They don't represent all the clans.

CO: When you say the houses, these are the 13 Wet'suwet'en nation hereditary houses that are part of those clans, right?

DG: Yes.

CO: And one of the men who represent those houses has now said that he does support the Coastal GasLink project.

DG: Yes, I've seen that.

CO: Well, if you don't feel that they're representing the best interests of your people -- what concerns do you have about what's going on right now?

DG: Well, my concern is really the governance. So if the people are voting for me, who are all Wet'suwet'en, and voted for LNG that tells you that they're all in support of it already. And that goes with rest of the bands also.

CO: So what is this like for you? As an elected chief, as someone who is accountable to your people -- what is this process like for you?

DG: It's very stressful. There is whole lot of media calling me all the time. And it's a very stressful time for all of us. And like I said before, it is causing some negative discrimination against a lot of First Nations up in northern B.C., especially relevant when you're live in small community in communities with five to seven thousand people. It's more relevant in the smaller communities than it is in bigger cities.

CO: And what do you think has been the effect of the call to shut down Canada and the blockades that we have seen from coast to coast?

DG: Well, I think that was bad for Canada, and I'm just glad that the blockades have come down. I'd like to thank all the First Nations that have taken the blockades down so Canada can get back to business.

CO: Do you think that there is lasting fallout from those initiatives?

DG: Well, I think, like I said, it started out with our governance system. That's what started the whole protest. So I think it's got to end with our governance system also.

CO: Do you support the Coastal GasLink project?

DG: Of course I do. I'm also part of Carrier Sekani. And we've negotiated a huge deal called Pathways 2.0 with the provincial government. And whether the line goes through or not, we still have this huge agreement.

CO: Since the latest round of this began on that Morris West Forest Service road and the RCMP moved in on it, this has become an international story. Do you think that there's in any way a silver lining in that a lot of things are moving along because of this, I guess, crisis?

DG: Well, I think the silver lining is creating a governance systems that we can work together. I think that's the only silver lining that I can see out of it. That if we can come together and create a governance system and work together, I think that's the only silver lining that can come out of this.

CO: And how likely is that, do you think, that you'll have that governance system?

DG: Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure the position of the hereditary chiefs until I start meeting with them and where their stance is going to be.

CO: Do you think you would have helped if you had been able to be part of the negotiations, the talks that have been going on?

DG: Yes. I think that government of the province and the federal government were wrong to go in there without selected chiefs because that's what it started. And that's what's going to end it.

CO: Chief George, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DG: Thanks for having me.

CH: Dan George is the Chief of the Ts'il Kaz Koh First Nation. We reached him in Toronto. And you can read more about that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Silene Fredriksz

CH: The trial of four men accused of mass murder in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 began today in the Netherlands. But the prisoner's box is empty. Three Russians and one Ukrainian are being tried in absentia for the shooting down of the passenger jet in 2014. Last June when the charges were announced, we spoke to Silene Fredriksz whose son, Bryce, and his girlfriend Daisy were killed on Flight MH17. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

SILENE FREDRIKSZ: I don't expect very much that the perpetrators will be in jail someday. No, I don't expect that.

CO: What do you make of the fact that Russia continues to deny that it supplied the missile system?

SF: That makes me angry. Really angry. Especially the lies. They're lying all the time and telling everybody that the JIT is lying or the JIT is not lying of course. That makes me angry, yes.

CO: Do you think that it matters to these four men that they're going to be tried in absentia?

SF: Already two of them reacted in the media they don't. They didn't have anything to do with it. And they're not going to show up.

CO: If you had a chance to face these men, what would you want them to know about what you have been through?

SF: I think that they don't care. That's what I think. They ruined my life and of my whole family -- and the children's lives. They had a future and that was stolen. For what?

CO: And we're speaking about your son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy who were killed on that plane.

SF: Yes. Yeah. They had a whole future in front of them. It's very hard to move on. Your life is very different. Losing a child is different from losing a father or mother or a brother or a sister. Part of your future is gone.

CH: From our archives, that was Silene Fredriksz. Her son and his girlfriend were killed when Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in 2014. Today, the trial started in absentia for four men who are accused of playing a part in the mass murder.

[Music]

Greek children: camps

Guest: Damian Boeselager

CH: For those living in refugee camps in Greece, life was already extremely difficult. But since Turkey's president effectively opened the country's border to asylum seekers, it's become even worse. Now it looks like there may be an escape route for some of the most vulnerable people living in the camps: unaccompanied minors. Today, the German government said it would cooperate with several other European Union countries to take in up to 1500 child refugees living in Greek camps. Damian Boeselager recently visited one of those camps. In January, we spoke with the German MEP about what he saw at the Moria camp on Lesbos. Today we reached him in Brussels.

CO: Mr. Boeselager, what do you make of his plan to bring these children to Europe?

DAMIAN BOESELAGER: So first of all, I mean, they are already on European soil so I think it's a good idea to get these people out of vulnerable situations, like horrible situations on the Greek islands where they're currently located, and relocate them across Europe. So I'm very happy that some countries are voluntarily pushing for this idea. But it's not at all enough. I mean, first of all, why are we limited to only children? There are a lot of vulnerable people there who are currently being traumatized or not receiving enough medical care on the islands and in the camps. I mean there are 42,000 people currently trapped on these islands. So I think we cannot say that this is enough.

CO: As you point out, this is Europe. One can't forget because it does seem like a no man's land of people. And you've described it for us very well just how crowded-in they are. And now, set upon by vigilantes. So what have you been seeing? What do you know is happening in those camps since you last visited?

DB: I mean, for me personally, what's really sad is that even places which really just try to provide some form of a, you know, recreational space where people could just, you know, plant some plants and maybe repair some bicycles goods, which are very important there -- are currently being set on fire. So one is called One Happy Family, which was really like a set of NGOs coming together trying to provide these safe spaces. And that has been set on fire. And there's a lot of, let's say external actors coming to the Greek islands right now trying to create this kind of stress and negative and horrible actions. So I really believe it's a huge responsibility for Europe to finally set up a system that works not only in crisis mode as like these little efforts now by the member states. But in general, there is a functioning system that doesn't create these camps in the first place.

CO: So this plan to take in 1500 children, to take them from these camps and into countries within Europe. What do you know about who might be, I guess, eligible to be relocated?

DG: So what the countries are currently saying is people that are below 14 years or 12 years and that are unaccompanied minors, that is currently, let's say, the focus group. And as I said, like, I really welcome this step because I mean, they are obviously amongst the most vulnerable people that you could imagine. But it's not sufficient. And I mean, in terms of capacity, all these big countries like my own, Germany -- they're easily able to, if you want to absorb many more or welcome many more in their own countries. So it seems a bit limited. But what they think can be politically sold.

CO: What does that mean "politically sold?"

DB: There's in all countries the fear that too welcoming policy will strengthen the right-wing. I think it's actually the other way around -- that if you would have a functioning system that welcomes people automatically, then you wouldn't have these crisis situations which then thrive the fear, this disorder, there's this lack of a system. And which then actually propels right-wing extremists. So I think it's really a bit short-sighted.

CO: But Germany took in a million people in a very short period of time in 2015, during the height of the where the crisis began for migrants and refugees. And yes, it wobbled because of that. That was a huge gesture, but it survived. The government survived. So is it not possible to absorb more of these refugees, to take them in as happened in 2015?

DB: It is obviously possible. The question is, how do you organize this? And also what happens politically if you do that? And I think I'm very convinced that if we would just set up a system that is somehow mandatory, which relocates people that arrive at the borders and then follows up with a functioning asylum process, people wouldn't even realize the numbers because they're so small at the moment. And then I think we wouldn't have a political problem. But there's a deep fear that if you set up such a system, you would strengthen parties like the AfD, which is basically a reaction to the 2015 crisis that was growing then. And you would strengthen these right-wing extremist even further and destabilize your governments. And that's why people are so reluctant. But I mean, if you look at the numbers, it's absolutely no problem to accept more people.

CO: And some are are saying that is how the refugees themselves are being used as to destabilise. Because a columnist in Canada, Doug Saunders, who talks about the weaponisation of refugees. That, first of all, the Syrian government, Bashar al-Assad, turned them into weapons. The Russians have used them to try and push them into Turkey. Turkey then pushes them -- says the doors to Europe are open, and go, and you take them. So they get used all the time in this regard, don't they?

DB: Definitely. I'm not a foreign policy expert, but from what I can see is it's clear that currently they are a bargaining chip. We have to, in Europe, at least make sure that we don't -- that this is not the case for us and that we can actually handle certain numbers of asylum seekers. Because, I mean, migration is a fact and we should be able to have a system that takes care of it. So for me, it's more important that we internally come up with a system that is functioning and then we are not as vulnerable to some form of utilizing refugees or asylum seekers. I think that's very important.

CO: Mr. Boeselager, we'll leave it there. And thank you for speaking with us.

DB: Thank you.

CO: Goodnight.

CH: Damian Boeselager is a Green MEP from Germany. He was in Brussels.

[Music]

Max von Sydow

CH: In the 50s, as a Swedish knight, he met Death and challenged him to a game of chess.

SOUNDCLIP

[Man speaking in Swedish]

CH: In the 60s, he raised Lazarus from the dead.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I am the resurrection. And the life. He that believeth in me. Though he were dead, yet shall he live.

CH: In the 70s, he exorcised the Devil from a young girl.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: See the cross of the Lord because you are...oh Lord hear my prayer.

CH: And he was also a devil himself -- as Ming the Merciless in 1980s "Flash Gordon. "

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: After the earthquakes and tidal waves, they won't be quiet the human beings you remember. They'll be more tractable, easier for you to rule.

CH: Actor Max von Sydow died on Sunday. He was 90 years old. He was born Carl Adolf von Sydow in Lund in Sweden. While serving in the army, he played the part of a flea named Max. "When critics kept misspelling my name," he explained years later, "I decided to change it and thought, Ah! Max!" After leaving the military, Mr. Von Sydow studied at the Royal Dramatic Theater in Stockholm. In 1955, he met the director who would profoundly shape his career: Ingmar Bergman. He starred in many of Mr. Bergman's films in the coming years, including "Through A Glass Darkly," and "The Virgin Spring" and, of course, "The Seventh Seal." In the early 60s, Hollywood came knocking, but Mr. von Sydow turned down a number of roles before finally accepting the part of Jesus in 1965's "The Greatest Story Ever Told." In 1988, he reflected on his reluctance to accept roles in English speaking films.

SOUNDCLIP

MAX VON SYDOW: Well, it's difficult to be a foreigner in English speaking films, because then you will remain a foreigner almost all your life. That is the problem in my situation, because I'm not an American, I'm not a Canadian, I'm not an Englishman. So I have an accent. I'm a foreigner. And in English speaking, English language films, I am the foreigner or they make me playing the foreigner. And that limits my choice of parts very much because who is the foreigner? Well, he is the villain or he is the physician or the scientist or the artist or the mad scientist or...

VICKI GABEREAU: Big on the mad scientist. Firm grasp of the mad scientist roles.

MAX VON SYDOW: Exactly. But in films in the rest of the world, like France or Italy or Spain or Germany, they immediately will dub me anyway because I do not speak those languages well enough to act in them really. I have been in a couple of French films speaking French, but again then I was the foreigner.

VICKI GABEREAU: Jesus was one of the best -- the great all-time part. I mean, it has got to be a great all-time part.

MAX VON SYDOW: Well, that depends very much. It didn't turn out the way I had hoped it would. And it did turn out the way they said it would when they convinced me to sign that contract. I understood very soon that the only way to film that story is to film it just the way you think it should be filmed and don't pay any attention to anybody else. Whatever the pope or the Bishop of Canterbury or whoever says anything, you should not pay any attention. Just do it the way you think it should be done. But George Stevens, who directed The Greatest Story Ever Told -- who was a great director, also a great cameraman -- made it into a beautiful picture book. But a fairly boring, unfortunately. And he made the mistake of trying to please everybody. And that is dangerous because you cannot.

CH: Max von Sydow speaking with the CBC's Vicki Gabereau in 1988. Of course, Mr. von Sydow brought many more memorable roles to the screen, including an English language blockbusters -- such as "Minority Report," "Star Wars," and "Game of Thrones." Oh, and "Strange Brew." And if he came to consider any of them boring, you can be sure that he never was. Max von Sydow died yesterday. He was 90.

[Music]

Part 3: Conversion therapy ban

Conversion therapy ban

Guest: Victor Szymanski

CH: It's been discredited. And not only does it not work, it's been found to be harmful. And soon, conversion therapy may also be banned across the country. Today, the federal government introduced legislation to make the controversial practice illegal. Conversion therapy aims to change the sexual orientation, gender identity, or expression of LGBT people. If passed, the bill would make it a criminal offense to cause minors to undergo the so-called therapy or to cross the Canadian border with them to undergo it abroad. Furthermore, it would ban people from advertising or profiting from it. Victor Szymanki underwent conversion therapy. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Victor, how does it feel to know this bill targeting conversion therapy has finally been introduced?

VICTOR SZYMANSKI: Well, Carol, I have to say, I feel hopeful. This is a necessary step in the right direction, which is a progressive one. And I'm feeling very hopeful for the next generation of LGBTQ people with the understanding that they won't have to go through what I went through.

CO: And that's what you were writing on Twitter, 'This legislation will ensure that nobody has to go through what I went through.' How was it introduced into your life? What were the steps that it took for you to know what conversion therapy is?

VS: Well, first and foremost, I want to say that I love my family very much and they love me very much. And that has never changed. That will never change. But I suppose if I was to be honest about how I got to know what conversion therapy was or how I became involved in it, it was through my family. My parents and most my siblings are immigrants coming from Poland. And they hold their religious views very close to their hearts. And with that comes good parts. And then, of course, there come the negative parts, which involve the more orthodox traditional belief that LGBTQ identities are in some way intrinsically disordered or wrong. So I did conversion therapy mainly at the pressure of my family.

CO: It's evident that this is difficult for me to talk about, so I'm not going to probe too much. But will you tell us anything about what it actually involved?

VS: Sure thing. So for me, what that looked like was -- I was 16 and my siblings staged this kind of intervention. It was centred around the question of Victor is gay. How do we fix this? And of course, respecting my family's traditional views, the solution to them was conversion therapy or coined by Mr. Joseph Nicolosi as 'reparative therapy' with the impetus to repair some part of me that's broken. Where I was, you know, pressured to attend these meetings every two weeks over Skype with this man in California, you know, using these misappropriated therapeutic techniques to treat something that isn't an illness. I did that every two weeks where, you know, I was encouraged to throw an unnecessary and misplaced anger at my parents and blame them essentially for the way that I am. Or even convincing me that I had crushes on some of my closest girlfriends -- it was very invasive and harmful. And it's not the kind of place where anybody really should be -- to be in a place where you think they feel like they're in some way, again, intrinsically disordered or wrong.

CO: It just sounds awful. And what you were subjected to, does that go on -- are the people that you were exposed to, are they still practicing?

VS: As far as I know, yes. My conversion therapist, I can find him on the Internet and I know many other people. I mean, with conversion therapy, it really is just any one of these pseudoscientific harmful practices that aims to change a person's sexual orientation or gender expression against their will.

CO: If the legislation that has been proposed had existed, when you are going through this, do you think you would have been spared the ordeal?

VS: That's actually a question that I've been asking myself. I want to see and read the bill more in detail. But based on the points that we know is it proposes five new criminal code offenses -- causing a minor to undergo conversion therapy. I was a minor when I started. I was 17 when I started therapy. It's not really therapy. What it is, it's emotional abuse and psychological torture. But second point being removing a minor from Canada to undergo conversion therapy abroad -- my personal experience is that I, like many endured conversion therapy with the therapist was from another country. So I would like to know the specifics around that point. But even based on the first one. I mean, yeah, causing a minor to undergo conversion therapy, I would have been protected there. And then the third point, causing a person to undergo conversion therapy against their will. I mean, when you're 18, you're technically an adult, but especially if you're a university student -- you're not independent truly. I mean, a lot of people, you know, depend on their families. So I think back on the pressure that I faced at that moment. And so, yes, this kind of legislation would have protected me from this.

CO: Just finally, if the law is passed, there are going to be legal challenges. Those who say that this law would go against the religious freedoms, free speech. What do you say to people who would challenge this bill on those grounds?

VS: That's a great question. And having a background where I was raised in quite a conservative environment, I've heard a lot of these kinds of arguments for a lot of social issues and issues revolving around justice. But if we look at the source of conversion therapy and if we look at where this comes from, if you really truly think about how this started, it started with this belief that being LGBTQ is in some way a pathology. It's in some way a sickness. Which, you know, intrinsically is wrong because there's nothing wrong with people who are LGBTQ like me. So in that case, my argument would be that one cannot invoke religious freedom to justify injustice or to justify hate.

CO: Victor we will leave it there. We'll see where this bill goes. And I appreciate you telling us your own experiences. You very generously share them with us. Thank you.

VS: Thank you so much, Carol. I really appreciate you making time for me.

CO: Take care.

VS: Take care. Bye bye.

CH: Victor Szymanski underwent conversion therapy. He's in Montreal.

[Music]

Homelessness: Jesse Thistle

Guest: Jesse Thistle

CH: Today, Jesse Thistle is an award-winning scholar, a professor at Toronto's York University, and a Canada Reads Contender for 2020. But not long ago, Mr. Thistle was living on the streets, in and out of jail, and struggling with addiction. His remarkable transformation is the heart of his Canada Reads nominated memoir "From the Ashes." And it's the basis of a commentary published today in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. Along with Metis doctor, Janet Smylie, Mr. Thistle argues that Indigenous homelessness is fundamentally different from homelessness overall. And he says that difference is too often ignored. We reached Jesse Thistle in Toronto.

CO: Jesse, first of all, in what way is homelessness different for someone who is Indigenous?

JESSE THISTLE: Well, the drivers that put people into homelessness for Indigenous are different than the general population. There's dispossession of land, there's loss of culture, destruction of domiciles, homes. All the way through, if you look at the way that indigenous people end up houseless, they have all these disconnections from relationships over time through colonial interruption. And the end result is people become houseless.

CO: When you say houseless, do you distinguish it from homeless? Or is that a progression?

JT: Yeah. No, it's the end result of homelessness. So when someone doesn't know their culture or has no concept of their kinship structure and they're not placed within their family units, I define that as homelessness. The end result usually is houselessness or sleeping without shelter in places that aren't fit for human habitation.

CO: Now know you have been speaking with many Indigenous people about their own experiences of houselessness and homelessness. And what are some of the things that they've told you that really stands out?

JT: So the most striking was how I speak with people that had gone through residential school or day schools or had been scooped, and they would describe their houselessness later in life from the earlier cultural dislocation that happened from being separated from their family at ages like four or five. And they describe their homelessness really starting when they were taken from their family unit. And I'd never heard that before. And I got to thinking about my own life because me and my brothers were let go and raised elsewhere without our culture. And I'm like, those people are actually right. And why is not that articulated in the homelessness literature? People are stuck in their boxes and thinking about homelessness as lacking a structure of habitation, when really I believe it's about a loss of healthy relationships within our worldview of accouterment or helping each other in a good way.

CO: And this comes out in your extraordinary memoir. It's called "From the Ashes: My Story of Being Metis, Homeless, and Finding My Way." And so how did the experiences of Indigenous people you spoke with, how did they compare with your own?

JT: Well, all the different dimensions of Indigenous homelessness, they appeared in my own life. Like the loss of land. That happened to my family after we were dispossessed, after the Northwest resistance. And so it really started there. And as I was looking at loss of language, loss of culture, loss of identity, not having a safe place to be within our communities, all of these things were basically layered on my life as I looked back and saw, holy cow, I essentially was homeless when I was taken from my community when I was just a young boy. And it clarified a lot of later things that happened in my life.

CO: But, you know, you were a homeless man. You were you were in jail. You were on your lowest points, you describe in your memoir. And here you are. You're a university professor. You're a scholar. You have a book that's been months on the bestseller list. So when you say "and finding my way" -- how did you find your way out of that?

JT: It was like a confluence of like systems that started to wrap around me after I got in trouble with the justice system. And it was really through jail and meeting people in jail. And then going to a place called Harvest House, which was like a rehab centre in Ottawa, where they started to give me the opportunity to choose better for myself. I could get my teeth fixed. I got my wisdom teeth taken out. I took etiquette courses and learned how to self-love. I met wonderful people that helped me get my GED and education. Really what those systems were doing is they're acting as like good relatives and wrapping around me and re-plugging me back into society. And I didn't ever have that when I was on the streets or cycling in and out of homelessness.

CO: So your own experiences have obviously informed your ability to say what needs to be done in order to help people. And these protocols -- are really, they are quite basic, aren't they? They're describing very simple ways of helping people. Can you just maybe just quickly outline these four protocols that you recommend?

JT: Yeah, these four protocols really come from Indigenous protocols of treaty making and how we're supposed to interact with one another on a basic daily level. And the one is situating. So when we do land, acknowledgements a lot of people just recognise the land and they think it ends there. But there's a second half to that. Second half of that is situating yourself as a visitor in a host community's territory, and that's been lost. And then the second one is visiting (keeoukaywin) and it's a very structure type of interaction that goes back through pre-colonial times that Indigenous people have engaged in. You know, they sit down, they give each other time, they listen, they talk to each other with an open heart. Next, beyond that is hospitality. That goes all the way back through [inaudible] law where we're actually supposed to treat each other with respect and provide for one another in each encounter that we have. And the last one is to be a good relative. And this goes way back through Indigenous worldviews. And we're trying to bring that way of thinking into the medical establishment. It might seem very basic, but it doesn't yet exist.

CO: In this Canadian Medical Association Journal piece that you co-wrote, you say that indigenous people make up about 80 percent of the homeless population in the large cities of Canada. Do you think if these protocols were adopted that those numbers could come down?

JT: I do. I have faith. I believe that, you know, if we start to see homeless people as our relatives and treat them as the knowledge carriers that they are, then we can work together as relatives to fix a lot of the broken systems and institution and peoples that populate those systems and help repair the relationships that have produced Indigenous homelessness on the ground.

CO: Jesse it's a very interesting and a very useful article, and I appreciate speaking with you about it. Thank you.

JT: Thank you very much.

CH: Jesse Thistle is the coauthor of a commentary on indigenous homelessness published today in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. He's also one of five authors whose books will be the focus of next week's Canada Reads debates -- right here on CBC Radio One. Mr. Thistle is nominated for his memoir "From the Ashes." Here he is with an excerpt.

SOUNDCLIP

JESSE THISTLE: Name, birth, date, Social Security. The shelter worker rhymed off thrusting a clipboard at me under the plexiglass. She looked like she was having a rough day. Her hair all frizzed out. I grabbed the clipboard. I don't have any idea, I said. I just got in a jail and I'm going by bus to rehab tomorrow. The chaplain bought me a ticket. I pushed my Greyhound stub against the glass. The rehabilitation centre I was going to was Harvest House -- a last chance Christian rehab that took the worst of the worst cases that no other place would touch. I know I tried calling them all from jail. Given my record, it was my only option. Olive had given me the phone number one day when I called her collect from jail, trying to set up a release plan. "I'm going to be brutally honest with you, "Jesse, she said as I scribbled down the digits. "I've known you forever, and you can't make it another season the way you are. You don't look right anymore. Please call." Olive was so optimistic, so hopeful -- she believed God could rescue people even in the most wretched of cases. So to hear her talk this way really caught my attention. I phoned Harvest House the instant I got off the phone with her and discovered that they had a GED schooling program as well as treatment. I could finish what I started and graduate high school. Plus, they take me right away. No other program would do that, that give me such hope. When I told the chaplain he bought me a one way ticket and gave me a pair of jeans and a shirt right before the jail gates open to freedom. "These don't fit," I said. "Trust me," he told me when he dropped me off at the shelter, "You'll put weight on."

CH: That's Jesse Thistle reading from his memoir "From the Ashes." It's one of five books shortlisted for Canada Reads this year. We'll have readings from all the contenders this week in anticipation of next week's battle of the books. For more on the debates, visit: cbcbooks.ca.

[Music]

Laura Smith obit

Guest: Erin Donovan

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Laura Smith's: My Bonny]

CH: She may have been born in Ontario, but Laura Smith became an East Coast musician through and through. She won two East Coast Music Awards. And for years, she called Cape Breton home, before moving to Halifax and later Mahone Bay, where she died this weekend. She was 67. In 1995, Laura Smith was Peter Gzowski's guest on "Morningside." And she talked about becoming a Maritimer -- literally and musically.

SOUNDCLIP

LAURA SMTIH: I left London, went to Toronto for eight years. And I think just going to Toronto was -- there was quite an exodus from London. There was a little coffeehouse there called Smales Pace where -- I cooked there and I was a waitress. Luke Gibson actually gave me my first gig opening for him in that little club. And, you know, I just got bored and I wanted to go to what I thought was the big city. And see if I couldn't -- I was even writing songs then. But I found I was just a little bit too...I don't know if "shy" is the word, but I just couldn't seem to get out and do my songs. I was too nervous or something. Then I met Paul Cranford, who said, why don't you come to Cape Breton? And I did. And it was really Cape Breton that where I came into my own as a performer.

PETER GZOWSKI: In what way did you start singing at ceilidhs and things?

LAURA SMTIH: Exactly. Exactly. And I had fiddles. And I learned to play the drum -- the Irish drum, the Bodhran. And people found that I sang and just -- they would be offended if I didn't offer up a tune.

CH: That's the late Laura Smith speaking with Peter Gzowski on Morningside in 1995. Ms. Smith died of cancer this weekend. She was 67 years old. She spent her last few days surrounded by friends, food and music. Erin Donovan was among those friends. We reached her in Mahone Bay.

CO: Erin, what's it like for you to hear Laura Smith's voice on that tape?

ERIN DONOVAN: It's kind of moving. I have to pull myself together a little because first of all, I've never heard that interview, but I've heard about it many times and also just the youth inner voice is so nice to hear.

CO: It's interesting also her references to being in London, Ontario. And I remember Smales Pace was what was the heartbeat of folk and country in London -- Home County Folk Festival as well. And she was the heartbeat of those places. So to hear her talk about that as well. And then course, finding her true home to Nova Scotia. And that's, I guess, where you connect with her.

ED: Yeah. And I know she did speak a lot about how the landscape just spoke to her so deeply. And I think that's probably why she was here. And, you know, she's such a poet at heart, too. And I think that's become more clear to me in the last little while. Like the poetry really drove the music. And she wrote poetry, you know, right up until the last weeks of her life. And, you know, I'm really happy to say that she even recorded a couple of new tunes that people haven't heard, which is really a gift for all of us.

CO: We know her voice. We know how she can move anyone with her songs. What was she like as a friend?

ED: She was an amazing friend and a really unique person. What's been great -- she had a lot of friends from different places. And so with her passing and everybody coming together, we've all had a chance to meet each other. And I think maybe the common denominator might be that we're all really really quirky [laughs] including Laura. Certainly everybody loves to laugh and everybody loves food. I mean, we've been thinking about just funny food stories and how she definitely would always send something back when she went to eat out, which is something when her friends got together, we all realized was another common denominator was just funny, how she always send something back. But we were recounting when she came for Hurricane Dorian. She moved up into our house overnight during the power outage. So she was making rice on the propane burner on the front, but she didn't want the element to be too hot for the rice because she's really a perfectionist with food. So the flame kept going out over and over. And I think we must have re-lit it six times just to get the rice right [chuckles].

CO: [Laughs] But you can't do that on a propane stove. It's a camp stove, right?

ED: Exactly. [Laughs] But it still had to be exactly right. You know, that was a really common quirk of hers.

CO: I wonder, though, how that translated into her musical collaborations.

ED: Oh, it's a perfect metaphor. I think, you know, when you talk to people who collaborated with her a lot, it was that people enjoyed playing with her because there's a level of musicianship was so high. And, you know, any little misstep and you'd get a look. But if something really magical happened, you'd also get a look. You just wanted to do your best all the time.

CO: How were Laura Smith's final days?

ED: You know, her final days were like her: extremely full of grace. She really just sailed her boat right out onto the horizon as smoothly as you could possibly go. And that was, I think, just like her. You know, she died at home, which is how she wanted it. And there's been a lot of music over the last couple of weeks. So you know her, a wonderful musician friends would come and play at her bedside and with her palliative care team, it was a smooth as it could possibly have been.

CO: It's interesting. You mentioned that she was writing poetry right to the end, but she also took the time through a collaborator to write about palliative care and what that meant. What did she want people to know about the treatment she had in her final weeks?

ED: I think the most important thing and we learned it together is understanding that palliative care actually improves your life quality at the end and how significant and how important that is. And there's a lot of misunderstanding. Her life quality improved dramatically at the end so that she was able to eat the food she wanted. She was able to be pain free. She was able to have the energy to be with her friends. So it's not the image a lot of people have in their head.

CO: And you told our colleagues in the Maritimes that Laura Smith went out on a cloud of love. What did you mean by that?

ED: [Chuckles] You know, just that I know that she felt, in the end, I think she felt for the first time in her life how loved she was, how supported she was, and how much she meant to people. I think she really took that in and was quite quite happy and quite content.

CO: When you say out on a cloud of love, I can't help but think of her beautiful song, "Safe Home Sweet Light." And that line in it -- she says, You are love. I mean, when she sings that line, can there be a dry eye?

ED: Well, all of her music has so many different meanings. And I think on any day of the week, you could just randomly pick one of her songs and it would unfold in a new way every time. And I think people need to go and revisit her music and do that for yourself because there's so many gifts there.

CO: Was she aware of the effect that she had?

ED: It's so interesting. It's complicated because I'd say yes and no, because one thing that struck me was I think she never could take in completely how much people did love her and appreciate her, because when we were talking about the concert, for example, because we're doing a big concert at the end of the month here, her first reaction was, "oh, will anyone come?" [Laughs] Which, you know, we all tease her about, because, of course, you know, it's a 600 seat venue that sold out in 24 hours. But in a way, I don't think she ever understood how much she was loved until the end.

CO: Well, it seems she did go out on a cloud of love. And I think we'll have to play that song with those lyrics. You are love. You are loved always. For our listeners now. And Erin, thank you so much.

ED: Okay. Thank you.

CH: Erin Donovan was a close friend of musician Laura Smith. Ms. Smith died this weekend in Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia. She was 67 years old.

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