Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The AIH Transcript for February 26, 2021

Hosts: Peter Armstrong and Chris Howden

Prologue

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello. I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

PA: Sticking points. An Ottawa doctor gets the green light to start vaccinating people over-80 a little ahead of schedule. But she warns that's not a sign Ontario's vaccine rollout is going smoothly.

CH: Equality time. The first gay person of colour elected to the US Congress stands up for legislation that would ban discrimination against LGBTQ people and responds to critics who claim an expansion of his rights means an infringement on theirs.

PA: Held for ransom. This morning, hundreds more schoolgirls were kidnapped in Nigeria. And a human rights lawyer there tells us the kind of incidents that once became viral hashtags are now all too common in her country.

CH: The pipes, the pipes were calling. After the winter storm left millions of Texans struggling with water disruptions and flooding, a plumber from New Jersey drives 22 hours to lend a wrench.

PA: Burned after not reading. To attract applicants, CSIS tweeted a quote from a book by John le Carre. But given that it's a book about a double agent, critics are questioning the spy agency's intelligence.

CH: And different strokes for different folks. Most of us jump out of the shower when the temperature drops at all. But a 66 year old Irish amateur swimmer jumped into a frigid river and broke a Guinness World Record by swimming a mile. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that guesses he faced the challenge and shrank from it.

[Musc: Theme]

Part 1: Plumber drives from New Jersey to Texas with his family to help with storm repairs

Vaccine: Ottawa

Guest: Nili Kaplan-Myrth

CH: Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth got some good news yesterday, the Ottawa family doctor found out she'll be part of a group giving COVID-19 vaccines to people over the age of 80 in a few areas of her city. Dr. Kaplan-Myrth has spent months pushing for family doctors to be part of Ontario's vaccine rollout. Her role is set to start in the second week of March. That is a week ahead of when Ontario's vaccine delivery task force had promised to start getting vaccines to people over 80 in the general population. But she warns that's not a sign that everything's going smoothly. We reached Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth in Ottawa.

PA: Dr. Kaplan-Myrth, how does it feel to know you're finally going to be able to start getting vaccine doses into people's arms?

NILI KAPLAN MYRTH: Well, it feels great. I was actually a couple of weeks ago as a family doctor, part of a team that led family doctors into retirement homes to give vaccines. And now I'm signed up to go into a high risk area of Ottawa to start immunising people over the age of 80. So that's wonderful too.

PA: How does all this work? I know that the feds get the vaccines and that they distribute them to the provinces. But I'll be honest, doctor, from there, I'm a bit confused as to how this actually rolls out. So walk me through -- where does someone like you get the vaccines as you go into these high risk areas? And who are you going to be giving them to once you get there?

NILI KAPLAN MYRTH: So there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. And as a family doctor, I'm only party to some of that. But I can tell you that in Ottawa, since January, we've been advocating very strongly to be involved. And as a result, public health has been meeting with us at once, sometimes even twice a week, and talking to us about how we can do the best job of getting out to the community. But there is always the caveat that Ontario is making the decisions, not public health. So when I was booked before to go out and do the vaccination in retirement homes, there was a day where we were told we were going to be going in. And of course, I had to cancel my patients that day so that I could do that instead. And my patients were very understanding. But then we got an email from public health saying actually it's cancelled because the province has decided to hold back doses so that we can give booster doses in a month. And so then we're scrambling and I'm telling my staff, okay, well, why don't you put patients that I'll see patients during the day. And then a couple hours later, we've got another email, it's uncancelled. And that's the kind of thing that public health is dealing with. And they're getting their direction from General Hillier and from the province of Ontario. And so there's so much complexity to this. But by having excluded even public health to a large extent, but then excluding family doctors, it's been much much more messy, chaotic. And we're still waiting for the plan -- the so-called plan. So that's frustrating.

PA: On Wednesday, Rick Hillier, the head of Ontario's vaccine delivery task force, said the vaccine delivery system was set to go, that he couldn't think of anything that he could have done better. What would you say to Mr. Hillier?

NILI KAPLAN MYRTH: Well, I think every single family doctor across Ontario screamed [chuckles] because, I mean, you couldn't think of anything is better. Like even the heads of the University Health Network and everybody has said, well, actually, you should have involved public health and you should have involved primary care. So to say that you couldn't think of anything that would have been better is to say that you're refusing to acknowledge that the ways in which there is a lack of a plan and what has been delivered hasn't been done equitably. And that the number of people who've received the vaccine, who gets pushed to the front of the line, who aren't patient facing kind of caregivers, so they're actually somebody who, you know, like just a researcher in a back room or a CEO at a hospital or any of the number of situations that we've seen where it's been inequitable. Like if you're not acknowledging that, it's kind of just the emperor has no clothes. Like it's not okay that it's February 26 and we're still talking about, well, what are the priority lists and how are you actually going to get these vaccine into the arms of Canadians, let alone Ontarians? So only a politician or only a person who is so removed from what's happening in the community would be able to say, I couldn't imagine any way it could have been better. Speak to all the people on the ground who are actually those so-called frontline health care heroes who are seeing people dying. And my 89 year old patient who was in the office today, she wants to know when she's going to get her vaccine. And all I can say is, yeah, I have no idea, I have no ability to even help you to register for that, so we'll have to wait and see what the comment says.

PA: This is rolling out in different ways, in different parts of the province and different public health units within. That expands out right across the country, right, that it is totally different depending on where you live. What have you been hearing from colleagues across Canada, not just across the province?

NILI KAPLAN MYRTH: We're hearing the same kinds of issues across the country, certainly in terms of primary care being excluded from planning, but also in terms of lack of equitable access so that the issues of people who live in rural and remote areas or people who work as health care providers or essential caregivers in those areas are not having equal access to vaccine. So there are so many complexities to COVID and the COVID vaccine, but it's not just a matter of getting the doses out to each province or territory -- it's also making sure that our vulnerable populations are prioritised for those doses. And right now, the person that we speak to in public health in Ottawa compared registering for the COVID vaccine to buy tickets to a rock concert. And I know very many of my patients who already struggle, who don't own a car, who don't own a computer, who don't have the ability to get online, even to book a COVID test -- I don't understand how they're supposed to find out how to register themselves. And as a family doctor, I'm being told I can't help them. So that is true across the country. It's not specific to Ontario. And it's certainly something that we need to address as a country to say we have universal health care, but we don't have universal access to that health care.

PA: Frustrating, I'm sure. But listen, good luck when you go out and do start getting into those high risk areas. I hope that goes well for you.

NILI KAPLAN MYRTH: Thank you. Pleasure to speak to you.

PA: And with you. Thanks so much.

CH: Dr. Nili Kaplan-Myrth practises family medicine in Ottawa, that's where we reached her.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Irish Ice Mile Swimmer

Guest: Ger Purcell

CH: There's swimming, then they're swimming outdoors in the winter, and then they're swimming a mile outdoors in the winter. See all they want right now is a mug of cocoa and a pile of blankets, and I just talked about winter swimming. But Ger Purcell has actually done all of the above. And now, according to Guinness World Records, the 66 year old is the oldest person ever to complete a so-called Ice Mile. We reached Ger Purcell in Limerick, Ireland.

PA: Mr. Purcell, did you ever think you'd be a world record holder?

GER PURCELL: I never in my life thought I could ever be a world record holder. No, I did not.

PA: And yet, here we are.

GP: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

PA: How long have you been swimming outdoors?

GP: I'd say about 25 years. Only in the summertime I swim outdoors. This is my fourth year actually swimming outdoors in winter.

PA: Well, because this is my question, sir -- you would think as it gets colder, a rational person would say, 'Well, this was a good year. I got in a lot of swimming outside and I'll pick it up again in the spring.' What happened? [Chuckles]

GP: But basically in Limerick there's a swimming club -- and as you know the pools are closed at the moment because of the COVID. So basically it was suggested to me, would I not keep swimming for the winter? And I kind of looked at him face to face and I said "Look at my eyes, do I look mad? You think I'm going to swim through the ice for the winter." He said, just give it a go. He said you'll be going into November, December and he won't realize near Christmas, so you're halfway there.

PA: And did he have a point? I mean, like, it gets slowly colder or was there a day where you thought, "Okay this isn't for me?"

GP: Well, you see, when I took up the challenge to the Ice Mile, I found it very hard to resist -- I mean, for the challenge, I'll go the whole way if I can, you know?

PA: Take me through the challenge then. The idea is that the water has to be a certain temperature, and you've got to swim a mile in it?

GP: Yeah. It has to be five degrees, less than 5 degrees.

PA: How difficult was it?

GP: The best thing we had was two buoys, it would be at 200 metre distance. So you swim up and down at 400. And the last 400 I felt good. And I came around the buoy and I said, I'm going to do it. So when it came around the buoy, the sun was actually right in my face. So I lifted my head and got a mouthful of water and it's ice cold. I kind of got a bit disorientated. And I lasted for a few minutes. But then that's when the pressure came in the last 400.

PA: And it takes you out about 40-45 minutes to do the whole thing?

GP: I think it was 43 minutes. Normally in the summertime, I do that in about 30 minutes.

PA: Right. I bet. So what are the last few minutes of that -- in those frigid waters? You know, you've just had this mouthful of water, what does it take to sort of push through and finish it?

GP: [Chuckles] If you just keep going, and you just get in there -- you could hear the [inaudible] it was calling me out, "You're nearly there." You know, you're nearly there.

PA: I mean, your whole body must have just been so numb.

GP: Yeah, it is fairly cool [laughs]. Yeah it is cold. I think you just go through a kind of freeze, if you know what I mean. You just try to get there as quick as you can -- you know, you don't feel anything really in your legs or hand, you know, they are blocks of ice.

PA: What do your kids and your grandkids make of this?

GP: My son thinks I'm mad. Well he did think I'm mad but he's delighted now and he's very proud of me. I have two daughters and I have seven grandchildren. My son thought I was a bit mad out right. But he knows I'm mad but [laughs] he really thought I've left the flight, you know. But they're all very proud of me. But I think they were worried more than anything.

PA: I bet. So you get certified -- you're officially the record holder. News breaks. What's the reaction been like?

GP: The reaction has been phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. In Limerick -- I'm very proud of my city. You're right, it's unbelievable. The reaction is just amazing, you know, it really is. And we have some beautiful places in Limerick that you can swim in. The Shannon River flows through the city centre. It's probably one of the best flows of river to any city in Europe, I would think. You know, that's not being biased, but it is a beautiful river. And, yeah, we're very proud of it. You know, we need some more swimming facilities in Limerick -- really outdoor swims -- you know we need to get into and to develop more . And I think we will be doing that. Our city is progressing very well at the moment, you know.

PA: Have you been back in the water since you broke the record?

GP: Yeah, I was in today, actually.

PA: This morning?

GP: Yeah, I was in today at one o'clock. And I had a bit of an incident with one of the swans.

PA: With a swan?

GP: Yeah. [Chuckles]

PA: What happened? [Chuckles]

GP: He got up on my back [chuckles]. I didn't see him coming up behind me. Just before I looked, he was up on my back and pecking away at me.

PA: You were attacked by a swan? [Chuckles]

GP: I was, yeah. I think he wanted my autograph, you know. [Laughs]

PA: So you're the oldest person to have ever done this Ice Mile business. You know, you could break it again next year if you wanted.

GP: I don't think so. I think I'll just stick with being the oldest to do it so far. I don't think I'll do it again. I don't think I will. But then again, next year is another year, you know. Someone might come and threat me, you know, and I'll say yeah here we go.

PA: Well, hopefully by then the pools will be open.

GP: Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully we'll be back to normal.

PA: Well, listen, congratulations. And be careful of those swans.

GP: Oh I will. And I think they get a bit friendly after a while and you get to know me. [Laughter]

PA: [Laughter] Okay. Take good care.

GP: Okay. Thank you very much.

CH: Ger Purcell holds the Guinness World Record for being the oldest athlete to swim what's known as an Ice Mile. He was also recently attacked by a swan. We reached him in Limerick, Ireland.

[Music: Jazz Music]

New Jersey-Texas Plumber

Guest: Andrew Mitchell & Isaiah Pinnock

CH: It's been almost two weeks since a severe winter storm hit Texas. It left dozens of people dead, millions without power, and approximately half the state with waterpipe damage. Clearly, Texas is in dire need of plumbers. So Andrew Mitchell decided to help, despite the fact that that meant a 22-hour drive across half a dozen states to get there. Because Mr. Mitchell doesn't live in Texas. He's a plumber in Morristown, New Jersey. And he didn't go to Texas alone -- he took his wife, his two year old son, and his brother in law, Isaiah, with him. We reached Andrew Mitchell in Houston.

PA: Andrew, I hear we've caught you in the middle of a job. What are you working on right now?

ANDREW MITCHELL: Right now we're working at senior's house. And she has a leak in her bathroom, she has a leak in her other bathroom, and she had low water pressure in her shower.

PA: What is it that made you want to hop in your car and drive what was 22-hours to get from your home in New Jersey to Houston, Texas?

AM: I really love doing plumbing -- that's one thing. And the second thing, it took me so long and so many obstacles to get my plumbing licence. And I really just felt like I wanted to give back to the community because I know how great of an accomplishment I just accomplished. So I really just wanted to give back to the community. And my first day of having my licence number, I was actually in Texas working.

PA: Oh wow. And have I got this right, you brought your wife, her brother, and your two year old son along? Why did you bring the whole family?

AM: Because it's a family operation. And not to take away from what they do, because my wife has her own law firm, she's a lawyer, and my brother-in-law is a realtor. But I just needed all hands on deck, as much help as I could get. And they have been my backbone, these people are my backbone.

PA: I wonder if you can just give us a sense -- we watch the news and you see these pictures -- when you get there and now you're going through these jobs one by one, from a plumbing point of view, how bad is the situation in Texas?

AM: Oh my God, it is very bad. And I really just have.

ISAIAH PINNOCK: May I interject

AM: Yeah you can.

IP: I mean, I would say it is ridiculous. But what concerns me in the back of my mind is, you know, considering how bad it is here in Houston, just to think we hear about other plumbers stationed down in Austin and Dallas and the bigger cities -- it really concerns me about those little tiny towns in between. And I'm sure it's just mass devastation and it's ridiculous. It's everybody.

PA: I'm assuming, is that Isaiah?

IP: Yes.

AM: Yes. That's Isaiah.

PA: And you're a realtor -- so, I mean, realtors generally have a pretty good knowledge of how housing works. You might not be as specified as a plumber, but you could recognise how bad the problem was when you got there.

IP: Oh, yeah. When you hear people are going like two weeks without running water, and they are facing like three weeks until release, that sounds like a third-world problem to me.

PA: Right. And how many people have you guys been able to help since he got there?

IP: I mean, the reach has been growing and growing. We actually had to modify our approach. We decided to prioritise all the people with no running water and then people who do have water. Our initial approach would be to try to assess the problem over the phone, see if we could coach a handyman, somebody with a toolbag was privy with the tools. We give them a total breakdown, walk them through it on Facetime. And that's actually allowed us to reach more families so far on the list.

AM: But the day that we have to actually go to people's houses is 15.

PA: 15 people today?

AM: Yes.

IP: We're going to be working well into the night.

PA: And how similar are the problems? Like when you get there, is it kind of one thing that you got to do, you know, fix the burst pipe and then work from there? Or is it a bit of detective work?

AM: It varies.

IP: A lot of detective work.

PA: And I mean, I get that you guys are doing this because you want to give back and you want to help. But are you getting paid to do this?

IP: Well, to be honest with you, you were trying to keep the focus away from the financial side of things. But to kind of answer your question, where we see the most needs have been in the smaller communities, in the residential houses where a lot of these bigger plumbing companies they're flocking towards the bigger ticket repairs -- the apartment building or the commercial jobs or the three storey houses and stuff like that. We show up into some of these subdivisions where people are on fixed incomes and stuff like that -- so we've been meeting a lot of people halfway because we're not really out here to make money.

PA: How people have been reacting? Like when you tell them, "No, we drove down from New Jersey to come help you guys." What are the kinds of reactions you're hearing from people?

IP: They are brought to tears. They send us all God praises. It is really moving and it's really touching us that we're able to be a blessing to all these people.

PA: And if you guys are doing 15 clients a day and the work is as bad as it sounds, how much work is ahead of you? How long do you think you'll end up staying down in Texas and getting through this backlog?

IP: We know it's going to be a long road, but we've been in touch with a lot of plumbers across the country who have been talking about donating materials, coming over and volunteering their time, kind of dividing and conquering to cover as much ground as possible. But it's a long road ahead of us for sure.

PA: Andrew, your two year old son is travelling on this trip with you. He won't remember any of this. What is it that you'll tell him about this in future years as he grows up and comes to find out about this crazy story that he and his family went down to Texas to help people in the middle of a disaster?

AM: Well, my son is very very smart. I think that he will remember. Every time when we load our tools up -- not when we get home because we get home at crazy hours -- but when we load our tools up, my son is right there, like "Help. Can I help daddy?" He grabs the tools and puts them on the truck.

PA: Well, listen, you guys, I'm going to leave it there because I know you got a lot of work to do, but thank you for what you're doing and thanks for speaking with us today. We really appreciate it.

IP: Our pleasure. Have a nice day.

PA: You too.

CH: Andrew Mitchell is a plumber from New Jersey. Isaiah Pinnock is his brother in law. They drove to Texas to help people hit by the winter storm fix their plumbing problems. We reached them in Houston. And for more on this story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Orchestral Music]

Double Agent

CH: You have to imagine that the vetting process to become a secret agent with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, is pretty intense. Each job application thoroughly scrutinised, each candidate rigorously reviewed. But it seems that CSIS isn't quite as rigorous when it comes to vetting its own recruitment strategy. And if you're listening CSIS now would be a good time to turn off my microphone. Okay okay, still on. Yesterday, Canada's intelligence agency posted a tweet with a link to a job posting. It reads, "You could be the perfect spy. All you need is a cause." And that's pretty good -- full of all the intrigue and gravitas you would expect from a spy agency. The problem is that those pithy lines are from John le Carre's novel, A Perfect Spy. Now, there's nothing wrong with quoting a classic spy novel to draw attention to your spy job posting. But you might want to read the book you're quoting first. As many people were quick to point out on Twitter, A Perfect Spy is actually about a double agent who lies to his family, betrays his country, and ultimately -- spoiler alert -- takes his own life. After recruiting a wave of ridicule online, CSIS doubled back on its double agent post, claiming, "The tweet was a simple tribute to an acclaimed spy novelist who wrote many books and recently passed away. His novels inspired generations of individuals to consider careers as intelligence professionals." That is a novel excuse, but it's still hard to believe CSIS can't see their own counterintelligence.

[Music: Pop Music]

Part 2: Equality Act

Equality Act

Guest: Mark Takano

CH: This week in Washington, a number of members of Congress gave emotional speeches on the floor of the House on an issue deeply personal to them and their families. They were debating the Equality Act. If signed into law, it would protect people from being discriminated against based on sexual orientation and gender identity. It passed in the House yesterday, but it faces a tough road in the Senate. Mark Takano is a Democratic Congress member from California and a co-chair of the Congressional LGBTQ Equality Caucus. In 2012, he became the first openly gay person of colour elected to Congress. We reached him in D.C..

PA: Representative Takano, what was going through your head yesterday as you cast your vote in favour of the Equality Act?

MARK TAKANO: All of the activists and work of all the foot soldiers and actually members of Congress and allies before this day, people like John Lewis and the civil rights movement of the 1960s, being on the stage in 2012 of the inauguration of President Obama when he talked about the historical civil rights timeline dating back to Seneca Falls, Selma, Alabama, and Stonewall, New York, drawing a straight line through those sort of dates -- and so demonstrating that LGBT equality is definitely on the civil rights timeline. There was a feeling, I think, amongst members that this was a historic vote. And even though we passed the Equality Act a couple of years ago, it was still a moving and poignant moment.

PA: For our listeners in Canada who might not be as familiar with this -- what will the Equality Act change?

MT: What do you call the actual change is the fact that in 27 of our states, there are inconsistent protections. My own state of California has very robust protections for LGBTQ people. But in at least 27 states in our country, you can have issues related to fair housing, you can have issues related to being able to serve on a jury, credit applications might be affected in a negative way, access to equal education in schools whether that's K-12 education or at the university level. And what the Equality Act does is it adds gender identity and sexual orientation to the list of protected classes of people. Once this bill passes the Senate and signed into law, LGBTQ people will be treated as full citizens. They won't be second class citizens. As I said, on the floor of the House of Representatives, "It's time for we, the people, to include LGBTQ people."

PA: There has been intense criticism of the bill, attempts to derail this legislation in Congress and in fact, beyond. A lot of that linked to questions about religious freedom. I wonder what you say to those who argue this will infringe upon their rights.

MT: You know, religious freedom has been used in the furthest ways in the past. You know, certain theologies have posited that certain races are inferior. And religious beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, cannot be used as the refuge or the tools to discriminate against anyone. You know, you're free in America to hold whatever religious view you might have, but you don't have the right to have that religious view justify your denying somebody a hotel room that you're managing or you cannot deny selling a home to somebody on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity because of the religious views that you hold. There are still within the province of the law and in the Equality Act, there are certain exceptions already built in, in terms of, a church is not required to hire ministers, for example, to minister in the church that are not performing the theology or espousing the theology of that church -- that's simply not something that happens under this bill. But what does happen in this bill is that there's an expectation that every citizen of the United States has a right to be treated with dignity in all of the areas that I mentioned.

PA: You didn't have as many Republicans voting in favour as you had wanted. I think you had three who voted in favour of this when it passed the House. The last time, I think it was eight. What does it tell you that you're losing Republican numbers in favour of this bill?

MT: Well, there were Republicans who voted for this very same bill two years ago. And the bill has not changed. We've really not changed anything in the bill. What's changed are the minds of some of these Republicans who voted for it last time. What it tells me is that the politics of Washington and the extreme politics of Washington have prevailed over what we know through the public opinion polling is overwhelming support throughout the country in every state of the union. This regression of Republican support goes against what continues to be a very popular idea.

PA: This bill has already been killed by the Senate once. To get it through this time, you'd need 10 Republican senators to avoid a filibuster to vote in favour of it. Do you think you can get those numbers this time?

MT: What I will tell you is that the Republicans controlled the Senate last time and it was killed simply because the then Majority Leader Mitch McConnell refused to even bring it up for consideration. I am convinced that or I believe that there will either be filibuster reform or we'll find the ten votes that we need to get it passed cloture. This is an enormously popular idea. But if Republican senators want to quibble over certain nuances, and I don't really see there's any way to pare back, I think the very essential language of the bill as it's now written, I truly do believe that we will see reform of the supermajority that it takes.

PA: Well, we'll all be watching as this gets to the Senate. Maybe we can speak again when it does. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.

MT: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: That was Democratic Congressperson Mark Takano in Washington, D.C..

[Music: Guitar Music]

Jamal Khashoggi Update

CH: A new report today confirms what we've been told for a long time now about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi -- that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered it. That's the conclusion of a declassified US intelligence report that the Trump administration had long refused to release. Most of the evidence remains classified. But today's document doesn't just lay out what the Crown Prince knew about the Saudi journalist's assassination inside a consulate in Turkey. It says he bears responsibility for it. It's a powerful rebuke against the Crown Prince at a time when the Biden administration has said it hopes to, "recalibrate its relationship with the kingdom." Long before today's report, Agnes Callamard had settled on the same conclusions. The UN's special rapporteur on extrajudicial summary or arbitrary executions spoke with Carol in June of 2019 about her own findings.

AGNES CALLAMARD: My inquiry has demonstrated the responsibility of the state of Saudi Arabia. I think it's an important conclusion and I wish to insist upon it. Once the state's responsibility has been demonstrated, the next step is then to turn our attention to individual responsibilities. This was not a part of my work but in the context of my inquiry I came across evidence that was credible enough to demand that a follow-up criminal investigation be conducted into high level officials.

CO: So you're saying that the Crown Prince and another senior officials are possibly liable for the killing because you have quite damning forensic evidence, don't you? The most disturbing part of the forensic evidence are audio recordings of seven conversations that you don't have copies of -- but what appears to be within them are some pretty horrible details about how they went about -- Saudi officials -- how they discussed how to dispose of Mr. Khashoggi and how to eliminate his body. So what did you learn in the course of those conversations?

AC: Look what those conversations are demonstrating is that the murder of Mr. Khashoggi was planned, that their way of premeditation, whether or not the kidnapping of Mr. Khashoggi was also part of the plan that I could not be certain. It is a possibility that the murder was planned as a first option or as a second option. But there is absolutely no doubt that 48 (or) 24 hours before the commission of the crime, murder was already under preparation. The presence of the forensic doctor is an element of that premeditation. The fact that an hour before the actual murder took place that doctor was discussing how to dismember a body. All of that are contributing to the finding that the murder was premeditated.

CO: We're hearing from Saudi Arabia is that they say well there's nothing particularly new in your investigation which you found. And they are arguing that they have 11 people on trial and they have identified who they believe may be responsible and that they're dealing with it. What do you say to Saudi Arabia?

AC: You know I'm insisting that the measures they have taken up (are) way insufficient. I'm insisting on the fact that this was a crime committed by the state of Saudi Arabia. It is not acceptable that the Saudi authorities are continuing to reject the notion that the state itself is responsible for the killing. They are continuing to insist that it was a so-called rogue operation.

CO: But the most logical place -- the most logical party to do an investigation, to pursue this -- would be the United States given that he was a U.S. resident, he was working for an US news agency. And yet we know that the White House is very tight with the Saudi regime, and that President Trump has said I really want to believe what the Crown Prince says about not being involved in this. So what are you up against as far as having anyone pursue justice for Mr. Khashoggi?

AC: Look as far as the US is concerned, there are steps taken on the part of individuals -- private individuals -- to demand further investigation. So that's in terms of a legal mechanism. I agree that the administration has demonstrated that it may not be prepared to take the necessary action. But I believe in the independence of the American judicial system and I think -- and I know -- that if he's asked to intervene on the basis of a credible briefing and evidence, follow up steps will be taken.

CH: That was UN Special Rapporteur Agnes Callamard speaking with Carol in June of 2019.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Nigeria Schoolgirls Kidnapping

Guest: Osai Ojigho

CH: The story is all too familiar. Hundreds of Nigerian schoolgirls violently kidnapped from their beds, leaving their families desperate for answers. According to officials in Nigeria, the latest incident happened in the early hours of this morning at a government run school in Zamfara State. It follows the notorious kidnapping of almost 300 schoolgirls in Chibok in 2014. But it also follows dozens of other kidnappings, including one just last week in a neighbouring state. Osai Ojigho is a Nigerian human rights lawyer and the country director for Amnesty International. We reached her in Abuja.

PA: Ms. Ojigho, what is your understanding of what happened at the Government Girls Secondary School in Zamfara today?

OSAI OJIGHO: All we know is there were armed gunmen, and the children were taken into the nearest for in Zamfara. I think no one has come out to claim that they are responsible for the fact that girls who have abducted in school was just a problem that was going to happen eventually. The government has failed to provide safety for children in schools. That's the reality of people's lives in that part of the country right now.

PA: I want to dig into what you just said, that this is a problem that was going to happen eventually because just last week, 27 students and a number of others were kidnapped. And in December, more than 300 boys were kidnapped from a boarding school in Kankara. Why is this happening so often?

OO: Because things are getting worse in terms of the government's response, because a lot of focus has been on the Northeast because of the Boko Haram insurgency. What we found is that there are incidents in other areas in the north. And the government did not respond adequately. No one was ever arrested for committing these crimes. And we've just come out of lockdown for COVID-19. So if they are already gone -- that look for means, fast means, that's to make money. And it looks like the children they have abducted is so that they can get ransom or they can probably traffic them across the border. So the country has opened itself to criminal elements because three incidents in less than three months tells you something.

PA: I mean, to that point about the ransom, government officials insist that ransoms are not being paid. Do you believe them?

OO: It's very hard to believe the authorities right now, especially since some of the governors in northern Nigeria have been suggesting that an amnesty program for bandits should be on the table. So for people that are interested in amnesty, even if they pay, they wouldn't come out openly to admit it.

PA: And one of those amnesty programs is happening in the very state where these students were kidnapped today, right? So what does that tell us about the about the approach to this?

OO: It shows that the only way you can deal with criminal elements is arrest them, prosecute them, and make sure that it doesn't happen again. And that means preventive measures should be paramount and the investigative process should be transparent and everyone should have access to the law. So what they need to do is to get their act together and then mobilise the necessary resources because those would move security agents to those communities that need assistance and many of tend to be in rural areas. The irony is, as I speak, they have some sort of program whereby if you bring your weapons then you are absolved of all your crimes and they are able give you some funding to set up a business or something. So what has happened now has shown that despite the attempts of the government to give amnesty to bandits, it's not a solution.

PA: As you say, a lot of the country is just coming out of lockdown, there has been a rash of these kidnappings. How are Nigerians responding to these incidents now? I mean, I remember watching the reaction back in 2014 when those schoolgirls were kidnapped then. Is it different now?

OO: People, of course, are in shock. What I think is we've experienced is a lot of violent attacks in the last few years. So there's a bit of desensitisation to the violence. It's not as shocking as it was in 2014 when it had never happened before. There are stories on a regular basis of 10 people are kidnapped, one person is missing, you know -- people are used to hearing about this now. So the question is, which community is next? But at the same time, a lot of people lost their jobs during the lockdown, the economy has suffered a lot because our major income comes from oil. So there's a lot of people who are dealing with the daily grind. So we really need to see how we can mobilise people to be aware -- that if it is not addressed, it tends to move closer to home.

PA: I wonder how optimistic you are that these schoolgirls will be returned safely back to their families?

OO: For me, I think it depends on how quickly they can find where they are. If they can get the girls within the first week, then there's hope that many of them will be returned. From what we've heard from the authorities, they've mobilised additional security. So it will really depend on the next few days, how quickly they are able to identify them and stop them from crossing the border.

PA: All right, well, listen. Thank you for bringing us up to speed on all of this. We appreciate your help.

OO: Thank you for having me.

CH: Osai Ojigho is a human rights lawyer and the country director for Amnesty International in Nigeria. We reached her in Abuja.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Oxford AstraZeneca Vaccine

CH: Another COVID-19 vaccine is on the way. In Ottawa today, Health Canada announced final approval for AstraZeneca's Oxford developed vaccine. It's the one that doesn't require super powerful freezers, so it should be easier to get it to people in hard-to-get-to places. The Trudeau government has ordered more than 20-million doses with the first to arrive in the next few days. And it's worth remembering how far off today's news seemed last May. That's when the Oxford vaccine team announced they were expanding their human trials. Carol asked the principal researcher, Adrian Hill, how they would answer the all important question of whether it works.

AH: Absolutely. Well, actually, being safe as the most important.

CO: Yes, I suppose!

AH: Part of that comes with our work. And that is harder, of course. Now, when you say it's safe, it has been safe in 550, or so, vaccines, which is a reasonable number, but we'll be much happier after we've vaccinated another five-thousand, which is the plan for the Phase Three trial. Where, of course, as well as measuring cases of COVID, we look at safety as well.

CO: But in determining if it works, how do you do that? Will you expose those people who have had this test vaccine, will you expose them to the virus?

AH: No, there is an idea around that you might do that sort of study where you would deliberately infect people. No, nobody's doing that at the moment. But it is being discussed. No. Instead, we let people go back to their everyday life. And sadly, people do, of course, get exposed, which is why we need a lot of people in the trial. Five-thousand of those will get vaccinated with COVID vaccine. And five thousand with an irrelevant control vaccine. And of course, what we do is compare the number of cases of COVID in the people who got the irrelevant vaccine, which hopefully, would be higher than those who got the COVID vaccine.

CO: Have you ever been under this much pressure to perform?

AH: I don't think so. There's never been as much interest in what we're doing, I think that the pressure is attenuated a little bit by the fact that there are so many vaccine programs. I think there must be ten in the clinic now. And there are two others coming along that are the same type of vaccine that we're using, another adenoviral vector. And our guess is that if our vaccine works, and we will probably be the first to finish, then other vaccines will work too. And we may be able to help those out. Because the real challenge that's logistically very daunting is just making enough vaccine for everybody who will want it, particularly if we finish first. And we're not talking about millions of doses. We're talking about billions of doses. And very importantly, our new industrial partner, AstraZeneca, has committed to that sort of capacity. So they haven't made a billion doses yet. You can't do that in a month, but they have reserved manufacturing capacity that would allow you to go to that scale if the vaccine works, which is fantastic.

CH: That was Adrian Hill, the principal researcher for the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, speaking with Carol last May. Today, Health Canada gave the vaccine its stamp of approval.

[Music: Calm Music]

Site C Dam

CH: A lot of people have called for the Site C hydroelectric dam to be cancelled. And today those people are very disappointed. During a press conference, British Columbia Premier John Horgan and BC Energy Minister Bruce Ralston announced that the beleaguered and controversial hydro project would be completed with a new 16-billion dollar price tag -- that's up from the previous 10-billion dollar estimate. Here's some of what Minister Ralston said today.

BRUCE RALSTON: Completing the project is the best option to protect ratepayers, British Columbians, and the fiscal plan. With the information available to us now, we feel there is a path forward for the Site C project. The reports from John France and Kaare Hoeg have assured us there's a safe and reliable fix to the geotechnical issues. Peter Milburn has provided us with 17 recommendations to improve project oversight, and commercial and risk management. We have accepted all his recommendations and indeed are implementing some of them already. Our decision to continue Site C is also based on the stark financial realities. When comparing the impacts of completing the project versus those of terminating it. Site C is over half built and employs 4,500 workers. Cancelling the project at this point would immediately leave British Columbians on the hook for at least 10-billion dollars, with no asset to show for it. That amount of debt cannot be spread out over decades, like the cost of completing the project, but would have to be taken on immediately by taxpayers or ratepayers. In either case, the impacts would be severe and would deal a crippling blow to people and to BC Hydro when we are trying to build back lives and businesses from the impacts of the pandemic. And at the end of the day, we would still need to invest in new sources of power to meet BC's future energy needs and our climate targets.

CH: That was Bruce Ralston speaking earlier today about the Site C dam project. He's BC's Minister of Energy, Mines, and Petroleum Resources.

[Music: Calm Music]

Part 3: Virginia Death Penalty

Virginia Death Penalty

Guest: Scott Surovell

CH: For centuries, Virginia has executed more prisoners than any other US state. But this week lawmakers there called the death penalty. That makes Virginia the 23 US state to stop executions and the first in the south. And supporters of the ban hope it could set a national precedent. Scott Surovell is the Democratic state senator who sponsored the Senate bill. We reached him in Richmond, Virginia.

PA: Senator Surovell, how does it feel to see your bill become law?

SCOTT SUROVELL: You know, I'm really pleased with how long it was a long journey the Democrats took, the majority in our chamber -- we're actually in both chambers in the governor's mansion last year for the first time in 27 years. And I thought we had a good opportunity to get some big things done. And I was able to talk to folks, get them comfortable with the idea of addressing the capital punishment problem and the session fortunately able to hold all the votes together. Governor Northam said he supported it and that made a big difference to a couple of our members who were kind of teetering on the edge and we got it done.

PA: How has your own past as a criminal defence lawyer informed your stance on how you view the death penalty?

SS: Well I've seen the criminal justice system at work, mainly in misdemeanours and lower felonies as opposed to murder cases. And I've seen the criminal justice system and its failings -- just with little cases. You can only imagine in big cases when passions run high and you're dealing with somebody who has been killed and murder and juries can make mistakes. And the whole issue that nobody really has an answer for is: How can you justify putting somebody to death who might be innocent when studies have shown 1 out of 10 people who are convicted of capital murder are innocent? And so being a criminal defence lawyer, I've seen the problems in the system. And we can't have a punishment that's permanent, that can't be taken back.

PA: Some of your Republican colleagues in Virginia, were going to support this bill, but they change course after your party rejected their attempts to guarantee that people convicted of aggravated murder would never leave prison. Why weren't Democrats willing to make that compromise?

SS: You know, there were a few members that wanted us to enact a mandatory minimum life sentence for conviction of aggravated murder. And because there's about 15 categories of aggravated murder, that would have added about 14 new mandatory minimum punishments to our code. And our caucus would like to get rid of all mandatory minimums instead of creating some new ones. Every crime has its own set of circumstances. Every victim is different. Every situation is different. And we felt like it was very important for a judge to continue to have that discretion to fashion a sentence that's appropriate for the case instead of us sitting in Richmond deciding what the sentence should be in all those cases that are brought. And mandatory minimum sentences also just often tend to be used to force people to plead to things, often things that they are actually innocent of. And we just didn't want to continue to exacerbate the mandatory minimum problem.

PA: If my maths is right, Virginia hasn't executed anyone since 2017, I think. And no new death sentences have been imposed in the state since 2011. Given that, why was this move still so important?

SS: Well, in the last five years, even though no jury has actually rendered a capital punishment verdict, the actual charge has been brought about 65 times over five years -- so about once every month there's a prosecutor somewhere in Virginia that asks for capital punishment as part of a case. And so even though a jury hasn't actually rendered the verdict, it's still used. And again, there's sometimes people who think they have a valid defence. But when they're faced with the possibility of capital punishment, they'll plead guilty to avoid rolling the dice on that.

PA: Do you have particular examples that stand out to you of exonerations or people that were wrongly convicted that speak to the necessity of this?

SS: Yeah, so there's been several in Virginia. The most famous one is a man named Earl Washington Jr., who came within 12 days of being executed in Virginia when he was exonerated by DNA evidence. He had a very low IQ and he actually confessed -- he was very suggestible given his disability. And the DNA showed he had nothing to do with the offence and he came within 12 days of being executed. There was also a group called the Martinsville Seven -- it was seven African-American young men who were convicted of rape back in the 1940s in Martinsville. And all seven of them were executed for rape. It's probable that about five of them are probably innocent, although it's impossible to prove that by DNA today. But the evidence pretty strongly suggests they were inappropriately convicted. And across the United States, there's 174 people who've been on death row who have now been exonerated largely because of DNA. So it's a nationwide problem, not just a problem in Virginia.

PA: I wonder how or even whether the racial reckoning that's been happening across the United States in these last 12 months, how has that fuelled your party's work on this issue?

SS: That's a big part of it. You know, the death penalty in Virginia has been used way more often against African-Americans, especially when there's White victims. Also in Virginia, there was a massive spike in government executions after Virginia basically started going after lynching. There's a direct correlation between the end of lynching in Virginia and the beginning of really ramping up of capital punishment by the government. So there's no question there's a racial connection to it. And I think that given what's going on after the George Floyd murder last year, people are a lot more sensitive to the disparities that we have in our criminal justice system, both historical and ongoing. And capital punishment is probably the most sort of visible vestige of that. And I think that there's no question in my mind, at least part of this discussion for a lot of people is sort of getting some kind of reconciliation when it comes to racial justice, not only in the US, but especially here in Virginia where for so long it's really been an issue.

PA: What do you think this will mean for the future of the death penalty elsewhere in the United States?

SS: I think a lot of us are hopeful that with Virginia making a move here being the state that's executed, the second most people since the 1970s and the most people ever of any government in the United States, that it will help to get more states to start to take this step. Right now, there's only 22 states that have removed capital punishment from their books. But I think it says a lot when a state like Virginia does it.

PA: All right. We're going to have to leave it there. But I really appreciate you making time for us today.

SS: Thanks for checking in.

CH: Scott Surovell is a Democratic state senator in Virginia who sponsored a bill to abolish the death penalty there. We reached him in Richmond.

[Music: Synth Music]

Abel Bosum

CH: For Abel Bosum, it's a bit like being reunited with a long lost relative. That's what the Cree Grand Chief said this week when it was announced that a beaded hood would be permanently returned to Eeyou Istchee, in Quebec. The artefact is known as the Gunner hood. And it's been in the possession of the Lechine Museum since the 1940s. Grand Chief Bosum spoke about the history of the beaded hood during this week's announcement.

ABEL BOSUM: As you all know, this beautiful beaded hood, which has important ceremonial significance for our Cree people, has a direct connection to the Gunner family of Mistissini, and is believed to have been created by Jane Gunner in and around 1850. In the background are two people, Dinah Gunner and Trifona Gunner -- these are the granddaughter and the great granddaughter of Jane Gunner. As moving as it is, they'll have this historic object returned to its family and returned to its home in Eeyou Istchee. The significance and the meaning of this act of repatriation is that it returns our stories to us. This object and similar objects would have been scattered throughout the world's museums, and personal collections do not exist in isolation. This beaded hood is embedded in rich cultural history, our rich social landscape, and our rich universe of Cree history. In this sense, this object, this beaded hood, speaks to us in a way that it cannot speak to anyone else. For many other people, it's just an object, certainly a beautiful object. But for us, for the Cree people, it is full of meaning that we can feel meaning that touches us in a very deeply. It is an object that connects us with our ancestors and which connects us with our ancient cultural tradition. By repatriating objects such as these, we ourselves become more whole. Repatriation of our cultural treasure is a profound act of decolonisation. As we in Eeyou Istchee have been on a journey to recreate our original sovereignty in the greatest extent possible in the contemporary setting. This act of repatriation is a radical step in contributing to our becoming whole again.

CH: That was Cree Grand Chief Abel Bosum speaking during a press conference about a beaded hood that is finally being repatriated.

[Music: Synth Music]

Quirks and Quarks Promo: Angela Saini

CH: Tomorrow on Quirks and Quarks, a special episode called "Black in Science: The Legacy of Racism in Science and How Black Scientists are Moving the Dial." One of the subjects they'll be delving into is how the modern concept of race was born. It's a surprisingly new idea. During the Enlightenment in the 18th century, early scientists began to systematically categorise the world's living organisms. And as they worked, they turned their eyes to humanity. The result was scientifically flawed and historically tragic. Here's writer and journalist Angela Saini.

ANGELA SAINI: It was part of what they were doing anyway in terms of drawing up taxonomies of the natural world. So when they were categorising plants and animals in order to understand them better, they looked at humans and thought maybe we can do the same with us. And this wasn't particularly scientific in the beginning. To a large extent, it reflected the kind of political realities of the time. There were certainly assumptions around intellectual superiority that certain races were smarter than others. And this wasn't just informed by the politics -- it also informed the politics of the time. So it was used -- these pseudoscientific ideas about human difference we used to justify slavery and colonialism, to justify the mistreatment of other people under this assumption that they were fundamentally different to begin with, that they weren't up to the same level of modernity and humanness as other groups.

CH: That was Angela Saini. And to hear more, tune into Quirks and Quarks tomorrow at noon.

[Music: Flute Music]

Exoplanet Student Discovery

Guest: Jasmine Wright

CH: Not to brag, but when I was in high school, I could name as many as four planets. Now that seems a bit less impressive because two high school students in Massachusetts dove deep into a pile of scientific data and discovered some planets. And now their work has been published in the Astronomical Journal. Jasmine Wright is one of those students. She goes to Bedford High School and we reached her in Bedford, Massachusetts.

PA: Jasmine, how many planets outside of Earth's solar system did you discover?

JASMINE WRIGHT: I discovered four exoplanets.

PA: How exciting was that?

JW: That was incredibly exciting. We really did not expect to make such a big discovery and even to have such a big news come out of it. [Chuckles]

PA: I bet. That now I want you to paint a picture for me about how you went about the research, because when I first heard about this, I envisaged you sitting at a giant telescope looking off into space. That's not the case, is it?

JW: No, it's actually not. So we used TESS, which is basically a big telescope up in the sky that takes pictures of all the stars in our galaxy. And it uses a thing called transit method, which is how we detect exoplanets. And essentially it measures when the stars dim, because if you think about it this way, if you think about our solar system and our sun and when the Earth orbits around the sun and it passes in front of it, then the sun dims a little bit because there's a celestial body passing in front of it. So that's how we kind of go about looking for it. And it's really all just data points. We looked through twp different archives that had like thousands of data points. And my partner and I split it up -- he looked at one and I looked at the other. And then we found basically ideal characteristics such as the radius of the planets and how far it is away from the sun and points like that to kind of pick this system, which is quite TOI-1233.

PA: How did you even get into this? I mean, in high school, I was barely staying awake through English class. [Laughter] How did you get started to a place where you're discovering exoplanets and getting published in scientific journals?

JW: Well, actually, so the program is at the Harvard Centre for Astrophysics, and I heard about it through some family friends, and they said, "Oh, you should get involved, you should try to apply." So I applied. And typically they actually don't accept students outside of the Cambridge district. But I was one of the only ones actually that got accepted.

PA: Okay. So tell me about these planets. What do we know about them? They're not all that far away, are they?

JW: No, they are about 200 light years away. We know that its star is very similar to ours -- almost pretty much the same. And it's four exoplanets. But they're radiuses -- they're fairly small planets. One is a Super Earth, which is the innermost planet. It's about 60 percent larger than our Earth. And then three sub Neptunes, which are slightly smaller than Neptune -- the name basically says it all. And basically, after discovering it, we kind of start to look at -- we call it follow up. We start to look at all like: What's its atmosphere made out of? What could possibly be on it? Like, why its atmosphere this way? What elements are in it? And things like that.

PA: And it's those similarities tp our solar system that make it such a unique finding, have I got that right?

JW: Yeah, in a way. And it's also because no one typically finds four at a time. Usually you find one exoplanet and then you'll find possibly another later on while you're looking. And there was actually a fifth one found in our system. So now it's five exoplanets.

PA: First you find them, then you end up getting peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal. How did it go from the discovery to the publication?

JW: So we initially made the discovery, I believe, December 2019. And then we started writing late January, early February for the paper. And basically the paper just details everything that we did, what we used, what instruments were used, where we got the data from. We finished it around April and it was submitted for peer review, which then finished peer review in December and then it got published this January.

PA: You're supposed to be in volleyball practise right now. What are your teammates saying about this?

JW: My teammates are all incredibly impressed when they found out about it. My entire school is just going crazy about it. I'm all over like my Bedford School -- Bedford School News and my teammates are like "Yeah! Go do that interview with Canada." [Laughter] And yeah, it's pretty cool.

PA: When you made the discovery and you sat down at the kitchen table and said, "Hey, mom and dad, this thing happen." Be honest now, did your parents even really understand what you're talking about?

JW: Not even a little bit. I told them and they were like, "Oh that's cool." And my mom didn't know until I started getting all these interviews that actually my group was the only one to find four planets. She thought everyone was finding for planets. So she just thought it was a normal thing for everyone to find a planet. [Laughs].

PA: Yeah, no, not normal.

JW: [Laughs] Yeah. So she was just kind of not impressed until I started getting all these interviews. And my dad didn't even know what was going on. [Laughs].

PA: That's hilarious. Have you chosen your field? What do you want to be when you grow up?

JW: My ultimate goal is to end up at NASA as an astrophysicist.

PA: NASA actually put this up on their page today or this week.

JW: They did? [Laughs]

PA: I think so. Yeah. I was reading something that NASA is talking about your work already.

JW: I've not seen that. [Laughs in excitement]

PA: Well, listen, one thing at a time -- and the next thing at a time is get back to volleyball practise. So listen, thank you for speaking with us. Congratulations on your discovery and what just amazing work.

JW: Thank you. Thank you so much.

PA: Have a great day.

JW: You as well.

CH: Jasmine Wright is a student at Bedford High School. We reached her in Bedford, Massachusetts.

[Music: Brass Music]

Anancy And The Turtle

CH: Most spiders weave webs to catch their next meal, but one spider sits at the centre of a web and spins yarns. For centuries, people have passed down folk tales of Anansi the Spider, a character who originated in Ghana. A trickster who's considered the king of stories. Annette Pateman grew up hearing these stories from her father. She's now a writer in Thunder Bay, Ontario. She has just published a children's book called Anancy and the Turtle. She spoke with CBC Thunder Bay about the book today.

ANNETTE PATEMAN: Anancy is an interesting character, and he's mischievous, he's a trickster kind of character. And his stories are told via oral storytelling in West Africa. My dad told a lot of Anansi stories. He was a great oral storyteller. And this was the one that came to mind when I sat down to write an Anansi story. And I did it really in memory of my father. My father passed away in 2015. I wanted to remember him in some way. And writing down one of these stories was one of the ways I could do that. Also, I'm aware that we are on Turtle Island and maybe that also was in the back of my mind when I sat down to write this particular story, because Anansi has lots of relationships with lots of different animals and there are so many different stories to tell. I think one of the reasons that Anansi tales survived and came to Jamaica where my family come from, is because they tell a story of endurance really and survival. So you have a small animal compared to an elephant, compared to a lion, a tiger and most of the other animals, even a turtle. And yet in Anansi stories, this small spider creature tends to overcome and outwit these larger animals. So the enslaved Africans brought these stories from Ghana in particular, where we think that they originated from. And so we've seen Anansi stories that were told to one another by the enslaved Africans. And we think that they survived so well because they gave the enslaved African people hope. So in telling these stories where something we call something smaller, something without much power could overcome a more powerful system, it gave the enslaved Africans some hope.

CH: That was Annette Pateman speaking with CBC reporter Cathy Alex in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Ms. Pateman is the author of the new children's book Anancy and the Turtle.

[Music: Calm Music]

Personality Traits

CH: As every three spined stickleback knows, it's not the size of your spines that matters, it's the way you wiggle them. And now human scientists know that too. New research published in the journal Ecology and Evolution shows that the way a stickleback swims says a lot about who it is as a person, as a fish person, as a fish. Or to put it another way, its swimming style reveals who it is not as a representative of its whole species, but as an individual. A team of biologists and mathematicians recorded and analysed the specific swimming styles of 15 sticklebacks, which are small golden fish with dark spots that can be anywhere from three centimetres to eight centimetres long. And the human experts found that each fish's movements were highly specific and constituted a kind of personality trait. Now, it's not new to find a variety of personalities amongst fish of the same kind. Some are bold, some are more cautious, some delicious. But this is the first time those personality traits have been linked to the way the animal moves. One of the researchers likened it to a signature -- distinct enough they could recognise a fish by its movements alone. Scientists say that finding will help them better measure the role personality plays not just in sticklebacks, but they surmise in wild animals of all sorts. In the meantime, I guess this is a window into a sticklebacks mind and soul. Now we can tell whether it's the school bully or a fish out of water.

February 26, 2021 Episode Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode