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The AIH Transcript for October 7, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Tom Allen

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

TOM ALLEN: Good evening. I'm Tom Allen. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

TA: Tonight...

CO: Forsaken -- for whose sake. With his shocking announcement that the U.S. will stop supporting Kurdish forces in Syria, Donald Trump abandons long-time allies in the region and leaves them sitting ducks.

TA: Safe to sound. Our guest tells us how her father helped smuggle a chauffeur out of Auschwitz and how prisoners at the concentration camp were able to blow the horn in defiance of the Nazis.

CO: Take us to your leader. With two weeks left to go the Conservatives' deputy leader fills in the blanks about Andrew Scheer and explains why her party should fill the most seats.

TA: Telling tales out of school. An encore broadcast of Carol's conversation with a young Aboriginal boy from Australia who's considered a gifted healer by his community but who meets with rejection in the school system.

CO: All the rage. The late Ginger Baker became a superstar for his energy behind the kit with Cream, Fela Kuti, and more -- but in his volatile personal life he was the different drummer he marched to.

TA: And meeting is such sweet sorrow. After some controversy in Quebec the province says it will not ban the use of a common bilingual greeting -- to the relief of our guest who's about to open a place called "Cafe Bonjour/Hi." As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that hopes he'll hors d'oeuvres appetizers, vinaigrette salad dressing, and omelettes...uh, omelettes.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: U.S. Syria pullout

U.S. Syria pullout

Guests: Martin Chulov

TA: U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to pull troops out of northeastern Syria hasn't just shocked his critics, it shocked top Republicans as well. Even Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell who usually quietly supports the president said today that the decision to abandon Kurdish forces in Syria would, quote, "only benefit Russia, Iran, and the Assad regime." Turkey's president however is delighted by the news. He sees Kurdish forces in Syria, which are backed and supported by American forces in the fight against ISIS, as terrorist militants. And now Recep Tayyip Erdogan has vowed to take over Syria's northeast and wipe out those Kurdish forces in the process. Martin Chulov is the Guardian's Middle East correspondent. We reached him in Beirut.

CO: Martin has the Kurdish leadership in Syria completely lost faith in the United States with this decision by President Trump?

MARTIN CHULOV: Well earlier in the day it certainly looked that way. The Kurdish leaders were putting out statements demanding explanations. And there was widespread despair about how the U.S. could leave them hanging as the Turks were threatening to invade.

CO: You used the word in your column "betrayal." How so?

MC: I think it's a betrayal by any objective test. The Kurds and the Americans had partnered for long grinding years in the fight against the Islamic State. The Kurds have been the proxy force. The Americans had given them air support, artillery support, and all sorts of other fire support. But the Kurds of the province paid the price. They took 11,000 casualties and many thousands more wounded. And they did expect that the partnership which had been forged in battle would endure especially when a foe as powerful as Turkey was threatening to invade -- the last thing they expected was an announcement from the US commander-in-chief that the U.S. would effectively be gone by lunchtime the next day and the Kurds would have to fend for themselves.

CO: But does it come as a complete surprise because he has floated this before and President Trump has declared that ISIS has been defeated, the purpose of the U.S. troops in Syria and in the region is no longer important. And wasn't inevitable that they would withdraw?

MC: A couple of things on that. The ISIS may well have been defeated on the battlefield but its members are being contained in four large camps in northeastern Syria all of which the Kurds -- that the Americans fought with -- are now acting his jailers over. So there are 80 to 90 thousand people there. Among them are irreconcilables, hard-wired ideologues, and they do intend to maintain the fight in any way they can. They pose a clear security risk beyond the region if they can escape. So there has to be a collective interest in keeping them where they are until the world can work out how to deal with them. But beyond that if the Americans did want to part ways with the Kurds it might not have been a convenient partnership for the long term. There are ways to do it -- a negotiated exit. Not just abandon them at the very point that their worst enemy is about to attack them and about to overrun all the territory that they've fought for.

CO: What is Turkey poised to do and what's this deal that Mr. Trump has made with Mr. Erdogan?

MC: Well very few know that including in his administration because they were as blindsided as the rest of us. The Turkish president woke up this morning to hear that he's now going to be in charge of the ISIS camp. And it would be difficult to see how the Turkish president would want to take control of these camps. They are a nightmare in waiting. They will take an awful lot of security and distract Turkey from its core goals which fundamentally are moving Kurds away from the border and replacing them with Arabs.

CO: We know one of those ISIS camps 'Al-Hawl' holds about 70,000 people alone. And many of them are foreigners, there are ISIS supporters, and hard-wired ideologues as you call them. So what happens to them? What are the chances that those people get unleashed?

MC: Parts of the camp are unreachable to Kurdish guards. There are corners there which are deeply radical so parts of the Al-hawl camp and the camp further north are being used for ISIS to regenerate and to regroup. They are kept in some cases just by a simple wire fence. There have been attempts to smuggle people out -- some of them successful, others have been caught. But some ISIS members have made their way out and that is in times when the Kurdish guards had an incentive to actually keep them there. If the Americans do in fact depart, the Kurds will be distracted and they will have less incentive to safeguard Western interests so it just stands to reason that there could well be a security vacuum which would revitalize the ISIS insurgency that the Trump administration claims has been defeated.

CO: What does this tell us about -- I don't know -- the world view, the foreign policy, of Donald Trump at this point? What does it show if we can see priorities or a plan here -- what does it tell you?

MC: I think it reflects the core so-called values of the Trump administration -- in foreign policy or in the world or in human nature. There are suckers and there are champions. And certainly the Trump administration has considered the U.S. to be a sucker for the post-World War Two world order which is more or less been handwritten by liberal values which had been anchored by the U.S. He seems to think that the U.S. has reached a little dividend from that and he's putting his administration on a thoroughly transactional footing where he's only going to act in what he perceives to be the United States' narrow interests.

CO: So generally -- for the region -- how destabilising is this decision?

MC: Very very much so. It's one of the more consequential decisions in recent times in this region. The U.S. has played a lead role and it has been seen in many quarters as being a global power that is prepared to support friends and allies, to take declared positions and stick by them -- even if they're wrong. They've certainly been seen as a significant force here. This no longer is being seen as a superpower with a coherent policy or even a direction that people can define and that does not make for a reliable partner. And it's forcing new alliances to be rapidly formed.

CO: Finally to swing back to the Kurds themselves. What does this mean for them? What might be the worst case scenario for Kurdish forces in that region?

MC: Well the Kurds have always been between -- geographically between -- the Turks and the Syrian regime in Damascus and they've been using the Americans in the last four years as a buffer between both. But with the Americans gone the decision for the Kurds seems to be quite straightforward. They will likely make some outreach to the Syrian regime in Damascus to ally with them to use the Syrian regime to protect them from the Turkish invasion. I think that seems to be their diplomatically in coming days. And I do think that delegations will be travelling to Damascus to launch those discussions in coming weeks.

CO: All right. Martin we'll leave it there. We really appreciate this tonight. Thank you.

MC: You're welcome.

TA: Martin Chulov is the Middle East correspondent for The Guardian. We reached him in Beirut.

[Music]

Lisa Raitt

Guest: Lisa Raitt

TA: This could be Andrew Scheer's defining moment. Or the Conservative leader could complete the federal election without revealing what makes him tick. Mr. Scheer and his party now have just two weeks to convince Canadians they should replace Justin Trudeau's Liberals in power. The scrutiny on the campaign has been intense. But many voters still have lingering questions about what Andrew Scheer believes and what he would do with all that power. We requested an interview with the Conservative leader. The Conservative campaign agreed to have Lisa Raitt, the deputy leader, represent the party. Ms. Raitt joined us from the CBC's Sydney, Nova Scotia studio.

CO: Ms. Raitt this election campaign was supposed to give us all a good chance to get to know Andrew Scheer. Why do you think he has so much trouble opening up?

LISA RAITT: I don't know. I mean -- I don't know if he has had trouble opening up. I know that he has done videos. He's talked about his family. He has done a commercial where he shows where he grew up and what matters to him. And he continues to engage people. If you're on the road with him and if you go to these events, he spends lots of time with individuals. And some of our people would say he spends too much time talking to individuals and he's really good one-on-one. And I think he should just keep doing what he's doing which is communicating through his meetings and communicating through the media of who he is and making sure his candidates out there like me are talking about who he is.

CO: And you say that you think he has communicated what matters to him -- and yet at the same time here is a very very important thing to him which is he's very pro-life. He has stated that many times. And yet so reluctant to come out on the campaign trail and say that. So if he is willing to talk about and wants to talk about what matters to him, why doesn't he talk about that?

LR: You know I can't speak for Andrew. But I would make one comment that in a hyper politicized kind of world and election, it is oftentimes difficult for people to take a stance which is not viewed as being popular. And I don't know if that's his reasoning. But one thing Carol I am hearing on the doorsteps and in some cases why people don't want to take signs or they don't want to tell you how they are voting is they don't want to draw attention to their vote because they don't want to get in arguments with other people.

CO: Why do you think it's so nasty?

LR: I'd love to know why. Maybe because it's so tight in the polls. Maybe because that's what happens when people decide that there's no record to run on, we're not going to talk about policy necessarily. I think the Liberals and the Conservatives and the NDP and the Greens of course, we've put out some fair amount of policy. There's a lot of policy out there to chew over and discuss -- on taxes, on climate. But at the end of the day the stuff that's catching the attention of the media that is leading in most of the media reporting has to do with personal matters. And I find that to be...I think people are pretty sick of it.

CO: But I listened carefully -- you didn't point a finger and say it's nasty because the Liberals are doing it. There has been dirt flinging in all directions. There are personal attacks. There's past stories on both sides. So it's a free for all. Would you not say?

LR: I am not pointing the finger at any one party in terms of what is being discussed and for candidates that they may have had and candidates that we may have had. It just seems to be that it's a 'gotcha' kind of campaign as opposed to something that is being discussed at the doors in terms of policy. And as a result voters are turned off.

CO: But that gotcha-ism is directed. It's not just that people are doing it ad hoc. That's being directed by those who are running these campaigns. Those things that come out about Justin Trudeau or the things that come out about Andrew Scheer are coming from the centre of these campaigns. Is that not the case?

LR: Would appear that even before the writ was dropped there was a cabinet minister, Ralph Goodale, putting out a piece of tape from Andrew Scheer when he was a very young member of parliament. So that started there and the newspapers have been reporting, they've been given information. And as I said like we're talking about it now Carol everybody wants to talk about either what has happened or whether or not we should be talking about these kinds of personal issues. And it's really taken over the entire campaign.

CO: My first question to you was about Mr. Scheer opening up. And then when you say that yes there is this personal information coming out. But it's how different people respond to that personal information. And we learned that Andrew Scheer is a dual citizen -- he's an American, and he didn't tell us that before. In the past he and your party has attacked Tom Mulcair and Stephane Dion for dual citizenship. It's the hypocrisy that actually becomes the issue, does it not?

LR: There's a lot of hypocrisy flying in this election campaign. And I would say as well, one thing that I did note when there was a discussion about Andrew's dual citizenship -- when he came out and he said I've already started the process of revoking his citizenship, the questions continued on from the media and they went very deep, it was: whether or not he had filed taxes, whether or not he registered for the draft. I mean that to me indicates that there's a desire to keep that kind of issue alive. And that's where Canadians say you know enough, he said he has it, he said he's trying to get rid of it, and let's just move on from there.

CO: I want to go back to the pro-life issue which Mr. Scheer -- and he has said it elsewhere, hasn't he -- I mean he said when he was campaigning for leadership, he says I've always voted in favor of pro-life legislation. He also has said in that statement that he believes 100 percent that members of parliament have the right to bring forward legislation that's important to them and that on matters of conscience they will have a free vote. So even though your party has said -- Mr. Scheer has said -- the government would not reopen that debate if there were a Conservative government. Has he not left the back door open for a Conservative to introduce legislation that gets voted by Conservatives?

LR: It'll never pass. Any kind of legislation that you're referring to from a private member will not pass through a Conservative government period. We showed that with respect to the Stephen Harper government since 2006. And Andrew has said it clearly and I've said it clearly and everybody has said it clearly and that's the clear understanding. There is not going to be any legislation that is going to pass that is going to take away any rights that a woman has, period. And I'm very comfortable saying that.

CO: How do you know that?

LR: Because I'm going to be there Carol. I'm going to be there. And I believe it. And it's an important part of me being a Conservative. And we understand that to be the case. And that's what I'm running on and I'm very passionate about the fact that we stay and do exactly what we say and what we're going to do.

CO: But we have seen -- there are a number of Conservative candidates who are running who are anti-abortion. And so is it not possible if legislation gets introduced as Mr. Scheer said that he would allow, does that not open the door for that possibility?

LR: No. Numbers don't work. You can crack the numbers any way you want to crack it, there's no way that a private member's bill is going to pass through the House of Commons on this issue. There's no way it will go through Senate. There's no way this law is ever going to be changed. Period. And that's I get so heated when I see this issue continuously coming up because it is a complete red herring and I believe it's a wedge issue that the Liberals want to use. And I get offended when they continue to use it because quite frankly I don't want to watch four guys talking about abortion rights.

CO: Here's another way that it gets introduced -- and we know about Molly's Law. Molly's Law was a private member's bill that would give legal recognition to what it calls in the bill the pre-born child. And Mr. Scheer has said about that, that he was proud to support Molly's Law and that it is an important piece of legislation. And he'd like to see it before the House again. So is it not possible that we would have a law that would come through Mr. Scheer that would give legal rights to a pre-born child -- and that's quotation -- and that would be included in the criminal code as Molly's Law offered?

LR: And as a lawyer I can tell you that any kind of legislation being proposed as a private member's bill would be reviewed by Justice especially when you're in the government and advice would be given as to whether or not it's going to impinge on a woman's right to choose. And if it does then Andrew's promise that it will not pass holds.

CO: But he himself says he was proud to support it and he would like to see that legislation -- Molly's Law -- reintroduced before the House of Commons. What does that say?

LR: I heard what you said Carol and what I said is if any private member's bill is determined by Justice Canada to be something that is infringing upon a woman's right as we have said over and over again then it's not going to be voted in favor by the government. Andrew has said that.

CO: In 2017 also Andrew Scheer said when he was campaigning that he was making sure the recent euthanasia laws were tightened and restricted as much as possible. That's a quote. Quebec Court says the rules that are in place are unconstitutional and prevent people who face from suffering from getting medical help in dying. Would you support tightening of those laws as Mr. Scheer would like?

LR: I support the Supreme Court of Canada looking at the decision because that is where we received our first parameters of what medically assisted death legislation should look like. And that was what our parliament considered. And if the Supreme Court says they uphold the decision of the Quebec Court then the Supreme Court will give us further direction as parliamentarians to what the new legislation will have to look like and that will be an exercise for any government in the next parliament.

CO: In the time we have left I want to turn to -- as you point out, on the campaign trail you're hearing what people are really concerned about. We're hearing from many people that get on with it and talk about what matters which for many of them is climate change and responsibilities that we have as a country. Why isn't Andrew Scheer committing more to the issue of climate change responsibilities under the Paris Agreement?

LR: Well what we're talking about is how to get there. There's lots of governments like the Trudeau government who make grand promises and say they're going to get there somehow but don't fill in the details of exactly how they're going to get there. We've taken a different approach which is here are the ways in which we're going to reduce emissions. We're going to use technology, we're going to put a cap on big polluters, and we don't think that Canadian citizens should be the ones shouldering the expense associated with people changing their behaviors. And we've set out how we're going to do it and that's entailed in our climate platform that we released back in May and June. So we are taking the approach of: here are the steps that we're going to do it, here is how it's going to impact real life Canadians, and we're putting it in your hands to help us get to where we want to get to.

CO: And yet all kinds of assessments -- comparative assessments -- with the others have given the Conservatives the lowest marks. This is from economists, from scientists, who are saying that the Conservatives cannot and will not meet those targets given what the -- and the information we have is they say vague at this point. But that in fact the arguments are that the Conservatives would actually increase emissions. What do you say to that?

LR: What I say to that is that these are analysis that are based upon modeling in the future. They're based upon a carbon tax being of a certain level and that carbon tax price has not been honestly been disclosed to Canadian public by the Liberals for them to get to where they want to get in terms of emissions. They have to move that carbon price up so that it would essentially be 30 cents higher for a litre of gas in this country. And that is something Canadians need to understand. So they are getting top marks for their climate plan as a result of them imposing a carbon tax which is supposed to deter people and change their behavior. But unless that carbon tax is at a level that actually deters behavior they're not going to get the results that they're projecting.

CO: If I'm understanding correctly you're saying that a tax on carbon -- carbon pricing actually works?

LR: Well let me back it up for one second. What I'm saying is this is that the people who are reviewing the Liberal plan versus the Conservative plan of which the big change -- the big difference -- is going to be that carbon tax, the ones that are reviewing that use simulation and they take a look at the perfect version of what a carbon tax is which is an amount of carbon price that will deter people's behavior. And what I'm saying is that will not be an accurate analysis if the policy is going to be workable because the Liberals aren't charging enough.

CO: Okay. But you're saying that it works -- it is just that they should go further if they want to make it work. If you think it's wrong to have a carbon tax you say well if they want to have a carbon tax make it work they should go further. And so it does work then?

LR: What I'm saying is the people who are reviewing these plans believe that a carbon tax works. The people who review the plans believe that the carbon tax works and will reduce emissions. What I'm saying is that the carbon tax as proposed by the Liberals isn't going to work. And the people reviewing the plan don't take that into consideration. But they're already coming in believing that a carbon tax works.

CO: I've watched you in your career for many years. I've seen the kinds of hits you've taken as a woman, I've seen them as a cabinet minister, as a Conservative. In all respects you have stood up to that and you have continued to speak your truth. I just wonder at this point, in this election campaign, how discouraged you are by politics?

LR: It's not a great election. I have to say. It's not a great election for me. And I think for a lot of candidates who would prefer to be talking about policy and how to serve their constituents it can almost be frustrating that the bigger issues that are leading the news are issues like the ones that we've talked about in this interview -- about going back into the past for what people have said as opposed to looking at what people have stated now is the policy of the party and moving forward. But this is the last two weeks Carol and I do believe that it's going to continue in this vein for the next two weeks.

CO: All right I'm going to lose you in about 20 seconds so I'm going to say goodbye to you in Sydney and thank you.

LR: Thank you Carol. Good talking to you.

TA: Lisa Raitt is the Conservative Party's Deputy Leader. She was in our Sydney, Nova Scotia studio earlier today. We have requested interviews with all of the major party leaders. Stay tuned. We've got more in the works for later in the campaign.

[Music]

Ginger Baker

TA: Two bass drums. Tom-toms at an impossible angle. Cymbals floating all around him. Ginger Baker's drum kit was idiosyncratic but an unconventional sound requires an unconventional setup. The legendary British drummer died on Sunday. He was 80-years-old. He could play just about any kind of music. But Mr. Baker was best known for his work with the rock band Cream -- who sold millions with hits like "Strange Brew" and "White Room." Their sound was a template for what would become the power trio and the supergroup. And on Cream's lesser known tracks Mr. Baker's unconventional drumming really shone like on "Toad" from the band's 1966 debut -- one of the first extended drum solos on record. Outside of jazz, drum solos on record were rare. But then Ginger Baker had come up playing jazz. And after Cream's messy breakup, he credited that jazz background for his ability to play with everyone from Paul McCartney to Fela Kuti to Charlie Haden. Mr. Baker's talent was legendary and so was his temper. In the opening scene of the 2012 documentary "Beware of Mr. Baker" the drummer attacks the filmmaker with a metal cane. That wasn't unusual. Musicians are nearly unanimous in their description of a difficult sometimes drug fueled maniac. But they're also unanimous in their praise of just how brilliant Ginger Baker could be.

[Music]

Part 2: 'Tell the world': Shofar smuggled out of Auschwitz to sound in NYC for Yom Kippur

Auschwitz Shofar

Guest: Judy Tydor Schwartz

TA: This week, for Yom Kippur, Jews around the world will mark the end of the fast by blowing a shofar. But at one New York synagogue the horn that sounds in the present will have powerful echoes of the past. The shofar was smuggled in and out of Auschwitz. And as a sign of defiance it may also have been used by prisoners to mark the Jewish New Year 75 years ago. Judy Tydor Schwartz is a Holocaust expert. Her late father was a prisoner in Auschwitz and obtained the shofar in 1945. We reached Mr. Tydor Schwartz in Ramat Gan, Israel.

CO: Judy can you just take us back to Rosh Hashanah in 1944 when your father was in Auschwitz. How did he first hear about this shofar?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: Well my father was a work dispatcher in Auschwitz 3 which was also called Auschwitz Monowitz -- it's about five miles away from the main camp. Prayer and gatherings of any kind were of course impossible to do in such a camp. But he knew that if he would send religious or orthodox prisoners who wanted to pray far away from the centre of the main camp there was a good chance there would be fewer guards watching them. So he sent as many people as he could to such a faraway commando and when they came back one of his friends said Chaskel you won't believe it somebody had a shofar. Somebody blew a shofar on Rosh Hashanah.

CO: Wow. What would have been the consequences had that shofar sounding been heard by the guards?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: They would've been killed on the spot. They would be shot because the Nazi idea was that if you see a group of prisoners together they're planning a revolt you kill them.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit about a shofar and what it does and when sounding it what does that evoke?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: A shofar is a ram's horn which is used as part of the Jewish ritual on Rosh Hashanah -- the New Year -- and on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. It's a combination of like a battle cry on the one hand. But what you're supposed to be battling is metaphoric. In other words the purpose of hearing the shofar is to make somebody repent from their bad deeds, stop, think, and to go into their heart and say what did I do? Who am I? Who do I really want to be? It's supposed to go deep into somebody's heart.

CO: We have some sound of I think this shofar that we're talking about. And let's hear that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Shofar sound]

CO: Wow! That's quite strong. And it's been said that this is an expression of Jewish hope. Is that right?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: Yes. Yes. There is something about that. It sounded at the end of the Yom Kippur services after 25 hours of fasting and prayer. And Yom Kippur is supposed to be the final day of divine judgment when every soul comes before the heavenly throne and it was decided whether a person should live or should die, what would happen to them during that year.

CO: And to make that sound -- to blast that horn -- in the most dangerous of all places, what would it have meant for those who were there?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: People who heard it they said that it gave them incredible strength, incredible moral-spiritual -- spiritual not only in the religious sense, in the sense that I'm a human being. After all what the Nazis wanted to do with their prisoners, they wanted to wipe out their humanity. In Auschwitz people had numbers tattooed on their arm. They were numbers. They were no longer human beings. Hearing a shofar reminded them that they were human beings. This is really dangerous. This is much more dangerous than trying to light a secret candle for Hanukkah or something like that. This is a noise.

CO: It's not just that it's a loud sound. It's also an object. Do you know how they were able to hide this Ram's Horn?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: Well what we figure is that this specific camp -- Auschwitz 3 -- was a labor camp and the prisoners who were working there worked alongside Polish civilians who were basically inducted into working for the Nazis. And we know that if these were the days around the High Holidays, the Jews of Hungary were being deported at that time but they were told that they were being deported to force labor in the east. Nobody really thought they were going to die. Obviously there must have been people -- we know absolutely for a fact -- that there were people who came to Auschwitz who had a shofar. Now of course all their possessions were taken away from them and they were put into a warehouse. And for somebody to smuggle it out of there and into Buna (Auschwitz 3) it must have cost a tremendous price. And in those days bread was worth more than money.

CO: How did your father come to be in possession of it? Because he wasn't at that procession. How did he get it?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: So my father knew of the shofar but had never seen it. Three months later all the prisoners in Auschwitz were marched out of the camp onto what was called 'The Death March.' As they were setting out for this march when they were still in the camp, my father said that a prisoner came over to him and put something into his hands. And it was the shofar that was wrapped with rags. And this prisoner said I'm not going to survive, I'm dying, you're stronger than I am -- maybe you'll survive, this is the shofar, take it, and if you make it out tell the world we had a shofar here in Auschwitz.

CO: It's been with your family for all these years. Why now? Why are you going to have this in the Museum of Jewish Heritage?

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: Well that's a story of its own. From the time my father was liberated, he blew this shofar on Rosh Hashanah and it was just part of the family. This was Grandpa's shofar. However this past year an incredible exhibition called "Auschwitz. Not long ago. Not far away." opened at the Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York City. And the chief curator and historian behind this exhibition Professor Robert Jan van Pelt did me the tremendous honor of taking me around the exhibition. And towards the end there is a beautiful room called Spiritual Resistance. And I walked into the room and there was only basically one artifact there. And Robert Jan said to me you know there's very little that we have of religious artifacts from the Holocaust -- nobody really has things like that from Auschwitz. And without thinking I said Oh yeah I do. And he just looked at me and he said, you what?! And said I have a shofar from Auschwitz at home. He looked at me in total astonishment and he said please can you lend this to us. And without thinking I said yes of course. And it is now on exhibit with my father's story written up on the wall. I feel that by doing it, by telling the story of the shofar, that I am truly honoring my father and my father's memory. To be able to do that almost 27 years after he's gone is an incredible incredible thing.

CO: Judy this is an extraordinary story of hope. And I really appreciate you sharing it with us. Thank you.

JUDY TYDOR SCHWARTZ: You're welcome and thank you for the opportunity.

TA: Judy Tydor Schwartz is a Holocaust expert, and directs Holocaust research at Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Israel -- which is where we reached her. Her father safeguarded a shofar that was smuggled out of Auschwitz in 1945. It's currently on display at the Museum of. Jewish Heritage in New York. And you can see that shofar and read more on the story at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Valerie Plante

TA: A report today concluded what many Montrealers already know -- if you're a person of colour you're more likely to be stopped by police. The report found that Indigenous people and black people were four or five times more likely to be stopped. Indigenous women were 11 times more likely. Montreal's mayor Valerie Plante told reporters she was shocked by those results and called on the police service to take immediate action. Here's part of what she said about why this is stunning to her but a well-known reality for others.

SOUNDCLIP

VALERIE PLANTE: Maybe there was definitely a disconnect between the elected official, the police force, and maybe the population in general. So to me this is a very positive thing that we are making sense with or we're telling stories of people that maybe don't feel safe because of who they are. And to me this is -- yes, troubling -- yes, shocking but I'm dedicated into moving forward. I don't want Montrealers to feel like they're not safe in our city which is a safe city. But if it's not the case for some Montrealers we have a problem. We have to move forward. And again it is definitely the responsibility of Service de Police de la Ville de Montreal. But it is also my responsibility as Mayor of Montreal saying this is a priority, we need to change this because we went through a big crisis of -- a trust crisis. And we're kind of getting out of it. But this is something that is kind of taking us down. And so we need to look at it and just take full responsibility whoever it is to who we are as individual in those different organization and to act in a positive way.

TA: That's Montreal mayor Valerie Plante speaking at a news conference today about a report that found people of colour in Montreal are significantly more likely to be stopped by police.

[Music]

William Kaelin Jr.

TA: A member of the Nobel Assembly said, quote, "Scientists often toss around this phrase 'textbook discovery.' But I'd say this is really a textbook discovery." He was talking about the work of three scientists who this morning learned that they had won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. William Kaelin Jr., Peter Radcliffe, and Greg Semenza were awarded for, quote, "their discoveries of how cells sense and adapt to oxygen availability." After Dr. Kaelin heard the good news this morning he spoke with NobelPrize.org's Adam Smith, about the moment he learned he had won.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM SMITH: Were you sleeping or...

WILLIAM KAELIN JR: Oh I was absolutely sound asleep. And I'm still in a state of shock so I hope I'll speak coherently.

ADAM SMITH: You sound very coherent at the moment.

WILLIAM KAELIN JR: [Laughs] Every scientist in the world dreams of this possibility and knows what today is. But if you are realistic you don't think it's really going to happen. So I try to treat it like any other night. And so I was asleep.

ADAM SMITH: May I ask you what your first reaction was on hanging up the phone after hearing?

WILLIAM KAELIN JR: I was -- again -- I am in a state of shock. It's obviously absolutely wonderful news but my heart is still racing and I think it's all just sinking in. And unfortunately I lost my wife several years ago so I live alone...

ADAM SMITH: Sorry.

WILLIAM KAELIN JR: ...and my first thought was that this was something -- if it did happen I wanted to share with her. But I'm just terribly honored and I'm glad I can share this with so many people scientifically and otherwise who supported me throughout the years.

TA: That was Harvard Medical School professor Dr. William Kaelin Jr. speaking earlier today after he learned that he and his colleagues had won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

[Music]

Bonjour/Hi Café

Guest: Dave Plant

TA: Quebec's Minister for the French Language says the province will not be saying "Au revoir/goodbye" to the common greeting: "Bonjour/Hi." The announcement comes just a few days after the ministry warned, quote, "everything was on the table" when it came to discouraging use of the bilingual greeting -- which is especially common in Montreal. Dave Plant is the owner of Dave Plant Food in Montreal's Gay Village. And he is the relieved soon-to-be owner of another business that he's planning on naming "Cafe Bonjour/Hi." We reached Mr. Plant in Montreal.

CO: Dave, Bonjour/Hi.

DAVE PLANT: Hello.

CO: [Laughs] How relieved are you to learn that the Quebec government won't be making the use of that greeting I just gave -- Bonjour/Hi -- it's not going to be illegal?

DP: I mean relieved. Like personally I find it troubling. Like anytime a government tries to ban words or tell you what to wear you know it's kind of an issue. But I mean anybody who pays attention knows that like they can't do this stuff. Everyone knows it was political stunt.

CO: But you live in Quebec and the office of the French language in Quebec has been issuing decrees and rules and changes for years now -- including, many for restaurants and their menus. So it wouldn't have been impossible to find that Bonjour/Hi was something that they were going to outlaw?

DP: Yeah sure I mean everybody hears about the other stuff but like it's not an issue here in Montreal. Like we've had one customer out of two years of saying Bonjour/Hi come in and actually have a problem.

CO: How did you come to decide to name your cafe Bonjour/Hi?

DP: I couldn't figure out a name. And one of my staff members -- I was asking, I'm like 'Guys I need something. I need some help here with the name.' And she was here when this client came in before and sort of made us think -- she's like oh you should just call it Bonjour/Hi. And it kind of stuck. I mean we're going to be in a sort of touristy area almost downtown Montreal so I wanted something a little bilingual that's easy to read for tourists or whoever. And yeah like I don't mind getting into the political discourse a little bit. So I thought it was kind of cheeky and funny but I mean we chose the name like a month ago and it wasn't exactly a hot topic per se.

CO: Well there are concerns for people. They do say that Bonjour/Hi as a greeting in Montreal is apparently double now than what it was in 5 or 10 years ago and that they fear the French only greetings are getting fewer and that people are moving in this direction. That does worry people in Quebec who want to protect the language, do you appreciate that?

DP: Yeah I appreciate that. I understand there's a history here. My girlfriend is -- she is Quebecois. We've been together for a long time and most of her family lives in Trois-Rivieres. So it's not like I just spent all my time in Montreal. I mean the statistic is that the amount of use is growing but I mean is that statistic really that important? Like shouldn't the more important statistic be like businesses that only serve in English? I mean I think that's much more of an issue than a little greeting. We have a bilingual team. We're going to have newspapers and magazines both in French and English. We're going to conform to all the rules regulations for Bill 101 which I think are important and help preserve the language and culture here. I'm all for that. So I mean the Bonjour/Hi specifically I find it a little ridiculous. I mean if somebody has an issue with it I'm more than happy to discuss with them face to face why like it's an issue to them and why we don't think it's that big of a deal. I'd like there to be more discussion between people instead of this divisiveness that happens in our politics and every province -- not just here.

CO: And what's on the menu at Bonjour/Hi?

DP: Oh we are not even open yet. I don't even know. [Laughter] We got all these bad reviews and I'm not even open yet. I'm not sure.

CO: Oh you got a lot of publicity.

DP: A lot yeah. I mean it's been pretty crazy. You always see that happen to people where it's like you know there is some sort of controversy or something and then it's really strange when it happens to you. I wasn't expecting this.

CO: I'm sure you are going to have a good cup of coffee at Bonjour/Hi though I guess.

DP: Oh absolutely. We're going to have all local third wave roasters -- we're really taking it seriously.

CO: Well good luck with your cafe.

DP: Hey thanks Carol. I'm a big fan by the way.

CO: Thank you so much Dave. Take care.

DP: Take care.

TA: Dave Plant owns Dave Plant Food in Montreal and will soon own another establishment called Cafe Bonjour/Hi. On Friday the Quebec government signaled it was looking for ways to discourage the use of Bonjour/Hi as a greeting although it now says legislation is off the table. It's not the first time the province has become embroiled in a linguistic debate over food. Back in 2013 the Office Québécois de la langue francaise famously warned restaurateur Massimo Lecas that the use of Italian words like "pasta" on his menu could get him into trouble with the law. And just two years after that Mr. Lecas spoke with Carol about the province's attempt to replace the English term "foodie" with a French equivalent.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Massimo what is Quebec's new word for "foodie?"

MASSIMO LECAS: Unfortunately it doesn't roll off my tongue easily as of now. Something along the lines of [Attempting to say: Cuisinomane] or something like that. Sounds like a superhero if you ask me: Cuisinomane! [Laughter]

CO: And I don't think I need to ask you what do you think of the new word.

MASSIMO LECAS: It's not what I think of the new word it's what I think about all the attraction that we're getting once again for these cockamamie ideas that we come up with and unfortunately represent all of us and it represents Quebec and Montreal and they always like come back and defend themselves on flaws and missteps that they do. And you know what? We lag so far behind when it comes to just the common French language that we don't need to attack ourselves on making up names replacing hamburger, souvlaki, pizza, pasta, foodie. And why are we attacking ourselves on such things? If we just try to defend the language and make sure that it's protected and it's used in the workplace and it is our official language -- fine, I'll live with all of that.

CO: Are you a foodie?

MASSIMO LECAS: [Laughs] I happen to be one of that.

CO: But do you see yourself as a cuisinomane?

MASSIMO LECAS: [Laughs] I guess I'm a one day old cuisinomane because I just found out about it today. So let me let me get comfortable with that term.

TA: Massimo Lecas is the co-owner of Buonanotte Restaurant in Montreal. He spoke with Carol on As It Happens back in 2015 about Quebec's efforts to make "cuisinomane" happen.

[Music]

Emily Zamourka

TA: A single subway performance made her an underground sensation. Last week we spoke with Emily Zamourka -- a homeless woman who became famous for serenading Los Angeles commuters on a subway platform. She now has a GoFundMe with more than 65,000 dollars contributed so far, and job offers keep flowing in. The first of which came from the local city councillor to pay her to perform at an event over the weekend. Here's what Emily Zamourka sounded like on Saturday when she performed the aria that made her famous. It's our sound of the day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Emily Zamourka singing an Italian aria]

TA: Our sound of the day: homeless singer Emily Zamourka singing the Italian aria that made her a viral sensation last week.

[Music]

Part 3: Wildfire causes 80% fish loss in Colorado river, survey finds

Encore feature: In My Blood It Runs Hot Doc

TA: Dujuan Hoosan is a pretty remarkable kid. He's insightful. He's learning two Indigenous languages. And he's a healer -- an important responsibility inherited from his ancestors. We first told you about the Australian boy in the spring when a documentary made in collaboration with his family screened in Toronto. Here he is in a scene from that film speaking one evening as he sat by a fire and watched fireworks.

SOUNDCLIP

DUJUAN HOOSAN: I was born an Aboriginal kid. That means that I had a memory -- a memory about Aboriginals. I just felt something -- a memory. History, in my blood, it runs.

TA: Dujuan Hoosan reflecting on his Indigenous heritage in a documentary called "In My Blood It Runs." But while Dujuan's family can see his determination and intelligence, his school is another story. There he's mostly met with indifference, failure, and rejection. Tonight, we bring you an encore of the feature interview Carroll did in April with Dujuan Hoosan, his mother -- Megan Hoosan -- and the film's director, Maya Newell. They gathered in the As It Happens studio.

CO: Well, a big welcome to the “As It Happens” studio to this crowd. We have Dujuan. Hello, Dujuan.

DH: Hello.

CO: And we have your mom; Megan is here.

MEGAN HOOSAN: Hello.

CO: And your dad, Jim.

JAMES MAWSON: Hello.

CO: And the filmmaker, Maya.

MAYA NEWELL: Hi, nice to be here.

CO: Well, great to have you all here. And what's interesting about this film is that though Maya is I guess the sort of initiator, you're collaborating. This is everyone is part of the direction — all of you in the family. And that's really important to this documentary. And so I am going to ask you Maya, first of all, why you wanted to make this documentary?

MN: Sure. So over the last 10 years or so, I've been traveling to Alice Springs, which is where the film is set, which is right in the middle of the desert in Australia, working for an organization. And over those years, I had such a privileged opportunity to sit with Aboriginal elders as they were teaching their kids songlines, and going out on country. And they’re kids that speak maybe two, three, or four Aboriginal languages. And you know healers are so confident. And then they were going into the Western school system there, and they were being told they were failures, or treated as failures at school. And this felt like this was such an injustice in a way. And it's not surprising because kids are measured by Western values, and only taught in English, which is how I understand it's quite similar in Canada. And I suppose this film grew out of those relationships over those many years. And I just met Dujuan, and he's the most witty, intelligent you know funny young kid. And I was like I think he has some lessons for Australia and for the world.

CO: You really lucked out meeting Dujuan. I have to say, Dujuan, you are such a good voice — a good representative — of what Maya was trying to do in this documentary. But I have to ask what did you want people to know about your life?

DH: I want Aboriginal people to be strong. And not be treated the way we used to be treated.

CO: Megan… this is your mum Megan here, why did you want to take part in this?

MH: To show that parents do love their kids. And they are strong for them. Because we have family welfare that is take people just go and get kids off their mothers so they think that we're not strong enough to love our children, look after them, care for them.

CO: A lot of kids get taken away from their parents — same here. This is a long history in Canada of the same thing — of Indigenous people. We use the word Indigenous; you use the word Aboriginal. But people having their kids taken from them. Did you feel sometimes you fear that your kids would be taken from you?

MH: Yeah, I had them come to me. It's started at school. Dujuan was doing just what kids do, you know mocking and all that. So they didn't inform me at first. They went and just put in a phone call to the welfare department. They just walked up to my house and said oh, we got a phone call saying Dujuan was doing I don't know what they said. But yeah, they should have come and speak to me first, the schoolteachers.

CO: I haven't asked you yet, Jim, why did you take part? You’re Dujuan’s dad, why did you agree to be part of this documentary?

JM: I was surprised at the time because they said they were sending Dujuan up to me. And I didn't know he had Maya following him around with a camera. So I was sort of shocked when she did come up.

CO: We'll get to this because it's closer to the end when Dujuan goes to live with you in your homeland. But I want to ask about homeland. Because that's a really, really important part of this documentary. And you're living in this town called Alice Springs, and a couple of times in this film we get to go to your homeland. What's special about that place, Dujuan.

DH: We had families stay there a long time ago. Some of them passed away there, and passed their gift onto their youngest.

CO: You learn that a very special gift was passed on to you. Can you tell us about that?

DH: My grandfather was a witchdoctor, and passed away on that night. And then a couple of days later, my grandmother told me that my grandfather passed me his power for healing.

CO: What does it mean to you that you have these healing powers?

DH: I have to heal my family for whenever they have sores, or feel cramps somewhere.

CO: Everyone in the family at one time or another asks you to help heal them, heal their pains.

DH: Yup, and some of my grandmothers still have it.

CO: Have the power?

DH: Yeah.

CO: They teach you how to use it, don't they? When you're out in the bush with them — when you go to your homeland — you have great teachers there.

DH: Yeah.

CO: And Megan, what does it mean for you to be the mom of somebody who has these powers?

MH: I’m Proud, but he needs to use his powers on his family to heal them. He needs to keep it in him. If we don't have family, we don't have nothing. Our family is the most important thing for us.

CO: And you have to take care of each other?

MH: Take care of each other, love each other.

CO: Is that hard to do?

MH: Sometimes.

CO: When is it hard to take care of Dujuan?

HM: At his worst, when he was running away into the streets with other kids. That was very hard. I couldn't find him. So I had to ask family members that hang around in the streets. They’d go Dujuan’s over there. Dujuan, hurry up, get in the car, we’re going. I don’t want you to stay in town. It's a bad place.

CO: There are lots of scenes of you driving around looking for Dujuan.

HM: Yes. We was looking everywhere for him. Didn't want you to stay in the streets, hanging around with the wrong kids.

CO: Why did you run away so much, Dujuan?

DH: Sometimes my cousins and brothers don't like to hang around with me. And then I went for a walk into the town, and then found some boys that were walking around, and then I started following them.

CO: The danger for you — among many dangers — but one of them was that the police often picked up kids like you on the street, right? Were you afraid of that?

DH: Sometimes.

CO: Megan, what was your greatest of worry when he was out on the street?

MH: My worries were breaking in, stealing cars because that was my worry because the kids he was with — hanging with — they were always doing that.

CO: But Megan, the thing is that you know that, and you said a number of places, and your mom says, how important it is to have your culture, your identity, to be Aboriginal, to have homeland. All that is absolutely important, but at the same time, you wanted Dujuan to have a Western education, to be part of the regular school system, to live in… well, to live in Alice Springs, within a white culture. Why did you want that?

MH: Now, you need your like Western education for the future to get you know jobs for Dujuan and Colin.

CO: This is your other son?

MH: Colin is my other son, yeah — my elder son.

CO: But they didn't do very well in that school?

MH: They didn't do… yeah.

CO: Why do you think they didn't do well?

MH: Because I think the school didn’t do well for them.

CO: How did the school let him down?

MH: By expelling him from school because…

CO: He didn't fit in.

MH: Yeah, he didn't fit in.

CO: You're listening to a feature interview with the makers of an Australian documentary called “In My Blood It Runs.” And I'm speaking with the boy whose story it tells, Dujuan Hoosan, along with his parents, and the director of the film. There's some other clips I want to play from the documentary that might explain some of what you're saying. And this is there is a day when your teacher, Dujuan is teaching class about Captain Cook, who is a figure in Australian history. And here's her describing Captain cooking class. We're going to listen to that clip.

SOUNDCLIP

TEACHER: Listen carefully. This one isn't a story. This is information or non-fiction. It's fact. “The Australia Book,” it's about the history of our country. At Botany Bay, Cook landed for the first time in the new country. Then, he sailed up the coast, mapping as he went. He was nearly wrapped on the coral on the Barrier Reef. And only because he was a great sailor, did he manage to save his ship. On an island of Cape York, He raised that English flag. And he climbed for the English country the whole of this new land.

CO: Okay, this is your land, right? She is describing your land. She's describing how Captain Cook claimed for England all of Australia. How did you feel when she was teaching that lesson?

DH: I felt scared because I was thinking about how white people would wipe out half of Australia with their cities and stuff.

CO: If you could talk to the teacher now, what would you say?

DH: Why Captain Cook come on Australia?

CO: The story is — the history is — as she's describes it the history of Australia, which is that this Englishman came to Australia and claimed it for England — claimed the land that your ancestors came from.

DH: I think this story was a lie.

CO: Megan, I think you want to say something about Captain Cook. What is it?

MH: He just came to Australia thinking he owned it.

JM: Captain Cook came and he wiped half of our race out, and took Aboriginals in as slaves.

MH: And they got tortured. Australian people think it's okay for them to celebrate that Aboriginals got tortured, crude, slavery and all that.

CO: And lost your land.

MH: lost land because of this white man, Captain Cook.

CO: There's another clip that we want to play that's also another lesson, and another day in school, Dujuan. And this is a different teacher, and she's talking about a book you're learning about spirits. I want to play that clip.

SOUNDCLIP

TEACHER: For a long time, there was nothing. Then, in the mind of the Spirit of Life, a Dreaming began. In the empty darkness, there was a Dreaming of fire. And the colour of fire burned brightly in the mind of the Great Spirit. So they're actually saying is a spirit. I'm not exactly sure how they do it. But there's a spirit somewhere. And in that spirit, they have the spirit of fire.

DH: The spirit is real!

TEACHER: Okay, let's see what happens.

CO: Okay, this teacher is saying that there was a spirit on the land, but it's a story, it's made up. And you say to her, Dujuan, you say but it's true. The spirit is real. Do you remember that moment when you tried to tell the teacher that there really was a spirit in the land?

CO: Yeah. She wouldn't listen. ‘Cause every time we tried to talk, she says don’t interrupt the book. If you could tell her, if she had answered you and let you speak, what would you have told her about the spirit you know is there?

DH: The spirit is somewhere in Australia, but now we can’t find it.

CO: What's happened to it?

DH: It's in a sacred site where nobody doesn't go. They go back to the lands.

CO: When you're in your homeland, when you're in the bush, do you feel the spirit there?

DH: Sometimes.

CO: Maya, just that in the documentary there are a number of times you can hear you have clips from a news investigation that's going on at the time into the numbers of Aboriginal kids in detention — in juvenile detention — and how they're being treated. What was that backdrop? What was the story that was being revealed while you were making this documentary?

MN: So around when we started to film with Dujuan, there was a massive revelation on a current affairs program, which revealed clips of kids being tortured in the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre. And this is horrific treatment of children that they allow in Australia. We lock up kids who are 10 years old, which is Dujuan’s age in this film. Most Western countries that age of criminality is 14 or 16. And these were horrendous images, and it shocked the whole nation. And in Alice Springs, kids and families were watching that footage on their TV, and that was their family members in there. So it was really full on to be making a film about a child who was tracking towards you know that juvenile justice system while we are seeing those torturous images. So the prime minister called the Royal Commission investigation into those allegations. And that Royal Commission was happening over the course of us making the film. So there were people protesting all around the country, people giving submissions, young kids being called to give evidence. It was a big moment in Australia.

CO: And what you revealed in the town you lived in — in Alice Springs — 100 per cent of the kids in juvenile detention were Aboriginal. It’s a shocking number.

MH: Shocking all right.

CO: What worries did you have for your sons, given how many kids were being arrested and detained in that place. Were you worried about them, Megan?

MH: Yes, I was worried that they might end up in Don Dale as well.

CO: Did you worry yourself, Dujuan? Were you worried that you might end up there? I saw you watching some of the documentary. It must have been really shocking for you

DH: Yes. Once when I ran away from school, we went into town. Some policemen were chasing us, and they caught us. And then one of the boys asked them if they were taking us to jail? And they said maybe.

CO: And they put you in a paddy wagon, didn't they? Were you scared?

DH: Yes. Some of the paddy wagons take kids home from being on the streets. And some of the boys who were sitting down with us got taken away from their families.

CO: You know kids who got taken away from their families?

DH: Yes.

CO: Megan, how did you come to decide that Dujuan go and live with his dad?

MH: Because he just kept doing what he wanted to do, and he didn't know that he was making his mother worried me. But only way we had to get him out of town was send him to his father.

CO: Jim, I'm going to ask you as the dad, what did you think you could do for Dujuan that his mum couldn't do for him?

JM: Well, as Dujuan’s father, I'd like to be his role model in his teen years. So hopefully, pick a different road than the one he was on in Alice.

CO: And you live on the land, don't you, Jim?

JM: Yes. So there's not many people there. We mostly just live off the land, and we've got country that we stay on most of the time.

CO: Dujuan, when you're there, when you go to live with your dad, you seem different. You seem happier. Were you happier when that happened? You seem more free.

DH: Yes. Sometimes we like to go out fishing with Dad in the boat, and go out in the sea.

CO: Do you think you'll be okay now?

DH: Yes.

CO: When you're in the bush, you start having dreams about what you want to do, what you think you can change. What do you hope to do? What do you hope to change?

DH: Aboriginal rights and laws about the juvenile centres locking up 10-year-olds, and stealing kids from their mums and dads.

CO: You want to grow up and change things, change the system?

DH: Yes.

CO: Do you think you'll do that?

DH: Maybe.

CO: I think you will.

MN: In the movie, Dujuan says that he wants to speak to the prime minister. So we're actually rolling out a social impact campaign when we release this film, and I'm pretty sure we're gonna get him a meeting with the prime minister.

CO: What would you say to the prime minister if you did meet with him?

DH: Could you change the laws? Every day, kids get taken away from their families. And during the night, they cry for their families.

CO: At the very end of the film, when the credits are rolling, you have some things you wrote, which is that you, Maya, say all the thank yous you usually see there. And you think this family for letting you make the documentary, but do you thank Dujuan for… maybe you describe. What do you thank him for?

MN: Over the course of making this film, I've learnt so much from Dujuan. I've learnt about Aboriginal culture and language, and also, I've admired his courage to tell and share his story. It takes a lot, especially in our context in Australia, to tell the truth about what it's like to grow up as a kid under many oppressive laws in Australia. So I wanted to thank him for his friendship, and for his courage to share his story.

DH: I want kids and Aboriginal people to have hope and strength from my film.

CO: And do you think they will? Do you think that we've learned something from you?

DH: Yes.

CO: I think you're right. We sure did. Dujuan, I want to thank you so much for being part of this film, and for talking to me.

DH: I thank you too for bringing me into Toronto.

CO: All right. And Megan, thank you. Jim, thank you. And Maya, thank you for making this documentary.

MN: Thank you.

MH: Thank you.

TA: Maya Newell made the documentary "In My Blood It Runs" in collaboration with Dujuan Hoosan and his mother Megan Hoosan. They were in the As It Happens studio with Carol in April. You can find more on Dujuan Hoosan and the film on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And from the end credits of the film here is Dujuan singing his own version of "You're Welcome" from the "Moana" soundtrack.

SOUNDCLIP

[Dujuan singing "You're Welcome"]

TA: That's Dujuan Hoosan with his version of "You're Welcome" from the movie "Moana."

[Music]

Colorado fire fish

Guest: Jim White

TA: For years Colorado's Animas River has been a magnet for fishermen. It's stocked with rainbow trout -- and some sections of it have been designated as a Gold Medal fishery. But now that status is on hold. In June of 2018 an enormous wildfire ripped through the Hermosa Cliffs. The smoke has long since cleared but it seems the fish have too. According to a recent survey fish populations in the river have suffered an 80 percent loss because of the fire. Jim White is an aquatic biologist with Colorado Parks and Wildlife. We reached him in Durango, Colorado.

CO: Jim just how devastating was this wildfire that took place well over a year ago?

JIM WHITE: Well the wildfire burned about 54,000 acres of a really pristine tributary to the Animas River north of Durango here. And the resulting rainstorms and flooding that occurred after the wildfire, we estimate it killed about 80 percent of some of the small fishes and wild trout that were in the Animas River.

CO: And how did it kill the fish? How did this fire and its effects create so much damage for the fish in the river?

JW: Well you know the fire itself obviously doesn't kill the fish -- it's the ash and debris that comes down after the first large rainstorms.

CO: Can you describe what it looked like after the fire on the river?

JW: Well it looked exactly like if anybody's ever been camping they hopefully are good stewards of the land and take a bucket of water and they dump it over their campfire and you've got this floating black ash and debris and chunks of charcoal and that's what the river looked like. And to add insult to injury, we were in a historic drought down here and so the river flows were very low. And so this ash and debris and solution was not diluted by other tributaries. And yeah...it was nasty.

CO: And so it smothered the river so no oxygen could get through?

JW: Yes. So there's oxygen -- and one of the researchers here in Durango, Scott Roberts with Mountain Studies Institute also took water quality samples and saw levels of dissolved metals particularly aluminum and some other things that are coming out of the vegetation and concentrated in this slurry that were very toxic to fish as well. So it wasn't just oxygen, it was other pollutants if you will coming off the burn itself.

CO: And what are you seeing? Now that you have got the stats, the numbers, the data -- how much loss of fish has there been in the river?

JW: You know it varies. What we're basing our estimates on are really fish that are wild and present in the river versus fish that we've stocked to really characterize the impact. So we've got a little native fish called a Mottled Sculpin -- and it lives on the bottom of the river. It's a good indicator species of the river health itself. So that's one of our indicator species where we saw about an 80 percent decline. And we also looked at sort of our wild trout that are out there so fish that we haven't stocked recently and really saw a similar decline. As far as the size of fish yeah these older fish did not handle the change in water quality well at all. Obviously they had a pretty devastating fish kill with fish swimming up on the shorelines and you know trying to get oxygen and you know it was just a mess.

CO: You get some pretty big wildfires in Colorado. How did this one compare?

JW: I believe it's close to one of the top 10 just in terms of size. It's unfortunately part of living in the West and pretty typical to have to deal with these devastating debris flows not just for communities but for the aquatic community as well.

CO: Are you seeing bigger and more dangerous wildfires because of climate change?

JW: Probably yeah. I would assume as we see these -- the onset of drought occur very quickly and we have other issues with forest health, we've got a large spruce beetle kill issue with some of our forest health up here. And yeah fire conditions can change quickly and you know those trickle down to affecting our aquatic ecosystems as well.

CO: Over the course of the summer did you see much life return to those forests? Is there a recovery that you're witnessing?

JW: Yeah -- we actually couldn't have had two more different years. 2018 was characterized by drought, fire obviously, and then we had a record amount of snowfall this winter. And so obviously that moisture was great for plants and it was fantastic for the health of the Animas River -- it moved an enormous amount of sediment that accumulated from the fire. Some of the fish are pretty easy to return. I am sitting here at a hatchery actually and you know it's fairly easy to repopulate the river here with rainbow trout and smaller brown trout. But our native fish may take a little bit longer. But we also noticed that actually a quite large increase in the number of a native fish called the "bluehead sucker" and these guys have come back and they're actually more abundant than what we've seen which is a good sign.

CO: We know that people come from all over the place to that river because it has such great fishing. What effect this has had on your tourism in the region?

JW: Fortunately Durango is pretty well diversified. But yeah there's no doubt about it. That's part of what makes Durango so special is having a river running right through the middle of town that has this Gold Medal status attached to it. So that's a tough pill to swallow to lose that angling opportunity for a couple of years.

CO: But it's coming back.

JW: It is coming back. And it'll be interesting to sort of monitor that progress as it comes back. The biggest concern is probably those small Mottled Sculpins provide kind of the base of the food chain for some of the larger older fish that anglers are so interested in. And we can't really go stock those fish so we'll have to see how that plays out.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. Jim thank you.

JW: Yeah you bet. Thank you.

TA: Jim White is an aquatic biologist with Colorado Parks and Wildlife. He's in Durango, Colorado.

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October 7, 2019 Episode Transcript

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