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The AIH Transcript for January 17, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: He's as driven as they come, but he's sitting this one out. A St. John's cab driver who's rarely taken a day off in four decades says no one should venture out on Newfoundland's roads in this blizzard.

CH: Trade talks of a different sort. It's time for Canada to secure the release of two Canadians held in China by offering up the detained Huawei executive in exchange, says a former prime minister's chief of staff.

CO: A better pill. It's a vending machine that dispenses opioids, and the Vancouver doctor behind it says it's crucial to ensuring high risk users don't get bad drugs on the streets.

CH: Family reunion. She was known as Baby Mary, an infant abandoned in a Calgary parking lot -- 30 years later, the Kelowna woman shares what it's like to reunite with her birth parents.

CO: He'll need time just to get everyone onboard with the idea but he's done the math. And a computer scientist thinks he's discovered an out-of-the-box way to make air travel a lot less annoying.

CH: And the pack stops here. The phone company says it's working on it, but a group of Nova Scotia residents say they won't put up with woodpeckers chewing through the overhead cables any longer. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that senses things are down to the wire.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: For 1st time in 40 years, extreme snowstorm keeps St. John's cabbie off the road

St. John’s Mayor

Guest: Danny Breen

CH: Newfoundlanders are no strangers to blizzards. But today, the snow and winds on the islands have become a state of emergency. People in St. John's and surrounding areas are being told to stay home -- and not, under any circumstances, to drive. More than 75 centimetres of snow is expected to fall today. And winds are gusting to 150 kilometres per hour. Danny Breen is the Mayor of St. John's. And that's where we reached him.

CO: Mayor Breen, first of all, have you ever seen a storm like this in St. John's?

DANNY BREEN: This is a very unique storm for us. Usually we would have windstorms or we would have snow storms, but the combination of extremely high winds and snow with is somewhat unusual for us. We've had storms in the past, but I don't recall seeing one like this before.

CO: Even just looking at it -- this is not just what you can give us the numbers and the amounts and the wind velocity -- but just looking at this is quite extraordinary, isn't it?

DB: Well, there's some things about it that's incredible. I live in a subdivision -- typical loft in the subdivision -- and a plow came up earlier and I could hear the plow, but couldn't see it. So the visibility is almost down to zero somebody.

CO: The visibility is zero because they snow is over the tops of their windows.

DB: It's over the tops of the windows. I know that fences are now breached by snow. We started here Christmas Eve. We had the first snowfall, but we've been having snow falls continuously. And that 170 centimetres that's accumulated is now going to be around 250 by the time we're finished.

CO: 170 is what you already had?

DB: Yeah. 170 was what we've had since Christmas.

CO: And what have you had since the beginning of the day so far?

DB: We've had 40 so far and we expect another 25 or so.

CO: With the winds from the northeast mostly...

DB: With the winds. So the drifting is huge.

CO: What about people without power? We understand there have been outages.

DB: There's outages now. And crews, of course, are challenged in getting to those. But they're working on them. So that's an added concern because certainly opening warming centres and you can't get people out of the houses to go to them.

CO: Because people in St. John's and people on the peninsula take care of each other, but if you can't get to their door, then how do you check on your neighbours?

DB: It's very difficult. So it's a very challenging situation. You know, what we do is we phone people that we know. We need some assistance just to make sure everybody who's doing okay.

CO: How are the hospitals doing? Do they still have power?

DB: Hospitals still have power as far as I know. There's been no problems there. We've just recently taken our plows off the road in the city -- well we've taken them off our routes. And what we've done is we've deployed them to various areas around fire stations and hospitals to ensure that we have a plow escort if they have an emergency call.

CO: Do you know of anyone who has needed emergency calls? There were people, I guess, at the beginning were still trying to get out. Anybody had to be rescued?

DB: Well, we just had an incident a short while ago of a small avalanche where snow moved and came down onto a house. The people were able to get out of the house. There was no injuries. So our firefighters are down there -- just checking the area to see if there's any other risks associated with that.

CO: That would be an issue. So people were able to get out there and get someplace safe?

DB: Yes.

CO: A CBC reporter was saying that one of the advantages of this -- one thing that went right -- is that there was this well forecast, the storm, that it is playing out as expected. And Kayla said that that one good thing is that you, the mayor, got the message out before people lost power or connection, and that for once people in St. John's listened. [Chuckles] How significant is that?

DB: It has been forecasted for a number of days. And this morning at around, I guess, 10:30 or quarter to 11:00, when we saw that this was turning out as the forecast predicted, we declared a state of emergency. And people are staying in their homes. And that's all we ask people to do: stay in your homes. Stay safe. That's the safest place you can be.

CO: What's your greatest concern tonight?

DB: My concern tonight is for the power -- is people losing power. And concerns especially for the senior citizens and families with small children and just generally everybody, that they can be safe this evening. So that's the thing that we want to ensure. And, you know, we've got our staff ready to do whatever we need to do to make sure of that.

CO: Well, we're all hoping it turns out well for people in St. John's and on the Avalon Peninsula. Mayor Breen, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DB: Thank you Carol.

CH: Danny Breen is the Mayor of St. John's, Newfoundland. That's where we reached him.

Newfoundland cabbie

Guest: Joe White

CH: Joe White is one of those people who is wisely hunkering down today. He's a long time St. John's cab driver. We reached him earlier today at home in the Goulds neighbourhood of the city.

CO: So, Joe, I know you've been out with your snow blower. What's the point? It sounds like it keeps coming down. [Chuckles]

JOE WHITE: Well, I mean, you know, I work seven days a week and [chuckles] I get really put out when I can't get out and go to work. And if I leave that till tomorrow morning, it'll be probably up to my shoulders if I had to leave it.

CO: Now, this is an emergency, right? So can you describe for people -- we've seen the video, we're seeing the pictures, but you just can't fathom what's happening right now on your part on the Avalon Peninsula -- just describe what it's like outside your door.

JW: Well, I'd say the winds are somewhere between 50 and 60 kilometres an hour now. And they are changing around, I believe, to the northeast. And when that snow hits your face it is like someone has a sand blaster blowing out. You can't even look at it. You have to be very careful when you're snow-blowing, especially near the street because even though it's a state of emergency, there's still some fools out there in pickup trucks trying to see what their trucks can do.

CO: When you get a northeast wind like that, that must be just brutal.

JW: Well, you know the northeast wind in St. John's will cut you right through the bone. You might get a northeast wind up in Toronto and other places. And I've heard meteorologist say "Nah it's the same." It's not the same. The meteorologists have got to come down here and stand up and then they'll understand. This is three times today I got all my snow gear in the dryer again because the humidity that's in this stuff, it soaks you right to the bone. [Chuckles] I mean, you can go up in Toronto and blow snow and stuff like that and it's cold. But it's not a damp cold. We get a damp cold down here. I mean, the wind-chill down here is -10 is probably -- you know I lived in Ontario for a couple of years and the wind-chill up there of -30 is nothing. But a wind chill down here of -20 or -30 -- I mean, it's not fit.

CO: And it's the intensity of that wind, right? Like a north-easterly at that speed is just extraordinary, it would seem.

JW: Right. And according to the news, I mean these winds, overnight, are supposed to go up to somewhere between 120 and 150 kilometres an hour. We haven't even got to the brunt of this yet.

CO: When was the last time you didn't go out in your cab because of the weather?

JW: Never. [Laughs] I've been into the taxi industry since 1979. I've gone through more cars than most people go through shoes. And the weather has never, ever prevented me from going to work. But when I got up this morning and it started to snow before I left, and I was listening to the news and stuff, my problem is I've got to drive 10 kilometres to get to St. John's to go to work. And I'm driving through like, you know, fields, open fields, a pastoral land and stuff like that. And when you get 100 kilometres with blowing snow and the visibility is zero -- I was concerned about getting home. I wasn't concerned about getting out.

CO: So what makes you so convinced that you're going to get out to work tomorrow?

JW: I'm just persistent. I'm going to work tomorrow morning. [Laughter] I don't know what time it is going to be. But I'll be out to work tomorrow morning, I can guarantee you.

CO: What we're hearing from the police, and the authorities, (they) are saying, "just do not go out there today." But are people doing that anyways? You said you saw some pickup trucks. People are actually out on the road?

JW: I saw one pickup truck that was earlier -- I would say -- a few hours ago. I haven't seen one since. And normally, because I live out in the west end, and a lot of people around here have snowmobiles. I haven't even heard one. So I think the teenagers got the message to stay home. If you don't need to be out then just stay home. Stay home, make some babies, and then you'll be able to remember what happened. [Laughter] But I'm going to work tomorrow morning. You need not worry about that. And my customer, they know that I'll be out working tomorrow morning. I told them already "I'll be out." So I've got to shovel on and get a couple of hours sleep. I'll be out tomorrow morning.

CO: Some are saying, though, that the fools who have gone out have ended up in the ditch and no one can even go and rescue them at this point.

JW: Well, when there is the state of emergency, I mean they're not going to send -- I mean, you know, first responders from 911 and you know the firefighters and whoever else -- they're not going to go out and risk a limb for a fool who's out in these two-wheel drive vehicle in a three foot or ten foot snowdrift. They've been told already, "Stay off the road. It's a state of emergency. If you don't need to be out, stay home." I mean it's good advice. Put it this way, if I won't go out in a snowstorm, everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador needs to stay home.

CO: Maybe you should get on the phone or on television and well one thing you can say is "If I'm not going out, you shouldn't go out." And then tell them to stay home and make babies. [Laughter] Maybe you haven't given them a reason to stay. That might do it.

JW: Right. And they can nickname them "Snowy." [Laughter] It's just brutal. A lot of people are staying home. I haven't seen anybody walking on the streets. I haven't seen any snowmobiles. I haven't seen any joy-riders. So I guess the bulk of people got the message. They're probably home sitting on their chips and doing whatever else, Carol. [Laughs]

CO: Oh, yeah. Well...there's lots to do. Tell them that. Joe stay warm, I guess. If you have got to go back out there again then stay safe because you can't see anyone coming.

JW: I'll go out on the street. But my neighbour, he will be there with me to make sure, you know, I haven't hit my back to traffic and stuff like that. But we'll get it done before the night is out. And we will do one final cut in the morning to get out of our driveway because he's got a big F250 or something or other. [Laughs] If I need to get to the store and I can't get out, I can depend on him.

CO: Well, okay we'll see what happens tomorrow. And I admire your confidence that you're getting out your driveway tomorrow.

JW: I don't know if confidence is the right word Carol. [Laughs]

CO: What's the word you would use?

JW: I don't know. If there's one in the dictionary it goes way beyond "confidence." I couldn't come up with one. Probably begins with "s." I don't know. [Laughs]

CO: [Laughs] Joe take care of yourself. Okay.

JW: [Laughs] Have a good day Carol.

CH: Joe White is a long-time St. John's cab driver. We reached him earlier today in the Goulds neighbourhood of St. John's. And to see some pictures of what Joe, and everyone else there, is contending with, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Hydromorphone vending machine

Guest: Mark Tyndall

CH: At first glance, you might mistake it for an ATM or maybe the kind of ticket vending machine you'd see at a train station. But that is not what it is. The biometric machine in Vancouver's downtown east side dispenses the opioid hydromorphone to high risk drug users. It's called MySafe. And the doctor behind this pilot project is infectious disease specialist Mark Tyndall. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Dr. Tyndall, I understand you are at the machine right now. What's the activity that you're seeing down?

MARK TYNDALL: Yeah, I'm standing beside a big 750 pound steel box. There's just five people that are currently enrolled in the program. So I've seen three of them so far today walk by and get their medications. But it's relatively quiet because we're just starting.

CO: Do they need to see you?

MT: No, not at all. So it's meant to be quite autonomous. Everybody's been registered biometrically. So the machine recognizes only that person. And it's individually programed for the dose people get and what time they can come and get their medications.

CO: Okay. So maybe just describe for us how somebody would use this device called MySafe.

MT: Basically, they walk up to the machine. It's got a video screen on it. They pop in a couple of things. And it says that your dose is ready. You put your hand on the side of the machine, which has a biometric reader. It welcomes you and says it's dispensing your medication. And then there's a box at the bottom and it dispenses the meds and then you walk away.

CO: How did they get into the programs? Do you consult with them? Are you talking with them at all or do they just come in, do that, and leave?

MT: Oh no. You know the five people that we've chosen to start the program, I actually know them all -- some for a long time. They've sort of been handpicked to kind of test the feasibility of this. So they go through kind of a general medical assessment. We arrive at an appropriate dose for them, for their hydromorphone and sign them up to the biometrics.

CO: How is this helpful for them?

MT: You know, in the current situation where all five of these particular people have overdosed multiple times in the last couple of years, it gives them the security of using a drug that they won't overdose on. So that obviously is the main benefit. But even in the short time that the people have been involved in the program, you know, some of them have come quite a long way as far as stabilizing their lives because they don't have to be out hustling for drugs all the time.

CO: The machine will dispense each day as much as 16 eight-milligram tablets. If someone had all of those, could they overdose on that dosage?

MT: I suppose if they took them all at once. But, you know, unless people are trying to kill themselves and there's no reason they do that. We tend to treat people who use drugs as though they have no idea what they're doing. And for the most part if people, you know, get a steady supply of heroin or a steady supply of pharmaceutical pills, they're not at risk of overdosing. They know how much they need and they'll take them accordingly. So if you or I took home 16 pills and took them all at once, we'd be in trouble. But we have people that have long histories of drug use. We observed their first dose to assure their tolerance is okay. Everybody gives urine tests. We know it's full of opiates. So the chance of you overdosing on these drugs is essentially zero.

CO: Is there a street value to the hydromorphone that they're getting from the machines?

MT: Yeah. Probably about 35 cent pill could go for 15 dollars on the street. And, you know, of the top 10 reasons why people think this isn't a good idea, diversion is probably at the top of the list. But certainly I've talked about this to, you know, literally hundreds of people. The five people that currently started in the program, there's no reason to believe they're diverting any of these medications. They're using fentanyl daily. They're spending hundreds of dollars on fentanyl and other drugs. And what motivation they'd have to go trade these pills for fentanyl -- it just doesn't make any sense. So I think the vast majority, you know, people will use all of it themselves. There could be some diversion to friends or partners who are drug sick, but I think that's fine. If narcotics weren't involved in this poisoning epidemic, we'd be encouraging people to give a safer supply to their friends who are using.

CO: And you're right -- that is the criticism or the concern. But it's coupled with the idea that you mentioned that, you know, all the people who are now using this machine, they've been handpicked. But if the program is scaled up, you have a lot of people whom you don't know. That's the concern that the unintended consequences might be diversion. It might be that they start selling or giving to others and you lose control of who is getting these drugs. Does that concern you?

MT: Well, obviously, I'm not going to get to know everybody who's in a program, but there will be a criteria. There'll be people around assessing. There'll be people following. So, you know, people would have certain criteria to qualify for the program. You know, the idea that they'd just be on their own and, you know, just grabbing pills from a machine and running away. What I've seen in the short term and what I've known for, you know, all my experience with people in this area -- I mean, the connection happens on their own terms and their own time. And this machine and this program would give people ample opportunities to connect with health care when they're ready to do that.

CO: Well, what are you up against? I mean, you've mentioned the poison and we know it's an epidemic. This is a public health emergency. When you cast about for ideas and projects that might help or a given alternative supply, a safe supply or harm reduction, how difficult is your task at this point?

MT: Well, it's extremely frustrating. I mean, you know, I've been working this community for 20 years. And, you know, I've never seen anything like this, what we've experienced the last four years, where people are still using in, you know, great numbers and great intensity and they're buying mystery drugs and dying. And our harm reduction efforts have been in the downtown eastside. It has kind of been maxed out with the tools we have. And I've come to the conclusion that the only ethical and reasonable thing we can do at this point is offer people access to a safe supply of drugs. And that we can worry about connecting with people, getting them in recovery down the road. And the only way that ever happens is if people stabilize. And this is a direct way to try and stabilize people's lives and give them the opportunity not to die.

CO: Dr. Tyndall it was good to talk to you. Thank you.

MT: Thanks for the opportunity.

CH: Dr. Mark Tyndall is a professor at UBC's School of Population and Public Health. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music]

Airplane boarding study

Guest: Eitan Bachmat

CH: Figuring out the fastest way to board an airplane isn't exactly rocket science. It is exactly complex physics, though. And it's actually a problem that researchers have been trying to puzzle out for years using Lorentzian geometry and the theory of relativity. Obviously. Professor Eitan Bachmat worked on a new study that may have found a definitive answer. We reached him in Be'er Sheva, Israel.

CO: Professor Bachmat I'm trying to picture you in the waiting lounge of the airport. You're the guy in the corner who is feverishly scribbling math equations, right?

EITAN BACHMAT: I'm usually more observing people so I can scribble later. [Laughter]

CO: And what are you observing them do? What is it that has caught your attention on how they board planes?

EB: Well, I look at how the boarding proceeds and whether I get stuck before the airplane entrance or not. And what is the method of the airline. Do they board from the back to the front or by groups -- which is usually a combination of back to the front with windows to aisle. I look at how much time people spend putting their luggage in. So in different areas and in different places, I try to follow the procedures and think about it a little bit.

CO: We all have a lot of time to watch it and not to think about it as you do, but to get really really steamed about it, right? As you're standing there in the aisle and you're watching somebody struggle with, and not wanting to be angry with them because they're having a hard time. So what have you determined is the fastest way to board an airplane?

EB: So in our latest studies, we've been looking at random boarding VS if you have two groups of people some of which are slower and some of which are faster. For example, people without luggage, they're supposed to be the fast group. And people with luggage the slow group. Or as airlines, a lot of times happen, they board first people who have children and need assistance. That would be a slow group. So if you have a fast and slow group, what we found is that you should board the slow passengers first, which is kind of counterintuitive and surprising, I think.

CO: Okay. How do you determine that? Obviously, people who are with children, people who are in wheelchairs, or the elderly. But beyond that how do you decide who should board first? If you are saying people with all kinds of baggage that they probably shouldn't have with them get on first, that then would really get under people's skin I think, would it not?

EB: Actually a couple of airlines tried that, but they tried fast first, not slow first. And then they abandoned that. In any case, it would board faster, but not by much. And in terms of groups, yeah, I think the only groups that make sense are by luggage or like people who need assistance. But if you can come up with other efforts, that would be great. [Laughs] I think about working on airplane boarding --everybody's boarded an airplane, everybody is an expert.

CO: Right. Everyone has an opinion, if they're not an expert. I asked you at the beginning about, you know, you're observing people move. But the way you came up with this best way or among the best way to board is through math, through calculations. Which is not my strength. But do you want to explain as simply as you can how you figured this out using the things like geometry and the theory of relativity?

EB: Okay. So I'll try my best to keep it really simple. So the same math can describe very different things. I can say three plus three equals six -- and mean three apples plus three apples equals six apples. Or it could be three houses plus three houses equals six houses. Apples and houses have nothing in common. But sort of the math that describes the situation is the same. And what turned out, and that was very surprising, is that when you and 200-300 other people board the airplane, you're essentially -- in terms of the mathematics -- you're doing a quite complicated, a computation in relativity theory about the aging of some free falling particle and some model of the universe.

CO: Are you serious? [Laughs] Really?

EB: I was surprised. [Laughs] I was very surprised about that. And what happens is when the airline changes the policy or the airplane is more or less congested, these are different models of the universe. Like you can be, you know, part of the universe. You can be near the Earth. You can be between galaxies. And the calculations are basically always the same kind of relativistic geometry, but the environment changes as all these parameters change.

CO: Okay. I want to see you on the airplane explaining to people on the intercom the relativistic geometry of why they were told to take their seats in this order and see how long you last. [Laughter]

EB: Yeah. It's a hard sell in that sense. [Laughs] All the other researchers apart from me and the group that I work with, they use computer simulations and then you don't get this relation to science. But we use formulas and it's fun. Actually we can learn also from the airplane boarding about things which are more like mathematical and physics.

CO: When you're there and holding back from rushing up and explaining this to them in geometric terms, what's your best preferred method of getting on a plane?

EB: I like to wait towards the end for some reason. I also work on supermarkets and there I do think I'm better now that choosing a line.

CO: Well, I wish I had more time to ask you how you determine which line to get into in the supermarket, but we'll have to leave it there. And Professor Bachmat it has been a lot of fun speaking with you. Thank you.

EB: Thank you. Thank you very much for inviting me.

CH: Eitan Bachmat is an associate professor in the Department of Computer Science at Ben-Gurion University, we reached him in Be'er Sheva, Israel.

[Music]

Part 2: B.C. woman left in a Calgary parking lot as a newborn 32 years ago finds her birth parents

China: Canadian detainees

Guest: Eddie Goldenberg

CH: Eddie Goldenberg says it's time for Canada to do a deal to free Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor from their Chinese jails. As the chief of staff in Jean Chretien's Prime Minister's Office, Mr. Goldenberg had a reputation as Ottawa's ultimate power-broker. Now he's written a piece for The Globe and Mail suggesting that Prime Minister Trudeau should secure the release of the two Canadians in exchange for Meng Wanzhou. The Huawei executive is under house arrest in Vancouver as she prepares for a court date on Monday where she'll be fighting an extradition request from the United States. We reached Eddie Goldenberg in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Goldenberg, your plan to get the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, how would your plan work?

EDDIE GOLDENBERG: Well, let's start this way. There are two Canadians who are rotting in a Chinese jail right now, and they're innocent. And there madam Meng who was arrested a year or so ago in Canada is being held on bail, but being held for extradition hearings to the United States. President Trump, shortly after she was arrested, said that he would use her as a pawn in a negotiation with China, which really makes it a political arrest. And when you look at the situation, the Chinese, whether we agree with them or not -- doesn't matter, believe that madam Meng is a hostage for President Trump. And until she goes back to China, the two Canadians are not going to be released from China to come home.

CO: So you're talking about a swap between these two men and...

EG: That's right.

CO: Her arrest was done under the rule of law. And the two men, quite clear, that they were taken as a tit for tat -- as retaliation. So are you saying, though, that aside from the conditions that that these people are being held in, in China and Canada, are you saying that the detention of the two men in China is the same thing as Canada's detention of Meng Wanzhou?

EG: No, I'm not. Not at all. What I'm saying is that I believe that there are two innocent Canadians who have been arrested and are effectively being held as hostages by the Chinese. And madam Meng is being held at the request of the American administration. And I'm saying we have to be practical in these things. Principle is great that, you know, we will never give in to Chinese blackmail. That's fine. But these two Canadians pay the price for that. And as I said, they've been exchanges. The Israelis do it. The Americans do it. The Germans do it. I don't know why the Canadians can't do it. And it can be done all in accordance with the rule of law, all in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act, and provisions of the extradition treaty with the United States.

CO: You said in your article that we should do whatever it takes in order to bring these people home -- thes two men home. But at the same time what's to stop the Chinese from doing something like this again when they want Canada to comply with some needed demand? What message does that send to China, if we should say, okay well, rule of law is okay until it gets in the way so we'll do this now? What's to say later on...

EG: I'm sorry. I'm not saying until it gets in the way. I'm saying it can be done in accordance with the rule of law using the section of the extradition act. What's to stop them from doing it again? They might very well do it again. What's to stop them if madam Meng is ordered extradited so that we go right through the court process from picking up another three Canadians to put even more pressure? I'm not arguing that the Chinese government is wonderful and will do wonderful things. I'm saying that the liberty of a citizen is really a fundamental objective of a government. We have two Canadians who are innocent, who are being held in Chinese prisons, and there's a way of bringing them home. We don't want to bring them home. We want to wait and wait and wait. That's fine. But I haven't seen anybody who is critical of the approach that I and others have suggested. I haven't seen any of them offer to trade places with the two Canadians in Chinese jails.

CO: You heard the former ambassador to China, David Mulroney, who says your proposal is -- I think he calls it, disingenuous in the extreme. And he says that basically the rule of law cannot be conditional. He says, I think we know that already that China is a system that treats the law as whatever the Communist Party says it is and treats human beings as pawns. And that you're just acknowledging that system by playing with that. What do you say to Mr. Mulroney?

EG: Well, first of all, I know David Mulroney. He's a friend. And I have a lot of respect for it. I disagree with him. But I have a lot of respect for him. What do I say to him? I say if the Chinese system is what he says it is, and I don't dispute that, then it makes it even more important to bring these two people home so they are not treated terribly for the rest of their lives. Where I think he is wrong and he should reread my article is that I am not saying that you suspend the rule of law or you only use it in one way or another. I'm saying that what I have suggested and others have made the same suggestion is strictly in accordance with the rule of law. There is an argument that is being made that the rule of law requires the extradition hearing to go through its normal end and then the appeals processes and whatever. The rule of law also applies to the section of the Extradition Act that gives the minister the power and the authority to cancel any extradition hearing at any time.

CO: China is making Canada pay a price, as you are saying. But Donald Trump has bragged about the detention of Meng Wanzhou. So what price might the Americans make Canada pay if Justin Trudeau was to take your advice?

EG: The Americans who are threatened -- I don't think the Americans will make us pay. And I think we're an independent country.

CO: What makes you so certain of that Mr. Goldenberg?

EG: Put it this way, if Meng Wanzhou were being held in the United States for extradition to Canada and the Chinese had arrested a few Americans and there is a provision in the act that would allow the Americans to send their back to China, they would do it in a nanosecond.

CO: But you know that he can retaliate. So you're willing to take that gamble that there might be some retaliation if Mr. Trudeau took your advice?

EG: You know, the Americans imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum when they had no reason to do it whatsoever. So I don't think that we should act in accordance with a tweet that we might get at 3 o'clock in the morning one day.

CO: Your law firm, Bennett Jones, does a lot of business for China and so does your former boss, Jean Chretien. Is your argument, is this about freeing these two Michaels or is this about getting business back on track with China?

EG: Oh, it's absolutely about freeing the two Michaels, because believe me, you know, without going into who the clients are of a law firm -- one thing I can say is we do infinitely more business in the United States than we do in China. This has nothing to do with the law firm. In fact, I sent the article yesterday about an hour before it came out to my partners. They didn't even know that it was coming out. I'm wearing a public policy hat. I'm doing what I believe is in the interests of Canada. I believe in the interest definitely of the two Michaels. It has nothing to do with -- and frankly, if I were doing it for Chinese business, I wouldn't have been as tough as I am in the article on what the Chinese are doing in Xinjiang.

CO: Mr. Goldenberg, we will leave it there. Thank you.

EG: Thank you Carol.

CH: Eddie Goldenberg is a lawyer at Bennett Jones and served as the chief of staff in Jean Chretien's Prime Minister's Office. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Abandoned baby reunited

Guest: Teanna Elliot

CH: Just over 32 years ago, Bob Ward was running errands in Calgary when he encountered two boys in a parking lot. As he told, As It Happens at the time, they had just made an astonishing discovery.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB WARD: Well, I was just walking back the car from getting groceries. And the one boy said to me, he said "Sir, there's a baby over there in a green plastic bag." So all I did was I just dropped my groceries, went over and picked the baby up and hugged it so it was getting warm.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Was she wearing anything at all?

BOB WARD: No, just the plastic garbage bag. And it's a newborn. When I picked her up, she gurgled just like a newborn baby does you know when they make a little noise. And then after I had her in my arms and was wrapped up round, with my arms around her, she was quiet and quite content.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Is she all right?

BOB WARD: Oh, yeah, she's at perfect health. They figured that she had been two hours old and she had been out approximately for 15 minutes in the cold.

CH: That was Bob Ward speaking with Michael Enright on this program in 1987. The day after he and two boys discovered an abandoned infant in a Calgary parking lot. That infant came to be known as Baby Mary. And not long after surviving that frightening first day, she was adopted and given the name Teanna Elliot by her new family. And that's the only family Ms. Elliot ever knew until recently. Last year, after years of searching, she found her birth parents. And this week, she shared an update with the many Canadians who have followed her search. We reached Teanna Elliot in Kelowna, BC.

CO: Teanna I know you've never heard that interview with Bob Ward before. And what's your reaction listening to that description?

TEANNA ELLIOT: It's kind of cool to hear that someone that was there and experienced that moment. There is a little bit of a negative connotation around this whole situation. So I think it's kind of a positive thing that people can hear that you know what? I was okay. I wasn't in dire stress or anything like that.

CO: And you had only been out for 15 minutes as he said and you seemed quite content.

TE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [Chuckles] I seemed not so bad after all.

CO: So you're pretty tough right from the beginning. [Chuckles]

TE: I think so. [Chuckles]

CO: What did you know about your origins as you were growing up?

TE: So my mom and dad were always very honest. They told me from day one I was adopted. But they kind of held the whole story because they were told by psychologists that, you know what, you might want to wait to tell her this, this is kind of heavy stuff. So I was about 11-12 (or) 13 around there, and I was finally told the entire story about Baby Mary.

CO: You found a photo of yourself as an infant that led to you asking about it. What was that photo?

TE: I am in all white and this lady holding me and I have something attached to my head. So I said to my mom, What do I have on my head? And she said, well, they were testing to make sure you had no drugs in your system. And I said, well, "why would they be doing that?" And she said, Well, you weren't exactly born in a hospital. And then I got this look like, well, "where the heck was I born then?" And she she kind of had to go, well, we don't really know. And it kind of went from there.

CO: And so since then, when did you start to feel that you wanted to actually know your birth parents?

TE: I think I always in the back of my mind did. But I think it really came forward more in my 20s and even more so when I had a daughter myself, because there could be whole things that I'd like to know for her.

CO: But you'd had some pretty complicated emotions leading up to that time, right in your teens.

TE: I did. It wasn't about till I was 16 and that it really really hit me that I thought, "oh my gosh, like I wasn't wanted. I was less. I'm unlovable." And it took me years to get where I am today with this forgiving attitude towards all the parties involved.

CO: How did you finally find your parents, your birth parents?

TE: Well, I did ancestry a few years ago, and it wasn't till about April 2019 that I got a message from someone who said that we shared grandparents. So I found her on Facebook and we figured out that it would be her mom's side of the family because they were all in Alberta. So her mom went and asked her siblings and said, hey, any of you know about a secret child? And both the sisters said no. And it came down to the three brothers and through a paternity test, we figured out it was one of the brothers (that) was my birth dad.

CO: And did your birth dad know that he had a daughter?

TE: He had no idea...no. He was very very surprised to find out that he had at the time a 31-year-old daughter. So him and the aunt that I had been talking to, so his sister, came down to Kelowna and gave us a little visit. And it was cool. It was emotional. It was an unreal feeling to finally meet this person that brought you into this world.

CO: And your dad has a granddaughter I guess he didn't know he had.

TE: Yes. [Chuckles] He even said -- he said, "man, I could deal with having this 31 at the time, 31 year old daughter, but man you've throw this granddaughter thing at me...that was something else. [Laughter]

CO: All right. The hard question: what about your birth mom?

TE: A little bit different and not negative at all. I found her. I was working with a genealogist and she tracked down three women who are sisters. And she said, one of these women are your birth mom. So it came down to actually going through a brother that they have because none of them seem to have Facebook. But I found the brother on Facebook and sent him a message and he asked his sisters and the one confessed everything. And it was hard for her. I think she didn't think that would ever happen. And we've been emailing here and there. But it's been a trickier relationship. She's still dealing with some stuff. So I emailed her and I said, look, let's just get to know each other on a very basic level. And like, what do you do for a living? What's your favorite colour? What are your hobbies?

CO: Do you think that she might feel a bit judged? There's a lot of attention on this story.

TE: I think she does. And she even said that -- before I even emailed her, she said that to her brother that she's quite afraid to come meet me because she is afraid of what others think. If others are judging her. So it has been really hard on her and I totally get it.

CO: Some of the comments, all of the comments, have been expecting you to take some kind of legal action against her. What do you think of that?

TE: I think it's easy for someone to sit behind a computer and voice their opinion. But if you're not in that situation, you have no idea. It took me a long time to get to this place. If you talk to me at 16-17 -- did I have a different attitude? 100 percent. But now that I'm 32 and I've grown, I don't see the point. She's dealt with this emotionally for 32 years now. I think that's enough for her.

CO: You know, listening to you, you sound like such a positive and forgiving person. I wonder what this journey has been like for you, finding your birth parents?

TE: It's been a roller coaster. I mean, you're excited. You're eager. You're happy. But then your sad at the same time. It's just this roller coaster that I've been going through. But I've had a very good support system at work and at home. So it's made it so much easier.

CO: And now you have some people to introduce your daughter to.

TE: I do, yes. [Chuckles] I have lots of people.

CO: Teanna it's really lovely to speak with you and I'm happy for you.

TE: Thank you.

CH: Teanna Elliot recently reconnected with her birth family -- 32 years after she was found in a Calgary parking lot as an infant. We reached her in Kelowna, British Columbia. And for more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Woodpeckers

CH: When Leonard Cohen sings it, "Bird on a Wire" is a beautiful song about longing to be free. Dave Whynot can identify. He's longing to be free of birds on wires. Mr. Whynot lives in Branch LaHave, Nova Scotia. For years, he and his neighbors have been dealing with woodpeckers, chewing holes in overhead phone cables strung up in the area. The local phone company says it's working on a permanent solution. But Mr. Whynot told "Maritime Noon" host Bob Murphy. And he's already had enough.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVE WHYNOT: Oh, yes. It's an ongoing thing for quite a long time.

BOB MURPHY: What's happening?

DAVE WHYNOT: Well, the woodpeckers have cut holes in the lines. And they hit the telephone lines all through the pieces down here in this little community. They won't stop chewing on the wires. So I don't know what [inaudible]trying to make long distance phone calls or what's going on but something is not right.

BOB MURPHY: And just how much damage have they done? If I looked at that three kilometre stretch of wire what would I see?

DAVE WHYNOT: I walked the line, I counted 168 repairs on the line. They put yellow bags, black bags, black tubes over the top to keep water from getting into the lines. They could put a man on the moon but can't fix a telephone line. [Laughs] This has been going on, as I said, for ten years. You can't talk onto it because it gets so noisy that it is unreal. It's ridiculous.

BOB MURPHY: And you're not the only person affected by this?

DAVE WHYNOT: No, no, I'm not the only one. There are people in our community who have businesses, and they have no phones. One lady yesterday I seen on Facebook, she had canceled the phone line because it's just not there. We had no landlines, no dial tone all night long. I have heart problems, my wife had medical problems. And I'm done complaining. I get so frustrated that I just don't know what to do.

CH: That was Dave Whynot of Branch LaHave, Nova Scotia, speaking with "Maritime Noon" host Bob Murphy about his neighbourhood's woodpecker problem.

[Music]

This is the place

CH: I don't understand exactly why jell

o salad is so popular in Utah. Green jello salad specifically. Apparently Utahns eat twice as much green jello as anyone on Earth. And when you read about these salads, it gets even more confusing. One has green jello and cottage cheese and pineapple and mayonnaise. Another has green jello and miniature marshmallows and sour cream and pecans. Okay. So even now that I know that, I also don't understand what this slogan on condoms issued by the Utah Health Department means: "Toss the jello salad." But whatever it's supposed to mean, the governor of Utah does not like it, nor does he like the condom package that says "This is The Place" with a picture of a bed on it. See, when Mormons arrived at Salt Lake Valley in 1847, the message went out from Brigham Young: "This is the place." So that joke and the weird jello salad joke and a bunch of other condom package slogans that I cannot say on the radio are all Utah specific. But the governor, Gary R. Herbert, does not want to be associated with his own state's HIV awareness campaign if it is going to use such saucy taglines. This week, the governor's office issued a statement. It reads in part, "He does not...approve the use of sexual innuendo as part of a taxpayer funded campaign." So he's ordering the health department to rebrand its condoms. So that's a wrap for that wrapping, which is a shame because even though I did not get them, I assume those obscure in-jokes were funny. But I guess they're too much for the governor because they are not getting his rubber stamp.

[Music]

Justin Trudeau

CH: The federal government is offering more than two million dollars of financial assistance to the families of the Canadians and the permanent residents killed on Flight 752. In Ottawa today, Prime Minister Trudeau told reporters that the money is to help with immediate needs, like funeral arrangements and travel. But Mr. Trudeau said the money is not to be confused with the compensation that his government expects to come from those responsible for the crash. Reporters then asked Mr. Trudeau for details on Canada's participation in the investigation and the handling of the black box flight data recorders.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The issue with the black boxes is that they were significantly damaged and it is extremely important, including according to ICAO protocol number 13 I believe, that they be examined as rapidly as possible. Iran does not have the level of technical expertise and mostly the equipment necessary to be able to analyze these damaged black boxes quickly. There are only a few places in the world that can. France has one of the laboratories that can do it. There is a beginning of a consensus that the French have certainly offered to do it. That that would be the right place to send those black boxes to get proper information from them in a rapid way. And that is what we are encouraging the Iranian authorities to agree to.

REPORTER: Yesterday, the five countries spoke about an independent criminal investigation and an impartial judicial proceedings. I was wondering if you thought that that could be done in Iran and is that something that should take place elsewhere?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think it's very clear that that is an important step for the families and for the international community. But it is a separate step from the investigation into what happened. For example, in Canada, our Transportation Safety Board is engaged fully with the investigation, but they are separate from any judicial proceedings or even indeed separate from government. They are a standalone independent agency that is focused on getting answers. We certainly are calling for justice and for criminal steps to be taken if that is what the investigation leads to, as it likely looks like it will. But that is a separate step that we will engage with at the appropriate moment in the appropriate way.

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking to reporters in Ottawa earlier today.

[Music]

Part 3: Squirrel 'had a party' at Georgia couple's new home, doing thousands in damage

Michigan speed limit

Guest: Jonathan Oosting

CH: When it comes to highways, how fast is too fast? Well, in southern Ontario, the province is testing a new speed limit on some highways, bumping it from 100 kilometres per hour to 110. But in one neighboring state, people can drive much faster on some stretches of road. In 2017, Michigan raised speed limits on select rural freeways from 70 miles per hour to 75. That's roughly jumping from 113 kilometres per hour to 121. But since then, the state has not assessed how the new limit has affected road safety. Officials are waiting to have at least three years of data. But Jonathan Oosting didn't want to wait. So he decided to crunch the numbers for himself. He's a reporter with the Bridge Magazine. We reached him in Lansing, Michigan.

CO: Jonathan, what's happened on the roads that have higher speed limits?

JONATHAN OOSTING: Well, we've only got one year of data so far in Michigan. But what we've seen is that, A) motorists are driving faster -- they didn't simply stay at the same rates they had, which some people thought it would. And B) we've seen both crashes and injuries increase in a statistically significant way in the first year. Crashes on these highways that went to 75 miles per hour increased about 17.2 percent over their prior three year average, and injuries were up almost 19 percent in 2018.

CO: Wow. And when you say that, were there assumptions that people would not take advantage of these higher speeds?

JO: Yeah, that's right. It sounds kind of counterintuitive. But in fact, some proponents of higher speed limits argued that drivers were already going at faster speeds. So the state should set a speed limit that more realistically mirrors the rates at which drivers are traveling and they feel safe. But what we have seen, as I mentioned, is that speeds have increased about two miles per hour. So they haven't gone up five miles per hour, but still certainly a noticeable uptick from where they were in 2017.

CO: And when you give those percentages, that's an average, right? So there are some people who are driving a lot faster.

JO: That's right. And in fact, one of the other things we found was that the percentage of people who are now traveling over 80 miles per hour so that's five miles over the speed limit has gone up in a lot of parts of the state too. The Michigan Department of Transportation has seen in some cases as many as 50 percent of drivers now traveling at 80 miles per hour so above that new and higher rate of 75.

CO: Yikes. We will remind our Canadian listeners that when you talk about 75, that's just over 120 kilometres per hour. So we can get a sense of how fast that is. Of course, the assumption is, as it seems common sense, that the reasons why there are more accidents and more fatalities is because of the higher speeds. Is it a simple correlation?

JO: Certainly that's one leading theory. I mean, there's a number of factors that can cause an accident. Roadway conditions. For instance, here in Michigan we're known for having relatively bad roads. The design can play a factor. Things like distracted driving, you know, people checking their cell phones. So we can't say for certain that speed was responsible for these crashes. But what we can do is say that on a whole, crashes have increased. A lot of people were predicting that, in fact, higher speeds would lead to more and more serious crashes because folks simply have slightly less time to make the kind of decisions or corrections that might allow them to avoid a crash on the freeway in the first place.

CO: What were the assumptions in Michigan, though, before they raised these speeds? What studies did they do? What were the assumptions? What were the reasons why they wanted to do it?

JO: Well, I think a lot of the reason was simply that it played well with the public. This was fairly popular at the time and seems to still be. A lot of the motorists I talked to were, you know, aware of higher risks, but still generally appreciative of being able to get where they wanted to go just a little bit faster. That said, there have been research both in Michigan and nationally and I imagine internationally as well that's been pretty clear you know, showing a correlation between higher speeds and fatalities where there's serious crashes. Now, proponents of higher speed limits will also rightly point out that vehicle technology has improved. Cars today have more safety features than they ever have, which might be part of the reason that across the United States at least we have seen fatal crashes decrease rather significantly in recent decades.

CO: The rationale is they want to get where they're going faster, right? So is there a sense that there's a trade-off that they're willing to make that "I'm going to get to the cab and I'm going to get out of town, I'm going to get home 10 minutes or half an hour or 40 minutes faster. And the risk is going to be larger. But I'm willing to have that trade-off." Is that the kind of thinking behind this?

JO: Yeah, that's exactly right. I think it is. Certainly that risk increases, but folks seem to appreciate it. The sponsor of the legislation that became this law says he's still approached almost on a daily basis by folks who thank him for, you know, as you mentioned, making that trip up to northern Michigan to visit their cabin that much faster. Folks I talked to were certainly aware and some of them definitely are scared and don't like the change. But a number of them, even families I talked to, who are traveling with young kids, say in general they appreciate the change despite some of the numbers that we found.

CO: You found these numbers by crunching the data. But the state has said that it wants a full three years of data before they give an assessment. What do you make of that? Do you think that they should accelerate that and bring that on stream much faster?

JO: I think it's important to look at the data after one year like we did. But certainly, you know, there are anomalies, road construction or other weather incidents that can affect one year totals. So, you know, a longer term study of three years, I'm sure, is ultimately going to be more accurate. I doubt after one year of data, there's going to be much political will to revisit these higher speed limits. But perhaps if, you know, these trends continue over two or three years, that folks might start to make the case for changing these speed limits back down.

CO: In Canada, Ontario -- the province has launched a new speed limit. It is testing it out -- a pilot project -- along certain stretches of highways to increased the limit, which is now 100 kilometres and increase it to 110. So roughly going from 60 miles per hour to closer to 70 miles per hour. It's something that already exists in other provinces. What advice would you give to Ontario? What should they consider before they make that permanent?

JO: Well, I would look at the research. There are warning signs about what higher speed limits can mean in terms of safety, but also what it can mean in terms of productivity gains. I mean, anecdotally, folks seem to appreciate saving a little bit of time, but I think it's important for policymakers to really consider the safety implications as well.

CO: Jonathan, thank you for your reporting.

JO: Thank you.

CH: Jonathan Oosting is the Michigan politics reporter for the Bridge Magazine. And we reached him in Lansing, Michigan.

[Music]

Gautam Tiwari

CH: Gautam Tiwari and his family are looking for justice. But first, they need to find a courtroom. In 2014, Mr. Tiwari's brother took his own life while under suicide watch in the psychiatric unit of a Brampton, Ontario hospital. When his family didn't get the answers they wanted from the hospital, they turned to the legal system, launching a multi-million dollar lawsuit. This month, they were supposed to get their day in court. Instead, they're still waiting after being told that there isn't a single courtroom available in the Toronto area to hear the case. As Gautam Tiwari told CBC Toronto, the delays make it harder to say goodbye to his brother, Prashant.

SOUNDCLIP

GAUTAM TIWARI: First, to prepare for the pretrial, we've had to like gather his photos. Yeah, basically essentially run through his life and his memories and prepare them. And so we're constantly very vividly reliving, I guess, the trauma. And then when we're told that we have to delay it, it's like, okay, now we're going to have to go through this all over again a year from now. And it just kind of validates the lack of trust. Like, okay we decided to trust the hospital and now it feels like we were blind to do that. We blindly trusted the hospital, which we shouldn't have. And then now that my brother's dead and we're looking for some sort of closure, the same thing. It's like if we leave it up to the judicial system, it's not going to get done unless again we have to fight for it. And it just became a thing where it's like you assume these bodies are there for you and that I'm now realizing and learning that it's every person for themselves. It's difficult. It's hard.

CH: That's Gautam Tiwari speaking to CBC Toronto.

[Music]

Georgia squirrel destruction

Guest: Dustin Drees

CH: Dustin Drees and his family were looking forward to spending time in their new house after the holidays. Their nice, fresh, clean, new house. Then they got home from vacation and realized that their home had been invaded by a small-hearted vandal with beady eyes. Adorable tail, though. We reached Dustin Drees in Atlanta.

CO: Dustin, can you take us back to the moment you opened your door after your vacation -- what was the first thing you saw that indicated that something was wrong?

DUSTIN DREES: First thing I saw was a bunch of wood chips all over the floor. And under the windows we have a little sort of opening by the front door where, you know, there's a closet and a place to put your shoes and stuff. And it was just everywhere. And then I could see sort of along the doorjamb and along the door, it looked like you could see where the wood, where the paint wasn't there and wood had come out. So initially I thought someone had busted the door open.

CO: Yikes. And so you what did you do at that point? You're with your family. Did you hesitate from proceeding any further?

DD: I didn't. I probably should've. But the alarm had gone off a couple of days prior. And we had, I think, our alarm company sent the police over a check as well as we had sent a friend over to check on, you know, if there was any forced entry or anything like that. And there wasn't. And so when I walked in and saw that, I thought, okay, maybe something did happen. So my first thought was to call the police.

CO: And so as you proceeded in the house, what did you you encounter?

DD: So we started looking around. And the TV was still there. And I had left out a gift card from earlier that was still there. And then I started seeing the windows -- the bottom half of the windows -- looked like someone took like a chisel to it or something. And it had been really, really scratched up and chewed up. At first I thought maybe someone had tried to bust in the window with like a crowbar or an ax or something. But then I saw it in more and more places and nothing was taken. And immediately in my mind went to some sort of animal.

CO: Well, I understand that the kitchen tap was on.

DD: Yeah, that was weird. [Chuckles] You know, maybe it's because it was Christmas time and we just watched Home Alone. So, you know, you think of the wet bandits [laughter] and how they leave stuff on. So it was bizarre.

CO: Okay. So worthy of a CSI investigation. How did you actually find out the cause?

DD: Like I said, we started looking around. I could start seeing marks along all the windows. And then you could see sort of excrement and that sort of thing what looked to be, you know, from some sort of animal. And so that was when we figured it was an animal. We realized, you know, probably wasn't good to have our daughter there. So we went to go leave. I sent my wife and daughter out. I went to grab something in the house. And as I did, I saw something jump from -- and it was quick. -- and it looked like a squirrel jumped from the couch to sort of behind this mirror we have above the mantle.

CO: Okay. So the culprit was still on the premises.

DD: Apparently.

CO: And the culprit was...

DD: It was a squirrel.

CO: Oh, okay. Well, they can cause a fair bit of damage too. So how did this squirrel get into your house?

DD: Our thought is it came down the chimney because the flue wasn't totally closed. You know, we thought we had a chimney cap on there, but I don't know -- it could've blown off. I mean, who knows what happened. But somehow it got down -- well we think the chimney, because later it looked like it tried to go back up the chimney.

CO: Maybe Santa Claus left it open or something.

DD: Yeah. And who knows? They didn't leave anything else though, which is a bummer.

CO: [Laughter] Nothing was stolen. So, you know, this was a squirrel. Did this squirrel have any accomplices or was he or she working alone?

DD: That was the only thing we found when we later had sort of a critter catcher guy come by because we weren't able to get it out of the house. He looked around. And when you think squirrels, you think, did they get in through the attic or anything like that? But he ran through a bunch of different rooms. You could see sort of like he chewed on probably 10 of the 13 windows and the plantation shutters and everything., you know, ran across both the that. Somehow fell on the toilet and I don't know if he was doing a backstroke in there or something. But it was pretty crazy.

CO: How much damage was done to your house?

DD: So we still have not been able to get a complete estimate. But we think, given the windows and everything, we think it's probably 15 to 20 thousand dollars.

CO: I understand your insurance company is saying that they don't cover this.

DD: Yeah. So, you know, when we saw the damage, obviously we were stressed. But we thought, okay, this is we have home insurance. You know, we're first time homeowners and figured it would be covered. But when it came down brass tacks, there's something called the rodent exclusion. So there's a bunch of exclusions in your homeowners policy, which I'm now an expert in. But it was sort of any damage, no matter what, caused by birds, rodents or vermin is excluded.

CO: They don't say squirrels.

DD: They don't. They say rodent. And I guess a squirrel is defined as a rodent. So my, I guess, misunderstanding was the house was new to us, had been cleaned, you know, we had just moved in. It wasn't a maintenance issue. And so we thought, you can't exactly Google squirrel falling down chimney ransacking house. There aren't a whole ton of examples like that. So we thought it was a unique case that would sort of be cut and dry and we'd be able to move on with it.

CO: And what's become of your home invader?

DD: I don't know. The guy caught him and he said normally when they have him, they take him at least 10 to 15 miles away so they don't come back. Maybe it ended up in a soup or something, but he said he took him away and let him go.

CO: All right. Well, maybe he's probably just as happy to be out of your house as you are to have him out.

DD: I'm sure. I'm sure.

CO: Dustin, I hope you get back home soon. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DD: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

CH: Dustin Drees recently had his home vandalized by a squirrel. We reached him in Atlanta, Georgia. And if you want to see what that squirrel did to his home check out our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Ideas Promo

CH: As computers learn to think more like people, it's opening a world of possibilities and potential dangers. Tonight, after As It Happens, CBC's "Ideas" looks at how machines are getting smarter and what that means for us, whether it's self-driving cars or devices we control with our thoughts. Roger Melko is a physics professor at the University of Waterloo and he explores how we got here and what's making computers more powerful.

SOUNDCLIP

ROGER MELKO: This is something very new in the world of computer science. It's a new breed of algorithms. Artificial intelligence. That's what we call it. And a subset of these I'm going to talk about. These algorithms are called Neural Networks. So this new breed of algorithm DES tasks that seem impossible for computers, but are possible for human minds like adult human minds. If you want to have a computer that simulates an adult mind, you know, essentially you should build a computer that's like a child's mind. And you should take that child's mind and teach it, expose it to data, educate it. So what does this mean? You know, educate a computer and obtain the adult brain? Well, these algorithms, these deep neural networks are called that for a reason. They're essentially motivated or, you know, a design based on principles that we see in human and animal brains.

CH: That's Roger Melko at a public lecture hosted by the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Ontario. And you can hear that full episode of Ideas with Nahlah Ayed right after As It Happens tonight at 8:00. 8:30 in Newfoundland.

[Music]

Impeachment sketch artist

Guest: Art Lien

CH: Next week, when the US Senate begins its impeachment trial of President Donald Trump millions of people will be watching. But what they see and how they see it will be tightly controlled. There are strict rules prohibiting taking photos or video within the Senate chamber, so most viewers will have to settle for the government operated C-SPAN feed. But that won't stop Art Lien. For more than 40 years, Mr. Lien has worked as a courtroom sketch artist, primarily covering the Supreme Court. But over the next few weeks, he'll be using his sketching skills to capture this historic trial. We reached Art Lien in Baltimore.

CO: Art, I know you usually spend your days at the Supreme Court. So what is it like to be at this very different kind of trial?

ART LIEN: Well, it's unique. Definitely different. I did sketch the Clinton impeachment, which I guess was about 20 years ago. So I'm expecting it will be somewhat similar.

CO: And what do you hoping to capture that?

AL: That I'm kind of wondering. I covered the Senate years ago before there were cameras in the Senate. And those seats that I used to occupy that gave me the best view are now occupied by television video cameras.

CO: All right. So as you point out, though, they don't allow news cameras into the Senate chamber -- the entire thing will be recorded by C-SPAN. So what do you bring to this that C-SPAN and that camera cannot do?

AL: Actually, quite a bit. You know, the cameras are trained and are static. There's a lot that goes on in the galleries that the cameras aren't going to capture. I am basically looking for colour. You know, for the apple on the desk. The Senators having a conversation between themselves. You know, I'm looking for the small details. Those kind of things. For example, at the last impeachment trial, Clinton's impeachment trial, I noticed that Justice Kennedy came in at one point and was up in the VIP gallery. So if something like that happened, that's what I'm there for.

CO: The C-SPAN camera can't turn around and capture somebody like that coming in the room. So you would be able to record that moment?

AL: Yes, I would.

CO: You've had some sketches already from the set up for the impeachment trial. What were some of the moments you got yesterday?

AL: Well, I was waiting for the house managers to file in an exhibit, the articles of impeachment. So that was definitely a shot I was looking for. The problem with sketching is if you look down at your paper, you miss a lot. So sometimes you have to just not sketch and just look. But what happened is when they got down into the well, they lined up and Adam Schiff read the the articles of impeachment. And so that was sort of my shot. There definitely was a seriousness, you know, a gravity to the whole proceeding. And I kind of abandoned that idea of them walking in.

CO: And you got Senate leaders McConnell and Schumer and taking the oath. Why did you grab that one?

AL: It's an iconic moment. They're being sworn in and they're taking an oath to be impartial.

CO: So what are your limitations? I mean, you need to bring in your toolkit. What are you able to bring into the room?

AL: Very little. I actually tried to pair everything down to just a pencil and a notepad. During the Clinton impeachment hearings, I think there was some complaints about artists bringing in large pads and equipment. So therefore, I travel very lightly.

CO: What did you learn from covering the Clinton impeachment that you will be bringing into the Senate chamber next week?

AL: The last impeachment I think what I'm carrying from that is that I have plenty of time and I need to relax and observe because I am looking for those unusual moments, the things you wouldn't normally expect. My strongest memory from the Clinton impeachment was when Dale Bumpers, who was acting on behalf of President Clinton, said, "When they say it's about sex, it's not about sex."

CO: So how do you represent that in a picture?

AL: Well, I had Dale Bumpers delivering his argument. You know, the whole argument was, you know, here Clinton had this affair, but really we're not impeaching him for that. We're impeaching him because he's lied about the affair. And I guess Dale Bumpers was basically saying, well, when they say it's not about sex, it's really about sex.

CO: I'm not sure that the impeachment articles dealing with Ukraine will give you those sexy moments.

AL: Right. Okay. [Chuckles].

CO: Okay Art we'll be watching for your sketches then.

AL: Oh, you're welcome.

CH: Art Lien is a long-time courtroom sketch artist who's covering the impeachment trial of US president Donald Trump. We reached Mr. Lien in Baltimore.

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January 17, 2020 Episode Transcript

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