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The AIH Transcript for January 8, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Just cause. A year after Iranian missiles took the lives of his wife and his daughter and all the other passengers on Flight PS-752, our guest says his fight for justice gives him the strength to bear his loss.

CH: The blame after the storm, after the stunning security lapses that failed to prevent this week's attack in Washington, we'll ask a former chief of Capitol Police what he thinks went wrong.

CO: Exit interview. To his amazement, a U.S. law professor finds that his pet constitutional amendment, the 25th, is suddenly being considered as a real possibility to remove Donald Trump from power days before the end of his term.

CH: Out in the cold. With Quebec's new COVID curfew looming, it's still not clear where thousands of Montrealers without homes are meant to go.

CO: Against tall odds. Giraffes are usually the tallest mammals on earth, which is why scientists did a double take when they found some individuals who didn't seem to measure up.

CH: And paradise by the dashboard light banter. If you're a fan of 80s TV, get your chequebook. David Hasselhoff is auctioning off his co-star from Knight Rider, the smart aleck 80s TransAm known as "Kitt." As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that guesses that's one way to bestow a knight-hood.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Grieving husband and father searching for answers 1 year after Iran shot down Flight PS752

Flight 752 anniversary

Guest: Hamed Esmaeilion

CH: It's been one year since 176 people walked onto Ukrainian Airlines flight PS-752 in Tehran and one year since two Iranian missiles struck their plane, taking every life on board. Omid Arsalani lost his sister, his one year old niece, and his brother-in-law that morning. In the hours that followed with the cause of the crash still unknown, Mr. Arsalani old Carol how he got the news.

OMID ARSALANI: At about 3:00 in the morning, I got a call from my brother. He came over to the house, my house at 3:45-ish and told me in person that my sister, and my niece, and her husband were on that flight and the flight had crashed. I asked him if anybody made -- he said no, everybody on board was dead. Nobody made it out of it.

CO: And when did you last speak with your sister?

OMID ARSALANI: Yesterday morning. She sent me a message on Instagram. It's a little postcard. It says, if you have a brother and only a brother can love you like a father, bug you like a sister, and take care of you like a mother -- if you have a brother and you love them, send them this. And she sent me that. That's the last thing I got for my sister -- a text message.

CH: That was Omid Arsalani speaking with Carol from Toronto one year ago today. Hamed Esmaeilion's wife Parisa, and their nine year old daughter, Reera, were also on the flight. Mr. Esmaeilion is the spokesperson for the families of 752. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Hamed I want to thank you, first of all, for making time for us on what must be a very difficult day.

HAMED ESMAEILION: Thanks for having me. It's a very difficult day. It's a very very difficult day. It's not easy for others, I think, to imagine the pain and suffering that all of these families, me included, are going through.

CO: Can I ask you, how are you remembering your wife and your daughter today?

HE: We have a memorial right now going on on our website and a YouTube channel and everything. But for me myself -- and just yesterday I put a monument at the graveyard, and this is like an art piece designed by an Iranian artist and it took a lot of time, like 10-11 months to set it up. And when they installed yesterday, I could go there and cry like after months of not crying because I didn't have time to think about them. Yesterday, finally, I had some personal moments for myself.

CO: I know you said elsewhere how you have been so focused on getting answers, not just for yourself, but for all those families. So I know it's hard to feel those emotions, but I'm happy for you that you were able to have that moment when you could cry.

HE: Yes. I think the majority of the family members are like me. We have lost a lot of personal moments for this morning and for this grief, and that's because of the case. If it was like a technical failure or something like that, you would say, okay, they will do the investigation and they will find out the results or the reason for the crash. But when we know that all of them, 176 people, were murdered in cold blood, and when you see this psychological war against families. So I'm not alone in this, there are 140 families with me.

CO: And I know you've been leading this and trying to get answers not just from Iran, but to see countries, other countries put pressure on Iran. How much success have you had?

HE: 12 months passed and Iran has had enough time to come clean. You know, when there's a technical failure, they need to find exactly what happened, but this is not. That was like three minutes flight. And 365 days we suffered to know about three minutes. And that's not fair. I think, you know, the world and the international community, they have given enough time or more than enough to Iran.

CO: Do you think the international community is doing enough to pressure Iran to deliver the answers?

HE: I don't think so. Look at ICAO, International Civil Aviation Organisations. And when we talk to them, they say they have to stay neutral. But in my opinion, I don't want them to be a judge, I want them to be a good police. When Iran breaches all these regulations, you have to address them at the moment they happen.

CO: If you could ask questions of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, what's the most important question that you would put to them?

HE: I had a meeting with them last week after one year crying for a meeting. We said at the beginning that we are not here to be convinced because your Twitter account has considered this as a personal pursuit for justice -- that's what they told me. And this is not a personal pursuit for justice. This is something that five countries are involved, 176 families are involved and the whole world is involved.

CO: To get an answer like that must just burn you -- I mean, after everything you've done, what do you represent all the countries who are trying to get the answers and to get that is a response.

HE: Yes, because when we talk to some authorities, they tell us that you get emotional or your families are emotional. We are not emotional. We don't talk about emotions. We talk about facts. Just facts. Just look at what happened. Who goes to a crash site and lots all the belongings of the passengers? Who takes a wedding ring from the finger of a deceased woman? Who does that? Who takes a doll from the hands of a kid? These are facts. And when somebody sends me a picture of my wife's OHIP card that was found in July, seven months later, on the crash site by a totally stranger -- so I said, what kind of investigation they're doing, when they're intimidating the families, when they're harassing the families, what kind of investigation are you doing? And what are you doing here? So that was my point to ICAO and to any authority that I see that these pressures should be stopped you know, on the families, first of all. Iran is the one that should be pressured. This is for the future too. No airplane is safe passing a corridor for Iran.

CO: We know that Tehran offered you and the other families offered you money -- 150,000 dollars to you and the other families. What does that offer represent in your mind?

HE: As one of the family members said, it was like a slap in the face because, first of all, nobody can put a price on them. But if they want to go for compensation, what does it mean before finding the truth when we don't know what happened to them and why? So if we come and say, okay, thank you, Iran, for offering this and accept that -- it's insulting, it just doesn't have any meaning for us. And I'm happy that Mr. Goodell said Canada is rejecting this and that's the right position, I think.

CO: How much can you just tell us a bit about your daughter, Reera, she was nine years old?

HE: Yeah, she was. Nine years, seven months and 16 days. And this cruelty, this unjust to her and to the children, it's unbelievable. You know, they were coming back here to go to school next day. I can't pass the schools -- people with their children hand-to-hand going to schools -- because of this. And my daughter, I talked to her teacher yesterday after a year, and both of us were crying -- still crying, people are still crying.

CO: What was she like? What was Reera like?

HE: Reera, was a funny girl. Cute. The most precious thing I had in my life. And if she was here today probably was like "Dad you're talking too much." [Chuckles] Or she was telling me all the time that don't sing in the car, okay? Just go for a pop music. Yes. So she was on top of things and I so miss her...it's unbelievable. I can't believe she's gone.

CO: And your wife, Parisa, what was she like?

HE: Parisa, I knew her for 25 years, we were college sweethearts and we were students in university in Tabriz -- a part of Iran. So she was my best friend for 20 years. Four days ago, it was 20 years of our marriage. We wanted to have a big celebration on 20 years and because of COVID-19, probably we couldn't have it. But that was the plan for 20 years: wear your wedding suit and she wears her wedding dress, and show Reera how we have changed and she probably laughs at us. Parisa was a very dedicated person, very good dentist, hardworking, knowledgeable person. And one of the things that really bothers me is that Parisa didn't know anything about Iran's attacks on the US bases in Iraq. After months, after days, I talked to my sister-in-law because they were together, you know, we couldn't talk and I said this, did she know? Did she really know? And she says, no, she didn't know. She was not a news person. But I know she was checking Canadian news all the time. And if there was a travel advisory or if there was some warning for the passengers that the area is a conflict zone and don't fly, she wouldn't have. And, you know, a majority of those passengers wouldn't be on that plane.

CO: There's nothing you can do now about those regrets Hamed but I really appreciate that you'd share with us memories of Parisa and Reera. I hope the next time that we speak it's because we're speaking about you finally getting the answers you so deserve to get.

HE: Hopefully, hopefully, you know, there's a little light at the end of this tunnel and the rest of it is just darkness. And without justice, without finding the truth, we won't rest.

CO: Hamed thank you.

HE: You're welcome.

CH: Hamed Esmaeilion's wife, Parisa, and their daughter, Reera, were killed when Iranian missiles shot down a Ukrainian Airlines flight 752. We reached him in Toronto. You can find more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih. And we're hoping to hear from the International Civil Aviation Organisation on Monday about how they've been dealing with requests from the victims families, as well as how international accountability is decided.

[Music]

Trump 25th amendment

Guest: Paul Campos

CH: There's no doubt in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's mind about who was responsible for sparking Wednesday's violent riots in Washington, D.C.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: What we witnessed was an assault on democracy by violent rioters incited by the current president and other politicians. As shocking, deeply disturbing and frankly saddening as that event remains, we've also seen this week that democracy is resilient in America, our closest ally and neighbour. Democracy is not automatic, it takes work every day. About what a real accomplishment it is to maintain a political system in which the losing side gracefully concedes and in which rival political parties between elections work together for the common good.

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau speaking from the front steps of Rideau Cottage today. In Washington, politicians are taking that kind of condemnation a step further. The U.S. Constitution's 25th Amendment was on everybody's lips this week, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's. The amendment is the easiest route to removing Donald J. Trump as president. And after Trump supporters stormed the Capitol on Wednesday, a lot of people are wondering if the country can afford to wait nearly two weeks until Mr. Trump is forced to vacate the office. Meanwhile, the 47th president released a video last night conceding the election, finally, and condemning the rioters at Capitol Hill. Paul Campos is a law professor at the University of Colorado and an expert on the 25th Amendment. We reached him in Boulder, Colorado.

CO: Professor Campos, what's it like for you to hear the 25th Amendment on the lips of practically everyone in Washington this week?

PAUL CAMPOS: Well, it's very gratifying in a sense, because I've been writing about this for a couple of years, and I even published an academic article a couple of years ago speculating that the lame duck period of Trump's presidency could feature the sorts of circumstances that would justify invoking the 25th Amendment. So, I mean, I'm not happy to see that prediction borne out because it's obviously a disaster for the United States. But nevertheless, it is striking that the 25th Amendment is there to deal with extreme circumstances such as this one.

CO: And what is it? The events on Wednesday, of course, extreme and very disturbing. What is the role that Mr. Trump played in all of that, that could possibly trigger the 25th Amendment?

PC: The 25th Amendment, allows a president to be removed by the vice president if the vice president and a majority of the cabinet decide that the president is unfit to serve in office because of some extreme circumstance of medical, psychological or otherwise. The logistics of it are such that the vice president can only exercise that power for a maximum of 21 days unless Congress decides to allow the vice president to remain in that role indefinitely. But with only 12 days remaining in President Trump's presidency at this point, Pence and a majority of the cabinet could unilaterally remove Trump from office for the remainder of his term.

CO: Now, the 25th Amendment is something that was ratified in the 1960s, it was in the wake of the of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. What did the lawmakers see as reasons why it should be invoked?

PC: The base of amongst the ratifiers make it clear that they intentionally wrote the language in quite general terms because they did not try to specify or anticipate all the circumstances that would lead to the conclusion that the president was unfit to continue in office. They had some core kinds of cases in mind. For example, unsuccessful assassination attempt that would leave the president so physically disabled that the president wouldn't be able to do his or her job, you know, a kidnapping, you know, something along those lines that would lead to, you know, a noncontroversial conclusion that the president wasn't in a position to continue in the office, at least at present.

CO: Okay. Now we know that many people who observed Donald Trump in these days say that he seems to be unhinged, that he was "losing it." But many also say that he isn't any different than he's been for the past four years. So what is it about Wednesday that would conclude that this is the time that Mr. Pence had to step in and invoke the 25th Amendment?

PC: I think what's different about Wednesday was that the behaviour was so extreme and outrageous, essentially egging on a violent mob to attack Congress while Congress was certifying the electoral victory of Joe Biden -- it was so shocking and so utterly beyond the pale that a large number of people all across the political spectrum concluded that Trump had to be removed immediately. And what I was pointing out is that the only way to remove Trump genuinely, immediately, is through the 25th Amendment. He could, of course, be impeached and convicted, but that is a process that at a minimum would take several days and has the market disadvantage that Trump would remain president while the process was going on, while the way the 25th Amendment works is if Pence were to transmit a letter to Congress, Pence becomes the acting president as soon as that letter is transmitted and Trump is stripped of all of his presidential powers. What a lot of people are speculating about in the United States right now is that what's going on is what is being called a kind of soft 25th Amendment where Trump's orders or lack or failure to issue orders are to some extent being ignored by the command structure. So, for example, when the National Guard was called in to deal with the riot, it appears that Trump himself did not give that order, but rather it was given by Pence even though Pence isn't actually in the command and control structure of the U.S. military.

CO: Being a soft 25th Amendment isn't all that reassuring, is it? Because he then still has the levers of power, he still can do something. So what would you fear the most that he might do in these remaining days?

PC: As somebody remarked the other day, you know, Trump was banned from Twitter for, I think, 24 hours. And somebody remarked that it seems a little bit incongruous that somebody isn't sufficiently stable to have access to their Twitter account, but is sufficiently stable to have access to the United States nuclear arsenal. That I think sort of captures how bizarre the situation is. And I think what people fear the most would be some kind of foreign intervention, conflagration, war, what have you, followed closely by some attempt to invoke authoritarian emergency powers, you know, in the United States. And so here we are just hanging on, trying to figure out how to get through the next 12 days without further catastrophes unfolding.

CO: And did last night's video that was made by Mr. Trump, did that reassure you at all that he might stabilise for these remaining days?

PC: No, because this is a very striking pattern with him. He goes over some line that people said couldn't be crossed, et cetera, he becomes frightened when he becomes recognised that he's actually losing sort of core critical political support, and then he releases what in this context basically looks like a hostage video in which he's, you know, mouthing things that he obviously doesn't believe, that completely contradicts everything he said 12 hours earlier. You know, that's not reassuring at all, especially since his pattern in this regard is to simply reverse himself within hours, which in my understanding is that he's pretty much already done. So it's an absolute crisis situation. It's a constitutional crisis. It's a failure of the basic governmental structure of the United States. And it's something that people around the world are understandably very concerned about.

CO: Professor Campos we will leave it there. Each day it gets even more extraordinary as this unfolds. And I appreciate that you can shed some light for us. Thank you.

PC: Thank you for having me.

CH: Paul Campos is a law professor at the University of Colorado. He's in Boulder.

[Music]

Knight Rider

CH: On September 26th, 1982, a major television event introduced two strangers who would become unlikely friends. One was a crime fighting operative employed by an eccentric billionaire, and the other was a talking car.

DAVID HASSELHOFF: All right. Might as well put on some music. All these weird gadgets, you'd think they give you a radio.

KITT: What would you like to hear?

DAVID HASSELHOFF: What the hell was that?!

KITT: Do you wish further information on Silicon Valley?

DAVID HASSELHOFF: Hell no, I want to know who you are and how you're listening in.

KITT: There's no reason for increased volume. I am scanning your interrogatives quite satisfactorily. I am the voice of Knight Industry 2000's microprocessor, KITT for easy reference. KITT if you prefer.

DAVID HASSELHOFF: I don't prefer. And once more, I don't intend to drive around in a car that talks back to me. So either Devon pulls the plug or you get yourself another driver.

CH: The first episode of Knight Rider in which Michael Knight, played by David Hasselhoff, and KITT, played by a Pontiac Trans Am meet cute on their way to Silicon Valley. And despite his indignation, that handsome, loose cannon former cop -- and that handsome, unflappable car --developed a shared trust that deepened into true friendship. And we knew the characters had a powerful onscreen bond, but we didn't know how close the actors were in real life. It turns out that when Knight Rider ended, Mr. Hasselhoff took KITT with him. I assume they've spent the 35 years since driving around solving crimes while bantering. But as the old saying goes, if you love someone, set them free. Or in this case, if you love something, set it pretty expensive. David Hasselhoff has put a bunch of his old memorabilia up for auction, including what's described as a fully functioning KITT car with full conversion. I don't know. The car was expected to go for between 175,000-300,000 U.S., but bidding is already up to 475,000 -- and there are still two weeks to go. As an added bonus, if it fetches the right price, Mr. Hasselhoff will even deliver KITT to the winning bidder himself. All of which suggests that after all this time driving together, something has driven those two old friends apart.

[Music]

Part 2: Capitol security

Capitol security

Guest: Terrance Gainer

CH: He didn't do the job, now he doesn't have the job. The chief of Capitol Police in Washington, D.C., has resigned. Steven Sund made the announcement yesterday hours after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called for him to step down. The sergeant at arms of the House and the Senate have also resigned. Wednesday's attack saw a mob stormed the Capitol with shocking ease, leading to havoc, panic, and destruction. A Capitol police officer has died, and there are now serious questions about law enforcement's preparedness for a day that's been called a security failure. Terrance Gainer is a former chief of Capitol Police. We reached him in Chicago.

CO: Chief Gainer, as you know, many are calling what happened on Wednesday in the Capitol a massive security failure. What would you call it?

TERRANCE GAINER: There are a lot of problems, but I could go to the plus side, which is the end of it, which means that the Capitol Police and other law enforcement, they were able to bring the members back into each of the chambers and conclude the legislative process. That's the good news. The very bad news is that the Capitol was breached and a lot of officers were injured and in fact, one of our officers was killed. So there's the good, the bad and the ugly in this.

CO: However, it came to a conclusion, the scene we saw on Wednesday, not just that this mob was able to breach the perimeter and get inside, but it was quite clear the police were utterly unprepared for what was happening, and, in fact, some would even say enabled what happened. What do you say to that?

TG: Well, I won't accept enabled because I know when I was a Senate sergeant of arms, and I don't think that's the calibre of people we have. I do believe they were outnumbered. And I do believe that the command structure of the police department and the security officials from both the House and the Senate on ultimate responsibility. Carol, what was pretty clear to me was either the intel they had was bad or wasn't listen to the plan was poorly developed or the plan was poorly executed. And even if all those things are true of the moment in the hour or half hour, that those massive groups were coming up from the ellipse by the White House, it should have been readily apparent that there was going to be a problem.

CO: Okay. But how could they not know? I mean, you don't have to be able to infiltrate here and see the chatter on the Internet for days, if not weeks, leading up to the 6th when they were telling people, show up, go wild, bring your guns, insisting that they were going to get inside. It's not a failure of intelligence when everybody who is even casually reading about this knew this was going to happen. Do you not think that?

TG: So, listen, I'm not defending what happened up there. From the police point of view, it was a failure. And that's why the people responsible are being held accountable. But the other issue on this thing is we have the inauguration in just 10 days. The preparation for that, because I did a couple of them, takes about a year. And people from both the sergeant of arms office and the House and Senate would be deeply involved in that, as would the command structure and the Capitol Police. And things are a little chaotic up there when you relieve the top three people in those three major institutions. There needs to be a reconstruction of who's in charge from the sergeant of arms office and the command structure of the police department. I believe they're in the midst of regrouping now.

CO: I guess what seems so apparent to people is that there was so much online chatter about what was going to happen on Wednesday. Many of these people are known to police. They are leaders of of extremist groups and they came armed. They came with intention. They said they're going to do that and they did it. So how is it that they could not have known what the general public knew?

TG: Carol, I don't know how other to say it, but it was a miserable failure.

CO: But how does that failure happen? What are the assumptions that go into that, that make that such a miserable failure?

TG: Well, it goes back to intelligence. And intelligence doesn't mean you have people sneaking around. All that goes into intelligence, the black web, the common chatter, the social media, that's all part of it. And there are people in all sorts of agencies in the United States who would have been monitoring that, as would the Capitol Police, because there hasn't been an after action report, I don't know where the failure was. You're right, everybody else seemed to have the intelligence and now they're deciding what should have been done. The Capitol Police should have had that intelligence and either they misread it, didn't believe it, they overestimated their abilities and underestimated what the offenders could do. And it wasn't done. That was the failure.

CO: Can I put to you what many have suggested that racism played a role in this, in this regard. That there were assumptions about the people who are coming to Washington on Wednesday, that they were White protesters, they were Trump supporters, they were the people that Donald Trump said were good people and that there are assumptions that these were not the sorts of people who would do what we saw on Wednesday, that they were built in systemic racist perceptions that may have led to what happened on Wednesday. What do you say to that?

TG: I'm not naive to think that there's police officers who carry racial bias. I do not believe the agency is that. I don't believe the leadership would believe that. And I don't believe it's a wholesale problem. I will say this, professionals would have looked at the type of intelligence you talk about and they should have have the assets there. When Black Lives Matter events happen, if there's law breakers in there, they should be treated as lawbreakers. If there were lawbreakers, we now know in this group they should be treated that way. So, again, I know enough that that needs to be discussed, it needs to be reviewed. But I've seen these men and women perform flawlessly in thousands of other incidents. I cannot believe in my soul that all those officers laid back and let this happen. If you look at all the tapes you've looked at in the picture, you will see these men and women fighting as if their life depended on it. And it certainly depended on the life of Officer Brian Sicknick. I don't think our officers or the officers up there the ones who used to work for me did that intentionally. And if any of them did, I'd be the first one to want to put the handcuffs on them.

CO: And you're mentioning Officer Brian Sicknick, a 12 year veteran of the force. He is the police officer who died of his injuries in that melee. But at the same time, we have to point out that there is a video online of an officer posing for a selfie with these people, these riot people. There were reports of themselves -- the people inside said they asked for directions to officers, they were being helped. Why would they do that? I mean, I'm not saying that that meant that they were enablers necessarily. But why would there have been those moments that we've seen?

TG: Selfies, I'm sure that you've seen across protests in Canada as well as the United States, that you see police officers kneeling with the protesters, taking pictures with the protesters. So it could have been a technique, but it also could have been two and three officers in the Capitol that were surrounded by a hundred angry people who were trying to do damage, and these officers were somehow trying to calm it down or calm them down. And it also could have been, quite frankly, they could have supported them. If that's the case, they too will be held responsible. You cannot believe the amount of film and pictures we have of every inch of that Capitol. It will be thoroughly reviewed and people will have to answer for what they did and did not do.

CO: You saw people walk out with furniture, with souvenirs. They broke windows. We saw their faces. They could have been wearing masks. They had an opportunity to arrest those people on site. Now they have to identify them, chase them down, try and locate them and do those arrests. Should they not have arrested people on location in larger numbers inside the Capitol building?

TG: There are operational decisions to make that you don't stop and try to arrest everybody because of how difficult that is to process them and it takes one officer for every arrestee. And I could go through the detail of that. But when you have pictures of them, we have seen again across the United States where it is easier than you think especially as you're mentioning that these individuals were on Facebook, on social media, and now bragging to the media about what they did. It's very easy. It's labour intensive, but you can do it safely to get a warrant for the arrest, arrest them wherever at, extradite them and bring them back. The U.S. attorney, the prosecutor for the District of Columbia and the FBI is fully engaged in that. Pictures have been broadcast of the ringleaders who were doing the most bodacious things, and we will get them.

CO: Mr. Gainer, I appreciate your time today. Thank you.

TG: Thank you.

CH: That was former U.S. Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer. He's in Chicago.

[Music]

Kristyna Ng

CH: Tonight, Jeopardy! fans will have one last chance to say farewell to their beloved host. Alex Trebek died in November, almost two years after he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Despite his diagnosis, he continued to record new episodes of Jeopardy, the iconic game show he became synonymous with and hosted for more than three decades. Tonight's episode is the last show he ever recorded. In November, the day after Mr. Trebek died, Carol spoke with former Jeopardy contestant Kristyna Ng about how the show helped her learn English after she moved to Canada.

CO: Kristyna, we're hearing from many people today about the impact that Alex Trebek had on their lives. What did he mean to you?

KRISTYNA NG: Alex was a key figure in my life as I embarked on learning English as a newcomer in Canada. And his impact was profound on me and so many others that watch “Jeopardy!” and learn for the love of trivia and knowledge and culture. So, you know, it is a very sad day to learn of Alex's passing. And I know the impact for many is deep, and I'm thankful for the opportunity to honour Alex's legacy and memory.

CO: You came to Canada in the ‘80s, and so what is it about the show? Why did you find yourself watching endless episodes of [chuckling] “Jeopardy!”?

KN: We did not have as many shows to watch, right? Thirteen channels and didn't have YouTube. So after the evening news, every single day, it would be “Wheel of Fortune” and “Jeopardy!” And both those shows, but Jeopardy in particular, was a very, very useful tool and program to practice and learn English, but also to gain additional vocabulary and understanding of North American or Western culture, history, music.

CO: Can you give me an example of something that you wouldn't have known had it not been for “Jeopardy!”,

KN: For example, coming to Canada, I've never played hockey growing up in China. So if someone asked me, who is The Great One? I would not know without “Jeopardy!” or watching a hockey game. And for the majority of Canadians, without hesitation, you would say Wayne Gretzky, number 99, right?

CO: Yup.

KN: Because of the “Jeopardy!”, it really allowed me to connect these cultural icons to my everyday life. And that made me integrate into Canadian society, into North American society because of a broad knowledge base of clues and categories on “Jeopardy!” Every day is different. So every day you can acquire knowledge above and beyond what we get in traditional education or in school.

CO: So, but for you, many people had a similar kind of experience that they just loved the show and learned so much about the world from it, from just the trivia parts of it. You got to be on “Jeopardy!”. You got to actually become where the contestants. What was it like for you to step out on to the “Jeopardy!” stage and see Alex Trebek in person for the first time?

KN: It was a very surreal experience. I went through the competition process, through the online test, the in-person interviews, and then got selected to go down to L.A. and play “Jeopardy!” with other contestants in December last year. It was just an incredible experience. I did not expect that I would get on the show the first go around. And to see Alex Trebek come on that stage was living a dream, really. And although I didn't win; I came in second place, I felt like a winner just to be there to honour the man who has influenced so many. He's got a cult following of fans. And his genuine nature, his humble, you know, stage presence, his approachability with the audience and contestants really speaks to the values of a great Canadian.

CH: From November, that was Carol speaking with Canadian Jeopardy contestant Kristyna Ng. The final episode of the game show with the late Alex Trebek as host airs tonight.

[Music]

Stolen sword returned

Guest: Cindy Gaylord

CH: In the centre of Westfield, Massachusetts, stands a substantial copper statue of the Revolutionary War figure, General William Shepard. He's holding a sword, but it's just a substitute sword. One night in 1980, the original metre long sword disappeared, pried clean from the general's helpless, inanimate hands. Cut to today, 40 years later, when the sword has suddenly dematerialised, returned unexpectedly by the very man who swiped it in the first place. He reached out to Cindy Gaylord, the chair of the local historical commission. And we reached Ms. Gaylord at her home in Westfield, Massachusetts.

CO: Cindy, what did you think when you got this call days before Christmas?

CINDY GAYLORD: Very surprised for one and very excited. This has been a mystery for almost 40 years in Westfield. And to finally hear the answer is quite thrilling.

CO: Did he back in to tell you the story? Was he up front or what?

CG: Well, when I got the call, I said hello. And he said that he was in possession of something of historic value to Westfield. And I said, wonderful, because we get calls like this quite often and usually it's books or photographs or, you know, letters. And I said, could you give me an idea what it is? And he said, yes, it's the sword from the General Shepard statue. At which point I kind of went, what?! And he was very very hesitant -- I could tell it was very difficult for him to talk to me. And he said that there's a great deal of shame associated with it, but that he felt he needed to do the right thing and wanted to return it. And I said, of course, please bring it back. And I said, no questions asked. I said, unless you want to tell me the story. And at that point, he said, yes, I do, but I want to do it in person.

CO: Just for people to understand this -- when he said, I have this sword from the William Shepard statue, did you immediately know what he was talking about?

CG: Well, I thought I did. You know, again, it's been almost 40 years, but I did vaguely remember the sword disappearing. And at the time, nobody really knew how long it had been gone, once it was discovered. And within a year, the historical commission at the time had a replacement made and had put it in, it was welded very tightly and life went on. And we just figured we'd never see it again. But we had always hoped it would be returned.

CO: Okay. You met him then?

CG: Yes, we set up a date and he and his wife came to Westfield. We met out in my driveway six feet apart, and he sat down and told me the whole story.

CO: Wow okay. What's the story?

CG: Well, he was a freshman in college. And he and his roommates thought it would be fun to see if they could get the sword off of the statue. And he said, since I was the biggest and strongest of the group, he said I was kind of elected to go up and do it, which he did. And it was welded on. I asked him what tool he used and he just smiled and said brute strength. He said I was a big, strong guy. And when he pulled it off, he pulled with such force that when the sword came free, he went flying backwards off of the statue, which is, you know, five feet off the ground and landed on the ground. And the sword proceeded to go through his shirt and into the ground, just missing his abdomen. You know, I don't know if he would have survived had he been stabbed. And it went into the ground with such force that he could not get it out -- his friends had to pull it out.

CO: Wow. And so what did he do with it after that?

CG: Well, they went back to their apartment, went to sleep, woke up the next morning and realised what they had done, realised it was defacing public property. And in the process, the sword got bent. So they knew they damaged it. So they didn't know what to do. You know, they were young, scared college freshmen. So they didn't do anything. They just held onto it. And then eventually the sword went back home with him to his parents house, where it stayed for the next almost 40 years.

CO: Why did he decide that he had to return it now?

CG: Well, he was a veteran also, and he said it really started nagging on his conscience that here he was a decorated veteran and he knew that he had done this terrible thing to desecrate the statue of another decorated veteran. And when he was cleaning out his parents' basement and then last year, he discovered the sword and thought I need to do the right thing.

CO: So who was William Shepard -- the person who the statue was for?

CG: Yes, General William Shepard, he was a very well known man in Westfields, a farmer, but he served valiantly in the French and Indian War and then in the Revolutionary War. And he was a friend and confidant of General Washington. But he's best known for his role in Shays' Rebellion, which I'm not sure in Canada, if you know what that is, but that was the biggest threat to our young country at the time. It was after the Revolutionary War, a band of poor farmers took over the armoury, which is in Springfield, which is where the country's arms at the time were being stored. And Washington realised that this this could be devastating to the new country. So he sent in General Shepard to put down the rebellion, which he did.

CO: Okay. What does he represent for people in your city?

CG: Well, he's on our city seal, he's on the flag, he's on all of the city trucks, even the garbage trucks. There are apartment buildings named after him. And it was his descendants who actually had the statue made.

CO: And so it was erected in 1919.

CG: It was built in 1918 and then erected in 1919. And it's been there ever since.

CO: Now, the sword part of it is, as you said it had been restored and replaced, that sword that was stolen. So what happens to the one that's been recovered?

CG: Because it was damaged and because the new sword, the replacement sword, has been welded in so securely, it will not be put back on the statue, but it is now in the museum in our town, Athenaeum.

CO: And will you describe in the museum exhibit that this had been missing for 40 years after it was stolen?

CG: Yes. Yes. The archivist is typing that up now to put in with the sword.

CO: And do you think that this exhibit will inspire others to maybe return things that they might have in their basements?

CG: Well, that's exactly what we're hoping for, yes. It never occurred to us to press charges or anything. We are just so delighted to have this back and that we are very much hoping that other people will be inspired to give, you know, whether it is things they have illegally or whether they just things that were found in attics. We are hoping that people will call and they have. Actually I have received several calls already of people saying, you know, I found this in my attic, would it be of any interest? And the answer is always, yes, always. We will take anything that is of historic nature. And then for him, his lesson is he wanted people to realise that, you know, it's never too late to right a wrong and something that you do in your youth that might have been impulsive can eat at you your whole life, but you can do the right thing and change it.

CO: All right. Lots of lessons to be learnt here. Cindy, thank you.

CG: Thank you. I appreciate talking to you.

CH: Cindy Gaylord is the chair of the Westfield Historical Commission. We reached her at home in Westfield, Massachusetts.

[Music]

Part 3: Montreal homeless curfew

Montreal homeless curfew

Guest: Nakuset

CH: Starting tomorrow night, everyone in Quebec must go home at eight o'clock and stay home until five o'clock the next morning, and it's not just a weekend curfew for the next four weeks, all Quebecers have to stay home from eight p.m. to five a.m. or risk a fine of up to 6000 dollars this week, Quebec's Premier Francois Legault and Public Safety Minister Genevieve Guilbault both said there are enough shelters and warming centres for people without homes to observe the curfew. But some people who work with Montreal's homeless population don't agree with that assessment. Nakuset is the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter of Montreal and the co-manager of the day shelter, Resilience Montreal.

CO: Nakuset, what do you say to the Quebec politicians who claim there are enough shelters for homeless people to go to?

NAKUSET: Clearly, there is not enough shelters. And this is something that we have struggled with since the pandemic hit, so the first wave and now going into the second wave. We're finding that many shelters that host Indigenous people, there's been outbreaks in those shelters and they're closing their doors or limiting the amount of people that come in. So it's definitely a crisis.

CO: And now there's another layer of complexity, isn't there, for homeless people, starting on Saturday when there will be a curfew at night in Quebec, and so after, I guess, 8 p.m. till 5:00 a.m., there are pretty hefty fines for anybody who is outside without a good reason. So what effect is that going to have on the people with whom you work?

NAKUSET: Well, we need to be able to support them in finding another location, and right now there is no other location. I understand that the Quebec government is saying that there are enough spaces, but clearly there's not. It's really alarming that they should say that without actually looking into the crisis here, especially in Montreal. Now, there is ample space if they wanted to create new services, but they haven't yet done that. So I think that on Saturday night, they're going to see the streets empty and the only people will be homeless people roaming around.

CO: Will they be fined?

NAKUSET: Well, right now they're saying that they're not. But what happened with the first wave of COVID is that homeless people, got fined because they were not social distancing. So, I mean, if the police actually know of places that are open, then it would be great instead of ticketing them is to pick them up and bring them to these locations. But, you know, here in Montreal, we've known since the 29th of December that, you know, there are no more spaces. And now with these outbreaks happening in the Indigenous organisations, there's less.

CO: And there are estimates that the positivity rate for COVID amongst homeless Indigenous people in Montreal is 80 percent. How is that affecting them? How can you help them?

NAKUSET: Well, it's very very difficult right now. So we do know that there is one particular organisation that is a night shelter for Indigenous people. And they gave us an update on December 31st that 80 percent of their staff and clientele were 80 percent, and that there are certain people walking around that have COVID that haven't been contacted yet by public health and don't know it. So right now, a lot of the organisations are frozen. They do not want to let anyone in because they don't know their health status. But they're also waiting for public health to give advice on what to do. So it's really critical right now. And I'm really hoping that, you know, maybe tomorrow there'll be an announcement about a new place where people can go, but that does not exist as of yet.

CO: Over the holidays, the former Royal Victoria Hospital was converted, right, to some kind of a quarantine centre. Did that help at all during the holidays?

NAKUSET: That has not actually happened yet. It is going to happen soon. So there is no date. What they said was 100 beds for Indigenous people would be at the Royal Vic. And we're waiting. I know that I received an email that on January 21st there would be some kind of Zoom call discussing how you can admit someone. But January 21st is a long way. So I'm hoping that, you know, we'll hear an announcement soon about when it actually is open. And again, 100 beds is not enough. And a lot of the Indigenous people mixed with the non-Indigenous people that are homeless -- so where are they going to go when they meet a red zone?

CO: Now, it's not just that they have no place to go, but people like yourself who work with the homeless need to be out and about to see your clients, right. The people are out trying to help during the night to see who needs assistance. So what restrictions will there be on you and others to be able to go out after curfew to help those who are on the streets?

NAKUSET: There's been multiple meetings going on since, you know, the last couple of days. And we are literally sending a list of employees at the Native Women's Shelter that can be outside after the curfew. Although, you know, in the first COVID wave, we found that there were Indigenous outreach workers that were still ticketed and arrested for a certain infractions dealing with either social distancing or something along that line. So we're hoping that the police will do better. But also, Montreal is known for racial profiling Indigenous women, that they do it 18 times more than any other culture. So it's pretty tricky right now to see how they will react with the curfew.

CO: Just to sum it up, homeless people are now have very few places to go, places are closing down because of the high positivity rate. It's January, we're talking about Montreal. And there is now going to be a curfew that might mean that they get fined on top of everything else if they're not in shelters. What more can they be up against at this point?

NAKUSET: Not much more. I think this is pretty much it, right? I just really hope that, you know, the government does an about face and says, you know what, we're going to open up, you know, more rooms at the Royal Vic, the entire hospital, we're going to open up or will, you know, call in the army like they did with the senior homes here in Montreal and have big tents that are, you know, heated and have army personnel to help the people, because it's going to be really sad when, again, the homeless population is sort of left to their own devices, you know, on the streets.

CO: On the streets and infected.

NAKUSET: Mm hmm.

CO: Nakuset you have your work cut out for you and I appreciate that you gave us some time. Thank you.

NAKUSET: Thank you.

CH: Nakuset is the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter of Montreal and co-manager of the day shelter, Resilience Montreal. She was in Montreal.

[Music]

Lisa Adams

CH: Two months ago, Lisa Adams launched a court case from behind bars, calling for an end to the use of so-called dry cells. And yesterday, Nova Scotia announced a ban on dry celling across its jails. Dry cells have no running water and no flush toilet, and their lights are always on. Ms. Adams spoke out about the practise after she spent two weeks in a dry cell, which is used when inmates are suspected of hiding drugs, a weapon or other contraband inside their bodies. Now Nova Scotia, has banned their use and calls the practise inhumane. Emma Halpern is the executive director of the Elizabeth Fry Society of Mainland Nova Scotia. She backed Ms. Adam's challenge.

EMMA HALPERN: This was obviously welcome news for us. Our team at the Elizabeth Fry Society launched a habeas corpus that had a charter challenge component to it, to the constitutionality of dry celling women who were alleged to have put contraband in the vagina. So it's a slightly different context, but certainly in the course of this case, we raised constitutional issues about dry celling and charter grounds that would apply to men and women. And our strong feeling is that that case and the media attention around that case and certainly the fact that we knew that there was a lawyer from the Nova Scotia Department of Justice present at the hearing, that that would have, in our mind, certainly had some bearing on this decision that came out today.

SHAINA LUCK: What do you read into it that Nova Scotia has gone ahead and done this? Do you think it strengthens your case at all?

EMMA HALPERN: Absolutely. Yes, I do think it strengthens our case. You know, obviously, this is my own assumption because I don't have any information about why the decision was made. But my assumption would be that there there was a review or a review of the policy, a review of the legislation that was reviewed in light of our charter and the decision was made that this practise is unconstitutional. You know, my hope is that there will be a ripple effect and that, in fact, other provinces will review their dry cell practises. And certainly the federal government will review the practise of dry celling and find that, in fact, it is also unconstitutional at all levels and therefore we should be eliminating dry celling across the board.

CH: That was Emma Halpern speaking with the CBC's Shaina Luck. The new ban on dry cells applies only to provincial jails in Nova Scotia, not federal institutions such as the one in Truro, where Lisa Adams is serving a two year sentence for drug trafficking. Back in November, Ms. Adams talked about the two weeks she spent inside a dry cell.

LISA ADAMS: Some days I felt very strong and determined because I knew I was the wrong person to have in there and to try this out on. So I felt determined. I felt strong. Other days, I felt completely hopeless. I felt like I was not seen as a human being. I felt there were some days while I was in there that I felt like my only worse in this world was that I was just a drug addict. And that was all the merit that I held. And I was an example to be made as a drug addict, as a means to prevent drugs from entering. There were some days that I felt like I had lost value. Other days I wanted to completely end it, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I wrote a letter to my mother, to my father. And I started to write one to my children to say goodbye to them. Over the course of the time, by the time it was getting near the end, I felt like I was losing my mind quite literally. But I just kept thinking, okay, well, I'm up here for as long as I'm up here for and this has gone on as long as it has, and what happens is going to happen. You know, are they pushing down on them harder? And I was afraid of every move I made. I was afraid that everything I did was going to make things look worse or maybe they were going to misinterpret this and they were going to do something worse to me. I at all times, I tried to keep my hands where they could see them at all times. So slowly having that monitoring kind of slowly drove me off the deep end, I guess, for lack of a better way to say that.

CH: Lisa Adams speaking with the CBC's Shaina Luck in November.

[Music]

Spam Roll

CH: Lovely Spam, wonderful Spam. There is nothing quite like it, including ham. And when Monty Python premiered its Spam song and the accompanying sketch in 1970, Hormel, which makes Spam, knew better than to fight the buzz. After all, when you're best known for a product that only sort of resembles meat, you welcome what only sort of resembles good publicity. So Hormel is likely cheering on the efforts of some record breaking restaurateurs in Tennessee today. When the owners of Kimo's Hawaiian Bar and Grill in Clarksville learnt that someone else held the title for the world's largest roll of sushi involving the canned meat, they decided to take a kick at the can themselves. The result was a whopping 1100 pound Spam musubi roll completed over the holidays. A giant bed of sticky rice topped with a colossal amount of Spam wrapped in a seaweed bow. Now, you might be forgiven for thinking that isn't exactly sushi, but Spam isn't exactly meat. So somehow plenty of people go crazy for both. So much so that a bevy of masked musubi enthusiasts showed up at Kimo's to watch the moment staff pulled an impressive frame of two by fours and cling wrap off the top of their record breaking rule.

VOICE: Okay! So now, the moment of truth. All right, let's go ahead and get the seaweed ready. [Cross talking] Smooth is fast. Easy. Yeah, that's perfect. Look at that! [Crowd applauds]

CH: There you have it ladies and gentlemen, the sound of the world's largest piece of Spam musubi being birthed into the world, our sound of the day today. The record was broken in December by staff at Kimo's Hawaiian Bar and Grill in Clarksville, Tennessee, who raised money for charity in the process.

[Music]

Mardi Gras clarinetist

Guest: Doreen Ketchens

CH: Mardi Gras season in New Orleans traditionally kicks off on January 6th, but with the pandemic still in full swing, the usual crowds will not be descending on the birthplace of jazz for week after week of parades, parties, and street performances. Still, the city is finding ways to keep the celebration going. Last April, at the height of the initial outbreak, we spoke with jazz clarinettist Doreen Ketchens, who was at her home in New Orleans. We've reached her there again today.

CO: Doreen, in a normal year, what would New Orleans be like right now?

DOREEN KETCHENS: It would be pretty busy, lots of people out, great atmosphere, people transitioning between New Year's and Mardi Gras. So you'd see decorations going up. You know, people come in from their party or their 12 night parties, you'd see a bunch of Christmas trees with Mardi Gras decorations.

CO: What's it like this year?

DK: So there's still decorations, but Mardi Gras is cancelled. So there aren't that many people. Of course, you know, with the pandemic, there aren't that many people. The streets are sort of sparse. There are certain businesses that have closed up. So it's not like a normal visit to New Orleans where you come and you could go door to door, you know, checking this out and checking that out. I mean, the people that are walking around, you know, there aren't that many of them, but they're walking around. They're still enjoying themselves.

CO: So people are trying to keep the spark going. But what has this wet blanket done to the spirit of your city?

DK: Well, I mean, it's New Orleans, so it hasn't killed it -- I can tell you that. I mean, just like you can, you know, sing happy birthday to yourself [chuckles] that's what we do. So there's still lots of neighbourhood kind of spirit. There's still you know, people looking forward to the different holidays and stuff like that. I mean, it's still New Orleans, you know, and even though just recently we went back to phase one, you know, they're just going to start celebrating at home.

CO: And so what are people going to do to try and keep Mardi Gras alive this year in New Orleans?

DK: Oh, eating cake and, you know, do barbecues and whatever. I mean, Mardi Gras day will still be a celebration, it just won't have parades, you know what I mean? The local stations might rebroadcast some old parades or, you know, something like that. Several of the Mardi Gras clubs, they're still having a ball. Of course they'll have it with social distancing and stuff like that. But, you know, it's just the parades attracts so many people, you know, and morally it just wouldn't be right.

CO: I was going to say that you say, oh it'll just be regular Mardi Gras but without the parades -- I mean, that's the heart and soul, isn't it, though? We just live to see those colours, to see that event each year. It must be so difficult to not have that this year.

DK: Well, the thing is, when you're a local, you know, these parades, they pass for two weeks every night, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, you don't try to catch all of them. And the older you get, you know, the fewer you catch. But the spirit is still there, you know, and you do your own kind of Mardi Gras activities anyway. So like I said, you know, the spirit is still here. We're still celebrating and everything else like that, just not in that form. And yeah, you do miss the pump and circumstance, you know, the big parades or the big crowds and all of that stuff. But, you know, you can't do that right now. So you accept it and you move on.

CO: What were the consequences of the Mardi Gras last year vis-a-vis the pandemic?

DK: High numbers. I think they had a concern about it before Mardi Gras and they could have cancelled it last year. But could have, would have, should have -- you know, everybody can say that. I can say that if the mayor had cancelled Mardi Gras last year, they'd probably want to boot her out, you know, I mean, people would just call her crazy. So she was between a rock and a hard place anyway.

CO: Do you see any light at the end of the tunnel, though? I mean, we're looking at the vaccine rolling out. There's still the numbers of illness and death in the United States especially are so extraordinary. But do you feel that your city, your country is going to get back to some semblance of normalcy?

DK: [Chuckles] Yeah. You know, with not taking the pandemic seriously and making mask-wearing a political thing instead of a health thing, you know, there are so many irresponsibilities going on. There's just so much division and so much crap, you know what I mean? I think it's obvious now that, you know, wearing a mask isn't a political statement -- it's actually just trying to protect yourself and the people around or that you come in contact with. And there's a vaccine, you know, with all of those positive things on the horizon, I think will be fine. It's just going to be a matter of time, and eventually, you know, we'll get out of this.

CO: When we spoke with you last April, just at the height of that outbreak you just to described, we asked you to play a bit of your clarinet and you blew us away. It was just a moment of pure joy for us here to hear you play, because we all needed it, and we need it again today. So I wonder if you might just play a bit for us.

DK: Sure. And since you're thinking about Mardi Gras and all that other stuff -- I'll just do a quick Mardi Gras thing. So this one is entitled Mardi Gras in New Orleans. How's that?

CO: Perfect.

DK: All right. [Doreen plays "Mardi Gras in New Orleans" on the clarinet] [Singing] When you go to New Orleans, you want to go see the Mardi Gras, got to go see the Mardi Gras. See the Mardi Gras. When you get to New Orleans, you want to go see the Mardi Gras. Got to go and see the Mardi Gras. See the Mardi Gras. When you see that Mardi Gras, somebody is going to tell you carnival is fall. [Plays clarinet again]

CO: Oh, that was wonderful. Oh, Doreen, we needed that. Thank you so much. I don't know how anyone could do that with a clarinet. We will connect people with how to hear more of Doreen's jazz after we finish this interview. Thank you so much.

DK: Thank you. And you all have a great one and stay warm. I know you know how to do it better than us.

CO: [Laughter] We're going to try. Oh, gosh. Thanks. Bye.

DK: [Laughter] Thank you. Bye bye.

CH: Doreen Ketchens is a jazz clarinettist and bandleader in New Orleans. And you can hear more of her playing at: "doreensjazz.com"

[Music]

Nigel & Gimli

CH: It can be hard to be different, we know that, especially when some uncontrollable aspect of your being doesn't just fail to match up to some arbitrary social norm, but fails to match up with your entire family too, like your entire extremely extended extended family -- all of whom are very tall while you are less tall. For some unknown reason, your whole family is so proud of their sleek necks and their skyscraping height as though everyone else is beneath them. Well no, your modest height says nothing about who you are, where it matters in your 25 pound heart, though, it does mean you don't get the best acacia leaves. Over the past few years, photographs of two giraffes Nigel and Gimli have made it appear that they're much shorter than their peers, like seven feet or more than two metres shorter. Their head and necks were average sized, but their legs and bodies were horse sized, causing scientists to first hypothesise that the condition was caused by Photoshop. But new research has revealed that A) Nigel and Gimli are real and B) that they have skeletal dysplasia, also known as dwarfism, which is rare in wild animals and until now unheard of in the world's usually tallest land mammal. But really, that makes Nigel and Gimli pretty remarkable. And guys, if you're listening, if there are those around you who can't see that they are the ones who are falling short.

January 8, 2021 Episode Transcript

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