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The AIH Transcript for November 27, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Not remotely tariff-ied. Donald Trump's tough tariff talk is clearly unsettling Canadian politicians. But a Mexican trade negotiator who dealt with the first Trump administration explains why he is not going into panic mode.

CH: Fight or flight. A new surge of gang violence in Haiti forces some aid workers to flee the capital. The UN's humanitarian coordinator tells us why she is staying put.

NK: You can fight city hall. The people of Bonnieville, Kentucky, have voted to dissolve the city's government, but their mayor warns that that is going to create problems, starting with the fact that tonight their streetlights were switched off.

CH: There must be 50 ways to name your rover. And it so happens that the mayor of Athabasca has a great name for the Canadian Space Agency's new lunar rover. And that name is Athabasca.

NK: Snow justice, snow peace. A 12 year old activist says no to online classes when blizzards strike and yes to the return of the snow day. And support for her initiative is piling up.

CH: And fish for a complement. Orcas are wooing each other and marine biologists by embracing a fashion trend they haven't sported since the late '80s, wearing dead salmon as hats. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that would love to wear a fish hat but can't salmon up the courage.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mexico Tariffs, Colorado Snow Days Petition, Athabasca Rover Name, Orca Salmon Hats

Mexico Tariffs

Guest: Juan Carlos Baker

CH: Canadian politicians are still working out how to respond to Donald Trump's tariff threats, but Mexico's president is returning fire. On Monday, Mr. Trump said that he would impose 25 per cent tariffs on imports from both the United States North American Free Trade partners. This morning, Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum took to the mic to see those tariffs could cost Americans as many as four hundred thousand jobs and added, quote, If there are U.S. tariffs, Mexico would also raise tariffs, unquote. Juan Carlos Baker is a former Mexican deputy trade minister who was part of the negotiations of the current Canada United States Mexico Agreement. We reached him in Mexico City.

NK: Juan Carlos Baker, knowing what you know about negotiating with this incoming administration, this president-elect, certainly when you hear the kinds of words he's been using to talk about why these tariffs need to be in place and at the level that they are, you know, he talks about drugs, illegal aliens, invasion of our country. Those are Donald Trump's words. What does that language suggest to you?

JUAN CARLOS BAKER: Well, it's a, thank you for having me, Nil. A pleasure to be at the show. I'm afraid that those words and the rhetoric and the way that President Trump articulates those ideas, especially trying to justify his policies, a gives me a very strong sense of deja vu. We have seen this before. A clearly President Trump with the announcement that he made 1 or 2 days ago, in my opinion at least, is trying to solidify or to strengthen his hand. And once that he goes into the White House in late January.

NK: Does this make you, does that sense of deja vu make you less worried or more worried at this stage?

JCB: It makes me probably quite worried. I mean, the fact that we know how Donald Trump behaves and the fact that it's clear that he's a very transactional person and certainly tells us or our governments, Mexico and Canada as well, some sense of what to do. I mean, we are not flying blind as we were back in 2017. But I would warn against believing that that Trump 2017 will be the same as Trump 2025, because there are other elements that right now, unfortunately are not present but that were very evident on his first administration. And the most obvious one is that right now, President Trump knows how to fly the plane. If you allow me the expression, he knows how the government works. He knows that he's got this power that he can wield in the sense of executive orders to translate his ideas into actions without going through the proper regulation. So again, I guess that probably we know how to deal with Trump, but we will have to test that knowledge every single day against this new version of Donald Trump.

NK: Just before I came in to speak with you, as you've likely seen, your president said she got off a call with Donald Trump. She described it as an excellent conversation. Those strong comments she made this morning. Tough talk from her. How do you think the president- elect would do with how she is operating?

JCB: I think that President Sheinbaum delivered the message that needed to be delivered. And let me explain why I say that, the letter, the message previous to the call that she disclosed in terms of saying, you know, there are clearly benefits for the North American countries in having the kind of relationship that we have, those are things that Mexico would like to keep to, would like to build upon them. And at the same time, if there are legitimate concerns, we are able and willing to talk about them. But please don't get me wrong. That's and interpret in what she said. If there are tariffs, Mexico will respond in kind. Because in my experience and on this, that's the way that the message, her message has been interpreted here in Mexico. You need to stand up to Donald Trump. Obviously, you have to do it in a way that is at the same time intelligent and strategic. Because if you don't and this is also my own personal experience as part of the Mexican team and when I was in government, you know, he can be very overwhelming. His ideas, his policies. He can be, you know, just run you over. No. But at least Mexico's basic most general line has been already drawn, which is let's cooperate. Let's talk to see where we can do things together. But also, make no mistake, if you bite me, probably I will bite back as well.

NK: Some Canadian premiers are speaking out, concerned about the threat of these tariffs and have been calling for Canada to cut Mexico out and negotiate a bilateral agreement with the United States. Yesterday, Ontario's premier, Doug Ford said, quote, To compare us to Mexico is the most insulting thing. I've ever heard, unquote. What would you say to Premier Ford?

JCB: I would not respond to that claim. I would not even dignify the claim with an answer. I obviously believe that the premier Ford is either not fully informed of the extent of the relationship between Mexico and the U.S. and between Mexico and Canada, or either probably he's got other motivations to make those claims. I am not familiar with Canadian politics. I'm not saying that he's trying to position himself in a different light given the future electoral processes whenever they happen. But again, I will just broadly say that the comments that the Premier Ford made are unfortunate, to say the least. Now, I will just finish with this. The last time that we, when we renegotiated the NAFTA to turn it into the current USMCA, Mexico and Canada actually cooperated together. I know that there probably are dissents or there is misinformation saying that last time around Mexico behaved selfishly or that Mexico did not look out for Canada or what have you. And nothing could be further from the truth.

NK: What does that conversation or that kind of discussion, whether you agree with them or not, what does that suggest to you about the likelihood of a trade war once this administration actually begins its work at the end of January?

JCB: Well, Mexico is not going to initiate any trade war. I actually believe that having a trade war is the last thing that North America needs currently. We should actually be probably thinking on how to address other challenges that we as a region have. But Mexico is not going to initiate one. But clearly and again, this is not my position. And President Sheinbaum, Mexican President Sheinbaum, said so. Mexico will consider all its options available, all its legal options available to respond to such claim and eventual threats that may translate into public policy. Now, if a trade war does come into North America, well, I hope that cooler heads prevail. I hope that diplomacy makes its magic. As it had happen before, Nil, I think it's important to remember that in the past, some tariffs have been slapped between Mexico and the U.S., between the U.S. and Canada. And in those occasions where tariffs were indeed placed, in the end, we could worked out some deals that removed those tariffs. So again, we're not going to initiate that one. But we are aware that it could happen. And if any past experience or history says or predicts what we will do today, just looked at what happened in the past. And the answer is right there.

NK: Juan Carlos Baker, thank you for your time.

JCB: My pleasure. Always a pleasure to talk to you. And I have the feeling that we're going to be speaking more often on this topic. [laughter]

NK: Well, glad to have you back on the show anytime. Juan Carlos, thank you.

JCB: Thank you.

CH: Juan Carlos Baker is a former Mexican deputy trade minister and negotiator. We reached him in Mexico City.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Colorado Snow Days Petition

Guest: Emily Beckman

CH: After the pandemic lockdowns, the largest school district in Colorado Springs, Colorado, changed its policy. Instead of giving everyone a day off when a blizzard hit, kids had to shift to learning online. After all, they had proven they could do it. But as you might expect, not everyone is a fan of the new ways. And now a leader has emerged to give those critics a voice. Her name is Emily Beckman. She's 12 years old and in grade six. And just a week ago, she posted a petition online calling for the return of snow days. In just a few days, she's racked up around three thousand of the five thousand signatures she hopes to collect. We reached Emily Beckman in Colorado Springs.

NK: Emily, I hear it's snowing in Colorado Springs. Does that have you dreaming of a snow day?

EMILY BECKMAN: Yes, it does.

NK: What is your idea of the perfect snow day?

EB: My idea of the perfect snow day is, first of all, you get to sleep in till, like, 10 a.m. If you're that tired and you get to read books and cattle with your pets, go outside sledding, snowball fight and we come back in, you get hot chocolate with marshmallows and whipped cream.

NK: All of it, the works. That does sound like a pretty great day. I'm not going to lie. What is a typical day like when you have classes online instead of a snow day, now?

EB: It's having to wake up my usual time for school and sadly not getting to sleep in. It's also making sure that my mic works and my camera works and having to make sure I have the right class and the right time. And when I log on, we usually have to do mic checks and it takes like 10 minutes to do attendance.

NK: I get the sense you don't love an online class.

EB: No, I don't.

NK: You've gotten used to them, I bet, over, you know, since they were brought in after the pandemic. But what was it that made you want to do something about it?

EB: It's actually a funny story. But one time, like about 30 minutes before school ended, our teacher asked us, Well, what was the greatest invention ever created by humans? And I decided that it was snow days. And I was talking with my friends about their answers. And I'm just like, you know that they're taking snow days away. And they say, what? Why? And I don't know exactly, but it has something to do with extra learning and stuff. But you know what we should do, we should start a protest. And so we did. And that weekend I happened to have a swim meet, which meant I have a lot of free time over the weekend. So we started a petition online.

NK: Most people wouldn't think the weekend they have a swim meet is a weekend that they have a lot of free time to do nothing. They might be worried about their swim meet, but clearly you are a multitasker.

EB: Yes, I am.

NK: [chuckles] So I can see certainly that that dream snow day you describe does sound fantastic. And I can see that they're fun. I know what they're like. They were fun when I was in school. But is there more to it than that for you? Are you saying that snow days are more than just fun?

EB: Yeah. They give older, sometimes older kids a chance to be younger kids again or play with their little siblings in the snow or even shovel their neighbours driveways for fun or just to be nice.

NK: The school board doesn't necessarily agree. As you may have seen, the board released a statement saying in part, they are, quote, committed to regularly reviewing feedback and adapting to meet the needs of our students, staff and community, unquote. And they also said for snow days instead of online learning. They said that could end up making the school year longer. What do you think of what the school board is saying?

EB: Well, what our petition is proposing is not actually to set the school, end of school back further because the school board has six built in snow days. And for some reason, four of them are e-learning. And all we're asking is to make all six of them traditional snow days. So it won't set a year back and we get to have fun in the snow.

NK: It's been up for a week, as I understand it, three thousand signatures last we checked. Even if it's just close or if it passes five thousand. Do you think the school board is going to come through and do what you're asking?

EB: In my opinion, I do honestly hope and think that they will, because with this many people on my side, they kind of are just like, well, if this many people wanted it, then why shouldn't we do it?

NK: And what if it doesn't go your way?

EB: Then I guess we like won't be sore losers and we'll just, I don't know, maybe try again in a few years and just try to make the best out of regular e-learning days.

NK: Yeah. You seem really comfortable with, you know, challenging things that are bothering you and think, that you think should be better. Is this the first time you've seen something happening and wanted to do something about it?

EB: No, because one time in third grade when we were like playing tag or dodgeball in PE, the boys were being really aggressive and me and my friends thought that wasn't like, okay for them to do, especially because they were doing it for no reason. [NK: They were pushing] If they lost they'd like, be really upset.

NK: Yeah. They were pushing you guys.

EB: We eventually, oh yes, they were pushing when we were like playing tag and stuff. So we decided one day that we are going to start a protest and we did a month of protesting until finally they're just like, if you guys stop protesting, then we will be more nice and considerate during PE.

NK: Well, how considerate of them [chuckles]. What was your protest like? What did you do?

EB: Well, we got little signs and during recess we would just sit down holding up our signs. So like everybody that walked by and sometimes kids would look at us and smile and other times they just, like, stopped to read our sign. And once or twice, some even sat with us.

NK: Well, you got them on side. Okay? You won that battle. We'll see what happens with this one. Are you even at this point thinking about what you want to do or be when you're finished school? Emily When you're older.

EB: Like my major in college?

NK: Or even after that, I mean, are you thinking, are you thinking politics? I bet people are asking you about that given how active you are.

EB: Yeah, I kind of am. I'm thinking about helping people stand up for what they believe in, even if not everybody agrees with it. Because even though some people have different opinions than others, it's still okay to stand up for those opinions. Even most people, though most people might be against it.

NK: You guys must have the best conversations at dinner. Emily.

EB: We do.

NK: [laughs] Emily, I appreciate your time. Good luck with the petition.

EB: Thank you. I appreciate your time too.

NK: Take care, Emily.

CH: Emily Beckman is a grade six student and pro snow day activist. We reached her in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Athabasca Rover Name

Guest: Robert Balay

CH: The Canadian Space Agency is sending its first lunar rover to hunt for water on the south pole of the moon. And as we told you on Friday, since it will be too far away to point out it's going to need a name. Neither the CSA nor my own co-host were especially fond of any of my suggestions. So I guess we'll just have to choose from one of the four finalists that the agency has selected, which are Courage, Glacier Pol-R and Athabasca. And it turns out that last one has some Canadians pretty excited. Robert Balay, for one, is over the Moon about it. Coincidentally, he's the mayor of the town of Athabasca. We reached him on the road in Lethbridge, Alberta.

NK: Mayor, some of us, some of us were not so impressed with this list, mainly because, you know, we thought Canadians should have a chance to make their own suggestions. I have a hunch that that one of these names on the list was a pleasant surprise for you.

ROBERT BALAY: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of, kind of caught us off guard because we really didn't know anything about it. So, you know, but once it was announced that we were one of the four names being considered, well, you know, we were extremely happy about that and excited.

NK: How did the word get to you?

RB: You know, the word got to us through an email that, "oh, did you know that Athabasca was being considered as a name for the moon, the Moon Rover". And at first I thought, is this for real? You know? And I saw the other names and I said, yeah, okay, that's great. So when that happened, it just the excitement started to spread locally and, you know, we started to take some steps to see if we could influence a little bit. You know, the decision, you know, for the name to be chosen.

NK: And I want to talk about those steps in a second. But to be clear, this was chosen as one of the options for the Athabasca River, not your community, necessarily. Does that make a difference to you?

RB: Yeah. Well, we realized that it was after the Athabasca River and but we saw it as, hey, you know, name recognition and, you know, an opportunity. So, you know, I think it's, it's very positive overall. So, you know, that's what created all the excitement.

NK: So what is the strategy? What are you and others there doing to get Athabasca painted on the side of that rover?

RB: You know, obviously we've started a social media campaign. You know and, you know, we've involved some of the schools. We've involved our anchor employers to get on board. One of them is actually Athabasca University, which is a research centre. They actually have had an individual who has been doing research into space for 30 years. Martin Connors or maybe 40 years, I'm not sure. But so, you know, that's, that's a good fit. You know, we've actually extended or helped encourage all the communities that share the Athabasca River along with us, right from Jasper to Fort McMurray and beyond. So, you know, to get on board with choosing the name Athabasca over the other three names and, you know, basically that's kind of it, you know.

NK: And there's voting underway as well. Have you voted yet?

RB: I have voted yes. I'm pretty sure you know which one I chose.

NK: I mean, I think I have a hunch. But we've done some investigative work there, and we've found out that you voted more than once.

RB: Well, I used. I used two e-mails, right. So and it allowed me to do that. So I just took advantage of what it was allowed. And my wife isn't going to vote, so she's going to count as one of those two votes.

NK: [laughter] I love that you have, you have an answer ready.

RB: We're still legal.

NK: Still legal. Still on the up and up.

RB: Yeah, exactly.

NK: How would you describe what the river means to you and your community?

RB: The whole hub of our community in the summertime is on the river fronts. You know, we have, you know, a waterpark, a skate park, a big playground, you know, campsites all along there. And it really is the centre of our community for the summer. So, I mean, that means a lot. And as I thought about this and the connection with the name, throughout Canadian history, the rivers were used as a ways and a means or even a vehicle for exploration. Right. So that ties in perfectly, I think, with the Moon Rover because it was designed and built for exploration. Right. And so I think the connection is there. And if people make that connection, hopefully they will vote Athabasca.

NK: Well, you have a you have a whole country of listeners here. Yeah.

RB: Well, let's get on board, people.

NK: There are other contenders, as our listeners have heard. We'll repeat them. Glacier, Pol-R, Courage. I mean, courage is pretty good, too. There's a recent Celine Dion song to tie into that. How are you feeling about the competition?

RB: Well, you know, I think all the other names are okay. I don't you know, I think if you think about what stands behind them, I think Athabasca, if you really do the research, I think Athabasca makes the most logical connection. And, you know, I guess Courage is a bit inspiring in its own way, but our preference is obviously, is Athabasca. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

NK: [laughs] Does your town really, really need something like this? What would it mean other than just bragging rights?

RB: Well, no, I think it has, you know, some branding opportunities, like I mentioned to someone else before that, you know, we have some other communities that have a giant Easter egg and some that have a giant sausage and things like that. I think there's one up North in Glendon has a giant pierogi, right. So we could have this giant moon rover and it would actually be a draw for people to come in for tourism. Right? And then they would just see how beautiful the area is. We have so many lakes and of course, the river to explore and there's great camping. So, you know, I think it has some real potential.

NK: You're already planning the building of the monument. I like it.

RB: Yeah. I already got a spot picked up.

NK: [laughs] Okay, well, we'll talk to you if things go your way, Mayor.

RB: If we're successful, that's it. I'm pretty sure that that's going to happen.

NK: Thank you, Mayor, for this. Have a great day.

RB: You're very welcome. Have a great day yourself, bye.

CH: Robert Balay is the mayor of the town of Athabasca, Alberta. We reached him in Lethbridge.

Orca Salmon Hats

[Music: Everybody Have Fun Tonight by Wang Chung]

CH: The year is 1987. Wang Chung are being hailed as better than Mozart and Beethoven put together for this song, 'Everybody Have Fun Tonight'. The hit film: 'Three Men and a Baby', asks the hilarious question, what if men had to take care of a baby? And on TV, Canadians are glued to a brand new game show in which contestants try to decipher vanity license plates. That's right. It's "Bumper Stumpers". Meanwhile, in the ocean trendsetters were premiering stylish new waterproof hats. [Sound effect: whale jumping out of the water to people saying oh and awe] That's an artist's rendering of what it sounded like when the human public first glimpsed the wildest fashion trend of the late '80s, orcas wearing dead salmon as hats. In South Puget Sound in 1987, a single female orca started swimming around with a dead salmon draped over her head. Pretty soon, other orcas were doing it, too. And over the next month and a half, dead salmon hats were to orca's as giant shoulder pads were to humans, simply de rigueur. And then they went out as inexplicably as they had come in. And orcas returned to their classic style monochromatic nudity. But as everyone who refuses to throw their hammer pants out knows, fashion is cyclical. And last month, photographers noticed to their astonishment that 37 years later, orcas in South Puget Sound are once again wearing dead salmon as hats. Why? Well, one theory is that there's a surplus of salmon in the Sound right now. So the orcas are just storing them to eat later, on their heads. Another theory is that the orcas are embracing retro cool, you know, going vintage. And that is my theory anyway, because to me, and I guess to the salmon, those hats are to die for.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Haiti Worker Relocation, Jared Clarke Trans Laws, Bonnieville Ends Local Government, ISS Thanksgiving

Haiti Worker Relocation

Guest: Ulrika Richardson

CH: Amid the gunshots and fighting in Haiti in recent days, there's been another sound echoing through the capital. Helicopters. As we told you earlier this month, gang activity in Port-au-Prince has increased to a new level, forcing the airport to close and leading to attacks like the one that saw an MSF ambulance stopped and two of its patients killed. The attacks have forced more than 40 thousand Haitians to flee their homes in recent weeks, and they're not the only ones on the move. This weekend, a number of American diplomats left the country, and the World Bank has temporarily relocated much of its staff to Cap-Haitien in the north of the country. And now there are reports that the United Nations is evacuating staff out of the capital. But Ulrika Richardson says the UN is there to stay. Ms. Richardson is the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Haiti. We reached her in Port-au-Prince.

NK: Ulrika earlier this month. As I understand it, there were a roughly 300 United Nations employees working in the capital for a variety of different UN agencies as of today. How many are left?

ULRIKA RICHARDSON: As of today, I would say that among the international staff that work for UN agencies, the majority of their staff is still in the capital. You know, some had to leave in order to take leave, you know, medical appointments. We have put some of them in the regional offices that we have to be able to support us during the situation where the insecurity in the capitals is quite significant.

NK: Do you have a specific number at this point?

UR: Right now, because we have people coming in, we have people coming out to give you a number today would be probably outdated by tomorrow morning. Yes.

NK: Certainly our listeners know and you know well, the dangers in Haiti have been increasing, to put it mildly. What was the turning point for your team in Haiti to come to this decision?

UR: Well, I would say our decision has been, in fact, very constant. Our decision is to stay in the capital and deliver for the people that we serve. So I think this is our core decision.

NK: But you are still you know; these helicopters are still evacuating aid workers as needed. Just a couple of weeks ago, I spoke...

UR: Let me just jump in here. Because I think that there is a, our helicopters are always flying between Port-au-Prince, Cap-Haitien, Jacmel, Lakay, Gonaïves. These are the places where we fly because what we do is that we fly people from here to Jacmel. Then we take people from Jacmel to here. This is aid workers doing their work.

NK: So, is what has been reported not correct, then, that your aid workers are not leaving Haiti?

UR: If the report is that our aid workers are leaving Haiti? That is not correct. What I said in the beginning is that you have some people who need to go out for rest and recuperation. They stay out for a week. They come back in. We have people who have run out of medicaments. We have people who have family emergencies. And because we were stranded, our helicopter, they were actually covered by this federal aviation ban. And it took us a few days before we could obtain a waiver to fly our helicopter, which is an American machine. And so that backlog was actually a lot of people who had to go home, for home leave, for vacation, you know, or simply had to go and pick up new medicine. Right. So in terms of the UN agency's funds and programs, we have not left the country. And as I said, we used the methodology of being able to work in the capital as work, as in some of our offices. We have eight offices around the country. Right.

NK: Yeah, I just wanted to, I just wanted to make sure that we had the clearest facts. So I appreciate you underlining that as well. Is it accurate to say there are fewer UN workers in the capital specifically right now than there were earlier this month?

UR: Well, I think that what we have doing, we are adapting our operations. Obviously, when the gangs, you know, as I said, if as I said, we put some people in in Cap-Haitien to work out of Cap-Haitien, some, for example, if they can do a better job in Gonaïves, there's a lot of needs in Gonaïves. Than we do so, we relocate some people. But the majority of people are still in the capital.

NK: A couple of weeks ago on the program, I spoke with Christophe Garnier, the head of mission for MSF in Haiti, after one of their ambulances had been attacked. Obviously, this led to difficult discussions with the MSF team. What are those conversations like with your team? Because it's a balance. It's a fine line of trying to keep everyone safe but doing this work.

UR: In fact, what we are doing is that we have a lot of conversations with our respective teams. We try to make sure that we provide stress counsellors to teams who have been witness to very stressful and could be very painful situations. For example, lots of violence, but also the fact that we make sure that as much as possible we can actually introduce provisions to help staff move around more safely, for example, through armoured vehicles. We have, of course, a lot of information on where, let's say, pockets of violence are happening. So we use that type of, of course, security analysis that we have available to make sure that, okay, today it is not a good, good time to go to Croix-des-Bouquets but tomorrow let's go there, for example. So that type of dialogue we always have with our, with our colleagues and we have also, of course, in the capital, as you may know, the capital is also very varying degrees of violence, for example, where many of our offices is right now. It's quite calm today. That is what has actually this was the area that was attacked by gangs on the night of the 18th and which really sort of showed us the intent and the potential capacity that they have. There were they were pushed back by the police and the local populations. But just to say that we have established different, let's say security measures and that actually allows us to, to the extent possible, of course, and be able to balance the duty of care that we have towards our UN personnel, but also the commitment we have to stay and deliver in the capital for Haitians.

NK: I wanted to ask you more about the tens of thousands of people you displaced, some for the second or third time. Where are they going?

UR: Yeah. So right now we see the majority of the 41 thousand recently displaced by this latest wave of violence. Let's remember that, in fact, Haiti has seven hundred thousand displaced people. So these 41 thousand. What we see is that they mainly move from one neighbourhood to another. The roads to the north and the south are blocked. And so they basically take refuge in the capital and we see new, very, let's say, spontaneous sites being established. And of course, that is also, adds to the complexity because we need to be out there and see where are people going and what is the type of support that we can provide. We are working day and night in very difficult neighbourhoods as well to actually provide hot meals. For example, last week, 43 thousand three hundred internally displaced people were provided hot meals on a daily basis. The clean water that we truck in, but also mobile clinics. Let's face it, these are people as all of us would be extremely traumatized. A child that witnesses violence so close. It's not what a child should need to witness, but they have. And so they need support. Imagine the complexity of the situation and that's why it's even unfathomable to think that we wouldn't be on the ground every day because we need to make sure that we know what is happening around us so that we can be of help to those most in need.

NK: Ulrika, I very much appreciate your time. Please take care.

UR: Thank you so much.

CH: Ulrika Richardson is the United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator in Haiti. We reached her in Port-au-Prince.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Jared Clarke Trans Laws

CH: Yesterday, Jared Clarke, an NDP MLA in Saskatchewan, addressed the ways he believes his own children have been affected by an election promise made by Premier Scott Moe, who declared that he would restrict students use of changerooms in schools to their sex assigned at birth.

SOUNDCLIP

JARED CLARKE: This was a very challenging election for my family and I want to put some words on the record today about what transpired in regards to my family. The Premier put a target on the backs of my two 12 year old kids. He held a press conference to stoke fear and outrage about two kids at an elementary school. While my children’s picture was circulating on social media identifying them. While unimaginable hate was raging down on my family. I have sat in this chamber as an MLA since October of last year, and this is the second time that this Premier in one year has decided to attack trans kids. Some of the most vulnerable people in our province. All presumably because he thought it was a good political strategy. The first was, of course, Bill 137. Really, the fact that these are my kids is frankly irrelevant. But what I will say is when people show you who they are, believe them. The Premier owes my children an apology. He owes all transgender kids in this province, especially transgender people in this province, especially kids, an apology for how he has made them feel so unsafe over the last year. Transgender kids are not scary. Transgender people are not scary. They are not people that we should be afraid of. They are people who deserve to be treated with respect and dignity and love. To all the transgender youth out there in Saskatchewan and across this country, as well as their parents and loved ones and the rest of the 2SLGBTQ+ community. I want to say we on this side of the chamber see you. We love you and we support you. We want you to be safe, happy people in this province so that you can live your best life. And we will always fight for your rights to be you. I look to the entirety of the Sask. Party government team at this point. Attacking trans kids is your legacy, too. I'm proud to say that my team never went after any of their kids.

CH: NDP MLA Jared Clarke speaking in the Saskatchewan legislature yesterday. In response to Mr. Clarke's speech a government spokesperson provided a statement reading in part, "the Minister of Education and then the Premier commented on this matter in response to questions from the media. At no point did they identify any students. The Premier in his campaign consistently stated that the identity of individual minors should never be part of any political debate".

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Bonnieville Ends Local Government

Guest: Marie Whitlow

CH: U.S. election day was obviously a hugely important day for the country, but for the city of Bonnieville, Kentucky, population 270, give or take. It was the most important day. After picking a presidential candidate, Bonnieville residents had to flip their ballots over and vote on whether or not to dissolve their local government. And the people voted 67/60 in the end to get rid of it. City Council made up of a mayor, six council members and a clerk will soon disband and Hart County will take over governance. People will no longer have to pay a city tax and the city will become an unincorporated territory. And today, Bonnieville streetlights will stop working. Marie Whitlow has been the mayor of Bonnieville for nearly four years and will continue to be mayor until December 8th. We reached her in Bonnieville, Kentucky.

NK: Mayor, have you allowed yourself to imagine what it's going to be like tonight when those street lights go out?

MARIE WHITLOW: No, not really.

NK: Yeah. You don't want to.

MW: I don't want to. It's going to be very, very sad and upsetting. So, I'm going to drive through town [inaudible]. So, I am.

NK: How have you been sort of preparing yourself for what is happening?

MW: Well, I've been so busy since the election with paperwork and just everything that needs to be done to close down the city. I had no idea there was so much involved.

NK: People might wonder, you know, I know Hart County is going to absorb Bonnieville. Why can't they or that county keep the lights on?

MW: Well, it's a huge county. And they said they couldn't afford to pay the electricity for that many lights in one town and not do the other towns the same. Which I understand they are super busy and we're not a rich county, but we have two tourist towns in this county. So we're doing okay. I was so hoping, Bonnieville could, you know, join with them to be a tourist county, too. But or city. But it didn't happen.

NK: Were you hoping up until the, up until, you know, the vote. I mean, it's a small community close vote in the end. Did you, were you surprised by the result?

MW: Very surprised. Yeah. I thought it was, I thought the people would not vote for it to go down but they did not understand how to vote the way they had it worded on the vote paper. They all said that they were confused over it. They weren't sure whether to put yes or no the way it was worded.

NK: This started just to let our listeners know back in 2022, a resident was arguing city taxes. You know, she's saying she doesn't mind paying taxes, but she didn't think they were doing anything. I think she pays 30 dollars a year there or was paying that. She didn't think they were doing any good. Three of your council members joined that petition. So what should people take from that? That even some council members don't have confidence in local government.

MW: Those council members were on... They had a vendetta against the city that I just found out about. I didn't even know anything about that.

NK: It's, it does happen that smaller cities are amalgamated, you know, by larger ones. There's an argument that it can be more efficient or that city services are better integrated. Do you think that that's the case? That's what's happening in Bonnieville?

MW: No. We pay the bills with all the money that comes into the city. You know, city taxes, franchise, you know, different things we have to pay the bills with that. We have a lot of bills and they don't, I made sheets, two sheets showing exactly what the money went to pay every month. And the only thing that they came up with was not, thank you for making this report for us, but well, if the city was unincorporated they wouldn't have these bills.

NK: But what will this, you know, being under the umbrella of the county going to mean, what is life going to... I mean you won't have streetlights. So what are, what is life going to be like in Bonnieville? What kind of services will people have? And they're still going to send money to Hart County for taxes? No.

MW: Yeah, they have to pay their county taxes.

NK: Right. So what will they be like there?

MW: Well, there are certain individuals that have a chance to keep their light on if they pay the bill every month, which some of them are doing, the ones that are not. It's going to be dark. And for the older people, it could be dangerous.

NK: So individual, individual streets, individual homeowners are going to pay for the lights outside their door.

MW: Yes. The electric company said that they could keep it on for certain price and they could have light, a light pole.

NK: On December 8th, Hart County is going to take over the city assets. That's the date, December 8th. City signage is going to be removed.

MW: They're going to leave the signs up. The welcome signs to Bonnieville they're going to stay up.

NK: And what is your personal plan after December 8th?

MW: A long vacation [chuckles] I don't really have any plans. I retired and, you know, I don't get a salary being mayor. We don't, none of us get paid. So, I don't know. I get a part time job just to stay busy.

NK: Have you thought of, I mean, are there discussions about pushing back against this decision?

MW: On down the road there is. We're going to give it a couple of years and let them see what they've done. We can't bring, start to bring it back until another presidential election year, has to be 4 years. And then we have to get a petition going of signatures that want the city back. And then we take it and get it on the ballot to be voted on.

NK: Is that a worthwhile fight for you?

MW: It is to me. Yes, it is. Well, I was born and raised in this town. I love it. I love the people. I know everybody. And if anything, somebody's house burns down, the whole town comes out and helps them. It's that kind of town. And I just hate to see it destroyed by people that have moved in here from other states and decided they didn't want to pay the city taxes. So they went on a campaign to stop the city, kill the city. I'm not exactly friends with them, but I still speak to them. I'm not angry because I let this in the Lord's hands and His will was done, so I have to agree with it.

NK: Mayor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MW: Well, you're very welcome. And thank you for calling.

CH: Marie Whitlow is the mayor of Bonnieville, Kentucky. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

ISS Thanksgiving

CH: If you're listening in the United States of America, I hope your Thanksgiving preparations are going well. I know there's always a long list of things to get done and a longer list of subjects that are not permitted at the table. But no matter how straightforward or complicated your dinner plans are, a guarantee none of your meals will be put together as fast as the meal the astronauts aboard the International Space Station will be having. Today, NASA astronauts Don Pettit, Nick Hague, Suni Williams, and Barry “Butch” Wilmore sent down a video wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. And while you listen to their message, picture white bags of space food floating around.

SOUNDCLIP

SUNI WILLIAMS: Greetings from the International Space Station. Our crew up here just wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving to all our friends and family who are down on earth and everyone who is supporting us.

NICK HAGUE: And one of those big traditions is having a Thanksgiving meal together. And so we're going to celebrate that tradition up here. Though our meal may look a little bit different, Don, if you hold the might, of course. So we've got a container here of all the things that we're going to enjoy on Thanksgiving. It is a feast. Let me see. We've got Brussels, [DP: We have sardines], Brussels sprouts, butternut squash, apples and spice, [SW: Smoked turkey] and smoked turkey. It's going to be delicious.

BARRY WILMORE: And so for all of us on the International Space Station.

ALL: Happy Thanksgiving!

CH: Is it going to be delicious? Astronauts Don Pettit, Nick Hague, Suni Williams, and Barry “Butch” Wilmore in space.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Refurbished Pacemakers, Former ICC Prosecutor, Christmas Tree Climate Change, Sweet Treat Wolves, Bad Swift Seats

Refurbished Pacemakers

Guest: Thomas Crawford

CH: Recycling is an environmental issue, but it can also be a medical issue. For example, if you need a pacemaker and you can't afford one, that is the issue that Dr. Thomas Crawford has taken on. For more than a decade. He's been overseeing a study called My Heart Your Heart, which evaluated the effectiveness of reconditioned pacemakers. And according to the preliminary results of the randomized clinical trial, which he presented this month at the American Heart Association Scientific Sessions, used pacemakers are just as safe and effective as new ones. The study monitored patients in South American and African countries who couldn't afford a device and received a second hand one from the program in the U.S. Dr. Thomas Crawford is a clinical professor of internal medicine in the Division of Cardiovascular Disease at the University of Michigan Medical School. We reached him in Ann Arbour, Michigan.

NK: Doctor, it was the partner of a patient who approached you and got you thinking about reusing pacemakers. What happened? What did they say?

THOMAS CRAWFORD: Well, the gentleman's wife was in her late 80s and she received the pacemaker because she clearly needed it. And unfortunately, she died for another reason within 2 or 3 months. And so when he brought the device back to us, he said my wife was very much into recycling. And I really hope that you can really use it in somebody else.

NK: And what did you say to that?

TC: We actually said that we didn't think we could use it because it's not legal in the United States to reuse a pacemaker. But it did get us thinking about whether we could use this device anywhere else.

NK: The U.S. food and Drug Administration, we should let our listeners know, the agency responsible for overseeing medical devices and products lists pacemakers as single use devices. The fact that the partner of this patient thought about this, you know, they're thinking maybe from a recycling aspect, but in terms of access to new pacemakers, paint a picture for our listeners. How difficult or easy is it to get one?

TC: Well, you know, in high income countries, even those that don't have comprehensive insurance coverage for all citizens, as in the United States, patients are still able to get pacemakers when they come to a hospital and they need one. Unfortunately, in many low and middle income countries. The expense of a pacemaker has to be borne by the family or the patient, and it has to be rendered before the procedure is done. And so that effectively denies many patients who have strong indication for pacing the ability to get a pacemaker.

NK: And it's a simple but life changing procedure and device generally right?

TC: Yes. So especially in the countries where we work, the most common indication for a pacemaker is what's known as a complete heart block, which is a condition in which the bottom chamber of the heart beats at about 30 beats per minute and does not rise appropriately with exercise. So these patients definitely experience shortness of breath, light-headedness, fainting spells and, you know, they just cannot be active with the heart rate of between 30 and 40 beats per minute.

NK: I want to ask you more, of course, about your research in the different countries and the patients you tried this with as part of your research. But going back to the rules in the United States, can you move forward with this push as long as that is on the books that this is a single use device?

TC: Yes. So correct. We did actually engage with the United States Food and Drug Administration at the beginning of this process. So they have jurisdiction over us reprocessing the pacemakers in the United States, even if they're intended for a patient overseas. And so they did allow us to reprocess the pacemakers and send them to the countries that expressly accepted that practice. So essentially, we have government letters from the recipient countries. We have FDA approval to ship them to those countries. So that is already in the works and for the countries that we have permits for. We're able to continue this practice.

NK: Is your goal ultimately to be able to use, do this in the United States as well or the need isn't the same...

TC: No. There are lots of patients. There's literally hundreds of thousands of patients in the world who are denied this therapy because they cannot afford it. And so I think that our efforts are best spent on raising enough funds to be able to send as many pacemakers as we can to countries where that is not available. I don't really see this as a practice that would be accepted in United States at any time in the future. Foreseeable future.

NK: So where do you get the used pacemakers from? How do they come to you? And then how do you prepare them for reuse?

TC: Most of the pacemakers come from funeral homes and crematories. When a deceased person is to undergo cremation, the device has to be taken out because of the risk of explosion should it be put in the crematory equipment. So we developed strong relationships with the funeral industry. Occasionally, individual patients or the families of the deceased sent their devices to us directly. And some hospitals have also been sending us devices that they harvest during device upgrades when somebody needs a more complicated pacemaker or defibrillator. And the device that they are explanting from the patient is in good condition and has at least five years of battery life remaining.

NK: Five years of battery life remaining is a crucial factor. So you did this in seven countries. Just under 300 patients received these pacemakers. Ultimately, what did your study find?

TC: Well, the study was designed to show noninferiority of the reconditioned pacemakers compared to new ones. So we're basically trying to demonstrate that the reconditioned pacemakers, when they are done in a proper fashion, will not have any greater risk of infection or malfunction as new devices. That essentially says that apart from the fact that reconditioned devices by definition have less battery life remaining, they at least have the 90 days of follow up, which is the preliminary results of the study. It shows that the devices do not have any greater risk of infection or malfunction.

NK: But what happens, you know, in these countries, if it's already difficult to get these pacemakers, what happens after that battery life ends?

TC: Well, so certainly the devices that we have offered to the patients in the study, most of them are expected to exceed seven years of longevity. And, you know, we're in it for the long haul. And so we foresee providing additional free, reconditioned devices in due time when patients need their next device.

NK: You know, on one hand. I hear what you're saying about the difficulty and impossibility for some people in some of these countries to get the simple device that can change their lives. But on the other hand, I wonder if there's a mental hurdle for some people to use, a used device, even if you're saying that they work very well. But also, why? You know, why should people in some countries have to use reused devices?

TC: That's certainly is an important ethical consideration. And there are obviously valid points on both sides of this argument. The World Health Organization, for example, believes that gifts that are not appropriate within the donor countries should not be sent to the recipient country. However, the use of a reconditioned pacemaker can really alter the patient's life, so we feel that providing them with a device is certainly of great benefit compared to not being able to do that at all.

NK: What happens next after this research? I mean, it's a relatively small sample. Are you going to be testing this further or expanding?

TC: So, number one the results that we presented at the American Heart Association meeting last week are preliminary, and the primary endpoint is actually set to be one year freedom from infection and a device malfunction of the secondary endpoint. So we will continue collecting follow up information on all of the patients in the study. We will also provide additional free devices for patients who need them and enroll those patients in the registry, which means that we will be able to track all the devices that we offer to patients in those countries for years to come.

NK: Dr. Crawford, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

TC: Thank you so much. It is my pleasure.

CH: Dr. Thomas Crawford is a clinical professor of cardiac electrophysiology who led a preliminary study on the use of reconditioned pacemakers. We reached him in Ann Arbour, Michigan.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Former ICC Prosecutor

CH: To some, the International Criminal Courts arrest warrants were overdue. To others, they seem like a gross injustice. Last week, the ICC issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant. Today, Israel said it would appeal those warrants. The court also issued a warrant for Mohammed Deif, the military commander of Hamas. And all these are ostensibly an exercise of the court's mandate since its inception in 2002 to hold world leaders to account for, quote, the gravest crimes of concern to the international community, unquote. As former ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda has explained, being part of the court comes with dangers of its own. Last night she gave a lecture in which she talked about some of the threats she faced while in office from 2012 to 2021.

SOUNDCLIP

FATOU BENSOUDA: As a prosecutor I tried my sincere and honest best with the courage of my conviction and at great personal cost and sacrifice, not to mention against the background of threats and all forms of pressures and intimidation, to execute my mandate independently, impartially and objectively. And apply the black letter of the law consistently without fear or favour. During my term we undertook our statute mandated responsibilities notwithstanding unprecedented pressures including direct threats to my person and my family and some of my closest professional advisers. In some of the toughest situations under the court's jurisdiction, such as the Afghanistan situation or the Israel-Palestine conflict. The unacceptable thug style tactics, threats, intimidation and even sanctions did not result in me or my office failing to fulfil our obligations under the Rome Statute. Or weaken our resolve and sincere devotion to the plight of victims and the international rule of law.

CH: That was former ICC chief prosecutor Fatou Bensouda speaking in London, England, last night.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Christmas Tree Climate Change

CH: In Quebec's eastern townships, Christmas trees are big business. Every year, hundreds of thousands of trees from farms in the region are cut down and shipped to sites across Canada and the northern U.S. to be sold. But unseasonable warmth is starting to create seasonal problems. Charles Vaillancourt is the president of Quebec's Provincial Association of Christmas Tree Growers. He owns and operates a wholesale tree farm near Stanstead. And he says climate change and rising temperatures are having a major impact on his business. He spoke to the CBC's Gordon Lambie about how he is adapting to combat that impact.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES VAILLANCOURT: We all do need some shade cloth nowadays. We need to find some space where, as we do have some chip wood underneath the trees, so this way it keeps the humidity in the them and you can feed it a little bit, the trees so that help to preserve them. But, you know, it's really small techniques. Waiting. We cut in the morning when it's cold. We wrapped in the afternoon and bring the trees in the lot here. Once the tree is wrapped, it can be tolerant to warm weather. Yeah.

GORDON LAMBIE: Okay. I feel like another one of the sort of aspects of warmth that people don't always think about is, is pests, is insects. Is that something that is a factor? Like, is there anything you have to do with the trees while they're growing?

CHARLES VAILLANCOURT: Absolutely. I mean, it's just like the apples and other kind of fruits or vegetables. Everybody just trying to get you know, when you see an apple, that's all polka dot with brown on it. You know, nobody wants to bring that apple back home. So it's a bit the same with the Christmas tree. They're all looking for the nicest Christmas trees. They don't want it a yellowish colour. They want that green, forest green colour. And this is what we're trying to produce. But, you know, it's a natural product, so we're trying to do our best to get it that way. And of course we're getting warmer winters, so a lot more pests coming from down south. You know that pest that we are not used to getting because usually our winters were stronger, more snow. So those pests they never came up here. And also with all of the temperature variation, that's very hard on us because, you know, right now is very warm. But sometimes in July we were going to get some late frost and that's very bad for the Christmas trees because if we get some spring, a spring frost, I mean and the buds are advance, they just burn down, then we're losing a year of growth. So this doesn't help us too much and we're getting some years that we don't get any water. You know, we've had a big drought in 2020 and 2021, if I'm not mistaken, or 2021 and 2022 the next two years after that rain, rain, rain all summer. So this put the trees in a shock state. And, you know, because of that, we get a lot of trees that dies, you know, and that's what's hard about the productions. Those trees are in the soil for 8 to 10 years. So that means you have 8 to 10 years to lose a tree.

CH: That was Charles Vaillancourt, the president of the Quebec Association of Christmas Tree Growers talking to Gordon Lambie.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Sweet Treat Wolves

Guest: Sandra Lai

CH: Generally speaking, there's one item on the menu for Ethiopian wolves, protein rich rodents, which are delicious but predictable, a little same-ie. So sometimes, like us a Wolf, just crave something a little sweeter. In a new study in the journal Ecology, a team of researchers writes that these wolves are also eating nectar from cone shaped flowers known as red hot pokers. And the wolves hankering for red hot pokers may be having an environmental impact. Sandra Lai is a senior scientist with the Ethiopian Wolf Conservation Program at the University of Oxford and the lead author of the paper. We reached her in Oxford, England.

NK: Sandra, this flower sounds delicious, but you've tasted it, as of others there, children in particular. What is it like?

SANDRA LAI: It tastes very, very sweet, sweet. I describe it as watered down honey, it's very sticky also, when you touch the flower, it gets all over your fingers.

NK: Understood. The photographs are so, they're just a joy to look out, look at the photographs in your study. These wolves certainly look like they're enjoying themselves. We should tell our listeners that they resemble a fox more than what they might be thinking of a wolf. Right.

SL: Well, it is true that the colour and the markings make them look like foxes, but they are closer to grey wolves than foxes. So it can be called like a wolf in fox markings.

NK: Understood. The flowers themselves describe what they look like.

SL: Well, the flower are a native flower to Ethiopia. It has a rosette close to the ground of leaves. And from the middle of the rosette there's a tall stalk that can be a metre, a metre and a half high. The flower is cone shaped. So at the top you have the little immature flowers that are red and they mature as the blooming season unfolds and they become more yellow and full of nectar. So the wolf's go to the flower and lick around the flowers at the bottom of the flower head. So they usually do it, they spend one minute and then move to another flower and so on.

NK: They get what they need and then keep going. Ethiopian wolves, as I understand it, have been observed doing this for years at this point. But for your study, you followed three packs in particular. And these packs live in areas where these flowers are just everywhere. So how often were they going in while the flowers are in bloom?

SL: Well, it's a behaviour that I think happens every year. For the paper we were very lucky, I think, because we could see wolves in the morning and in the afternoon every day for the four days we followed them. So I think they go everyday to get a little sweet treat.

NK: Just, I mean. But how many times in a day?

SL: I think not all of them would go like twice a day, but I think at least once a day for the packs that have a lot of flowers in their territory, I wouldn't be surprised that they go every day.

NK: And so does, did it suggest to you that some of these wolves have more of a sweet tooth than others?

SL: I think even within a pack, the same pack, some individuals are more attracted and nectar loving than others, a little bit like humans with some of us are more of a sweet tooth than others.

NK: Yes. Is this, though, about more than just liking a sweet treat or dessert after what they're usually eating, which is rodents, if I'm not mistaken? Or is this about nutrition, nutrition or just fun?

SL: I think for me, of having tasted the nectar, I think they get a little boost of energy from the sugar. I would say it's more for the taste than any nutrition, because I don't think they can get that much nectar from the flowers. But I think it's the same also for us when we go for the flowers.

NK: Yes. Listen, I understand the need for a sweet treat often more than once a day, I'd say. But that's another story. You also hypothesize that the wolves themselves could be having an environmental impact. How so?

SL: Well, as they forage for nectar, their muscle becomes covered with colon. And as I say, they go from flower to flower. So there is a possibility that they're able to pollinate these flowers. We haven't confirmed it yet but seeing how much pollen they can get on their muzzle wouldn't be surprised that they could actually pollinate them.

NK: In some cases, though, they're also taking bites out of the flowers, big ones. So ultimately, do you think this would be good news or bad news for these flowers?

SL: Well, of course, the flower damage is not a good thing. It's not all the wolves that end up biting, the flowers. From what we've seen, it's mainly the juveniles. Maybe when they're learning how to get to the nectar, I think because they can be more damaging than a bird or an insect. It might mean that as pollinators, the might not be as effective as other vectors.

NK: These are endangered wolves, fewer than 500 of them remaining. How do you think that this kind of research that you've done might help them?

SL: Well, I think for one, understanding their role in the ecosystem is important. What they need in terms of habitat, energy or the plant that is also and [inaudible] plant needs is one thing. I also hope that with the deeper, more awareness to the threats that they are facing might help with the conservation of these species.

NK: Why are they at such risk?

SL: Well, the two main problems are habitat loss, because Ethiopia is the second largest growing country in Africa. So there's a need to balance the need of the local communities and the wildlife. And the second problem is the transmission of disease by domestic dogs. That can be quite devastating when it gets into the wolf population.

NK: I mentioned earlier that it's a joy just to look at the still images that were part of your study. Was it, what was it like to watch it unfolding before your eyes?

SL: I think it's a very fun thing to observe. It really looks like a giant bee going across the flowers. So the picture, of course, are very beautiful because the wolf are red and white. The flowers, they are sunset coloured. The you can have like large fields of them. And I think it's really a fun sight to see.

NK: Sandra, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SL: Thank you very much.

CH: Sandra Lai is a senior scientist with the Ethiopian Wolf Conservation Program at the University of Oxford, and we reached her in Oxford.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Bad Swift Seats

CH: They'll be there to see Taylor Swift, but they won't be able to see Taylor Swift. As you may have heard, Ms. Swift's Era's tour is set to rap in Vancouver in about nine days’ time. And thanks to a new drop of tickets, more fans will get to be there, just not an up there where they'll be able to see the stage. Or if you prefer, the industry language, these are "obstructed view" tickets. But for Eme Naumann just being in the general vicinity is enough. The committed Swiftie was determined to find a way to take her grandmother to the show, and now she'll be able to. Thanks to some vigilance, some luck and 15 bucks each. Here's Ms. Naumann speaking to the CBC's Maurice Katz.

SOUNDCLIP

EME NAUMANN: We're sitting not quite behind the stage, but almost. But we are in the building and overjoyed to just be able to hear it, if nothing else.

MAURICE KATZ: How did it feel when you saw you're in the queue and suddenly popped up to say like, you can buy it?

EME NAUMANN: I mean, it's like a crazy adrenaline rush. I somehow managed to be 65th in line, like I've never gotten into a Ticketmaster queue and been lower than like 3000. So I was really lucky. And then you get in and it's just like a free for all. You're not even looking at where seats are. You're just clicking on like the first thing you can, hoping to get in the first like 4 or 5 sets of tickets I clicked on had already been purchased by someone else. So you're just like scrolling through the list hoping something sticks. And eventually I was able to get through and get a pair. Even if you can't see anything, you're still going to hear. You're still going to be able to dance. Trade bracelets and the atmosphere at her concerts is just such a positive and welcoming space. Just even being able to experience that, I'm excited for my grandma to get to be in that. She's really excited. Brought her to tears last night when I told her the news.

MAURICE KATZ: That's amazing. [EN: Yeah.] Does it feel like a little bit of vengeance to be able to get into the stadium for 15 dollars when people are selling them for like upwards of 10, 15 thousand dollars in some places?

EME NAUMANN: I wouldn't say it's a vengeance. I feel like for me, it's a bit of survivor's guilt in a way of like I know there's people who really want to be there and who are going to end up paying those extreme prices. And so you almost feel a bit bad being able to get in for less than, frankly, a burger would cost at many places. So I'm grateful to have that opportunity. And of course, it's nice, but you already see tickets from yesterday's drop on reseller sites for like over 18 hundred dollars with zero view. So clearly the scalpers were still getting in, which is definitely a bummer. But I guess lucky to be one of the few who was able to get in and actually wants to go.

CH: There were Swiftie Eme Naumann speaking with CBC Vancouver about nabbing behind the stage tickets to see Taylor Swift.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

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The AIH Transcript For November 27, 2024

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