Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2018

The AIH Transcript for August 27, 2018

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas and this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

HM: El arte del deal. U.S. President Donald Trump announces a new trade pact with Mexico and a former U.S. ambassador to Canada warns Ottawa that it faces its toughest ever trade talks in the week ahead.

JD: His stars and stripes. John McCain, who died on Saturday, will be remembered as both a valiant military man and GOP statesman. But tonight his former foreign policy advisor reflects on the gentlemen behind the officer and the senator and his little known connection to Canada's North.

HM: Reckoning in Rakhine. A report released today by United Nations human rights investigators urges that Myanmar's top military brass be charged with genocide against Rohingya Muslims.

JD: Horrific endgame. Three people are dead and several more injured after a shooter opens fire at a live streamed video game tournament in Jacksonville Florida. A woman who escaped recounts what she saw.

HM: It's an El Camino all right. But it drives more like a sting ray thanks to a colony of European Hornets who made themselves at home in the driver's seat of an Ohio man's Chevy.

JD: And…The quick and the duds. The theft of dozens of high powered rifles from Paraguayan national police's armoury goes undetected for months because the thieves replace them with toy replicas. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio that can appreciate a clever sleight of arms.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: NAFTA Mexico, UN Rohingya Report, El Camino Hornets

NAFTA Mexico

Guest: Bruce Heyman

JD: Today, U.S. President Donald Trump put Canada on notice — sign a trade deal with the U.S. before Friday or face hefty tariffs on Canadian cars. Donald Trump made that threat at a press conference today announcing that the NAFTA deal as we know it was dead and a new bilateral deal with Mexico had emerged. It was now up to Canada to join it or negotiate its own deal with the U.S. Here's part of what President Trump said in the Oval Office today with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto on speaker phone.

SOUNDCLIP

US PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Canada will start negotiations shortly, I'll be calling the prime minister. They have tariffs of almost 300 per cent or some of our dairy products so we can't have that. I think with Canada frankly, the easiest thing we can do is to tariff their cars coming in. It's a tremendous amount of money and it's a very simple negotiation it could end in one day and I like to call this deal ‘The United States Mexico Trade Agreement.’ I think NAFTA has a lot of bad connotations for the United States because it was a rip off. You and I will agree to the name and we will see whether or not we decide to put up Canada or just do a separate deal with Canada if they want to make the deal.

JD: President Trump speaking to reporters in the Oval Office with the Mexican president on speakerphone. Meanwhile Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is on her way to Washington D.C. to resume trade talks. Bruce Heyman is the former U.S. ambassador to Canada. We reached Ambassador Heyman in Aspen.

HM: Ambassador Heyman, President Trump says the clock is ticking he wants Canada signed a trade deal with the U.S. by this Friday or the country could face some major tariffs. How serious do you think his threat is?

BRUCE HEYMAN: Well, I always take the president's threats as being serious. I wouldn't minimize that. That being said, there's been a lot of progress here made with Mexico. And I actually think that there are various pathways to getting that deal done very quickly assuming that we work on compromise as opposed to putting a gun to Canada's head and forcing them to capitulate, which would be quite unfortunate. But the president should not be underestimated in use of tariffs which he had now done on steel and aluminum and threatened on auto.

HM: Is Canada's position significantly weakened after his announcement today?

BH: I don't think so. You know, if we just go back a few months Canada actually recognized that when the U.S. was proposing a very high percentage of North American content they realized that some of this would be incredibly difficult and they recommended to the U.S. trade representative why don't we find an alternative path looking at wages, which is exactly what Mexico has done and negotiated out. The other parts of the various things talked about the sunset part of this NAFTA negotiation which was the president had previously proposed that in five years that deal actually sunset which would be ridiculous for anybody to sign on to including American businesses. You know, it looks to be significantly modified out 16 years with periodic reviews and updates and so forth. So I think that they walked back on that quite a bit. So I think the biggest thing that Canada is going to have to work on negotiating is what is called Chapter 19, which is this dispute resolution authority that exists. And so now with a president rumored to be proposing that that be eliminated, that may be a problematic area for discussion.

HM: Do you see any reason why Canada would agree to that though, given that you know the concerns in this country is that if we depend on U.S. courts there's no way Canada could win any challenges?

BH: Look, I understand that completely and I think Canada has a right to at least stand up and say this is important. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't pathways to compromise on this and maybe you could substantially carve out a number of industries that would be dramatically impacted by removing this provision and you still had them part of a dispute mechanism that might still work.

HM: When we're talking about what Canada might put on the table, one of the issues is of course is our supply management system, particularly with regards to dairy. The president has repeatedly said he hates it, he thinks it's very unfair to the United States. We do put almost 300 per cent tariffs on many U.S. dairy products. Is that the way to a deal?

BH: It might be. And there are paths of, I think, still keeping supply management but yet giving greater access. Canada gave greater access in CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement), they gave greater access in TPP negotiations, and I think that there are pathways, again, to getting this done without the prime minister capitulating, but the Prime Minister compromising, which I think everybody would like to see between the U.S. Mexico and Canada — compromise. So everybody has a full perspective here. The U.S. has a trade surplus in dairy with Canada and nobody actually pays this 270 per cent because there are quota levels in which dairy is sold that are tariff-free. And so 99.9 per cent of all trade prior to these tariffs all going in on steel aluminium were duty free. So this bluster on dairy is something I think can be focused on but it's such a small percentage of trade between our two countries.

HM: The question of auto tariffs, which the president is holding over Canada right now, if they were to be slapped on this country what is the potential impact on both sides of the border?

BH: It's horrific. You know, I think economically more broadly, I think the impact in Canada would be greater than the United States. But don't underestimate the impact in the United States. And you've got to remember we've got the midterms coming up and the president has been very much dependent upon these Midwestern states. He was dependent upon it for his election and winning. He's also going to be exposed here on a number of candidates at the congressional level and state and local levels that I think that would work against the president politically. That being said, it is one of a couple of threats, he has threatened to get rid of NAFTA altogether, which he has that ability within the deal and he is threatened on auto and auto parts tariffs, both of which I think are really bad outcomes both of which though are like playing Russian roulette and putting a gun to your head and clicking the trigger.

HM: Do you think that President Trump realizes the potential damage these terrorists could do? I mean, this is a game of chicken is it a risk that he is willing to take for any, I mean, is there a good to be any great benefit to him if it fails?

BH: He hasn't demonstrated, in my view, an understanding of the implications of the tariffs that he has imposed already. And we're already seeing blowback where we're talking about a multi-billion dollar payment to farmers who are being impacted as a result of retaliation that is taking place worldwide. I think that, you know, he thinks we have the largest economy — we do — and we generally have, globally, trade deficits. So he thinks that given those two, you know, facts that he can play this game of tariffs can last longer than anyone else. But we're an interlocking economy here and the impact should not be underestimated domestically.

HM: We heard the president say that he wants to scrap the name NAFTA because he says it has negative connotations and I guess there is some truth to that for his base and even other members of the electorate. How much is this, do you think, is about optics here? That if Canada gave President Trump some wins, put some things on the table, just enough for him to declare victory prior to the midterms that that might be sufficient?

BH: I think a lot of it is about optics. You know, Canada and Mexico are number two and three in terms of total dollar trade. Canada is our best trading partner in the world because we have, not only very large trade, but it's balanced and the U.S. has a trade surplus. And picking this ongoing fight with Canada is, I think, much more political. It feeds his base, tells this story about dairy, which I've now said is very small. I think he needs a win. And I think that a lot of this is on optics. And by the way, he made the term NAFTA as toxic as it was in his campaign. So I completely agree, we need to change the name. And so if the agreements completely renegotiated let's come up with a new wrapper on it and call it something entirely different.

HM: All right Ambassador Heyman, we appreciate your insights. Thank you so much.

BH: It's a pleasure.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

BH: Bye-bye.

JD: Ambassador Bruce Heyman was the U.S. ambassador to Canada under President Barack Obama. We reached him in Aspen.

[Music: Guitar]

UN Rohingya Report

Guest: Christopher Sidoti

JD: A new U.N. report on the situation in Myanmar is blunt. It says top Myanmar military generals must be investigated and prosecuted for genocide. The report stems from a U.N. fact finding mission in which a panel found evidence that the military in Rakhine state were quote “killing indiscriminately, gang raping women, assaulting children and burning entire villages.” End quote. Christopher Sidoti is one of the three members of the panel who will present their full report to the U.N. Human Rights Council next month. We reached him in Geneva.

HM: Mr. Sidoti, what evidence of genocide did you find on this fact finding mission?

CHRISTOPHER SIDOTI: We found a great deal of evidence because we spoke to a very large number of people. The three of us and the staff spoke to 875 eyewitnesses and survivors who told us precisely what they saw or what happened to them. We were also able to look at video evidence and photographic evidence, both of which we verified, and satellite imagery. So the evidence that we had was comprehensive and it indicated to us that crimes against humanity, war crimes, and in the case of Rakhine state, genocide, were issues that needed to be addressed.

HM: You have named specific people in the report. Take us through what you claim they have done?

CS: The specific people that we named are the top of the military command — the commander in chief, the deputy commander in chief and former divisional commanders. We say that they now need to be investigated for individual liability for these serious international crimes, and if the investigations warrant — a prosecution. So for the genocide in Rahkine state, for crimes against humanity and war crimes in Rakhine, Kachin and Shan states of Myanmar.

HM: So what do you think the next steps would be for them to hold them to account?

CS: The immediate next step is to establish a special mechanism of the United Nations to look at the collection of prosecutorial evidence and to make a decision on whether the evidence warranted taking them to court. After that, then there needs to be an international court with jurisdiction to deal with that evidence and the prosecutions. The one thing that we are convinced of is that the judicial mechanisms in Myanmar itself are not adequate to the task of trying these very serious crimes under international law.

HM: Beyond the military leadership, the report also singles out Myanmar's civilian leader Aung San Suu Kyi. What does the report say about her?

CS: The report indicates that the civilian authorities have contributed to the atrocities that we have found. We certainly did not find any evidence that the civilian authorities were involved in the planning and the implementation of the operations, but they firstly did nothing to prevent them from occurring and secondly, more actively, they shielded the military by indulging in misinformation and by denying and covering up what was going on. And so they made a contribution, but the principle liability, the principal responsibility lies with the military leadership.

HM: What about those in the international community who have failed to stop the violence thus far? Has the United Nations itself done enough up to this point?

CS: That's very difficult to say and, again, has not been the primary focus of our investigations. We have however made a recommendation that there needs to be an inquiry into the United Nations response, for no other reason, for no better reasons at times but just learning what has been done to discovering where the deficiencies were and whether more could have been done. It's necessary for the U.N. to learn the lessons of each of these kinds of catastrophic experiences and ensure that we do better in future. But there is a growing concern that the Security Council itself has failed in its responsibilities and the Security Council has not passed a resolution on Myanmar. It is responsible under the United Nations Charter for international peace and security and it has an obligation to act but it is not yet done so. We hope very much that the strength of our report, the strength of the evidence that we have found will prompt the Security Council to finally take action.

HM: Beyond the United Nations and the Security Council more specifically in terms of individual nations and their response to all of this there have been some sanctions placed by certain countries. But do you think your report is going to sort of harness more energy, is it going to make a big difference?

CS: Well, certainly that's our intention and that's our hope. The sanctions that have been applied to date have been limited and quite rightly they're focused on individuals, but it's surprising to us that the commander in chief and the deputy commander in chief have not been subjected to sanctions by any country. And that's one thing that needs to be looked at immediately.

HM: These horrific stories that you outline in this report, there may be more comprehensive in their description but we've been hearing these for many, many months. You know, nothing has really changed. Why should this report make a difference given the horrors we've heard of already?

CS: It's a very fair question. This report should make a difference because it is the most authoritative report and the most comprehensive report yet published.

HM: And yet given China's relationship with Myanmar how likely do you think it is that the Security Council will refer the case to the International Criminal Court?

CS: I don't like singling out China when there are five members, five permanent members of the Security Council but have veto power. And I certainly don't see China as the sole problem. All the Security Council has responsibility and we are making this report, we are making our recommendations on the basis that the Security Council as a whole will exercise its responsibility.

HM: And what do you think will happen if the Security Council does not take action and something isn't pursued more aggressively now?

CS: Then we have raised a number of other approaches to international accountability. It's not just a matter for the Security Council but for other states as well. Domestic courts have universal jurisdiction. It's also possible for groups of states to establish an international tribunal to go outside the Security Council.

HM: What do you think Canada might be able to do?

CS: I would say two things. Firstly, at the international level, to support action by the United Nations system. Canada is an important member of the United Nations and it has a significant role to play within U.N. forums. Secondly, Canadian courts can exercise universal jurisdiction. That requires that somebody who has been recommended for investigation and prosecution set foot in Canada, but by making it very clear that Canada will exercise universal jurisdiction in relation to Myanmar, Canada set an example for other states as well.

HM: Mr. Sidoti, I very much appreciate your time today. Thank you.

CS: Thank you very much.

JD: Christopher Sidoti is a member of the U.N. independent international fact finding mission on Myanmar. We reached him in Geneva.

[Music: Piano Ballad]

Hudson Home Invasion

JD: It was the middle of the night and Natalie Poirier was sleeping at her home in Hudson, Quebec. Her husband was away on a fishing trip. She was home alone. That is when she heard what she described as a quote “really loud bang.” Ms. Poirier would soon learn there were two intruders in her home. She says they violently attacked her. They grabbed her throat, they pushed her to the ground. She ended up getting away. And now Ms. Poirier is warning the community about what happened and encouraging people to improve their home security like installing good lighting and security cameras. Earlier today she spoke with the CBC’s Mike Finnerty about the incident.

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIE POIRIER: I did the heck out of them in the places where it would hurt most like wherever I could reach them — between their thumbs — and it really stopped because it happened all within four minutes. So they really just kind of stopped they told me to stop yelling, stop yelling. And as soon as I stopped then he started yelling ‘Where's the money? I was like “My wallet is over there. I have I think 40 bucks you can take it.” He says “Where?” And I’m like “It’s on the island” I couldn't look up and show him because I had my face down on the ground. So I went to go get it which really brought me to my side door and allowed me to run out. Now I feel like I was in a dream in a dream. You know those dreams when you feel like you're being held back and you want to run but your legs don't work and you want to stream but you don't have a voice. Well, boy did I ever have a voice. I lost it. I don't have one today but I sure had live last night.

MIKE FINNERTY: So you're out of the house on the road screaming. And what happens?

NP: Well, there was — an angel appeared in the form of a lady in a van right in the middle of a road, right when I was running because they were running toward me on the road. And then the car came in so they split up and one of them ran through my neighbour's property. The other one crossed the road but they both, I saw as I was standing with the car and a lady called 911, and my dog had come out looking for me to all limping and stuff. So she was like such a nice person, got us in the car, in the van and waited in the driveway with us until the police showed up 10 minutes later.

JD: That was Natalie Poirier speaking with the CBC’s Mike Finnerty on Daybreak Montreal this morning.

[Music: Ambient Beeps]

El Camino Hornets

Guest: Travis Watson

JD: The most unusual place I've found these guys — that very well could rate as the understatement of the year. Travis Watson owns and operates an Ohio based Bee, wasp and hornet removal service called The Beeman. And Beeman was called to a job yesterday that saw him remove a European hornet’s nest the size of a small child from the driver's seat of an El Camino in Alliance, Ohio. The video of that has gone viral, in part no doubt, to Mr. Watson's unflappable commentary. We reached Travis Watson in Youngstown, Ohio.

HM: Travis Watson, what was your first impression when you approached this mammoth hornets’ nest?

TRAVIS WATSON: I'm not going to lie it made me a little nervous. You know, it surprised me certainly. I mean, I've seen some big nests because I've been doing this for 13 years now and my grandpa, you know, he started the business and stuff he was doing it for over 40. So, you know, I've seen massive honey bee colonies. I've seen big colonies of other types of bees but this is the first time I've seen that big of a colony of these European hornets, which are pretty new in the area that I live in.

HM: Well give us a sense of the size? What did you see when you got near this car?

TW: So the nest went all the way from the headliner down to kind of the bottom of the back of the seat. It was only a few inches off of the surface of the seat where you’d sit itself. So I'd say it was at least three feet tall and it was at least a-foot-and-a-half wide. I mean, it was it was just huge in terms of European hornets. And European hornets themselves, they're quite large. You know, if you want to think about it they're about the size of your thumb, they can be about an inch-and-a-half long.

HM: So how many hornets do you think would be housed in that nest?

TW: A typical European hornet colony can get up to eight hundred to a thousand at full strength. Typically, you typically see that in October when they're completely at full strength. But, you know, this was such a big one so I wouldn't say it was probably around 800 to a thousand.

HM: Right. So you found this in an old Chevrolet El Camino. What would make a car like that prime real estate for these European hornets?

TW: More just because it had sat there since the spring. You know, it had been sitting there, you know, for a number of years. The passenger side window was let down just a crack. And it was enough for the Queen to get in there in April when she emerged from hibernation and get started on these.

HM: So that's how long it took to build that giant nest?

TW: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I'm from northeast Ohio and the queens for these emerge around April around here. Up Canada they would emerge a little bit later in the spring than down here, but down here they emerged around April. And that queen starts that nest just completely from scratch. She doesn't have any workers in there, she has to lay the eggs to make the workers. And it takes her until about July before she gets enough workers where she can change so her only job is to lay eggs. And, you know, starting in July these nets get very large very quickly because of that, you know, it's a compounding effect for the workers you keep getting more workers every day and they just keep building and building and building and that lets the queen lay even more eggs every day.

HM: So I've seen the video of you working on this thing. What was the white powder you're spraying?

TW: We use a pesticide in there. So these guys don't pollinate like honeybees do, my business saves honeybees. You know, I'm a beekeeper we try to relocate those, but for the other types of bees or hornets like these guys are we exterminate them, you know, particularly because these ones are predators they don't pollinate. And actually, I mean, they're known to eat honeybees every once in a while as well. So they're pretty dangerous to have around. You don't want to just sort of leave them if that's a place where the homeowners going by mowing grass once a week there.

HM: So as you're doing this you're breaking apart the nest — the white balls — there's lots of them are they the eggs?

TW: Those are eggs.

HM: Wow. So what kind of protection were you wearing as you were doing this?

HM: Yeah I suit it all the way up for these guys. I don't mess around with European hornets so I invested in a triple layer suit for them and then I have sting-proof gloves. Although, I mean, that said, you know, sting-proof gloves aren't necessarily always sting-proof, you know, they have a nice thick cowhide hands on them and in the areas around the rest are supposed to not let bees things through, although I have had those gloves allow bee stings through before.

HM: You know, without that kind of protection what kind of damage can these hornets do?

TW: I mean, they can put you in a hospital. I mean, they could even kill you. You know, it takes, I think, on a typical human, you know, two to three hundred stings can kill an average human. So if you reach in and break apart that nest, I mean, you're at least going to the hospital. And if you're allergic, if you don't have an EpiPen on it could kill you easily.

HM: Wow. On this video you're seen dismantling this nest and putting it in a small plastic shopping bag. And from the get go I’m thinking ‘He's going to need a bigger bag.’

TW: Yes. If you heard at the end of the video I realized that myself. These nests they break down and get much smaller. So at first glance I couldn't tell from the outside of the car just how big the nest was, I couldn't fully appreciate it almost until I was in there. And typically a shopping bags enough for it, you know, on this one I had to get some reinforcements and get a couple more bags for it.

HM: Right. What's the owner saying to you now?

TW: He was glad to have them gone. He said that he's 85 years old and the idea of messing around with those on his own, he basically said that's for young people to do. And he looked at the price it takes for me to take care of those was cheaper than a hospital room bill.

HM: Yeah. Well you're a brave man Mr. Watson. I have to say congratulations on getting rid of that thing. Thanks for talking to us.

TW: Thank you for having me.

HM: Bye.

JD: Travis Watson is a wasp buster. We reached him in Youngstown, Ohio.

Part 2: John McCain Obit, Jacksonville Madden Shooting

John McCain Obit

Guest: Richard Fontaine

JD: Today a long-time aide of U.S. Senator John McCain read his final statement.

SOUNDCLIP

MCCAIN AIDE: Thank you for the privilege of serving you and for the rewarding life that service in uniform and in public office has allowed me to lead. I've tried to serve our country honourably. I've made mistakes but I hope my love for America will be weighed favourably against them. I've often observed that I'm the luckiest person on earth. I feel that way, even now, as I prepare for the end of my life. I've loved my life — all of it. I've had experiences, adventures, friendships enough for ten satisfying lives. And I am so thankful. Like most people, I have regrets, but I would not trade a day of my life in good or bad times for the best day of anybody else's.

JD: As you will have likely heard, Senator John McCain died this weekend following a battle with brain cancer. He was 81 years old. Since the news of his death broke tributes have been pouring in for the politician, who many also considered a war hero. Senator McCain endured five-and-a-half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. John McCain was a frequent guest on this program. In May of 1989, then host Michael Enright asked him why he had taken up the cause of Canadians who had served in the conflict.

SOUNDCLIP

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I think it's a very special kind of person who from another country decides that it's important, the freedom of a little country some 10,000 miles away is important enough to them to go over there and risk their lives as many Canadians did. I will never forget as long as I live meeting a Canadian general who about ten years ago was chief of staff of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost a son in Vietnam who had enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and died as a private. And I was very touched by his sacrifice. So the least I can do, I think, is recognize and appreciate Canadian citizens who not only served to but of course those others that made the ultimate sacrifice.

JD: From our archives that was John McCain speaking with Michael Enright back in May of 1989. Richard Fontaine that was Senator McCain's foreign policy adviser from 2004 to 2009. And in a piece for The Atlantic this week he shared memories of his trips with the senator including one to Canada years ago. We reached Richard Fontaine in Washington, D.C. earlier today.

HM: Mr. Fontaine, first of all, let me say I'm sorry for your loss of your friend.

RICHARD FONTAINE: Thank you very much. This was a long time in coming but it's still a sad moment.

HM: You last saw each other in March. Can you tell us a bit about the conversation you had at that time?

RF: I went out to visit him in his cabin in northern Arizona outside of Sedona. And, you know, normally when I would get together since the years when I worked with him, I would get together from time to time and we would often gossip and, you know, tell some jokes and talk about some of the old war stories or trips that we had gone on together and so forth. And this is quite a different conversation. I spent a couple of hours there and he wanted to talk about his piece of land in Arizona and what he had been doing in Arizona. And we talked about history, he talked about Battle of Borodino when Napoleon's troops were at the gates of Moscow and the Russian army retreated beyond and burned the city. And we talked about Ulysses S. Grant and Stalin's show trials and it felt a world away from the churn of, you know, Trump tweeted this and this person said that the kind of stuff that we live in on a day to day basis in Washington. And so in that sense it did, in my mind at least, have a little bit of a sense of finality.

HM: So much has been shared about Senator McCain in the last few days. In your piece in The Atlantic you shared one particular memory that may resonate for Canadians and that's about a trip to Yukon. Can you tell us that story?

RF: Yeah and this, you know, I took many trips many places with Senator McCain and this was one of the highlights of them all. We wanted to visit northern areas because of his interest in climate change and the disproportionate effects it is having as you get closer to the poles. And so we got in contact with the government of Canada and planned a trip to Yukon. So we did this and we took along a few other senators. So Senator Hillary Clinton was there and some others. We landed in Whitehorse and someone there, maybe it was the mayor or someone, almost immediately upon landing with sort of talking about Whitehorse and mentioned that a local poet had lived there — Robert Service. And so Senator McCain's eyes lit up and he said at the The Cremation of Sam McGee and of course none of us had any idea what he was talking about. And he started to recite the poem verbally. And so again I said, ‘What the hell are you doing? What is this all about it?’ And he relayed the story that when he was in prison in Vietnam he spent two years in solitary confinement, and the guy was in the cell next to him they shared a wall and they had the prisoners ward had developed the tap code so they would talk obviously. So they would tap across the walls and they would convey messages in that way. And this individual on the other side, this P.O.W. had been required to learn poetry and memorize it in school and one of the one of the poems that he was required to memorize was The Cremation of Sam McGee. And so among the poems that he taught McCain — they had lots and lots of time on their hands — was that poem. And so McCain remembered it, not only verbally, but also in this tap code and he started to knock the poem out. Before I knew it he had disappeared. You know, as a staffer you think well if your boss disappears in Yukon it's probably not good for your career aspirations among other things. And what it had turned out was there was a friendly local who had overheard and said ‘Oh, you know, his house is right up the way here.’ And McCain said ‘I'd love to see that,’ and he said ‘I got a car I can take you there.’ McCain jumped in the car and off they went. They came back an hour or two later having, I don't know what the house looked like, but McCain's eyes shining and talking on and on about this this great Canadian poet.

HM: Did he talk much about his time as a prisoner of war? Because we know it informed his views of some things particularly I think many people will remember how he stood up after 9/11 against torture.

RF: He did from time to time, he talked about in a pretty manner fact way. You know, he was not a professional P.O.W. in that sense. I mean, it was not the sole defining characteristic of his career but yet it manifested itself in ways I think in terms of the way he saw war and the human cost of war and things like that. But also in ways you might not expect it. I mean, Senator McCain, because of the injuries he sustained in Vietnam, couldn't lift his arms over his head. And so it is very difficult for him to brush his hair and things like that. And so, you know, one would become pretty sensitive to this when we would be traveling and you would see him, it's a special bond when you when you comb another man's hair. Senator McCain is the only person that I have provided that service to. But those are the kinds of things that came out from his experience there.

HM: You worked with him in 2008 during his second run for the presidency, the one where he won the nomination with his running mate Sarah Palin. What did he think and talk about when it came to that run for the White House and what ultimately happened?

RF: Well, in a lot of ways the run for the White House I think was the culmination, or at the time it seemed like the culmination, of his life and career. He had, of course, run unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination in 2000. You know, here was a war hero, a distinguished politician etc. And to get the nomination and then fall short I think was going to be a disappointment to anyone. But for me one of the most moving aspects was actually in the consolation speech that he gave on election night there in Phoenix Arizona when he referred to Senator Obama and said that he was my former opponent and now will be my president. And, you know, here in 2018 it almost seems quaint that he wasn't calling for his opponent to be thrown in jail or investigated or something like that — he was saying no, no, no, we fought, we both tried to win this election, this is the democratic process. He won and now he's my president. And then the Senator, I think, went on to carve out a different space for himself as a senior senator and something of a statesman in the Congress.

HM: He seemed to look back at things he considered mistakes and acknowledge that. I mean, he talked about the Keating Five situation, about his vote for Martin Luther King Day, about the Iraq war — and he had, it appears, some regrets. Can you give me a sense of how he looked back at those, I guess mistakes or misjudgments and why he was willing to talk about them?

RF: Well, I think it's the way he was willing to talk about them that was so unique. I mean, having spent some time around policymakers and politicians I'm sure everyone has regrets or makes mistakes. No one's perfect and people are very imperfect. But usually politicians don't admit any of that publicly. You know, they've never changed their mind, they've always been right. There's always a logical explanation for why they did what they did — and that just wasn't McCain's style. And certainly when he made mistakes by choosing political expediency over principle, like when he came out in favour of the Confederate flag in South Carolina in 2000 and then subsequently gave a speech regretting it. I think it really got to him because he realized that that's not the kind of person he wanted to be. And, you know, that there's always going to be these dilemmas where you have political expediency versus something that you feel very strongly about and sometimes it can be hard to choose the latter rather than the former. And his record certainly was not perfect on that regard. But he was pretty open about when he thought he had done it and shouldn't have.

HM: We see today that the flag at the White House is back at full-staff. We saw President Trump issue only a tweet on Mr. McCain, Senator McCain's death and avoiding using the word hero. It's getting a lot of attention, the president's lack of response to Senator McCain's passing. What do you take from that? And can you give us a sense of the lessons you think that we can take from John McCain in this particular time in history?

RF: Well it certainly would be gracious of the president to join other Democratic leaders like the prime minister of Canada and the president of France and the prime minister of Australia and many others in talking about Senator McCain's service to the country, but at the end of the day I don't think it would've mattered any to John McCain. You know, there was a big hubbub made when then candidate Trump talked about Senator McCain and said you're not a not a war hero or something like that. And when I spoke with Senator McCain subsequent to that he didn't give it even a passing thought. I mean, he was worried about the direction of the country on policy and philosophical grounds not about whether somebody did or didn't say something nice about him. So I don't think he would have mattered. But I think there's a lesson in the reaction that you see to Senator McCain's passing. It's enormously gratifying to see so many people — Republicans, Democrats and Americans and foreigners and everyone else — express what he meant to them for those of us who worked with him or who knew him. But I think it's also indicative of a broader yearning that enough of the politics where were at each other’s throats, where people spend all day bickering and issuing press releases and tweeting and condemning each other instead of trying to unify around some basic set of principles about who we are as Americans and who we are as people. And I think that was really the lesson of Senator McCain's life and career.

HM: Richard Fontaine, it's a pleasure to talk with you even at this sad time. I'm glad you're willing to share your memories with us. Thank you.

RF: Thanks for having me.

JD: Richard Fontaine was Senator John McCain's foreign policy advisor. We reached him in Washington, D.C. earlier today. John McCain died on Saturday just shy of his 82 birthday. After this interview President Trump did issue a statement quote “Despite our differences on policy and politics I respect Senator John McCain's service to our country and in his honour have signed a proclamation to fly the flag of the United States at half-staff until the day of his interment,” unquote.

[Music: Somber Acoustic Guitar Plucks]

Paraguayan Police Guns

JD: Dateline Capiatá, Paraguay.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Paraguayan news outlets are calling it the most embarrassing scandal to hit the country's police force. It all went down without a bang, but it's given the PNP — Paraguayan National Police — plenty to whimper about because the body entrusted with keeping the peace failed to keep several of its own pieces and failed to even notice when the firearms were stolen from an armoury where they were being stored — 42 high-powered rifles to be precise. It was only when a number of the firearms began appearing on the black market that an investigation was launched. It was then discovered that the weapons had indeed been looted from storage in the city of Capiatá about 20 kilometres southeast of the capital of Asunción. Each of the Belgian-made battle rifles can fetch up to 10,000 U.S. dollars — about 13,000 Canadian — in the illicit gun trade. Now it's one thing for a police force to cop to having completely missed its rifles being rifled. But it's how the thieves pulled off the heist that really hit the PNP where it hurts — and it's why the crime went unnoticed for so long. Because the looters didn't simply take the munitions and run they replaced the stolen rifles with toys — wooden and plastic replicas incapable of firing a shot — except perhaps the one aimed directly at the forces esprit de corps. After all when you're the people charged with protecting the people it must be a huge blow to morale to be outsmarted and outgunned by mere child's play.

[Music: Theme]

Jacksonville Madden Shooting

Guest: Taylor Poindexter

JD: They were gathered to play a popular football video game — Madden — a player pulled out a gun and began shooting. Three people are dead including the gunman. 11 more injured after the shooting at a videogame competition in Jacksonville, Florida. The event was livestreamed and just before the gunfire began a red laser dot appeared on the chest of a player. Video cut out but the audio of gunshots and screaming continued to be broadcast. Taylor Poindexter was at the event with her boyfriend Marquis Williams. She sprained her ankle running from the shooting. We reached Ms. Poindexter at home in Chicago.

HM: Ms. Poindexter, what you went through yesterday is just sounds so awful. How are you doing?

TAYLOR POINDEXTER: Honestly, right now I'm okay but I'm just taking it one day at a time.

HM: Can you tell us what happened the moment you realized something was wrong?

TP: So me and my boyfriend Marquis, we were actually in the area where the competition was taking place. So we were in the middle area of the bar and from our corner we can catch a glimpse of the shooter. We saw somebody standing there with two hands on a gun they were just firing out shots.

HM: Did you see the person first or did you hear them first?

TP: We actually heard the gunshot. So the first gunshots sounded like a balloon pop and we looked around and it took a minute for us to realize there like there are no balloons here. So then after that we heard two shots, three shots, four shots. And then also we caught a glimpse of a figure sitting there with two hands on a gun. He's walking backwards still pointing it in the area of the gaming lounge. So by that time me and Marquis were on the ground crawling out to safety. I caught a glimpse of Marquis in front and I'm yelling out to him and say “Babe, babe something's wrong my ankle I can't get up to run.” So you think he comes and picks me up.

HM: So as you were running away you hurt your ankle but you weren't even aware at the time what had happened?

TP: I didn’t realize that I had hurt myself. It was just the adrenaline rush from it. I’m just in the mindset of ‘I need to get out of here I'm trying to stay alive.’ Saying to myself ‘I need to get out here, I need to be alive, I need to be alive.’ And also ‘Where is Marquis? Is he okay?’

HM: And what else did you see around you?

TP: Basically I saw other individuals that were there they were trying to escape as well. So in the process of trying to escape we both were trampled, we are basically crawling over other individuals trying to get out.

HM: You know, if anyone's heard the the audio of that livestream it is very disturbing to listen to. So have you heard that?

TP: Yes. It just brings back a flash back because I've actually seen the stream too — the video. It just brings me back to one of the Madden players that was on the video how before I was just standing next to him and I was watching somebody else's gameplay right before they happened.

HM: You mentioned when we started talking the Madden community, the people who gathered to play this game, I guess on a fairly regular basis. Did you know either of the men killed Elijah Clayton or Taylor Robertson?

TP: Not personally, but I knew of them. And for Elijah Clayton, I had a brief interaction with him just saying hello and watching some of the other games that were going on in the tournament.

HM: What have you heard about the gunman, David Katz, and what might have led up to this shooting?

TP: What I've heard of, you know, was basically that he was a player in the community. He did play in the competition I want to say in 2017. And possibly he was upset about how a game did not go in his favour.

HM: Can you imagine, you know, all this time you've been playing this game that anybody would be that angry or disturbed?

TP: I can't imagine anybody taking it so far as grabbing a weapon and just shooting up an event. No. But as things like getting upset getting riled up? Yes. Because it's like any other sport like basketball or football, we all tend to get upset or say a couple things out of anger because our favourite team may have lost — but never to a point where you will want to physically harmed somebody or even in this case murder somebody.

HM: This isn't the first mass shooting in Florida in this past year. Do you have any response to the larger issue? Do you want anything from politicians in terms of how to protect people like you?

TP: For Politicians it should be an eye opener. I'm from Chicago where we always hear about the crimes and the homicides that take place in Chicago. And I was born and raised in Chicago, not once have I ever been a situation where I have run out of an establishment to save my life. It is amazing to me that it takes me and my boyfriend to go out to a different state just to play a video game, something we’re with passionate about, turns into a situation where we had to escape an establishment to save our lives.

HM: I was going to ask about your ankle. It's starting to heal, is it?

TP: Slowly but I'm still experiencing some pain.

HM: I hope it heals well and quickly and I thank you very much for talking with us. And Marquis, is he doing okay?

TP: He just had some scratches but he's okay.

HM: All right. Ms. Poindexter, thank you for talking to us.

TP: Thank you.

JD: We reached Taylor Poindexter in Chicago.

[Music: Somber Guitar and Strings]

Ned Landry Obit

JD: In Canadian fiddle music he was a giant. Ned Landry, whose music career spanned more than seven decades, died Saturday. He was 97 years old. Landry got his start in showbiz in 1934 playing harmonica on Don Messer’s radio program Backwoods Breakdown. But the fiddle, which he taught himself to play, was his true love. He once told the CBC quote “This fiddle, it's my life.” Ned Landry racked up an impressive stack of awards and honours in his lifetime, including being named Canadian Open fiddle champion three times, receiving the Order of Canada and being inducted into the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia halls of fame.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

August 27, 2018 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode