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The AIH Transcript for May 21, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Defence mechanisms. As a tenuous cease fire holds, a Hamas official defends its rocket attacks on Israel that killed civilians, saying it was the Israeli government that provoked the armed response.

CH: Counts and counter counts. Volunteers in Nicaragua are risking their jobs and freedom to share what they say is the country's real COVID-19 death toll. And their numbers are much higher than the government's.

CO: An uphill battle. An intensive care physician in Winnipeg tells us why Manitoba's COVID case counts have risen to their highest levels and what that means for the patients that he sees.

CH: Underground phenomenon. While waiting for the subway in New York, CBC cameraman Sean Conaboy saw a man attacking a woman and he ran headfirst toward them to save her.

CO: Like a lot of us, Scott Miller was just swamped at work. Unlike a lot of us, he and his team were literally swamped, just shy of setting a world record for fastest trip down the Mississippi River.

CH: And laying their curds on the table. Quebec's dairy industry wants to seek a special cultural designation for the majestic mess known as poutine -- a campaign we all support from the bottom of our heartburn. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that celebrates a dish we love from the cradle to the gravy.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Hamas official says ceasefire is only a temporary solution and won't last forever

Hamas Official

Guest: Basem Naim

CH: For the first time in 11 days, people in Gaza and southern Israel have been able to rest a bit easier. Last night, a cease fire came into effect between Israel and Hamas. According to Gaza's health ministry, more than 200 people were killed in Israeli air and artillery attacks, including 66 children. In Israel, 12 people were killed by rockets fired from Gaza into Israel. But today, there are already signs of new unrest. Israeli police used stun grenades on Palestinians throwing rocks outside Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Basem Naim is a member of Hamas and the head of its international relations office. We reached him in Gaza City.

CO: Mr. Naim, Hamas is claiming victory after these 11 days. What did Hamas accomplish?

BASEM NAIM: Thank you very much for inviting me. Hamas was not initiating this round of escalation. Hamas was only trying to defend the rights of our people in Sheikh Jarrah and in Al-Aqsa compound, where the Israelis have repeatedly attacked innocent worshippers and tried forcefully to evict Palestinians from their homes. One main element of this agreement of the treaty or the ceasefire agreement was to stop the continuous aggression against the mosque and the worshippers and to stop the eviction of the people in Sheikh Jarrah.

CO: But there were people, Palestinians and even Jewish Israelis, who were very angry about those very things: the police raids at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the planned evictions in East Jerusalem. There were people who were pursuing a peaceful protest against that. Why did you reject the idea of peaceful protest and begin your rocket fire?

BN: No, we were an inherent part of these peaceful protest and peaceful activities. I myself, I was in contact with a lot of diplomats, UN agencies, to attract an international intervention so that they can oblige the Israelis to stop their atrocities. But all these activities for more than one month, it was in vain.

CO: Does Hamas want to coexist with Israeli Jews?

BN: First of all, we don't...

CO: It's a yes or no. It's a yes or no question, sir. Sir, it's a yes or no question. Does Hamas want to coexist with Israel?

BN: Yes. Yes. Because you have two tales, Israel and Jews. We have said it a lot of times, we don't have any problems with any Jews. Our conflict is not against Jews or Christians or any religion. It is against occupation, first. Second in 2017, Hamas has issued its political charter and it is clear that Hamas accepting a state and 67 borders. The question is, is Israel officially ready to accept an independent sovereign state for Palestinians? What we are reading, what we are hearing, what we are watching, I am talking about the official position of the Israeli government, that there is no place for a Palestinian -- independent Palestinian -- state between the river and the sea. And this is the official position of the Likud Party.

CO: But, sir, can I just say...

BN: When can we have ourself.

CO: Understood. But you were not firing rockets at the Israeli government. You are not firing rockets at the IDF. You are firing rockets into neighbourhoods of Jewish civilians. You were firing rockets into Israeli towns. You were attempting to shoot them, but of course, they have the Iron Dome. But you were attempting to kill Jews, were you not, in these past 11 days. Was that not the intention of that rocket barrage?

BN: Why do you present it as if we are attacking Jews? By the way, we are the occupied people. We are the oppressed people. We are trying to defend ourselves. And this is our guaranteed right. You are guaranteeing the Israelis the right to defend themselves. At the same time, we have also the right to defend ourselves. Israelis have no right to besiege Gaza now for more than 15 years, to suffocate 2-million people, and then we call it self-defence. Palestinians have also the right to raise their voice against the oppression, including armed resistance. And you make a comparison between some people under occupation who are using very simple homemade projectiles with the strongest army in the region who have more than 200 nuclear weapons, all sophisticated military facilities and supported blindly by the United States, lastly, by 735-million dollars of more sophisticated, precise weapons to attack our families.

CO: Sir understood. I understand everything you're saying. But you were firing these rockets at neighbourhoods. You were firing these rockets at civilians in Israel. These are not military targets.

BN: And who are the targets of Israeli forces in Gaza?

CO: We understand and we put that question...

BN: You have seen it all...

CO: Sir we put that question to the Israelis. The same question we're putting to you.

BN: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who is the founder of Hamas, he said 30 years ago, two points -- first of all, our conflict is with Israeli occupation and it is not with Jews at all. By the way, Jewish communities who have suffered a lot in Europe in different ages, they found their escape only in Arabic and Islamic countries, in Morocco and Egypt, in Turkey and including Palestine. And we have lived side by side with each other, without any real conflict. The problem was when the Zionist movement tried to convert the presence of the Jewish community into an apartheid regime. We are ready immediately to stop our fighting and targeting any civil communities if Israel is stopping attacking our children, women, and the houses.

CO: Right. You're saying that you're defending yourselves, defending the Palestinians from the Israelis by firing these rockets. Who were you defending yourself from in those Israeli towns and cities you fired the rockets at?

BN: Because we are targeted 24 hours, seven days a week by the most highly sophisticated weapons. By the way, if you live in Gaza, not only during the attack, during the aggression over the last week, you can hear the drones 24 hours, seven days a week above your head in the sky, and they can target anyone at any time. And these provocations and killing attacks are the daily story. We are only trying to raise our voice. We are only trying to knock the doors of the biggest open air prison here in Gaza Strip. We cannot accept to die in silence, to die in peace. Either the siege have to be lifted, and immediately. Otherwise, the Israelis are creating the...

CO: Otherwise what? What will you do? Otherwise what? What are you saying that you're going to do?

BN: Yes. Otherwise, the Israelis are creating the ideal conditions, the best context for the repeated...look we are talking about a pure political conflict. If the root of this conflict are not tackled and fixed by ending the occupation, by ending the siege, by ending the aggression against our people in Sheikh Jarrah, by accepting and guaranteeing the rights of Palestinians, of independence, freedom and dignity, you have to prepare yourself or we have to prepare ourselves for the next escalation -- not because we want it, but because continuous suffocating the people in their existence in Gaza and in the West Bank. If they are not stopping these policies, they are creating the conditions for the next explosion.

CO: There are cities in Gaza, you know far better than I, they are in rubble today. You have hundreds of people who are dead in Gaza. You have thousands of people who have no homes. Their houses were destroyed by the Israeli assault. But you knew that would happen. You knew that if you fired rockets that Israel would respond with such force. Your people have no Iron Dome. They have no shelters. You knew there would be possibly these kinds of casualties. Does Hamas have to accept some responsibility for the state that Gaza is in today?

BN: But do you remember that Palestinians two years ago went to the fence in thousands every Friday peacefully, men and women and elderly to raise their voices against the siege?

CO: Yes, we know that sir. Do you have to accept...

BN: No -- by the way I have to leave my house because a person has been attacked by a rocket. I mean, my apartment. But have you read how many Palestinians died because they have been denied entrance or to the crossing to get treatment abroad? How many Palestinians died of malnutrition?

CO: I appreciate that, sir. I know....

BN: The choice is you have to die either peacefully, without any noise, or you have to die with Israeli sophisticated missiles.

CO: So what do you say to the Gaza families that are burying their loved ones today about that sacrifice?

BN: It is hard for me. But you can ask all the Palestinians here and you can see it also on TV that Palestinians know that the way to freedom and dignity, sometimes you have to pay the price. Unfortunately, this is the way to freedom, painful and expensive.

CO: And is that the message you have for those Gazan families who are burying their loved ones?

BN: No. We are living with them. And we have made a lot of tours today to the families who have lost their houses, who have lost their beloved, to be beside them, hugging them, trying to support them because we are part of this story. Someone who is watching from outside, we have also lost our houses, we have our lost our beloved people. We are not talking from outside. Without justice for the Palestinians, no peace can be achieved. We might achieve calm for one week, one month, one year. But without tackling the root of the problem, we will continue to witness every now and then a new round of escalation. And Israel will continue to cause or to be the cause of the instability, uncertainty in the region.

CO: What do you say then to Jews in Israel who do want to coexistence with the Palestinians, who do want to see that Palestinians have their own state but are afraid of Hamas and its intentions? What do you say to those Israelis?

BN: Why to be afraid? If we are...

CO: You've been killing them for the past 11 days, maybe that is part of the reason.

BN: Okay. No. They have to revolt or to protest against the regime. They have to revolt against their dictators or regimes or right-wing extremists who have spoilt the peaceful coexistence in Jerusalem? Again, I think the message of reassurance for all people who are really thinking of coexistence -- will Hamas say we are ready for our state and 67 borders, an independent, free democratic state with Jerusalem as the capital, with preserving the right of return for Palestine, where is the problem in this demand?

CO: Mr. Naim we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

BN: Thank you very much.

CH: Basim Naim is a member of Hamas and the head of its international relations office. We reached him in Gaza City. And you can find more on that story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Manitoba Covid Hotspot

Guest: Anand Kumar

CH: While many Canadian jurisdictions have been announcing roadmaps for reopening, one province is going against the grain in the worst possible way. As Manitobans head into the long weekend, they're doing so under new COVID-19 restrictions. Winnipeg Mayor Brian Bowman says the situation in the city's ICUs is so dire that Winnipeg needs military intervention. And Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister has called these the darkest days of the pandemic. Dr. Anand Kumar is an intensive care physician and infectious disease specialist in Winnipeg who says these are indeed dark days and that is partly the premier's fault. We reached Dr. Kumar in Winnipeg.

CO: Dr. Kumar, do you feel things are bad enough right now to call in the army, as Brian Bowman suggested today?

ANAND KUMAR: Absolutely. And I think they've just done that.

CO: And what do you think the army can do?

AK: Depends on how much manpower they can provide. I don't know what kind of manpower they have. I understand that the premier has asked for 50 ICU nurses, and 15 or 20 respiratory therapist, as well as another 50 contact tracers. If they can provide that, that would be a big help. That would allow them to open somewhere between 12 and 20 beds or so.

CO: Can you just paint us a picture of what's going on at the ICU at Winnipeg's Health Sciences Centre where you work?

AK: Well, we've opened up auxiliary ICUs, we have expanded into all available space, and we've asked our nurses to work two patients to one nurse, which is an extended ratio, it's normally one to one. So we've extended as much as possible to the detriment of our support staff. But it seems to be necessary at this moment.

CO: How does it compare with the other times, other peaks during this pandemic?

AK: So this is easily the worst that we've seen. We didn't come near to this level of cases in the second wave and that pushed us to the brink of failure. We're well past. We've moved a substantial number of patients out of the province and put some in paediatric ICU.

CO: What's your sense of the source of these infections of why there is this surge in Manitoba and Winnipeg?

AK: Well, it's the nature of the way that we've handled the virus in terms of having restrictions and then releasing them prematurely. I mean, all of this didn't need to happen. But Manitoba has used a strategy of basically allowing numbers to climb with incremental, modest responses until they start to threaten ICU capacity, and then they try to kind of damp it down. But the problem is that by then you're in exponential growth and you've got another three weeks before your ICU burden starts to flatten out, even if people respond to the restrictions. I don't think they're responding to these restrictions right now because the numbers are continuing to climb two weeks after the last set of restrictions, which in my opinion, were insufficient in any case.

CO: Why aren't they complying, do you think?

AK: I think they're tired of this roller coaster of ineffective half measures. I mean it's one thing for the province to say to do this once and then we'll keep it down. But it's another thing to say that, we can't keep it from yo-yoing. I mean, we can. We can prevent these surges. But the province has chosen a strategy that allows. And if you look at provinces that have chosen a better strategy, of maximum suppression strategy, like the Atlantic provinces, they have 15 fold less deaths, 15 fold less cases, and they have way less economic injuries. So I don't see any rationale for the approach that we've used except presumably a political one.

CO: And what do you mean a political one?

AK: Well, I presume that there are people pressuring the premier to keep things open from a business standpoint. But the data and the theory would suggest that a strategy of maximally suppressing these disease activity actually gives you not just 15 fold less deaths and cases, but it gives you substantially less economic harm.

CO: Premier Pallister, though, says the problem is because people haven't been obeying the regulations that exist. Is that true?

AK: Not to my experience. I mean, what I'm seeing in the ICU is that, yes, most of the people in the ICU currently have not been vaccinated, but most of them weren't eligible for vaccination at the time that they acquired their infection. Most of the people that I'm seeing seem to have been following the restrictions in terms of where they caught it. It's not like they're saying that they were at a party or anything. They seem to be catching it out in the community in doing activities that are allowed.

CO: And the premier is also saying that the solution is to get everyone vaccinated. He said he is trying to give that incentive, wants to get more vaccines possibly from the United States. Is that the answer, getting everyone vaccinated?

AK: You know, the time that it's going to take to get vaccines and get everybody vaccinated is at least six or eight weeks. We can't sustain this for six or eight weeks. There's no way to sustain this level of stress on ICU. I mean, we don't have enough people now. We don't have enough beds now. The only way to get this under control at this moment -- and I'm not happy about it -- but the only way to do it at this point is probably a hard lockdown, shelter in place order, shutting down all non-essential businesses, really minimising social interactions and enforcing it. That's the only way that we're going to get this under control. We're already triaging ICU access. High risk patients that we used to bring down to the ICU because they were so unstable that we thought that they might deteriorate imminently -- we don't have room for them right now. Now, they don't need life support, but they should be in ICU in normal circumstances. We can't bring them down right now because we don't have the beds. But the next stage, if things continue to get worse, we'll have to actually triage life support. And we haven't had to do that yet. And I pray we don't have to do that. But if these numbers continue to rocket up the way we are, that's definitely on the table.

CO: Dr. Kumar, I wish you strength. I know you're very tired. You've put in some very long days. And so I appreciate very much that you found time for us. So thank you for that.

AK: My pleasure.

CH: Dr. Anand Kumar is an intensive care physician and infectious disease specialist who works at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg.

[Music: Calm Music]

NYC Subway Rescue

Guest: Sean Conaboy

CH: In the surveillance video, you can see the man walk up to a woman on a New York City subway platform and stab her. And then seemingly out of nowhere, Sean Conaboy is there. Mr. Conaboy is a cameraman for the CBC in New York City. And now he's the good Samaritan who tackled a man with a knife. We reached Sean Conaboy in New York City.

CO: Sean, what were you doing Wednesday night before things went sideways?

SEAN CONABOY: Carol, I was working for the CBC as a cameraman in Times Square, doing live shots for the opening of New York -- May 19th, COVID lockdown is over, and mask mandate is over, and New York is open for fully vaccinated people and everyone should be happy to come out and enjoy it.

CO: So you went into Union Square Station not to film -- you were heading there to your own place.

SC: Exactly right. And the strangest thing about it is that I am rarely ever in that station. There was a subway rerouting that night because of trackwork and it was later in the night now than normally I would get home. That is what brought me to that station at that time.

CO: What was the first thing that you noticed?

SC: The first thing I noticed was an individual who was dressed in black head to toe and masked, of course. And he was dressed a little too generously for the weather. It was about 30 Celsius. I didn't really think that was appropriate at that time, but okay whatever, to each their own. And he had been casing, eyeballing a few people. He stood a little too close to me and we in fact did lock eyes briefly, he blinked first, which I took as a small victory, saying, yeah okay, keep going, whatever you have in mind, not me, not now, whatever it is.

CO: And what did he have in mind?

SC: That I didn't know. But it turned out that he appeared to have murder in mind. The knife that he produced, and the attempt to continually assault the victim is unmistakable.

CO: After you made eye contact with him, he left down, he went further down the platform. When did you notice that he was attacking someone? How did you notice that?

SC: I was looking up the track to see if my train was due to arrive. And I noticed a woman and the next thing you know or the next thing that I saw was her get jerked back violently, completely now out of my line of vision. And I heard a scream. And to my horror that was followed in rapid succession with a knife. Like I said, it was a fairly substantial knife with a handle and about a five inch blade from where I was standing, and it was used in a sweeping arcing circular motion, as if you'd see it in one of those horror movies from the 80s. And I knew immediately that this woman was being assaulted and was in severe and grave danger and I ran to it.

CO: What did you do?

SC: In the blink of an eye, I was on his back and tackled him and we went to the ground. And at some point very soon after that, the victim escaped his grasp.

CO: But he still had the knife, right?

SC: He still had the knife. I didn't see it, but I understood him to still have that knife, yes. And the reason why I did what I did in that manner is because I knew that if I were face to face with him, now, I'm a potential victim because he's got the knife, I have nothing.

CO: So other people stepped in, did anyone get the knife?

SC: Well, after we struggled for a little while, we ended up turning the opposite direction. And like I said, I did my very best to keep his back toward my face. And at one point, I know I had him prone laying on the platform. He's still struggling. And I heard the knife hit the concrete. And at some point immediately after that, a person, another passenger kicked the knife clear. And I did hear somebody say, "I got'em, I got'em, I got'em." And I believe it was at that point was the one time I did take my eye off the assailant. And I look back and there was someone who at that point had pinned down his ankles.

CO: At what time did the police arrive?

SC: In, I don't know, the blink of an eye. 30 seconds-45 seconds after that knife had been kicked clear.

CO: All right. So they took him into custody. And what about the woman? Were you able to find out if she was okay?

SC: Yeah, I'd only gotten second hand knowledge of her status throughout the last two days until this morning when she very kindly and generously called me. And she said something to the effect that, you know, I've been in New York 30 years, I knew enough to not be distracted, you know, but it happened. And I said there's no way for you to have second thoughts about that because you would have had to have been on a heightened sense of alert because of him. And I don't know how many other people did, I was maybe one who did.

CO: It's interesting that you were there because you were getting pictures of how the city is coming back to normal and that people riding the subway like they used to. And such a strange thing to happen in the midst of that.

SC: Right. It was like an advertisement for that. I mean, we had done the whole day talking about New York's great rebirth after COVID. And, yeah, the subway had a fair number of people in it. It wasn't rush hour busy, but it was pretty busy. And it's refreshing to see as a person who remained here to see such life and vibrancy.

CO: Well Sean, I'm glad you were there for that woman, that's for sure. And I really appreciate hearing this story from you. Thank you.

SC: Thank you. Thank you Carol.

CH: Sean Conaboy is a freelance cameraman for the CBC. We reached him in New York City.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 2: Nicaragua Covid Numbers

Nicaragua Covid Numbers

Guest: Voice

CH: On paper, Nicaragua is the safest place to be in Central America right now. Its neighbours, Honduras and Costa Rica, have had thousands of deaths due to COVID-19. Nicaragua's official death toll is less than 200, except it's really not, according to a group of community volunteers known as the Citizens Observatory. For months, they've been publishing unauthorised COVID-19 updates with case counts that dramatically exceed those from government agencies. Many of them are simply concerned citizens doing their best to cobble together accurate data, some are healthcare workers, and all are contributing at great personal risk. One of the doctors involved agreed to speak with us from Nicaragua. We are withholding her name and her exact location for her protection.

CO: Doctor, first of all, just how much of a gap is there between the official COVID-19 numbers in Nicaragua and the numbers that your group, the Citizens Observatory, is compiling?

VOICE: Well, our figures reached some 14,000. And the government recognised less than 8,000. So double of their figures is our numbers regarding cases. But when it comes to mortality, they recognise only 178. And our figures reach more than 3000 Nicaraguan people.

CO: How do you know? How are you collecting your numbers, especially of the deaths?

VOICE: Well, our group is a volunteer community surveillance group. And when all the situation started, the rumour is started going around that there is one case, there is two cases, three, four and so on. So people reported and then our volunteers in the community, they will go and check whether the information is true or not, because it is only the ministry of health who's allowed to give information on public health issues.

CO: So when you say that there's 3000 deaths and yet the government is saying 178 -- now, if you're getting this information from your community-based reporting, but it's not official numbers. So do you think that the 3000 is the correct number or do you think there's actually maybe even more?

VOICE: No, it is actually even more because the official data from the government -- there's a data collection system where you can estimate the excess mortality rate. And in Nicaragua, it is more than 9000 deaths per year last year. So we are getting only 30 percent of what's happening.

CO: These are so many people who are dying of COVID. And so how could it be concealed? How are they even disposing of the bodies? How are people getting them buried or anything if the government is not acknowledging that these people have died?

VOICE: During the first wave that was May-July last year, there were a lot of what we call express funerals -- when the hospitals brought the person, that brought the body, to the cemeteries at midnight, 3:00 in the morning without any ceremony, etc.. And there were also people taken to the cemetery without their relatives knowing. People were admitted to the hospital, may be a general ward, moved to the intensive care unit and then they will give you a body in a locked coffin. And there were people opening the coffins because they were not sure that the relatives was in the coffin. People start to say, "We would rather die at home," which means I will infect my whole family, because somebody will have to take care of me.

CO: Can you give some explanation as to why the government is going to such lengths to hide the fact that so many people are dying of COVID-19 in Nicaragua?

VOICE: Honestly, I have no clue. I know and I respect the people at the ministry of health, but the decision here is not within the ministry of health. And in May last year, the government said that Nicaragua -- as a poor country with a weak economy, if we were not in the possibility to stop the country or to lockdown the country because the economy will kill people. They are saying that people is not dying of COVID-19. And I mean, I'm sorry, but we cannot have an explanation.

CO: This is all very alarming. And I know that we have agreed not to reveal your name because you are very concerned about your safety. What are the consequences for you and the others in the health profession who are making this public, that you are part of the Citizens Observatory? What are the consequences for those who are doing this?

VOICE: Well, the Citizens Observatory is a volunteer based group and most of us are not health workers, but yes, some of us are health workers. Some of us work within the ministry of health system. One of the first situation lived by a number of colleagues was that they got fired. Some others have been accused of spreading information that is not accurate, and that is a penalty according to the Nicaraguan law. That's the reason why we don't report cases. We report suspected cases because otherwise we can be prosecuted and you might be taken into prison.

CO: Doctor, I'm so sorry this is the situation for you, and I hope that this interview doesn't have consequences for you, but I do appreciate you telling us what's happening in Nicaragua. Thank you.

VOICE: You're welcome.

CO: Please take care.

VOICE: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: One of the volunteers, a doctor, involved in a citizen led effort to chronicle the true toll of COVID-19 in Nicaragua. We're withholding her name for her safety.

[Music: Bass Music]

The Linda Lindas

CH: The Linda Lindas have no time for Racist, Sexist Boy -- they have made that very clear. The punk rock band is made up of 10-year-old Mila, 13-year-oldEloise, and 14-year-old Lucia, who are all cousins, and their friend, 16-year-old Bella. And frankly, they are amazing. They've opened for Bikini Kill and recorded two songs for the Netflix movie Moxie. But a recent performance at the L.A. Public Library has put them on the main stage. Earlier this month, the band did a 30-minute set to kick off Asian-American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, and their performance of one song in particular had the likes of Tom Morello from Rage Against The Machine singing their praises. Here's drummer, Mila, introducing the song

MILA: [SOUNDCLIP: A little while before we went into lockdown a boy in my class came up to me and said that his dad told him to stay away when Chinese people. After I told him that I was Chinese, he backed away from me. Eloise and I wrote this song based on that experience. So this is about him and all the other racist, sexist boys in this world! (COUNTING THE BAND IN) 1! 2! 3! 4! (MUSIC PLAYS: THE LINDA LINDAS "Racist, Sexist Boys")]

CH: This is The Linda Lindas with their song Racist, Sexist Boys. It's our Sound of the Day.

[Music: Racist, Sexist Boys by The Linda Lindas]

Mississippi Fastest Canoe

Guest: Scott Miller

CH: On May the 4th, canoeists Scott Miller and three of his fellow paddlers set out from northern Minnesota hoping the fourth would be with them. Over the course of the next 17 and a half days, they planned to canoe the length of the Mississippi River, arriving at its southernmost point sometime today, and they plan to do it in world record breaking time. Well, Scott Miller is in New Orleans this evening, but he arrived without his record and he's feeling somewhat lucky to have arrived at all.

CO: Scott, this journey did not end as you'd hoped. Can you just tell us what happened last night?

SCOTT MILLER: Well, we went down in a blaze of glory. [Chuckles] About 20 minutes or 30 minutes before the canoe sank, I was coming to terms in my own mind with the fact that I didn't think it was safe to continue. And I was imagining how I was going to have the conversation with the team. And I was hoping other people would be on the same page. But then the Mississippi reared its head and made the decision very obvious and easy.

CO: Okay. I guess a few details -- I mean, so were you swamped? Was the canoe swamped or was it capsized? What exactly happened?

SM: So the winds were extremely unusual for this area. And it was out of the southeast, which is the general direction of travel of the river, so it was in our faces. And the waves were so big that for us to proceed down the river and keep the boat upright was a continual challenge. And as we reached this lower river where there's fleeted barges and ocean-going vessels in the high winds and at night was incredibly difficult. And so we're just trying to keep the boat upright and we're sort of navigating the line between the fastest water, which is what we want, but that's also the most dangerous water. And so we're sort of constantly dodging between the slower-safer water on the edge of the river and the faster-scarier water in the middle. And then at around 9:00 p.m. last night, I had just moved into the stern for my shift. I was steering the boat and my teammates were screaming at me from the canoe in front of me. One was saying, you know with the tone of 'We're going to die if you don't go left right now, you have to go left.' And the other one was screaming at me the exact same tone and saying, 'We're going to die if you don't go right.' And then the bowman, Perry Whiteaker, my teammate says, "There's too much water up here, we have to call the support boat over right now." So they manoeuvred over and it was tricky getting next to them without injuring ourselves. But we somehow managed to sidle up next to them and grab hold and the waves were tossing the two boats up and down enough that our arms needed to really be a foot or two longer. So our arms were getting jerked from our bodies and we were struggling to hold onto the boat. And the boat was leaning over onto us and the canoe is in danger of slipping underneath this boat or getting trapped underneath. And we're at grave risk of getting injured. And after some number of minutes, everybody instinctively, it was just over like a ten second span, threw any gear that we could out of the boat. And then at the last possible second in one, almost a choreographed moment, I mean, the four of us threw ourselves onto the support boat and the captain said, "Some of you have got to get to the other side," -- because we were listing way over to the starboard side. So I threw myself across the back deck, across coolers. And as I lay there, looking out into the massive waves and then the industrial lights that make everything confusing to see, I could see some of our dry bags floating and I could see the canoe kind of get quickly away and under water. Then we got all the way to shore and we had to stay there for another five or six hours until daybreak because the surf was so high, the experienced sea captain couldn't even get us to safety until the next morning.

CO: Good heavens. So that was it. That was your your effort to, I guess, compete with the other boat for the world record for getting down the Mississippi. Do you think you would have made it, you would have broken the record or you would have beat the guy who went before you a few weeks ago?

SM: We had the time splits from their team. So we knew exactly at any given ramp on the river, we knew exactly how far ahead or behind we were. And we were running about two hours ahead of pace. We had a real, a very legitimate shot at it, but we just couldn't catch a break.

CO: I hate to ask this, but how are you and your teammates feeling today?

SM: Well, I got a little sleep on that little houseboat, that little cabin boat that had followed us all the way from Minneapolis. And it was a true joy last night to sit in that boat with the three guys that had been so wonderful to us the whole time and had been such professionals, and had provided us such a huge measure of safety and support. It was nice to actually get to hang out with them a little bit. And I was worried that my personal disappointment in not setting the record might be sort of overwhelming or that all of these support we had from our support team and from the public that people's disappointment would be hard to handle. But that hasn't been the case. Everyone has understood that we gave it our all and that we had an epic adventure. And so now that I've gotten a little bit more sleep in the hotel and stuff, I'm feeling very pleased. And we had plans to sort of celebrate with our support crew and thank them for everything they've done for us for the next two days in New Orleans. And we still get to do that.

CO: The man who went before you -- I guess, it's still unofficial -- breaking of the world record for getting down the Mississippi this KJ Millhone. And have you talked to him? Has he offered any words to you for, I guess, not succeeding?

SM: I have. He's texted me an incredibly kind text and just expressing his admiration for our efforts and admiration for the competition that the two teams engaged in as friendly rivals and expressing his happiness that we're all safe.

CO: That Mississippi River, she is a tough one, isn't she?

SM: She is. She is. I knew it would be tough, but I really truly did not think it would be quite that challenging. We filled the boat with water on three different occasions and overcame those challenges each time, but the fourth time was unrecoverable.

CO: Well, Scott, I'm glad that you're okay and so is everybody, everyone got out safely. And thanks for telling us the story.

SM: You're so welcome.

CH: Scott Miller is the leader of the Mississippi Speed Record Team, which ended its attempt at a world record breaking paddle last night. We reached him in New Orleans.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Poutine

CH: In 1991, CBC journalist Steve Langford explored a culinary explosion occurring in our country and like the people contributing the gravy to that explosion, he laid it on pretty thick.

STEVE LANGFORD: [SOUNDCLIP: Three o'clock in the morning in the town of Joliette, Quebec, at a place called Chez Henri King of the Potato. What are hundreds of people doing here in the middle of the night? Excuse him, he's chowing down on poutine, dished up here every night in industrial quantities. As we will attempt to show in this report, poutine is not just some fast food fad. This is more than simply a tale of junk food run amuck. Poutine goes deep into Quebec's psyche, evoking this province's simple roots, its insecurities, its sense of humour.]

CH: Well, by that point, poutine was obviously still a novelty to Anglos. But in Quebec, it was already a phenomenon. And now, 30 years later, a group representing the dairy industry in Quebec has announced that it's time to consider some kind of official designation for poutine, sort of like the various foods that have been granted intangible cultural heritage status by UNESCO, which include Neapolitan pizza, Korean kimchi, a Malawian porridge called Nsima, and something referred to as the gastronomic meal of the French, amongst other food traditions. Now, poutine, incidentally, means mess. And maybe if Quebec's dairy industry gets some official designation, the dish will be less of a hot mess in other places. For example, in 2017, Spencer Buell, a Canadian journalist who writes for Boston Magazine, got tough with his adopted city. He wrote an article with the headline: Boston Has A Poutine Problem. Carol spoke with him about some of the worst messes he'd been served. And a warning: some of what he describes is very gross.

CO: [SOUNDCLIP: Spencer, what's the problem with Boston's poutine?

SPENCER BUELL: Well it seems like for some reason just as poutine is starting to catch on in Boston, instead of giving Bostonians a really good quality traditional poutine, restaurants have gone in a really disturbing direction and have given us some really odd versions of this dish that I love so much. Now for example there is one restaurant they do this thing called 50 states of poutine which is where they feature another version of poutine every week that's based on one of the American states. And when they featured the great state of Ohio, their version of routine was a pile of fries with a big handful of spaghetti and chili and grated cheddar cheese. And it's really a problem.

CO: And this is not the only place that has this poutine challenge. You make a list. It seems odd that you actually have to point out that poutine is not soup.

SB: Right. And that was this one restaurant that the way that they serve their protein is just this metal bowl that looks filled to the brim with the gravy and it has a little potato gnocci floating in it and some flecks of cheese. And my problem with what's going on in Boston right now is that when they see poutine on a menu, basically the word has come to mean just a pile of stuff with other stuff on it. So long as there's a little bit of cheese inside. And so people just think of poutine as a category and not as a dish with origins and that's worth celebrating.

CO: But what does the word actually mean? Doesn't poutine actually mean kind of like a mess.

SB: Right. It just means like a big mess.

CO: So I mean–

SB: Which I mean, fair enough, these are certainly messy that’s for sure.

CO: I mean so they're just maybe reinventing it. Is there anything really wrong with that?

SB: Well my problem is, you know I've come to love traditional poutine and I just wish that Bostonians would get a chance to appreciate it as much as I do. And not for example you know, when they think about poutine, think about something like what's offered at Fenway Park, which is a lobster poutine which is covered in lobster bisque. I think I think people should at least understand the baseline of what protein is before they're exposed to some of these horrific alternatives.]

CH: From our archives, that was Carol speaking with Spencer Buell, staff writer for Boston Magazine and transplanted Canadian about Boston's poutine problem in June of 2017.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Part 3: Scientists have solved the mystery of where baby sea turtles go after they hatch

Turtle Tracker

Guest: Kate Mansfield

CH: Turtle experts call them: the lost years. After green sea turtles hatched the scuttle across the sand, jump into the Atlantic Ocean, and disappear over the horizon, both literally and scientifically, scientists have never really known where the sea turtles spend the next few years of their lives. But Kate Mansfield now has a pretty good idea. She's an associate professor of biology at the University of Central Florida and the lead author of a new study on how the turtles navigate toward the Sargasso Sea. We reached her in Orlando, Florida.

CO: Kate, can you just explain to us, first of all, what are these so-called lost years of green sea turtles? Why has it been such a mystery as to what happens to them?

KATE MANSFIELD: The sea turtle lost years are referred to the time from which the little baby turtles hatch out from their nesting beaches and then they just disappear from our radar. They are in the open ocean. And we don't know much about where they go, what they're doing, how they're interacting with their environment. And if we're working with these endangered and threatened and imperilled animals, we need to know this information so we can better plan for conservation efforts and policies to help protect them.

CO: Sargasso Sea is is an almost mythical place, isn't it? Can you just describe what and where it is?

KM: The Sargasso Sea is typically bounded by borders that are currents, so it doesn't have an actual land border, which is really kind of interesting. And it also makes it a little tricky in terms of defining exactly where it is and also protecting it. But if you imagine the North Atlantic, it's a fairly large space. There's a current that runs up the Atlantic Coast called the Gulf Stream. And then up towards Canada and Nova Scotia, it'll take an eastward turn where it becomes another current called the North Atlantic Current. And it goes over towards the Azores, where it then becomes the Canary Current. And then down south, it'll make a westward track above the equator. And so the Sargasso Sea is found kind of in that western area over towards the United States that surrounds Bermuda. And it's a fairly large area, but it's also hard to define because of these currents that aren't necessarily static.

CO: Why do you think the turtles go there? What is there that draws them?

KM: The turtles are likely there in part due to the namesake of the Sargasso Sea: sargassum. And sargassum is this brown floating algae that wraps up together with other bits of the same algae. And it potentially provides these young turtles with a warm and safe and food-filled habitat where they can perch on top of the floating mats of sargassum. Visual predators that are swimming around underneath, like sharks, can't see them very well. A lot of the turtle species are cryptically coloured, so they blend in really well with this floating brown algae and there's plenty of food available to them. It's also quite warm because the algae is brown and it traps some of the water, so it heats up a little bit. And for a cold-blooded animal that needs to grow quickly and outgrow the jaws of sharks and other predators, it's a pretty good place for them to grow up.

CO: Sounds like a great place to hang out during your gap years.

KM: [Chuckles] Exactly.

CO: And what do you know about that environment? I mean, given there's so much change going on in our seas and land everywhere. Is this sargassum, is it healthy? Is it sustainable for the turtles?

KM: I hope so. I know that it is a fairly common habitat, at least in the North Atlantic. I'm on the learning curve when it comes to sargassum itself. And I think that at least in some of the areas where I'm studying offshore and that would be in the Gulf of Mexico, which is not in the Sargasso Sea, but that biomass of sargassum in the Gulf of Mexico may transport eventually into the Sargasso Sea through the various currents in this area. And we do see a lot of plastic. We do see a lot of things that little turtles may mistake as food items. And some of our offshore work in the Gulf of Mexico, we do collect turtles there and we put tags on them and study the heck out of them. And we get very excited when they give us a poop sample because we're able to tell a little bit of information about their diet. And unfortunately, most of the turtles where we do collect faecal sample have plastics in their faeces. So plastics are definitely an issue. And we do know that there is a bit of a plastic garbage patch in the Sargasso Sea area and the North Atlantic as well.

CO: So as you study the heck out of them, what's your assessment? How healthy are the turtles? How strong are they? What's their food supply? What is the sort of report card you can give us on the green sea turtles?

KM: It's complex. So the study where we put the very first satellite tags on these little turtles, those guys were lab reared. We reared them to a size in a laboratory where we could then put a satellite tag safely on them without sinking them. And so that gave us the first glimpse of where they may be going. Some of the work that I do in my lab, we have a nesting beach, we see about 30 percent of all of the green sea turtle nesting in the state of Florida, which gets most of the sea turtle nesting in the North Atlantic. We're seeing an increase in numbers of nests. And in some of our coastal habitats, we're seeing a potential increase in green turtles foraging as juveniles, which may reflect these larger and larger numbers of nests that we get every year on the nesting beaches. So the green turtles, I think population wise, in the North Atlantic, at least within US waters, seem to be doing quite well. I know that another major nesting beach in Costa Rica has not seen the same trajectories and nest numbers over the years as we have. But as far as the little green turtles go, if they can survive to maturity, we're seeing large numbers on our nesting beaches, so that's exciting. But they have to wait for about 25-plus years before they can reach maturity and then contribute back to their population by nesting and breeding and everything else.

CO: Kate, thank you for this. Thank you for giving us this report card on green sea turtles. I appreciate it. Thank you.

KM: And thank you very much for your interest in green turtles and having me speak with you today.

CH: Kate Mansfield is an associate professor of biology at the University of Central Florida. We reached her in Orlando. And you can find more on that story, including photos on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: String Music]

Lee Evans

CH: Lee Evans was very very fast. And when it counted at the 1968 Olympics, he was the fastest.

VOICE: [SOUNDCLIP: Lee Evans going over. In the lead. Going for the final current. (Crowd cheers) Emmett Taylor. And Lee Evans is the winner.]

CH: The sound of American sprinter, Lee Evans, breaking Olympic and world records and winning the 400 metre gold medal in Mexico City. But running wasn't the only way Mr. Evans made history that summer. He was also part of a group of African-American Olympians who defied officials by raising their fists in Black power salutes from atop podiums. He trained alongside Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who were famously expelled from the 1968 games for that gesture, a move that reportedly prompted Mr. Evans to consider withdrawing from his own subsequent races. But he says John Carlos encouraged him to run and to win and to raise his own fist in the air, all of which he did. Lee Evans died on Wednesday. He was 74 years old. While that group of Black athletes was famous for their political activism and solidarity, they were also fierce competitors. And in 1967, Mr. Evans told the CBC about a competitive tactic they sometimes used on each other, one he referred to as selling wolf tickets.

LEE EVANS: [SOUNDCLIP: It's like before the race, a couple of days before the race, you might be talking to one your opponents and you might tell them how good you feel and how you think, "I'll win the race with my best performance," -- all this stuff. This is selling wolf tickets. And Matthews, he is my roommate, he's my main competition in the 400 metres. We sell wolf tickets to each other in the week. But the day of the race, we sort of cool it. You know, we didn't say too much each other. At least I didn't say too much to him. But he was still trying to sell wolf tickets to me. And I used a little psychology on him. By me not saying anything, I think I got to him more than he did to me. But he kept telling me he's going to beat me.

JACK TURNBULL: So there's this constant play back and forth.

LEE EVANS: Yes, it is. And especially in your opponent that you don't know -- it's easy to sell wolf tickets to him, you know he is going to look at you. And another thing, I know I got a guy pretty well psyched if I get in front of him, about 10 yards in front of him. I know he sees me. I do a certain exercise, you know, something that he maybe hasn't saw before, maybe he's seen before but maybe he has an injury in his warmup, and I do it and look back and he'll be doing it -- the same exercise. And I know -- I did this myself, do an exercise that I saw some other guy do.

JACK TURNBULL: This almost amounts to superstition. If you see one guy doing one thing, you feel that if you don't do it, then maybe that will be the reason that he'll come out ahead.

LEE EVANS: This is very true, you think about that. Once I got on the line and I lift my knees real high and hit my kneed my chest twice with both legs. This isn't something that too many guys do because I just -- I don't know, I somehow just started doing it myself and everybody else started doing it.]

CH: Olympian and activist Lee Evans speaking with the CBC's Jack Turnbull on Soundings in 1967. Mr. Evans died on Wednesday. He was 74 years old.

[Music: Banjo Music]

Baseball Card Collection

Guest: Nancy Newman

CH: Nancy Newman says no one loved collecting more than her husband, Tom. And that passion is made extremely clear by the amazing collection of sports cards and memorabilia that he left behind. Thomas Newman was a Florida neurologist. He died earlier this year of COVID-19 complications at 73. And next month, his collection will go up for sale. California's Memory Lane auctions has valued it at over 20-million dollars US, with one Babe Ruth card alone expected to fetch millions and break a record. We reached Nancy Newman in Tampa, Florida.

CO: Nancy, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your husband.

NANCY NEWMAN: Thank you very much.

CO: What do these cards mean to him? How much joy did your husband get from this collection?

NN: [Chuckles] It was one of his favourite things in life. I mean, I knew him for 20 years, we were married for 17, and he enjoyed it every day that I knew him. It was so cute. He called them his "Paper babies." He was always searching for a better one and he would get them out and play with them. He was a great collector.

CO: Now, I've seen a U-Haul truck full of boxes. How many cards did he have?

NN: Oh he had thousands and thousands. That U-Haul truck, that's a really funny picture. The first truck they got, it was so heavy that it kind of sunk down and they had to take everything out of that truck to get a bigger one. And then, of course, they had JP's Surburban for the real valuable cards. It took them days and days and days to get them out of his office and our house. But now they're all in California.

CO: I mean, the sheer volume alone is really impressive. But it's these gems, right? These are really treasured cards.

NN: Yes, very rare cards and some gems, like you said.

CO: Can you tell us about some? The Babe Ruth card, I guess in particular.

NN: You know, I don't have a lot of technical knowledge about his cards. I knew that he had a coveted Babe Ruth card, that he had the best in the world and that lived here for a long time. We were very careful not to let anybody know that it lived here, you know, like JP and a few other people knew we had it. And occasionally he'd be approached about whether he would sell it. He would never sell any of his good cards. He would sell cards only if he had a better card of the same card. He was a true collector. He didn't care about the money. It was the glory for him. He really enjoyed building a wonderful, deep, rich collection.

CO: You mentioned JP -- and that's JP Cohen, I believe.

NN: Yes JP Cohen from Memory Lane, yes.

CO: And he said in a quote this 1933 Babe Ruth card is "the finest known of its kind," and he expects it to break the record for any sports card and fetch as much as 5.2 million dollars.

NN: Right, right. No, he had two or three really rare ones. And he had some beautiful cards also of value, but not the two or three that we're talking about just with these brilliant colours. And they were so old. And it was amazing to me how colour could stay so strong for so long.

CO: And they came with a stick of gum. [Laughter]

NN: [Laughter] Yes, some of them did. Exactly. There were some larger cards, that turkey red series that were just gorgeous in terms of colour and everything. They probably didn't come with the stick of gum. But I remember the ones that came with a stick of gum. [Chuckles] I used to collect them too.

CO: And your husband certainly would have remembered that too, because he started to collect when he was a kid, right?

NN: He did, yes. Like everybody else's mother, they threw them out when he went to college.

CO: I read that. She threw out all his baseball cards that he had been collecting since he was ten

NN: Umm hmm (in agreement). When he was an adult and out of medical school and residency and came back to Tampa to practise, his mother would actually go to card shows and help him with his booth or whatever.

CO: because he tried to rebuild that, I guess he has rebuilt that collection that his mom threw out.

NN: Yes. Laughs] He seriously rebuilt it. Yes. There wasn't a baseball team or baseball player that he didn't know things about. He had an amazing mind and he loved to put it to use with his collecting.

CO: He travelled a lot to do the collecting. Tell us a bit about how often he was on the road.

NN: Well, once a year we would go to the Nationals. And he was like a little boy getting excited. It was the best time of the year for him. Until COVID came, we went every year. The first few years I'd actually go to the show with him, but it was mostly me just tagging along, I really didn't know much about it. So after that, he would bring a friend who's also a collector from Tampa. And the wives, we would enjoy the city. [Dog barks in background]

CO: And your husband, amongst many other things you mentioned that he did, he was a doctor. And you mentioned...

NN: He was a very fine neurologist. You know, everybody loved him, his patients. And they're grieving like I am. [Dog barks in background] He was the kind of doctor that other doctors would send their family.

CO: Sounds like your dog misses him too.

NN: I know. I'm sorry. I had to get her a kitty to take her mind off Tom.

CO: And your husband died of complications from COVID.

NN: Yes, he did. Very very sad.

CO: Oh, I am sorry.

NN: The world lost a great person.

CO: And he's getting all this attention and for his collection. What would he think of all this hullabaloo about this collection?

NN: As quiet as he was about his collection, and part of that was he didn't ever want to sell it, so he didn't really care if anybody knew about it and for security purposes he didn't want a lot of people know about it, but he was a huge fan. He loved to do a solo with his music. He's probably looking down very excited about all the attention. It's exciting that collectors all over the world now are going to have the opportunity to have some of these cards. You know, they're so rare and it's going to be nice for the collecting world.

CO: A lot of them probably knew your husband.

NN: Oh, yes, many of them did, yes. But they had no idea how serious his collection was.

CO: They're in for a surprise. [Laughs]

NN: [Laughs] Yeah, they're just starting to get it now.

CO: Nancy, again, I'm sorry for your loss, but I appreciate speaking with you about your husband. Thank you.

NN: Thank you very much.

CH: Nancy Newman is in Tampa, Florida. Her husband, Thomas' baseball card collection is expected to fetch millions at an auction starting next month.

[Music: Piano Music]

Moose in pool

CH: In case you were unaware, Ontario is in lockdown. Pool parties are not allowed. But there are always those who ignore the rules, like the unexpected visitor who brazenly plunged into the pool at a home just outside Sudbury, Ontario. Kelsey Heikkila owns that home. She told CBC Radio what happened.

KELSEY HEIKKILA: [SOUNDCLIP: So I was inside. I just set up my kids with their afternoon sessions online and then I could hear a large bang in front of my house. And before I can get up to check that, I heard several bangs out the back and then a bunch of splashing in the pool. Now, I know our pool is not open right now, but my kids were inside, so I was kind of like, well, who is in the pool? And it turned out to be a moose.

JONATHAN PINTO: So your backyard is fenced?

KELSEY HEIKKILA: Yes, I have a six foot fence around my whole backyard.

JONATHAN PINTO: Okay so you heard these noises, you went and looked in the backyard and tell me what you saw.

KELSEY HEIKKILA: Well it kind of looked like a horse, and then it turned upside and I could see a really long nose. And I'm like, holy crap, it looks like a donkey. But then my common sense kind of kicked in once the panic was over and I was like, oh wow it's a moose.

JONATHAN PINTO: How big of a moose are we talking about here?

KELSEY HEIKKILA: They said it was like a yearling. She was big enough that she could keep her head above water and there was maybe five feet of water. And so, like, her neck and her head were still out. So she was the big girl.

JONATHAN PINTO: And she obviously hopped over the fence to get to your pool.

KELSEY HEIKKILA: Yeah. Yeah, she bunny hopped it, apparently.

JONATHAN PINTO: Oh man. So was the moose making any noises this whole time?

KELSEY HEIKKILA: No, she was super calm. The only time she made noises was when they were throwing the lines into the pool to drain the water. She got a little agitated and threw up her front paws and then she would make what sounded like a cow noise almost. They had guys here with shotguns in the event that she got out and charged somebody because it did draw quite a crowd. And then it was a matter of just getting the pool pumped down .once the pool was pumped down so that they could safely tranquillise her without her drowning. They did that and kind of floated her towards the shallow end. Somebody kept her nose above water with like a dog catcher pole. And then once they were sure she was out, the guys just hopped in the pool and kind of shimmied her up a ladder system.

JONATHAN PINTO: So any idea what the moose is up to now, where it is?

KELSEY HEIKKILA: Well, they actually followed up with me last night, around 9:00, and they said that she was safely released into the bush -- I'm not sure where, but, yeah, she's safe. She came through because they were concerned with the anaesthesia and she was stressed. They never know how they're going to react. But I guess she pulled through and she's back on her way.

JONATHAN PINTO: What did you kind of take away from this experience, Kelsey?

KELSEY HEIKKILA: Well, they can jump really high. You know, don't agitate moose. The guy chasing it in the vehicle, that's what all started this. They are wildlife, right, we're on their property. They were on their territory. And we just kind of have to learn to live with them.]

CH: That was Kelsey Heikkila Garson, Ontario, speaking to CBC Sudbury host Jonathan Pinto.

Roger Hawkins

[Music: Paul Simon's Kodachrome]

CH: This, of course, is Paul Simon's 1973 hit, Kodachrome. If the opening lyric didn't jog your memory, maybe the drumbeat did. The story goes the drummer, Roger Hawkins, played the rhythm on his high hat on the first take. But Mr. Simon wanted a lower tone. So Mr. Hawkins tried drumming on a cardboard tape box instead. Stories like that of studio tricks that make the session special seem to be synonymous with Roger Hawkins' name. The legendary Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section drummer died on Thursday. He was 75. Mr. Hawkins grew up in Indiana playing tambourine in church. According to bassist David Hood, he was known as a good drummer before he was old enough to drive a car. But his breakthrough gig came when he moved to Alabama and recorded a song called "When A Man Loves a Woman" with a local musician named Percy Sledge. That hit led to a string of work into Muscle Shoals fame studios, where he formed the legendary Swampers session group. Mr. Hawkins ability to find the right pocket for whoever stepped into the studio served him well. You can hear him on Aretha Franklin's Respect, Wilson Pickett's Mustang Sally, and Etta James I'd rather go blind just to name a few. As he told the Birmingham News in 2019, "I was a better listener than I was a player. I could pull out certain things and make it work."

May 21, 2021 Episode Transcript

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