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The AIH Transcript for March 12, 2018

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann sitting in for Carol.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

HM: Unlawful use of force. British Prime Minister Theresa May says it is highly likely that Russia is behind the poisoning of a former spy and she's now demanding an explanation from the Kremlin.

JD: X-Ray vision. The U.S. military says it's time to scrap the first installment of its Guantanamo Bay detention facility. But a New York academic wants it preserved as a memorial to what happened there.

HM: Camouflaged death traps. The death of a friend prompted Albert huskier to raise the alarm about tree wells — a hidden danger that comes with the joy of skiing amongst trees.

JD: Just wanted to flag something. The Governor General welcomes the Belgian King and Queen to Canada and then one keen-eyed royal watcher flagged an embarrassing error about his country's flag.

HM: Disquieting developments. Fresh from judging the contestants, an American composer describes what it takes to win a competition to create a musical instrument of the future.

JD: And…Photo op. A California lawmaker says it is time for the Department of Motor Vehicles to let selfie-conscious drivers pay for the privilege of having a more flattering photo on their driver's license. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio with room for a certain amount of artistic license.

Part 1: UK Spy: MP, Tree Well Skier Deaths, Belgium Flag

UK Spy: MP

Guest: Tom Tugendhat

JD: No more speculation, no more innuendo. Today British Prime Minister Theresa May has stood up in the House of Commons to say that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible for the attempted murder of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal. The attack took place in Salisbury last week. Here is some of Ms. May's speech.

SOUNDCLIP

PRIME MINISTER THERESA MAY: It is now clear that Mr. Skripal and his daughter were poisoned with a military grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. Mr. Speaker, there are therefore only two plausible explanations for what happened in Salisbury on the fourth of March. Either this was a direct act by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian government lost control of its potentially catastrophicly damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others. This afternoon my Right Honourable Friend the foreign secretary has summoned the Russian ambassador to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and asked him to explain which of these two possibilities it is — and therefore to account for how this Russian-produced nerve agent could have been deployed in Salisbury against Mr. Skripal and his daughter. Should there be no credible response, we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom. And I will come back to this house and set out the full range of measures that we will take in response. Mr. Speaker this attempted murder, using a weapons grade nerve agent in a British town, was not just a crime against the Skripals, it was an indiscriminate and reckless act against the United Kingdom, putting the lives of innocent civilians at risk. And we will not tolerate such a brazen attempt to murder innocent civilians on our soil. I commend this statement to the house.

JD: British Prime Minister Theresa May speaking in the House of Commons earlier today. Tom Tugendhat is a conservative MP and the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. We reached him in London.

HM: Mr. Tugendhat, what do you make of what the prime minister had to say in the House this afternoon.

TOM TUGENDHAT: Well, look I think the Prime Minister made absolutely the right statement. She correctly builds up the evidence and pointed the finger where the evidence led, which is to the Kremlin. And it's extremely sad that we have found ourselves in a position where the only two possible conclusions are either that President Putin has lost control of his chemical weapons stocks or that he was in some way complicit in the attack on Britain’s streets.

HM: Yeah, because Ms. May did say there was some possibility that perhaps this nerve agent might have fallen into the wrong hands, but which do you think is more likely?

TT: Well, I think it's much more likely sadly the latter. I mean, although it's quite true that Putin's grip is slipping as he ages and as he loses control of many of the oligarchs and in fact we can see this by the fact that people more and more are coming to the west, and I know they’re going to Canada, the United States and to the U.K. as they are running away and expecting the Putin regime to fall at some point. It's certainly true that that he still maintains control of the Intelligence and Security Services.

HM: The prime minister said that if Russia doesn't explain itself this will be considered an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom. Was this an act of war?

TT: Not technically, but it certainly is a warlike act, which means it's an extremely violent thing to do. And let's not forget what this chemical is, this chemical, although it was targeted at these two people, had it been dropped on the floor or, you know, opened in an airplane or something like that — and accidents as we all know do happen — then we wouldn't be talking about two victims or three victims in hospital, because of course there’s a policeman in hospital too, we’d be talking about hundreds.

HM: How do you distinguish a warlike act from an act of war?

TT: An act of war is a specific term, which declares the two countries are at war. Warlike means it is in the nature of, in the style of rather than actually being an act of war.

HM: This would be the second time in recent years that Russia has carried out an assassination attempt on British soil, of course the earlier one was successful. Why do you think Russia would feel emboldened enough to do this sort of thing repeatedly?

TT: Well, I can't speak for why Russia would feel emboldened enough. All I can say is that this is absolutely unacceptable and this is an act of terror similar in nature to the attacks that we've seen in France and in Germany carried out by Islamic jihadists, but in those cases they were controlled by individuals, whereas this time they're actually controlled by a state — and yet this is a similar sort of terror attack.

HM: And they've been occurring however in the U.K. as opposed to other nations in Western Europe. What is it about your country that it is seeing this happen?

TT: Well, they have actually occurred in other European countries too — the attempted assassination of the Montenegrin Prime Minister, the invasion of Ukraine, the capture of Crimea, the invasion of Georgia twice, the kidnapping of an intelligence officer in Estonia, the cyber-attack on Estonia, the information warfare used against the German government, the cyber-hacking of the Bundestag, the cyber-hacking of a President Macron’s election campaign. I mean, you know I can go on. This is not just happening in the United Kingdom this is happening across the western world and we know that even in the United States the Mueller investigation is looking into this very question.

HM: Do you have security concerns though? Do you think that Russian exiles living in London perhaps need to be protected more effectively than they are?

TT: Well, I think the tragedy is that this isn't just Russian exiles. Had this canister opened on the on the Underground then we wouldn't be talking about Russian exiles, we would be talking about anybody and the police officer who responded is not a Russian exile.

HM: Yes, but these people were who were targeted, we're talking about a former Russian spy and his daughter?

TT: We're talking about a former Russian intelligence officer and his daughter and indeed they appear to have been targeted. And I think it's incumbent on all of us to do the most we can to protect those in our community. But so far the real danger, there's been three people targeted by the Russian government. Certainly Alexander Litvinenko and now the Skripal of father and daughter. And you're right that we do need to do to more to make sure that we are more alert to the threats they face.

HM: So if Russia is indeed behind this and it is a deliberate act what kind of response would you like to see?

TT: Well, the Prime Minister has been clear that she is going to begin to set out a response on Wednesday if the Russian government hasn't been forthcoming with its description. And the sort of things that I would like to see are sanctions against individuals connected to the Kremlin. Unexplained Wealth orders, which are all things we use against petty criminals and these are, just let’s face it, another group of petty criminals. And indeed we need to target the people connected to the Putin family who are coming over with stolen money. I mean, let's not forget who the real losers in this 20-year campaign of kleptocracy by the Putin family are — it's the Russian people he’s stolen certainly hundreds of millions of dollars and possibly even more than that because he's reputed to have assets of some $300 billion.

HM: And so would you like to see Mr. Putin himself targeted in some way?

TT: Well, I think we should certainly be freezing his assets where we find them and I think we should be advertising where we know about them, and increasingly we do know where he's hiding his assets. Yes.

HM: Finally, I just have to ask if you can give us any new information about the condition of Mr. Skripal, his daughter Yulia, and of course, the police officer who you mentioned who was hospitalized, Nick Bailey.

TT: You know, I'm afraid I can't. I'm as well-informed as you all through the U.K. media.

HM: All right. Mr. Tugendhat, thank you very much for speaking with us.

TT: OK thanks.

JD: Tom Tugendhat is a Conservative MP and the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the British House of Commons. We reached Mr. Tugendhat in London. Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia remain in hospital along with a police officer who responded to the scene, Nick Bailey.

[Music: Somber Piano]

Operation Iraqi Freedom

JD: It has been 15 years since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Is it perhaps time for the US to say it is sorry? That was the question that Al Jazeera’s Mehdi Hasan put to retired U.S. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt Friday, Brigadier General Kimmitt was the United States deputy director of operations and chief military spokesman in Iraq from 2003 to 2004. He was not offering Mr. Hasan any apologies.

SOUNDCLIP

MEHDI HASAN: Fallujah, let’s talk about Fallujah.

MARK KIMMITT: Let's talk about Fallujah.

MH: Okay, so in Fallujah, how many civilians were killed in Fallujah do you think by the U.S. forces in 2004?

MK: I have no idea.

MH: Why?

MK: You should tell me.

MH: No, you should tell me, you were in charge of the U.S. military that was doing the killing.

MK: I wasn't in charge of the U.S. military.

MH: You were a senior commander in the U.S. military that was doing the killing.

MK: I was a senior officer in there, okay.

MH: Okay.

MK: I agree.

MH: So how many died in Fallujah?

MK: How many people died in combat inside of Fallujah?

MH: How many civilians were killed by U.S. forces in Fallujah?

MK: Intentionally?

MH: No that’s not what I asked. How many total were killed?

MK: I don't know.

MH: Do you care?

MK: I certainly care. Every loss of a civilian life…

MH you had 15 years to find out.

MK: Every loss of a civilian life is a tragedy. I accept that.

MH: If every one is a tragedy, I'm saying how many died in Fallujah?

MK: I don't know

MH: Why not? That's a bizarre thing. You go to war, you bomb a city. You don't bother to find out how many people you killed intentionally or unintentionally?

MK: We got out of the body count business years ago. The numbers, while relevant, are not something that we quote, nor do we keep in our back pocket.

MH: Different studies suggests between 800 maybe more civilians were killed in 2004 in the two attacks on Fallujah against insurgents by the U.S. military. There are documented killings by journalists on the ground.

MK: I would tell you right now that it is unfortunate every time a civilian is caught in the middle of a crossfire. Collateral damage — our soldiers go to extensive, extensive manner to try to avoid that. But there hasn't been a clean war in the history of warfare.

JD: That was retired U.S. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. For the record he's speaking to Mehdi Hasan on the Al Jazeera English television program upfront.

[Music: Whimsical Strings]

Tree Well Skier Deaths

Guest: Adam Campbell

JD: It is certainly far from uncommon for us to hear about avalanches and the deadly consequences they can have for skiers and snowboarders in the news. But Adam Campbell is raising the alarm about a lesser known hazard. Over the span of a week recently, five people died in Western Canada and the U.S., all involving something called tree wells. Mr. Campbell is a back country skier. He knew one of the people who died. We reached Adam Campbell in Calgary.

HM: Mr. Campbell, first of all I'm really sorry for your loss.

ADAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, no thank you very much. It's always difficult to lose friends, especially when they're doing something they enjoy so much, it's really sad.

HM: Have you been able to find out what happened to him on this B.C. mountain a few weeks ago?

AC: No, I don't know the exact details, but with the tree well incidents they’re generally regarded as a suffocation incidents, but I don't know the exact details of what happened in this in this circumstance.

HM: But you did hear that it was a tree well?

AC: That's correct. I did know it was a tree well.

HM: These things have been called camouflage death traps and yet, you know, those of us who don't do back country skiing really, I don't think, know very much about them. What exactly are they?

AC: I’m actually is going to correct you. I think that it's a bit of a misnomer to say that they’re back country incidents, because a lot of tree well accidents actually can happen at ski resorts specifically, and a lot of people think, you know, back country means of ski resorts. But some of the recent incidents have actually happened in controlled ski run environments. So what a tree well is — they tend to happen after heavy snow falls. Basically snow accumulates around the base of the tree. So trees with low branches will shade the trunks from snow accumulation and also the trunks, the warmth of the trunk can actually melt some of the snow around it as well, so it creates a big cavity around a tree. So what happens is the skier will be skiing along and, you know, they'll fall into one of these and get trapped in it becomes particularly lethal if you fall in headfirst, which sometimes happens.

HM: So are there certain conditions then which would tell one to be more careful around trees, that these things are more likely?

AC: Yes, it's actually a bit of a catch-22 because when it's most likely to happen after a big snow accumulation, and it's also the time when people are more likely to go skiing in trees, ironically enough, because, you know, especially if you're seeing the ski resort ,you know, a lot of the main runs get skied out quickly on a powder day. So what happens is people go looking for those fresh patches of snow and they start ducking into the trees and it's actually quite fun, you know, it gives you something to ski around, you feel like you're slalom skiing. But each of those trees it indicates a possible tree well and trap so, you know, you need to be very, very careful when that does happen. You know, we all do it. Anybody who is an avid skier loves tree skiing. So you'd be silly to say don't ski trees because we're all going do it regardless. There are some best practices you can adopt if you are going to be doing it.

HM: Like what?

AC: So a few tips, one there's really common saying in the ski world, which is “there's no friends on a powder day,” and I think that probably needs to go. There may be no friends but you definitely need a ski buddy. You need to stay see in visual contact with each other because what can happen is you may be skiing with somebody and they'll ski out to the bottom of the trees and by the time they realise their friend isn't there anymore you can't get back up to them, quite often especially with somebody suffocating, within 10 to 15 minutes that's enough time if their airway’s blocked for them to pass away. And by the time somebody is gone down, realized their friend isn’t there, have gone down and told somebody, by the time they actually get to rescue there that can take easily 20 to 30 minutes, which could be too long for somebody.

HM: And even if someone was able to find an air pocket can they be heard if they're shouting for help?

AC: Yeah, very often not because the snow really muffles the sound. And so what will happen is that, especially if somebody goes in head first, one you may have a little bit of trauma from hitting a tree, you may have damaged a body part, you may have hit your head or hurt your shoulder or something. Your skis or your poles or your snowboard may have dropped you upside down, and then as you start to move around in the snow it can be like quicksand. That snow at the bottom of the trees, it's kind of like a sandy consistency almost, it's a little bit different from the surface snow and so it can it can start to fill in the area around you and start suffocating that way as well. And so naturally you're panicking because you're stuck upside down in this well and yeah you are trying to show but the sound’s quite muffled.

HM: Is there anything someone who falls into one of these things can try to do to save themselves?

AC: Yes, so the first thing that you could do if you find yourself falling into is try to stay upright as much as possible and grab hold of branches grab hold of the trunk as you're going in to start. And then if you do find yourself tipped upside down, it's very easy to say ‘try not to panic’ and do try to create a little air pocket around your face. So whether it's by moving your arm just back and forth quite gently around your air pocket and then hope and trust that you do have friends with you. Another thing that people will do sometimes when they're skiing, this is before all this, wear bright clothing, it can make a really big difference to look for somebody when you're skiing. People also sometimes have whistles and so if you do lose contact you can start whistling.

HM: Canadian Press is reporting there were at least five fatalities involving these tree wells in a week in Western Canada and the U.S. Is that unusual?

AC: Yeah, that was a particularly high and bad statistic. I think there's a few reasons for it. Most of western North America got a really, really heavy snow dump a couple of weeks ago and it makes for great skiing, especially in March when the days will get longer, it’s a little bit warmer, people get drawn out there. But it was also a bit of an arctic front, so snow that fell was quite a bit lighter than it often is. So I think that added to the risk. There are a lot of people out skiing these days. I think that one of the incidents that happened was a back country skiing incident and that was somebody from Canmore, which is a town I spend quite a lot of time in. Then my friend’s incident was also a back country kind of scenario, but then the other incidents were all inbound skiers or snowboarders. So, you know, it can happen to skiers in any environment.

HM: Is there anything resorts can do to try to prevent this?

AC: Well, I think just awareness. You know, having conversations like this, having signage up, you know, even having something on the chairlift on the way up. Resorts do a very good job at notifying people but I think it's one of those risks and hazards that isn't discussed enough in the skiing community. And I think people should have a little bit of a responsibility themselves as well. Don't ski by yourself in the trees. There is a really big risk of it. It’s a ton of fun, we all do, it but it's very, very risky and don't underestimate the risk.

HM: Mr. Campbell, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your advice today. Appreciate it.

AC: Thanks a lot.

JD: Adam Campbell is a back country skier. We reached him in Calgary.

[Music: Piano Ballad]

Belgium Flag

Guest: Wim Dehandschutter

JD: The King and Queen of Belgium are here. They're in Ottawa as part of the first royal visit to Canada by the King and Queen of Belgium in 40 years. During the last visit in 1977 the late former King and Queen each planted a tree at Rideau Hall. And so in honour of today's royal visit, Canada decorated those two sugar maples. The King’s, as you may expect, got a Canadian and a Belgian flag. The Queen's got a Canadian flag as well but then it also had a German flag. Wim Dehandschutter is a Belgian journalist and one of the first to spot the mistake. We reached him in Ottawa.

HM: Mr. Wim Dehandschutter,can you give us a picture, first of all, of this event today? Set the scene perhaps, who was there?

WIN DEHANDSCHUTTER: Our King and Queen they were welcomed in Canada by your Governor General. Afterwards they planted the tree and they noticed the mistake made by the Canadians.

HM: Yeah. Let's talk about that mistake. How obvious was it?

WD: Well, it was obvious. Theoretically it's a big mistake if you confuse the German and the Belgian flag in diplomatic activities — so it's a big mistake. But the good thing was that the King and the Queen didn't notice the mistake live. We had to wait for our King and Queen as a journalist and we notice the mistake. So the Canadian organs organization they removed the German flag. So our King and Queen didn't see the mistake live. But afterwards I posted some pictures about the mistake on my social media, my newspaper wrote articles about it, other Belgian media did it. In the meantime Canadian media already wrote about it so our King and Queen they know at this moment what happened in Rideau Hall.

HM: Oh great. We could have got away with it.

WD: Yes.

HM: Until you were spotting this thing. What was the talk about the Belgian media when you saw this happen? Because, you know, I have to admit the flags do look rather similar, right?

WD: Yeah, yeah they look very similar because they have the same colours — black, yellow and red — but the combination is different. But it's already happened several times that people mixed up the German flag and the Belgian one. But this can't happen at the state visit, the state visit is the most important practical event which can happen between two heads of states. So at this event this can't happen. That's the problem with the confusion about flags.

HM: But you say it hasn't happened at maybe a state event, but has it happened at other times?

WD: Of course, it's already happened several times. But those events where it happened they were less important than this one, so it's not a big, big problem it's still embarrassing if it happens. But if it happens at the state visit it's very embarrassing in my opinion.

HM: So who told the officials that Rideau Hall about the problems so that they were able to get the flag out of there?

WD: Well, I have to tell you as a journalist we had to wait for King and Queen for their arrival at the grounds of Rideau Hall and then we noticed as journalists this problem we took pictures of it and we made videos of it. So the organization of Canada knows that we were taking pictures of it. We informed them about it. So they had time to remove it. But in the meantime journalists they already made pictures and videos of it so people know nowadays about this problem.

HM: So if the Canadian government was tempted to thank you for pointing that out, they maybe thought twice about that after they saw that you'd published it anyway?

WD: Well that’s the silly thing maybe that the King and the Queen they didn't notice the slight confusion but by writing and taking pictures of it they know that it happened.

HM: Right. Now that wasn't the only mix up. As I understand it, in addition to the flag the King and Queen were also welcomed in German but not in Flemish, is that right?

WD: Your Governor General she welcomed indeed our King and Queen in German, then in French and then in English — but not in Dutch. So I think she confused German with Dutch. In fact the languages are very similar to each other but it's a totally different language. And in Belgium there are only 70,000 people speaking German. But on the other hand six million Belgians speak Dutch or Flemish. So there's a big difference. So as I told you I think she mixed up both languages.

HM: How did the royals react to that?

WD: Well, they are very professional. And so you can’t see if they are confused about it or they are angry about it. And I think for our King and Queen the slight confusion is a very strange welcome. For them it's in some ways embarrassing as well because they have to handle with it. And they maybe they are angry but they can't show that they are angry about it.

HM: Do you know how this visit is going over back in Belgium, how people are responding, I guess not just to the mix up, but to the whole thing?

WD: It's a funny story. I was asked by another Canadian journalist if this state is in danger because of mistakes made by the Canadians. Of course it's not in danger. The state says it doesn't have to be rescued but as a start of the state visit, it's well, it's a bad one let me tell you this.

HM: Hopefully it'll get better from here on in.

WD: It will. I’m sure of it.

HM: Mr. Dehandschutter, thank you very much for talking to us.

JD: Wim Dehandschutter is a Belgian journalist. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient Bass Tones]

Part 2: Camp X-Ray, Suzanne Ciani

Camp X-Ray

Guest: Liz Shevchenko

JD: The list of those who would like to say good riddance to Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay now includes the U.S. government. Last week it announced plans to bulldoze the first facility at Gitmo where so-called enemy combatants were detained. Liz Shevchenko however says the camp needs to be preserved as a reminder. Ms. Shevchenko is the director of the Guantanamo Public Memory Project. We reached her in Rome.

HM: Ms. Shevchenko, what was your first reaction to this announcement of plans to bulldoze Camp X-Ray?

LIZ SHEVCHENKO: I was not only disappointing but a little bit scared for the future, I have to say.

HM: Why is that?

LS: Because once you tear down the physical fabric of a place like that and the sort of authentic place that that physical fabric represents, you can never recreate it and you can never put it back. And that prevents future generations from being able to make sense of what happened there, to understand what happened there and grapple with its implications, which change with every passing generation.

HM: What remains of Camp X-Ray? What is there, what does it look like right now?

LS: It's a very aggressive and verdant climate. So although it was put under preservation order in 2005, by that point and certainly by now, it had been completely swallowed by vegetation. So this is the place that is foremost I think in most people's minds when they kind of imagine Guantanamo. It was the first place to be photographed. There were these iconic images of men in orange jumpsuits kneeling in cages, surrounded by cages, with guards standing by and these sort of seared into the consciousness of the global public in trying to understand what was happening at Guantanamo. It's crumbling, it is in very deteriorated condition as reports bring back.

HM: You mentioned a preservation order. Who issued that order?

LS: A U.S. district court judge. I mean, I have to say, it's the lawyers on behalf of the detainees that have become Guantanamo historic preservationists — by necessity. They can only petition on behalf of individual people not on behalf of places, so they have tried to get the U.S. government or the Department of Defense to have to preserve any and all evidence that relates to detainees that have — evidence relating to the torture or detention of people that have been held at Guantanamo Bay. But this is not — it hasn't had a lot of teeth. So basically what it meant is that it's a very difficult thing to challenge. So sometimes there's been stuff that has been done in secret, like places have been destroyed in secret and other times the government just sort of informs the court that this is what it plans to do and there's not so much that the lawyers can do. It's very difficult to contest it.

HM: So the lawyers desire to see this preserved. How much is that about collection of evidence?

LS: What's interesting is that it began as an argument about the collection of evidence, but lately they've begun to research and think about building arguments about the affective qualities of this space. In other words, they've begun to realize that it's not only about the empirical kind of forensic evidence of what happened there, it's also about how you feel and the larger conscience of foundation of future conscience that places like that raise. That there's no way else for someone to really grapple with all that happened at a place like that except by standing on the site.

HM: As you know the Pentagon argues it doesn't need to preserve the site because the FBI has created a 3-D digital reconstruction. What do you make of that argument?

LS: The representation of a place is not the same as the place. If you destroy the original fabric of the place, you destroy our capacity to fully understand and wrestle with what happened there. So destroying the physical fabric basically destroys a whole host of evidence, not only now, but that could be gleaned in the future. And the second is that you only — again the affect, the emotional quality of a space like that — you can't really inhabit or imagine or grapple with whatever meaning it is that you as an individual are going to gather from a place like that unless you can physically inhabit it. And that's why, again, so many places all around the world have gone to such lengths to preserve, not to just create 3-D virtual tours of Robben Island or Auschwitz or any place that people have struggled with in the past but they have gone to great lengths to preserve the original place.

HM: You know, there are many Americans who think incarcerating people at a place like Guantanamo is justified given what happened around 9/11. They're going to be horrified by hearing you compare that site to places like Auschwitz or the Argentinian military detention sites. Does it really compare with those kind of places?

LS: I don't think it compares, the story and the history doesn't compare with those at all. People who identify with those histories would feel just as horrified. I think the importance of the comparison is that it's precisely because we don't yet know what happened at Guantanamo and precisely because people have so many different feelings and understandings about what happened there, that that is precisely why it's so important not to tear it down.

HM: Ms. Shevchenko, thank you very much for speaking with us.

LS: Thank you so much for having me.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

LS: Bye.

JD: Liz Shevchenko is the director of the Guantanamo Public Memory Project. We reached her in Rome.

[Music: 90s Hip-Hop]

Sister Catherine Rose Holzman obit

JD: To Katy Perry please stop. It's not doing anyone any good except hurting a lot of people. Those are some of Sister Catherine Rose Holzman’s last words, given to a TV reporter outside a Los Angeles courthouse on Friday. Hours later, during the proceedings, Sister Holzman collapsed and died. She was 89 years old. Sister Holzman was a member of the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The sisters have been battling pop star Katy Perry since 2015. At the centre of the dispute is who is allowed to sell the convent property once inhabited by the nuns. Katy Perry wants to buy it from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and she wants to live there. The nuns say the convent is theirs to sell to their own buyer. Sister Holzman was on this program back in 2015. She spoke to guest host Susan Bonner. Here's some of that interview from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

SISTER CATHERINE ROSE HOLZMAN: I didn't know anything about her till all this happened. I went on the internet and Googled her name. I found that she was a seemingly nice, lovely lady, but I just didn't care for the videos that I looked at. They were a surprise to me. And I just saw what would be going against what the sisters taught in school.

SUSAN BONNER: In what way?

CRH: In the way of her lifestyle and her songs.

SB: Can you tell me what it was that you saw that you didn't like?

CRH: Well, it was the witchcraft and the devil worship.

SB: When you actually met her, she came down to the convent to try to convince you to sell the property to her. What did she say? What did she do?

CRH: She was very nice, she was lovely and she was dressed nicely. She was friendly but she told us that she would like to have the place, it was like a dream come true for her, she wanted it for her home. She loved the place.

SB: But there's a dispute over this property now. Tell me why you and the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart believe the property is yours and you have the right to sell it?

CRH: Because the benefactor, Sir Daniel Donohue, gave it to us and we paid for it. It belongs to us. It was given to us.

JD: From our archives that was Sister Catherine Rose Holzman of the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Sister Holzman died Friday in court for a hearing into her ongoing battle with pop star Katy Perry. Sister Holzman was 89 years old.

Suzanne Ciani

Guest: Suzanne Ciani

JD: If you are in a competition to design a new instrument you would want Suzanne Ciani to be on the panel of judges. The Grammy-nominated composer has consistently pushed the boundaries of how we make music and how we listen to music. She is a pioneer in the world of electronic music and her catalog defies genre. Ms. Ciani’s work has ranged from New Age to Avant Garde and from Classical to commercial. And she has created the sounds for everything from pinball machines to disco versions of the Star Wars theme. Last week Ms. Ciani judged the Georgia Institute of Technology's annual Margaret Guthman Musical Instrument competition. Nine finalists presented their designs for instruments of the future. We reached Ms. Ciani back in her studio on Bolinas, California.

HM: Suzanne Ciani, was it difficult to pick a winner at this year's competition?

SUZANNE CIANI: Yes, it was. And I hate being a judge because I just loved everybody, I wanted them all to win.

HM: So for you what's the most important thing?

SC: Because I am a Buchla-ist I play an analog modular music instrument and my personal mission is to advance the design of that type of instrument. So I was drawn to instruments that demonstrated a technology that could apply to the future.

HM: So to give our listeners an idea of what some of these new instruments sound like we're going to play a clip of the top three designs. But listen to those first and then I'll get you to weigh in. Here we go.

SOUNDCLIP

WARPED SOUNDS

SOUNDCLIP

DISTORTED HORN SOUNDS

SOUNDCLIP

ELECTRONIC MELODY

HM: So in order that was the Microtonal Ocarine, which came in third. It was followed by the Gram FX, which came second — finally, the first place winner, the Hyper Drumhead. Can we go through those. Maybe start with the Microtonal Ocarina.

SC: Yes. I mean that was an unusual project because it really didn't have any technological side. It was a set of ceramic ocarinas, and the beauty of this was that it was really a group instrument, but all of these ocarina are different sizes and 40 people can pick up a little ocarina of a different size so they have different frequency responses and play instantly in a group. This is stunning to me because of the one the spatial characteristic of it. It would be wonderful for children, you could see a classroom with all the kids kind of making bird calls with these ocarina and it was just a very elegant and wonderfully grounded invention.

HM: So what about the Gram FX.

SC: It's really a combination of old and new. So she had taken an old manually-winding turntable and she pumped up that turntable and then she played it spatially by waving her hands in the air above the turntable and it was kind of like a mad combination of popular deejay with, you know, high tech implications. It was an invention and was she was the only female entrant in this group and we all know that, you know, women have a very original take on technology and we were all very impressed with her ability to pull off this interactive machine.

HM: Finally, the winner Hyper Drumhead, what made that so special?

SC: That is my favourite area because what this is a graphic interface, and I think the future of electronic music design must incorporate graphics. You know, we all have iPads, and phones and we're all moving our fingers over screens and actually that is an important interface in the future of instruments. And this fellow from Italy designed this very large table surface, and he did all of that technology from scratch. He actually designed the sounds in the machine language, and I'm really excited about collaborating with him possibly in the future.

HM: You know, I was looking at a piece of tape online of an interview you did with David Letterman many years ago. And what stood out was that you said to the audience this is a synthesizer. We maybe forget that people fairly recently really didn't know much about these. There was no manual when you started, a lot of trial and error. What kind of challenges do people have when they're trying to come up with new sounds, new technology, new ways of performing using these different instruments?

SC: I think part of the problem is to just communicate with the audience. When they don't understand the instrument they really don't feel comfortable interpreting what they're hearing. They don't know what it is. The beauty of the Guthman is that the inventor actually performs the instrument and they explain it. And it's still mysterious, you know, technology can be hidden but part of the excellence of an instrument is that it does communicate the interrelationship of the action of the human body with the sound that you hear. If somebody makes a gesture and you hear a change in the result, in the music then you start to be comfortable in what it all means. I think it's very difficult for modern audiences to sit and watch a performance on a laptop where they just see the eyeballs above the screen and somebody hits play and you don't know what's going on.

HM: So what's it like for you, given your many years pushing boundaries, to see a new generation of designers following in your footsteps and trying to go even further?

SC: I am so excited about this because my personal mission has been to design a new instrument. And I've been working on this for a year-and-a-half because the inventor of my instrument, Don Buchla, passed away last year. I have come back into performing on the Buchla. When I did it 40 years ago nobody understood it and it was frustrating, very frustrating to the point I gave up. Now I go out and there is a sea of young people who understand what's going on. And for me it's a sheer joy that I can communicate with people who already speak my language.

HM: Suzanne Ciani, it's a pleasure to speak with you, thank you very much and I understand you are going to play us out with some of the sounds that you've been experimenting with.

Thank you Helen. And yeah I can easily — I'm here in front of my Buchla and I’ll just let you hear some of the practice that I'm doing for my Kennedy Center performance coming up this week.

SOUNDCLIP

AMBIENT ELECTRONIC TONES

JD: This is Suzanne Ciani, we're listening to her and her Bolinas, California studio. We have some video from the Guthman and more about Ms. Ciani’s career at www.cbc.ca/aih.

California Vanity Licenses

JD: Josh Newman wants to put a whole new spin on the syntax. The California state senator isn't going after gambling or booze — the state has done all that before. No, Senator Newman thinks he has identified an untapped and virtually eternally renewable resource in California — our vanity as vehicle of choice the driver's license photograph. When was the last time you looked at yours? Does it do you justice? Did the exhausted bureaucrat who took it truly capture your essence? Senator Newman hopes you don't think so, not if you live in California. And that is why he has introduced a bill SB-1407. If passed into law it would allow drivers in that state to go to the Department of Motor Vehicles and have photo, after photo, after photo taken until finally they got one they like. They choose that one, but each of the photos would require a fee. Alternatively drivers could, for an even bigger fee, bring in a photograph taken by a pro as long as it meets the DMV’s requirements. Now what might all these fees add up to? Well, in famously vein California the senator believes they might translate into free driver's education for cash-strapped young people across the state. Now the bill still has a ways to go, it was just introduced. Senator Newman says he's got support though, and with the governor's OK, Californians could be lining up for their vanity licenses by the end of the summer.

[Music: Luau]

Elon Musk

SOUNDCLIP

ELON MUSK SINGING: My little buttercup, why don’t you stay awhile.

JD: A sing-along led by Elon Musk and his brother Kimbal. They performed yesterday wearing cowboy hats at South by Southwest. Mr. Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX, made a surprise appearance at the festival and the conference. And you might say that the tone of that song was much more jolly than the other parts of his presentation. During the Q and A Mr. Musk said that artificial intelligence was quote “much more dangerous than nukes.” And then there was his mention of the Dark Ages and World War 3, leading up to his prediction that his Mars rocket could start short flights next year. Here's some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

ELON MUSK: If you know that there’s likely to be — we don't know — but there's likely to be another dark images, which it seems my guess is that there probably will be at some point. I’m not predicting that we’re about to enter the Dark Ages, but that there’s some probability that we will, particularly if there is a third World War. Then we want make sure that there's enough of us a seed of human civilization somewhere else to bring civilization back, and perhaps shorten the length of the Dark Ages. I think that's why it's important to get a self-sustaining base, ideally on Mars because Mars is far enough away from Earth that a war on Earth the Mars base might survive. It’s more likely to survive than a moon base. But I think a moon base and a Mars base that could perhaps help regenerate life Earth would be really important to get that done before a possible World War 3.

JD: Tesla and SpaceX founder Elon Musk speaking yesterday at South by Southwest.

Part 3: Doug Ford: Frank Klees, Doug Ford: Robyn Doolittle, Fake Desk

Doug Ford: Frank Klees

Guest: Frank Klees

JD: Doug Ford is ready to build a giant neon sign at the U.S. border telling Americans that Ontario is open for business. He says that's just one of his plans if he becomes Ontario's next premier. Mr. Ford is one step closer to that goal. The former Toronto city councillor and brother of former Mayor Rob Ford, was elected leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party over the weekend. It was a contentious leadership convention. Mr. Ford beat out Christine Elliott by a very narrow margin. Frank Klees was there. Mr. Klees is a former Ontario cabinet minister himself. He supported Mr. Ford's campaign. We reached Mr. Klees in Toronto.

HM: Frank Klees, you were known to be a supporter of Doug Ford. What's it like for you to see him become the new leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party?

FRANK KLEES: Well, it's a good day for Ontario. Doug is exactly what this province needs. I've known Doug for more than 20 years, knowing him to be a man of principle of his word. He is someone who understands business and politics. He has experience and I think he has the courage to do what has to be done to move this province forward.

HM: A lot of people looking at the process over the weekend, looking at Mr. Ford's victory are talking about him and his history and seeing him as a divisive figure. What do you know about him, what do you see that that those people don't?

FK: I see the man firsthand I know Doug and he certainly isn't the caricature that some in the media would like to present. Doug is someone who has a passion for public service. There is no benefit to him leaving his business and taking time away from his family to do this. This is going to be a significant sacrifice for him. What I also know about Doug is that he's practical. He is going to make decisions in the best interest of this province. And the other thing I know about Doug is that he is an excellent communicator. You know he likes to keep things simple.

HM: But in sometimes in keeping things simple he's been accused of saying things that aren't necessarily correct. I mean the former Toronto police chief, who's now a Liberal MP had threatened to sue him after statements he made alleging that the force had somehow colluded with the Toronto Star when it came to its reporting on Rob Ford.

FK: Well, you know, I don't know anything about that. I suppose in everyone's life there are times when either they misspeak or they are misunderstood. And I think sometimes people are taken aback by someone who speaks, you know, forthrightly. And I think actually that's going to be an appeal.

HM: How does someone that forceful, with that strong a personality and a way of expressing himself heal divisions within the party? Because it would certainly appear less socially-conservative old school red Tories might have differences with some of the more right wing members of your party.

FK: I think the healing, quite frankly, is done. And I really believe that this business of a fractured party is more a wish of those in opposition to us, in the other two parties, than reality. I mean, all you have to do is take a look at how caucus has been reacting to his election. There isn't one who has held back, very enthusiastic congratulations to Doug and offered to come on the front lines. What we have to do now, and what we're in the process of doing, is focusing on the important issues and that is getting our ground team in place, getting ready to move forward, get Doug out and make sure that as many people in this province get to know him firsthand because when he connects with people, he connects with people and they respond. And I believe this is going to be a very exciting campaign and it's going to be a very positive time for this province.

HM: You don't have a lot of time to get your ground game on, of course as you know, and how do you get the party's message out beyond some of the controversy that you've been dealing with — beyond Patrick Brown, the convention itself, the many members who complained they didn't even get a chance to vote? I'm seeing on social media people saying well if you couldn't handle this convention how are you going to handle budget in the tens of billions of dollars?

FK: My response to those people is that the people who are going to be responsible for the budget of this province are not the members of that committee who botched this process and couldn't get it right until the last number of hours. So that's not what we're dealing with, we're dealing with a very strong caucus, a very strong candidacy across the province from people of all walks of life who bring business experience and professional experience to the table. Those are the people who will be entrusted to govern our province and to bring some good, solid, transparent management to the province of Ontario.

HM: Mr. Klees, I appreciate taking the time to speak with us today. Thank you so much.

FK: Thank you.

JD: Frank Klees is a former Ontario Conservative MPP and a Doug Ford supporter. We reached him in Toronto.

Doug Ford: Robyn Doolittle

Guest: Robyn Doolittle

JD: Robyn Doolittle covered Mr. Ford's career at the Toronto city council. She is an investigative reporter for The Globe and Mail and she is the author of Crazy Town: The Rob Ford Story. We reached Robyn Doolittle in Toronto.

HM: Robin Doolittle, why do you think Doug Ford won the Ontario PC Party leadership race this weekend?

ROBYN DOOLITTLE: Oh geez, I mean, I think he was always going to be a strong contender. He's got great name recognition. He's been around. He is riding this wave of populism that we've been seeing for years. I mean, we saw it with Rob Ford's victory back in 2010.

HM: Frank Klees, the former Ontario cabinet minister and Doug Ford supporter, just told us that Doug Ford has a passion for public service, that he's a man of his word. You covered Doug Ford at City Hall in Toronto. What are your thoughts and memories of that time?

RD: Yeah, it's kind of nuts. I mean, a lot of us who were there during the City Hall years have all been texting like ‘oh my God here we go again.’ Look, Doug Ford was part of a really chaotic time at Toronto City Hall. There was, you know, the stuff with his brother, with the late Rob Ford's personal problems, but apart from those things, what you kind of forget about is there was just a lot of fighting at City Hall. Tensions were very high. There was a feeling that the Ford administration was bullying the public service, other councillors, impropriety around the rules of how council and city governance is supposed to work. I did a lot of reporting that my colleague Greg McArthur on how Doug Ford and Rob Ford’s family business, Deco Labels, their work with City Hall was intertwined with their business dealings. And the integrity commissioner at City Hall just found that Doug Ford, specifically, acted improperly. So he's a colourful guy. I mean, the big thing that he will always be remembered for at City Hall was thinking about the waterfront and he kind of out of the blue was like “I think we should build a Ferris wheel on the waterfront and the Port Lands,” and, you know, the sentiment is good, but it's that kind of lack of understanding of how the system works. And then was very frustrated that people were like we've already done all this work. And I think that will be the really interesting thing if and when he becomes premier is how that applies in a in a provincial setting.

HM: He's known, as was Rob Ford, for efforts to be a populist figure. They had the Ford family barbecue every year, lots of free food, t shirts that sort of thing. He also was criticized for handing out $20 bills to people who could really use that money, at a time when you know he was seeking office.

RD: Yeah, I mean this is the whole thing with their brand is some people see it as ‘That’s great of course, I want 20 bucks,’ and some people will kind of step back and go ‘This is wrong literally handing someone a twenty dollar bill. You look like you're literally buying that vote.’ But that is kind of what the Fords were always good at is don't get too mired in the details, just stay top level. And that is where Doug Ford I think stands a really good chance of becoming premier is he's not going to get down into the details. And elections are a hard time to have discussions about details. He's not expected to get down into the detail.

HM: You tweeted that you thought the big hurdle for him was winning this party leadership. Do you think that he really will become Ontario's next premier?

RD: I don't see how he's not going to become the next premier. Like Donald Trump — and I hate making that very obvious Trump-Ford comparison — but there are lines there. But the issue is getting through the party establishment who are details people, who know there's policy in place. There's a way of doing things and the understanding of how politics works, and the nuance there. And so his hurdle is always kind of getting through that you know to quote him a ‘leak barrier.’ But now that he's there he's ahead of the PC party. There's only three parties, one of them is deeply unpopular, one of them, the NDP is viewed as maybe not a viable option to run the province right now. So I think of course he stands a very, very good chance.

HM: So do you think that people will recognize Ontario, say a year or two, three, four years down the road after a Doug Ford premiership?

RD: To me the real thing here is about the tone of discussion in society. That's the real thing people would be thinking about is, “Are you okay with the kind of politics that he runs?”

HM: He once called you mentally unstable.

RD: Yeah, like that that's an example. He would be upset with me and in my reporting that I was doing my job. And, you know, as I said at the time, if you're covering City Hall and you find out that the mayor is smoking crack with alleged gang members and you don't cover that, then why are you in this job? So I'm just doing my job. And then he would go on radio and call me mentally unstable and make up stories that I was stalking his family or hiding in the bushes and then I would get real, legitimate death threats and people trying to find my home and where I live and mailing me letters to my home threatening to kill me or rape me. And he didn't seem concerned that the stuff that he's saying on the radio would have consequences, and that I'm not the only one. This came about with everyone who kind of opposed him as opposed to just having, you know, a regular discussion or war of words I guess in some sense, the incitement of violence and that tone is really definitely concerning and troubling and people have to really ask is that what we want. Maybe it isn't, but they also want to get rid of the Liberals. Would you be willing to hold your nose and vote for Doug Ford? Again, in perspective, he doesn't have nuclear codes so maybe they'd be willing to think what kind of damage could he do.

HM: Robyn it's a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much.

RD: Thank you.

HM: Bye-bye.

JD: Robyn Doolittle is an investigative reporter for the Globe and Mail and the author of Crazy Town: The Rob Ford Story. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: Drums & Shakers]

Ruth Wilensky obit

JD: Mile End in Montreal is home to some really iconic and globally important foods. With our apologies to New York City, it is where the only true bagels are to be found. Schwartz's is there. It's untouchable. Oh my gosh the smoked meat — so good. And then there is Wilensky's Light Lunch, which looks every single minute of its 86 years in operation. That is where you will find the Wilensky Special — and that special consists of Bologna, salami and cheese, all squashed between two cornmeal-dusted buns — don't forget the mustard. Well, Ruth Wilensky did not forget. Ms. Wilensky was the driving force at will Wilensky’s after the death of the founder, her husband Mo. And now Ruth Wilensky has also died. She was 98 years old. Paul Scheffer has worked at Lansky's for 17 years. He spoke to CBC Montreal's Daybreak about his beloved boss.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL SCHEFFER: Ruth was a wonderful, wonderful lady. I've known her for 55 years, I’ve worked with her personally for 12 to 14 years before she retired, and I kept in touch with her till she got sick. And the last time I actually spoke to her physically was I think in May when she came into the store to celebrate our 85^th anniversary and we had a wonderful conversation. She was doing better than I was. She never stopped. She was really a great woman. I was there at 7:30 in the morning, she was there before me. She had the coffee running, she had the grills running. When I came in at 7:30 she’d say ‘Paul, sit down have your coffee, have your toast and then we'll both start working.’ Like I said, she treated me as one of her own. And because, like I said, I knew her from way back. I was very good friends with her oldest son who didn't work there. So I started eating there in 1965. Nothing has changed. She had a lot of friends, a lot of people came in and you know when she wanted to talk to them she’d talk to them. If she had nothing to say or she was busy, you know, she was busy on the grill. She and I worked the grill by ourselves. And when it was time to give it up, then her son Asher really took over. I loved her as a mother and we had a great rapport.

JD: Paul Scheffer of Wilensky’s Light Lunch in Montreal, speaking to CBC's Mike Finnerty. Ruth Wilensky died Friday. She was 98 years old.

[Music: Electric Guitar Melody]

Fake Desk

Guest: Clayton Pennington

JD: For years Harold Gordon's big lie remained a secret — that lie took the form of a desk. It started out as an unremarkable piece of furniture, then Mr. Gordon handcrafted it into a truly remarkable forgery — a civil war fake that fooled the American antiquities world — until now. In the last few weeks Mr. Gordon's lie unraveled. He has confessed to creating the elaborately decorated writing cabinet and the back story that augmented its value. Clayton Pennington broke the story in his magazine The Maine Antique Digest. We reached Mr. Pennington in Waldoboro, Maine.

HM: Mr. Pennington, you have called this desk one of the best folk art fakes of all time. So who is this master forger who created it, Harold Gordon?

CLAYTON PENNINGTON: Mr. Gordon is a long-time dealer in Massachusetts who has been in the trade for years. I did not know him before we wrote the story, but others in the trade knew him.

HM: But you had seen the piece, as I understand it, when it was up for auction in 2015 — six figures that was being sought. Can you tell us what made it so valuable, or at least appear so valuable?

CP: Yeah sure, it was at a show actually not an auction, and that thing was supposedly a memorial to one of these brothers had died at Antietam during the Civil War and it was just an amazing piece of furniture. The furniture itself was not amazing but the adornment on it was amazing. You know, when you opened the door it played Yankee Doodle Dandy, it had a piece of a regimental flag on it, Latin sayings, an eagle with a clock on top. I mean, the thing was just absolutely over the top.

HM: Were you yourself fooled by it?

CP: Absolutely. I saw it in the booth at the Winter Antique Show in York City. I was absolutely blown away by it, thought it was one of my favorite things in the show.

HM: What made it look so authentic?

CP: I don't know, it had a head aging to it. Nothing about it did not look authentic, let’s put it that way, and just the story behind it was so strong.

HM: Right. So a dealer named Allan Katz, who had bought it from Mr. Gordon, he was the one selling the piece back around that era right?

CP: Yes.

HM: And who did he sell it to?

CP: He sold it to the Wadsworth Atheneum, which is in Hartford, Connecticut. I think it's the oldest public museum in the United States.

HM: And how much did they pay for it?

CP: No idea. It's undisclosed.

HM: So Mr. Katz, the museum, you yourself, a raft of other experts were fooled by this thing. The story started to fall apart because a pair of photographs that you got your hands on, one expert in your story called those photos a smoking gun. What do they show?

CP: Well, actually the smoking gun was the first photo, which was the base secretary without any decoration on it. And the gentleman who said it was a smoking gun is an expert in this furniture’s era. He said that is a piece made by a country cabinet maker. You will never find another combination of drawers and doors in that form again. You could look for a thousand years and not find another one so that was the base piece and that photo was traded around a group of concerned antiquarians in the Northeast saying ‘Look here here's this base and here's the decorated piece. Something's not right here.’

HM: So how did Mr. Gordon finally confess to the forgery?

CP: Well, during the course of my story I talked to Allan Katz the dealer. I sent him a copy of the photo and said look this is what's floating around. What do you think? And he took one look at the unadorned photo and said ‘You're right, it's a fake.’ Between the time I sent him that photo I discovered another photo of the same desk completely decorated and it was in the same corner of the same room as the unadorned photo.

HM: So just clear up for us again who did he confess to first, how did that come about?

CP: He confessed to Allan Katz first.

HM: And then he owned up to you as well?

CP: Right. I called Gordon the next day and he absolutely owned up to it.

HM: What did Mr. Gordon say about why he did this?

CP: He said he needed the money.

HM: Pretty straightforward.

CP: Pretty straightforward. He said he made it for himself, for his own amusement, had it in his house for a while, fell on some hard times and needed some money and finally sold it.

HM: But he obviously tried to create it in a style that could pass for that era. Did he really suggest that he wasn't trying initially to make it look like a fake?

CP: That's a better question for him, I guess. I mean, he said that he tried to put himself into the mindset of a craftsman in that era when he created it. So, you know, he studied Latin to get the phrases right that were on the thing. Whether it was made as fake to deceive to sell initially I don't know — he claims it wasn't, but that's how it ended up.

HM: What about Mr. Katz, what's he done now that he knows about the forgery?

CP: Mr. Katz did absolutely the right thing, as soon as he found out it was a forgery he called the Wadsworth Atheneum the next day and immediately offered them a refund and take their money back.

HM: What happened to the piece?

CP: Mr. Katz still owns it as far as I know. Where it's going to end up, nobody knows. It should end up in a museum somewhere as a study piece because it is a fantastic forgery. But that's up to Allan.

HM: It's not unusual for forgeries, if they're really good, to be shown off that way, right?

CP: Right. I mean, this thing's going to make the fake lecture circuit for years to come. No doubt about it.

HM: Mr. Gordon, what happens to him now? I mean, does he seem remorseful, were where does his life go now?

CP: He absolutely was remorseful. Where does his life go now? Anything that has passed through his hands now is going to have a cloud over it. There's always going to be a question, no matter how right the piece is, no matter how good it is, it's always going to be a question that it went through his hands. As far as paying back Allan Katz, that's up to Mr. Katz and himself.

HM: All right. Mr. Pennington, sounds like he did some interesting detective work. Thanks for sharing the story with us.

CP: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

HM: Bye-bye.

CP: Bye.

HM: Clayton Pennington first reported this story. He is the editor of the Maine Antique Digest. We reached him in Waldoboro, Maine. To see the smoking gun photographs of the desk before and after the forgery, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Lucie Brock Broido

JD: During a discussion streamed online in 2014 the American poet Luci Brock Broido was explaining the challenges of writing and she took a moment to share an observation she had heard.

SOUNDCLIP

LUCIE BROCK BROIDO: I wanted to say this wonderful definition from a fourth grader in California, who said that poem is an egg with horses in it.

JD: That is the kind of metaphor that Ms. Brock Broido loved — and the kind that she created herself. Writing about her last book, poet and critic Dan Chasan said quote “Her poems can be baffling, but because of their stylish spookiness, some combination of Poe and Stevie Nicks, they are never boring.” The widespread expressions of grief and of love that followed Ms. Brock Broido’s death last week at 61 years old, show that she also was never boring. To her fellow poets and writers, her students, her readers, her elusive and often funny often heartbreaking work was inspirational. And if it was baffling there was no doubt the mystery was worth trying to solve. Ms. Brock Broido’s first book, the 1988 collection, A Hunger, featured appearances from Herodotus and Hitchcock and a long poem from the point of view of baby Jessica McClure. Baby Jessica, of course, who spent 58 hours trapped in a well. She wrote just three other books over the next 30 years. In a review of Lucy Brock Broido’s Stay, Illusion, the great critic Helen Vendler said quote “Her poems are domestic and grand, melancholy and sparkling, contemporary and archaic, plain and wizardly, American and European. She memorializes moments at once unforgettable and inconspicuous.” When Stay, Illusion was nominated for National Book Award in 2013, Ms. Brock Broido appeared at a reading event for the finalists. Here's what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

LBB: I'm going to read one poem and it's 12 lines long and it has the most brilliant title in the world and I can say that because it's Kafka verbatim. I also I always carry around titles which can provoke poems and I sort of import from one to another to see if another poem will come out of it. And some of these would include another Kafka title. Actually a Kafka short story called A Cage Went In Search of a Bird or from Wallace Stevens The Halo That Would Not Light or Still Life With Aspirin. Sometimes conflict with a god provokes a poem and the one that really works all that time is just adultery. A pygmy marmoset is the tiniest primate in the world. And this is called. You Have Harnessed Yourself Ridiculously To This World. Tell the truth I told me when I couldn't speak sorrows of barbaric art. Crude as a Viking ship, Or a child who rode a spotted pony to the lake Away from summer in the 1930s toward the iron lung of polio. According to the census I am unmarried and un-churched. The woman in the field dressed only in the sun. Too far gone to halt the Arctic caps catastrophe. Big, beautiful, blubbery white bears. Each clinging to his one last hunk of ice. I am obliged now to refrain from dying for as long as it is possible. For whom left am I first. We have come to terms with ourself like a said getting out of her great ape suit.

JD: Lucy Brock Broido reading You Have Harnessed Yourself Ridiculously To This World at an event in 2013. Ms Brock Broido, a teacher at Harvard and Columbia universities and award-winning poet died last week. She was 61 years old.

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March 12, 2018 episode transcript

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