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The AIH Transcript for September 13, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Ali Hassan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

ALI HASSAN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

AH: Tonight...

CO: A poor-judgment call. Newfoundland cabinet minister Perry Trimper resigns after accidentally leaving an unsavory voicemail on an Innu constituent's phone -- tonight he'll tell us about calling that constituent to apologize.

AH: Running for everyone's lives. A feature interview with Green Party Leader Elizabeth May who doesn't just want to save social programs or taxpayer dollars, she wants to save the world.

CO: Every day they behold where they might be held. Workers in India are constructing a camp to house people accused of being illegal immigrants -- some of them fear they may end up behind the walls they've built.

AH: An even more difficult talk about the birds and the bees. We already know certain insecticides threaten bees and other pollinators but new research suggests they're also sickening migratory birds.

CO: They've got junk mail -- and male junk. A study of French postmen's testicles is among this year's winners of the most prestigious prize for egregious research: an Ig Nobel prize.

AH: And blowing this poop-sicle stand. Extremely thorough research by our guest has exposed the shocking truth -- it is not in fact possible to fashion a knife out of frozen excrement that is sharp enough to cut up the meat. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that doesn't need to study a frozen poop knife to know that it is not going to cut it.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Why scientists tried — and failed — to make a knife out of frozen poop

Newfoundland minister resigns

Guest: Perry Trimper

AH: Perry Trimper has resigned as cabinet minister in Newfoundland and Labrador less than 24 hours after his unsavory voicemail message made the news. Mr. Trimper left that message this week on the cell phone of an executive member of the Innu Nation. Mr. Trimper thought he had hung up. He had not. And what followed was his candid conversation with another person about how the Innu people were using, quote, "the race card." Last night we spoke with the recipient of that voicemail -- Dominic Rich -- who said he was shocked by the politician's comments. Tonight we've reached that politician Perry Trimper. He's in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

CO: Mr. Trimper when we spoke with Dominic Rich last night on this program he told us he didn't just feel disturbed by your words -- what he heard in that phone message -- he said he felt betrayed. Do you understand why?

PERRY TRIMPER: Well Mr. Rich and I have known each other for many years and worked well together. As far as I can recall, we've never had anything come behind us or between us -- I'm sorry -- until this incident.

CO: He said that you had been with him in moments of grief, in personal moments, you had been with him and his people -- through all kinds of ups and downs and he always thought that you were sympathetic but this is such a disappointment to him.

PT: Yes that's correct. And that is the person I am. I guess I have two points Carol. One is that there are words in the recording that I absolutely regret and I cringe when I hear them. However a lot of the commentary this conversation that got recorded that I wasn't aware of -- a lot of it is out of context and it would take some time to explain but it really doesn't matter. At the end of the day I'm sorry. And I expressed that to Mr. Rich last night.

CO: The phone messages -- you're talking to somebody else, you don't know the message is still being recorded and you're telling somebody else this Innu guy on the phone accusing us of having bias, they don't have translators and you say they think it's their God given right to have these services. With whom are you speaking?

PT: It was a friend on the street and I'm not revealing that person's name because I don't see it as being relevant. Really the issue here is that a cabinet minister was speaking very inappropriately and I realized that -- that's also why I resigned from cabinet today. I felt that the attention was drifting to the Premier and to my cabinet colleagues and this was my mistake.

CO: So the reason why I ask about with whom you're speaking is because we spoke again with Dominic Rich today about all of this and he wants to know if this woman with whom you're speaking is actually someone who works for the government because he says just for you to leave and to have somebody else who's perhaps still at the table who is saying what this woman saying on the tape -- they have a feeling of entitlement to it. To which you say the race card comes up all the time. The conversation you're having with her reflects badly on whoever this woman is and she feels comfortable saying that to you -- she feels that she can make these kinds of racist remarks. And is she in the government?

PT: Again I'm not going to comment Carol. I don't need to drag other people into it. It could have been anyone.

CO: Dominic Rich says you called him last night to apologize. What did he say to you?

PT: Well he was very upset. And you know that hurts. I tried to explain to him the context of what I was -- some of the remarks and so on. I apologized to him for my -- I don't know if I can use the word perhaps venting. So I did my best to explain to him. It wasn't a long conversation. He was upset and did not want to speak any further.

CO: You said in the tape -- we can hear -- you said 'the race card comes up all the time. Man don't play that on me. I've been 32 years working with those guys. Don't play that on me.' You say that that's not who you are. The person that Dominic Rich knows is the real you. But these are your thoughts -- these are when you think that no one's listening this is what you say. So what do...

PT: And again it's difficult. Anyway I'll try to explain what I meant by that line is basically much of my professional and personal career and time in Labrador -- these 32 years -- has been working with in or around the Innu. And I have been challenged as a politician and otherwise when you're trying to resolve someone's request and get to the bottom of it. And I've had people say to me 'Trimper Perry you're not dealing with what I want -- you're not providing what I want. You must be racist towards the Innu.' And my line has been to them I say 'please don't say that to me. Please don't play that card.' And I'm sorry for the phraseology of it but much of my life has been dedicated to advancing and supporting the Innu as they move towards self-government.

CO: Can we just then discuss what you wanted which is -- and I've seen correspondence going back several years of a request that they have Innu translators when people go to do their drivers tests, the written test....

PT: And that is the case. And there is an issue that has come up and this is something I was dealing with through my constituency office. So I was trying to get to the bottom of why government was concerned about how the translating was being done. So there's some issues in there that I was investigating and I was seeking the help of the assistant deputy minister and that was the message I was leaving for Dominic to advise him that I did have people looking into the matter.

CO: But maybe -- and I don't just put this at your feet -- but the government of Dwight Ball and several years they were asking for -- it's pretty simple...I mean to get some translations so they can get these licenses they need for work. I was just looking it up in Ontario you can get the written test translated into about 15 different languages including Hindi and Serbo-Croatian. What would be so difficult -- after all these years -- to have provided them with translating services so they could get their licenses and do the written test in Innu?

PT: What I can tell you is I do believe the government has attempted to find translators through depositions but has been unable to fill them So Dominic has been filling that role and I really don't know much more about that.

CO: Well maybe the way toward reconciliation here is that you can get that fixed.

PT: Yeah. Why not. Absolutely.

CO: Are you going to do that?

PT: Well you know I still have a request of standing -- I am still the MHA for the area and I have a request in and I know the department is looking into it and I look forward to their response and I'll provide it to Mr. Rich and we'll see what we can do.

CO: Well maybe if it had been solved you wouldn't be in this pickle right now.

PT: Yeah. Perhaps.

CO: Mr. Trimper thank you.

PT: Okay. Thanks Carol.

AH: Perry Trimper used to be the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Environment for the Newfoundland and Labrador government. He resigned today but will remain as a Liberal. MHA. We reached him in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

[Music]

IG Nobel Awards

Guest: Marc Abrahams

CO: When studying postmen -- as in men who deliver the mail -- a pair of researchers in France were hung up on a single question. One you may have asked yourself. What they wanted to know is the internal temperature of a postman's scrotum. More specifically and this is the key: Was one testicle warmer than the other? The researchers were very enthusiastic about the subject matter. There's no question about that. Where there is a question about it is...why. But Marc Abrahams, for one, is glad they pursued it. He's the editor of The Annals of Improbable Research. And last night he awarded the postman-scrotum-study -- and several others -- the coveted 2019 Ig Nobel Prizes. We reached Mr. Abrahams in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

CO: Marc don't leave us hanging here. Can the left and right testicles of a French mailman actually be different temperatures?

MARC ABRAHAMS: Oh yes. According to the study that won an Ig Nobel Prize last night done by a couple of French scientists it's very common in France that the left and right testicles of the postmen are different temperatures.

CO: This is the thermal symmetry of the human scrotum study.

MA: Yes yes exactly -- same study.

CO: They went further to look at the naked or clothed postmen in France. Do you have any idea how they did their research?

MA: Yes I do. [Laughter] They put temperature sensors on the left testicle and the right testicle of the postman. And I think it was every two minutes they would take a reading of the temperature. They chose postmen because they wanted to see what happened over the course of a day or many hours of people who are on their feet walking around. They also did a similar thing with people who spend all day sitting for a living -- bus drivers -- and found more or less the same thing with both of them.

CO: And you know that men everywhere who are listening to this interview either sitting down or walking around are now thinking about this very thing.

MA: Yeah and I'm sure there are a few people listening who have temperature sensors who are spending all of their thought at this moment trying to think of the best way to apply this to themselves.

CO: We always have you on when this annual event happens and there is always so many extraordinary prize winners. But this is the 29th year of honoring trivial achievements in academics. But you introduced a way of reminding people they have only 60 seconds to thank the audience for their prize...

MA: Every year we go out and we find a very cute 8-year-old girl who has ice water in her veins -- it's very important that we find someone with that right personality. She sits on stage the whole time and I introduced her at the start of the night and explain whenever she feels that somebody has talked long enough she will let them know. The way she does this is to walk across the stage up to the person who's talking into the microphone, look up at that person and say "Please stop I'm bored. Please stop. I'm bored." She doesn't stop until they do. And it works.

CO: And apparently it doesn't always work because you had some researchers who were winning a prize who wouldn't stop.

MA: We had an epic battle last night. One of the winners -- a doctor from Japan -- he had a lot to say and he seemed determined to say it no matter what this little girl did. He kept it up for oh maybe 20 or 30 seconds which felt like an eternity but then he gave up. There was no way he was going to win.

CO: And what was his study?

MA: This is Dr. Watanabe. He did a study to measure how much saliva is produced in a typical day by a typical 5-year-old child. He came from Japan all the way over to Massachusetts to collect his prize and he brought with him his three sons who are now adults. 35 years ago when he did this study his three sons, who were children at that time, they were the ones who drooled for him to collect. And last night up on the stage at Harvard he had his sons there drooling again to demonstrate.

CO: On As It Happens the reason why we love having you on to tell about the awards but also because we have often done a number on the prize winning science experiments. We told our listeners last November about wombat poop -- that it comes out in a cube form. And I understand the wombat poop folks won an Ig Nobel last night.

MA: Oh yes they did. Some of them came up from Georgia Tech University and the other part of the team flew in all the way from Tasmania, Australia. The Tasmanians -- one of them put on a gigantic wombat costume and a couple of the scientists from Georgia Tech were wearing gigantic wombat poo costumes [laughter] and how shall I put this...it seemed to catch the imagination of everybody there.

CO: You know sometimes after 29 years of you doing these awards I wonder if there are academics who actually publish studies so they can maybe get an Ig Nobel. And the one I'm thinking of is the Ig Nobel for biology for discovering that dead magnetized cockroaches behave differently than living magnetized cockroaches.

MA: Well to take your questions in order -- yes, there are people who do experiments and publish papers in hopes of getting an Ig Nobel Prize. They never win. It's very clear when we see those because they just don't have the right quality of funny and usually they're not thought-provoking. So those never win but there are a lot of things like the cockroach study that don't seem at all funny to the people who do it and they're trying to answer some particular question which may seem obscure to other people who haven't had much reason to think about it. And it's only at some point later that somebody points out to them what it looks like to the rest of the world. The cockroach people I think were not aware of the Ig Nobel Prize before they got it. That's true of most of the people who win the prizes -- there is a double quality, it's serious and yet it's funny at the same time.

CO: Anyway Marc we will speak again next year.

MA: Thank you.

CO: Take care yourself.

MA: Okay. You too.

AH: Marc Abrahams is editor of the Annals of Improbable Research and the man behind the annual Ig Nobel Prize. We reached him in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

[Music]

Frozen poo knives

Guest: Metin Eren

AH: Your lost on the Arctic tundra. The temperature is dropping. You do have a sandwich -- but you can't eat said sandwich without cutting it and you have no knife. Then suddenly you remember something from a book by Canadian anthropologist Wade Davis. A story of a man who triumphed in similarly dire circumstances. And now there's hope. All you have to do is make a knife out of your own frozen poop. That story of a man forging a sharp blade from his own feces appeared in Mr. Davis's 1998 book "Shadows in the Sun." So it's a real story. But could it possibly be a true story? Professor Metin Eren and his colleagues felt that it was important to find out. Professor Eren is an archaeologist and anthropologist at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio.

CO: Professor Eren first of all can you just give us the gist of this story that Wade Davis tells in his book?

METIN EREN: Yeah. So the story basically is that there was an Inuit man who was being forced to move off of his settlement and his family took away his tools in order to convince him to come along with them and he refused to move off of his homeland. So in the midst of a winter gale he defecated into his hands and fashioned a knife from the frozen feces using a spray of saliva. Then the story goes that he killed a dog with that knife, used this rib cage as a sled, and used its tide to harness another dog. And he sped off into the night.

CO: Wow that's quite a story.

ME: It is quite a story. And it's one that I think has captured the imagination of lots of people including myself. When that book came out in 1998, I heard Wade Davis tell that same story to Diane Rehm on NPR. And because I heard that story I was inspired to go into anthropology. And in fact I still today have the tape cassette that I ordered from NPR of that Wade Davis interview. So I think you know Professor Davis has just been an inspiration to just countless people around the world.

CO: And so it's a fascinating story. But you decided to apply a lot of skepticism to this story. Why is that?

ME: Well little did I know that 20 years after this story came out I would be co-director of an experimental archaeology lab here at Kent State. And we regularly reproduce ancient technologies in order to reverse engineer them. And figure out how they work. And it was late last year that it just sort of hit me that this idea of a knife being fashioned from frozen human feces had never really been tested before. And I think as any good scientist we were curious.

CO: I mean in order to do it you had to recreate conditions that might have been around this Inuit man and his decision to escape this way. So how did you go about doing that?

ME: Well I mean it's first important to note that no experiment is ever perfect and no experiment can ever perfectly replicate reality. But we did the best we could and so what I did was for eight days I went on a high protein and high fatty acid diet which is sort of consistent with an Arctic diet. And after a few days of that I started producing the necessary test samples then we start freezing the samples and to be honest I was surprised at how hard frozen human feces could become. And you know during the course of an experiment scientists start to see pattern, they have intuition about the results. And I start to wonder this may just work. We may actually make a knife out of frozen human feces.

CO: Okay so the story is that he fashioned this knife out of his frozen feces and then he proceeded to -- basically -- to skin and disarticulate a dog that he used as a sled. So how did you reproduce that part of it?

ME: Well what we wanted to do was give our knives the best possible chance to succeed. So we actually had dry ice with us. And so we're able to stick the knives into negative 50 degrees centigrade dry ice to get these things really really cold. And then in addition to that we had a metal file and so we're able to sharpen these feces knives as best as we could. And then what we did was we used refrigerated meat instead of a fresh kill because we thought well a fresh kill in that story would be a warm thing that would potentially melt the knives. And we want to see if these knives could cut so we used refrigerated meat. So we really put in place variables that allowed these knives the best chance to succeed -- it was a very conservative test. Unfortunately when we went to use these frozen knives it was like a brown crayon. Unfortunately it just left very nasty streaks on our meat and they didn't cut at all.

CO: So what have you learned from this? [Laughs]

ME: Well you can't really approach the study with anything other than a sense of humor. But you know we did this for a reason. We know from countless studies over the last 100 years that Indigenous and prehistoric people have produced mind-blowing technologies and just very innovative ways to solve problems. And I think in some ways that's one reason why this story of a frozen knife made from feces was so widely adopted across the academic and public literature because it fits that narrative. The problem though is that once you have stories that are unsupported -- supporting narratives and stances of any kind, then it becomes a slippery slope and other stories that are unsupported can also then be used to support stances and narratives. And then once you're in that situation you're in real trouble because then you can start using unsupported non-evidence based stories to support narratives and stances that are harmful to society: racist ones, prejudice ones, and the like. And so I think at the end of the day what this study does is it reaffirms the importance of evidence based science.

CO: Do you think it's possible there's any other kind of tool you can make from frozen poop? I mean just in case someone wants to try this.

ME: Oh my goodness. I mean surprisingly in our literature review for this study human feces have been used for all sorts of technologies. Sometimes prehistoric or Indigenous people would dip their arrowheads in human feces as a sort of poison. In historic times balls of flaming feces would be used in trebuchet -- sort of catapult. In fact it was a recent study as well where researchers were actually creating plastics from human feces so you know the idea of human feces being used and the human technological record isn't outside the realm of possibility.

CO: Well you've opened up a whole other area of recycling for people.

ME: Unfortunately so.

CO: [Laughter] Professor Eren thank you for telling us your story.

ME: Thank you very much for having me.

AH: Metin Eren is an archaeologist and anthropologist with Kent State University. We reached him in Kent, Ohio. And we've got more on that story including photos of the useless poop knife on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Karaoke Whales

AH: For far too long we humans have contented ourselves with the idea that we are unique from all other species in the animal kingdom. And we've believe the traits that set us apart from other animals also place us on top of the evolutionary ladder. We're not just special, we're superior. And yet one defining characteristic is never touted as evidence of this supposed superiority: our habit of gathering in groups to take turns singing to one another -- more often than not, badly. We tend to address it only euphemistically: we call it "doing karaoke." So it's no surprise we don't list it among our exceptional traits. It actually makes us question our own evolutionary supremacy. But it turns out there's another reason we shouldn't feel special about drunkenly hollering "Don't Stop Believin" because there's at least one other species that engages in karaoke...Humpback whales. And they do it better than we do. After studying the migrating patterns of humpbacks in the South Pacific for decades, scientists have homed in on an area about 1100 kilometres off the coast of New Zealand. Raoul Island as it's called appears to be a layover between the breeding and feeding grounds of humpback whales where males of different pods exchange songs with one another which they then incorporate into their own mating calls. So you know a lot like our karaoke but the only swill around is seawater. So you know these whale singers must be killer.

[Music]

Part 2: Elizabeth May on the oilsands, Quebec and benefiting from the NDP's decline

Elizabeth May

Guest: Elizabeth May

AH: Elizabeth May has set herself some lofty goals in this election campaign. The Green Party leader isn't satisfied with polls that put her party within reach of real power in the next parliament. Ms. May says her true ambition is nothing less than saving the world. With the clock running down on reversing or even slowing down climate change she claimed in last night's debate that she's the only leader with a plan to turn things around. Green Party Leader Elizabeth May joined us in our Toronto studio.

CO: Elizabeth May welcome to the As It Happens studio.

ELIZABETH MAY: It's really wonderful to be here. I'm so used to talking to you on the phone.

CO: That's right. Now how did you feel about the debate last night?

EM: I felt very good about it actually. I mean it was disappointing that Justin Trudeau decided not to come. But I felt that sticking to issues, talking about the platform -- I have a lot of depth of knowledge in all the topic areas that were being debated last night. So I felt very confident and at ease. And I hope -- I mean I'm not the right person to ask -- but I thought I won.

CO: Well the reviews are in and very full of praise for your performance. This moment when you went over to shake Justin Trudeau's non-hand. I remember even the 2015 election you were full of praise for Justin Trudeau -- it was an unusual thing. People pointed out that you're not with elbows out against your opponent. You always admired him. Do you still have that admiration for Justin Trudeau?

EM: I'd say I have fondness. I try to be friends with everyone. You know I think it helps. I think it helps achieve things in parliament and we can work together. And the shaking of the hand of the person who wasn't there was really just a bit of teasing. I didn't mean it to be mean in any way. But I have to say people say he's broken promises -- that's too weak to express how I feel. These are massive betrayals. We were told 2015 would be the last election held under First Past-The Post. I committed myself fully to the parliamentary committee on electoral reform. And we heard from thousands -- we heard from over 100,000 Canadians overwhelmingly [who] want to get rid of first past-the post and have fair voting. And I know a number of friends of mine who had been in parliament in the Harper majority government who didn't win their seats for re-election and said well it was because I had people coming up to me and saying I have to vote Liberal this time but I don't have to do it after that because Justin Trudeau's promise, we're getting rid of first past-the post. We were also promised we were going to be climate leaders. I never imagined in 2015 that in 2019 Canada's target for action would remain unchanged from that of Stephen Harper. So these are massive.

CO: Massive betrayal you say but what does that mean then if you are in a situation where you can be -- almost say the kingmaker -- where you can actually, if it is a minority government that you can support the Liberals. Would you? Would you support the Liberals given that you feel massively betrayed by Justin Trudeau?

EM: Well I think that one could look back and say what a tragedy for all those wonderful promises that the Liberals with 40 percent of the popular vote due to First Past-The Post got a majority because if they had had to have our support from the beginning the promises would have been kept. This is something about minority parliaments that really matters. The term is used 'prop up' as though you make a decision once and then you ride out bad consequences. And I look back at a minority parliament of Lester B. Pearson. That parliament delivered health care, Canada Pension Plan, unemployment insurance. It was a minority. But there were 17 New Democrats who back in those days cared more about getting things done than who got the credit.

CO: Would you support Justin Trudeau in that way? Would you have worked with him and his party?

EM: I will work with anyone who is prepared to deliver on the essential crisis right now -- the existential crisis which is the climate crisis. Canada is one of the laggards in the industrialized world. Our record is terrible. And if we got any collection of members of parliament from any collection of parties to say this government will move our target to a plan that is consistent with holding to 1.5 degrees Celsius and we will take that campaign global to ensure that the world meets the language of the Paris Treaty which is to hold global average temperature to no more than 1.5 degrees C warming. In order to hang on to human civilization I'll work with absolutely anyone but not a blank check.

CO: You would work with Andrew Scheer -- it seems unlikely that he will come to the point where you're discussing...

EM: Seems very unlikely but we have to talk to everyone. My colleagues in Green parties around the world have had this experience more than we have had in Canada. Although the leader of the Green Party of British Columbia Andrew Weaver did the same process of first they talked to Christy Clark's Liberals and I can tell you I got a million emails from people saying would they prop up Christy Clark...well they're talking. That's what you do.

CO: But talking to everybody and working within the parliamentary system means in order to get things done compromises, tradeoffs -- you have been criticised in the course of this -- first of all you declared that it would be on a war footing when it comes to climate change. But you've also said it's important to defend jobs and that you have said that there are still more use for the oil sands. You said that in your policy. And a lot of your own people including...

EM: Not a lot.

CO: Well the Quebec Greens for instance are saying that this contradiction...

EM: There is no contradiction. There is no contradiction. The oil sands will be phased out by 2030 or 2035 in that frame -- in that timeframe. We're talking about very clearly 60 percent reductions in greenhouse gases in this country by 2030. You don't get to that by -- and you can't have a single fossil fuel expansion, you can't have any new drilling, you have to ban fracking to make this happen, you have to cancel LNG plants, you don't build a pipeline, you don't have any new fossil fuel infrastructure. But you do want to take care of workers. Of course you do because the Green Party is committed to equity and workers need time for that fair transition.

CO: But you continue with the oil sands...

EM: For 10 to 15 years -- that's the phase out.

CO: Can you not see how some people -- especially young people -- can see that as some kind of well even hypocrisy? You can say there is a one side -- that you want a war footing that the planet is on facing extinction, but maybe we have to work with the oil sands.

EM: Carol if you look at our plan and our carbon budget -- and we'll be putting more details online with our platform -- this is a Herculean task and a transformation of our economy to meet the carbon budget. There is no compromising with a carbon budget. But when you're looking at how fast can we build up the key energy infrastructure that we need which is a Canadian grid system that works from province to province, east to west, and north, that takes some time. We have to build up infrastructure to deliver 100 percent renewable energy -- 100 percent renewable electricity. We have to stop having the internal combustion engine at all. These things take some time.

CO: But again you have just said this is a crisis -- and we had David Suzuki on the show yesterday who said that he's now going coast to coast talking to young people and he says he doesn't see a single party that represents the crisis that he is talking about. That young people don't have an option with the Green Party.

EM: David is a good friend and I know he is making the tour as nonpartisan as possible. But the mission possible of the Greens...there's no compromising. We shut down fossil fuel dependency as rapidly as is physically and humanly possible.

CO: A decade and a half you're talking about.

EM: Well we'll be rapidly reducing the amount. We're scaling back rapidly. If you're shutting down the oil sands in a 10 year timeframe that's rapid. I'm sorry no one's going to say -- and I don't think that I've not even heard of anyone in the environmental movement saying you turn the key tomorrow you turn it off. We are doing everything possible in a plan that goes to 60 percent reductions -- twice the current target of the Liberals, and close to twice the current target of the NDP. And eliminating fracking, banning fracking, shutting down any new pipeline, canceling the Trans Mountain pipeline. I haven't heard anyone think seriously that our plan lacks ambition. It's hard work to see how we're going to plant enough trees, plant enough local gardens, put an energy efficiency to every building in this country. We will be creating millions of jobs by the way. It's not just fossil fuel workers -- they have good skills that are transferable. We're going to have to look at the hundred thousand abandoned oil wells in Alberta that right now represent a toxic legacy -- about 10 percent of them can be converted to geothermal electricity production. We're looking at a very concrete serious plan that takes the line on how many fossil fuels we're using and slashes it quite rapidly. So there's not an ounce of hypocrisy in anything I've ever said on climate crisis. I can't imagine that anyone who looks at our plan could think otherwise.

CO: We have Elizabeth May in the studio here at As it Happens talking about her campaign. I want to ask you about Quebec and your candidate Pierre Nantel -- he has declared himself a proud Quebec sovereigntist. And are you comfortable with that?

EM: Yes. I've known Pierre for a long time because he's been serving in the federal parliament of this country for eight years as a New Democrat. And as he says he hasn't ever thought it was appropriate as a federal Member of parliament to do anything active about separatism. He holds a view of sovereignty for Quebec. Many many Quebecers do. Many other existing members of parliament do -- in other parties. But the key question for me when talking to Pierre about joining us and he is motivated by the climate crisis that's why he's joined the Green Party. That's why he's a Green Party candidate for re-election in Longueuil--Saint-Hubert. And I said well the only question I have about anyone from Quebec who has ever flirted with separatism is, do you think it's on your agenda now? I don't want anyone in the Green Party caucus -- federally -- who doesn't understand that we have to hold Canada together. And a united Canada is necessary to deliver on climate action. And that's where Pierre stands now.

CO: Okay but you welcome sovereigntist -- that is what he says. Is that true?

EM: Well I'd rather have them join the Green Party so that they are not working to separate and help work on climate change. We are a party that's very committed to Canada. My number one priority is always to see this country more unified, more robust, more resilient, and with a deep sense of social justice. We are like a family and we have to take care of each other.

CO: But is that -- the Toronto Star is quoting that national unity is, quote, "not one of your party's core values" -- is that true?

EM: What a statement put out in error and retracted immediately. That is absurd.

CO: So it is one of your core values -- united Canada?

EM: Of course.

CO: We are sure that racism -- well it is already playing a role in this election campaign. And Jagmeet Singh -- leader of the NDP -- has been meeting that head on. There's been some ugly moments for him. There's no question the Green Party is benefiting from a reduction of support for the NDP in many parts of this country. Are you comfortable with the idea that the Greens may benefit from racism?

EM: I celebrate the fact that this country at long last has a visible minority leader of a major political party. I've been -- obviously I'm the only woman leader of a federal political party and I've definitely faced the discrimination that comes from being the only woman leader of a federal political party. I've been a supportive -- well more supportive of the NDP and Jagmeet Singh without any reciprocation. I didn't ask for anything reciprocal. Jagmeet Singh is the member of parliament for his riding probably because of Green not running a candidate. And a leader's courtesy agreement is not saying the NDP has ever offered any other party. We offered it to the NDP. I don't think the decline in support for the NDP is about racism. There are other issues at play. Many of them.

CO: Well we were told by a former NDP executive in New Brunswick who has joined the Greens. That was the case -- that the NDP was losing support because of racism. Mr. Richardson told us...

EM: I went through the transcript again before coming on air because I haven't ever met Mr. Richardson nor have I ever spoken with him. What he seemed to be saying was that there was some level of discomfort and he thought it would have been rectified if Mr. Singh had ever come to New Brunswick. If you want to meet people, build your support on the ground you have to visit. And I've gone to every province in this country in the last seven months. During the time that Jagmeet has leader of the NDP I've been to New Brunswick three times and as a sitting parliamentarian I really have a very heavy schedule making sure I do the work for my constituents. So I don't understand his strategies -- they are his strategies and his alone. But there are multiple reasons. People in British Columbia are furious with the New Democrats over the betrayal on site C.

CO: But are you comfortable with the possibility that the Green Party will benefit from that racism?

EM: I reject the premise. I would be very uncomfortable with us benefiting ever from racism. But the NDP is suffering from a large number of issues -- Jagmeet Singh can't answer a straight question on whether he supports the LNG Canada development that will drive up greenhouse gases and blow through our carbon budget. There are a lot of things Mr. Singh doesn't have an easy time answering and that contributes. I'd say that's the main reason for their decline. But you know I sympathize with him. I hope they're going to hang on to -- I've got a lot of NDP friends in Parliament. I like working across party lines and I don't take any joy in another party that shares a lot of our values doing poorly.

CO: It's been very good to have you in the studio with me Elizabeth May. And I hope we will be speaking again during this campaign.

EM: I hope so too. Thanks so much.

CO: Thank you.

AH: Elizabeth May is the leader of the Green Party of Canada. She was in our Toronto studio. As It Happens has invited the Liberal, Conservative, and NDP leaders to join us later in the campaign. And to follow all the big campaign stories go to cbc.ca/news. Download the CBC News app. And you can find our election coverage on the CBC Listen app -- plus all the great stuff as well.

[Music]

India compound

Guest: Zeba Siddiqui

AH: The photos are striking: a 10-foot high boundary wall painted terracotta red encircles the camp and eventually barbed wire will sit atop that wall. The early stages of buildings designed to hold some 3000 detainees lie within. The images were taken in India's Assam region where journalists and human rights watchers are getting their first glimpse of a detention camp that India's government says will house so-called illegal immigrants. And they come just days after the release of a citizenship list that excluded the names of some 1.9-million people living in that region. Zeba Siddiqui is a Reuters journalist who's been covering the construction of the camp. She's spoken with some of the laborers doing the building -- some of whom fear they may end up inside. We reached Ms. Siddiqui at the New Delhi airport.

CO: Zeba first of all just tell us who exactly might be detained in this camp that the government is building?

ZEBA SIDDIQUI: So it's unclear who might end up at this detention camp that India is building. There are about 1200 people ruled to be illegal immigrants by tribunals in Assam who are currently at a detention facilities built inside -- jails in Assam. So one government official told us that those people will be moved to the detention camp. But there is a lot of fear about whether you know the nearly 1.2-million people who've been taken off the citizenship list in Assam are also going to end up in these detention centers.

CO: How did they identify -- how did the Indian government and the government of Assam identify these 1.9-million people in the state that now says are illegal?

ZS: So what they did is -- this is a Supreme Court ordered exercise. In Assam there's been a movement against illegal immigrants for a long time -- for decades actually. And the Supreme Court of India in 2015 ordered for this exercise to be started. What the government has asked is for all the people who live in Assam to submit documents proving that they or their ancestors lived in India before March 24th 1971 which was the eve of the Bangladesh Liberation War from Pakistan. So that was when Bangladesh was created. They have had to submit documents like birth certificates, and property data, and you know school certificates, voter lists data to show that they are Indian citizens which is a complicated exercise in India especially in a place like Assam which is very poor -- one of India's poorest states. And many people there don't even have birth certificates and there are errors in the names. So it's difficult to establish consistency across the documents.

CO: I read a number of reports of people who are waiting to find out if they made the list of being considered citizens and the shock of finding that their names are not on the list, that they're not considered to be citizens even though they have never lived anywhere else. So what kinds of stories are you hearing from people you speak with?

ZS: Yeah absolutely. I mean they have been army officials who found themselves not on the list. So there's all kinds of people. You know the stories that I've been hearing as well have been people have been really tense about the whole process. Local activists have you know compiled numbers of suicides that they see are connected to this process because you know losing citizenship is a huge deal. Assam as I said is also one of India's poorest states. These people in many cases don't even have the means to travel, to appeal. You know there was a draft list that came out and the people who were not in the draft list had an option to appeal. But people in many cases -- I met people who told me that they didn't even have the money to travel to you know these government centers for the hearings. And then to find out that they're not on the list you know given that there's no clarity about what's going to happen with them whether they will be deported to Bangladesh whether they will be sent to a detention center or a jail, it makes them very anxious.

CO: Some are comparing it to what's going on in Kashmir where the mostly Muslim population of that state Kashmir and Jammu have lost their rights and the status they had within that state of India. So is it a fair comparison to say what's happening in Kashmir is similar to what's happening in Assam?

ZS: I think that both of these are very different things. In Kashmir what's happened is that the special constitutional status of the Jammu and Kashmir state has been revoked. And yes that's led to some of the special rights that people had you know people losing those rights. But what's happening in Assam is completely different because these people are you know at the risk of becoming stateless. And it's 1.9-million people going through you know a really complex legal process that puts the burden of proving citizenship on the people themselves. But I mean in the case of Assam as well you know the government has repeatedly said -- Assam officials in Assam have said that they would be looking at providing refugee status to the Hindus who are not on the list. So they have repeatedly expressed their intent to sort of keep the Hindus excluded from the list in India but they haven't made no such assurances to the Muslims.

CO: When might they start putting people in this detention center?

ZS: So the target date of completion according to the workers and the contractors that we spoke to who were working at the camp, they want to complete it by December. We don't know if that's going to happen but their target is to finish by December. Now what happens after that, we'll have to wait and see because the officials haven't really commented on that. So there's very little clarity on when people might actually start you know being taken to the camp.

CO: I understand you've spoken with people who are workers there -- working in the construction -- who fear that they may end up being held, being detained, in this compound that they're helping to build.

ZS: Right. So I spoke to workers there including a few women who told me that they were not on the citizenship list that had come out. Again, very poor women who belong to Indigenous tribes and they were forced to work there in a sense because they needed the money -- they are earning as little as four dollars a day. And that itself is you know important money for them because they don't have you know many other ways to earn money. Many of them in surrounding villages are daily wage laborers. So they're forced to work at this camp. They were sort of joking about how they might end up there. But again you know at the end of it when you talk to them a little bit more they talked about how tense they were about the whole process and that they didn't know what was going to happen with them but that they had to continue to work there to earn a living.

CO: All right Zeba we will leave it there. I appreciate that you would bring us up to date on this story. Thank you.

ZS: Thank you so much. Thanks.

AH: Zeba Siddiqui is a Reuters journalist based in India. We reached her today in New Delhi. And you can see those photos of the compound in India's Assam region on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 3: Neonicotinoid study

Neonicotinoid study

Guest: Christy Morrissey

AH: For years, research has suggested that neonicotinoid insecticides can be bad news for bees. The pesticides also called neonics are often used to coat seeds like canola and soybeans and can be harmful to pollinators. But it seems misery loves company. According to new research in the journal Science, it's not just bees at risk. Neonics may also make a migratory songbirds sick too. Christy Morrissey is an eco-toxicologist at the University of Saskatchewan and the senior author of the paper. We reached her in Saskatoon.

CO: Professor Morrissey what effect are these insecticides having on songbirds?

CHRISTY MORRISSEY: These chemicals cause a fairly strong effect on the bird's appetite and they rapidly lose weight. So up to 6 percent of their body weight in just 6 hours and all of this weight loss was fat which is something they really need for their journey to the breeding grounds further north.

CO: And so how are you able to monitor them and to see the effect that the insecticides had on the birds?

CM: We only held the birds very briefly and then we used a QMR or sort of a miniaturized MRI machine to look at their body composition before and after giving them the chemical -- or if they were in the control group they were just given vegetable oil. And then we held them for six hours and released them wearing a lightweight nano tags so these are tiny little radio transmitters that we can glued to their backs and this allows us to track what happens to them.

CO: And how did those two groups compare?

CM: We had birds in the control group that on average they left within half a day of release. So fairly rapidly they were continuing on their migratory journey. But the birds in the low group left a few days later and the birds in the high groups significantly delayed their migration. They left three and a half days later than the controls. So this effect of leaving those few days later was from eating just a tiny tiny amount of the chemicals so the equivalent to them eating just maybe a tenth of a corn seed that was treated with a imidacloprid -- or three or four canola seeds that might be treated with a imidacloprid. So these are really small doses.

CO: Why would it matter that they are delayed by just a few days?

CM: Well it's critical for their migratory journey to put on this fat really fast and get onto the breeding grounds. Essentially the early bird gets the worm. When they get to their breeding grounds early they have a higher probability of finding mates, getting nests, and being successful in reproducing. So anything that delays their migration and their arrival on the breeding grounds is very likely to affect their chance of reproducing as well as their own survival because now they're also potentially going to interact with predators or storms or other things that could further delay them.

CO: We have on this show -- we have done a number of interviews about the effects of neonicotinoid -- these kinds of insecticides on bees and pollinators. It is showing -- well the argument is is that they're having a serious effect on the pollinators. Is this the first time you've been able to identify that migratory birds and songbirds are affected as well?

CM: Yeah you're absolutely right that the majority of the research that's out there is on beneficial insects which include those pollinators, the bees, more recently aquatic insects. And that's really what's driving a lot of the regulatory decisions to ban or remove these chemicals or re-evaluate them for their environmental safety. And birds have essentially been well frankly ignored in most of those risk assessments and there's more and more research showing that birds are in fact eating treated seeds that are spilled or just not drilled in the soil surface. You know so they're not buried very well.

CO: The issue of course is for farmers who use these pesticides to protect them against predators like flee beatles and others. And they say that's an inexpensive -- insecticide -- and they used others that are not as effective they might have to actually put more volumes on the crops and have the same effect perhaps on other wildlife. So what are farmers supposed to do about this?

CM: Yeah I mean you raised a really good point. You know farmers are making the best of a bad job, right? And they have a set of tools and they have an unpredictable environment with pests and weather that are really huge challenges to growing a crop every year. And I guess the main issue is that we have set up our farming systems, our agricultural systems, in this industrial model which is really large scale, single monoculture crops that are heavily reliant on these pesticides. In fact seed treatments themselves are not really tied to the pest problem really. They are put in on the seed before the crop goes in the ground. So this type of agriculture that's using seed treatments is just in case there's a pest problem. And so that means every single seed that goes in the ground actually has this chemical cocktail on it. So importantly we have to move away from these dangerous chemicals and look for solutions that are much more integrative and using diverse crops and trying to sort of trick or fool the pests rather than creating these big monoculture buffets.

CO: Well in the meantime what are they supposed to do? Because the Canadian Canola Growers Association says that they can lose an entire canola crop in just a number of days -- they can get wiped out with pests. If there are alternatives -- other ways of doing it -- are they available at this point to Canadian farmers?

CM: For sure. There are many growers that are experimenting with new ways of growing crops as inter-crops for example so they grow two or more crops together at the same time. This confuses the pests, prevents the pest from taking hold. In fact many of these inter-crops actually have higher yields overall compared to growing them separately including canola for example grown with peas. So by making this system more diversified they actually can maximize the beneficial insects too that are out there killing off the pest species and also attract birds that can protect their crops. So the system becomes more resilient without reliance on these chemical inputs.

CO: All right very interesting study Professor Morrissey. Thank you for speaking with us.

CM: Thank you very much.

AH: Christy Morrissey is an eco-toxicologist at the University of Saskatchewan and the senior author of a new study in the journal Science. She's in Saskatoon.

[Music]

Shoe Size

AH: You may have seen the story on the CBC website earlier this week: Sudbury, Ontario's Jessica Gray was searching for her shoe twin. Ms. Gray has spina bifida -- and one of her feet is significantly larger than the other. That makes shopping for footwear complicated. So she put out a call to see if she could find someone who takes the same sizes as her but on the opposite feet. It didn't take very long before that someone responded. This morning on the Calgary Eyeopener Jessica Gray was joined by Genene Maynard. Here are the two women speaking to host Doug Dirks.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG DIRKS: So Genene what sizes are your feet?

GENENE MAYNARD: My left foot is a size 9 and my right foot is a size 7.

DOUG DIRKS: And Jessica what sizes are your feet?

JESSICA GRAY: Oh that was music to my ears. [Laughter] My right foot is a size 9 and my left foot is a size -- well technically it's a size 6-and-a-half but I wear a size 7 on it.

DOUG DIRKS: So you're a perfect match?

BOTH: Yeah.

JESSICA GRAY: I can't even believe this right now.

DOUG DIRKS: [Laughs] This actually the first time that both of you have met -- I mean obviously via long distance. So what would you like to say to Genene, Jessica?

JESSICA GRAY: First of all hello and thank you. I'm so excited to be able to finally talk to someone with not only the same issue as me but the exact same issue as me -- like the size 7 and a size 9. And maybe we can do some online shopping together soon.

DOUG DIRKS: Genene how is it that your feet are two sizes different?

GENENE MAYNARD: I was born with cerebral palsy. So I believe my right foot stopped growing in about Grade 6.

DOUG DIRKS: And so you've had to buy two pairs of shoes so what did you do with those extra shoes? You must have had a bunch of extra odd paired shoes.

JESSICA GRAY: Oh I got three bags in my closet. They're just waiting for Genene. Waiting for her for years.

GENENE MAYNARD: I actually just recently recycled mine which is so sad because I've been holding onto them for like two years so that's okay...I'll buy more.

JESSICA GRAY: We will be doing so much shopping girl. I am so excited.

DOUG DIRKS: But I'm a little concerned because now that you've match and you've met your foot match -- what about your style sensibility? So Jessica how do you lean when it comes to a shoe style?

JESSICA GRAY: I have a very diverse style. Currently I have a pair of Birkenstock Sandals pretty basic just black that are waiting to go to Genene. I have some like different running shoes but I often will find like the trendier things that are teens and just buy like a cheaper pair to keep my trends up to date, if you know what I mean.

DOUG DIRKS: And Genene what's your style when it comes to footwear?

GENENE MAYNARD: Similar. So I'm a mom so Birkenstock Sandals and a lot of running shoes. So mostly Nikes.

JESSICA GRAY: I definitely have been told that I have mom style. [Laughter]

AH: So that was Sudbury's Jessica Gray and Calgary's Genene Maynard speaking with the CBC this morning.

[Music]

Bonavista AirBNB

Guest: John Norman

AH: For travellers, a stay at an Airbnb can seem like a great deal. But conventional hotel and B&B operators say that the reasons for that are fundamentally unfair. Now one Newfoundland municipality is experimenting with a novel approach to leveling the playing field. Bonavista is currently welcoming tourists to its art festival, the Bonavista Biennale. And it's taxing the Airbnb hosts who are housing many of those tourists based on their property values. We reached Mayor John Norman in Buena Vista.

CO: Mayor Norman what made you decide to go after Airbnb operators in Bonavista?

JOHN NORMAN: Well we live in a very popular tourist community and we had concerns oh for the lack of revenue of course coming from those operators and we were receiving more and more calls and visits to the town hall by registered accommodation owners.

CO: And so the complaints you're getting us from people running Bed and Breakfasts, hotel operators. They'd said that there wasn't a level playing field when it came to Airbnbs and how they were regulated.

JN: Yes. And it's not simply the money. I think that's a bit of a misconception. Some people pounce when they talk about fees and taxes or so on. It also has quite a bit to do with required inspections. If one is operating an Airbnb that's unregistered at least in our neck of the woods you don't have to go through any of those regulations and that alone is what makes it a whole lot easier to launch and operate your business. But from the town's perspective it also created concerns because we have a lot of heritage buildings and if they're in no way inspected by our hosting guests it raises various concerns.

CO: Now in terms of taxes and fees what will be Airbnb operators be subjected to now that they weren't before?

JN: A regular business tax as well as the other associated regular business fees at the municipal level. Those that are registered would have already been paying those and they're just advertising on the platform of Airbnb because it's popular. Those that are effective now are those that are unregistered and they are monitored actually weekly. We have the luxury of not being an incredibly large municipality. So we have someone in our town hall that checks every week so to see any updated listings that are new on Airbnb and that are not registered. They are then passed on to management and they are taxed accordingly.

CO: Wow. And so how have the Airbnb operators been responding to this?

JN: Well I don't think anybody wants to pay extra fees or extra taxes or so on. But really it's just simply the normal fees and taxes that any other operator accommodator or would pay in the area. And I know some have raised the idea of you know short term home rentals -- maybe they rent them only a couple days a year, a couple of weeks a year, that may be the case in some municipalities. We are off the beaten track, an hour and a half off the TransCanada Highway at the end of a peninsula jutting out into the ocean. No one is accidentally coming through the town of Bona Vista. They come here with purpose. They come and book a trip and therefore generally our Airbnb operators like all our accommodators are operating for many months of the year in a very busy tourist area.

CO: Now I understand there's been some resistance to paying the tax and you've had to go to some creative ways to get them to pay the bills. Is that right?

JN: Yes. And that's not a unique thing for Bona Vista when it comes to both commercial tax payers as well as private residential taxpayers. Bona Vista has in the past and still does cut services: water service, sewer service, and so on -- for those that don't pay tax. Generally, annually it only takes a couple of issues to set an example and a tone for that tax year -- that season -- and the problems are generally solved. But we haven't shied away from digging up a driveway to cut off a waterline.

CO: Okay. So then suddenly the tax gets paid.

JN: Usually. Yes.

CO: The company Airbnb says it's not aware of any other Canadian municipality that's taxing hosts based on the value of their properties and they also say they work with the Canadian Revenue Agency to remind hosts to pay taxes on income earned to the site. So they claim that the operators are already paying their taxes. What do you say to that?

JN: Well I would be curious if one were to tally the Airbnbs in a province say P.E.I or Nova Scotia or Newfoundland -- a smaller province that would be easier to manage and then get the data from Revenue Canada and see how many of that tally are paying. That would be a curious study. But besides that even if Airbnb operators in some cases are paying those taxes, they're still not paying the municipal tax. And I think municipalities big and small are cash grabbed. We can't be having businesses, commercial operations going on within our municipalities and only some of them paying the municipal taxes.

CO: And now I just wonder if you know of other municipalities that might be watching Bona Vista closely to see maybe they could learn from your experience especially if they can see that it might be a revenue stream.

JN: We have had recent meetings in our province of Newfoundland and Labrador because all the municipalities were facing similar issues. Some were already going about some type of structure to tax them. I guess they haven't made that public yet. But I'd be surprised if we were the only municipality in Canada. I'm sure as this story seems to grow, other municipalities will come out of the woodwork. And I know speaking to our own tourism associations they have raised this issue a number of times and they've also brought forward case studies of what is being rolled out in Toronto and Vancouver and a number of other municipalities big and small across Canada.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. Mayor Norman thank you.

JN: Thank you for your time.

AH: John Norman is the mayor of Bonavista, Newfoundland. The municipality is taxing its Airbnb operators based on their property values.

[Music]

Port Alberni racism

Guest: Sarah Higginson

AH: The class was called Social Justice. And it led Sarah Higginson out of the classroom, out of the school, and into an encounter with some of the darker moments of their community's past. Ms. Higginson is now starting out at University of Victoria. But in her final year at Port Alberni's Alberni District Secondary School she and a couple of her classmates managed to lift a racist restriction that had prevented some people from entering a local home. We reached Sarah Higginson in Victoria, British Columbia.

CO: Sarah how did you find out about this racist restriction on this house?

SARAH HIGGINSON: Justin who was one of the partners working on this project -- his acting coach for many years, her mom had bought the house. And so Justin and Katie Sarah and I -- we were all in the class and when we found out that it was her mom's house so we were all super excited. We just wanted to jump on board and help with that.

CO: And what had you heard about the house? What was the restriction you'd heard about?

SH: So the restriction was basically that anyone of oriental descent couldn't enter the house unless as domestic servants and there could be no immoral acts in the house.

CO: It actually said Orientals -- the language that was on the covenant?

SH: Yes unfortunately.

CO: Who got that covenant put on that house?

SH: So the covenant was put on by Alan Webster Neill who was a member of parliament for quite a long time for the Comox-Alberni. There's actually a school named after him in Port Alberni but because he started initiatives with old age pension and Remembrance Day so he did do some good things but recently it has been brought to light that he was very openly racist and he was back then what they call the Indian agent and just very against Japanese immigration to Canada. And so it was just all very unfortunate.

CO: And he made statements -- he was known to have made statements in the House of Commons as the MP for the area -- anti-Japanese statements about Japanese people taking over British Columbia and he was in favor of Japanese internment camps leading up to the war, is that right?

SH: Yes that's true.

CO: Your research -- this investigation was part of being in Ms. Ostwald's Grade 12 Social Justice class. What was the reaction in the class when you took all this back to them?

SH: I think everyone was super shocked when the project first came about but I think a lot of it was behind the scenes work Justin, Katie, and I trying to find the land title office and trying to figure out how to get it removed. So yes the initial reaction was very shocked but yeah everyone else was all kind of working on their own projects too.

CO: But how could there still be this -- I mean he put this on apparently after he built the house in the early 1900s. How could there still be this racist covenant on this house --any piece of property -- in 2019?

SH: I know that was part of our concern actually. So the lady who bought the house was just in shock that it was still on the house and it still came with the house. So in 1978 there was the land title act that said that any discriminatory covenants were void as long as it's brought to the attention of the land title office. So it was a little bit of a shock that nobody had brought that to their attention in the past.

CO: Why did it matter to you?

SH: I actually went on a trip to Japan in November and so just seeing their culture and getting to know the people of that country it just...it hurts me to think that anyone should be discriminated against to even enter a home. Like a home is where you feel safe. And these people -- imagine they had been an Asian person who wanted to buy this house and they find this covenant on it. I mean it is void but it would still break my heart if they got to this home and then it just didn't feel like a home anymore because it had restrictions on it that were against them.

CO: That they couldn't be in that house unless they were servants. You mentioned that Alan Webster Neill -- he was a member of parliament for the area for more than 20 years until he retired. But there's a street named after him, a school named after him. Are you pursuing those aspects of his fame?

SH: That was a plan to be part of our project in our class. But unfortunately we ran out of time but there are some initiatives to change it. I don't know if it is first priority on Port Alberni's city council anymore but it would be nice to kind of not have that reminder all the time. One of my ideas was to maybe have like a memorial for the good things he did do but our school board does have a rule now that any new school in the area can't be named after a person in the case that something like this does happen and bad things are brought to light. So it would be nice to have the name change but I just don't know if that is in the future or not.

CO: Well it sounds like a job from his Ms. Ostwald's Grade 12 Social Justice class.

SH: Yes. For sure.

CO: Sarah thank you so much.

SH: Yeah. Thank you.

AH: Sarah Higginson is a student at the University of Victoria and a graduate of Anne Ostwald's Social Justice class at Alberni District Secondary School. We reached Sarah Higginson in Victoria.

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