Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The AIH Transcript for January 13, 2016

Hosts: Helen Mann and Angeline Tetteth-Wayoe

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello I'm Helen Mann.

ANGELINE TETTETH-WAYOE: Good evening. I'm Angeline Tetteth-Wayoe. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

ATW: Tonight:

HM: Worst case scenario. She's already been charged in the murders of eight seniors and today, a former Ontario nurse appeared in court to face six new charges including attempted murder and aggravated assault.

ATW: How to go on knowing that you couldn't. Alvin Fiddler, Nishnawbe Nation Grand Chief tells us how a Northern Ontario community is coping after the suicides of two 12-year-old girls.

HM: A force to reckon with itself. The U.S. Justice Department issues its report on the Chicago Police and fines officers are too violent too frequently, and get too little training and discipline.

ATW: A womb with a view and an encore presentation of Carol's interview with Ian McEwen, the Booker Prize winning author explains the challenges of having a fetus for a narrator.

HM: You're not The Boss of me. A Springsteen tribute band is tapped to play an event in Washington on the eve of Donald Trump's inauguration. So fans of the real Springsteen shower the musicians with scorn in the USA.

ATW: And all the President's menace. Yes, they're totally creepy, but you can turn your home office into the Oval Office at an auction in Gettysburg tomorrow. Where wax versions of U.S. presidents from a defunct museum will go up for bidding. As It Happens the Friday edition, radio that knows even the coolest wax presidents can have a serious meltdown.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: New nurse charges, Chicago police report, wax presidents museum auction

New nurse charges

Guest: Arpad Horvath Jr

ATW: The charges against a former Ontario nurse were disturbing enough when they were announced last fall. Elizabeth Wettlaufer from Woodstock was charged in the murders of eight seniors, all of whom had allegedly been patients under her care in two South Western Ontario care centres. But today, there were new charges and six new alleged victims. Arpad Horvath Jr. was in a jam-packed Woodstock courtroom today where Ms. Wettlaufer appeared. Mr. Horvath is the son of our Arpad Horvath Sr. a patient allegedly killed by Miss Wettlaufer in 2014. We reached Arpad Horvath Jr. in Dorchester, Ontario.

HM: Mr. Horvath, why was it important for you to sit in that courtroom today and hear these charges?

ARPAD HORVATH JR: Well, me and my father have a really really tight connection as father and son. Were best friends and I was there for him in the nursing home every day, in the hospital every day and I want to be in court every day. And this whole this whole case the way it went down you know saying goodbye to someone two and a half years ago and then having to go through all of this before. It's my obligation as his son and as his best friend to be there and just to have to ride this out.

HM: Wow did you feel as you watched Elizabeth Wettlaufer make that appearance and face those additional charges?

AH: When she walked in it was just a feeling of rage and anger like I've never felt in my life. And when I heard there was more charges added it just put me over the top. It was just amazing how you hear this many charges and it's bad enough, but then all of a sudden there's more charges coming. It's just it's just an endless plethora of pain.

HM: Can you describe what she was doing in that courtroom I mean how she appeared?

AH: She appeared totally motionless and emotionless. No conviction, no conscience whatsoever, no emotion. We managed to lock eyes for less than a second, but she didn't see me and I looked at her and I just I just got angry as I’d seen her because somebody's doing this to this many people — innocent people — it's just mind blowing.

HM: We have to repeat, of course, that she's only charged at this point she hasn't actually been tried. And so you know she's facing these charges. This is just a first step for you?

AH: Yeah. Yeah it is. Everything is alleged, so you can't really place judgment on them at all. But if she is found guilty of this it’s just a real super heinous crime and for it to get bigger everything is going to probably take longer.

HM: Your father had been living at Meadow Park Long Term Care facility in London, Ontario and police say Elizabeth Wettlaufer had been working there at the time. How would you describe the care your father received at the facility?

AH: Yeah absolutely, I was there every day with my father and I found the care to be excellent. In my opinion, they were very caring with my father. They're very nice to my father and also myself and my kids and my wife when we went to see them. And they're very accommodating and I imagine they gave him a sense of dignity and they really liked my father they really did like my father and they gave him, like I said, the dignity and the respect of a person of that age that he deserved and also my family. So they were very very very nice people.

Do you think he liked living there?

AH: I do actually think he really liked living there. I’d never seen him upset or anything when he was there. I mean you know when you're in a nursing home he had dementia as well. So he had some rough days, but barring that, he seemed very content there. He seemed to be very happy there.

HM: Did you have any interactions that you can recall with Elizabeth Wettlaufer?

AH: Really not a lot of interaction so to speak. But I’d see her from time to time in the hallways here and there. But never seen her in my father's room or anything of that nature during the day anyway.

HM: At what point did you notice your father's physical health beginning to decline?

AH: Was his physical health as far as that when he was in the hospital because he did lose the use of his leg. He couldn't walk anymore, but nursing home he kept basically a pretty even keel. It was almost a year and then he was still the same. He never really changed in my eyes physically or mentally with the dementia. But it was a sudden shock when I when they called me and said he was unresponsive on the Sunday morning.

HM: When he died what did you initially believe the cause of death was?

AH: When he died the initial cause of death that I believed and that they were telling me was basically he had had nine strokes back years ago. And also with dementia combined with everything I believe it was they said it was another from one of the existing strokes and something just went wrong.

HM: And you believed that was the case for a very long time and now having learned that your father may not have died of natural causes, that someone allegedly killed him. How do you even begin to process that?

AH: Well, it's really actually really tough to process because when I thought the first time when he passed away I mean the human body can only endure so much. Nine strokes, dementia and the human body is only able to endure so much. He endured more than he could. And I just believe that that's what took him. But how do you process this? It's very hard to process when you're told two and a half years later that somebody might have aided in the death of your father or pushed the death of your father along and that's it's indescribable the feeling you get of anger, sadness and everything in between you just don't know how to react to that.

HM: Do you plan to attend the court proceedings in the future?

AH: Yes I do, every single proceeding there is.

HM: How do you think you'll sustain yourself through all that?

AH: It's going to take a lot of discipline and a lot of patience, a lot of restraint. I'm going to be just watching and listening and learning. Like my father used to say, “Listen and learn”, I’m going to listen and learn and hear the facts as they come in all the evidence as it comes in. And I don't want to place judgment on anybody or anything before I hear that the final statements or the evidence comes in.

HM: Have you got to know any of the family members of the other alleged victims through all this?

AH: I got to know a few of them today actually a lot better. I get to meet a lot more of them today which was really great because I realized that we're all in this together and nobody stands alone in this. So it's really good to know you're not alone and that we're all in this together.

HM: All right. Look I really appreciate you speaking with us, Mr. Horvath and all the best to you.

AH: Thank you so so much. Thank you very much.

HM: All right, take care. Bye bye.

AH: Bye bye.

ATW: Arpad Horvath Jr. is the son of our Arpad Horvath, who died in August 2014 at a care facility in London, Ontario. Mr. Horvath is an alleged victim of a former Woodstock nurse Elizabeth Wettlaufer. Ms. Wettlaufer is facing charges of first degree murder, attempted murder and aggravated assault.

Chicago police report

Guest: Jeffrey Neslund

ATW: Laquan McDonald was 17-years-old when he was gunned down by a Chicago police officer. he was shot 16 times. It was a year before video of the shooting was released to the public. Video that showed the teenager walking away from the officer, directly contradicting the Chicago police department’s story. For the last 13 months the U.S. Federal Department of Justice has been investigating the Chicago police. Today they released their findings and they are scathing. Jeffrey Neslund is the attorney representing the Laquan McDonald estate. We reached him in Chicago.

HM: Mr. Neslund, this report from the Department of Justice says that the Chicago police department regularly violates civil rights. In what ways does it find?

JEFFERY NESLUND: Well, the report which is not a shock to anyone who practices civil rights work here in the city of Chicago. Found that the policies and practices of the department violate the Fourth Amendment in the use of force and in particular in the use of deadly force. It also found that the disciplinary system in place is practically worthless and that in the last five years in the shooting cases the Department of Justice reviewed. Less than 2 percent of the shootings were found to be unjustified or there was any discipline at all.

HM: How do you see the report in light of what happened to Laquan McDonald, did he face some of the things that were outlined?

JN: Well, absolutely it was Laquan’s case that really was the tipping point here in Chicago because you not only had a horrific police shooting that was captured on a crystal clear video. But you also had the subsequent attempt to cover it up with false police narratives about what happened as well as false civilian witness statements. So it was a combination of the shooting itself and the subsequent cover up that really brought it to the attention of the Department of Justice.

HM: Along with the excessive force described, the report talks a lot about the proceedings when police are questioned. The aftermath of such incidents and many people may be surprised by a finding that the police department actually is required to allow officers to receive coaching when they're being interviewed for a potential misconduct. How does that affect the investigations and the outcomes?

JN: Well, it turns the investigations into shams really. By union contract The Chicago Police Department has a contract with the policemen's union that they cannot interview a shooter for 72 hours after the incident. And in those 72 hours what typically happens is you have the same union lawyer and the same union representative kind of circling the wagons with other officers. Everybody gets their story straight. And then finally after 72 hours the shooters interviewed. So by that time you get this false narrative that every shooting that ever happened in the city of Chicago is justified.

HM: The report also talks about cover up culture within the force. What does it say?

JN: The vast majority of Chicago police officers don't pick up any complaints of misconduct. But what happens when an officer does commit an act of misconduct or excessive force. Nobody steps up. They either go along or didn't see it. And that code of silence has to change or else there is going to be no progress here in Chicago.

HM: Who is most likely to have their civil rights violated by Chicago police according to the report?

JN: Well, it's obviously it's people of colour it's the black and Hispanic communities where unfortunately the most crime does occur. And in those neighborhoods is where you have the hyper aggressive policing which has led to acts of excessive force.

HM: And does the report make recommendations on how to address that?

JN: You know it's just the first step. The report is a little short on specific details. What it is, is an agreement between the federal government and the city of Chicago to work towards what they call a “consent decree” which will be enforceable document in federal court and will be monitored by an independent monitor. They will make specific recommendations and then follow through to see that the city carries it out. But would this is today is really a preliminary agreement that they're going to negotiate that consent decree. And that’s coming down the pike.

HM: Right. And that deal is negotiated with the Justice Department under Loretta Lynch. Of course, there have potentially Jeff Sessions or someone coming out as the new Attorney General in the United States. Are you concerned that deal might change that there might be some limitations to it in the future.

JN: Oh, I think you have to be I mean you have an Attorney General coming in who has made a quite public that he does not believe in or does not like consent decrees. It is going to be a 180 from what we have with the current administration. So I think there is a dedication and commitment here on the local level, but whether there's going to be a willing partner on the federal level. We're going to have to just wait and see.

HM: Why do you think this has taken so long?

JN: You know I tell you if it wasn't for Laquan McDonald's case that again was really the spark here. And otherwise what you had was a code of silence that was allowed to fester and police misconduct was swept under the rug. But now with the age of dash cam video and almost everybody on the street has a smartphone that can videotape what has been happening for years is finally now out in the open.

HM: This is a city which has had such a growing rate of violence in the last few years the number of shootings and murder. A police force presumably under great pressure, is there a concern here that that police will throw up their hands? That there will be problems with the force itself in accepting all of this?

JN: Police officers and not just police officers, but people who are resistant to change. And what's happening here in Chicago is really a historic change, but it's necessary. And officers are going to have to be used to and comfortable with body cameras and functional dash cams and audio transmitters because if you're going to rebuild the trust with the community which you have to do you're going to have effective law enforcement then it has to be transparent. How do you get that transparency? It's with body cameras. It's with you already are transmitters and if officers are not comfortable with that new technology then this probably is not going to be the job for them.

HM: Jeffrey Neslund, thank you for speaking with us. I appreciate it.

JN: Sure, anytime.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

JN: Bye bye.

ATW: Jeffrey Neslund is an attorney in Chicago. He represents the estate of Laquan McDonald, a 17-year-old shot dead by police in Chicago in 2014. Today, the U.S. Department of Justice released a scathing report on their investigation into the Chicago Police Department saying that the force routinely violates civil rights.

[Music: Somber]

Leitch letters

ATW: Kellie Leitch has been misunderstood. The Conservative leadership contender has led a no button campaign against what she's called the “media glitterati” and other self-hating Canadian elites. And in the process she's been accused of being some kind of anti-elitist. Wll yesterday Kelly Leitch cleared that up for good. According to the student journalists at the Prince Arthur Herald, Dr. Leitch was speaking to some young Conservatives in Montreal. Someone seemed to have questioned one of her policies. Here's Dr. Leitch’s response.

SOUNDCLIP

KELLY LEITCH: Please understand that I have 22 letters at the end of my name. I’m not an idiot.

ATW: That was anti-elitist Kellie Leitch in Montreal yesterday trumpeting the honorifics after her name which indicate her impressive education and her title as the former minister and counselor to the Queen. Dr. Leitch clarified her position today saying there are only 18 letters. Let's count. Here's the mouthful as posted on the parliamentary website. The Honorable Dr. K. Kelly Leitch, Privy Councilor, Order of Ontario, M.D., MBA, F.R.C.S.C.

[Music: Rock]

Wax presidents museum auction

Guest Randy Dickensheets

ATW: If you happen to be in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania this weekend you could have a once in a lifetime opportunity. Che chance to bid on George W. Bush and then put him wherever you want — as long as it's air conditioned. Gettysburg’s Hall of Presidents and First Ladies wax museum has closed down. And tomorrow all the goods including the noble, dusty, somewhat terrifying wax men and women within are to be auctioned off. You can see a picture of those goods on our website. Randy Dickensheets will be the auctioneer. We reached him in Gettysburg.

Randy Dickensheets, can you start by describing for us some of this inventory that's going on sale tomorrow.

RANDY DICKENSHEETS: Well the inventory is in the museum that was open for 60 years with well over a million visitors. And we have full-size presidents from George Washington straight through to Barack Obama. We have the first ladies which are about a third of the size and they come out about three foot ten inches tall and they're dressed in their inaugural gowns and the actual person who made the gown took the patterns from the real gowns from the Smithsonian.

HM: What kind of condition are they in?

RD: They’re in nice condition. But like all museums they went through some restoration, some changes even to the point where maybe they had the heads redone just to you know make a change maybe one look one way or another.

HM: Right, so are they all intact like head to toe everything is there?

RD: everything is there except for Thomas Jefferson is missing I believe his left hand. Nobody knows where it went. It's always been that way. It's just not there.

HM: Your dog is very excited.

RD: Yeah, I have a pup in the office here.

HM: No worries. So when you look at them are there any that you know in particular stand out to you as maybe not looking so accurate, being a bit off?

RD: There is a number that I personally thought Bill Clinton doesn't quite look like Bill Clinton to me. But you know maybe another person might see Bill Clinton. There are some that really look real well such as Dwight Eisenhower, I thought he looked really good. Most of them I think you can tell who they are. However, there are some that you would really have to maybe have an imagination.

HM: Why are the first ladies all the same size and so tiny?

RD: Well, they didn't have room in this particular museum to make them all full-size. As far as the bigger the cell if you will look over the pictures that are on the website you'll notice a lot of familiar faces on them. So I think the sculptor apparently I think he mostly took one design and maybe changed a little bit of this or that. And I think they were more trying to capture the inaugural gown than anything.

HM: So who are the folks that are going to be interested in buying these figures? I guess you've had people scouting around a little bit?

RD: Well, I can tell you there's a distant relatives of the presidents and first ladies. I can tell you there's other museums interested in them. There’s schools either from high school or colleges. We have some professional shop owners that have gown shops for the ladies that would love to have one of them. It's a conversation piece to have on display. And also with many shops the formal mend shops that have one of them on display.

HM: Is it true that there's a lady who has a haunted house that wants one to scare people with?

RD: She showed up at one of my other sales. Let me tell you she's a very exciting bidder. I never had a bidder like in my whole life. She just stood and screamed and but she was a good bidder, I’ll say that. She is a little different, but she does have two haunted mills. Of course, I question that because the owner was hoping that these would find good homes.

HM: Now you want good bidders. How much you think they're going to go for?

RD: Well, that's the million dollar question there. This is one that doesn't come up for sale with time so we can't really go back to check the records. I would guess that the average one will start out and go from between 1 to 5 thousand. But it will not surprise me that people will bid five, ten, 15 or 20. Even up to $20,000 for it because if you want one then this is it.

HM: Thank you very much for telling us about it good luck.

RD: All right. Thank you.

ATW: Randy Dickensheets is an auctioneer in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. Tomorrow he'll be auctioning off everything in the Hall of Presidents Wax Museum including every inanimate U.S. president and first lady to see photographs of these wax figures. Go to our website www.cbc.ca/AIH.

[Music: Ambient]

Tommy Allsup obit

ATW: Can you remember the most important coin toss of your life? Can you remember any coin toss period, probably not? They're usually pretty low stakes. You win some, you lose some. But the late Tommy Allsup never forgot the coin toss he lost in 1959. The only reason he was alive to remember it was because he lost it. In February of 1959, Mr. Allsup was playing lead guitar for Buddy Holly on the Winter Dance Party tour of the American Midwest. The bill also featured Ritchie Valens and the Big Bopper. Everywhere they traveled was freezing and the heaters on the tour buses kept breaking down. So when Mr. Holly arranged for a plane for a few musicians everyone wanted to warm seats. Ritchie Valens wanted Tommy Allsup’s seat. He asked him for it over and over again. Finally Mr. Allsup pulled out a 50 cent piece, flipped it and told Mr. Valens to call it. Mr Valens called heads. It was heads, seemed like bad luck for Mr. Allsup. But just minutes after takeoff the plane crashed in a cornfield, everyone was killed. Mr. Allsup died this past Wednesday of complications from a hernia operation. He was 85. After that one fateful flip of a half dollar he left nothing to chance. He just kept on working and became a well-respected studio musician, producer and arranger. He worked with Willie Nelson, Bob Wills, the Everly Brothers and Kenny Rogers. Paul McCartney once called him one of the finest guitarists in the world. He was grateful and humble. I never really wanted to be a big star he once said. I figured I'd leave that to someone else.

Part 2: North Ontario suicides, inauguration band.

North Ontario suicides

Guest: Alvin Fiddler

ATW: A Northern Ontario community is in mourning this week, after two residents took their own lives. Both were girls. Both were 12-years-old. The indigenous community of Wapekeka is located hundreds of kilometers north of Thunder Bay and there are worries that other young people there may be at risk. Alvin Fiddler is the Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation which includes this community. We reached him in Thunder Bay Ontario.

HM: Chief Fiddler, I understand that you've been in touch with some of the family members of these two girls. It's hard to imagine how anyone would be coping, but what have you been hearing from them?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, I mean obviously they're struggling to cope with what's happened in the community and they're getting their help right now that they need to help them through this terrible experience.

HM: What about the other people in Wapekeka? How are they dealing with these deaths?

AF: Well, we've put in place teams of counselors and therapists to go into the community. To not just work with the immediate families that have been impacted by these two losses, but to work with the community. Especially the youth and the children in the community to ensure that they are assessed and that they are given access to any of the supports that they may need.

HM: How concerned are you about other young people in the community given what we sometimes see in terms of the patterns of these things?

AF: Yeah, we're very concerned and we're taking this situation very seriously and that's why we've organized a daily conference call with government officials, other agencies to ensure that we have a coordinated plan for the community for the next few days. And in the next few weeks as well I think it's important that we put in place a long term strategy for the community once this crisis passes.

HM: I understand a number of young people have been flown out for some care?

AF: Yeah, and it's mainly for their safety. We want to ensure like I said that all the youth all the children in the community are properly assessed. If they can be helped in the community that's great you know. But if the medical personnel feel that a child may be unsafe where they are then then they need to be taken out for a while, which as I understand is happening in some of these cases.

HM: How many how many young people have been removed?

AF: I believe four were flown out this week.

HM: What sense do you have or what are you hearing as to what it was that possibly led these two young girls to feel so desperate to take their own lives?

AF: You know it's difficult to say at this point without some sort of an investigation. I think what we do know however is that the community of Wapekeka has struggled with suicide in the past. You know back in the 90’s they suffered many losses to suicide and they did come up with a plan. They developed their own strategy to address the issues that they were facing at that time. And my understanding is that in the last year or last few years that funding has become an issue for them and they've struggled to implement the programming that they've developed for their youth and children in the community and that's something we need to look at as well.

HM: How is that program supposed to operate and what is the shortfall doing to it?

AF: Well, there's different pieces to their programming, but I think one of the main things that I know has worked in Wapekeka and also in other communities is land-based programming to ensure that children and youth are able to go to the land to be able to learn more about their culture and the traditional teachings. And that's something that is a big part of their programming as well as an annual conference that they used to have called “S.O.S” or “Survivors of Suicide”, which was very beneficial to not just their community, but to the other communities as well because there were other community members some other places that attended those conferences. And that's something that was very effective and that's something that we need to revisit as well.

HM: When you talk about this financial shortfall is it that money has been cut or that it's just not keeping up with the growing needs?

AF: Well I know for example, they submitted in July of this summer they submitted a proposal to Health Canada for some specific programing targeting specific youths. And unfortunately that that proposal was not approved and that's something that we will again bring to the attention of Health Canada for them to look at to look at that proposed programming.

HM: This is a remote community. What is life like there for young people?

AF: It's a small community for sure. Population is around 350 people, it's remote, isolated accessible only by winter roads in January to March. But it’s their home; you know that's where they've lived for thousands of years. And you know this phenomenon around suicide is a fairly recent one. And that's something that we need to get a better handle on why this is happening in our communities because you know 50 years ago or even 30 years ago suicide was never an issue for our communities.

HM: You know, we hear these stories over and over again. I'm just wondering you know do you feel like people aren't being heard, that these communities aren't being heard about what a problem this is for young people and the risk it poses to them?

AF: I think we've been heard. There's been a number of studies and commissions. We did our own for example, in a territory back in the mid-90’s ‘96, ’97, ‘98. It's entitled the “Horizons of Hope” report. It was a commission that traveled throughout the territory and visited many of our communities and heard from youth and elders and community leaders and frontline workers and we did another one two years ago and they released a report last January. So it's not new or it shouldn't be news to anyone that this is happening in our territory. It's something that has been presented to the government in the past and we need to do that again because it seems to me that no one is really acting on these reports and these recommendations. Especially this time, 2017 where it can is going to be celebrating 150 years of its existence later on this summer and yet this is still happening in our communities. I don't know how they can celebrate their 150th birthday well many of our youth and children are dying and suffering.

HM: Chief Fiddler, I appreciate you speaking with us today. Thank you.

AF: Thank you.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

AF: Bye.

ATW: That was Nishnawbe Aski Cation Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler. We reached him in Thunder Bay Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Chris Steele

ATW: It has not been a good week for US President-elect Donald Trump. On Tuesday BuzzFeed published a dossier containing salacious allegations against Mr. Trump. The claims have not been verified, but they suggest that Mr. Trump was complicit in Russian hacking during the election. They also suggest the Kremlin has compromising financial and sexual information about Mr. Trump. All of which he strenuously denies, but it may have been an even worse week for the author of that dossier. Christopher Steele, Mr. Steele is a former MI-6 officer. His work is reported to be well-respected in the intelligence community and now that his name has gone public he has gone into hiding. One person familiar with Mr. Steele's work is the former British ambassador to Moscow Sir. Andrew Wood. Mr. Wood spoke to the BBC this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: Can I ask you about Chris Steele. You know him well?

ANDREW WOOD: I know him as a very competent professional operator, who left the secret service and is now operating his own private company.

HOST: You trust his work?

AW: I do not think he would make things up. I didn't think he would necessarily always draw correct judgment, but that's not the same thing at all.

HOST: He has gone into hiding now.

AW: It's not surprising.

HOST: Because he is right to be fearful of what?

AW: Well, first would be the whole flood of reporters outside his door all the time and he'd be called on to make constant comments and that's not usually very helpful. And secondly because if his sources have told him the truth and he's conveyed the truth, that in itself is rather dangerous knowledge.

HOST: In this sort of situation how dangerous? I mean is it the sort of thing that the that Russia would perhaps want to… I don’t know? Do what?

AW: Well Russia would certainly like to know where he got his information from. Assuming the information is basically true. And he hasn't just made it up, which I don't believe for a moment. And they're accustomed to take action.

HOST: His source, of course, could have made it up and could have made it up on the on the part of Russia?

AW: It could have done. That be a fairly elaborate exercise designed to get it Crystal. I don't really see why that would be done.

HOST: Although ultimately whether it's true or not are we in a situation where President Putin is in a more powerful position as a result of this?

AW: I think the fact that it's been exposed or rumored or suggested reduces that power. I think also that Mr. Trump is not a man who's regularly driven by bashfulness or shame. And even if it is true that he's been compromised in that way he would react pretty strongly and say well say what. That's my opinion.

ATW: That was Sir Andrew Wood the former British ambassador to Moscow speaking to the BBC.

[Music: Ambient]

Inauguration Band

Guest: Will Forte

ATW: Bruce Springsteen wouldn't be caught dead playing a Donald Trump inauguration event. But if you're at the Washington Court Hotel in the U.S. Capitol on the 19^th, and you close your eyes you'll swear The Boss himself is roaring out his heartland anthems and if you're a fan you'll just swear. But it won't be Springsteen himself. It'll be a tribute group called the B Street Band, who are currently taking a lot of heat for agreeing to play New Jersey State Society's Inauguration Gala, which bills itself as a nonpartisan events Will Forte is the founder and keyboard player for the B Street Band. We reached him near Belmar, New Jersey.

HM: Will Forte, what do you think The Boss would think of you playing an event that celebrates Donald Trump's Inauguration?

WILL FORTE: OK well, let's let me explain what we're doing. First of all because that's not really what it is when I'm playing. When I'm playing I'm playing The New Jersey Inauguration Gala OK, and this has a long history. This is a nonpolitical event that is held the night before the Inauguration the actual Inauguration. So it's a celebration of New Jersey and it's a celebration of the office for respect for the office of the president.

HM: Do you expect the crowd to be made up of equal parts from Republicans and Democrats?

WF: Yes. Oh yes. I certainly do. I mean for a bunch of stiff working musicians which we are. We don't have an agent. We don't have a manager. We do everything ourselves. We do on our own production, our own sound, our own lights. We're just a bunch of working musicians. And for us it is an honor starting in 2009 to be part of an Inauguration due to respect of the office of the presidency to perform in Washington. It has nothing to do with the political end whatsoever. It just is a real honor for a band like ours to be there. There was headlines in the media saying Trump hired Springsteen tribute band and it's not true.

HM: OK, let me stop you there. So in Springsteen's actual E-Street Band bassist was one of the people who's been critical Gary Talent he said he tweeted, “Please tell me this is more fake news or at least a joke?” What do you want to say to him as a fellow musician?

WF: OK, now Gary may have read the headline of one of the media outlets that says Trump hire a Springsteen band. You know tweeting, I don't tweet, but I understand there's only short sentences there's not an explanation of everything because only so many words are in there. So Gary Talent has sat in with our band you know along with Vinnie Lopez maybe a few years back. And he was very nice and we talked and I think if I spoke to Garry and told him exactly what we're doing I think he would understand.

HM: Can you give us an idea of some of the negative responses that you've been getting since that news came out and those headlines that as you point out are not accurate. But what are you hearing from people?

WF: The backlash that I get is from people that don't know our band and just see the headline like you said before. The headline of the Trump hires Springsteen tribute band. When they see that, of course, they are upset because they think that we're not respecting Bruce's music or his wishes.

HM: What kind of impact is that that negativity that that bad response having on you and your fellow band members?

WF: Well, I don't know yet because it's just you know I don't know because it's just happened 24 hours ago.

HM: But is it causing you stress?

WF: I will say this. I was taught I was brought up in a coal mining town by hardworking parents that taught me a few things. They taught me that when you make a promise you uphold your promise. When you make a commitment you honor your commitment when you sign a contract you honor your contract. OK, so I was taught that. So I'm as far as I'm concerned and the band is concerned. Unless I hear from the real boss OK my real boss that he would not like us to you know attend this event. I'm going to go through it no matter what the repercussions are.

HM: You mean the man himself?

WF: Well you figure it out. I said the real boss. You know what I mean.

HM So Bruce could change your mind if he gave you a call?

WF: Of course, of course. You know I mean, of course, I mean like I said at the beginning, we owe everything that we have accomplished. I've met my wife through his music. I've had four children through his music. You know all my relationships and whether it's social or business have been brought on indirectly by Springsteen. You know I mean we would never do anything intentionally to disrespect him in any way whatsoever. We're just a little satellite that travels around the sun and Bruce being the sun. We're a little satellite that circles. That's it. Not trying to get in anybody's way.

HM: Yeah. Are you worried about your future bookings though?

WF: Not really. No. Not so much. I mean I worry about everything. I worry about you know supporting my family. But right now I still think that if the situation is presented like I am to you and that's why I'm on the phone with you right now so people hear the real story that we are not playing the Inauguration as is stated. We're playing a New Jersey Gala we are a New Jersey band. You know what I mean? I mean they would be so disappointed. This event is run by women and they work hard. They are so proud of their event. If you guys could see what this event is like and how proud they are in the state of New Jersey and its culture and its people and everything else. I mean I would definitely understand.

HM: Well I'm a fan of The Boss and the band and I'm just wondering can you tell us what the first couple of items are on your set list? First few songs?

WF: Yeah actually you know it's funny we are a band that doesn't we go up on stage we don't even know what the first song is going to be. But I'll tell you this is going to be a mixture of Bruce, Bon Jovi, Frankie Valli, Sinatra you know all of Southside Johnny, it's going to be a mixture of all these stars of New Jersey's music you know I mean and it would be a mixture, but I couldn't even tell you what the first song was. It may not be the first few songs you may not even be Bruce songs.

HM: That sounds disappointing.

WF: But I mean it's just a feel. You know I just feel?

HM: Anything political? Because some of his song do have a political tinge to them?

WF: Which ones?

HM: Well I think some of the songs off of “Nebraska”.

WF: No not really. You know what we are you know we're a fun band. We're a bunch of fun working guys. Blue collar guys we have a place perform for probably millions of people over 37 years and we bring them a lot of enjoyment because they like the interpretation of what we do with Bruce's music and how we perform.

HM: Well I appreciate you taking time to talk with us today.

WF: Thank you. I'm excited I love Canada. I mean you know. And I honestly I am not doing a lot of interviews per se at this point, but I wanted to do your show.

HM: Well we appreciate you joining us. Thank you very much.

WF: Thank you.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

WF: Bye bye.

ATW: Will Forte founded and plays keyboards with the B Street Band, a Bruce Springsteen tribute group. We reached him near Belmar, New Jersey.

[Ambient]

Smog poem

HM: Last week a familiar wall of smog descended on Beijing and stayed there. The pollution was 20 times higher than safe levels. The government just responded with smog alerts and fines against polluting industries. But one Chinese surgeon responded by writing a poem. Dr. Zhao Xaiogang’s work “I Long to Be King” is written from the perspective of a growing lung cancer and has been spreading around social media in China. Here's Angeline with an English translation of the poem.

ATW: I am a ground glass opacity in the lung. A vague figure shrouded in mystery and strangeness like looking at the moon through clouds. Like seeing beautiful flowers in the fog. I longed to be king with my fellows swimming in every vessel. My people crawl in your organs and body. Holding the rights for life or death, I tremble with excitement. When you called me atypical adenomatous hyperplasia. Then when I matured you declared me adenocarcinoma in situ. when fully developed your fearful denomination invasive adenocarcinoma. You forgot my strenuous journey to become the king from tiny to strong, from humble to arrogant. None cared when I was young, but all fear me when full grown. I've been nursed on the delicious mist and haze. That sweetly warmed my heart. Always loving when you were heavy drunk and smoking. Creating me a cozy home. When I was less than eight millimeters I was so fragile waiting for a chance to grow. Now more than eight millimeters, I am more mature and considered worthy of notice. My continuous growth gives me a chance to be king. As I break through layers of obstacles spanning the mountains and waters, my fellows march to every corner and occupy every region. My quest to become king has been full of obstacles. I was cut until almost dead in childhood, burned once I had matured and poisoned when older. Happiness after sorrow, rainbow after rain. I faced surgery radiotherapy and chemotherapy, but continued to chase my dream. Some would have given up but I will be king. I longed to be king with fellows and subordinates. I longed to be king to have peoples fear and respect. I longed to be king to dominate my domain. I longed to be king to direct your fate.

HM: That was a poem written by a Chinese surgeon from the perspective of a growing lung cancer. Dr. Zhao Xiogang was inspired to write it by those smog that has blanketed Beijing for 168 days over the last year.

Part 3: Encore: author Ian McEwan on his novel “Nutshell”

Encore: Ian McEwan

ATW: Ian McEwan's latest work may be called “Nutshell”, but do not suppose it can be easily summed up. Mr. McEwen is the author of such critically acclaimed novels as “Enduring love”, “Atonement”, “Saturday” and the Booker Prize-winning “Amsterdam”. Like each of those novels, “Nutshell” is full of suspense and intrigue. And the book's protagonist likewise shares many traits of some of his previous main characters. He is highly intelligent, loquacious, witty and full of opinions. But from the get go in “Nutshell” Mr. McEwen demands that the reader suspend his or her disbelief and accept that the novel's narrator, who is himself in literal state of suspension. Is capable of telling his story which could be a bit of a challenge because in one crucial aspect Mr. McEwen’s central character differs from any and all he has previously brought to life. Ian McEwen joined Carol in the As It Happens studio last fall. Here again is that conversation.

CAROL OFF: Ian McEwan, welcome back to As It Happens.

IAN MCEWAN: Thank you.

CO: now you have to tell us because I didn't reveal it in the introduction, we didn't tell anybody. Who the narrator of “Nutshell”?

IM: The narrator of this novel is remarkably young and hasn't even been born yet. He's in his 38 week. He's looking forward and he also has some trepidation about being born. And he looks back rather nostalgically on his youth when he was tiny and had a little more space. Now he's very scrunched up and his ears are pressed against the bloody walls and he's overhearing pillow talk of deadly intent.

CO: And as you said, “So here I am upside down in a woman.”

IM: Yes, that's the line the reader has to cross the very first sentence. You either buy into this given or you don't.

CO: When you first proposed this to somebody or spoke it out loud and said this is what I intend to do. The narrator of my next novel is going to be an unborn baby and a child still in the womb. When you first said that what was the reaction?

IM: Well, I was already well into it maybe I was three quarters the way through and I don't usually tell people what I'm doing for my wife. But I was talking to my publisher Dan Franklin and he said in the usual polite way, “what are you up to?” So I said well I'm rewriting Hamlet from the point of view of a highly intelligent, articulate fetus. And his eyes sort of glazed over and he said with very little conviction “Great.”

CO: He didn’t you say, “Come on! What are you really doing?”

IM: No, he believed me.

CO: He believed you?

IM: He believed me and he steeled himself for it. But fortunately when the typescript was in his hands he adored it, so it was no problem.

CO: And it is absolutely extraordinary. You completely 100 per cent pull this off and I wouldn't have thought hearing about it from you before I’d read it. I could believe that it could work, but it's masterful. The most lame question you can pose to a writer is where did you get your idea? But in this case I think you owe us an explanation as to how you came up with it?

IM: Well, it seemed to me at the time like a piece of luck. I was in a very boring meeting, hours and hours and it was all about me, but it was in a foreign language. So I daydreamed having put my face into the right attitude of polite attention and almost like a tickertape this sentence arose and it didn't quite come out of nowhere because some little time before that I'd been sitting with my daughter-in-law, who was pregnant with her first child. And the baby was I think just a week or two away and we were talking about the baby and I was looking at this lovely hopeful bump, lump, knoll as I say thinking there is this person in the room, we're talking about him or her, we didn't know what she was going to be. So that had already lodged in my mind as a possibility so when suddenly this voice said to me I of nowhere, “So here I am upside down in a woman.” I thought there's something in that for me. And so I just jotted it down in a notebook sat on it for a while as I always do and then began.

CO: And then not only to have a fetus telling the story of what's happening and it's a thriller it's a very dramatic tale. On top of all the other things that are going on, but the fetus is remarkably well informed and articulate and aware and a wine snob to boot.

IM: Yes, very rapidly he acquired these qualities as we went along. His mother listens a lot to the radio. He doesn't have much agency. Like Hamlet himself, he's not a man of action like most fetuses. So sometimes in the night he'll kick his mother awake, she'll get insomnia, turn on the radio and he gets all the news that way. She also listens to podcasts. So he's read “Ulysses” and many other books and he has listened to a 15 part podcast called “Know Your Wine”. Now his mother against all medical advice is drinking with restraint at first, but as she gets deeper into a murder plot to murder her own husband, she starts to drink a little more as murderers do. And well my narrator just can't say no. I mean he has no choice. And he points out that nobody's really tasted a good sancerre unless it's decanted through a healthy placenta. And you know he knows his French wines extremely well. He can date them. He knows them down to the last terrier — the last feild. So that's another side of him. He loves his pleasures basically.

CO: When you were writing this into the story that she loves her wine and he does to — the unborn does — were you preparing, bracing yourself for that reader someplace. Or more than one who says don't you realize what that's doing to the unborn, Mr. McEwan?

IM: Well, he says you know he knows that wine will lower his intelligence, but it lowers everyone's intelligence, so he's fine with that. And anyway he's got some intelligence to spare I think. He can take a few points knocked off his intelligence. The point is this, this is a playful fantasy. And, of course, while I was in The States, I was frequently asked is this a pro-life or pro-choice novel? And I said listen if you're going to base social policy on a novel like this then you're doomed. This is not a really important contribution to that debate.

CO: Did you have any one sort of realist viewpoint. Mr. McEwen Don't you realize that a fetus can't talk?

IM: No, but there were some hilarious moments during the copyediting when I try to cover most things that you know sources for what he knows. But now and then you know, while his mom is out on a balcony in a heat wave sunning her tummy he says suddenly I can see a bit you know and I can see that my fingernails need cutting and it's a bit like being in a photographic darkroom. And the copyeditor says when will he have been in a photographic darkroom? Well, you know you've got to cut me some slack here because this is not a novel of high realism.

CO: Now you you've already said “Nutshell” the title comes from Hamlet from the phrase, “Oh God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space were it not that I have bad dreams”. But it is more than just the title; Hamlet is woven into this account?

IM: Very much so, I mean he's a kind of Hamlet really. It's also a kind of Shakespeare, which is why I had to try and soup up the writing and the metaphors a little bit and keep the sentences to quite an iambic pattern. Although, my narrator also reflects a great deal on the trochee, the reverse of the iamb. His mother and is having a love affair with his uncle and they are plotting to kill his father. Simple as that, so I've taken it one chapter before the action of Shakespeare's Hamlet, which opens of course with Hamlet Sr. already dead. Partly because I think the plotting of the murders is fascinating too, but I don't mind giving the plot away by the way in this novel. Their murder plot succeeds, so like Shakespeare's “Hamlet” what falls on him is the heavy burden he feels at least at first of the obligation to avenge this death. And it's really difficult when you're a 38-week-old fetus to do much. But he you know he attempts suicide, he reflects on suicide like Hamlet. He has the cord to wrap around his neck and the novel pushes to a conclusion that is somewhat different from the sword fighting that characterizes a triumphantly the end of Shakespeare's “Hamlet”. But there's a kind of dramatic equivalent.

CO: OK, in the interest of some non-spoilers. Don't reveal how the fetus is able to thwart their efforts or at least mess up their plan. But at the same time the fetus is… well the poison is in the in the ear. It's in the smoothie and in the kingdom of Hamlet — the kingdom of Denmark — that he's pursuing in the Shakespeare play this is now real estate in London. This is valuable real estate.

IM: This is a huge house in a very expensive street in London — an actual street. The house is in incredible decay, but still it's worth somewhere between six and eight million pounds. The plot of his mother and his uncle is to kill the father, inherit the estate completely, take it over, sell it and dump the baby. So I mean he has good cause to try and interrupt this plot. He fancies that he'll be dumped in some sort of dreadful project-like housing or tower-block and being neglected child, inhaling secondary smoke and possibly about to be eaten by the dog on a string. This is the fate he needs to avoid.

CO: I'm speaking with Ian McEwen about his wonderful new novel called “Nutshell”. And he's in the studio with me at As It Happens. Now he thinks a great deal about the world he's going to go into and with desire and longing, but trepidation and fear all mixed together. And he's listening to all the news, he's aware of what's going on. Why was it important for this unborn child to regard the world he was in in that way?

IM: Once you have an unborn child speaking for you and reflecting in this completely unreal way it seemed natural for him to reflect on the world that he's about to enter — inherit. Take responsibility for in some respect. And so, he's very glad at the start he knows that he's born as he says into a “condition of modernity” anesthetics, reading light, oranges in winter, holidays, things that did not exist 500 years ago. And he's pleased that he's in a relatively stable part of the world. Northwest Europe, not his first choice the United Kingdom. He would have chosen Norway for its gigantic sovereign fund or Italy for its sun-blessed decay or France for its Pinot Noir and jaunty self-regard. But still he's happy enough to be in the United Kingdom — A less than United Kingdom as he puts it. But he's hearing the news and he's alarmed there's many things that trouble him: climate change, terrorism, migration. At the same time he's trying to be an optimist about this world that he's learning about. For example, he notes that the number of people living in abject poverty has dropped by 400 per cent in 30 years. People are living longer. Children are escaping infant mortality on an amazing scale. Various diseases have been defeated and there's communication by most extraordinary machines and science is in a golden age. So he's not entirely a pessimist in this and this optimistic account does not deny the rest. They run in parallel and this is very much my own view. We can't be total optimists nor can we be total pessimists. We have got some things to be proud of in the human project. So he's I mean in many respects he carries my views, but not always. And so he's curious about being born. He sees the 21st century as a big book that he wants to read. He wants to be there on that last day of the 21st century. Eighty five years old, dancing a jig. Knowing whether we've scraped through without a nuclear exchange, knowing whether sea levels have risen to quite the horrific degree or whether we've kept global temperatures roughly 2 per cent which is bad enough. So the world for him is not quite his oyster it is a semi-poisonous oyster in a way. And he is impatient. He's impatient to be there, but everything is overshadowed by the plot to kill his father.

CO: And just to stay with the large kind of current affairs themes just for a moment because there are actually elements of things that are going on obviously while you're writing this novel and one of them is what is happening in Europe right now. I mean he says in one of his quotes — the unborn child's quotes, “Europa's secular dreams of union may dissolve before the old hatreds. Small scale nationalism, financial disaster and discord.” This Is actually going on in Europe right now. Do you share his concerns his concerns?

IM: His concerns mine Madame Bovary Semois. I think the EU project, which I would maintain is one of the most heroic and brilliant set of human treaties in the history of politics is facing enormous pressures now Brexit is adding to those pressures and I'm very sorry about it. My narrator would have been a remainer along with me. I'm sad that we're leaving. I'm sad that we're not just putting our shoulders to the wheel and trying to make The Union a better place.

CO: The other major current affairs event that is happening in real time is the refugee crisis and hundreds of thousands of people coming not just from Syria, but from all parts of the world. Clamoring to get into Europe, trying to escape what they are leaving whether it's war famine or we're just in countries where they can't live anymore. And it's as it comes up, he has his own views, but also he's aware that the his father and his uncle don't share the view of who these people are and whether they should be given refuge.

IM: His father, John Cairncross takes the wider a much more sympathetic view. His uncle, who is a creature of great banality and very limited perception takes a much darker view of the crisis. Nobody has the answer to this the problem is we will see it in the German elections later this year that Angela Merkel, who welcomed her home million in. Is now really threatened politically, she might not make it through. So the opportunity has opened up for nationalist right-wing parties. So it is not easy. No one has a very good answer. What we need above all would be a cessation of hostilities in Syria. This is very difficult with Russian support for Assad. My narrator doesn't go into the fine print of this actually. He just notes that one moment Europe is full of sympathy the next moment it's hardening its heart and it sways between these things in a mere photograph can you know pull it one way or the other. So yeah it's a difficult problem, but as long as Russians are supporting Assad, it's very very difficult to reach any kind of way of stopping this tidal wave of misery and misfortune.

CO: Back to the novel, the unborn child hears his uncle say of them the jungle as it's known as all these refugees who were trying to get into Great Britain that says, “Thank God for the English Channel”.

IM: Yes. Yes. Which prompts his father to the famous passage about England set in the glittering sea. That's the view of many. Actually I mean you know if you keep close to the British tabloids, which I tend to these days, that's an often repeated sentiment.

CO: Let's talk about Claude just for a moment, of course, Claudius in Hamlet is the uncle and in this it's Claude. And Claude is a banal character, he just whistles jingles and ringtones and then like the fetus’s father is a poet. He is a publisher; he's a man of letters. He reads, he has books and he has to deal with these two men who are.

IM: Yes, I mean my narrator cannot conceive why his mother would abandon a poet of any quality for a man so dull so cliché ridden as Claude. But he begins to understand because he has very intimate access to their lovemaking. That Claude has two essential elements and put together they're deadly. One is to be unbelievably boring and the other is to be highly sexually potent and capable. He can toss Trudy over the gates of Paradise in a couple of minutes.

CO: It’s very quickly to his tremendous relief.

IM: It's the most untendered lovemaking you can conceive and as my poor narrator, who has to experience this close up says, “It would shake the wings of a Boeing”. So it's perilous being a fetus in this position.

CO: At the same time though he thinks so highly of his father, his father doesn't seem to have much regard for him he's conscious of that?

IM: He is in a state of agony in relation to both parents. He loves his mother, he's got no choice since. He deeply loves his mother, but she seems to be scheming to kill his father and give him away and he longs for the love and regard of his father, who never seems to mention him in any of the conversations that he's overhearing and yes feels neglected by both. He's a kind of existential hero in a way. Abandoned by the two people who love him most requires.

CO: In the book there is an opening of a chapter which is a letter that he is composing — has composed — to his father.

IM: Yes, his father has arrived at the house and his mother and his uncle have prepared a smoothie that contains glycol which will kill father if he drinks it. So at this point my narrator unable to do anything about this and he hears his father coming down the stairs mentally writes him a letter which of course he can never post.

CO: Could you read it for us?

IM: Dear father, before you die I'd like a word. We haven't much time. Far less than you think, so forgive me for coming to the point. I need to tap your memory. There was a morning in your library, a Sunday of unusual summer rain, when the air for once was clean of dust. The windows were open. We heard the pattering on the leaves, you and my mother almost resembled a happy couple and there was a poem you recited then too good for one of yours. I think you'd be the first to concede, short dense, bitter to the point of resignation. Difficult to understand the sort that hits you, hurts you, before you followed exactly what was said. It addressed a careless, indifferent reader a lost lover a real person, I should think. In 14 lines it talked of hopeless attachment, wrecked preoccupation, longing unresolved and unacknowledged. It summoned a rival mighty and talent or social rank or both and it bowed in self-effacement. Eventually time would have its revenge, but no one would care or even remember unless they chance to read these lines. The person the poem addressed I think of as the world I'm about to meet. Already I love it too hard. I don't know what it will make of me whether it will care for me or even notice me. From here it seems unkind, careless of life, of lives. The news is brutal, unreal. A nightmare we can't wake from. I listen with my mother rapt and glum enslaved teenage girls prayed over then raped. Barrels used as bombs over cities. Children used as bombs in marketplaces. We heard from Austria about a locked roadside truck and 71 migrants left to panic. Suffocate and rot. Only the brave would send their imaginations inside the final moments. These are new times. Or perhaps they're ancient, but also that poem makes me think of you and your speech last night and how you won't or can't return my love. From where I am, you and my mother and the world are all one. Hyperbole I know the world is also full of wonders which is why I'm foolishly in love with it. And I love and admire you both. What I'm saying is I'm fearful of rejection. So say it again to me this poem with your dying breath and I'll say it back to you. Let it be the last thing you ever hear. Then you'll know what I mean. Or take the kind of course, live rather than die, accept your son, hold me in your arms. Claim me for your own. In return I'll give you some advice. Don't come down the stairs, call out a carefree Goodbye, get in your car and go. Or if you must come down, decline the fruit drink, stay only long enough to say your farewells. I'll explain later until then I remain your obedient son.

CO: That's wonderful. Ian McEwan reading from “Nutshell” his new novel and he's here in the studio with me at As It Happens. That passage sums up everything including his appeal for his father not to direct the smoothie. But it's also about his love. This is a very loving child as you hope children — babies — are. And he talks about that he already loves the world too hard and he aches to be part of it. Do you have a concern that young people don't have that love? That too early they become pessimistic or even cynical?

IM: Well, when I think back on my own life I was recklessly pessimistic in my 20’s and I think it's a luxury the young can afford. Which is why they make good political activists in a way, they're furious about the injustices they see. As you get older you still see the injustice, but you also you have a stake in this that's bigger. And so you want the project to succeed. So you do cast around for the good things as well as I hope remaining aware of the bad things too. So optimism becomes a frail rope into the future. A future in which you will not be a part, but you want your children, your grandchildren, their children to live a better life and to succeed and to love the planet. And I think that was a turning point in the modern consciousness when we all first saw that photograph. “Earthrise” taken from the moon the earth rising looking stunningly beautiful, but so frail amidst billions of miles of sterility this beautiful blue and white and grey thing rising over the moon's horizon. And I often think of that photograph how it suddenly gave us that sense of the stunning beauty that we take for granted. I mean and I think that's really why I've been a hiker all my life. Just every now and then to remind yourself what an amazing rock we're on and how we need to care for it.

CO: Do you fear for its frailty?

IM: I do. I do. And I think not only climate change, but a nuclear exchange or any of the other possibilities we might self-harm on a large scale. Yes, it worries me, but I still think that at the heart of all political struggle there must remain a streak of optimism. Pessimism will just paralyze us.

CO: The last line of Shakespeare's play “Hamlet” it says, “The rest is silence”. Can you tell us the last line in “Nutshell”?

IM: Well, “the rest is chaos”. He makes a kind of humanist appeal to the notion that the only meaning in life is the meaning we give not supernatural entities. So he calls as it were for us to exert ourselves. The pursuit of meaning is the meaning of life and that meaning has to be human-generated. So it is a call for an old and very respectable, beautiful tradition of humanism that stretches back to another thousand years. I think it's a greater and mightier tradition than anything religion can put all away from Lucretius and many other thinkers. John Stuart Mill and onwards beyond that if we don't do that there lies chaos.

CO: Ian McEwan, thank you for coming into the studio and thank you for this book.

IM: Well thank you for having me again.

ATW: From October of last year that was author Ian McEwan discussing his latest novel “Nutshell” with Carol in the As It Happens studio.

[Music: Rock]

ATW: And this brings us to the end of as it happens for Friday January 13th and for this week.

HM: the show was produced this week by Jeanne Armstrong, Imogen Birchard, Sam Colbert, Chris Harbord, Katie Geleff, Samantha Lui, John McGill Kevin Robertson, Pedro Sanchez, Earvin Solitario, Kate Swoger. The technician is Reynold Gonsalves. The show director is Kevin Ball. Chris Howden is our writer. Our intern is Sarah Jackson. John Perry is the senior producer and the executive producer of As It Happens is Robin Smythe.

ATW: We'd also like to thank some other people who helped us out this week. Jack Julian in Halifax. Kristin Nelson in Ottawa. Susan McKenzie in Montreal. Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg. Michael O'Halloran in Calgary and Anne Penmen in Vancouver.

HM: Adam Carter in Hamilton. Fiona Christensen in Sudbury and in Toronto Yasmine Hassan and Devin Heroux. As It Happens will be back again on Monday. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol off. Good night.

ATW: I'm Angeline Tetteth-Wayoe, sitting in for Jeff Douglas. Have a great weekend.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Jan. 13, 2017 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode