April 30, 2020 Episode Transcript

The AIH Transcript for April 30, 2020

[host]Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden[/host]

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens".

[Music: Theme]

CO: Danger in numbers. A religious gathering in Israel becomes a panicked stampede in which at least 45 people were killed -- and a paramedic tells us how the tragedy happened.  

CH: Ballot blocks. Florida Republicans pass an election bill they say will provide much-needed security -- but a Democratic state representative says it's nothing more than "legalized voter suppression". 

CO: Taking the bully by the horns. After a man who harassed Quebec politician Christine Labrie is convicted, she reflects on what she endured -- and why, in the end, she's relieved that she pushed for justice. 

CH: Refusing to be silent. Ten years after the massacre in Norway, a new documentary puts the spotlight on the survivors who are raising their voices to urge their fellow citizens to confront right-wing extremism. 

CO: Don't worry: they've got you hovered. If you live in Virginia, and you want cookies, good news: during the pandemic, the Girl Scouts have enlisted big tech -- including drones to fly Thin Mints to your apart-mints.

CH: And...just an un-nest mistake. A family in California is all aflutter to find their house is, too -- after hundreds of birds swooped down their chimney, flew through the flue, and temporarily ruled the roost. 

CH: "As It Happens", the Friday edition. Radio that warns you about some imminent flocker room talk. 

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Israel Stampede, QC MNA Harassed, Birds in Chimney

Israel Stampede

Guest: Uriel Goldberg

CH: It was meant to be a holy celebration. But as thousands of people gathered at Mount Meron, Israel -- there was a sudden panic, and a crush of bodies. At least 45 worshipers have died, and dozens more are hurt. It's being described as one of the worst disasters in recent Israeli history. Uriel Goldberg coordinated the rescue of injured people. He's a paramedic with Israel's national emergency service. We reached him in Kiryat Ono, Israel.

CO: Uriel, this was meant to be a celebration, is that right?

URIEL GOLDBERG: That's correct. Lag BaOmer is a Jewish holiday. It comes from the Kabballah. And people often go to the Mount Meron, which is where the incident caused the grave of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. Shimon. You light bonfires and sing and dance, it's supposed to be a very festive occasion.

CO: Can you describe what the scene was before this deadly crush of people happened?

UG: So we, every year, have teams who are stationed on the mountain covering the entire space, who are watching and who are in every area. And this year as well, they were there. They were right next to the celebrations, tens of thousands of people who were lighting bonfires and dancing. And that's what... that's what the scenario was before before the incident occurred.

CO: So people were gathered, they're dancing, there's bonfires, there's lots of children. And then so what happened exactly? Where was the place where this crush actually occurred?

UG: There was a small corridor area which many people were trying to get through. And at the same time, some people there started panicking. Some may have slipped. The small area with the pressure of a lot of people there, and some of them not being able to... not being able to leave... not being able to leave the area caused a sense of chaos. And in Hebrew, as we say, balagan, a mess.

CO: And was there nothing that could stop this movement, this people who, as they started to go through this passage, they just kept on going, even though people had fallen

UG: As far as we could see in the videos, people started falling, and people behind couldn't see and carried on moving like a wave couldn't be stopped.

CO: Have you heard from anyone about... who survived that, about what it was like to be there?

UG: So I'm actually in a meal right now with my wife's cousin, who was there at the time, and he was struck by how claustrophobic and stressful it was. And how he feels so lucky to have made it out safely. He didn't see exactly what happened. He saw when... when…. when the chaos started, when the stampede started, he saw... he saw the masses coming out. And he managed to... managed to escape just in time. I think he was just in the right area at the right time. He was able to... to miss... to miss the large... the large mass and make it out.

CO: What are you hearing about the kinds of injuries that came of this stampede?

UG: So, as I said, we had a MDA ambulances and team members who were there from before... before the incident occurred. So in the first seconds, they were able to provide first aid. And the first report which we received were those who were injured who will be having CPR performed on them. And they weren't breathing and had no pulse. We also started hearing about those with... with critical head injuries, with crush injuries and injuries to the limbs. But the people who fell at the beginning were smothered and crushed underneath the crowds.

CO: Just awful! And children were in that scene as well, right?

UG: Yes, it was... it was a mixture of men and children, and that's who we saw. So when it came to treating those who were injured were a mixture of adults, teenagers and children. And those also others who were missing,  there was a lot of children who... who got caught up, who were caught up in the in the situation.

CO: And got separated from their parents?

UG: Yes, they got separated from family members, and afterwards had to be reunited.

CO: How is your cousin doing?

UG: He's doing well. He's still a little bit of shock. But as I said, he's thankful… he's thankful he made it out. Sure, over the coming weeks, we're going to hear plenty of testimonies and stories about people who were there, people who were even closer. People who may have actually felt, as I saw in one of the TV interviews, people who said they... they felt the death and they... they really feel like it's a miracle they made it out.

CO: And how are your medics doing, having responded to such an emotional scene?

UG: Our medics, our volunteers and our employees are used to seeing certain sights, and they used to treating at terror incidents and mass casualties. But this was something which most people have never, ever seen before, and it's going to affect them for a while. We're also working on our psychological first aids we're offering for those who have been affected.

CO: You plan for this event every year. You plan for other events like this, is there anything that you could have done to prevent this?

UG: So as our job as the national EMS organization, the ambulance service, we... we put in place hundreds of volunteers and ambulances. And our hope is that something like this won't happen. We had a drill the day before… the day before the event. All of our teams were well-practiced. We... we didn't have any control over... over the passages or the way people were walking or the routes which people were taking. Our job was, if something like this happens, to deal with it. And our volunteers started treating within seconds, the ambulance started evacuating within minutes. And very quickly for... for... for an incident of this size and this complexity, we had... we had finished the instant. All of the injured had been evacuated to hospital. I think, given the situation and the circumstances, we did the best we were able to.

CO: And from the film, the video I've seen, it was also difficult because people wanted to get to the site to see, to find people. There was a lot of crowd control even after the event, yes?

UG: Yes, there was a lot of issues, especially with cell service on the mountain. And the people who were there were unable to contact either friends or family who were there on the mountain or their friends back home. So there were a lot of people who were also trying to get back in to find those who were missing and some of those who wanted to carry on celebrating on the mountain as well.

CO: Really, people wanted to continue the celebration?!

UG: Yeah, they carried on till the morning. Our teams also stayed there just in case anything else would have happened. We were there until... until the morning. We have teams there now as well, just in case.

CO: Did they not know that dozens of people had died?

UG: They do. I don't know what their rationale is? And I don't think I don't think we can judge... we can judge their state of mind.

CO: Uriel, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

UG: Thank you very much.

CH: Uriel Goldberg is a paramedic with Israel's national emergency service. We reached him in Kiryat Ono, Israel.

[Music: Folk]

QC MNA Harassed

Guest: Christine Labrie

CH: This week, Christine Labrie took to Facebook  to describe her experience of criminal harassment and cyber-bullying. Ms. Labrie is a member of Quebec's National Assembly. On Monday, a Sherbrooke court convicted a man of subjecting her to violent online abuse. Another man had previously pleaded guilty, after pursuing her with violent phone calls. Ms. Labrie's Facebook post makes it clear that her decision to file complaints wasn't an easy one -- but she concludes, quote, "it was worth it." We reached Christine Labrie in Sherbrooke, Quebec.

CO: Ms. Labrie, how did you learn that this saga, as you call it, was finally coming to an end?

CHRISTINE LABRIE: Well, I was there in the terminal when we had the judgement where we learned he was guilty.

CO: Right. And this is one of the cases. You had… there were two men whom you complained about. This is the man who pleaded not guilty, and you actually had to go to trial with him, is that right?

CL: Yeah, that's right. The first complaint I made, the man pled guilty himself. So I just had to go on trial. But for the second complaint, I had to go on court.

CO: We don't need to revisit some of the messages that these men left as phone messages and as emails. But can you give us just a sense of what kinds of abuse you were subjected to by these men?

CL: It was very degrading remarks about my sexuality. He was telling I was corrupted. I found that pleasure to see people suffering. I was like accomplice of his torture. And it was very degrading remarks about my sexuality, calling me a slut and other words like this.

CO: Despite how violent these messages were, and that the judge saw no... no other verdict but guilty, you had a hard time actually posting these complaints, didn't you? You wrote in a Facebook posting that you struggled with the decision to actually complain. Do you want to tell us why?

CL: Yes, I did, because we have the mission of an MNA to represent the citizen. We want to help them. And I didn't know if it was the right way to help this person to make a complaint against him. I was also doubting if... if it doesn't work, will it fuel cynicism? I was very afraid about this, that the complaint doesn't change anything, and that people think I was doing this only to get more attention, which was really not the case. But, you know, sometimes victims can hear those kinds of comments.

CO: The other man who was phoning you, he went so far as to... to remind you of what happened in Ecole Polytechnique when those women were murdered in that... in that massacre. And so did that... did you feel that you had... you had responsibility to other women to call this out?

CL: Yes. For this case, there was absolutely no doubt that he had to call the police. I was actually very afraid of what this man could do. There was a lot of misogyny in his messages. This man was… he had awful words about woman. It was disgusting, very disgusting. So I... there was no doubt I had called the police. Well, it was so disgusting that my... my staff who actually took the messages on the... on the phone, at first, they did not want me to hear the messages. [chuckling] So when I heard it, I... we called the police very fast because this man was making like an homage to the author of the massacre of Polytechnic. So it was unacceptable.

CO: And the province... in Quebec, that must be... because everyone who lives there remembers how horrible that was. And this must have really shaken you to have that... you compared to that event?

CL: It was very shocking, yes, and we were a few days before the commemoration of December 6th, so it was... I was afraid. I was really afraid that it [chuckling] could pass to action, you know, and he could concretise this violence in... in... in another concrete act. I was... I was really afraid about this. We never know when a person passes from the words to the action. I could not know what he was going to do. I was afraid about this.

CO: The other man who sent you these other messages and he faced you in court, you wrote on Facebook that until you heard the prosecutor actually describe what he had done in court, you didn't have a full sense of how awful that was. Can you tell me what it was like when... when you realized how dangerous this kind of behaviour is?

CL: It was very special to me to see the prosecutor take my defence, actually. And I felt tears coming into my eyes when I heard her, because at this point, I really... when I heard her quoting all the awful words that he was writing to me, I realized how violent it was when I heard it in her mouth. And at this point, I really realized that I made the good thing to file a complaint because I was…. I was really daunting to this point. And when I heard her, I had this sense that I really have made what was the right thing, [chuckling] to file the complaint. Even at this point, I didn't know that he will be found guilty. But when I heard her, I was sure at this point that I had to file a complaint and to go to the end of this process.

CO: You said in your Facebook posting that you were hesitant because politicians are supposed to have a hard shell. They're not supposed to… they're supposed to be able to take this. What message do you want people to get from this as to when the line is crossed, what women politicians in particular are faced with?

CL: We don't have to tolerate this. We don't have never to tolerate this kind of violence. And I think it's really the right thing to do to file complaints, to send a message to the persons that don't know how to communicate their critics adequately. Qe have to send this message that it's not adequate. You have to draw the line very neatly. And to show that it's not appropriate, we don't have to tolerate this, even if people don't agree with us, even if they had a very tough life, even if they are in a hard times, we can't tolerate this kind of language.

CO: Ms. Labrie, I'm sure a lot of politicians, women, are listening and applauding you for this. And I admire your courage. Thank you.

CL: Thank you.

CH: Christine Labrie is a Quebec Solidaire member of Quebec's National Assembly. We reached her in Sherbrooke, Quebec.

[music: ambient]

Birds in Chimney

Guest: Patrick Belleville

CH: Last week, Patrick Belleville went out for a nice dinner with his family. Safely socially distanced from any other diners. But when he returned home, he found he was surrounded by unwelcome visitors who had no respect whatsoever for his personal space. And not just a few visitors. Hundreds. We reached Patrick Belleville in Torrance, California -- in the Los Angeles area. 

CO: Patrick, when you returned home, at what point did you suspect that all was not right in your house?

PATRICK BELLEVILLE: When me and my girlfriend walked in the door, she opened up the door, and she goes, there's bats. And I said, bats? And so I opened the door, I turned on the light, and I went, oh, my gosh, there's birds everywhere!

CO: Not bats, but birds?

PB: Not bats, but birds. I'm kind of glad they were birds and not bats.

CO: And when you say everywhere, what do you mean?

PB: I mean, from the... from the living room, to the bedrooms, to the bathrooms, every... every place in the house, there was birds, upstairs, downstairs. It was wild.

CO: You have seen Hitchcock's movie "The Birds", right?

PB: I have, and that's the first thing I said. I was looking for him, actually. I thought it was a prank.

CO: Did you have an idea how many birds were in your house?

PB: I stopped counting at 800. Because I had to take them out one by one, actually, I was grabbing them four by... or two by two and just releasing them out the door.

CO: What... were they flying around in your house when you got there?

PB: Oh, yes, they were everywhere. They came right down the chimney, and... and they just swarmed like a bunch of bees. They were everywhere.

CO: Now, people say you can just open the doors, and they'll leave. That didn't happen?

PB: OK, so we called the local sheriff. We asked them if they can get a hold of animal control? And animal control says just open your windows, open your doors, and they'll fly out. Well, that didn't happen. I opened everything, I even took the screens off the windows, and they never flew out. So that's when I started removing.

CO: Did you stay in the house or did you... I understand you had to stay one night in a hotel?

PB: My girlfriend, her daughter and baby, they got a hotel. And so me and my girlfriend stayed in the house and started clearing.

CO: How do you feel about clearing out all these birds? I mean, are you… [chuckling] do you have any phobias?

PB: Thank heaven, no. [chuckling] So it was wild, but it had to be done because since we had no resources to have them removed. So I just did it.

CO: Do you know what kind of birds they were?

PB: I don't know if they were starlings, that somebody told me they were starlings, but they're called, I think, sweepers. And because they go down the chimneys and they actually sweep all the soot from the fireplace all the way out in the living room. It ruined everything. [chuckle]

CO: People get one or two. But 800, that does seem a bit excessive, doesn't it?

PB: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I stopped... it was over... over a thousand easy. Yeah, I stopped counting at 800.

CO: How did you get them out?

PB: I grabbed them by hand and took them out the front door, and let them go.

CO: And did they go willingly now?

PB: Nope, a few of them flew back in. [chuckle] And then I realized, well, we have to turn the lights off, kind of like down low because they were going right for the light.

CO: Do you have any idea why they wouldn't leave the house? Was there... is there a lot of food there? Were they comfortable?

PB: I think they were panicking. You know, they're in a trapped area, and you got me running around trying to grab them and putting them out.

CO: Right. But if it was a flock, there may have been a leader or some way to direct them out once they find their way out, right? That when they panic, they don't know how to get out?

PB: Right, I tried that. You know, I couldn't tell which one was, you know, different. They all looked the same to me. So it was like trying to find a queen bee. So I just one by one, and I was hoping they would all follow, but they never did.

CO: You had to remove every single bird by hand?

PB: By hand.

CO: How long did that take?

PB: Three days.

CO: [chuckling] Three days.

PB: [chuckling] Yes.

CO: So, for three days, you were taking a bird out one at a time?

PB: Yes. [chuckling]

CO: Now, were you living in the house during all of this?

PB: Yes, yeah.

CO: And what was that like to --

PB: Thank heaven… thank heaven we had our door closed, to our bedroom. That was the only thing; there was no birds in our room, every other room, all the doors were open.

CO: And so you could get to your bedroom and close the door and could you sleep?

PB: Yes, yes, after all night of chasing birds around, throwing them out, then we just came in here and then I got up about, you know, probably about 4:00 in the morning and just started doing it again.

CO: What's it like to live with 800 birds?

PB: It was kind of creepy. [chuckling] But, you know, like I said, I had to do it, I had to get it done because nobody else is going to do it.

CO: Kind of creepy. And at some point, kind of foul maybe, too?

PB: Yeah, it wasn't as bad because it was so... everything was fresh, as you might say.

CO: [laughing] you mean the poo?

PB: Yes, [laughing] it was everywhere. We had to remove everything, I mean, all the curtains, I just opened the windows, and I threw everything out. The baby's toys, we... you know, we didn't even try and wash them. They were so bad. We just got rid of them. We just threw them out in the yard.

CO: So everything was covered with... with bird poo?

PB: Everything. I mean, everything. Bathrooms, bedrooms, sheets, sofas, even on the walls.

CO: So now all the birds are gone?

PB: All the birds are gone. I am very happy about that. Every time I see a bird fly over now, I'm like, don't you even think about it!

CO: [chuckling] So... so you're settled back in your house, all is well?

PB: All is well. We're doing well. We just basically... just trying to get things back together. We've got to buy all new stuff, so it's going to be a challenge for a while.

CO: And you're keeping that chimney flue closed?

PB: Oh, absolutely. Oh man, I closed that thing right away. [CO chuckles] Then I felt guilty, and I opened it back up to make sure that no more were stuck in there. [chuckle] But they were all gone.

CO: I'm glad all is well, Patrick, and it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

PB: Nice talking to you. You have a great day.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

PB: Thanks. Bye-bye.

CH: Patrick Belleville removed hundreds of birds from his home earlier this month. We reached him Torrance, California.

[music: LA Noire-like theme]

Liverpool Test Rave  

CH: The rules are pretty simple: don't wear a mask and don't socially distance. Just dance like it's 2019. Tonight, thousands of people are attending a government-approved rave in a giant warehouse in Liverpool, England. The two-day dance is headlined by Fatboy Slim. It's part of series of trials to test whether live events and venues can reopen at full capacity -- something the UK government hopes to do by the end of June. Now, each of the six-thousand partygoers attending this weekend's test will need to show a negative COVID test before entering the rave. Scientists will then use cameras and carbon dioxide monitors to track movement and measure air transmission between the hot and sweaty people in the crowd. As the lead researcher told the BBC, the trial event will also hopefully answer the question, quote: "With all of [these] measures in place, do people still enjoy themselves?" Unquote.

[music: indie rock]

Part 2: Florida New Voting Restrictions, GG Cookie Drones

Florida New Voting Restrictions

Guest: Angie Nixon

CH: Republican Governor Ron DeSantis says it's about "staying ahead of the curve." But opponents say the rules move voting rights in Florida backwards. Florida's state legislature is the latest to approve new limits on voting, following Donald Trump's baseless claims that the 2020 presidential was rigged against him. A top Republican state senator has said it's about making it as "easy as possible to vote and hard as possible to cheat," -- and Governor DeSantis has said he'll sign the bill into law. But Angie Nixon strongly disagrees. She's a Democratic state representative. We reached her at the Florida State Capitol in Tallahassee. 

CO: Representative Nixon, debate on this bill this week was clearly emotional for some lawmakers. What was it like for you?

ANGIE NIXON: It was very frustrating for me because I've been a community organizer doing movement work in the state of Florida and across the country for the past 10-plus years. And to be there and watch, watching as they legalize voter suppression, was very disheartening, knowing how hard we've worked to push back on voter suppression in the past, and seeing that they're high-fiving and excited about this, it's so frustrating.

CO: What's curious is that I remember after the 2020 presidential elections, the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, He said that Florida had, quote, the most transparent and efficient election anywhere in the country. So why these restrictions? Why did Republicans pass these laws?

AN: Republicans passed these laws because voters of colour, Black people voted in record numbers in 2020. And because we utilized the vote by mail-in record numbers, we outpaced Republicans, which is something that was never done before in the state. And they want to stop it. It's just all about voter suppression.

CO: In the state of Georgia, there were very controversial changes in voting restrictions there, less so in Florida, even though there were... there was attempts to make it more stringent. Can you give us a sense of where you see voter suppression in these new regulations?

AN: I think one of the most egregious acts would happen to be the resign-to-run clause that was put in, which would allow the governor to be able to appoint folks who are resigning to run on a county level for a higher office. It's allowing the governor to appoint a new elected official. They wouldn't be elected, though. [chuckling] They're appointing someone into their office. And so that in of itself takes the power away from communities. It causes people to be voiceless. It doesn't allow people to vote for people who they want in office. And it pretty much creates somewhat of a totalitarian government.

CO: And now, what seems very similar to what happened in Georgia, there... there is an effort to reduce the numbers of people who can vote by mail or put their ballots in drop boxes. Can you tell us about those new restrictions?

AN: So in regards to drop boxes now, it pretty much... we're only allowed to have drop boxes during the hours of early voting. And that totally defeats the purpose because people can still go and surrender… [chuckle] they can go and drop off their ballots at early voting sites already. And so the purpose of us having those drop boxes in the first place was to allow people to be able to... who worked during early voting hours to drop off those ballots. And now, they are requiring drop boxes to be staffed. It's clear that they do not want folks to... to have a voice, and they want to suppress votes.

CO: And supervisors who leave drop boxes accessible outside of these hours can face a penalty of up to 25-thousand dollars. Is that the case?

AN: Yes, they can face the penalty of up to 25-thousand dollars. And that's absurd. The sponsors of this deal did not take into consideration what the supervisor of elections stated, right? Like, they were opposed to this bill. And they didn't listen to them. And these are the subject matter experts. And folks who are crafting policy, when they don't listen to subject matter experts, there is just room for disaster. Look, we passed HB-1, which is the anti-protest bill. So now, not only did you take... did you make it harder for us to vote, but now you made it hard and make people fearful of even protesting. You don't want people to go out and to have a voice and to push back on oppressive policies without facing legal penalty. And so this legislative session was designed to keep people who are already oppressed feeling even more hopeless, as though they can't do anything and feeling powerless. It's all about power and control. And that's exactly what this legislative session was about in the state of Florida.

CO: Some have mentioned that this is the modern-day equivalent of relegating Black voters to the back of the bus. Would you call it that?

AN: Oh, most definitely. I mean, we sit in the back of the chambers now as Democrats. And we are actually here fighting for the people. And [chuckle] the way that we are talked to and talked down to on the floor is ridiculous. Yesterday, we had a legislator simply state it when we asked the question, when one of my colleagues, one of my Democratic colleagues, asked a question about why he did this in a bill? And he simply said, simply... simply put, because we can. Because we can. And so you're telling me that you don't want to listen to voters. You don't want to listen to residents and constituents. You don't want to listen to subject matter experts. You are doing all of this because you can, because you are so fearful of losing power and control and fearing that we if we do get in power as Democrats, you're so fearful that we're going to treat you the same way that you've treated people of colour and low-income people for hundreds of years. You're so fearful that we're going to do to you what you've done to us. And that's not right.

CO: We remember that Donald Trump declared mailed ballots fraudulent, and lots of people didn't vote by mail that usually do. Lots of Republicans in Florida used to... we're voting by mail, especially older voters. They may return to vote-by-mail or want to. So is it possible that this legislation might come back to... to bite Republican politicians in the posterior?

AN: Oh, most definitely. This is actually going to make it harder for everyone to vote by mail. It's such a shame. It's so disheartening. It's so upsetting. And what goes around comes around. And I think this will bite them in the wazoo.

CO: We'll leave it there. Representative Nixon, thank you.

AN: Thank you so much.

CO: All right. Bye-bye.

AN: Bye.

CH: Angie Nixon is a Democratic member of the Florida House of Representatives. We reached her in Tallahassee. For more on this story, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: Jazz]

Nenshi On The 'Eye Opener'
 

CH: When the health-care system collapses, it collapses fast. That's the stark reminder Naheed Nenshi is trying to get across to Calgarians this week. The mayor is urging people to stay home, remain vigilant, and keep following public health measures, as the city struggles to contain a third wave of COVID-19. Hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and active cases are now the highest they have been in the city, since the pandemic started. And as Mr. Nenshi told the CBC this morning, the rate of infection has reached a critical level.

[sc]

NAHEED NENSHI: Our numbers are really, really bad. So we've been hearing a lot about India. I heard you talking with some people from MSF this morning. And yes, the numbers in India are very underreported, but the official number in India is that their infection rate is about 200 per 100-thousand. Ours is over 500. It's double, nearly triple, what they've got in India officially. So things are actually very bad. And yes, our health care system is not on the verge of collapse. But as we've heard, there's already been triage in the use of some COVID-sparing medications. We're talking about triage so that the doctors and nurses have to decide who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. And I hate to scare people, and I don't want to, but when the health care system collapses, it doesn't happen gradually. It happens very suddenly. And so don't wait for me or for the premier to tell you what the restrictions are. It's time now to go back to the kind of discipline we saw a year ago. And every decision we make, ask ourselves, is this the right thing for my health, for my family's health, for the community's health? This is bad. And I started yesterday my message by telling two stories. My one story is a friend of mine younger than me. And now, I have an update to it, which is it's two sisters who both are in hospital. They both contracted the virus roughly when they got their vaccination, but it hadn't had time to kick in yet - the first shot. And one of them is in ICU-ventilated now for nearly a week. My other story was my friend, who's a retired senior civil servant in India, who I keep up with on Facebook. She had COVID last year. She recovered. And now, in the middle of everything going on in India, she has it again much more severe because she's caught one of the variants. Those are anecdotes, but those are stories that are real in everyone's lives. And I know there are people in Calgary who are like, well, I don't know anybody who had COVID. Or maybe I do know someone who had COVID, and it was really mild. So it's no big deal. So why are we doing all this? And I'll remind you that in my neighbourhood here in Northeast Calgary, I would be shocked if there is a house in my neighbourhood that doesn't personally know someone who has died of COVID. I'd be shocked if there's a household in my neighbourhood that hasn't been very severely impacted negatively by COVID. And now it's over the entire city.

[/sc]

CH: Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi speaking on the "Calgary Eyeopener" this morning.

[Music: lullaby]

GG Cookie Drones 

Guest: Gracie Walker

CH: You open your front door, and there's a menacing-looking flying gizmo. It's terrifying! And you're about to scream when you realize it's holding several boxes of Girl Scout cookies. And suddenly, that drone is your best and most trusted friend. The Girl Scouts of Virginia have faced predictable problems selling cookies in the midst of a pandemic. So they found several high-tech solutions -- including literally high tech -- to help them move their Thin Mints. And if you live around Christiansburg, Virginia, you can get your Girl Scout cookies delivered right to your house -- by drone. Gracie Walker is a Virginia Girl Scout. We reached her in Elliston, Virginia.

CO: Gracie, how many Girl Scout cookies have you sold this year?

GRACIE WALKER: I have sold 5,025 boxes.

CO: How many do you usually sell?

GW: Normally, every year, my goal is a thousand because we get a pearl because Juliette Gordon Low, the founder of Girl Scouts, sold her string of pearls to found Girl Scouts because they needed money. And so every year in our council, if we sell a thousand boxes of cookies, we get a pearl necklace.

CO: Wow!

GW: So every year, at least it's a thousand.

CO: Now, other girls are saying that it's really hard to sell cookies. It's the middle of a pandemic. So what's the key to your success?

GW: Probably just finding out new ways to sell. I have been putting pieces of paper on people's doors with QR codes to give them my link so they can buy online. And I make videos for family and friends.

CO: OK, now, but you also have a secret weapon, don't you? And it takes to the air. Can you tell us about that?

GW: That is our drone. And we partnershiped with Wing. And it is very cool. And we deliver only in Christiansburg, in a three-mile radius. So we are delivering in there. And the drone's about 10 pounds, and it can carry about three pounds. And it is very neat because it's very stable. And when it lowers down to the package, it depends on what cookies you have, but some come with water in it to balance it out, so your cookies don't go flying everywhere.

CO: And is this really successful? Like, how many cookies are you delivering by drones?

GW: We don't know the numbers right now because We're still selling till the end of May?

HEATHER: Yes.

CO: That's your mom, Heather, in the background, right?

GW: Yes, ma'am.

CO [chuckling] Hi to Heather. But I understand this is the first time the Girl Scout cookies have been delivered by drones, is that right?

GW: Yes, first council in the world.

CO: And so do you think that this is... that you're part of a bit of history here? Do you think this is going to be the way Girl Scout cookies get delivered in the future?

GW: Oh, yes, I definitely know I am a part of history, and it's very awesome.

CO: But you know what? I'll tell you something, that when you... when we interact with Girl Scouts, it makes us want to buy the cookies because they're always... the girls are always so nice. And sometimes the actual girl there helps with the sale. Do you think you're losing a bit of that personal contact?

GW: Well, I definitely know that the drone does not have the cuteness factor, but we do want people to know that we still are doing a lot of work with the cookie sales, but we are trying to be safe with COVID, too. So some…. with our older family members, the drones can deliver cookies to them. And because I go to school, I don't want to give the germs from school to make them sick. So they know that we are there, but we're trying to stay safe.

CO: I understand. It's a good idea to stay safe. And so when do you think when this whole pandemic is over, are you looking forward to... to selling cookies in-person again?

GW: Oh, yes.

CO: What do you like about being a Girl Scout?

GW: Probably learning lots of skills, business skills.

CO: What have you learned? Business skills? [laughing] Yes, you certainly have them. And so... so you've learned how to do business through the Girl Scouts?

GW: Yes, because we sell cookies. And selling 5,000 cookies, you learn a little bit of business.

CO: [laughing] I think you could teach a little bit of business to lots of folks at this point.

GW: I actually have. We have something called Cookie College, and I actually got to do Goal Setting this year. I got to teach it to other girls.

CO: This does not surprise me. Now, tell me, just because here in Canada, Girl Scout cookies, we call them Girl Guides, they have mint and chocolate and vanilla. So is it the same flavours there?

GW: No, I have tried those Girl Guide cookies, and I love them. You might not want to air this, but I like your chocolate mint better than ours.

CO: Oh!

GW: They're my favourite. But we have Thin Mints. Those are chocolate and mint. Then we have Samoas, those are a wafer cookie with caramel, coconut and drizzled chocolate. Then we have the Tag-alongs, a peanut butter and chocolate cookie. And we have the Do-si-dos. Those are a sandwich peanut butter cookie. We have the Trefoils, but they're a shortbread cookie. Then... then we have Toffee-tastic, that's gluten-free. It's kind of like... I don't know if you guys know what this is, but it's kind of like a pecan sandy. Then we have the Lemon-Ups, those are a lemon cookie with a lemon glaze on the back. And S'mores.

CO: Well, Gracie, how come you get so many different kinds of cookies, and we don't have them here?

GW: I don't know. That's a question I should ask. But neat to compare your guys' cookies with ours!

CO: [laughing] Just... now, what advice would you give to our Girl Guides of Canada? Do you think they should start using drones up here?

GW: Well, I think it would be a cool idea for them to try, but I think they should try their own idea, too. Try what's best for their area, too.

CO: Well, [laughing] I think you have been more than successful, Gracie. And it's really lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

GW: Thank you.

CO: Take care.

GW: Bye.

CH: That was Gracie Walker from the Girl Scouts of Virginia, Skyline Troop 224, who are now using drones to deliver cookies. We reached her in Elliston, Virginia.

[music: indie rock]

T-Pain TikTok

CH: The premise of "The Masked Singer" is objectively wild. It's the kind of reality-TV show that sounds like a parody of a reality-TV show. If you haven't seen it: celebrities put on elaborate, head-to-toe costumes that hide their identities, and then they sing for a panel of judges. Then audience members vote for their favourite vocalists. When contestants are eliminated, they remove their giant heads. And the loss of their heads reveals we may have collectively lost ours. But for the show's inaugural American winner T-Pain, competing on "The Masked Singer" was an unlikely high note.

[sc]

NICK CANNON: You are truly the king of "The Masked Singer". Tell me, why would you do this crazy show? 

T-PAIN: I didn't have a chance to come into the game with my natural voice and, you know, a lot of my peers did and they can accept it. This helped me get my voice out there even more. And I appreciate you all.

[/sc]

CH: T-Pain, reflecting on his 2019 "Masked Singer" win. A chance to show the haters he was capable of so much more than auto-tune. There is, however, something T-Pain is not good at. Replying to all the celebrity DMs he's been receiving since taking home the reality TV crown. Or knowing those messages were even there. Messages from the likes of Viola Davis, Fergie, Diplo, and Karl-Anthony Towns, among many others. In a TikTok this week, T-Pain revealed he was, quote, "today years old" when he learned hundreds of DMs had been funneled into his Message Request folder on Instagram. Which he had never opened before. And as long as he's looking to, quote, "super apologize" he might as well consider buying them a drank.

[music: ambient]

Part 3: Hot Docs: Generation Utoya

Hot Docs: Generation Utoya

Guests: Aslaug Holm, Kamzy Gunaratnam 

CH: Almost 10 years ago, a right-wing terrorist attacked the heart of Norway. On July 22nd, a car bomb went off in the centre of Oslo near the prime minister's office, killing eight people. That evening we spoke to Maya Seim, who was working not far from the site of the deadly explosion.

[sc]

MAYA SEIM: When the news hit us, and we got more information, of course, it feels like Oslo lost its innocence today. Yeah. People are quite shook up, just trying to get hold of loved ones and confused and just watching the news. This is a small country, you know, and a small city. And I didn't expect this at all. And I don't think that many people did. I know some may be a bit scared that it isn't over.

[/sc]

CH: And of course, it wasn't over. Reports began to emerge of a second attack on a Labour Party youth camp at Utoya Island. That's when we reached Hallvard Sandberg, a reporter with Norway's public broadcaster.

[sc]

HALLVARD SANDBERG: The details are quite horrific. There was an information meeting about the attack in Oslo. They had just got the information that the bomb went off in the government quarters in Oslo. And the youths, they were gathering around to hear more information about it. A person in a police uniform got up and said, hello. Listen to me. And then he started shooting them. I've seen helicopter images now from youths trying to swim away from this island. And there's reports about dead bodies lying in the water. And there is at least eight severely wounded youths being flown into the hospital now. And we don't know the number of people who have been killed.

[/sc]

CH: It soon became clear that the person responsible for both attacks was a right-wing extremist. He killed 69 people on that island. It was the deadliest mass shooting by a lone gunman ever. And Norway had never seen that kind of violence before. The young people at the camp were traumatized. But many of them refused to be silent about what happened to them -- and what it meant for their country. Four women who survived the massacre are part of a new documentary about the fallout from the attack. It's called "Generation Utoya", and it's airing at this year's Hot Docs film festival. Aslaug Holm is the film's director. Kamzy Gunaratnam is one of the women who survived. They joined Carol from Norway via Zoom for this feature interview:

CO: Aslaug and Kamzy, welcome to "As It Happens".

ASLAUG HOLM: Thank you so much. 

KAMZY GUNARATNAM: Thank you.

CO: Aslaug, I want to begin with you as the filmmaker. The whole world was shaken by what we heard that day. And we hear so often also that that day in July, almost 10 years ago, was... was a defining moment for Norway. You call this documentary "Generation Utoya" after the name of the island. What does that mean?

AH: It means that we are making a story about youths continuing to fight for the same values for which they were attacked. It's about young people continuing fighting for politics, even if they were threatened to death. And also, saw several of their friends being killed that day. So as a filmmaker, I'm really inspired to make a story about these young women that have the courage to move on, carrying this heavy luggage. And at the same time, they are fighting for these values also today.

CO: And Kamzy, you were one of those people on the island, and you are one of the four women featured in Aslaug's documentary. Do you see yourself as part of a "Generation Utoya"?

KG: Well, I definitely understand the term. And maybe both me and Aslaug understand the term also in a wider perspective, you know? The one thing is those of us who survived the island attack, and we're still engaging ourself in politics, and still doing the stuff that a certain person wanted to kill us for, right? But I hope in the future that this movie and this term, maybe it can appeal to all the generation growing up, you know? And want to prevent something like this from happening again.

CO: I want to ask you, Kamzy, to stay with you for a moment about the... before we get into the story of the day and what it… what it wrought. I just want to know what that... being part of the youth movement of Norway's Labour Party, because that was the group, that was the young people who were meeting on the island. It looks absolutely idyllic, the pictures that Oslo has shown us of that beautiful place.  I want to understand a bit more about what it meant to you personally, because I know your family came from Sri Lanka to Norway. You speak of being kind of a shy child. Getting involved in politics really changed you. Just tell us a bit about what it meant to you to be on the island that day, to be a part of this youth movement. How did it affect you?

KG: Well, when I started to engage in politics, my mom and dad wasn't that excited about it because what they associate with politics in Sri Lanka was not positive. So when I started to engage, when I was 18 years old, they were not undivided [chuckle] in their happiness and excitement about it. So they were like, OK, be careful, don't stick your head out, just blend in, you know? [chuckling] And then, I tried to prove to them that politics in Norway is different. It's safe. You don't get killed to engage. You don't get killed to have an opinion in this country. You can actually... you can engage and you can have aggressive discussions, but still go home as friends, you know? But then this happened. And how ironic, you know, [chuckle] that I spent my years in AUF, the Labour Youth, to explain to my parents that this is something safe to do. And then he makes me swim through the water like my mom had to do when she tried to come to Norway. And it was just so surreal to compare those things that we actually have to do the same thing that we run away from in Sri Lanka. So personally, it just, you know, my whole world got shaken, even though I know I have a better life in Norway, and I'm so happy that we live here. I can't just take it all for granted. The society needs to, you know, we still need to develop, and still continue to create the common ground for all people

CO: I want to play another clip of our coverage at the time. This is [one of the campers], speaking on our show about that day. And this is from 10 years ago.

[sc]

CAMPER: A lot of people just ran into the room, and screaming, saying there's someone shooting outside. I didn't believe it at first, but I got a feeling that it was true, so I ran around looking for my sister and brother.

CO: They were also on the island, were they?

CAMPER: Yes. And then I heard the shooter come closer. So I ran into a toilet, and was there with three other people.

CO: And did…. how close do you think that you came? And was was Mr. Breivik anywhere near where you were hiding?

CAMPER: When I got out of the toilet, there was a guy dead in front of the toilet door.

CO And your sister and your brother?

CAMPER: My little sister, she swam over to the land side. And my big brother, he was running around the island trying to look for us.

CO: But they were... they survived as well as you did?

CO: Yes, they did.

CO: That was [a camper] talking about that day. And, Kamzy, for you as well, swimming. You just mentioned that. That that was how you escaped.

KG: Yeah, it was that or being shot. So I had to just decide how I wanted to survive, or actually, how I wanted to die because I never swam that much in my life. And to swim, like from that point, it was six hundred metres over to the land side. And it's... it was impossible for me to imagine that I could make it. I thought I decided I'd have to die because I didn't want to get shot. So I felt the water was easier.

CO: When you got to the edge of the water, others decided not to. They thought it was... how did they... why did they hesitate and you didn't?

KG: You know, you... you react with flee, fight, or freeze. I think a lot of people froze, you know, like, [chuckle] is this really happening in Norway. Is this really happening? The only way I, you know, started to believe that something was happening, it was because some of the people who came running from the other side of the island saw dead bodies. Otherwise, I don't know what I would have done. But I think a lot of people just froze. They didn't know what to do. They panicked. They got stuck in different places. And perhaps some people just really couldn't believe this was happening. They need to see the person shooting. And, you know, they are not with us today. I don't know what to say because none of the decisions anyone made was wrong. But I think this is not what you expect at a summer camp.

CO: This is not what anybody expects at summer camp, that's for sure. Aslaug, I want to ask you about… you interviewed others and their friends as well, not just these four women, but people associated with them and about what it was to survive this attack and to lose so many friends. What... what burden did these young survivors tell you they had to bear?

AH: It is a really heavy burden. So when I was filming those young, brave characters, [chuckle] I saw the heavy burden and saw how difficult it was every day to just rise up and go out and be brave and fight for our values. So it's not easy, but I think I felt it was necessary and also gave them some huge force in a way to move on. I don't know, Kamzy, but I think you have this strong feelings about your mission, in a way. So for me, filming this, it was really inspiring, actually, despite it was a really dark terrorist attack, I felt this light is in a way shining through the dark happening. And move in the future to just remind us how important it is to fight for democracy and for free speech and for being the society we want it to be.

CO: Kamzy, does that ring true to you?

KG: Yeah, I think Aslaug is right because I felt so inspired by the other three women, really, like truly inspired by how they are both handling it and also how they keep fighting in their everyday life. The most important thing is that we are politicians. Like, I know people want to look at us like survivors and victims. And, you know, you have all the feelings and the burden, of course, we are carrying. But, we are politicians, we have visions, we have things we want to do, and only through our political tools, we can create the society that do not create another terrorist like that. And that's our mission. That's... that's my mission. And I think that that will be so important to mobilize people to come with us on that. I think people maybe think that's a bit too early to talk about it, but we have to start somewhere. And I think this movie is an... is an invitation to be a part of the work we all have to do. Because after 22nd of July, everyone gave each other a promise. They said never again, 22nd of July. And everyone, you know, raised their hand with roses. Those pictures went all over the world. Now, my question is, what did you guys mean when you said never again when you said never again, 22nd of July? Was those just words? How do you reflect those promises in your actions in everyday life? So it's just a ball I'm just throwing out there.

CO: You've done more than to throw out a ball, haven't you, Kamzy? [KG chuckles] Because you are the deputy mayor of Oslo now. [chuckling] So that force that Aslaug is speaking of that she saw in you and the others, it is a force to be reckoned with. You can see it in this documentary because you go out and you speak to young people. What is the conversation you have with them?

KG: Oh, it's just the most inspiring thing you can do. Because young people, they have so much hope. You know, sometimes you just need to find young people to talk to them, to get to feel what they feel about hope, love. And the most important thing that we show in the movie and that I engage through is that this guy, this terrorist guy, he came to an island because he disagreed with us. He could not have the self-confidence to meet us in a debate. He couldn't speak, he couldn't write. He couldn't do anything in a democratic way to show his disagreement with us. So the first and the most important thing that I like to do this workshop around is about freedom of speech. Like, how do you handle when you disagree? Like, how do you move forward when you have an idea and, you know, that might provoke someone? Like, how do you handle it when you are working with a great, great project but someone is disagreeing with you? So meet young people. Giving them realistic examples to how to handle those situations have been pretty inspiring because those kids can handle that disagreement because they meet different people every day. And when you meet different people in the kindergarten, in the school, in the working life, it grows in you to disagree in a respectful and a not harmful way. So what we've been doing is to visit different schools, talking about freedom of speech, asking them how they practice their freedom of speech, and how it helps other people in the society? And it's been so inspiring listening to them.

CO: How do they regard Anders Breivik? How do they see this man who not only killed so many of your friends and associates, but is now a symbol of what this kind of hatred of others, this fear of the other, is not just in your country, but around the world. How do they regard him?

KG: Well, the students I meet, I think they expect hate because they always start with asking me how I feel? And I tell them that I… I don't want to waste my time on hate. I don't want to hate. It doesn't bring my friends back who he killed. It doesn't bring time back. It doesn't give me anything. But we can actually do a lot together to prevent another person like him to be created. So they get shocked, [chuckle] naturally. Like, why don't you hate him? Why don't you want to kill him? Why don't you want to, you know, climb over the wall and go to his prison cell and just take him down? Like, if they're ten years old, That is their questions. And I'm telling them that it doesn't help anyone. I don't feel like it. I don't feel like killing him or hating him. I just feel pity for him. I do. And that pity it's going to be translated into actions and... and other helpful tools for other people and not wasting my time on hating him.

CO: You're listening to "As It Happens", and I am speaking with the filmmaker and one of the people featured in a new documentary called "Generation Utoya", which is at the Hot Docs Festival this year. And Aslaug, I just want... I want to ask you about this time in history, because not only 2011 is this horrible event in your country, defining moment, but also this beginning of a time when we saw probably the biggest refugee crisis in Europe, in the world, really, since the Second World War. We saw hundreds of thousands, millions of people on the move, trying to get refuge from wars around everywhere, and many of them coming to Europe and trying to come to Norway. What... what effect did that have? Because you saw a lot of the kinds of ideas that Anders Breivik was spouting. They surfaced and resurfaced in many places, didn't they?

AH: Yes. I think what the values Breivik had reflect, in a way, the threat in our time. We live in a really challenging time, I think, both in Europe and USA. And this fear, which maybe starts with if you don't have the social skills and economic good place in your own life, you are afraid of refugees, and that someone will come up outside the country, and you will only fight for yourself. It's about surviving. So I think this hatred, the right-wing extremist values are connecting deeply to social classes. I think it's about polarizing. It happens all over the world. And in Norway, we have had this tradition for equal rights. And it's not so huge differences between classes and the social living. But now, that also is increasing in Norway. So I think the work Kamzy does when she is travelling around and speaking to young people is so important because she talks about where it all starts. It starts when you're young, when you're going on school, and when we are frustrated and alone, you will, in a way, feel outside, and it will be a much more risk that something will happen. So I feel the film is also trying to reflect on our time by following four young, brave women politicians. We in a way will meet this cold winds and how they feel it on their body and how they fight for their values still.

CO: these cold winds, as you refer to. Kamzy, your parents, Tamil refugees to Norway, your mother, you said she had to swim part of the way in her escape. What has it been like for... for them to see, for you as well, to see these cold winds, these ideas enter really mainstream, in some respects, Norwegian politics?

AH: When I became engaged in politics, they didn't feel safe because of how they looked at politics in Sri Lanka. But they also told me a lot later that they are afraid that I can never reach as far as other people in the society because I'm Brown, because... because I have an immigrant background. Now, if you can add to the fact that you may have some structural racism in the society, Norway as any other country, they are not happy about what they read in my commentary like Facebook and Instagram. They... they feel less safe when they read what's happening there. Because the right-wing thugs, and the way they mobilize to attack people with immigrant background, especially women, young women with immigrant background, it's... it's horrifying. Like, I'm used to it now [chuckle]. And I have a great system around me as a deputy mayor. But the problem is, maybe the most important problem that is destroying our democracy is that less and less youth will get engaged by looking at how other youth and young women and men are getting treated in public and in the social media. It worries me. Unfortunately, the way people talk to each other, we are reading and experiencing how Muslims are being treated. And how the second generation are experiencing more discrimination based on racism. And I think that a lot of people don't know their responsibility in how to create the society that will eliminate many of the differences between us. It's not about Breivik. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, I'm sorry, I don't think, I know a lot of people share his thoughts. They will never use violence like he did, but they share his thoughts. And that is worrying me that because of the way he communicated what kind of society he wanted, he has a couple of followers. Like, it's not many. But too many people are discriminating, and they're trying to look at us as second-degree citizens or that we don't belong here. But I think that is more about their feeling of losing their identity, that they don't feel home anymore in Oslo,  or Norway. That they feel that they are not in the Norway they grew up in. And that's not about hating. I think that's, first and foremost, about not knowing people.

CO: Aslaug, I sense you want to add something.

AH: Yes, I feel that Kamzy, she is so good with words. It's actually about words. Because words matters. We use words every day when we act and the politicians, leaders are especially responsible for how they communicate. And I feel sometimes there are some politicians that communicate a message which is underlying. It's not explicit, but it's underlying where the people are, in a way, understand it and they act on it. So I feel it's so important to have the responsibility to which message you send out. So I'm so full of hope because Kamzy and the other women in this film, they are using their words in a hopeful way and also in a powerful way that you hope for well and for the right direction, in a way.

CO: You are listening to "As It Happens". And we're talking about this extraordinary new documentary, "Generation Utoyia", about what happened in Norway ten years ago. And we are speaking with the filmmaker and with one of the women who was featured in the documentary. Speaking of these…. these values, the values that you are trying to uphold and that you believe in and believe Norway possesses. And it came through so clearly in this interview we had with the father of one of the Utoyia survivors. And here he is speaking to me at the end of the trial of Anders Breivik.

[sc]

FATHER: I think we have to hear him. We have to confront him. We have to listen to what he did to understand it and to fight against it. And to understand our own society because he came from our own society.

CO: Now, we're going to hear from a number of other young people who survived the assault on the island that day during the course of the next week. If you could hear from your daughter, if she could address the court during this trial, what would she want to say, do you think?

FATHER: She would say you have lost. You will never win. We are alive. And Norway are building a stronger nation despite of you, or because of you. And we should fight for our dead brothers and sisters.

[/sc]

CO: That was [a father] speaking at the end of the trial, and he is sentenced to 22 years, and I think he can't have parole for 10 of those years. It doesn't seem…. in many countries, that wouldn't seem like a lot of years. But I understand that's the largest sentence that you have in Norway. Aslaug, I just want to ask you, you talk about words, the importance of being able to hear from people. Do you worry to some extent that making this documentary, that you have given Anders Breivik what he wants, this notoriety, this idea that somehow he changed so many people's lives, that he had such an impact, that is part of history of your country?

AH: I think I agree with that extensively. It was actually moving to hear him today now because I met him yesterday, and I'm moving with the film now around Norway. So he was on the screening, actually, and talked to me after the film and also to the audience. And he was so moved by the film. And he had this hope for the future, because I think if we can take some choices, we have to talk about it and we have to actually lift it up to the light and see what this is about. What is this political values? They are extremists values and the right-wing extremist, what is it and where does it come from? So I feel actually that the film is in a way taking up to discussion what we all carry in Norway. Because we have been maybe too…. maybe silent too long about the what is the difficult questions to talk about. But now, the time has passed. And we are 10 years after the terrorist attack. And now the time has come, I think, to take this confrontation with these ideas.

CO: Kamzy, do you want to respond?

KG I think Aslaug is totally right. I think that it's uncomfortable for Norway as a nation that he was created amongst us. It's shameful to talk about it. He is actually a result of our society. So we're done talking now. But, of course, Aslaug is right, [chuckling] words are important. And how choose... how we choose our words are very, very important. But I'm just tired of talking. Like, I want to get out there, and I want to see action by everyone because I think people think that it was a common promise, never again, 22nd of July. And then they went home, and like, OK, so what did you do the last 10 years, right? So I hope that this bill is giving people hope to, once again, asking themselves, do what can I do? How can I contribute? And I think that's the most important thing we need right now.

CO: Aslaug, I thank you for this documentary. And Kamzy, thank you for being part of it. And you're both inspirations. Thank you.

AH: Thank you so much.

CH: Kamzy Gunaratnam is featured in a new documentary about the survivors of the 2011 attack in Norway. Aslaug Holm is the director of that film, "Generation Utoya." It's airing as part of the Hot Docs Film Festival at: www.hotdocs.ca. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.