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The AIH Transcript for February 10, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Visit revisited. After hearing our interview with a Quebec woman turned back from the U.S. border, a Vermont city clerk refuses to accept that she's been rejected. And personally invites the woman to cross the border for lunch.

JD: A re-open door policy. Less than a year after adopting the so-called “Dub's scheme” to welcome unaccompanied child refugees, the U.K. shuts it down. And Lord Dubs himself wants that reversal reversed.

HM: The brawl’s in his court. Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson says he's two-and-oh against Donald Trump and he's confident U.S. courts will defeat the President's travel ban again.

JD: It's not so much that there was hell to pay, but it was hell to get paid. A university student’s co-op's stint with Health Canada was a great opportunity to experience the horrors of the wildly unreliable Phoenix payroll system.

HM: Morgan transplant. It seems like a tremendous coup for filmmakers from his Uzbekistan to get Morgan Freeman to appear in their movie. But it turns out they only just made him appear on the movie poster.

JD: And when you get down are you getting everyone else down? Science suggests we should dance like everyone's watching. And offers some tips on how to adjust star gyrations for maximum impact. As It Happens the Friday edition, radio that pays close attention to what's shaking.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Vermont border official, Washington State Attorney General, dance moves study

Vermont border official

Guest: John Odum

JD: According to U.S. border officials, she is not welcome in the United States. But after hearing our story about Fadwa Alaoui being turned away from a Vermont border crossing, one local official says he begs to differ. On Wednesday, MS Aloui told us that officials took her phone, they fingerprinted her and asked her about being Muslim. Then they barred her from entering the U.S. Here's a clip from that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

FADWA ALOUI: I am shocked too, I cannot understand why they react to me like that. I'm nervous because I don't want to go to adventure with my family. We spend all our vacation there. We spend great time there. We love going there. My kids love going there. I have my family have a great time there. I raise my kids aren't the same. You are Canadian. Yes we have a different name, but we are all the same.

JD: Ok that is a clip from our conversation with Canadian citizen Fadwa Alaoui, who was turned away from the U.S. border. After we aired that interview, we received a letter from a John Odom. Mr. Odum is the city clerk of Montpelier, Vermont. He wrote to extend a personal invitation to Ms. Alaoui to visit his town. We reached John Odom in Montpelier.

HM: John Odom, what offer are you making to Fadwa Alaoui?

JOHN ODUM: Well, I just wanted to encourage her to try again. And I wanted to offer to you know invite her down here to the capital of Vermont — down to Montpelier — and I'd be happy to show her and her family around the downtown here such as it is. We've got a lot of great shops. It's not quite the shopping that she might have found in Burlington, but we have a lot to offer and I'll be happy to if she would join my wife and I and we'd be happy to buy lunch for them to try to make up for some of what she's already gone through.

HM: You have even said you're willing to drive to the border to pick her up. How far is that?

JO: Oh it's about an hour's drive. So it's not far. But I'm happy to go up there if for no other reason to make it that much more awkward I suppose for them to turn her away again. It’s not much, but it seemed like all I could do.

HM: How did you feel when you first heard your story?

JO: You know I was I was a combination of furious, embarrassed and depressed. You know the fact that it was it was so close to here. It was it was the border crossing you know that I use when I want to want go up to Montreal. You know Vermont has a reputation — a well-earned reputation — for being more tolerant, more open and more progressive. So it's easy to feel you know a little bit you know distance from you know the policies you know implemented from the executive order from the Trump administration, which you know we think of as affecting more than the larger international airports where you know folks are coming in from the countries on the banned list. It's easy for that to feel at a distance and to have this happen right here right where we live. It hit home. It's frustrating. It's profoundly embarrassing. That's not who we are.

HM: What things that Ms. Alaoui said got to you?

JO: I mean what didn't? I mean the description that she was you know singled out and asked questions about her religion. Questions about her political views of our current President. Being put in a situation where she that she never should have been in to defend who she is. You know as much a part of who she is as is the fact that she's Muslim is the fact that she's you know Canadian that she's been down here. You know time and time again over the last 20 years, it's just outrageous.

HM: President Trump says his executive order is about protecting citizens like you and your family. Do you think that there is any validity to the idea that people from certain countries or even certain religious backgrounds should be subject to greater scrutiny at the border?

JO: Absolutely not. I mean I'm not even sure how to go into more detail than that. I think it's outrageous on a lot of levels. Obviously you can find extremism across the religious spectrum. You can find extremism in the non-religious spectrum. Extremism is its own problem and no one religion or skin color or you know owns it. And it's outrageous then to make these kind of broad generalizations against you know any class of people.

HM: We spoke with a lawyer or a Canadian lawyer last night from the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, who said that many of the questions Ms. Alaoui faced are legal and the policies aren't even really new. They've existed for many years under previous administrations. What do you think is going on here?

JO: I don't I don't doubt that they're legal that in fact is part of the problem. There are a lot of things that have been legal in a lot of places that aren't necessarily right, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. You know as I say you know she has come down in the past according to the reporting you all did in that conversation you had with her and the other reports I've read. This is the first time she has been turned away. That's not arbitrary. That's not random it's happening now because of the political environment here. Because of the new administration. Because of orders being given to the folks who patrol our borders that are that are unclear and allow for and create some confusion and then maybe encourage some of the… well I should just stop right there and let you all edit my babbling because I'm getting worked up.

HM: Is worked up a bad thing?

JO: [Sound: Laughing] not necessarily. Not necessarily. If it makes me sound a little less coherent maybe it is. But on the other hand, if I weren't worked up I wouldn't have extended the invitation. And I don't pretend to expect that that she you know wants to involve herself in what was clearly an uncomfortable and unpleasant situation any more than she already has. So you know I'm not I have no expectations of a response.

HM: Well let me stop you because we did contact MS Alaoui today. And she has said that she will consider your offer. So if you could speak to her directly what do you say?

JO: Well, I would I would say that's very flattering and humbling that she would even consider my offer. And certainly there's no pressure to come down and visit. But if you do I think you'll find Montpelier to be a delightful place with some wonderful restaurants and I think you'll find the populace of Montpelier and Vermont are happy to host you, happy to have you. And I'd also just express my sincere apologies of what she and her family were put through.

HM: Mr. Odum, thank you for talking with us today. I really appreciate it.

JO: Well thanks for reaching out to me.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

JD; John Odom is the city clerk from Montpelier, Vermont. And that is where we reached him. You can read more about this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Washington State Attorney General

Guest: Bob Ferguson

JD: It is Bob Ferguson two, Donald Trump zero. But their legal battle is far from done. Mr. Ferguson is Washington State’s Attorney General. He has been leading the fight against President Trump's travel ban, which of course blocks people from seven Muslim majority countries from entering the United States. But days after it was imposed, Bob Ferguson convinced the judge in Washington State to temporarily suspend implementation of the ban and yesterday, that suspension was upheld on appeal. President Trump responded last night tweeting in all caps quote, “See you in court. The security of our nation is at stake,” unquote. We reached attorney general Bob Ferguson in Seattle.

HM: Mr. Ferguson, Donald Trump says he will see you in court. What do you say?

BOB FERGUSON: Well, what I say is we have seen him in court twice and we're two for two.

HM: And you're pretty confident that if you proceed further you'll get further?

BF: Well look, I would not have filed this complaint Helen, 10 or 11 days ago. I'm if I wasn’t confident that we would ultimately prevail. I'm confident in our in our case and I'm confident in the really excellent legal team that I have here in the office Attorney General to bring this case before the judges.

HM: Mr. Trump and his supporters are warning that Americans are at risk while you keep his presidential order tied up in court. Why don't you share that worry?

BF: Well, I also share a worry of national security. I'm the father of young twins, my wife and I care deeply about that. But the president has an option. He's signed an unconstitutional order. He can at any moment Helen, tear that up and write one that is lawful and is constitutional. That's up to him. Number two, if he's interested in national security it's worth pointing out that we have put more evidence into the record and the federal government that the executive orders actually unhelpful when it comes to national security. We have a bipartisan group of former Secretary of States the former CIA director under George W. Bush, who wrote declarations and affidavits saying that executive order actually harms American national security interests. So I don't concede any ground on that. But the bottom line is the president does have a choice. He can and should tear up this executive order and frankly start over.

HM: Senator Tom Cotton dismissed yesterday's decision as coming from what he called the most notoriously left wing court in America. You know polls show that he and the President have a lot of supporters when it comes to this ban. Why should that court in states like yours set immigration policy at a national level?

BF: Sure, so folks make comments like that say a bench is political when they don't have a legal argument. Right and what the Senator did not mentioned was there been four federal judges who have looked at our case so far two appointed by Democratic presidents two appointed by Republican presidents, all four have ruled completely in our favor and frankly eviscerated the federal government's case. That's number one. Number two, when it comes to polls look my job is to follow the Constitution and uphold the Constitution. I don't spend one minute of my work day Helen, worrying about what the polls say. My job is to make sure that nobody is above the law and that includes the President of the United States and I certainly intend to hold him accountable to the Constitution.

HM: Legal precedent favors the President's right to deny entry to anyone that he deems unfit to be in the United States. Do you deny that that's the case?

BF: No in fact quite the contrary, we have acknowledged and can see throughout this these proceedings that the President does have broad authority when it comes to immigration policies and setting executive orders. That said it is not unlimited, President Obama experienced that when he signed an executive order a couple of years ago and Republican Attorneys General filed suit against him and had it declared unlawful. So this in some respects is no different than that. So yes he has broad authority, but they are not unlimited. And one really important point for your listeners is what's central to this case is the federal government is asserting something truly frightening. They say that the federal bench cannot review the president's executive order. They cannot look behind executive order at all. When they were asked that question for the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals the federal judge said are you asserting Department justice that the president's actions unreviewable? The answer was yes. The ninth circuit completely rejected that. So there is no precedent for it. So what's at stake in this case goes to very fundamental aspects of our Constitution and who we are as a people.

HM: So if the president and his people were to re draft that executive order as you say they should; they removed that review ability clause and other factors. What would it need to say what would have to be removed for you to not proceed with further legal action?

BF: Sure. So Helen, I can't prejudge that right? We would take a close look at any executive order that the president would put together. But that said I do believe that the current order that he signed with very little thought with very little review. It was frankly a Keystone Kops operation that's not just me speaking. That's Republican members of Congress I mean outside of the closest inner circle of the President there is complete recognition that this thing was not thought out at all and frankly it shows in the document itself. And that's why they keep losing over and over in the courts. So I won't prejudge what the President might do with the new executive order. We would obviously look at it, but I hope he takes that course of action. I think it's the right thing for national security and it's the right thing for our Constitution.

HM: President Trump drew a lot of criticism for his response to the initial decision by referring to the so-called Judge. I'm just wondering what impact do you think language like that may have on this case as it goes forward?

BF: That's hard to say Helen. I don't think that federal judges frankly spend much time reviewing the President's tweets. So I don't think that's going to have — as distasteful as those comments are — I don't think that's going to have an impact on the judges as they make their determinations. They are focused, as am I, on the law and on the Constitution. And frankly anyone who listened to the oral argument and we had hundreds of thousands of people listening to an oral argument in the ninth circuit Court of Appeals when it was aired live. Folks are very interested in this case the legality of the Constitution these are fundamental issues to the rule of law in the United States. And so I think that's where the lawyers and the judges are focused.

HM: It does appear that the judges on this appeals court did pay attention to some of the President's statements on the campaign trail about banning Muslims, so it's not like they're ignoring some of the things he has set out as potential policy.

BF: Well, that's a different category of statements altogether. Those statements go in our view, to what was the motivating factor behind issuing the executive order and we actually put those statements in the record. In other words the President's repeated statements about wanting a Muslim ban. Rudy Giuliani being quoted just a few weeks ago saying the President asked him to put together a commission to create a Muslim ban, but hey make it look make it legal. Was the line that he used right? Those are part of the record. Those statements are fair game. His overall criticisms of the federal bench however I don't think are particularly at this stage are going to be politically compatible on the federal judges.

HM: Mr. Ferguson, thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

BF: Thanks so much Helen, really appreciate it.

HM: OK, we do to. Bye bye.

BF: Bye bye.

JD: Bob Ferguson is Washington state's Attorney General. We reached him in Seattle and President Donald Trump clearly is not giving up the fight. After we spoke to Mr. Ferguson, he held a press conference during a visit from the Japanese Prime Minister. And he was asked his plans in the wake of last night's Court decision. Here is some of what the U.S. President had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Well your question was unrelated to what we're here for today, but I'll answer it. We're going to keep our country safe. We are going to do whatever is necessary to keep our country safe. We had a decision which we think we’ll be very successful with. It shouldn't have taken this much time because safety is a primary reason — one of the reasons I'm standing here today is the security of our country. The voters felt that I would give it the best security. So we'll be doing something very rapidly. Having to do with additional security for our country you'll be seeing that sometime next week. In addition, we will continue to go through the court process. And ultimately I have no doubt that we'll win that particular case.

JD: That was the President of the United States Donald Trump speaking in Washington D.C. earlier today.

[Music: Rock]

Dance move study

Guest: Nick Neave

JD: And now a bit of public service journalism as you head into your weekend. Psychologists have studied the intricacies of human dance and they have pinpointed which moves are hot and which are… not so hot. The study was published yesterday; it focuses on women because a prior study focused on dudes. We reached the University of Northumbria Professor Nick Neave in Newcastle, England for advice.

HM: Professor Neave, I think I might need your help if I'm heading to the dance floor. What can I do to avoid painful stares? Maybe earn some admiration instead.

NICK NEAVE: OK. I mean our research has shown that certainly males and females when they're viewing females dancing. One of the key aspects is the movements of the hips and these movements should be you know quite generous movements of the hips. The second key thing to think about is the ability to keep in time to the basic musical rhythm. The finding of the hips and the keeping to the beat you know we kind of expected to find that. But you know when you think about it if you look at people dancing, if you dance with your arms doing exactly the same thing you'd look very kind of old you look very robotic and kind of stereotyped. So we actually found that there's an optimal degree of asymmetry. That's the difference between the two arms. I mean clearly flinging your arms about wildly again looks pretty bad, but if you're moving your arms independently and differently that seems to show that you're a good dancer.

HM: Now in the interests of fair play, we've spoken about women, but you've also studied male dancers in the past. How do they compare? Are their similarities and what makes people appear to be a good dancer?

NN: We did yes. I mean we looked at guys to start with years ago and the key thing that we found with male dance was that it was all related to the movements of the upper body. So the head, the neck, the shoulders, the chest and to some degree the arms. We then found that those movements were very strongly associated with how strong the male was. So these movements were actually a kind of an honest signal as to the physical quality of the male. And then of course we began to say well OK let's see how things pan out for females. And we didn't expect that female movement would be all about the upper body because you know the literature on other people's research has shown that female hip movements characterize the differences between male and female walks. You know females walk with the hips; males tend to walk with a kind of more shoulder swagger.

HM: So beyond giving us dance advice you have a purpose here in terms of I guess our evolutionary appeal?

NN: Yes indeed. I mean we know across the animal kingdom that males specifically down or move and females evaluate those movements and pay very close attention to how fast males run, you know how quickly they turn, how quickly they dive. These movements are all the signals to the male strength, reaction times, speed of motor processing and all these kind of things. We think the same kind of basic biological information is being given in human dance moves. Course it's a little bit more complex because human dance has got a very strong cultural element to it. So there's often you know very prescribed ways of dance in which you know kind of makes things a little bit more tricky.

HM: Were the things that compared across cultures that you know it didn't matter what culture you are from that there was a similar appeal?

NN: In this study of female dancers we didn't look at cross-cultural aspects in our study of the male dancers. We did get people from Germany, Brazil and the U.K. And what was interesting was there's a lot of agreement if you were a good dancer in Brazil you were a good dancer in Germany and in the UK. And similarly with a bad dancer we need to look at that now with our female dancers.

HM: There are so many factors that might appeal to someone in terms of the appearance of a dancer. How did you narrow it down to the dance moves themselves?

NN: We certainly didn't want people to be rating people on things like facial activeness, body size and shape ethnicity and all those kind of thing. So what we do is we take out volunteers, we put them through our motion capture system, we then turn them into featureless computer generated avatars. So everything about the person is completely controlled for we know then that the viewers are simply looking at the movements.

HM: Now in terms of sexual orientation, were women looking at women men and men as well as looking across genders?

NN: We didn't control for that. I mean certainly in our dance samples all of the dancers were heterosexual. It could well be that certain movements may characterize people with different sexual orientations. We don't know that, that's something to be explored. We do think though that women and men are showing off to the opposite sex to try to attract them. They're also showing off to the same sex to kind of intimidate them and to say look I'm better than you. So there's kind of multiple signals being presented by these dance moves.

HM: We’re such complicated creatures, huh?

NN: We are indeed with you. Gives me a job, which is great.

HM: What music are the participants dancing to?

NN: They were dancing to a very very basic drum beat pattern and again one of the things that we thought might confound the study was if we picked a kind of generic pop song. Some people might hate it, some people might love it. So we took a very very basic 125 beats per minute drum beat track. So that would remove all the possibility of kind of music liking.

HM: Has studying all of this improved your own dance moves?

NN: My guess is not. I'm getting a bit old for dancing, I love dance and my wife and I love dancing. But the knees and the hips are beginning to go now, so I think my dancing days can't be too far away from being over. But I think a key thing to remember here as well is that dancing is a wonderful social event. It's a great way to get with other people, to socialize. It's a basic human thing to get with other people and to have fun. And I think we have to remember that.

HM: Dance like no one's watching maybe?

NN: Absolutely just enjoy yourself, don't worry about science, and don’t worry about what other people might think. Just go and have a damn good time.

HM: That sounds like excellent advice. Professor Neave, thank you very much.

NN:Thank you very much indeed.

HM: Nice to talk to you. Goodbye.

NN: Cheers. Bye bye.

JD: We reached Professor Nick Neave in Newcastle. His study on which moves made for the most quote, “high quality female dance,” was published in the journal Scientific Reports yesterday. of course as Professor Neave says, you don't need the science, you don't have to memorize some study. There's no right way to dance. We can dance if we want to and we can leave your friends behind. Because the thing is Helen, your friends don't dance and if they don't dance, which we have established…

HM: They're friends of mine.

JD: No.

Part 2: Dubs amendment, Phoenix student,

Dubs amendment

Guest: Alf Dubs

JD: The British government has decided to scrap the so-called “Dubs scheme.” Less than a year after was implemented, the “Dubs scheme,” which was named after the British lord Alf Dub's, sought to bring unaccompanied child refugees into the United Kingdom. Lord Dub's was himself a child refugee, brought to Britain from Czechoslovakia during the Second World War as part of the Kindertransport. Now Lord Dubs is fighting to get the government to reinstate the policy. We reached him in London.

HM: Lord Dub's, what do you make of the U.K. government's decision to scrap the “Dub's scheme?”

ALF DUBS: I think it's very disappointing; in fact I'm pretty angry about it. They had no justification for doing that at all. They just announced it; they put a cap on the numbers. They're very small, so far two hundred have come in under that scheme. They put a cap on the numbers and said 150 more and then that's finished. There's nothing in the legislation that permits them to do that. And the other excuses they're giving are very thin indeed.

HM: Well what are the reasons the Home Secretary is offering for ending this scheme?

AD: She said first of all that local authorities can't take anymore. In Britain the position is that when children are here without parents, the best approach is to have them fostered with families that have been specially vetted to be professional foster carers. The governments say local authorities can't take anymore unaccompanied child refugees. I have talked to local authorities and that simply isn't true. Not every local authority will do it, but there are quite a number who are willing to take more child refugees. Second government argument is they say if we take these children it'll just encourage trafficking. Trafficking is vile it's a horrible thing, but the argument is of course that if we show this to some people there is a legal path to safety in their lives the traffickers don't get a chance. If we say there's no legal path to safety then the traffickers say come to us and we will help you. I didn't say all children that were unaccompanied in Europe should come here, but we should take a proportion of them. And at the moment at 350, the proportion is embarrassingly and abysmally low.

HM: Well if you don't buy the arguments the Home Secretary is giving then what do you think is behind the government's decision?

AD: Well of course she could be deluded about our own arguments, but I fear that there's a mood or the government thinks there is a mood an anti-immigrant and anti-refugee mood. But quite honestly even if it is and the BRexit vote showed that there was a lot of resistance to immigration, but I'm pretty certain that the mood in Britain is that child refugees are vulnerable and on humanitarian grounds we should take them in and offer them safety and decent lives. And I think what the government decided to do in the face of British public opinion and in the face of parliamentary opinion as well.

HM: So do you have evidence that the public supports your plan?

AD: I have no hard evidence in a sense. Like I can’t give you statistical surveys, but certainly judging by the responses that the masses of supporting messages I've had. And if the mood of the country weren't supportive I would be deluged with hostile messages and a lot of people will be saying it. I just don't get that sense that that's the way it is.

HM: Have you had any opportunity to appeal directly to Prime Minister May.

AD: No I haven't. I raised it in the House of Commons. I got a private notice question as did a colleague of mine Yvette Cooper in the Lords. And then of course in the Commons it was dealt with the Home Secretary, she had to answer the questions and she had quite a tough time of it. And there was virtually no support for the government's position. Certainly not in in the Lords and I think very little in the Commons. So you know there are indications of where parliamentary opinion is and some Conservitive MPs’ I saw in the paper this evening you know they weren't satisfied with what the government was doing on this. I sense that many people including Conservative politicians in both houses are very unhappy about what the government have done. As is the Archbishop of Canterbury as are many people in the country whose voices are being heard in opposition to what the government has done. That's my feeling for it anyway.

HM: You've visited refugee camps in Greece. What conditions are children living in?

AD: They're pretty dreadful. If you could envisage the ones I saw were on two industrial estates. They are like large warehouses with tents inside them, no heating in some cases and temperatures of minus 10-12 very cold with howling wind going through. It was a very bleak situation, in one of the councils a small school attached and people had taken the wood from the school — that is to say the doors and the desks — because they needed wood for their fires to keep warm at night. Now Greek authorities under enormous pressure, they need more international help and then not getting enough international help.

HM: You've been on this program before to talk about your own experience as a child fleeing the Nazis and to talk about the needs of these children. What do you think might happen to these children now in France, in Greece and Italy if they don't make it to your country where they've been placing their hopes?

AD: Some of them will claim asylum in France, which is a proper thing to do. One or two others I hear tried to make their way back to the channel ports to try and smuggle themselves into this country. As for the ones in Greece and we reckon there are about 2,000 or more unaccompanied child refugees in Greece. They either stay in the camps without any prospect of a future or they have to try and escape and get somewhere else. But it's pretty difficult in Greece because borders in the adjacent countries are all closed. So I fear for many of the unaccompanied children Grace there’s no prospects at all unless countries like Britain and others by the way start adopting a more humanitarian policy.

HM: Well given the numbers you've been telling me. Do you still stand by your plans number of 3,000 children? Is that even enough to bring to the U.K.?

AD: Well, the 3,000 figure was the original amendment and that was much criticised for being too low. On the other hand the 3,000 figure seemed to be Britain's share of what we then estimated were a total of 26,000 unaccompanied refugees in Europe. Actually shortly afterwards, Save the Children, who had done this analysis said they thought there are over 90,000 unaccompanied children and children in Europe, so 3,000 was a poor figure. On the other hand 3,000 is much better than 350. And so we can well criticize the government now because they've really gone way back on what was then under discussion as the right number of child refugees to come to this country.

HM: Lord Dubs, thank you very much for taking us through all of this and taking time to talk to us.

AD: Can I say thank you for your interest and I much appreciate Canada has good policies on refugees and immigration and long may that continue and well done Canada.

HM: We appreciate you speaking with us again. Thank you.

AD: OK. Thanks. Bye bye.

HM: Bye.

JD: Alf Dobbs sits in the British House of Lords. We reached him in London.

[Music: Michicant/ Folk]

Assad interview

JD: Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is dismissing Amnesty International as “fake news.” Earlier this week, Amnesty put out a shocking report about Saydnaya Military Prison. The report said that up to thirteen thousand people have been tortured and executed there by Syrian authorities. The human rights NGO interviewed 84 people for that report, including former detainees and guards at the prison. But in an interview with Michael Isikoff of Yahoo News, President Assad insisted it was not true. Here's part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

BASHAR AL-ASSAD: That report. Like many other reports published by Amnesty International put into question the credibility of Amnesty International. And we never look at it as unbiased. It's always biased and politicized and it's a shame for such an organization to publish a report without a shred of evidence. They say it is based on interviews.

MICHAEL ISIKOFF: Yes.

BAA: What about the document? What about the concrete evidence?

MI: Interviews with four former prison officials and guards, three former Syrian judges, three doctors…

BAA: It means nothing.

MI: It means nothing?

BAA: When you when you need to make a report, you need evidence — concrete evidence. You can make any report; you can pay money to anyone.

MI: I want to read you something from the report: the process of the hangings is authorized by officials at the highest levels of the government. Death sentences are approved by the Grand Mufti of Syria and by either the Minister of Defense or the Chief of Staff of the Army, who are deputized to act on behalf of President Bashar al-Assad.

BAA: First of all what the evidence this?

MI: Is for is it true or not?

BAA: No, no it's not, definitely not true.

MI: How do you know? How do you know what's goes on in that prison? Have you been there?

BAA: No I haven't. I've been in the Presidential Palace, not in the prison.

MI: So here you have a very disturbing report about something going on in one of your prisons. Are you going to investigate?

BAA: So Amnesty International knows more about Syria than me? According to you.

MI: Right.

BAA: No that's not true. No, they haven't been to Syria. Their boards on allegation, they can bring anyone doesn't matter what's the title. You can force anything these days. And we're living in a “fake news” era as you know. Everybody knows this. So we don't have to depend on this. Second, you have to talk about reality. They said in their report that we made serial executions. Is that correct?

MI: Yes, mass hangings.

BAA: First of all, execution is part of the Syrian law. If the Syrian government wants to do it they can make it. Legally it’s been there for decades.

MI: Secret trials no lawyers?

BAA: Why do they need it if they can make it legally? They don't need anything secret.

MI: is that legal in your country?

BAA Of course it’s legal for decades since the independence. The execution according to the law after a trial is a legal action.

JD: Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in an interview released by Yahoo News today. In that same interview, President Assad also said that there are quote, “definitely terrorists among the refugees fleeing his country.” And the only evidence really he offered up to support that claim was quote, “You can find it on the net.”

[Music: Jazz]

Phoenix student

Guest: Greg Owens

JD: Getting a few terms as a co-op student with Health Canada was supposed to be an exciting opportunity for Greg Owens. Instead, he got stuck with money problems. First, he wasn't paid at all for the work he had done. Then he was overpaid and then he was underpaid and then overpaid… you get the point. He is one of tens of thousands of federal employees who has experienced issues through the Phoenix payroll system. And as a fourth year student at Carleton, that is factoring into his future choices. We reached Greg Owens in Ottawa.

HM: Greg Owens, in what ways are the Phoenix pay problems affecting your life right now?

GREG OWENS: Well, it's been affecting me for the last year and a bit. When I was working at Health Canada for the year, you know each new semester that I started working and each new term, I was dealing with a new pay issue each time. You know I needed emergency salary advance on one I was underpaid completely on another. I ended up having to wait months on end just to receive any form of pay. You know it wasn't just me; it was my coworkers as well, my fellow student workers. Now that I've left you know I was hoping that my time with Phoenix was done and I wouldn't be bothered any more. But I've now received a third letter from the Public Service Pay Centre saying that I've been overpaid and that I need to pay them back. And now we're summing up to a total of about 1,300 dollars. Not the nicest of experiences you know. Each month when you think you're finally done with these issues more and more things keep popping up.

HM: You mentioned you were at Health Canada that you were working as a co-op student. How aggressively did you start trying to deal with this situation?

GO: It became a priority and that was really the biggest shame of it was you know I was there to be trained and to learn about these different jobs at Health Canada and you know I ended up spending a lot of my time trying to get a hold of the Pay Centre to figure out my pay. One day I spent basically the full day I documented 265 calls to the Public Service Pay Centre line before I was able to speak to someone.

HM: What were you just getting a busy signal?

GO: A busy tone or I was put on hold. And by about 45 minutes of being on hold you know things come up I have meetings I had to go to. So I'd have to I'd have to hang up and try calling back. But know oftentimes it was a busy signal.

HM: Now you were dealing with long periods of time without pay. You had tuition to pay, you have rent. How do you how do you pay those bills at a time like that?

GO: It came down to really having to go you know one out of pocket and two boring money. So having a line of credit, borrowing from my parents — I'm in a lucky position that I know a lot of people weren't that I was able to borrow from my parents. You know I had to do that. This past fall, I took up a job while doing my full-time studies to kind of help cover those cost of tuition — those living costs. You know it's really things that you don't expect to have to do when you land jobs with the federal government for a year. You don't think that you're going to be struggling to pay bills. So Carlton University was actually really helpful in allowing students who are affected by the Phoenix issues to postpone their paying of their tuition without any financial penalty. So this allowed me a few extra months. It allowed me to take up another job during the fall. Save up some of that money and be able to pay my tuition without having to incur fees. You know beyond even the last year or so with Phoenix it stems into the Public Service Pay Centre being moved you know being centralized and having all of the Public Service being paid from one location. And it it's absurd to think that you know we could roll out this platform and have so many issues and not have a backup plan. Especially when you look at all the precarious workers because those are the people who are affected the most. We're talking student workers, we're talking contract workers. These are people who are living paycheck to paycheck and they're the ones that you know we don't have union representation; we don't have people fighting for us. So we're having to be our own advocates while at the same time trying to maintain some level of decorum as we need references. We need to move forward. We can't be causing a fuss in our in our workplace. So that's really the unfortunate side.

HM: You mentioned this has been around for a long time. Today Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called the Phoenix pay system a big, steaming pile inherited from the previous government. What do you make of that response?

GO: You know I understand the Liberal government's frustration with the situation. And as somebody who has now done a lot of my background research into the Phoenix system trying to figure out OK, where did this go wrong? Or who can I get a hold of to you know send my complaints to? I get that this didn't stem from their government. But at the same time you know just regarding the system as not being their fault does little to help pay student bills. Does little to help pay for you know contract workers bills. But I think we need to actually assess whether or not you know if this pay system is not working. We need to see whether or not we should actually still be hiring students? If students aren’t being paid adequately I know multiple students who have been rehired or hired now we're looking at mid-February here and they haven't received a paycheck and they started work you know at the beginning of January. So that's becoming the norm. We have to look into whether or not we should actually be hiring students?

HM: So what needs to be done at this point for people like you and these other people who have contacted you?

GO: I think for the most part I mean these students need their money. I think first and foremost they need their money. Unions can complain. The Public Service Alliance of Canada doesn't represent student workers at this point in time, but I think they should look into it perhaps becoming representative of contract and student workers or perhaps unionizing of student workers and contract workers should be another option. So there are people there to advocate for these students. So I think showing those workers at that level of respect and putting together some type of emergency fund that will allow for these workers to receive their compensation that they've worked for is absolutely essential.

HM: Now you are almost done with your degree. How does this whole experience with Phoenix affect your own career plans? I mean does it?

GO: I mean for me it's definitely given me a taste of you know how inefficient some bureaucracy can be sometimes. So for me personally, Health Canada was always kind of a dream, especially one of my jobs. I'm a neuroscience student and I was working in drug regulation and I was very interested in it. But after all of these issues and my lack of ability for anybody really within my department, within my bureaus, within the Public Service Pay Centre to help me it steered me away. At this time if the Public Service stays with the Phoenix pay system, I would not return to the federal government.

HM: Greg Owens, thanks for talking to us.

GO: Thank you for having me.

HM: OK. Take care. Bye bye.

GO: Bye.

JD: We reached forth year Carleton University student Greg Owens in Ottawa. Mr. Owens had to take loans and delay paying his tuition after a co-op with Health Canada. Since the Phoenix pay system was put in place, thousands of public servants have been underpaid, not paid, overpaid. At an event in Iqaluit today, Prime Minister Trudeau acknowledged that though most remaining Phoenix problems are minor, there are still big issues to deal with.

[Music: Money/ rock]

Morgan Freeman-less film

JD: When we saw the promotional materials for the action movie “Daydi,” which was made in Uzbekistan we were surprised. I mean we weren't surprised that Mirolim Qilichev was the star. I mean that's obvious, Qilichev is the go to action guy in Uzbekistan. But we were surprised to see the actor in the center of the “Daydi” poster: Morgan Freeman. So we gave him a call to find out how he felt about his experience making the movie.

SOUNDCLIP

MORGAN FREEMAN: I want to thank everybody and anybody who ever had anything at all to do with the making of this picture.

JD: OK. Full disclosure that was actually a clip from Morgan Freeman's Oscar acceptance speech in 2004. We didn't really speak with Mr. Freeman, but in an interview he did comment on how the crew that made “Daydi” traveled to the set every day.

SOUNDCLIP

MF: To get there they will walk day and night — sometimes for a week. It is a long dangerous and seemingly impossible journey. And some of them will not survive it.

JD: OK full disclosure that was Morgan Freeman narrating “March of the Penguins” he wasn't talking about making a movie in Uzbekistasn because Morgan Freeman did not make a movie in Uzbekistan. He is on the poster though right smack dab in the middle of it looking serious in a robe, which might and I stress might, lead you to believe that he appears in the movie the poster is advertising. “Daydi” was supposed to come out today in Uzbekistan. The country's film licensing body is blocking its release. It says the production company is deliberately trying to mislead audiences into thinking that a famous American movie star is in the film in a robe. Well recently, a reporter asked Mr. Freeman whether this deception had hurt his pride.

SOUNDCLIP

MF: It's not a matter of pride; it’s a question of dignity.

JD: OK. Full disclosure that is not actually from an interview that is from the movie “Last Knight's that is the movie in which Morgan Freeman really appeared looking serious in a robe, which is where the makers of the Uzbek movie got the picture they stuck on their poster. So nice try I guess, but false advertising is wrong as the old proverb goes.

SOUNDCLIP

MF: The lone Penguin has no chance against the winter’s cold.

JD: Exactly. Thanks for calling Morgan Freeman. Talk to you soon.

Part 3: New Zealand whales, Windsor flour mill reopens, JUNO cabbie

New Zealand whales

Guest: Cheree Morrison

JD: It is one of the worst whales strandings in New Zealand's history. This morning, 416 pilot whales were found on the remote beach of Farewell Spit on the South Island. Some have died and hundreds of volunteers rushed to save the ones that were still alive. Cheree Morrison is a magazine writer. She was at farewell Spit on Friday morning when she saw the stranded whales. We reached her in Takaka, New Zealand.

HM: Ms. Morrison, how did you discover these whales on this remote beach?

CHEREE MORRISON: Myself and my photographer Jane Ussher were in town for a magazine article that we rushed in. It was at 6:15 that morning to go and photograph what was looking to be an absolutely beautiful sunrise. So we were just traveling down the beach with camera in hand and ready to catch a really beautiful morning. When Teddy sort of stopped the bus and said I think you'll story is about to change. It was so quite dark, the sun was still just coming up and as we got closer we just realised that there was obviously a while stranding. At first we started to count in around 100 as the sun kept coming up, the light just showed us that there was so many more. And yet Teddy was amazing. He was so calm. He knew exactly what to do in terms of protocol for the contact and that's when we discovered that the Department of Conservation were well aware and were on the way. It was a complete accident. We were just there to photograph a sunrise and unfortunately we came across just the most devastating sight I’ve ever seen.

HM: I understand you were aware of the sounds of this?

CM: So it was quite dark. We couldn't see too much. And to be perfectly honest with you, I for the first couple of minutes couldn't get off the bus. I just cried and cried and cried. It was hard to explain, but just actually heartbreaking. And when I got the courage to finally step off the bus, it was being that you could hear the huffing and you know splashing as they tried to move. And you know the occasional squeal or cry and just the most haunting sound that I had ever heard.

HM: Did you join in the rescue effort?

CM: We briefly did. We went away because we knew that the Department were on the way and there was nothing we could do. And we were there for a purpose and a job, so we had to go and do this and we came back after about 45 minutes. It was on the way back that Teddy turned to me and seemed to look at me and he said do you want to know how many there are? And I sort of looked at him and you know got the count of 416 and cried again. But you know when we got back everything was well underway. Project Jonah and the Department of Conservation were incredible. How quickly they organized everything. How many people came from everywhere from holiday homes, from you know just driving in by the bus load. That was incredible to see. Look I mean we were not prepared; I was in jeans, sneakers and a light shirt. Even though it’s summer, the water is very cold. So I rejoined in for 30 minutes or 45 minutes just trying to turn the whales onto the stomachs — just to get them up right. That was most important.

HM: Besides trying to upright the whales. What were the rescue volunteer rescuers doing to try and help them?

CM: We were there for the very early efforts. So I know later on they were covering them with sheets and trying to douse them with water and everything. I know it was an incredible effort you know up until dark last night and I think again this morning. So the Golden Bay community was just incredible. You know it was young and old, tourists, locals, everyone you can think of. Everyone who is capable of getting out there was out there just doing everything they could. You know there was, I saw it on the news last night, a video of a woman singing a song to the whales and it was kind of what you were doing as well. You were trying to help. There was an element of helplessness. We just had to stand there and put your hand on them and try to say you know it’s going to be all right. It’s for yourself more than for the whales. But I guess it’s what human nature is telling you to do, which is to be comforting and do what you can.

HM: Do you ever see yourself helping in one of these volunteer efforts? It sounds so draining?

CM: It's incredibly emotional. And I was so unprepared. You know we were out there just to like I said to get this beautiful sunrise and it was such a beautiful sunrise. It was just read and yellow and pink. Unfortunately it look Jane Ussher, who's the photographer sort of described it as being like Armageddon. You know the red sky and just devastation. But standing on the shore when we got back with the rescue, like I said, we were in jeans and sneakers and knowing we had places we had to be that day. It was like I have to help there’s an instinct in there that says I just have to get in there and help. And so yeah I mean look, I'd never seen a whale until yesterday and I would do it again. It hurts your soul, but at the same time seeing everyone together out doing what they could. While it was breaking your heart, it was a little bit of comfort as well and that everyone just was incredible — incredible community spirit.

HM Ms. Morrison, thank you for talking to us and telling us what you witnessed and experienced there. We appreciate it.

CM: Thank you. I hope it was helpful.

HM: All right. You take care.

CM: Thank you. Bye.

HM: Bye bye.

JD: Cheree Morrison was one of the first people at the scene of the mass whale stranding at farewell Spit. She's a writer with New Zealand Life and Leisure Magazine. We reached her in Takaka, New Zealand, more than 500 whales have been stranded on the beach over the last couple of days. Volunteers are working to refloat as many as they possibly can.

[Music: Electronic]

Native basketball league

JD: The all-Native basketball tournament will be held in Prince Rupert, British Columbia this coming weekend. And like last year, Josiah Wilson will not be participating. We covered Josiah’s story on As It Happens around this time last year. He had received a letter from tournament organizers telling him he was not allowed to participate because he does not have Indigenous bloodlines. Mr. Wilson was born in Haiti, but when he was just a few months old, he was adopted by a family from the Heiltsuk First Nation. Now from our archives, here is Carol in conversation with Josiah Wilson, who goes by “Jos” asking him how important it was to him to participate in the tournament. And later on you're going to hear from his dad, Don Wilson.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSIAH WILSON: It is actually pretty important for me because I started playing with them four years ago in the junior all-Native and I didn't even think I would actually play with them because I have got a random I think was my dad or one of my cousins that let me know about it. And they were like hey; I'd like you to come play with us. And then I started playing with them and I actually enjoyed it a lot. The first couple of years I was actually I was having a lot of fun gowing up and traveling with the boys going up to B.C. to play with them and all that. And it just kind of became like one of my yearly things that I was doing. I was going to up to the all-Native area to play with the boys and I enjoyed it a lot. I got to see the family and like you know just cultural time with all that bonding time with the boys. It meant a lot to me.

CAROL OFF: And did you ever have this experience before where somebody said you weren't… you didn't have the right blood?

JW: No I have not.

CO: I guess the letter says all players must be of North American Indigenous ancestry bloodline, i.e. one eighth First Nations ancestry. Don, what do you make of all that?

DON WILSON: Well, that's exactly what the letter said. I've been trying to shield my son from the impact of this, although I can only do that to a certain extent. Because I think it's a very hurtful and insulting gesture that's been made to exclude him despite the fact that he is a fully registered status Indian and a member of our nation. So what I make of the fact that they have this blood quantum rule is that they're adhering to a very colonialist idea of who we are. I think as Heiltsuk people, we should be able to determine our own identity and who belongs to us.

JD: From our archives, that was Don Wilson and before that his son Josiah or Jos Wilson, speaking with Carol back in February of last year. For the second year in a row, Joe Wilson will not be allowed to participate in the all-Native basketball tournament which begins this Sunday. Don Wilson has launched a human rights complaint against the tournament. In an interview with CBC in British Columbia earlier this week, he said that complaint is set to be heard in early March.

[Music: Instrumental]

Windsor flour mill reopens

Guest: Mike Matthews

JD: For the past year, it seemed like the Arva Flour Mill had shut down for good. There wasn't much activity at the historic building, which has been around for 198 years. In reality, its operations were on pause, just not by choice. We brought you this story last May, when the mill’s owner, Mike Matthews got a surprise visit from federal inspectors. And those inspectors told him that his antique machinery was not safe and they forced him to shut down his operations immediately. And he was left to take care of it all by himself. Ten months later, Mr. Matthews has received some good news. A federal tribunal ruled that the mill can operate again at 100 per cent. We reached Mike Matthews in Arva, Ontario.

HM: Mr. Matthews, what have the past ten months been like for you at the mill?

MIKE MATTHEWS: It's been extremely busy for me.

HM: Have you actually been operating everything by yourself?

MM: Yes. I didn't know it was possible to be honest, but I was able to pull it off. It's just a lot of hours is what it is.

HM: Did it change your capacity your production levels?

MM: No, I was able to keep up and we made it through the busy Christmas rush. It's just lots of hours and not much sleep basically. I'm due for a holiday I think. [Sound: Laughing]

HM: Right. So how are you feeling today after this decision from the federal tribunal?

MM: I'm feeling great. The chair of the tribunal, he did a great job — very thorough investigation. So you know having ruled that it's not a danger is fantastic.

HM: So did they disagree with the federal inspectors from last spring?

MM: Oh yes definitely. Basically they don't consider the equipment to be a danger at all. Because there are moving parts, by the definition of a code they do have to be guarded. So that's something we're going to be working on over the next six months. But right now I can have my employees come back to work.

HM: So when you say they have to be guarded that means you have to install some kind of safety guards?

MM: Yes. Just over the larger flat belts where they enter the pulleys.

HM: Is it likely to be expensive for you?

MM: I don't know. I imagine so. They have to be engineered like you have to get engineered drawings and that doesn't sound cheap to me. So there's going to be some sort of cost involved and it should be pretty difficult to figure out how we can design one that will work for us, be easy to clean around and to work with and satisfy the government's demand as well.

HM: Yes. How old is your equipment again?

MM: 114 years.

HM: So there's not parts stocked anywhere for that?

MM: [Sound: Laughing] no. no. Nothing like that.

HM: Wow. What's it been like for you anticipating this decision? I’m just wondering you know you're working all these hours by yourself not knowing when you might be able to start up full operations with help again?

MM: Terrible. To be honest, it was not good at all. A lot of long hours and then you know sleepless nights. This is my livelihood and I didn't know that the government had the power to take away the right for me to run my own equipment.

HM: They had that they had that right?

MM: Yes. When we won the stay of the direction that was also a minor victory as well. Just to be able to keep the doors open and keep knowing flour until we get a decision like this to give us time to actually build the pieces that are necessary.

HM: At any point did you consider shutting down temporarily until you get your staff back?

MM: We're never liquid like that to be able to have that have that ability to close the doors. It's hard, it's difficult to run a business of this old. We’re 198-years-old this year. So we're competing with some very big competitors when it comes down to it. The support from our customers and just all across Canada has been like the support was unbelievable.

HM: What did you hear?

MM: Before all this happened. I honestly believe that you know not many people really cared about the old mill in Arva. But it turns out that people really stood up and made their voices heard.

HM: Remind us what makes your flour different from the big producers, companies like you know Robinhood?

MM: Well, we put some love in it, but it's truly the old-fashioned way of milling. It's not a gristmill. We are one of the first roller mills ever built in Canada. So the equipment is relatively the same as new equipment. It's just smaller, runs slower and produces less. So it's kind of like small batch brewing or small batch cheese making. The quality level stays high because we don't overheat the product by milling it too quickly. Yeah it's just it's a little different. We feel everything with our fingers. There's no computer screen that tells us that equipment's working the way it's supposed to be. We actually have to listen to it and listen for tone changes. If things get loud or if you're too quiet you know something's going on. You feel the product itself to know that it's grinding it fine enough. There's a lot more effort going into the flour than the modern mills.

HM: Have you been able to hire your staff back?

MM: My one miller that was with us for 30 years, he's taking retirement. He’s 66-years-old. But I was able to hire my new miller back in yes. Like I was able to keep him somewhat busy over the last 10 months you know just cleaning and doing all the jobs he doesn't really like. He really wants to be a miller. So he's very happy to be back at it.

HM: You told us when we spoke with you last time on the program this has been a family affair for four generations. Did you ever wonder what your forefathers made of this whole mess? The bureaucracy you've been dealing with?

MM: Who knows? I don't know if my father would've put up with it. He may have thrown his into the air. As for my grandfather and my great grandfather, I never really got to know them, but bureaucracy is what it is. It's a tough thing to deal with.

HM: Maybe you're just stubborn?

MM: [Sound: Laugh] well, you know a lot of businesses get passed down to the family and when they do there's always a big chance for them to go out of business. I don't want to be that statistic — even if the government tries to do it for me.

HM: Well Mr. Matthews, congratulations on this victory. It's nice of you to talk to us again.

MM: Well thank you for calling.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

MM: Bye bye.

JD: Mike Matthews is the owner and operator of the Arva Flour Mill. We reached him in Arva, Ontario.

[Music: Bluegrass]

JUNO cabbie

Guest: Daniel Nebiat

JD: Earlier this week, Daniel Nebiat stood among some fellow Juno Awards nominees at a red carpet event in Toronto, wishing he had worn a suit. Hours earlier, Mr. Nebiat had been busy with his main gig: driving a cab. It was only when the Eritrean-Canadian musician showed up at the JUNO event that he learned that his band the Okavango African Orchestra, had been nominated. We reached Daniel Nebiat in Toronto.

HM: Daniel Nebiat, what was it like for you to stand there at that ceremony and hear your band get nominated for Juno?

DANIEL: NEBIAT: It felt great. I didn't expect it. So when they announced the band's name I was like oh my God, I'm around these people and I get to get nominated — the band gets nominated.

HM: Did you let out a cheer?

DN: Yeah, a little bit.

HM: Now hours before that, you didn't even have any idea you're going to be at the event. How did you find out?

DN: Yeah, like my every day I just you know I was at work. I kind of start my job like four o'clock in the morning. So I was up by three. I was on the road by four o'clock driving around and a lady from the company said to come there.

So it was just the company that produced your album that called you?

DN: Yes. So when she called me I went there and I said OK. And what I was thinking was you know they'll just call the names of the C.Ds or musicians that were nominated and we go home. I didn't know that it was like a red carpet and had like interviews and pictures and everything. And I was still wearing my every day — my job clothes —my tracksuit and hoodie, so I went there and I was like oh my God this really happened. The next thing I know, she told me was you guys have to go on the red carpet and give interviews. I'm like looking like this? She was like yes. OK. You can just go.

HM: when you're not driving a taxi, you are singing, you're playing an instrument called a krar with your band Okavango African Orchestra. Tell me about balancing those two jobs. Is it difficult?

DN: Yeah it is. But you know my music comes first. So I tried to make time for krar and gigs and stuff. It's a little bit hard sometimes. I have to work harder when I'm you know before I go to my gigs. I have to work harder and I try to make as much money as I can and go to our rehearsals.

HM: So you've been playing the arar for a really long time right. How did you get into it?

DN: I started playing krar when I was really young. It's like a five or six string instrument. It's like basically a small scale harp. And when I started it was on and off because I have to make peace with my mom because she didn’t like me playing like every other parent you know. She was not happy. And when I didn't listen, she took action and she broke it. She broke my first krar. And then I went out to collect some money and bought one again because I didn't know how to make them back then. Now I can make my own krar, back then I didn't know. So I went out and bought one again. I hide it somewhere where she cannot find it. But somehow she find out, she broke it again. She broke about three or four, but after that she stopped.

HM: Why didn't she want you to be a musician?

DN: She wants me to concentrate on my schooling and back then like music was not considered something that you do for a living. So my mom was one of those parents that didn't want me to play.

HM: Your band is kind of almost a pan-African band isn't it? I mean it's people from all over the place?

DN: It is. We have guys from Rwanda, Burundi, Madagascar, Senegal, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Eritrea and Ghana. When I was doing my solo act I just play with people in my community with Eritrean people or Ethiopian people. So like I didn't see how far my music can go, but with these guys you know whenever we play, I hear the things that they play is not that I normally hear it was in my own community. So I'm like wow actually these guys playing something good here.

HM: What do you think this Juno nomination might mean for you and your band mates and your career?

DN: It's a door opener because for me, as far as I know, because some of those guys in the band were nominated and before or won before. But for me and some guys is just our first time, so that's a very good opportunity. It may bring us more gigs you know. Expose us to more producers that are looking for a new thing and they might say OK, you know what? Let's try this guy. So I'm hoping that it will bring more opportunity.

HM: What does your mom think now?

DN: she's happy. I showed her the newspaper; first she didn't know she asked me like why are you in the newspaper? I say good thing you didn't make me stop playing now. You know I'm nominated for a JUNO and I explained to her. She was like oh my God, I’m happy she said because I pray for you. That's why you got this nomination.

HM: Sounds like you had a real “I told you so moment?”

DN: Exactly. So we are going to play a song from the album one that you wrote it's called “Yohanna,” can you tell us about that?

DN: The song “yohanna” is a dedication to my community, my people, my country. Like any other country got its own heroes. The people have their own dignity and culture and personalities. “Yohanna” means kudos — like congratulations kind of thing. So kudos for all the hard work that the people did to rebuild the country from the civil war that we heard from independence to now. Kudos for your strength, kudos for your existence, kudos for rebuilding the country. Kudos for our heroes, kudos for those people that are cleaning the streets. Just kudos — congratulations. You know you made it. You make something happen.

HM: If I may I'll say kudos to you for getting that message out and for your music and this nomination. And it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much.

DN: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

HM: OK. All the best to you. Thank you. Bye bye.

DN: Bye bye.

Daniel Nebiat is an Eritrean-Canadian musician. He's also a Toronto-based cab driver part of a band called the Okavango African Orchestra. They were nominated for a JUNO award in the “World Music Album” category. And this is “Yohanna”.

[Music: Yohanna/ World music]

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February 10, 2017 episode transcript

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