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The AIH Transcript for March 13, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol off. Good evening.

JEFF DOUGLAS: I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight

CO: Going nowhere fast. Girl Guides of Canada will be needing tour guides of America because the organization has just announced all trips south of the border are suspended due to the travel ban.

JD: The enormous toll on the smallest people, it has been six years since the Civil War began in Syria. UNICEF says more children were killed there last year than ever before.

CO: Rudely interrupted. With both countries facing critical votes, a war of words erupts between Turkey and the Netherlands, and one Turkish government MP add some withering beaux mots of her own.

JD: Retrial separation. Less than three years after Scotland voted against independence, first minister Nicola Sturgeon says her country would rather stay in the EU than stay in the UK. So she's planning another referendum.

CO: A history of violence. As a child in Japan, he found grisly artifacts in the grounds of his school. And now a B.C. man has discovered that his school sat on the site of a horrific Second World War battle. A piece of land near Hacksaw Ridge.

JD: And losing the right of way. Carleton University removes the scale from its gym hoping to change people's focus on weight. But while some people find that’s taking the pressure off, others feel the decision was heavy handed.
As It Happens, the Monday edition, a radio show that wonders if this is too big a move and they'll decide to scale back.

Part 1: Girl Guides, Turkey Netherlands spat, Hacksaw Ridge

Girl Guides

Guest: Heather Odan

JEFF DOUGLAS: A key part of being a Girl Guide is learning to plan for all scenarios. Well today the Girl Guides of Canada announced a brand new scenario concerning the U.S. border. The organization said that no more trips to the U.S. will be approved until further notice. Heather Odan is the guide's interim director of member relations we reached her in Toronto.

CAROL OFF: Ms. Odan, why have you decided to cancel Canadian girl guides trips to the U.S.?

HEATHER ODAN: Well, we've been monitoring the media and hearing of all the changes in the rules around crossing into the U.S., we realized that it was important to evaluate our travel program which does include travel to the US at times. So with the uncertainty and the restrictions in place, we felt that as an inclusive organization, we couldn't guarantee that if we planned a trip to the U.S., that all the girls or the volunteers could get across the border.

CO: And what trips are we talking about here?

HO: They might take day trips across the border. They might take a trip to anywhere in the U.S.. Travel is part of our program offerings in some locations. Some of those might be camps with our partners in the U.S., like GSUSA or any other type of activity.

CO: And does this include travel that transit through the United States?

HO: It does as well. Any time that you have to cross the U.S. border.

CO: What do you fear might happen?

HO: What we fear is that we're going to have a girl who is turned away at the border we might have a volunteer who's turned away at the border and we would have to ask the entire trip to turn back. And we don't want to put any girl in that vulnerable position. It's very different if you are traveling with your family and you know, you all turn around, whereas we're traveling with a group of other girls and we never want that one girl to ever feel like she's not in a safe emotional space. So if we can't guarantee that she can't make it across the border then we really can't put anyone in that situation.

CO: If you were to cross the border and one of the girls was stopped, would you turn everybody back?

HO: We would. And there's a number of… you know more than anything and where this decision came from was our commitment to inclusivity. So we can't just say “Oh you know what, the rest of you go ahead, we'll just go home with this one girl.” So that that is really what drove the decision. On a more practical level, we have a lot of risk management in place around our travel, so that means the ratio of adults to girls, always ensuring that a girl isn't left on her own. So that could also be put in jeopardy if we had one girl turned around. But really it's the commitment to inclusively that drove this decision.

CO: I would imagine also it is not something you want a girl to have to bear. If everyone is turned away from a trip they're looking for her too because she's been stopped.

HO: Absolutely. You know we really have a commitment to a safe space for girls. A big part of that is a safe emotional space. And so to put one girl in the position of making her feel like she has in some way impacted the experience for other girls is just something we would never want them to feel.

CO: But what is it based on? What do you… what's your evidence that this is something that possibly might happen?

HO: What we're basing it on is a lot of uncertainty of Canadians or people who are living in Canada being questioned or turned away at the border or held for hours before they're allowed to cross. So it's not so much about evidence that our own members are being affected, it's more about if we can't guarantee that everyone could get across the border then we're just not willing to put our girls and volunteers in that situation at this time.

CO: So this is anecdotal. Is there any particular stories or incidents that came up when you were discussing what you fear the most about these trips?

HO: No there's no particular incident that we're pointing to. It's sort of the mounting anecdotal evidence as well as there are a number of school boards who have made similar difficult decisions because of the uncertainty.

CO: You know that John Kelly, who is the secretary of U.S. Homeland Security, was in Canada last week. He was asked about this. He said that no one is turned away the U.S. border because of religion or the language they speak or their race. He said that anyone who might be stopped for additional screening would be a rare instance and only because their name appears on the list or there's a problem with their credentials. He insists that this perception that Canadians have, as he calls it, isn't true, isn’t based on anything. What do you say to him?

HO: I would say until we stop hearing about this and we can feel confident in what he says. And you know we will continuously be revaluating this– it's not a decision we came to lightly it's not a decision that anyone wanted to make– so what I’d say to him is until that feeling changes, this is what we feel like we have to do in order to guarantee that people have equitable access to our programs.

CO: So you say you said you wouldn't change it until you get rid of the feeling that this might happen. But to get rid of that feeling, you'd have to see a lot of President Trump’s travel ban and his policies gutted, wouldn’t you?

HO: I really can't comment on specific policies. I think it's more once we know that we can guarantee that access is there for our girls, then we would re-evaluate the situation.

CO: Have you already canceled any trips?

HO: This is more of a future for planning purposes. We've put other risk mitigation strategies in place for ones that are departing soon, but we have changed certain plans. Like we had a trip that was run out of our national office to California and we've had to change that to another country at this point. But we are trying to, if the trips are well underway, we are putting other strategies in place to reduce the risk.

CO: Wait so first of all, this is a camping trip to California has been rerouted, is that right?

HO: Yes correct.

CO: And the trips that you can't cancel because they're well advanced, if there's an incident, what will you do?

HO: Then we’d… the trip would have to be canceled if one girl is turned away, or a volunteer and adult for that matter.

CO: We will leave it there. Ms. Odan, thank you.

HO: Thank you for calling.

JD: Heather Odan is the director of member relations for the Girl Guides of Canada. We reached her in Toronto. Today, that organization announced that it would not approve any trips to the U.S. until further notice. It also changed the location of its national camping trip which was supposed to take place in California this year.

[Music]

Turkey Netherlands spat

Guest: Ravza Kavakçı

JD: A little restraint is what the EU was asking Turkey for today. The appeal came after Turkey's President compared the Dutch government to "Nazi fascists", after it blocked two of his ministers from holding a rally in Rotterdam.
The spat comes at kind of a critical time for both countries. The Dutch national election is just days away, and immigration is a big issue therein. And that Rotterdam rally was part of the Turkish government's effort to convince millions of expats to vote '"Yes" in a referendum that would boost the powers of its President.
Ravza Kavakçıis a Turkish MP. We reached her in Istanbul.

CO: Ms. Kavakçıis, relations are getting more tense between Turkey and the Netherlands. The Dutch government has now warned its citizens against traveling to Turkey. Should Dutch travellers be worried?

RAVZA KAVAKCI: No, definitely not, because as our president and prime minister also stated, there is nothing between the Dutch citizens and our people. But there is a tension between the government.

CO: But Turkish authorities have sealed off the Dutch Embassy and the consulate.

RK: There has been protests, democratic peaceful protests, but there hasn't been any violence. So naturally, Turkish citizens are very concerned with what happened and how the minister was treated and that has caused the tension so our citizens, like they do, in many cases and many European countries, they were protesting this situation.

CO: OK. Just so people understand. Just a quick update here that the Dutch government had barred Turkey's foreign minister from going to Rotterdam to speak to a rally there in Holland. And then what happened is it Turkey’s Family Minister, Family Affairs Minister was detained and prevented from speaking in Rotterdam. Why was it necessary? What was the significance of those ministers wanting to speak in Holland?

RK: We have upcoming referendum on the constitutional change in Turkey that's going to come up on the 16th of April. And that is why our ministers wanted to speak, meet with the Turkish-Dutch citizens who will be able to vote in those elections, and we see this as a part of democratic rights, as a part of freedom of speech, and freedom of gathering, freedom of expression. But unfortunately what drove things to this point, to dissent’s point was that Madam Minister of Family and Social Policies Dr. Fatma Betül Sayan was literally kept from entering the Turkish Embassy. Physically she was taken out and this is very difficult to understand from a diplomatic point of view. She has diplomatic immunity and she wasn't allowed to go into her own consulate. The Netherlands is a very strong ally of Turkey, has been for a long time, and they do have upcoming elections as well. So things are tense there as well. This is understandable.

CO: OK now you just pointed out. This is a very, this is the significance isn't it? There is an election coming up in Holland as well, a very tense one. Where there is the leader of the Freedom Party, Geert Wilders, is campaigning on a very anti-Muslim ticket. Ban the Koran, kick Muslims out of the country. Very significant development. What they're asking to happen here, and the E.U. is saying this as well, is the rhetoric to cool down. Don't you think that your ministers arriving to speak to a rally in Rotterdam is a provocation at this particular time? That's the suggestion here.

RK: I do not want to accept this because that would be a very Orientalist way, as if saying someone who got attacked deserved it. No other people the people who are against this referendum change, very respectable politicians in Turkey but whose support of no vote are able to go in the Netherlands like Abdullatif Şener and members of the CHP, our main opposition party, are able to go and speak in the Netherlands. Only the people who are pro the yes vote, and they happen to be ministers, weren't allowed. So this is something that has been the main cause of dissent, tension.
I don't think it's a good line of thinking to say that the right to speak, the right to express an opinion a political opinion and any other opinion in a country which is one of the founders of the European Union, I don't think that's the right way of looking at things.

CO: OK but just that you're saying this is an issue of free speech. Can I just pointed out that Turkey is regarded as having one of the worst records for media freedom right now. Reporters Without Borders has ranked you almost at the bottom of all countries. You’re down there with the Democratic Republic of Congo. You have journalists who are facing unprecedented legal obstacles. That’s a quote from Freedom House. The Committee to Protect Journalists has ranked Turkey as one of the worst jailers of journalists. You’re even ahead of Iran and China. Aren't you on thin ice when you talk about free speech in Holland when you have such a record in your own country?

RK: If I could reply with a question. Is it all right for journalists to support terrorism? That's the question. Would it be a part of free speech if someone, a journalist, was to say “I support Daesh,” what they do to people?

CO: Is that what you're saying? That the journalists, the journalists you have in jail by the dozens, they are in jail because you are accused of terrorism?

RK: The journalists who are in jail are not in jail because of journalism activities. Journalists are not above the law. No profession is about the law in any country.

CO: But you know that European Union is very worried about your record. You have jailed opposition politicians, you have jailed journalists. And you're saying that they're all because they're terrorists, well what organizations, a lot of people, agencies, would beg to differ with you. I'm just pointing out that this seems to be something of two sides.

RK: I understand. Actually I'm right now concerned about the European Union myself as well. Increasing Islamophobia is increasing xenophobia. I think there is... We have a general problem all over the world. So it's not just just Europe, it's all over the world. So some of the reports that are coming up don't have foundations and some of them, all international organizations are, in my mind more than welcome to come, see the situation in Turkey, and investigate.

CO: You know that Geert Wilders, his Freedom Party, he says that he's using free speech when he talks about what he'd like to do to Muslims and their Korans and their mosques. So would you believe that he is exercising his free speech rights?

RK: If you are if you believe that arguing that we should kill people or exonerate people, or if you believe that that is part of the free speech, that would be another issue.

CO: Just finally do you agree with your president, President Erdoğan, that the Dutch government is exhibiting fascism?

RK: Well I believe that there is definitely not an objective and friendly situation.

CO: There’s a big difference between being objective and friendly, and being fascist so would you go as far as your president has?

RK: I support what my president said. I think there's a lot of Orientalism, xenophobia and fascism all over the world that we need to get rid of and I strongly believe that there's lots of good in mankind and that will prevail.

CO: Thank you very much for speaking with us.

RK: Sure. Thank you. Bye-bye.

JD: Ravza Kavakçı is a Turkish government MP. We reached her in Istanbul.

[Music]

Hacksaw Ridge

Guest: Gary Bennett

JD: When Gary Bennett was a kid going to school in Japan, he and his buddies used to scavenge the school yard for bones. And at the time, Mr. Bennett, who now lives in Victoria, British Columbia, didn't think too much about it. But recently he started doing some Googling about Okinawa Christian school, where he studied as a young boy and the land where it stood, and he stumbled on what is a pretty big discovery.
American actor and director Mel Gibson just made a movie that takes place on that same land. That movie is called Hacksaw Ridge. It is about one of the bloodiest battles of World War II fought on the island of Okinawa. We reached Gary Bennett in Victoria.

CO: Gary, what's led you to believe that these bones you were digging up when you were a young boy in Japan might be the remains of soldiers who were killed in World War 2?

GARY BENNETT: Well you know, I was I was pretty young at the time. I went to school on Hacksaw Ridge from Grade 1 through Grade 4. And we knew that this had been a battlefield and there were indeed more than just bones. They were actually pieces of uniforms even we'd find every once in a while, a chunk of a helmet or a machine gun part or bullet casings, and not too far beneath the surface of the playground, or in the surrounding brush around our playground.

CO: And what did people say? What did the teachers or anyone at the school say when you found these things?

GB: Well they certainly warned us you know of the danger of you know some of that equipment and we were told not to pick it up. And indeed, there was one occasion where one of the students at the school found a grenade. And so then they called the military police from one of the U.S. military bases and they came and they found that the grenade was indeed a live grenade. And so then they did a search of all of the surrounding grounds. Once again through the brush, and they found another one. And this is about 15, 17 years you know after the war had ended.

CO: So it wasn't that long afterwards. There would be would be memories of what happened in Okinawa.

GB: That's right.

CO: Why were you there as a boy in Okinawa?

GB: My parents were missionaries. They actually went to the main part of Japan first. I was born in Tokyo. When I was five years old, they were transferred to Okinawa.

CO: What did you know about this battle? Because this is extraordinary, the battle of Okinawa which was made into this movie Hacksaw Ridge. What can you tell us about it?

GB: You know at the time I didn't really delve into it too much in terms of the historical nature of it. But in recent year, I've certainly read up on it. I figure it's part of my life now. And you know, it was one of the bloodiest battles of World War 2. I think it was one of the last ground battles. A horrific loss of life on both sides, both the allied forces and the Japanese army. And I believe it was, it provided the impetus for Harry Truman to actually give the order to drop the atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. There was this realization that they could not sustain this kind of loss on an ongoing basis, that they had to put an end to this war.

CO: That was the idea that, what was being talked about at the time, that the, dropping that bomb was actually a humane thing to do. That's what often people cited.

GB: I think that was their rationale. And Okinawa, you know it's about, they’re really tropical islands. They're about I think about five hundred kilometers south of the main islands of Japan. And the allied forces were looking for a base from which they could, you know do their, their bombing missions from that location. And so it was a very strategic location. Since then, they've maintained that as a strategic base. At the time I lived there it was under actually under U.S. control.

CO: Do you have any idea how many soldiers died in that battle in Okinawa?

GB: I think there were about I think over 80,000 in terms of loss of life. The ground battle was really fought by the U.S. soldiers and they lost about 15,000 and about I think about 75,000 Japanese. But then all of that the Okinawans civilians. There was horrific, horrific loss. Aver 100,000 Okinawans.

CO: It must have been just haunting to be there. I mean even, even if you didn't know as a boy what had happened there. As you're finding the remains of people, of uniforms, the place must have just been so filled with well the ghosts of those who had died.

GB: You know as a boy I remember thinking this is weird and this is spooky. But honestly I didn't really draw the full impact of it until I saw that movie.

CO: Hacksaw Ridge.

GB: I thought you know, Hacksaw Ridge, I thought this, like Hollywood, you know always exaggerates things, and I think even the ridge itself, you know as I recall it, it was more of a… it was a ridge, not a cliff. And in the movie it's this cliff. And as I remember it, it was more of a slope. And I remember as a you know, eight nine year old boy and leaning at the edge of the ridge, leaning against the ocean winds that would blow up the ridge, you know with my arms outstretched, but I'd never felt in any danger and there was no fence along the edge of the ridge. So there are certainly things you know in the movie that were exaggerated. But I have to say that you know, as gory as it was, I would have to say that that was no exaggeration.

CO: Had you thought about it, had this come back to your mind before you saw Hacksaw Ridge?

GB: Actually it did. You know, I kind of did the thing that you know, from that movie Lion. I started Googling and just seeing if I could find my way back to Hacksaw Ridge. Just think, I wonder if I can get some pictures from Google Earth or something of that location. And that's when I saw the notification on Google that a movie was being made about it. Immediately I thought, is that the same Hacksaw Ridge? Because Hacksaw Ridge is not really that large of a place. And indeed it was.
We went to school in these corrugated metal Quonset huts and while we were there they built a new school on Hacksaw Ridge, you know concrete and steel building. And when they were digging for the foundations, they just uncovered a lot of skeletal remains.
You know I look back on it now it seems really odd that that wasn't all cleaned up. But the only way I can explain it is that there was so much bloodshed and so much destruction, they just left it there and covered it over.

CO: If this is now drawing you back, if you were already thinking of the film Lion, wanting to return to that and understand it, any plans to go back to Okinawa?

GB: I certainly would. I left Japan when I was 18 years old, when I graduated from high school. You know it was home. I've never been back to Okinawa and there certainly is a yearning there and I'd like to take my family with me and retrace some of the steps with my childhood.

CO: Gary, this is an absolutely haunting story and I appreciate you telling that to us.

GB: Well thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

GB: Bye.

JD: Gary Bennett is a former student at Okinawa Christian School formerly located on Hacksaw Ridge in Japan. We reached Mr. Bennett in Victoria B.C. where he currently lives. And we have posted more on that story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

Carlton scales

JD: You want to know whether you gain or lost a few pounds or kilograms? Well, at the moment Carleton University says “No way”. Almost two weeks ago the scale was removed from the gym at Carleton, not because it was taking up too much space in there but because officials believe it was taking up too much mental and emotional space in people.
Bruce Marshall, Manager of Wellness Programs at Carleton has made it clear that his department given a lot of thought to the scale of the problem. He said in an email to CBC News “Although it can be used as a tool to help measure certain aspects of fitness, it does not provide a good overall indication of health. And we have chosen to move away from focusing solely on body weight.”
While responses to that move vary, as you can imagine lots of people are taking the opportunity to complain about oversensitivity, and to make fun of the very idea of triggering and to use the term “snowflakes” in a non-meteorological and pejorative sense.
Now others believe that removing the scale is a good idea because body weight is not, in fact, a useful measure of health, and because focusing on it can lead to or exacerbate eating disorders. And some just saying the school, maybe they should have just consulted with people before unilaterally yanking the scale. However Mr. Marshall says the decision is not necessarily final. But he said it in kind of a curious way. In that same email to the CBC, he wrote “We will weigh the pros and cons and may reconsider our decision.”

Part 2: Syria UNICEF, Scotland MP

Syria UNICEF

Guest: Juliette Touma

JEFF DOUGLAS: They were already known as Syria's lost generation, and a new report now from UNICEF says that 2016 was the worst year for the children of Syria since the beginning of that civil war in 2011. The UN agency says grave violations against children were at their highest recorded levels. That includes the killing of at least 652 kids in 2016. But because that reflects only verified deaths, the agency says the real number is likely much higher. Juliette Touma is with the Middle East and North Africa section of UNICEF. We reached her in Aleppo.

CAROL OFF: Ms. Touma, you are in Aleppo, a city we have had such horrible stories from for so many years now, and you're looking at the plight of children. What can you tell us about how children are living in Aleppo?

JULIETTE TOUMA: Well I can tell you that the level of destruction and devastation that I saw today was truly, truly horrendous. This city is almost completely wiped out. Every single building has bullet holes in it or is completely gone, really. I mean, you're walking in a ghost town of a city that has been flattened as a result of all the violence. It's really shocking. You know, I remember walking through the Old City and just thinking to myself, what happened to those people who were there during that intense violence only came to an end just a few weeks ago. So it's just a mind boggling situation altogether.

CO: Can you imagine or maybe through the interviews you've done or you found out in your research, what is it like for a child living in that city?

JT: The children of Syria overall have seen things that no one should see. Schools and hospitals are packed. Sexual harassment, denial of humanitarian access, child recruitment increasing. And that is quite a concern because you see more and more children joining the fighting rather than being at school where they should be really. It can't get worse.
Something needs to happen so that this war can come to an end, for all the guns to be put down once and for all for the sake of the children of Syria.

CO: In this UNICEF report, it's not just that, I mean war is horrible for children, but what you're describing is this how compounded the problems are for children there, and I want to ask you about some specific areas. You mentioned sexual abuse, in particular of girls. What is the situation for girls in Syria?

JT: I mean we see over the course of the years that more and more girls for example get married at an earlier age. And that is a direct result of coping mechanism of families that are eroding. Inability of families to really cater to the needs of their children. So girls marry early. But we also know there have been cases of sexual abuse, by parties to the conflict and that is absolutely horrible. We have reached the point of no return really in this conflict and the question then becomes how do reconcile them? How do you really fix back together the social fabric in this country that has been torn apart. I mean the infrastructure is almost completely gone. But the bigger question is, what do you do to have people live together again and move on and rebuild their beautiful country? You know, it is one of the most beautiful countries in this region, and then have lots of history and culture.
And meanwhile, amid all this destruction and all the horror that the war, you see for example we were driving this morning from Homs going to Aleppo and it was just before 8:00 a.m. We saw these children carrying school bags, very determined to get to school. And this was really in the middle of the rubble, amid the destroyed buildings, just trying to make their way to school. And that is amazing I think. And that is where you know UNICEF has been working so hard to make sure the kids go back to school. And this is exactly what we need to keep doing so to be able to support these children, support families. Because that is the hope for the future, and without education, we're not able to leave this country.

CO: The descriptions of the sort of the lives of children, even who are not in on the front lines or in the middle of the war zones, that they have are not only, so many of them not attending school, but they are working. They're now being, they're having to bring in an income for their families, they're alone. They have lost family members. What is the situation in general for children, say moving away from the actual cities like Homs and Aleppo.

JT: I mean inside Syria, we talk about six million children will need assistance. And outside Syria, there’s about 2.5 million refugees who need assistance. So about 80 percent of Syria's children need humanitarian assistance.

CO: In this UNICEF report, it's just so much devastating information. But perhaps one of the most disturbing parts is the news that children sometimes as young as seven are being forcibly recruited into the war by al Qaeda and groups like ISIS. What are these children being required to do?

JT: All to support to the fighting parties. So they are now, the was has moved on to really exploiting these children right at the front line. They’re manning checkpoints, they’re carrying guns. They are actively participating in the fighting. They're being used as prison guards, and they are, in extreme cases, being executioners or suicide bombers. And so that is quite shocking because what it means is that children are growing up ahead of their time and that is something that is absolutely illegal and that is against international humanitarian law. And so parties to the conflict are really robbing children of their childhood by recruiting them to the fighting.

CO: Ms. Tourna, I will leave it there. It's a very disturbing report and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

JT: Thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Carol.

JD: Juliette Touma is with the Middle East and North Africa section of UNICEF. We reached her in Aleppo.

[Music]

Newfoundland storm

JD: It was pretty crazy across Newfoundland this weekend. There was havoc caused by hurricane-like conditions. I don't know, ‘hurricane like’? Sounds like hurricanes to me. Winds up to 150 kilometers per hour. In any case, today things are slowly getting back to normal on the island. But there are still 5000 Newfoundland Power customers without electricity and some of them are going to have to wait until tomorrow before they get it back.
In St. John's, Saturday was particularly bad. And still our CBC radio colleagues down there put on a special call-in program in the midst of it all. And during that program, host Anthony Germain took a call from St. John's resident Allan Hawco, the Canadian actor-producer of course, who is famous for Republic of Doyle. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

ALLAN HAWCO: So the winds are so strong, I was driving along for a drive. I didn't really realize how bad it was.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Right.

AH: I saw this woman in a red coat running towards me in the middle of ongoing traffic. You know, cars were coming and going everywhere. And I just managed to speed up in enough time that I missed her. But she came up solid on the back of my vehicle.

AG: Oh no.

AH: So I got out of the car immediately, and the wind had taken her, carried her across the street into the oncoming traffic.

AG: You know what’s amazing is I was actually coming out of that Winners and I saw those women by the stop sign fall and one of them slid, and I think I'm pretty sure Allan, strange coincidence, I'm pretty sure the same woman.

AH: Red coat?

AG: Yes.

AH: Her sister, her mother, and her daughter. And she had just handed her daughter to her sister.

AG: It's exactly what I saw and then I was telling my wife. And we were afraid for ourselves, I said “They're in trouble.”

AH: I don't think people realized exactly how dangerous it was. This woman was carried.

AG: Now from my vantage point, I was coming out of the exit there and I almost needed somebody like you to help me open the door. It was impossible to open because the strength of the wind. I saw them standing there. I saw the third person just vanish around the corner of the building so I never, I could never see the vantage point of how close she came. I just assumed she stopped there but she must have gone right across the road.

AH: There was another car coming in the opposite direction that, God knows what could have happened if she wasn't stopped by my car. And you know, when I spoke to her earlier, she couldn't really even fathom the thought of her still holding her child. And I thought first maybe she was chasing something, like her dog or a child or something.

AG: No, she was almost like human debris being blown about right?

AH: Yeah and you know I got out of the car, and I put her in my car, and I didn't know where she was. I was going to take her to the hospital. But her mother was in the parking light waiting. So I drove her around, got her back in. And then I was helping her get into her car. If I hadn't grabbed hold of her belt, she would have taken off again, and she was limping now of course because she was injured.

AG: She was hurt, yeah.

AH: For anyone out there, don't play with it. Like just I immediately took the safest, slowest way home.

JD: St. John's, Newfoundland resident Allan Hawco – the Canadian actor-producer of Republic of Doyle fame, speaking with CBC Radio host Anthony Germain on Saturday, as winds gusting up to 180 kilometres per hour whipped through St. John’s.

Scotland MP

Guest: Ross Greer

JD: Should it stay or should it go. Well in the case of Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants the country to do both. Both stay in the European Union, and go, from the UK. Today Ms. Sturgeon said that in light of the pro-Brexit vote, her country should hold another independence referendum. Ross Greer is a pro-independence Member of the Scottish Parliament with the Green Party. We reached Mr. Greer in Glasgow.

CO: Mr. Greer, as you know, in 2014, the people of Scotland voted clearly against independence. Why do you think it's fair to redo this referendum so soon after you lost?

ROSS GREER: In 2014, just over half of the people in Scotland voted to stay in the UK because they were told that the UK was the only way to stay in the European Union. They were told, if you vote “yes”, you will lose your EU membership, and the opposite turned out to be the case.
Two years later, we had a referendum on the UK’s EU membership, and almost two in three people in Scotland voted for the UK to stay in the EU. But the UK as a whole voted to leave. So we face a position where, not only in election after the election do the people of Scotland get governments we didn't vote for, but now we face this fundamental huge change in our lives. We lose our rights as European citizens. We lose our rights to the European single market. Huge economic damage and all because of something that we didn't vote for. So the situation has changed entirely from 2014.

CO: But what makes you think that if you were to separate from as Britain makes it’s Brexit, what makes you think that you'll be able to stay in the European Union?

RG: We have been amazed by the good will that Scotland has had from across Europe. We've got Guy Verhofstadt, he’s the European Parliament’s lead negotiator for Brexit. He’s a former prime minister of Belgium. He has gone out of his way to talk about how Europe cannot afford to lose Scotland. How an independent Scotland would be made welcome, how transition would be smooth as possible. We've seen senior politicians from the left to the right, liberal, centrist, greens, all talk about how Scotland would be welcome, how transitional arrangements would be made.

CO: But what makes you think that that goodwill will actually translate into reality? I mean, they’re a hard line when it comes to who gets to be part of the European Union and won’t people in Scotland want to know for a fact that they will be able to stay in the European Union before they would actually go and vote for independence?

RG: There'll be two options on the ballot paper in the next independence referendum. One will be the colossal uncertainty of hard Brexit. But without any control whatsoever. The other option, putting out own future in our own hands, sticking with our European family, that provides a greater level of certainty for the people of Scotland. And when you've got senior European politicians, the man the European Parliament has put in charge of the Brexit process, seeing an independent Scotland would be welcome. Then we can be as certain as possible that Scotland would be welcome in Europe.

CO: But you mentioned about the hard exit. I mean do we… don't you want to know, won't Scots want to know, what kind of an exit Britain is going to take? If there is a soft Brexit, they might allow for Scots to have their cake and eat it too.

RG: We know very little about what the UK Government's plan for Brexit is, because the reality is quite clear. They don't have anything approaching planned. But the one thing that we do know is, they have already ruled out soft Brexit. Theresa May, the Prime Minister, has been fairly clear that the UK will lose the single market, the European single market, and that means losing freedom of movement for people, for goods, for capital, for services. Huge economic and social damage. So, the UK government, the government we didn't for, have already ruled out an option that would lessen the damage to Scotland. There would still be damage, but it would have dampened it a little bit.
Instead they have chosen the most damaging option possible because they're driven by an ideology of isolation an anti-immigration ideology. They're terrified of that right wing within their own conservative party. They're terrified of UKIP, the party further to the right than them. So, we already have a pretty good idea here that the UK government are going to adopt a very damaging form of Brexit.
But the proposal was to have a referendum by autumn 2010, spring 2019. By that point, we will have a pretty good idea of what the breaks do actually is, because you'll be heading towards the end of your two year period.

CO: But if your dire prediction and all the extremism that you've decided that's in the background of this, if none of that comes to pass, then it's quite possible that Scots will see that, well, we can stay with. and we won’t have to go through this difficult, painful process of separating and we'll be able to have what we've got for the most part in the European Union.

RG: Even the least damaging way for the UK to leave the European Union is still damaging. We had work commissioned by the Scottish Parliament on a cross-party basis by an independent think tank, they showed a range of 35,000 to 80,000 jobs being lost, a drop in the average wage of between 800 pounds and 2000 pounds. So even the least damaging option is going to cause damage and what we are proposing is a different path for Scotland. The UK is isolating itself. It's turning inward, it’s turning away from its European family as tilting back towards the United States at just about the worst moment possible to do that. And we are saying that Scotland wants a different future, a progressive, internationalist, independent future.

CO: The UK Prime Minister, Theresa May as you know, she says she claims that Scots don't want another referendum. It's the government in London would have to give its permission for you to have this referendum and the polls show that the electorate in Scotland is split 50/50 on independence. So what's your evidence that there is even an appetite or that you’ll even get the permission to run a new vote.

RG: When polling shows a 50/50 split between those for and against independence, it's quite clear that the debate has to be had.
If the UK government tries to stop it short of that. If they try and deny us the right to self-determination, that would be completely unacceptable. That would be a constitutional crisis. And from what we've seen in the rest of Europe, that would erode any good will that is left for the UK and the other EU 27 countries, so it would do them a lot of damage in negotiations.
They would be democratically outrageous. A majority of the Scottish Parliament were elected from pro-independence parties, parties in favor of holding another referendum if the circumstances brought about. Since the EU referendum, we have seen a growing demand for there to be another referendum. Around half the country either wanting another referendum as soon as possible, or roughly two years from now which is exactly what's being proposed.

CO: All right, we'll be watching. Mr. Greer, thank you.

RG: Thank you very much.

JDL Ross Greer is a member of the Scottish Parliament with the Green Party. We reached him in Glasgow.

[Music]

Joni Sledge obituary

JD: Sister Sledge were, as their biggest head explained, family, they were four sisters. Debbie, Joany, Kim and Cathy, Joni was the second oldest, and she never really ever got out of music. She performed as part of Sister Sledge until last year. Joni Sledge died on Friday. She was six years old.
That she and her siblings would actually get into show business was really never in question. Their dad was a tap dancer, their mom was an actor, their grandmother had been an opera singer. And after she taught them everything she knew, Sister Sledge began touring and recording in the early 70s. And they did OK. They had a minor hit in the U.S. and a major hit in Japan. But by the late 70s, they were playing in Atlantic City. And as Joni once said they were playing “from 4:00 in the afternoon to 4:00 in the morning, six sets, opening for everybody that came through” and they weren't really going anywhere. Not in any sense.
And then they met Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards from the band Chic. As the story goes, the two disco Giants were shopping around their services as songwriters and then they all met with the head of Atlantic Records, who told them all about Sister Sledge. They took notes and according to Nile Rodgers, they turned those notes, almost verbatim, into the lyrics of “We Are Family.”
And Joni Sledge said that that recording, or recording that song, was “A one take party. We were just dancing and playing around and hanging out in the studio when we did it.” And that is what made a song with such specific lyrics so universal.

Part 3: Richard Wagamese obit, Goya etching

Montreal Driving While Black

JEFF DOUGLAS: A Montreal civil rights organization is calling it "one of the most egregious cases of racial profiling we've seen."Here's the story, according to Kenrick McRae:
On Friday evening, Mr. McRae was pulled over by Montreal police in his Mercedes. He was told the lights around his license plate were out. But he insists that they were not.
Mr. McRae is black. He says he's been stopped in his Mercedes by Montreal cops enough times now that he keeps a camera in his car, to record all his interactions with police. And this time, when officers realized he was filming his license plate lights, Mr. McRae says he was arrested and detained in the back of the squad car, while everything was wiped from the camera. Then, he was released without charge.
Here is Kenrick McRae speaking to CBC's Mike Finnerty this morning:

SOUNDCLIP

KENRICK MCRAE: You know, I've been stopped so many times but on Friday night, it went to the extreme. It went to the extreme.

MIKE FINNERTY: Are you still driving the car?

KM: Seriously, since the incident, I parked the car. Because you know, I still you know feel traumatized of what happened, you know.

MF: Do you feel safe driving that car now?

KM: I don't, I don't think so because, there is a way you know, why should I be going into my car with a camera? Why should I be looking out for police instead of looking for pedestrians and traffic? You know, I don't feel safe. You know, since I'm driving the car you know, with these incidents, I have a delay tactic now with the police.
Once I see police in front, I would slow down [unintelligible] pass. If I see them coming behind me, I would divert just to avoid, you know avoid these incidents. I believe that the police are supposed to protect and serve. But in my in my situation, you know, they always stop looking at me you know, like I just commit a crime. Intimidation. That's all I see.

MF: What would you like to see happen? What would give you a sense that it's all worth it to take these complaints forward?

KM: You know what, basically what I saw on TV and what I read you know. At the end of the day, they always come down to the conclusion of training. We just hear training training training training, all the time and nothing happens. So I don't, I don't know what really to say.

JD: That was Kenrick McRae speaking to CBC's Mike Finnerty earlier today. Mr. McRae says he plans to file a complaint with the Quebec Human Rights Commission and the police ethics commissioner.
The Montreal police provided a statement to the CBC saying that, "from what we have gathered at this point, the versions of the citizen and police reports do not concur." They also say that since no charges were laid, no further investigation will be made related to the incident.

Richard Wagamese obituary

JD: When he was twenty-two man, an elder told Richard Wagamese he had the gift of storytelling. And over more than thirty years as an author of novels, a writer of poetry, and a journalist, he shared that gift with readers across the country.
Richard Wagamese died last week. He was 61 years old.
Mr. Wagamese talked openly about his struggles with PTSD and alcoholism, and his efforts to reconnect with his children later in his life. And the father-son reconciliation was the subject of his most recent novel, Medicine Walk.
After that book was publshed in 2014, Richard Wagamese went to the CBC studio in Kamloops, British Columbia for a feature interview with Carol here on As It Happens. Here is part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: This story is just briefly. It's a journey between a father and a son. The father, Eldon wants to die on the land, and his son Franklin Starlight reluctantly agrees to take him there. Why did you write this story?

RICHARD WAGAMESE: Well it kind of tugged at me for a while and I also got to spend some time in Aboriginal communities as I’m want to do as I travel and the conversations inevitably lead for a number of months to the prevalence of absent fathers in the lives of our children and especially in the lives of our sons. And the notion of the story was just kind of born in that. And also it's because it's part of my own particular history. I have two sons whom I haven't been part of their lives on a consistent basis too. So I thought I wanted to maybe unravel a little bit of that and allow my sons and inkling into the whys that I wasn't present. And when I started it, I'd thought that I would have a degree of detachment from that particular history. But as I wrote, I realized that I was I was writing to my boys and I was writing to myself.

CO: And this, your character in Medicine Walk, Franklin Starlight. I actually kept wanting to go off in a truck with him myself to learn what he knows of the land and have the ability to find food and create these feasts along the way to keep them sustained. And so, what is it that that Franklin Starlight represents then.

RW: Well he represents the whole reclamation process. We're talking about people who are finding their way out from the rubble of residential schools in the 60s scoop and all of the things that have troubled and perplexed and bothered our people for generations now. There's a younger generation that's coming out of that’s stronger because of the dark and twisted history. And they’re being able to reclaim themselves and their identity through a retouching and a reclaiming of their roots that sink deep into the land of Canada. But I think it's a deeper issue. I think it's us as a people. Us as Aboriginal peoples, reaching out to our Canadian neighbors with the truth of our story, of our journey here and trying to create a sense of political and spiritual and community unity across the country so that we can all work together not only for the betterment of Canada itself but betterment of the environment and the betterment of the planet.

CO: You mentioned that about this conversation, this dialogue between First Nations and Canada, and that is what many hoped that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be able to produce. That it would be not just the testimonies that were so difficult to listen to in so many cases, so painful, those recollections, that they would actually go to some place in the Canadian psyche. Do you think that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful?

RW: I think that any time you offer somebody the opportunity to tell the story of how something has affected them, and you gather a number of those stories and allow people who are have some degree of detachment from that process to hear them, then what happens is that you actually allow people the grace of hearing the entire history of their country. And I think that in terms of Canada, after 140 some years of Confederation, it's time that we all heard the whole story of the development of the country.
And I know that in my own sense, that until I could look at my own personal history and its wholeness and its entirety, and embrace even the dark and bruised places, up until that point I wasn't capable of healing and recovering myself. But I'm able to nowadays because I embrace the whole story and I think that what we're asking Canadians to do is not to own any guilt or own any shame for what the mechanics of history has allowed to happen here but to be able to say yes to the story rather than obfuscate and cloud it behind history as it's written. And I think that when we can do that, we get a greater idea of where our country has been. And we also get a greater idea collectively of where we're able to go.

CO: Your novel Medicine Walk is also in its own way, a truth and reconciliation encounter between a father and a son who are in this walk. But Franklin, the son, what’s so striking is he has no sympathy for his father. He is so angry with his father. He believes he was abandoned by him, that his father was destroyed by alcohol and didn't resist in a way that the young man feels he has the strength to resist. What does this conversation represent?

RW: I believe it represents a universality of that that whole issue. I think that nowadays we're seeing a generation and indeed probably the generation before it that grow up with absent fathers being a really really outstanding element of that generation and I think that there are a lot of people, not just Aboriginal people,e who have issues with the fact that their fathers weren't present in their lives. And even if they were physically there, maybe they weren't there spiritually or emotionally. And I think the universality of that is really really an important part of the novel and a part of I think a whole lot of people's growing up process.
What the novel asks people to consider is whether the reclamation of a personal history is either a triumph or a sorrow or both. And in discovering that answer for ourselves as individuals, we discover that sense of our own personal history, a really really valid and necessary one.

CO: And how does the story of Eldon and Franklin, how does it resonate with your own experiences as a father?

RW: Well, because of my post-traumatic stress disorder that I carried for years, it manifested itself primarily in alcoholism. And my alcoholism was the reason that their mothers chose to separate me from my sons and until I could find a ways and means to get in touch with my own personal history, find a device that would allow me to generate my own healing, I wasn't able to be a productive part of the lives of my sons. Fortunately these days I did find that device, and I have been through years of therapy and I've been able to recreate the original relationship. And my sons, one of whom is 18, and the other who's 34, all have a father that they can talk to, and they have a father that they can write to. And that journey toward that has been difficult and long but it had to come from my own personal healing. I had to take the first steps to bringing myself more into the light so I could be something that shone for them as a parent.

CO: Richard, I know you have written and talked about the PTSD you suffered, and that you have that you talk about yourself as a victim of the residential school system, but you didn't attend a residential school. Can you tell us a bit about how the legacy of that system affected your generation and you?

RW: Well, even though I didn't attend a residential school when I was born, my entire extended family had been victims of those institutions. And they sought to reclaim themselves by being as close to the land as they could and to try and live a traditional lifestyle. The nature of their experience, their common experience in residential schools, really robbed them of their tribal and cultural ability to be nurturing and to be loving parents. And they had suffered the scrapes and woundings of their souls and their spirits that was not readily healable. And when we were born as children, we were subjected to the neglect and the pain that that generation had suffered and so intergenerationally, residential schools infiltrated my generation in my family. And that's true across the country, that the generations who were in residential schools pass on that trauma and pass on that pain to the next generation coming after them, so it's an intergenerational impact of Residential Schools that’s nowadays as much or a greater part of the story that we all need to hear.

CO: Is there an end to this? I mean because residential schools is just one episode, one chapter in decades of efforts to destroy the culture and to break the bond between First Nations and their culture. Where does it end? How many generations before you can be healed from something like that?

RW: Well we have to close the circle individually. If we know that we bear pain and trauma, we have to be willing to address all of it. We have to be willing to go to therapy, we have to be brave enough to confront our demons. We have to be brave enough to be honest and say yes, because of that this is what I did. If we can do that as individuals, we can do that as communities. If we can do that as communities, we can do that as nations. If we do that as nations, we can do that as a society. And I think more importantly the big upshot of that whole thing is that if we can do that on that scale, we can do that as a human species.

CO: What a hopeful and extraordinary thought that is.

RW: Yeah. I think it's the only way to really look at it. I mean it's the only way that I find any comfort. I've been a journalist for 35 years. I've written about virtually every First Nations and Aboriginal issue in the country not once, not twice, not four times, but many many many times. And it would have been easy to become jaded. But because of the rich and vibrant ceremonial and spiritual life that still exists in our communities, there's a way to see the light in the darkness and to keep on working towards that. And that philosophy, that view is the way that you march toward it.

CO: I know you are healing once again. You were unwell during this past winter, you were in hospital. How are you now?

RW: I'm good. I had a really really bad infection called cellulitis, and the doctors in the beginning were extremely afraid that I would lose my right hand. And I underwent about three and a half months of wound dressing at nurse’s station in downtown Kamloops and they tended me really well until the hand healed and it's healed now completely and I'm getting back a full range of motion in my tendons because the infection affected part of the mechanics of the hand and it's coming back fully. So I'm well, thank you.

CO: And where does the larger healing come from?

RW: It comes from opening my eyes every morning and taking a big deep breath and breathing the whole sense of magnificence that’s this universe, and this world, and this country, into my being and realizing that I'm a part of it, and it's a part of me. And I get up and I do my very best in the course of each day to reflect that harmony and that unity.

CO: Richard Wagamese, you are an inspiration.

RW: Thank you and so are you.

CO: And I thank you so much for this extraordinary novel, Medicine Walk. Thank you.

RW: Thank you, Carol. Bye-bye.

JD: From our archives, that was Carol in conversation with Richard Wagamese in 2014, after the publication of his novel Medicine Walk. Richard Wagamese, award-winning Ojibway author, newspaper columnist, poet, and author and writer, died last week at age sixty-one. The cause of his death has not been released.

[Music]

Goya etchings

Guest: Séverine Nackers

JD: Usually, when you open up a ledger, you would expect to find a collection of financial accounts. Even if that ledger is more than 150 years old. I mean, typically you keep your important book-keeping in a ledger. You don’t keep your important art.
But recently, the owners of a chateau in northern France found a nondescript 19th-century ledger at the back of one of their bookshelves. Inside, they may or may not have found a bunch of numbers. But they definitely found a complete set of bullfighting etchings by the great Spanish artist, Francisco de Goya.
Those etchings are going to be sold by Sotheby's next month. They're valued at more than 900,000 dollars, Canadian.
Séverine Nackers is the Head of Prints for Sotheby's Europe. We reached her in London.

CO: Ms. Nackers, just how important is the discovery of these Goya etchings?

SEVERINE NACKERS: It’s quite an interesting discovery for a number of reasons. First of all, the very fine quality of the impression and the fact that it comes from a distinguish and uninterrupted provenance, is of course the object of volume in which it was found, the pristine condition of these series of etchings. There is a rarity of the Tauromaquia. And of course the subject matter that you add to all of these, there is the story of how it came for sale.

CO: Just before we get to the whole story. Just tell us what they look like.

SN: Well it's the history of bullfighting. So, the theory begins with the illustration of the origin of bullfighting and with some celebrated toreros of Goya’s own time. You also have like a number of patterns. You know, when you start the series you can get a number of patterns and then you go into the tauromaquia becoming more of a noble activity.

CO: And the thing that's interesting. I have a very bad reproduction of them from online, but you can still see how much energy is in them. These are action shots, aren't they?

SN: Absolutely. So much movement. And because I really excelled in the technique of what we call aquatint. It really adds a dimension to them. And this can really be appreciated only in the early impressions such as this one.

CO: How did these print's ended up end up in this chateau in France?

SN: Well the original owner of the set was someone called Anne-Adrien-Pierre de Montmorency-Laval. He was the French ambassador to the court of Madrid from 1814 to 1823. And in 1816, so the year that the Toromaquia was published, he was given the title of Duke de San Fernando Luis by the king, Ferdinand VII of Spain. So one can wonder whether the new duke may have purchased this fine and early sets of the bull fights or he received it as a gift from the crown.

CO: So Goya was selling prints like these? This was something that he would have done?

SN: Yeah I mean they were sold individually or sometimes as a complete set. We can trace it back to Goya’s time. We don't know whether actually the duke knew Goya personally, but he definitely bought it at the time that these were published. And that explains the high quality of the series.

CO: And the other thing that I understand is leads to this high quality is that because they were put in this volume of other material, that they ended up being quite well preserved. Where exactly were they found?

SN: They were actually found in the library of the castle. It’s this castle that was actually bought by the duke in 1831 and it's been in the castle ever since but I think the family forgot about this set. It's actually an undescript volume that they found behind a row of books in their library in very very fine condition.

CO: And the owners didn't know they had this in the library, worth maybe a couple of million dollars?

SN: It was it was hidden behind a row of books and it's only when they actually asked someone to do the inventory of the library that it got rediscovered.

CO: And so now, do you think that he may have created these because he need to make some money or do you think that this was, because he wasn't doing well with the art that he was doing about war and anti-war. So do you think this was something he might have done in order to draw some income?

SN: I'm sure there was some commercial intention behind this. I don't know if at the time he was as successful as they are today, but he did that at the age of 70 as well. So he had a whole Curia behind him. And you can really feel that he is excelling in the medium and in the subject depicted.

CO: Now that world record for Goya prince set in New York just four years ago, another set of Goya bullfighting prints sold for 1.9 million U.S. dollars. What are you expecting from bidders at your sale next month?

SN: That’s the one million dollar question.

CO: Or maybe more than a million dollars.

SN: think in terms of quality, it’s similar to the set that you just mentioned. And the history behind this set is almost unmatchable. It's a niche market, but it's one of these works that can transcend collecting categories. So it's going to be interesting to see.

CO: All right we will see how this turns out, Ms. Nackers. Thank you.

SN: You're welcome. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

SN: Bye-bye.

CO: Séverine Nackers is the Head of Prints at Sotheby's Europe. Sotheby's is going to auction off the set of Goya's bullfighting etchings in London on April 4th. And you can find more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Vibrator Lawsuit

JD: If anything, the decision does serve as a warning: that it may not be a wise idea to connect your sex toy to the internet.
Last week, a Chicago court ruled that Canadian vibrator company We-Vibe is going to have to pay out 5 million dollars in damages to customers who used the product, along with the smartphone app that it was connected to.
The plaintiffs in the case argued We-Vibe was harvesting data about its customers, without their consent. And so, the judge ordered that We-Vibe pay out customers who used the toy, along with the smartphone app, a grand total of 10-thousand dollars each. And those who used the vibrator strictly offline will be awarded 200 dollars each for their trouble.
We brought you the story of this suit back when it was filed, the suit that is, last April. At the time, we spoke to Eve-Lynn Rapp. She represented the affected customers, including a Chicago woman who was the lead plaintiff in the case.

SOUNDCLIP

EVE-LYN RAPP: It's come to our attention that the company is actually recording specific information about her and other individuals’ usage of the device and that would include when it's on, how long it's being used for, what settings it's on, the temperature of the device. And so when that came to light, she understandably so, was pretty upset.

CO: And if I understand correctly, this monitoring is live.

ER: That's correct.

CO: It goes on as she is using her sex toy.

ER: Yes. If she is connected to the app, then it is being, then the information is being monitored live and transmitted to the company.

CO: Right just if you could describe what this vibrator looks like.

ER: It looks like a standard device. It's not I guess what a normal vibrator looks like in the traditional sense. From what I understand of the product.

CO: Then it vibrates.

ER: That's correct.

CO: But then it's remotely controlled.

ER: Yes. So there's two ways to control the device. It comes with a remote control that the user can have that is physically using the device. And then one where it would be paired with an app that someone could control in a location that is different than the one that you're at.

CO: And so what does the company itself say is the reason why they're collecting this data?

ER: They're saying that it's for diagnostic purposes, but to us that is entirely inappropriate especially given that they're not disclosing to the consumers and the people that are using this device who certainly have a high expectation of privacy with a product like this that they're doing this. So no matter what they're doing with it or what, you know, it doesn't matter if you're not telling people you're collecting this type of information. That's a problem.

JD: San Francisco-based attorney Eve-Lynn Rapp, speaking to Carol last April about a lawsuit filed against Canadian sex toy maker We-Vibe. The company has been ordered to pay 5 million dollars for collecting online data about its customers.

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March 13, 2017 episode transcript

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