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The AIH Transcript for June 18, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

CH: Tonight:

CH: And... summit time — and the living’s not easy. A British ultramarathon runs up — and down — 214 peaks in England's Lake District in less than six days on less than 10 hours sleep.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Friday edition. Radio that's sure she bounded along the official route, but now she must be fresh out of bounds.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: NACI AZ Guidelines, Montreal Police Knee on Neck, HFX Thrift Store

NACI AZ Guidelines

Guest: Maria Sundaram

CH: Generation AZ got their shot when they were told. But now, many are wondering if that was the right call? The National Advisory Committee on Immunization, or NACI, has recommended that provinces stop administering the AstraZeneca vaccine, even for a second dose. If you're keeping track, NACI said weeks ago that AstraZeneca was just not the "preferred" vaccine for first doses. And before that, there were several changes to how old, or young, you had to be to get the vaccine. So people are a bit confused. Maria Sundaram is an infectious disease epidemiologist and a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto's Centre for Vaccine Preventable Diseases. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Maria, can you blame Generation AZ for being a little bummed out by this news from NACI?

MARIA SUNDARAM: Of course not. No, it's perfectly understandable to feel bummed out by this.

CO: What are you hearing from people who got the AstraZeneca shot first?

MS: It's really kind of two sort of different groups. I think the first group is kind of... they just want to know a little bit more information. They want to know why this preference and, you know, if they've done something wrong by getting two shots of AstraZeneca. And those those questions are pretty easily addressed by just additional information about, you know, why we're making this, you know, this preferential recommendation, what small additional benefit could be had from, you know, giving a mRNA vaccine after an AstraZeneca vaccine, but also that they did get a lot of benefit from having two AstraZeneca vaccines. So being fully vaccinated earlier on that is an immense benefit both to them and the people around them. You know, the other group is, you know, a group of folks who kind of they really do understand, like, why this recommendation is being made. And they, you know, they kind of understand. Yeah, it was... it was a good choice for me to get two doses of AstraZeneca. But the messaging feels condescending and feels paternalistic that they said, oh, you know, you're doing the best that you can do, and it's helping everyone else. But they feel as though wasn't the best choice for them with this preferential recommendation. And I completely understand why that feels that way because it's really hard to suggest that it's otherwise.

CO: We're getting very conflicting information, though, aren't we? I mean, even yesterday, the... the minister of health in Ontario again repeated that the best vaccine is one that's available first. We've... we know that Justin Trudeau himself said his doctor had told him to get... to get AstraZeneca for the second shot. You're hearing that at the same time, NACI, the Naa-see I guess people also call it, is saying, no, this is you're better off to get another shot. This is the same organization that some weeks ago, the chairman of it said well, that she wouldn't recommend to her sister getting an AstraZeneca shot. What are people to make of all this?

MS: It's I think it's very, very challenging and it's... it's challenging because there have been changing recommendations. It's challenging because there have been updates to recommendations. And it's also challenging because we're hearing different messages from different people. So, [chuckling] I'm aware that I'm another person that's adding another sort of series of thoughts and information. And I kind of want to do my best to kind of synthesize all of this. So the main thing I think that's helpful to note is that most of the information about mixing and matching doses really just tells us it's not worse to mix and match. There's a very, very, very small amount of evidence that suggests that potentially we could have a slightly more antibody, slightly more immunological response with a different mix and matched second dose. But it's preliminary data. So the likelihood is that this recommendation is being made in the context of reduced demand for AstraZeneca vaccine, increasing availability of the mRNA vaccines, and then this kind of simultaneous, you know, concern about VITT or vaccine-induced thermostatic thrombocytopenia in particularly young women. And so that's kind of the context in which this preferential recommendation is happening, and that's likely why they issued this... this guidance. But it makes it sound as though it's wrong to get two AstraZeneca vaccines. And I really don't think that's the case.

CO: OK, so you've touched on something that people are [chuckling] very concerned about. Is that the... the... the guidelines or recommendations seem to change according to what's available. And so that at one point, it was absolutely necessary to wait — in Ontario to wait — 12 weeks between an AstraZeneca vaccine and another one. Suddenly there was eight weeks or was also eight weeks if you were... fell into certain dates where they had a lot of AstraZeneca, they were afraid of it expiring. So all these things are raising a lot of questions about whether or not these things are science-based decisions or political ones?

MS: Yeah, I think that's a completely fair question to be asking. And I think it's unfortunate that we can't really have consistent guidelines; we damage public trust. The... the guidelines of the dose intervals specifically for the AstraZeneca vaccines actually do come from the original clinical trials that investigated the safety and effectiveness of those vaccines. And those clinical trials found that a 12-week interval was actually a really good interval. It's not the same as that... you know, imposing that longer interval for the mRNA vaccines. But, you know, when we have more vaccine available, it's helpful for us to ask, hey, could we actually protect more people if we shorten the interval? And that's something I think that people also want to know. But I completely agree with you. You know, the flip side of that is that we are changing the recommendations again, and that causes confusion and also damages trust. It's a very, very challenging line to walk.

CO: We have to just also ask you about the Bruce Springsteen effect. [both chuckle] because, I mean, this is a… this came out of left field. But basically, he's been saying that you can't go to see his Broadway show if you've been vaccinated with AstraZeneca because it's not approved for use in the States. And so is that a signal of a kind of headache that's yet to come of people who got AstraZeneca who may not be able to travel to the U.S.?

MS: I think it's a signal that we're trying to figure out exactly how we can interact with each other post-vaccination. I suspect that this particular thing will be changing in the future, in the near future probably. You know, possibly from a policy standpoint. But also, I think it's helpful to keep in mind that the FDA still may issue an emergency, use authorization or full approval for the AstraZeneca vaccine, even though it's probably not likely to be a big part of the U.S. vaccine portfolio. You know, this is kind of falling in the category of other conversations that we're having about vaccine passports and guidelines for people who are fully vaccinated. What can they do, and what shouldn't they do yet? These are all important conversations to be having. And I think it's important, again, as... as we're getting more and more people in Canada vaccinated and more and more people with their second dose, we really, again, need some guidelines that are consistent with regard to, you know, what's safe, what's helpful, and then also what is going to help people travel even across the border?

CO: Consistent and universal guidelines. What a concept. [both laughing] Maria, thank you.

MS: It's my pleasure.

CH: Maria Sundaram is an infectious disease epidemiologist at the University of Toronto. And that is where we reached her.

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Montreal Police Knee on Neck

Guest: Frantz Benjamin

CH: A member of Quebec's national assembly is calling for an investigation into an arrest by Montreal police. A video has surfaced that shows two officers detaining a Black teenager. The young man is face-down on the ground, and the video shows one of the officers kneeling on his neck. Frantz Benjamin has reached out to offer assistance to the young man's family. Mr. Benjamin is the Liberal MNA for the Montreal riding of Viau. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Benjamin, how is the family responding to this incident?

FRANTZ BENJAMIN: Well, because I spoke with the parents of those two kids. Of course, they are shocked. They are traumatized. But earlier today, I spoke with one of the mothers once again. And in a way, you know, to help make sure that they have the resources they need to go through the legal process, and maybe they might need some psychological help also. It's a big thing, you know? Because when you're a parent, you don't expect to live with such a situation. And then it's tough, but they're OK.

CO: And you're mentioning two boys, one of them we've seen in the video. Police say the officers were responding to a fight at a school. And they are reviewing whether the use of force that we see in that video was appropriate. What do you make of these officers' actions?

FB: Well, I've seen at least seven or eight segments of video — of different segments of video — where you see... you see, you know, the arrest of two young boys. One of them is 14, one of them is 15. And it seems to me the first thing which shocked me was because it seems to me that regarding on... based on what I saw in the video, there was no resistance to the arrest. And one of them is handcuffed in the floor and a knee of a police officer on his neck. And, for me, it is... the first question I've asked after the shock that I was seeing such an image is, you know, what can justify such a firm action? Because there was no resistance visibly from the young... from the young boy. And I know that the... the work of the police is complex. It's difficult, it's tough, but it is also the duty of the police to make sure that they have to be exemplary when it comes to time to talk about the respect of human rights. And, for me, that's why, you know, in a matter of transparency, I ask that the inquiry, a complete inquiry, starting from the call they received from the school to... to look at, to analyze all the action taken by all the police officers to make sure that we have a complete inquiry to try to shore up the true transparency.

CO: Can we just go through the one video, the video that, of course, is traumatizing many people because it's so reminiscent of what happened to George Floyd. And what it shows is that the two officers are kneeling on this Black youth for about 15 seconds. They get his hands behind his back, they... they handcuff him. They're going through his belongings, and they're searching him. Then, they rise after about 15 seconds. And then the one officer who had his knee on the... on the young man's neck, he changes the position of the boy's body and then kneels again with both legs on the teen's neck and back. And it seems to... that he stays in that position for about 35 seconds. Is that what you've seen?

FB: Yes, This is... yes, this is one of the video that I saw. And I saw other videos, but that specific scene is, for me, remind me and remind a lot of people who called me from these past three days in my riding here and elsewhere; it remind us the images coming from the George Floyd story, which is — which was for everyone a collective trauma. And it remind us that thing that, unfortunately, ended sadly.

CO: The officer then shows something to the camera, which Montreal police now say was a taser. So what do you make of the possibility that he had a weapon?

FB: Well, it is the duty of the police, you know, to do their job, you know, in a way for everyone. I mean, and I repeat it again, for everyone to have a safe… to have a safe city. But it has to be done respectfully of the human rights. And in the same way, I'm saying I didn't see the boy arrested pose any resistance. What can justify the need of a police officer on his neck? This is what I'm asking for. And... and I saw… As I told you, I saw other images, and that's when I called up for an inquiry, a complete inquiry.

CO: And as you point out, he was also — the boy — was handcuffed behind his back at that point as well. But the police say that this... it was… they're saying it was not a neck hold that they had. But they point out that the neck hold is still a valid police technique in Montreal. And they are saying that they are going to do a complete review. They're not saying that it was appropriate, but they're reviewing it. So do you think you can rely on the police to do that investigation into their own actions?

FB: I'm not an expert in police technique and police technique, but I was surprised that one year after that story that shook up all the world regarding George Floyd that happened in Minneapolis that still some police departments — some police services — are saying this is part of the technical action, especially when you arrest someone who doesn't pose any resistance. I'm surprised of that. But I know there's a reviewing of the police techniques. I hope that things won't happen again in my city, in the city of Montreal.

CO: But are you calling for an independent investigation, or do you rely on the police to do their own?

FB: Well, some... I'm glad that some elected people at the municipal level and some politicians, like the mayor of Montreal, Valérie Plante, and as the latest mayor of Montreal, Denis Coderre, I heard that they asked for an independent inquiry. I think it might be a good thing. In a way, to have all the information collected, to know exactly what happened on June 10 on George Street and to take the good conclusions in a way to continue to work for the safety of all Montrealers by our police, professionally made in a way that's respectful of the human rights of everyone.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mr. Benjamin, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

FB: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: Frantz Benjamin is the Liberal Member of Quebec's National Assembly for the Montreal riding of Viau. We reached him in Montreal.

[music: indie rock]

HFX Thrift Store

Guest: Michelle Porter

CH: A Halifax thrift store is making something very clear: it loves Dr. Robert Strang, and it doesn't care who knows it. Dr. Strang is Nova Scotia's chief medical officer of health — and the steady hand on the tiller as the province begins to reopen. For the Souls Harbour Mission Mart, reopening day is tomorrow. And staff there have prepared a fitting tribute to the doctor. Michelle Porter is the CEO of Souls Harbour. We reached her at the store in Halifax.

CO: Michelle, first of all, just describe this tribute wall.

MICHELLE PORTER: Well, this is a photo display, and we've got all kinds of frames that have been donated during our lockdown. And so we're bulging at the seams with frames that we're reopening tomorrow. And every single photo frame has Dr. Strang in it.

CO: [chuckling] OK, just so all different sizes, colours, shapes of frames, every single one has a photo of Dr. Strang?

MP: Oh, yes! And not just photo frames. We've got a set of photo coasters. You can put your mug on Dr. Strang. We've got one of those photo journals that you can put your trinkets in. Dr. Strang's on that, too! [CO laughs] Oh, and even a tray where you can put your, you know, your cookies!

CO: There's a variety of pictures or just the same one?

MP: Well, there is a variety. We've got one landscape shot of him doing his daily briefings. And we have a portrait, which is more of a headshot. And the one of the portrait ones is in a frame, it's a graduation photo, and it looks like he's wearing a graduation cap.

CO: There's one that I've seen in the picture. Is that one of those flower petal circles, and he's in the middle of the flower petals.

MP: Oh, yes! [chuckling] The sunflower! Now it's gotten the most traction. Everyone loves Dr. Strang in the sunflower. It's brilliant yellow. It's very beautiful. It's like this old, old frame, like from the '80s, but it looks brand new.

CO: Do you have any idea how many images of Dr. Strang you actually have in the shop?

MP: Over 50 for sure. [CO chuckles] They're not just there. They're like hiding in the store in different places. And above our sandal section, we've got "Dr. Strang approved sandals" because you might remember he said, don't be going to Costco to buy those new sandals. Well, now you can, or you can buy them used at Mission Mart.

CO: So everywhere you turn in Souls Harbour thrift shop, you're going to come face-to-face with Dr. Strang, basically?

MP: Well, it's a little bit, yeah. Maybe not the real Dr. Strang, but we are just wanting people to have a little bit of light-heartedness, and I feel really good about summer coming, Phase 2 starting, and everything is not only on track but ahead of schedule to coming back to normal here in Halifax.

CO: Why did you want to make this tribute to Dr. Strang?

MP: The day that Phase 2 of the reopening plan started is when we did it. We had 75 per cent of our staff back that had been laid off. We had, you know, three or four days to get ready for our grand reopening of our store, Mission Mart. And we're like, what can we do to celebrate this and have some fun? And I think we had a little bit way too much fun with it. [CO laughs] People are saying it's either weird or wonderful, or maybe a bit of both.

CO: So some people might find it a bit creepy?

MP: Yeah, someone said it was creepy. My husband put that! He said this is a little bit creepy. I'm like, no, it's hilarious! [laughing]

CO: But basically, as it is in every province, most of us had never known the name of the chief medical officer of health in their province before. Had you ever heard of Dr. Strang before all this began?

MP: Well, I had, but most people have not, definitely. And he's really become a local hero here, more so than in other provinces. We have seen everyone knows Dr. Strang and loves him, and they do what he says. You know, he doesn't need to legislate anything. He just needs to speak, and we do it.

CO: If you go into the store, everyone who goes into the store from... from Nova Scotia or Halifax will know exactly who this man is in the frame, right?

MP: Oh, yes, definitely. There's no signage. It's like, oh, no, they will know. One of our staff members wasn't working the morning I announced I was doing this, and she came in and walked by the wall of frames and just stopped in her tracks and burst out laughing. [CO chuckles] It's quite startling. He actually has commented on it to me, on all of this attention.

CO: What did he say?

MP: [chuckling] First, he sent me two one-liners, and he said, well, that photo display is certainly getting a lot of attention, with some smiling emojis. And the next day, after we were on the radio [laughing] with the CBC earlier, and he said, OK, I'm not quite sure what to make of all this was. So I was like, you know what, just celebrate Dr. Strang Week, it's OK!

CO: [chuckling] But again, these medical officers are usually not in the limelight as much as they have. So it's... I think it a bit strange for them to be so exposed.

MP: Well, especially in this way. This is like a little bit over the top, you know? Here we've got them in a bridal frame. We've got him in [chuckling] every size, a frame from the tiniest one that says "baby" to the large one that's so big it doesn't fit on the shelf.

CO: What's your favourite?

MP: My favourite? The sunflower, for sure!

CO: Are you going to hold anyone back to get that one of these pictures with the frames to actually present to Dr. Strang at some point?

MP: You know what? I got that idea from... from someone yesterday; why don't you take your favourite and send him the one in the sunflower? And I'm like, you know what? I just might do that. But, hopefully, he's not listening to this right now.

CO: Finally, this reopening tomorrow, right? Just to tell us a bit about how important that is. Well, how are people in your shop — and your staff — responding to that?

MP: It's so important. Mission Mart is a thrift store social enterprise that supports Soul Harbour Rescue Mission. We work with people, men, women and children who don't have enough to eat every day. So everything we do is free of charge. And this place helps to support our programs that way. The reopening — Dr. Strang Day — was also because we were so happy that we were going to be able to do that again.

CO: Well, why don't you invite Dr. Strang to come to the thrift shop for Dr. Strang Day?

MP: Dr. Strang, if you're listening, you are more than welcome. I'm going to be here for about 12 hours tomorrow from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. I'd love to see you.

CO: Sounds great! Michelle, it's great to talk to you. And congratulations on reopening.

MP: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

MP: Bye now.

CH: Michelle Porter is the CEO of Souls Harbour Mission Mart. We reached her at the store in Halifax. To see some of these framed pictures of Dr. Strang, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: bright piano]

Betelgeuse Star Dims

CH: Change is hard. Especially the kind that involves a sudden and unwelcome shift. Like, say, one day you're living your big, bright life at full wattage. And the next, your star just fades. No one can say exactly why — least of all you. Because you aren't just a superstar. You're a supergiant star — 800 times bigger than the sun. Which is why, Betelgeuse, the brightest star of the Orion constellation, you really freaked some astronomers out a couple of years ago when you seemed to lose more than half your light. They started calling it the Great Dimming. Some braced for a universe-rattling supernova. But now, like Bennifer, you're back, as bright as ever. And new research published in the journal Nature suggests a reason for that. According to an international team of astrophysicists your light was never gone. It was just blocked by stardust that formed after you issued a particularly enormous gaseous emission from a bubble on your surface, measuring roughly 600 million kilometers across. Which is to say you belched. Like, the kind of belch where you can say the whole alphabet. Several times. But now, that gas has passed, and you're back to the big time, burning brightly as ever. And if that period felt a little dark to you, remember: it's better to burp out than to fade away.

[music: ambient]

Part 2: Liberia War Crimes Conviction, Britain Ultramarathoner

Liberia War Crimes Conviction

Guest: Alain Werner

CH: A court in Switzerland has made Alieu Kosiah the first Liberian to be convicted of war crimes in that country's civil war. The former rebel commander was found guilty this morning of a list of atrocities in the 1990s — including murder, rape, and the recruitment of child soldiers. Today's decision is a victory for the Swiss war crimes lawyer Alain Werner. Mr. Werner worked with Alieu Kosiah's victims to secure a conviction that is a first not just for Liberia, but for Switzerland as well. We reached Alain Werner on a train in western Europe. And a warning, he will be describing the horrific crimes.

CO: Mr. Werner, how are Alieu Kosiah's victims responding to this conviction?

ALAIN WERNER: I think they responded with some kind of relief because it has been a very long journey. Some of them went through a lot of things to... to have this day today. All of them came all the way from Liberia to Switzerland to testify. So I think to hear that the judges believe them, they are very, very happy about that.

CO: these crimes against them — and so many others — committed between 1993 and 1995 in Liberia. So, as you say, a very long time ago, but I'm sure very... very imprinted in the memories of these people. Can you tell us some of the things that they suffered?

AW: Yes, so it was a time of extreme brutality in the First Civil War in Liberia with ethnic violence, with Charles Taylor's group, the NPFL, which went brutally against the Mandingo minority group of Muslims. And as a result, the Mandingos — some member of the Mandingos — created this militia. And very unfortunately, that happens sometimes. And this group itself became basically a bunch of perpetrators who themselves started to commit atrocities against other civilians. And this is exactly what happened in a place called Lofa during the First Civil War, where they were enslaving a large part of the population, forcing them to carry looted goods that they have to bring to the border in Guinea to be sold. And anyone who could not carry would have been killed. And they committed a lot... a lot of violence. They were basically trying to instil terror in the civilian population to ensure that nobody would basically resist their rules. So, it was extremely, extremely violent. And in the judges, you know, in a way here, we know nothing of civil war. Switzerland has been, thank God, peaceful for so many centuries. But these judges, these judges knew nothing of the Liberian civil war. They really, really try to understand the context and what they said today that they sort of got what happened, got the degree of brutality that these people went through and believe their stories.

CO: it is really hard to get your mind around how brutal this period was. And this particular man, Alieu Kosiah, was convicted of killing people, of civilians, of soldiers, but also a rape, of deploying child soldiers, looting, as you mentioned, the the degrading treatment of people. And I guess also cannibalism is also among those convictions, right?

AW: Yes, absolutely right. So today, he was found guilty to have with other commanders participating in eating the heart of the civilians. That was a civilian was killed and then butchered. And then they took his heart and then they cut it and then chew it. And this, again, was part of a tactic, we believe, to instil terror and to ensure that the civilians understood very well that if they were going to try anything against that armed group, then this was going to happen to them or their loved ones. And this was the NPLF. This Liberian civil war was absolutely brutal.

CO: This man, Alieu Kosiah, he moved to Switzerland just a few years after all these... these crimes were committed. And he lived in Switzerland for 15 years before he was arrested. Why... what brought... why did he come to be tried in Switzerland for these crimes?

AW: Yeah, so... so this is a very good question. Indeed, he came, I think, ‘98, ‘99 here. He couldn't get asylum. Eventually, he married a Swiss woman who allowed him to stay here. Later, he got divorced, but he was still able to live here. And basically, I started in 2012, after many years in the International Tribunals, I started this network, Civitas Maxima, which basically is essentially trying to work with civil society to get evidence on what we call forgotten... were forgotten victims who could not, cannot get justice at home for these international crimes, and then work with the civil society to get the stories and then see whether we could get jurisdiction because the law — international law — allows you to get jurisdiction outside the country where the crimes were committed if someone lives in another country. And this is exactly what happened with Alieu Kosiah.

CO: So extraordinary that people finally should see some justice for what they suffered in Liberia. Because there's never been a conviction in that country, right? I mean, we know about the very highly-publicized trial of President Charles Taylor, who was convicted for crimes, though, that were committed in Sierra Leone. So how important is it for people in Liberia to have seen Alieu Kosiah actually convicted in Switzerland?

AW: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. There has been attempts, you mentioned Charles Taylor, this is for Sierra Leone. Absolutely correct. His son in Miami was convicted for crimes during the Second Civil War. He was convicted to 90 years, but it was for torture, not for war crimes. And then we ourselves got litigation in 2017, 2018 in the U.S. against two actors as well of the civil war. But it was for immigration crimes. Specifically for war crimes count, this is the first time against a Liberian. There was one case in the Netherlands against a businessman, a Dutch businessman, for complicity, but never against Liberians. So to answer your question, I think it's very, very significant. This is really Liberian history that these victims have written. They went all the way across the world to... to write this history. And I hope — and I think it is the hope of the Liberian civil society — is that all these trials outside Liberia help in civil society to get finally and the Liberian politician to set up what has been the wish of the Liberian Truth and Reconciliation Commission since 2009 to set up a mechanism for accountability for war crimes in Liberia.

CO: Mr Werner, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AW: OK, thanks a lot for your time and your interest.

CO: Bye-bye.

AW: OK, bye.

CH: Alain Werner is the director of Civitas Maxima which provides independent legal representation for the victims of war crimes and crimes against humanity. We reached him on a train, in western Europe.

[music: indie rock]

Nova Scotia Curriculum Offensive Material

CH: A Nova Scotia teenager is giving the provincial government an education about the content of its Grade 10 English curriculum. Malaika Joudry-Martel lives on Bear River First Nation. She was taking a correspondence course when she got to the "First Nations" unit — at which point her studiousness gave way to anger. Shalan Joudry is Malaika's mom. Here is part of her conversation with the CBC's Frances Willick.

SOUNDCLIP

SHALAN JOUDRY: So we sat down, and I was scrolling through, and some of the other language through the other units was problematic. And my Spidey Senses were tingling. And she said, Mama, you're not going to like the First Nations unit. So I scrolled down, and I saw this chart about the residential school — what are the advantages?

FRANCES WILLICK: Mm-hmm.

SJ: And I just hovered over that. And my temperature was raising a little bit. And I thought we already dealt with this very outdated, racist kind of curriculum. I thought we in Canada — Nova Scotia — already dealt with this. I thought we already removed this from curriculum. And so, just coming off the heels of all the news about the children being unearthed was such a starking moment to be looking at this. And in our small community of L'sitkuk, Bear River First Nation, there were... it just feels like a generation of children who left to Shubenacadie. And the people who came home did not come home well. And we today are living with the effects of that school. I entrusted the Nova Scotia education system, and I know that this was the correspondence program. So I saw a little bit of online defence from the Nova Scotia Department. I thought, oh, well, this isn't in our curriculum. This is just the correspondence program. I said yes, but in a pandemic, the correspondence program is helping me to homeschool my children. So I entrusted the Nova Scotia Department of Education. Their official grade 10 English course by course correspondence has this in it. And, like, the first time that my daughter's eyes laid on that page, I was not with her. And it made her very, very sad. And there were other problems in that unit; things like to ask the students to consider, you know, why are there so many issues with alcohol in First Nation communities? And so even things like that, I thought, wait a second, this is actually perpetuating racism and stereotypes, not assisting with critical thought.

CH: That was Shalan Joudry talking to the CBC's Frances Willick about the offensive material she found in her daughter's correspondence English curriculum. Nova Scotia's education minister has promised to remove that material.

[music: bright piano]

Britain Ultramarathoner

Guest: Sabrina Verjee

CH: Sabrina Verjee slept very well last night. Yesterday morning, the ultra-marathon runner completed her run of all 214 Wainwright peaks in England. The route is more than 500 kilometres long and includes the summit of England's highest mountain. And Ms. Verjee crushed it. She finished in five days, 23 hours, 49 minutes and 12 seconds — making her the fastest athlete ever to do it by more than six hours. We reached Sabrina Verjee in Ambleside, England.

CO: Sabrina, first of all, big congratulations.

SABRINA VERJEE: Thank you. I'm very pleased. [chuckling]

CO: How are your legs feeling today?

SV: Yeah, I'm surprised. They feel really good, given that I've had to try and recover from this a few times, and the recovery is going really, really well.

CO: OK, just maybe tell us, now, this is 523 kilometres, which you did in less than six days and broke the record by six hours. Just... just describe what this is. What... what are the Wainwright peaks? Tell us about that.

SV: So there was a chap who did a list of seven books describing these 214 summits in the Lake District. So that was Wainwright. So well, about seven years ago, Steve Birkinshaw, who's a good navigator and interested in maps, he put the route together of an efficient way to go and visit these tops in one round. Yeah, it's just a way to go and visit all these... these Wainwright summits, we call them.

CO: [laughing] I'm sure there are easier ways to go and visit all the Wainwright summits. [both laughing]

SV: That's right. Lots of people do bag these summits, you know, a few at a time, and they might take a year or so to take them off their list. It's a nice pastime.

CO: What is it about these peaks that made you... that you had to conquer them as the fastest person to do it?

SV: Well, I wasn't driven by that. I was driven by the journey of doing it. And I wanted to do it as fast as I could do it. So I set about what we call wrecking the route, you know, having a look at ways that I might be able to save some time by going a slightly better way and just working out how long it would take me to go and do it all. And I knew that the previous record held by Paul Tierney, he'd had a lot of sleep and spent time doing things that I probably wouldn't need to do, like dressing feet or having lots of massages. And so I put my own schedule together and worked out what I thought the fastest time I could do, and it was about six days.

CO: But you've tried it before, right? And didn't succeed.

SV: So, I say it's the fourth attempt because the first time I set off last year was during COVID. And I had to stop not because of anything to do with me, but due to coronavirus. So was pulled up on that one. I set off then about four or five weeks after that, but the weather had been really bad. And then, on top of that, towards... well, about four days in, I injured my knee, and really I should have just stopped but kind of hobbled around with a bit of support. And it took me six days and 18 hours, something like that. And then five or six weeks ago, again, I tried, and I did 370 kilometres. And then the weather, it started to snow, which set my asthma off. So I had a severe asthma attack, and I had to stop. [laughing]

CO: Oh, my gosh! But you weren't finished with these Wainwrights at that point, were you?

SV: Yeah, I was determined. I had to get these [laughing] Wainwrights, and I had to do it in six days. That was always the challenge. So I knew… I knew I couldn't leave it alone.

CO: Now, you say you didn't... you figured out that Paul Tierney, who had the previous record in 2019, that you could cut off some of that time by not stopping as much. What did you actually do? Like, what did you stop for? What did... how did you manage these six days?

SV: So the goal was always to just keep running. But in order to do that, you know, you have bodily functions. You have got to eat and drink and sleep. So we would have at least two people with me on the hill at all times, and they would be carrying my food and water and warm kit. And so I would try and eat as much as possible while I was moving, so easily digestible food, things like gels. And then there’s a new product out as well called Supernatural. And it's a bit like baby food, except it's for adults. [both laughing]

CO: [sounding grossed out] OK.

SV: Flavours like banana oats and maple syrup. And then I would get into the end of a leg, and my husband would be there with our camper van, and he would make me a good meal to eat. And while I was eating, someone might change my shoes and socks and then, you know, off I'd go again. [chuckling]

CO: Were there any times during all these... these accents and descents and these peaks when you thought, I can't do this. Did you ever give up?

SV: Not once. [laughing] No, it was one of those things that I knew I could... I always knew I could do it. And all the other attempts, I was frustrated because it was always something out of my control, the weather or coronavirus or, you know, an asthma attack. So I knew I could do it if there was something that didn't disrupt me that was out of my control. [chuckling]

CO: You're not only inspiring a lot of women because you were the fastest woman to do this course, you were the fastest person to ever complete the Wainwright peaks. And so what kind of an inspiration have you… [laughing] have you become for many runners?

SV: Yeah, this was one of the most amazing things that has come out of this. I didn't really realize that I could inspire so many people just by sharing by running. The tracker that I carried around to show that I'd been to the peaks, so people could follow my dot, you could send messages on the website, and they would come back onto the app. So when I was having any low moments, I would just say, oh, could you read me a few messages from the open tracking site? And they would say really nice things like, oh, wow, I've just seen your dot, and I've gone to sleep and... and then I woke up again, and you're still running, and you're such an inspiration or something like that. And it's... it's... it's so nice that I could have those messages well... well going along. And yeah, people are getting out running and enjoying the mountains. And that's why I do it, you know, to be able to experience being outdoors and the different terrain and... and views that you get from these summits. It’s incredible.

CO: Wonderful! Well, I think you not only have maybe inspired people to get out and run, but I think people will, because of the pictures, I want to visit the Lake Districts.

SV: Well, they should!

CO: But maybe not running for six days. [laughing]

SV: Yeah, challenge yourself to one. It can just be one summit at a time.

CO: [laughing] OK, Sabrina, again, congratulations and thank you.

SV: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Sabrina Verjee is the fastest athlete to complete the Wainwright peaks. We reached her in Ambleside, England. And we have some photos of those peaks, and Ms. Verjee, on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: folk]

FOA: Octopus Pain Bill

CH: They may not have backbones, but they sure have feelings. In the U.K., an animal sentience bill is currently under consideration. It acknowledges that fish and other vertebrates feel pain, and should be protected in future U.K. government policy. But a group of Conservative MPs is fighting to have invertebrates like octopuses included, too. That might be in part because of the hit Netflix documentary "My Octopus Teacher." But it's also in line with a growing body of research that shows octopuses are highly intelligent, and they experience pleasure and pain. Giovanni DeGarimore knows that firsthand. He's a California fishmonger who, in May of 2018, bought a 70-pound octopus just so he could release it back into the sea. He told Carol what was on his mind when he did it.

SOUNDCLIP

GD: I've been fortunate to be able to go diving around the world, whether it's Fiji, or Tahiti, or Mexico, or Thailand, or you know all of the world. I've been fortunate to go diving, and had an interaction with an octopus quite a few years ago in Fiji, where I was actually able to play hide-and-seek with one while scuba diving at night for a good ten or 15 minutes. And I would kind of poke my head up, and he'd look, and then I'd put my head down, and he'd look for me. And it was a moment underwater — I’ve had many — that I'll never forget.

hey're highly intelligent creatures. They have many more sets of genes than most other animals. They’re highly intelligent. They’re, allegedly, capable of emotion and feeling. And so you know to me, that's kind of where I draw the line. So when I played with this octopus, it was clear that he was as interested in me as I was in him. And like I said, we'd kind of did this up and down. He looked at me and poked his head out at me. And then we went back and forth for so long that it was just kind of surreal.

CO: It sounds just delightful, but this was ten years ago. Have you had close encounter with an octopus since then?

GD: Oh, many. Yeah, I mean I haven’t played games with them, but I remember being in Mexico once, and I grabbed a conch shell from the bottom of the ocean, and was carrying it back to shore as kind of a trophy, you know? And as I was swimming back — I was about a hundred hard yards off the shore —my hands were kind of curled inside this conch shell as I was holding it. And I could feel these little tentacles touching my fingertips. And I immediately knew what it was. I knew that this was octopus because I could tell by the feeling of the suction of my fingers. And so I'd put the shell on the beach and waited a few minutes, and a couple tourist gathered around to see why I was staring at the shell. And sure enough, after about a minute, you know one tentacle, then two, then eight emerged and he was trying to make a getaway for back to the ocean. So I actually took him and placed him on my hand, and he held on, and we swam through the ocean together. And he seemed like he was enjoying the ride as we swam through the ocean for you know a hundred yards back out to where I found him. It seemed like he was really enjoying the ride, and he held on tight. I actually had to remove him to get him to go back to his home, which was a bit hole in the bottom. You can always tell an octopus home in the ocean because it's usually decorated with a bunch of shells or littered however you want to think about it, but mussels, and clams, and snails, and such — the things that they eat.

CO: His octopus's garden. And this one that you bought to release, did you get to know him? Did you keep him long to become friends?

GD: I did, he was only here for about a day before we released him. But I went out and said hi to him, petted him, you know he's very soft, and his big eyes looking at you, and his suction cups kind of feeling your hand like holding your hand — holding your hand almost.

CH: Fish monger Giovanni DeGarimore, speaking to Carol in May 2018.

[music: elevator music]

Part 3: Encore: Emily Urquhart

Encore: Emily Urquhart

CH: Thanks to climbing vaccination rates across the country, some families who celebrate Father's Day will be able to do so in person this weekend. But ongoing travel and gathering restrictions mean many will still need to get creative — as they've already been doing for fourteen long months. Fortunately for Emily Urquhart, creativity has never been in short supply in her family. Her mother is the celebrated writer Jane Urquhart. Emily's a writer herself. Her half-siblings have various creative pursuits of their own. And her father, Tony Urquhart, is one of the country's best known abstractionist painters. In his younger years, Emily says critics referred to him as "Boy Wonder." But as time went on, that interest and acclaim began to fall off. What did not diminish was Tony's talent — and his immense capacity for creativity. Emily Urquhart captures both in her book, "The Age of Creativity: Art, Memory, My Father, and Me." On the eve of Father's Day weekend, here's part of her conversation with Carol about its release, from September, 2020.

[sc]

CO: Emily, first of all, welcome to As It Happens.

EMILY URQUHART: Thank you. It's nice to be here.

CO: There is so much you could have said or written about your father -- Tony Urquhart is a Canadian art legend, isn't he? But why did you want to write a portrait of the artist as an old man?

EU: Well, I think it started because people were commenting on how remarkable he was, particularly in his old age. So after he turned 80 and continued to make art, when people would ask me about my dad, they would say, wow oh, he's still making art, he's still being creative, that is remarkable. And for a long time, I thought, well, yeah, I guess that is remarkable. And then something happened to turn that around where I suddenly realized that maybe it's not remarkable. Maybe it's actually normal that you could be creating even some of your best work in your old age. And the idea took hold. And I started with it and I sat down with my dad and he started having some conversations about the topic.

CO: And your exploration, though, begins with your one of your dad's paintings called Earth Returns to Life. What is it about that image that kicked off this journey?

EU: Well, my dad and I visited the AGO together...

CO: The Art Gallery of Ontario.

EU: The Art Gallery of Ontario, yes. And we were visiting actually, after having been to a memorial service for a close family friend. And so I think the end was sort of floating around in the air at that point. We often go to galleries together. This isn't unusual. He took me up to the second floor to a room of postwar art, Canadian art. And a specific room. And he asked me if I could identify any of the works there. And again, that's not unusual because we do that a lot. You know, I have a degree in art history and he'll often see if he can sort of stump me on, you know, being able to identify the paintings in the room. Sometimes I can. Sometimes I can't. This time there were a few I had an idea about, but one in particular that we were standing in front of which he seemed to be gesturing towards. I didn't know. And it turned out that that was the painting Earth Returns to Life. It was his work. He'd done it when he was 24 years old. And I didn't recognize it. And that is unusual for me because I've learned my dad's art like a language.

CO: Right. And this is a painting your dad doesn't particularly like...[Laughter]

EU: [Laughter] No, he was really critical of it. He was saying, oh, well, it's immature .you know, it had this sort of the beginnings of the abstract expressionist works that he would go on to make. But it hadn't quite reached that abstraction yet. And he thought the forms were too formative. And anyhow, he sort of critiqued it as if he was critiquing a young student's painting. And it struck me that he you know, here he is, at the time 82, and he's looking at this younger self in his 20s and he's being quite critical. And I thought that was interesting. But I also thought it was interesting that he was making better work now in his 80s than he was in his 20s. And that seemed to be the opposite of conventional thought.

CO: And this is something that really struck you because at the same time you were seeing a deterioration in your father.

EU: Yes. And it didn't actually become apparent to me that he was facing memory loss issues at that particular moment. But as we began our sort of journey together, where I started to interview him specifically about making art later in life and about his past as well. And it became a little more clear to me that he was facing some memory loss issues. And so that became also a part of what I was looking at in terms of my interviews and the story I wanted to tell.

CO: But what did you discover about your father as an artist, even as he couldn't remember key things and you describe that and it was obviously rattling to you as it would be, what were you seeing about his own creativity?

EU: I think the strongest thing that I noticed about my dad's creativity is that it didn't waver. And so we all have this idea that with aging and the various, you know, disabilities that can come with aging, that, of course, your output, if you're an artist, it's going to diminish or it's going to fail. But his creativity went unwavering. He continued to make art. And sometimes it had to change because his body was changing. But it didn't mean that he was a different person and it didn't mean that he wasn't an artist.

CO: As you document he has a diagnosis of dementia that you and he have to deal with. What effect did that have on his own perception of himself and his abilities?

EU: Interestingly enough, the diagnosis was actually kind of a relief, I think, for him because he was facing memory problems and he wanted to know what was wrong and what was happening. And the thing about my dad is that he's always known his purpose from the very beginning, from when he was a small child really, and continues to know his purpose today -- and that is he gets up in the morning and he makes art. And so once that idea of, you know, dementia okay yes, that's a diagnosis -- he can put that aside and he can just focus on his art. He doesn't have to worry about it anymore. He knows it's happening. What he really cares about is making his next drawing.

CO: And your family didn't want people to know about this diagnosis. Initially, they were worried that people would be dismissive of his art if they knew it. But what you saw of the work is that it actually took on a different meaning -- it became that he wasn't doing the same types of art, especially those huge canvases, but yet the work had a new creativity to it.

EU: Yeah. The work that he does now, it's the same style, but definitely as he has aged even just with strength he can't make the large scale works that he made in the past. So now he stays in one place, it's his drawing room, which is actually literally a drawing room. So the place where he has his pens and pencils and paper, and he draws in there. And in the past, he would have had some kind of studio, which he still does, but he doesn't use it as often. And, you know, his views are shorter -- like most of us in 2020, he wasn't able to leave the house very often. He's looking out his window more than he is -- he's no longer travelling in Europe, which he did for his whole lifetime every spring to draw in European churches and graveyards and other places that inspired him. But he's finding new inspiration in the landscape that is directly outside his window.

CO: And you did some research around as you're struggling with trying to understand your father's dementia. You researched what parts of the brain actually are creative and that it wasn't just your perception or what you could see of your father that seemed that he was creative despite everything else, even though he was forgetting other things, he wasn't forgetting how to draw. What did you learn about the capacity of people with dementia in order to be creative, even with that diagnosis?

EU: Well, I think for somebody like my father, he has been painting and drawing his whole life. And so it's kind of a well-worn pathway, the sort of innate memory that hasn't diminished. He might occasionally forget to maybe set up his drawing station in the morning or go to his drawing room. But once he's there and once he's drawing, he is in his own zone and he doesn't forget how to make art, he doesn't forget how to draw. And he doesn't get any less joy out of it either, which is another amazing part of this diagnosis that I wouldn't have been able to foresee before living through it with him.

CO: But you found out that it is there's no reason why he can't be creative. This is not exceptional -- and your father this is something that we're learning more and more about what parts of the brain actually are affected by dementia and Parkinson's and diseases like that.

EU: Yes, I definitely discovered that a lot of the studies that were done on creativity are quite outdated. They look at creativity as a product as opposed to an act to create -- create is a verb. And it's not something you can quantify. So if an artist is older, their productivity might fall down because they are you know, they're getting older and frailer and they probably won't be necessarily not in all cases but be as productive, make as many paintings at the end of that particular year. But it doesn't mean that they're not continuing to be creative. I think they just looked at creativity in the wrong way, I guess -- and not as an act rather than a product.

CO: If you're just tuning in, we are speaking with Emily Urquhart about her father, Tony Urquhart, and about her new book about him, The Age of Creativity. And you are listening to As It Happens. You review other people and their late life creativity in this book in The Age of Creativity. You look at other examples. I want to ask you about a few of them. And one of them is Willem de Kooning -- that you raise him as an example of what happens in later life to creativity. You want to tell us that story?

EU: So Willem de Kooning is probably at least one of the foremost abstract expressionists out of the U.S.. And in his later years he developed Alzheimer's and he started painting differently because of that. So he might focus on one section of the canvas and forget about the rest. This is in the later stages of his Alzheimer's. And so he had assistants who would turn the canvas for him. But I wondered, you know, what if they just let him create as an artist who happens to have memory loss, who happens to be dealing with Alzheimer's or dementia? Why not just let him do what he was going to do? The other thing that happened with de Kooning is that the later works because they looked different, they were more spare, there was more blank spaces, fewer colours. He sort of started to concentrate on sort of a trio of colours. They were valued as lesser within the art world and within the art market -- and that continues today. And people have been quite cruel. Critics saying, well, who would pay that that sum of money for paintings that are done by an artist clearly working with a one cylinder? You know, really kind of cruel statements.

CO: They actually use that phrase "one cylinder," didn't they?

EU: Yes, they did. They used that exact phrase. It seems that people can't accept art that's done by somebody who happens to have a disability. We're very focused on the status quo. And also it's a bit of ableism and it's also ageism.

CO: And I mean, the ageism and the ableism is not just people who have diagnoses like your father or Willem de Kooning. Some of the other examples that are really striking is you went to actually some people you can't talk to, like Claude Monet -- you wanted to talk to him about this, Water Lilies that he did so late in life. But another really interesting example is Martha Henry, the Stratford actor who in the beginning of her career began playing the role of Miranda in The Tempest -- in Shakespeare's The Tempest. And then in her later life, just recently plays Prospero, a man, in another part of her career. What struck you about the Martha Henry story?

EU: I saw Martha's story as an example of kind of an enormous creative stretching and innovation in the later parts of one's career, because, as you say, not only is she playing two completely opposite parts -- now she's playing a part that originally and traditionally and in most cases is played by a man. And she has to reconfigure and rethink, you know, in some ways how she's addressed Shakespeare her entire career. So speaking with Martha Henry was a real revelation in terms of creative stretching late in life and also in terms of how in your older years, she was 80 at the time, you maybe have to work a little differently and sometimes you have to work harder. You know, she told me an anecdote about how when she played Miranda, she learned the lines in the car on the way to Toronto, and she happened to be driving. [Chuckles] And then when she was learning her lines for Prospero, she went over the play every day just so that she could keep them in her head. So, you know you think about actually she's working harder at 80 than she was in her 20s.

CO: And you never stop learning, do you?

EU: No. Absolutely not. It's a lifelong thing, learning.

CO: Also some of the other people you speak of -- one of them is a friend, Bruce McCall. Maybe people don't know that he's a Canadian. They just know his work on the covers of New Yorker magazines and the writing he has done. He is just an absolutely extraordinary, funny, insightful man. And you went to see him in New York City in a really difficult part of his life. Can you tell us about that?

EU: I went to see Bruce in in New York City and I visited at his apartment. He at the time had Parkinson's for a few years and he had written to me before to let me know that it had progressed quite rapidly in a short period of time, leading up to when I would see him for our meeting. And so he wasn't able to paint anymore. This I discovered after coming to the apartment. He tried to tell me this in a few different ways. And I'm not sure -- I think I was not understanding or maybe it was too hard to hear having, you know, a father of the same age and worrying about my father not being able to paint anymore as well. But in any case, he had to actually demonstrate it for me. He took me into his studio and he showed me the New Yorker cover that he'd been working on. And the image was of a runner. The runner is elderly and the people on the benches are young and they're all looking at their phones. But the old person is the person who is exercising, which is just a great example of his humor. You know, the young people are just scrolling, the elderly person is the one being active. But it was unfinished. The runner's legs were unfinished. He can no longer hold a pencil or a paint brush. And so he had to let it go. He couldn't finish his last cover. And the story could have ended there and been quite somber. But that same day that I met with him, he was in the midst of writing his memoir because he's also a writer and he is able to use the keyboard. And that is not a problem for him. So he just switched gears. You know, I think creative people, they face barriers and they're hard. They're challenging barriers. But a creative person is always going to find a way through and a new way of innovating.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And this is a feature conversation with Emily Urquhart about her father, the celebrated Canadian artist Tony Urquhart. And it's about her new book about him called The Age of Creativity. Emily, on that trip when you went to see Bruce McCall, you were with your father. The two of you had gone to New York to see art and you were very worried about him the whole time you were seeing Bruce McCall, that he was back in the hotel room, you didn't know if maybe he wouldn't forget and leave the room and he wouldn't find him. And what was the purpose of that trip? What did it mean to the both of you?

EU: My father and I have been travelling together my entire life, actually from [chuckles] I think even when my mom was pregnant with me, we were travelling in Europe. And my dad and I are good travelling companions. We both really like art and can spend quite a lot of time at an art gallery together where another person might get bored and have to leave. And we like to eat. So we like to look at art and we like to eat. We've travelled together all our lives. And my dad has also travelled solo to look at art and and to make art. But as he got older and particularly as as he was diagnosed with dementia, it became clear that he wasn't going to be making those kind of trips anymore, at least not on his own. And so I had already planned to go to New York City. And beforehand, my dad came to me and he gave me his Museum of Modern Art card to use when I was in New York. But he was very adamant that I give it back to him. He said, you know, just don't lose it, okay? Make sure you give it back to me. And I thought, oh, my God, he thinks he's going back to New York. And I just don't see that happening at this point in his life. And so, of course, in the same moment, I thought, well, I guess he has to come with me. So this trip, I feel like I hate to say it's our last, because that's very sad, but it was definitely one of our best. And I'm so glad we did it.

CO: You went and you saw art. And you went to the Museum of Modern Art, of course a couple of times.

EU: Yes. [Laughs]

CO: But you did go to a very unusual place I want you to tell us about -- you went to a show at something called the Carter Burden Gallery. And what is it about that place that this struck you?

EU: So this is a gallery that only shows work by artists who are over the age of 60. It's the only gallery of its kind and it's necessary because of the ageism in the art industry. So if you are younger than 60, you don't even bother, just wait. You've got to be over 60 to even bring your portfolio to their door. And they've done this so that they can showcase older artists who, you know, maybe they've been working their whole lives and they haven't managed to get a break yet. And now they're older and the doors are closing -- every door is closing now because of the ageism in the art industry. So they came up with this idea to create a gallery where they would just showcase people who were over 60 and working artists.

CO: And what was it like to be at that opening?

EU: The opening was amazing. In some ways, it was surreal. It reminded me of my dad's art openings that I went to since I was a child. You know, filled with lots of people. There's wine, there's lots of talk. But if you looked around that gallery, you would see that the artists -- actually the artists and everyone in the room were of a certain age. They were older. You can see a lot of silver hair and white hair and wrinkles and, you know, but at the same time, everyone was just as effervescent as anyone has ever been at an art opening. The same feeling was in the room. That feeling like this is an event, this is exciting or we're at the possibility of something new happening. Maybe a new dealer is going to see your work or there'll be new opportunities following this, as there usually are with art openings. So it was really interesting because you would maybe assume that a gallery that was specific to people who were of a certain age, I don't know, it might be more subdued at the art opening and that it's just the opposite.

CO: There's a lovely passage about midway through your book that I think gets at what you're saying, and I'm just going to read -- I'm going to quote you back to yourself. You write: "The fundamental misunderstanding of our time, maybe of all time, is that we belong to one age group or another. The idea that seniors or the elderly or old people, however it makes us feel better to call them, are anyone other than we ourselves in a few scant decades is a farce. Barring illness or injury, we will all grow old. There's no us and them. There was only ever an us." What do you think it's going to take for us to start thinking about ourselves that way as an us?

EU: Well, I think that's a hard question. I feel like we're moving towards being a more equitable society and understanding that really beyond age as well, there was only effort in us. So I have hope in that statement. But I also think in terms of the art world, that what we're seeing now is that the largest cohort in the history of the world is growing old. And they are very powerful, the baby boomers, and they are also economically very powerful. So there is a chance that people who are over the age of 65, 70, 80, will start to recognize the work of their peers and put some of that power behind it. And maybe we can start changing our opinions of who is an artist and who isn't regardless of age.

CO: You went to see your father's work involved that he keeps. And he wanted to show you, I guess, kind of an inventory. You had a relative tell you that you had a responsibility to make a record of what he knows about the history of Canadian art of his time. What responsibility do you feel you have to your dad's work and his story?

EU: I feel like my dad is a tether to an earlier time in the history of art in Canada. And so the many times that I sat down with him to speak to him while I was writing the book, of course, we went beyond the parameters of what it was. Well, we almost always went beyond the parameters. And I think that that's really valuable information in terms of my own -- how I feel about my father's legacy and his art. I do feel a certain responsibility and a role certainly to carry that forward, and to be that person along with my siblings for my father. He's concerned about his legacy. He wants to know where his, you know, large paintings are going to end up and what is going to happen to his drawings and where they'll be housed and who will be able to see them. I think it's a little like when your adult children are finally settled, you can feel good. And he feels that way also about his art. And so I hope that I can play a role in kind of assuaging any concerns he might have about his legacy in that I will work for him for the rest of my life. And I think my children in turn, will do the same.

CO: What does he think of your book?

TN: Well, [chuckles] what's funny about that question is, so he read like an early version of the manuscript. And he was visiting me here in December, he spent the day with me. And I gave him the pages and he said he would underline the parts that he liked. And so I left him alone for a few hours. And it was a bit nerve wracking. I should have a photograph of my dad reading my manuscript. [Chuckles] I just let him go through it. And when he gave it back to me, the whole manuscript was underlined. [Laughter] So I don't know. He liked all of it, I guess. But if that's truly how he feels, it's hard to say. He's my dad so he's very supportive of my own art.

CO: I think that many many people will feel the same way who read your book Emily, and share that and probably underline everything as well. It's great to speak with you and to hear about Tony Urquhart from this point of view. I've known of his work and seen him for decades when he was back in the 70s and 60s in London, Ontario, and I followed him. And so to hear the story about his third act is quite wonderful. Thank you for that.

EU: Thank you so much.

CO: Take care.

EU: Thank you. You too.

CH: Emily Urquhart is the author of “The Age of Creativity”. She spoke with Carol last September, when it was published by House of Anansi Press as part of its "Walrus Books" collection. For more on their conversation, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

June 18, 2021 Episode Transcript

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