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The AIH Transcript for November 26, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: The money won't be where his mouth is. Donald Trump's threat of a 25 per cent tariff on all Canadian goods sounds alarming, but Canada's former deputy prime minister says we don't need to panic yet.

CH: Pause for celebration. Israel has greenlit a cease fire agreement with Hezbollah in a former U.S. Middle East negotiator welcomes that move but says it's more transactional than transformative.

NK: Digging in. The mine in Crowsnest Pass, Alberta was shuttered decades ago, but yesterday that small community voted in favour of a new coal project. One rancher tells us he won't take yes for an answer.

CH: Curtain call. Edmonton's Theatre Community mourns actor Julien Arnold, who died during a performance on the weekend. One of his playwright friends tells us why it was such a joy to put words in Mr. Arnold's mouth.

NK: The wounds were selfie-inflicted. A bear cub who was harassed by phone wielding humans last spring is finally back in the wild, thanks to a better group of humans, that includes our guest.

CH: And the little sneaker and the little sneakers. Police unmask the thief that kept stealing shoes from a Japanese kindergarten. And you'll never guess it was a weasel. Oh wait, nuts. I mean, you'll never guess what it was. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that believes the shoes should not have been so weaselly, accessible.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: U.S. Tariffs Politics, Crowsnest Coal Project, Selfie Bear Released, Cubby Shoe Thefts

U.S. Tariffs Politics

Guest: John Manley

CH: Donald Trump is back and so are his threats. And this time they're bigger than ever. As you've heard on the news, the U.S. president-elect is threatening a 25 per cent tariff on all products from Canada and Mexico, starting on his first day in office. And he says those hefty tariffs will continue until the flow of drugs, particularly fentanyl and irregular border crossings, into the U.S. stop. Last year, irregular crossings from the Canadian side amounted to barely 1% of the total number. The news is prompting reaction from officials across Canada, including this from Ontario Premier Doug Ford.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: I found his comments unfair. I found them insulting. It's like a family member stabbing you right in the heart. I spent a lot of time in the U.S. and I have yet to talk to one American that has any issue with Canadians. We see drugs flow from Mexico coming up through California in through B.C., into Alberta, into Ontario. And what we need to do is take that threat seriously. I had a conversation with the Prime Minister after he spoke to President-elect Trump last night. The threat is serious.

CH: John Manley is the former deputy prime minister of Canada. We reached him in Rideau Lakes, Ontario.

NK: John Manley, that description from Doug Ford, like a family member stabbing you in the heart, as he put it. Does that feel like an apt description from where you sit?

JOHN MANLEY: Well, I understand exactly where Doug Ford is coming from, and I'm very sympathetic with it. I think that we need to, if you like, stay calm and carry on at this point. We know a few things about Donald Trump. We've seen him in action. We know that he tends to have, you know, exhibited a lot of bluster. He'll say things and push the envelope as hard as he can. And then very often, when all is said and done, he backs down. So I think we need to have our own strategy about how we're going to deal with him and for sure take it seriously, for sure and take his threats seriously. But let's figure out how we're going to respond to them.

NK: I want to ask you more about how to respond to in just a moment. But is this timing, is the timing of this a tactic, in your view, or truth?

JM: The timing of when he would come out with a comment like this is not I don't think it's ever very tactical with him. I think he; I think he tends to blurt out whatever's on his mind and on social media. And so I wouldn't take it that way. I think it's a little bit fortuitous for us because if he is actually thinking these things, it's good that we've got, you know, almost two months to be prepared. How we use that time is up to us. So we need to get on with it.

NK: Is what you heard from Doug Ford there, the right way to approach this incoming administration?

JM: A. I'm not a fan. B. I've never met the man, but I know lots of people who have. And the advice is generally you've got to cater to his ego. You've got to, you've got to praise him. You've got to sweet talk him. You've got to you know, there's no point saying what you say is wrong because that'll just make him dig in. So I think the Prime Minister could not use that tone directly with the president-elect. I think he's going to have to take the concerns seriously and, you know, some time before January 20th come back with a description of what we've done in response to his you know, if... I can hardly say it very timely and helpful warning.

NK: I know you said you don't think that this was a tactical move and just maybe blurting out what he was thinking at the time. But why would he say this now and jump from a potential 10 per cent to 25 and bring in the issue of cross-border drugs. How does that serve Donald Trump now?

JM: Well, he's playing to his own audience. And I think Canada might have been a bit of an afterthought in this. I think he was really directing it at the Mexicans. Doug Ford pointed out most of the fentanyl was coming, you know, north into Canada. And by the way, we could mention that most firearms offences committed in Canada occur with guns that were acquired in the United States. They were acquired there legally and used here illegally. So, you know, I think Doug Ford was appropriate to saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, We're the ones that have a problem here. And by the way, this weaponization of tariffs has got nothing to do with making us all more secure. In fact, it has, likely going to have the opposite effect of making us less secure economically.

NK: The Industry Minister, François-Philippe Champagne was on our program just after the U.S. election results came in. You know, on election day, if I recall correctly. The government has been saying here in Canada that they've been working with the Trump team even before election day, laying the groundwork that the relationship is going to be great. Mr. Champagne tried to downplay any fears, saying you should be calm. The Canada has an indispensable relationship with the United States. Do you think that matters any more, though, that long standing very close and as he put it, indispensable relationship?

JM: Well, I think we have something to build on. I certainly believe that building the relationships with the Trump team is important. So we know a couple of key people in this already have been named. Susie Wiles is somebody most Canadians have never heard of. She will be Donald Trump's chief of staff. Katie Telford ought to have already been in touch with her. Probably has. Pete Hoekstra, a former congressman from Michigan, has been designated as the next ambassador to Canada. That's somebody that we should be talking to. Let's face it, he doesn't want to land in Ottawa on January 21st with a 25 per cent tariff regime in place. And, you know, that's the skunk at a garden party for a diplomat. So I think we have some levers that we need to pull. But let's face it, if you ask me, I'd rather be spending 6 billion on improving our border security right now rather than giving out checks to everybody across the country. We've got to get our priorities sorted out.

NK: Doug Ford has said Canada has no choice but to retaliate. Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Fury is suggesting diplomacy instead. We know there's an emergency first ministers meeting, you know, set for tomorrow. There will be interesting discussions on that line, I'm sure. But when you talk about how to approach Donald Trump, you know, playing nice, maybe stroking his ego, is that something you could stomach if you were still in office?

JM: [chuckles] You know, even... Donald Trump makes George W. Bush look like a great statesman, I have to say. We think back to the, you know, the golden days when we could talk as adults to one another. It's more challenging. There's no doubt about it, Nil. But that's, the United States has a democracy and that's who they've chosen. And, you know, if we can't roll over, I mean, I think the initial approach has to be, you know, conciliatory. We have a game, you know, a game plan for this sort of thing. We used at the last Trump administration when unfair tariffs were imposed on Canadian steel and aluminium and will undoubtedly get it out. And it usually features targeted tariffs against goods that are coming out of predominantly red states. So I mean, my favourite example is, is Bourbon, which generally comes from Kentucky and Tennessee. You know, if you like bourbon, go get some because after January 20th, it may be pretty expensive. So we've got to find ways to make this work. And one of the things we have to make sure we're doing is mattering in Washington, and that's not easy in a noisy world.

NK: John Manley, I thank you for your time.

JM: My pleasure. Thank you.

CH: John Manley is Canada's former deputy prime minister. He's in Rideau Lakes, Ontario.

[Music: Chimes instrumental]

Crowsnest Coal Project

Guest: John Smith

CH: For years, the community of Crowsnest Pass, Alberta, has been divided over a big question, should they bring coal back into town? Although last night it became clear that the municipality is less divided than it seemed, voters made the trek through heavy snow to cast their ballots, and 72 per cent of them said yes. In a non-binding local vote to allow an Australian company called Northback to start exploration on Grassy Mountain, a local coal mine that's been dormant for decades. John Smith is a rancher who lives an hour and a half away in Nanton, Alberta. And he's worried about what this could mean for farms like his. We reached him in Nanton.

NK: John, you've seen the results of this vote. It was not a close one. 72 per cent of eligible voters are in favour of this project. What is your message to your neighbours in Crowsnest Pass?

JOHN SMITH: You know, that's fair. They can have a referendum and vote on it. But I guess my comment would be is, you know, it was 72 per cent, roughly 1950 people voted in favour of it. And I'm not sure how that's relevant that those people get to decide the fate of a watershed. And the people that are down below that are using that water and relying on it.

NK: What are you worried this will mean for that region and for your farm?

JS: Well, what I'm worried about is like the future of agriculture in southern Alberta. You know, for instance, there's 12 hundred businesses in the Lethbridge, just in the Lethbridge area that service the agriculture industry. There's 120 food processors. That's everything from cattle processing to French fries, canola grain, all the rest of it.

NK: Canadian Press spoke to some of the folks there, you know, who voted for this. And, you know, it's about money. For them, it's financial. You know, they say they need the jobs and the economic boost by what this, a project like this could bring. So for those who see opportunity and a future, what would you say to them?

JS: The data that we've looked at like on different mining projects is the coal companies have a tendency to over promise and under deliver. You know, my wife and I and several of us, we know lots of people that work out Sparwood and those people don't live in the community of Sparwood or Elkford. They commute because they don't want to live in a coal town. So I think the overall impacts are being exaggerated. When it went through the regulatory process the first time, not only did it not meet the environmental standards of being in the public interest, but economically it was deemed not to be in the public interest also, you know, to the people that voted against it. We really did feel they had kind of a brighter, brighter vision for what the Crowsnest Pass could be. And it was too bad that more people didn't, you know, look at the alternatives.

NK: You sound weary.

JS: [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah. It's been a 4 or 5 year fight of trying to prevent these coal mines from, you know, taking over eastern slopes. You know, obviously, we're really concerned about the watershed, like the water is the number one thing. But, you know, there's also disappearing grasslands. Your impact just isn't on the mine site, it reaches out beyond that. And, you know, that's not us exaggerating or making that up. There's actually a lake called Window Mountain Lake that's in Alberta, just north of the Crowsnest Pass. And it's been found to be contaminated from the mines in B.C. So that stuff is blowing over the, over well, 1 or 2 ranges of mountains and depositing into this lake.

NK: Grassy Mountain is already an abandoned mine, as you well know. It's been sitting like that for decades. So it's not necessarily that section is not pristine wilderness. This Australian company is promising if the project goes through, they'll clean up and restore the site. I hear what you were saying earlier about over promising and under-delivering in your view. But if there is going to be a mine, is this area not perhaps the logical place to put one?

JS: I would say no, actually. Like I've actually been there. You know, the area was starting to re-veg or revegetate, heal itself, albeit slowly. So I'm not confident at all that company is going to fulfil their promises, like the company that was there before. They obviously didn't fulfil their promises. You know, this is a little bit of a black iron industry. I mean, it's a different industry, but we can look at the orphaned wells situation. It's going to be the Alberta taxpayer and possibly the Canadian taxpayer that ended up on the hook paying for this.

NK: It's a non-binding vote. Just to let our listeners know, there are regulatory hurdles that would have to come next and be jumped next. Does that give you hope from where you sit that that despite the results of this vote, this won't happen? Or do you feel that the large show of support from people there means that this is going to, it's going to go through all of those hurdles and become a reality?

JS: No, I don't think it will be, actually, because like we said before, it was like I think something [inaudible] people that voted in favour of it. You know, in the previous polling that we've seen, it was poll after poll, Albertans were 75 to 80 per cent opposed to the project to any coal mining in the eastern slopes. So it doesn't hold any water for me.

NK: It doesn't hold any water for you. But do you think with this provincial government that there'll be a push to make this happen?

JS: I'm sure there'll be a push.

NK: But you don't think it will actually happen is what you're saying?

JS: No. Well, I don't know. I never say never. Like, I don't think that we can sit idly by as Albertans or ourselves and wait for the provincial government or the AER to make the decision. I think, you know, as Albertans, we need to make the government aware again. I'll say that again strongly again, that we are not in favour of this.

NK: And you're in the midst of your own legal fight with the province, we should mention, over its coal policies and what you've called a lack of transparency. You're, it sounds like you're in this fight for a while.

JS: Yeah. Yeah. We sued. We sued the Alberta government for a lack of consultation. And what we were trying to understand is it's not about money, as we were trying to understand how the decisions were made and who made them. And, you know, and it's just not our animals. It's everybody that farms and ranches in the south country that, you know, uses that water is adjacent to these proposed mine. So.

NK: John, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

JS: Yes. Thank you so much for your time and interest. It was a pleasure speaking to you.

CH: John Smith owns Plateau Cattle Company with his wife. We reached him in Nanton, Alberta.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Selfie Bear Released

Guest: Ashley Hobbs

CH: "Don't approach bears" is such obvious advice you'd think it would not need repeating. But officials in North Carolina did have to repeat it loudly after an incident earlier this year. In April, a group of people in Asheville spotted a pair of bear cubs in a nearby tree. Instead of giving them space, they tried to handle them and posing with the cubs for photos. A bystander taped that interaction, which subsequently went viral.

SOUNDCLIP

BYSTANDERS: That's 100 per cent what she's doing. She's taking pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Did she just drop it? Oh my gosh. It's running the poor little thing [It wants to get back to its brother or sister]. [cross talk] Put it back!

CH: In the time since that video was captured, one of the frightened cubs spent months in rehabilitation with wildlife professionals, and now she has finally been released back into the wild. Ashley Hobbs is a biologist with the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission. We reached her in Asheville, North Carolina.

NK: Ashley, you have been tracking this cub since she was released back into the wild. How is she doing?

ASHLEY HOBBS: Doing as you would expect any rehabbed cub to do once they get back in the wild, just kind of getting their bearings in this new setting. We do expect it to go on to do things like find a denning spot for the winter and really to follow its instincts and be just like any other wild bear.

NK: When you saw that video, our listeners just heard a little bit of it. I mean, it's hard not to be speechless watching that. What did you think?

AH: Yeah. I think it's kind of a classic case of what not to do. You know, never touch wildlife, never approach wildlife, give wildlife space. So it's always a good rule of thumb. [NK: Yeah]. I think it was a really good lesson for folks to learn and to see the repercussions of, you know, interfering with wild animals and nature itself.

NK: Were you horrified when you saw it? Is that the right word?

AH: I don't know that I was horrified. There's very little that surprises me these days [NK: Fair]. But definitely, you know, I was disappointed. You hate to see these sorts of interactions between humans and wildlife, and there's much more respectful ways to, you know, engage with wildlife around your community and in your backyard. And this was definitely what not to do. Yeah. It's about half a dozen people, young people, but also adults, which was interesting for me to see. And they're not just trying to take a picture or in awe of these cubs in the in the trees. They're picking them up. In one case, dropping them [AH: Right]. I mean, it goes on and on. And the people who recorded the video are certainly shocked and maybe even horrified. But you were called in. Where did you find the bear?

AH: Yes so, we found it in that same area just off screen from the video. And what that shows is a little retention pond. One of our enforcement officers beat me to the location and was able to get the cub out of the little pond that's down there. So when I arrived, basically they handed the cub to me and I got it off to the rehab facility.

NK: And what was it like? You know, what condition was it in when you found it?

AH: It was definitely shivering, probably because it was wet. Very scared, as most bear cubs are when they're in those sorts of situations. But otherwise it looked to be in good health. I just moved as quickly as I could to get it in hands of people who are much more educated than I am on helping these sorts of animals out.

NK: And how long has that recovery been? What kinds of things did they have to make sure were happening and done before it could be released back into the wild?

AH: Yeah. So the rehab process in this case at least, was mostly just caring for that animal, providing all the support and the nutrition and the warmth and shelter and all those good things. When we're looking to release Cubs, we are looking for them to be of the appropriate age. So usually 9 to 10 months is where we aim. We're also looking at their temperament as well. We don't want to release a bear cub into the wild that has become reliant on humans or that sees humans as a source of comfort, so to speak.

NK: There are two cubs in the video. What happened to the other one?

AH: Yeah, we're not sure. So we see in that video that one of the cubs runs off. And since that moment, we haven't been able to locate that cub. We did keep an eye out for several weeks for both that cub and the mother of these two cubs. But none were ever identified back in that apartment complex. So we don't really know the outcomes.

NK: And I wanted to ask where, you know, why were these two cubs alone or usually it's a safety issue for the humans generally. You know, if there if there are cubs around, there's probably a mama bear nearby, too.

AH: Yes. Generally speaking, around that time, that spring time of year, you know, the cubs are still small. So it's not uncommon for female bears to stash their cub in a tree or some other safe spot and then come back for her cubs at a later time. Seems like that was the case here.

NK: We talked about the impact on the cub itself. What about consequences or impacts. Has there been any for the people caught on this tape?

AH: Yes, I did go and I spoke with them personally. I let them know the repercussions of their actions in terms of any sort of legal repercussions at the state level at least, there wasn't anything that we could charge them with that would fit what happened in this instance. So our enforcement, our enforcement division decided to not pursue charges. However, we did discuss the repercussions. We did explain why it's dangerous for everybody involved. And we had that whole conversation with the folks that, at least some of the folks you see in the video.

NK: What did they say to you?

AH: They were remorseful. They were thankful that mom was not around as well. And I like to think that, you know, it won't happen in the future.

NK: Ashley, thank you for your time.

AH: Absolutely.

CH: Ashley Hobbs is a biologist with the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission. We reached her in Asheville, North Carolina.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Cubby Shoe Thefts

CH: Now it's time for a true crime mystery in which you must identify the perpetrator based on the clues. So listen closely if you dare to this classic 'whatdunit'.

[Music: AIH 'Whatdunit' theme]

CH: The music was supposed to be eerier anyway. When he arrived at the kindergarten in Koga, Japan, the grizzled detective blanched at the scene of horror. "Only an animal would do something like this", he rasped to the principal who was there, then tearing his eyes away from the carnage. He asked her, "How could this have happened? How? How did all these shoes get scattered around?". "We don't know", the principal said as a weasel ran by holding a shoe. "Our janitor arrived to see little children's shoes strewn everywhere on November 6th, and since then, a total of 22 shoes have been taken from the cubby-holes near the door". "Where's the janitor now", the detective growled urgently. "He went home early". The principal said. In the background the weasel from before ran by holding a different shoe. "I'd like to see the video footage", the detective barked gruffly. And when he did, he immediately fingered the culprit. It's time to solve the 'whatdunit'.

[Music: 'whatdunit' theme 2]

CH: That was a lot worse. Come on. Now, sorry. If you were listening very closely, you have surmised that the culprit in that true story was the weasel. After the thefts, Japanese police set up security cameras at the kindergarten. And when they checked the footage, they saw the weasel running off with a shoe in its mouth. The police deputy told the Washington Post, "I believe the weasel was simply bringing the shoes back to its nest to keep warm. Now that it's getting cold", well, case closed then. But for one chilling detail, the weasel remains at large.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Part 2: Israel/Hezbollah Ceasefire, Julien Arnold Obit., Bullfighter Retires, Gnome Thief

Israel/Hezbollah Ceasefire

Guest: Aaron David Miller

CH: Today, Israel subjected Beirut and its southern suburbs to airstrikes, and Hezbollah fired dozens of projectiles into Israel. But despite those attacks, Israel and Hezbollah appear to be on the cusp of a cease fire. U.S. President Joe Biden has announced a deal that would see Israel and Hezbollah suspend fighting and withdraw from southern Lebanon.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE BIDEN: Today, I have some good news to report from the Middle East, effective at 4 a.m. tomorrow local time. The fighting across the Lebanese-Israeli border will end. Will end. This is designed to be a permanent cessation of hostilities.

CH: The deal was brokered by the U.S. and France. It could also see tens of thousands of Lebanese and Israeli residents of the region return home. Aaron David Miller is a former U.S. State Department Middle East negotiator and currently a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's in Washington, D.C.

NK: Aaron David Miller, do you share President Biden's optimism?

AARON DAVID MILLER: You can answer that question in about 30 days. You've got a 60 day implementation period for this agreement. And if I was pressed, I would say it probably will hold because Israel wanted it and Hezbollah needs it. And based on my experience in negotiations, the thing that matters most in closing any deal is urgency. That is to say, the incentives of doing a deal outweigh the disincentives of not doing it. And I think Hezbollah is hurting. I think the Iranians want a pause in order to begin rebuilding every army. I think on the Israeli side, Israel has got a small standing army, mostly reserves do the fighting. Those reservists are exhausted and hard pressed. And the prime minister needs to make a serious effort to return the 70 thousand plus Israelis who have been [inaudible] from the border.

NK: You know, you said earlier, in your view, this is a, quote, a transaction, not a transformation, unquote. What do you mean by that?

ADM: I mean that Israel and Hezbollah are going to remain mortal enemies. I mean, that the Israelis will keep an eye on weapons deliveries from Iran through Syria into Lebanon. I suspect if they consider that they are increasing in frequency, they will request from the United States permission to attack them. And I think that Hezbollah will also want to test to make sure that they haven't given up their role as a, quote, "resistance organization". So I think there are vulnerabilities in this agreement. The Lebanese armed forces are going to be deployed to the south. Will they confront Hezbollah, given the sectarian challenges that are posed by the Lebanese political system? I doubt it. And how much liberty and license will the Israelis take in terms of consulting striking first and asking questions later if, in fact, they perceive that there are violations. But again, both have a stake perhaps, in handing out the violation hiccups and seeing this through.

NK: And that answers, in your view, from what I'm hearing from you, the why of this, why now for this deal, that urgency?

ADM: Yeah. I mean, I think the why is that over the course of the last year, Israeli defence forces are exhausted. And I think Netanyahu understands the pressure that he's gotten from the IDF. They do want to focus their attention on Gaza. And this raises the question, of course, of whether or not this deal will have any impact on freeing the hostages and creating a better situation for [inaudible] million Palestinians who are basically caught up in a humanitarian catastrophe. That's a difficult question to answer, I think, because for the same reasons Netanyahu could do this deal, it seems to me he's going to be hard pressed to do the Gaza deal. [NK: Why?] It would involve large numbers of free Palestinian prisoners who either have been charged or convicted of killing Israelis. Hamas will want a cessation of the war. And I don't think that the prime minister or the two extremist minister's on whom he depends are willing to make those choices and decisions.

NK: There's certainly urgency in that war as well, though. And similar fatigue, huge humanitarian crisis as you've said. So why wouldn't we see a similar result?

ADM: Because I think for Mr. Netanyahu, the organizing principle of his world is maintaining himself in power. He's due to testify in his ongoing bribery, fraud, breach of trust trial in several weeks if he loses power and if the coalition craters and it might over a Gaza deal, it really might, he's going to be left with two unpalatable choices the possibility of a conviction or cutting a plea agreement, which would drive him out of politics and end his political career. So it's, yes, Gaza in many respects is more urgent, the suffering there is more profound. Millions of Palestinians and hostages and their families. But there is no urgency on the part of Mr. Netanyahu when it comes to making very tough political decisions.

NK: What do you think the United States and others did or said or pushed for to get to this moment?

ADM: This is all about timing. This deal couldn't have happened six months ago. It couldn't have happened within weeks of Hezbollah's attack on Israel on October 8th. You're dealing with a conflict that is showing signs of exhaustion. And for whom the two major combatants now see clear opportunities for any number of reasons on the part of each to de-escalate. And the same sense of urgency, even though it affects hostage families and Palestinians who are suffering, does not affect the decision makers. Hamas, ensconced in tunnels somewhere after the death of Yahya Sinwar, his brother Mohamad seems to be the key inside decision maker. And it certainly hasn't impacted or affected Benjamin Netanyahu's calculation.

NK: So before you exhale, what are the markers and the moments you're looking for?

ADM: I think you have to look for two things. Number one, the Lebanese military deploying in the south. Are they going to live up to expectations and actually function in order to pre-empt or prevent violations by Hezbollah. And if they don't, is what the Israelis are going to undertake going to be deal breaking? And will the monitoring committee composed of France, the United States, the U.N., Lebanon and Israel, will that monitoring committee prove effective? And then, of course, within 60 days, less than 60 days, you're going to have a new President of the United States. Is that president going to devote the kind of attention that the Biden administration did in an effort to pursue this sort of diplomacy? So a lot of uncertainties. But again, I'll fall back on what I think the key is, and that is Israel wanted it and Hezbollah needed it. There's a 60 day implementation period. I think you'll know within the next several weeks whether or not this deal is going to have the kind of traction and confidence of all of the parties, even with all of its imperfections, that will make it endure. But remember, this is the Arab-Israeli conflict, and nobody ever lost money betting against peace agreements.

NK: Aaron David Miller, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ADM: Yes, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

CH: Aaron David Miller is a former U.S. State Department Middle East negotiator. He's currently a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Classical instrumental]

Julien Arnold Obit.

Guest: Stewart Lemoine

CH: Theatre fans in Edmonton and across Canada are paying tribute to veteran actor Julien Arnold, who died suddenly on Sunday during a performance of A Christmas Carol at the Citadel Theatre. He was playing the roles of Jacob Marley and Mr. Fezziwig. He was 59 years old. Mr. Arnold was always working, from his time as a theatre student at the University of Alberta to annual summer productions of Shakespeare in the Park. Playwright Stewart Lemoine met Julien Arnold when he was a student in the late '80s and worked with him throughout his life. We reached Mr. Lemoine in Edmonton.

NK: Stewart, I suspect it is a difficult week for a lot of people and in a close knit theatre community. How are you dealing with things?

STEWART LEMOINE: Well, I found, you know, the challenge yesterday was just to believe it. And then I started having conversations with people. Just people would phone or I would phone them and we would talk. And it was impossible to be really sad completely because the memories are immediately so full of joy. And, you know, just it was, just wonderful. And everything he did was so rewarding and fun and, you know, if you remember that, it's just, it feels so positive in a way. So it really mitigates the other feelings.

NK: Yeah. That says a lot about your theatre community there, but about Julien Arnold himself. When you think back as you shared those memories and those stories, what do you remember about the first time you met?

SL: Well, I met him when he was in university. In the BFA program at the University of Alberta, and that would have been very late '80s. And I hired him for a show immediately, like in his first year out of school. Did that show. And then within, you know, 3 or 4 years, he'd probably done 5 or 6 more with me and was such a valuable part of our troupe. Again, the positivity was amazing and the willingness to just try, just about anything, you know, to write for an actor who's capable of so much and to know he can do exactly what you want or, or you can undertake it as an experiment to see what you both can try together that's new. [NK: Yeah], it was just all that kind of flexibility.

NK: We want to play for you and our listeners a clip of Julien Arnold talking with Global News about a production that Teatro Live, your theatre company produced. Just in October, "The Woman in Black". Let's listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIEN ARNOLD: It's pretty intense, like when you're, when you're on stage the whole time. Usually you get a little breaks and you run off stage and have a drink of water and catch your breath. But once you've started this play. You're on a roll. And the cool thing is all the different characters. So I'll play that old fellow who talks like that. And one from northern England who talks like that. So it's like really keeping track of all the different characters and all the accents that they have in England. You know, they have so many different accents.

NK: I've never seen him perform. I certainly didn't know him, but I got a very good sense of him just in those few moments.

SL: Yeah, That was just thrilling. He was always acting. Yeah, I mean, that's the sort of thing that he thrived on was, you know, challenged like that of playing multiple characters and really nailing those accents. That was just his specialty. But if I can say, I think, you know what, another thing that attracted me to him was just his skill with language and words and that, you know, it's a great gift for a playwright. And just the way everything he did was the foundation of it was such a thorough knowledge of the words and the phrases and the sentences and the paragraphs and how it all went together. And then, you know, the sound of breathing. And those are the things that make a really great theatre actor, which is what he primarily was. And one other thing I, you know, remember, it was a friend who was not particularly conversant in Shakespeare and also found the language a bit challenging, saying when that guy is talking, it just feels normal. It's like English, you know.

NK: He loved Shakespeare. He had a Shakespeare festival as well that he co-founded.

SL: He was part of the founding members of the Freewill Festival here.

NK: What did he tell you about what he loved about performing Shakespeare?

SL: I think he, you know, once you can get past the language, once you have the technique to just do that and then do it like a living, breathing human who's just talking, then I think you enter into the world of those amazing stories, you know, and there's just a level of comfort within that, that just lifts the experience for everybody. And so, you know, that's always the thing with actors, you just kind of go, what are we here for, we're storytellers. And everybody is there to teach the audience the play and what the play is about and how it goes. And he was just, you know, he always understood his material so well that he could teach easily.

NK: Was he a mentor to other actors as well?

SL: I think everybody thought that, you know, not even just in terms of telling them how to do it but making them absolutely comfortable as a colleague and valuing the opinions of the newest and youngest people as much as the veterans. I think it's quite amazing that people who maybe met Julien in the last two years probably knew him as well as fully as people who've known him for 30 years, because he was just so you know, he just embraced the new people.

NK: The Citadel Theatre is dedicating the rest of its season to Julien. There's a fundraiser to help his wife that's already passed, surpassed its goal. [SL: Yeah]. What do you think he would make of all this attention and love?

SL: I think he would love it, but he wouldn't want to talk about it very long. He'd just want to talk to other people again, you know. He wasn't in it for the attention. But I think, you know, everybody wants to know they're loved at some level. And, you know, I think it's great. I mean, it's just an amazing [inaudible] he's provoking the positive even from the beyond.

NK: Yeah. You were really close collaborators. So what will you miss most about him?

SL: Just, you know, not just working with him, but seeing him on stage, seeing him at the grocery store. You know, that just... We hadn't worked together a lot lately, but, you know, and even when he would just come to a show, it would just be an immediate catch up with somebody you knew extremely well. And so, you know, you just sort of feel the absence of that over time and think.

NK: Yeah. Well, Stuart, my condolences. I do appreciate your time.

SL: Absolutely. I'm glad you're doing this. It's nice to be included. I mean, for Edmonton. So thank you.

CH: Stewart Lemoine is a playwright. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Bullfighter Retires

CH: Bull riding is scary, but bullfighting might be scarier when bull riders inevitably get tossed violently off the backs of the gigantic upset animals that want them off at any cost. It is the bull fighters job to distract the bull long enough for the rider to get to safety. 27 year old Cody Call has been a bull fighter for the last nine years, and understandably, he's ready to retire.

SOUNDCLIP

CODY CALL: It is our job to step between whatever hole there might be, whether it's 6 feet or 6 inches. Our job is to put our butt between the bulls head and the cowboy and assure that the cowboy has a good chance to exit the arena safely. Kinda ended up in this situation where I ended up in the arena fighting bulls and I was so scared but the first time one chase me. I'll tell you what. I don't know if there's any other rush like that in the world. And I never looked back.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Now, you, Cody, you've had some pretty massive injuries. Tell me about some of the bigger ones.

CODY CALL: You know, I've had both my knees fixed and I've had my full shoulder rebuilt and I've had my face rebuilt. Ribs, hands, feet, ankles. They've all been fixed or broken and or torn. And it's just part of the job. When, you kind of sign up for it, you know, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and how bad. It's kind of more about what your mindset is around it. Are you, is this going to break you or are you going to step back into the arena scared or is this going to, are you going to learn from this so that way you can hopefully prevent it in the future. We witnessed in rodeo in the last decade or so a real kind of come to Jesus moment on mental health and concussions and how they affect your long term health and, you know, basically like quality of life. Rodeo is a very it's a sport with no guaranteed income. Right. Like to if you want to make money, if you want to survive, unless you're kind of on the contract side of rodeo, you have to show up and compete. And that leads to a lot of cowboys and cowgirls competing with injuries, you know, maybe possibly using substances to help get them through those injuries. But unfortunately, especially in bull riding, a lot of those injuries are head contact injuries or concussion related injuries due to G-force or whip of the neck. And, you know, I've had a lot. I actually do not have a hard count on how many I've had concussion wise and you know, everything that I wanted to prove or wanted to do, I've done. I've proven it. I've taken my beatings. I have the respect of my peers and my cowboys, and that's all I need.

CH: That was Cody Call speaking with Shelley Joyce, host of Daybreak Kamloops this morning.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Gnome Thief

CH: For almost 50 years. Arthur's conscience tortured him. You could say he lived life with gnome regrets. You see, in 1977, at the age of 15, Arthur was the mastermind behind one of the UK's great unsolved mysteries. With help from his five year old brother, he kidnapped garden gnomes from his neighbours in the sleepy seaside town of Formby. 273km northeast of Reading. When no one ponied up the 25 pence they demanded as ransom. The brothers quietly returned the gnomes to their homes, but they were never caught. And local news reports described Arthur as 'The Phantom Gnome Snatcher of Formby'. The incident even made news across the country when it was reported on the TV show Nationwide.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: To this day, these evil crimes remain unsolved. The best efforts of the undercover squad have failed to find a villain.

CH: Yesterday, BBC Radio 2 host Vernon Kay replayed that news report, which prompted Arthur himself to call into the show today to confess.

SOUNDCLIP

VERNON KAY: Arthur, is it true? Were you behind the Formby Gnome kidnappings of 1977?

ARTHUR: I'm afraid to say that is true.

VERNON KAY: [laughter] What possessed you to do this? How did it come about?

ARTHUR: I, don't know what, I still can't remember what made me do it. I just remember walking past a garden that had a gnome in it and looking and thinking, what's that gnome for? Why do people have gnomes? And then it just grew out of that. And I sat down and we went out that evening and looked around the neighbourhood and found at least a dozen gardens with gnomes in. And the next night we went out and collected them, so, so to speak. And then we, we crafted some fairly amateurish ransom notes. And then the local paper, which comes out weekly the next day, had a column in it that said, you know, police are investigating gnome abductions and demanding money with menaces and Formby CI are investigating and they always seem to investigate, they never really solved anything [VK: right]. And we thought oh my God. Yeah. We better keep quiet. And then about a month later, Nationwide picked it up.

SOUNDCLIP START

NATIONWIDE CLIP: The beloved garden gnome who'd done sentry duty for years on the front lawn had been abducted.

SOUNDCLIP END

ARTHUR: My brother was five at the time. Turns around and he goes, That was me and Arthur, that was. And then that was it.

VERNON KAY: [laughter] What did your parents say at the time when Colin gave it away?

ARTHUR: Oh my God. They couldn't believe it. They looked at me because I was a bit of a wayward sort of teenager anyway. So they looked and rolled their eyes, but I think it was the fact that I'd roped Colin into it as well. And it was like, oh my God, I hope you've all come back yeah and explained it all. It was like, well, you know those wagging of fingers and don't do it again. And, you know, we need to keep this quiet. The shame you bring on the feminist, etc... And that was it. And it just, you know, over the years it's been sort of on my conscience that I did this terrible thing.

VERNON KAY: Well, Arthur finally, finally on air with millions listening. I'm sure that because you were a young whippersnapper and Colin was only five. [laughter]

ARTHUR: I was only 15 myself. Yes. [VK: You were only 15.] Nearly 50 years ago.

VERNON KAY: I am sure that the nation will forgive you, Colin, as a harmless prank, I guess.

ARTHUR: I hope the statute of limitations has passed on this one. But I would like to beg forgiveness from all the families that I caused grief.

CH: That was Arthur last name unknown, the man formerly known as 'The Phantom Gnome Snatcher of Formby', speaking to BBC Radio 2 host Vernon Kay today.

[Music: Drums and guitar instrumental]

Part 3: Parent Competency Tests, B.C. Old Tracks, Appalachian Trail Damage, FOA: Fred R. Harris Obit., 143 Year Old Time Capsule

Parent Competency Tests

Guest: Najannguaq Christensen

SOUNDCLIP

Protesters in Greenland shouting/chanting.

CH: That's the sound of protests in Nuuk, Greenland this week where people have taken to the streets in response to the story of an Inuk woman in Denmark whose baby was taken away after a parental competency test. Keira Kronvold gave birth to her third child in North Jutland, Denmark, this month, the first time she took a parental competency test. Her first two children were taken away. This time, she told The Guardian newspaper she was told the test was to find out if she was, quote, "civilized enough". The incident is opening a bigger conversation about those tests. Inuit activists say that in their current version, they are racist because they don't take linguistic or cultural differences into account. Najannguaq Christensen fights for Greenlandic family rights as the co-founder of the group Sila 360. We reached her in Nuuk.

NK: Najannguaq, what is your sense of how Keira is doing right now?

NAJANNGUAQ CHRISTENSEN: Keira is struggling right now, and she's just trying to, to not freak out because, of course, she's in pain and she really wants her child back home.

NK: This has happened to her before. What reasons was she given this time?

NC: Yes, it has happened before. She has two older children who are placed in foster care and the siblings were separated and placed in two different foster care homes. And the removal of the elder children was also based on these parental competency assessments of Keira.

NK: And when you say parental competencies, I mean, what kinds of things are in her file? What are they? What are they, the officials saying to justify what they've done?

NC: Well, typically, they use psychometric testing and amongst others, they use IQ testing and the ability for, to assess whether the, how the parents can mentalize the child's needs. And they do it by different, they use kind of different kinds of psychometric testings to assess whether she has the ability to take care of a child's needs. So often we see in IQ testing, we found research from Canada from the '80s that showed that when IQ testing in children, for example, with non-culturally and linguistically adapted tests, there is a significant risk that the ones who are being tested are misdiagnosed.

NK: But let me ask you, I believe in The Guardian. They quoted a bit from Keira's case file saying, quote, "Her Greenlandic background, where even small facial expressions have communicative significance" end quote, would make it difficult for her "to prepare her child for social expectations and codes that are necessary in Danish society", unquote. That's difficult to read. What is it like for you to hear and know that that's the kind of metric that's being used here?

NC: Unfortunately, I have to say that I'm not surprised because I have seen those kind of statements in other parental competency assessments. So this is really a common assessment of Greenlanders their ways of expressing themselves is often use to describe the parents as unable to meet the child's needs in the future or to make the child ready for a Danish school system, because Greenlanders do not talk as much as and loudly as Danes, so they're more silent and it's, in Greenland it's a sign of respect that you listen and then you answer. But in Denmark it's more common to be assertive and interrupting and the loudest one is heard. And I also have to emphasize that the Danish government has ratified the ILO convention number 169, which states that former colonial states have to respect Indigenous people rights to the culture and language and the ways of living. And this is clearly an example that this isn't the case in Keira's case.

NK: Are you sensing a shift, though? As I understand it, Denmark's minister in charge of social affairs met with her Greenlandic counterpart last week because of the outcry with this particular case and is encouraging ministers, municipalities rather, to stop using this test. Does that suggest to you that things are going to change?

NC: No, it does not, because she advises them to stop the use of the test when they find that it's not necessary to use the testing method.

NK: So it's not strong enough, the language isn't strong enough, is what you're saying?

NC: No, it's not. And it's the same statement that the government made two years ago when we highlighted this in the Danish parliament, when I held the speech and told them that psychometric testing without cultural adaption is discriminatory and racist.

NK: Is there a chance Keira will get her baby back?

NC: From our experience with former cases, I wouldn't be too hopeful because usually we see that when Greenlandic children that are placed from birth or from two years or four years, we usually see that, and this is also described in a Danish research report that Greenlandic children are often placed for a longer period of time in Danish foster care homes. So typically they, if they go home, it's in the teenage years when the foster parents can't control the kids or if the Greenlandic children request going home themselves to their parents.

NK: This has been happening for a long time. Why do you think this particular case has triggered this kind of outcry and response in a way that you haven't seen necessarily before?

NC: Well, there was a video of Keira's child being taken away when she was on the maternity ward that went viral in Greenland. So I think that, you know, seeing how it happens and how it affects Greenlandic mothers, I think that anyone can sympathize with the way Keira is feeling right now to get her child taken away only two hours after giving birth. So although it's not unusual, I think it's different for people to see it with their own eyes and see how this practice that continues to reproduce itself is still continuing. And it is affecting not only the parents, but also our future current generation. And creating trauma not only to the parents, but also the children.

NK: Ms. Christensen, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

NC: Thank you.

CH: Najannguaq Christensen lives in Nuuk, Greenland.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

B.C. Old Tracks

CH: They look like bird tracks, but they also sort of don't. And we can't just hang around hoping to see what made them because the creature left the vicinity around 95 million years ago. In a paper published in the ornithological magazine, 'British Columbia Birds'. Palaeontologist Charles Helm and geologist Roy Rule discuss the discovery of these mysterious tracks in Tumbler Ridge, B.C. Well, they could have been made by a gangly looking bird like dinosaur known as Magnoavipes, which translates to "big bird foot". But they also could have been made by something else. Charles Helm talked to the CBC about what the creature might be and how they found the tracks.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES HELM: This was either a very big bird or else a bird like dinosaur. It's difficult to know for sure which of those two, but if it was a bird, I mean, it was big. It's bigger than a sandhill crane for sure. Probably bigger than a whooping crane. So part of the problem is that at that point in time, there are no birds of that size known from the body fossil record, which is why some people have said no, it was more likely a bird like dinosaur called an [inaudible] doesn't really matter to me. It's cool either way.

CAROLINA DE RYK: Yeah, cool indeed. How did you find these tracks in the first place?

CHARLES HELM: Well, one of them was found by colleagues in about 2010, and then in 2023, we actually found two. These are the only three of their kind in all of Canada. Even at a global level, they're not common.

CAROLINA DE RYK: Yeah. That really is incredible. And you talked a little bit about how this print is bigger than a sandhill crane, for instance. But for those who may not know the size of that, what would you compare that to? In like larger than a human hand, bigger than a Sasquatch foot?

CHARLES HELM: Right. Well, the larger one is, I think, 28 by 25cm. So it's more than a foot in length and diameter. And we see the digits. The [inaudible] impressions are really thin, very widely splayed. They're all from around about 95 million years old.

CAROLINA DE RYK: And you transported one of these tracks to the Tumbler Ridge Geo Park. How did you do that?

CHARLES HELM: It was a miracle of preservation because it fell down from a cliff and didn't shatter on impact. It landed the wrong way around upside down, which enabled us to see the track because it's the info layer of the track that was preserved and it was just lying there, you know, next to the river bank. Luckily, it was a very dry year, as you might remember, 2023. And that enabled us to get a canoe there. And four of us loaded this thing into the canoe and we managed to transport it across the river by canoe into a waiting truck and from there into the Tumbler Ridge Museum. So at least we can say that one of these specimens is now safely accessioned for visitors and other scientists to come and have a look at.

CH: That was palaeontologist Charles Helm speaking to Carolina de Ryk, host of Daybreak North.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Appalachian Trail Damage

Guest: Terry Wise

CH: It's been nearly two months since Hurricane Helene tore through several U.S. states, and the destruction it left behind is still being assessed. Helene was a category four storm that killed more than 200 people and left millions without power. The state of Tennessee was particularly hard hit, and so was the Appalachian Trail, the famous hiking trail connecting Maine to Georgia. According to the U.S. Forest Service, more than 400km of the trail are facing catastrophic damage, and the businesses that trail supports are also facing a rough path forward. Terry Wise is the owner of 'Uncle Johnny's' a hostel for hikers along the trail that was heavily damaged by Helene. We reached him in Erwin, Tennessee.

NK: Terry, when you were at the hostel, I mean, there's really a front row view to the beauty of the trail, in normal circumstances. What does it look like now when you look out those windows?

TERRY WISE: Well, some of my windows are gone and two cabins I tore down that were right along the river. I was sitting at a picnic table this morning staring where they used to be. And I can see the Chestoa bridge laying against the bank on the far side of the river, which is a 300 foot long bridge that torn down. And it's just laid up on the side of the river. And pieces of it are, you know, scattered throughout the river. And then my property, it's not devastated, but it requires a lot of rebuilding. I'm still going to have to tear down my store in order to rebuild that. It's just not salvageable.

NK: And so what would it be like under normal, normal circumstances at this time of year? Not just what the view looks like, but the people coming through.

TW: Yeah, it's very lonely. Very lonely. When I was sitting at that picnic table, I was just thinking that at this time of year, between September and about now, November, we have a few hundred southbound, as we call them, Sobas, but there are the southbound hikers that start in Katahdin and go down to Georgia. And I would have tents all around me. My cabins would have a few people in them. And whether it's through hikers, the sobas or section hikers or day hikers, it would definitely be more lively. And right now, there's nobody there. I've only seen two hikers in the past five weeks. So it's very sparse.

NK: And how are you getting by financially? I mean, if this is such a key period.

TW: Yeah. Well, I have sought grants. I have a 'Go Fund Me' page. There are some generous organizations that have, you know, reached out to me and helped me. I am working on a Small Business Administration loan. Congress has not approved those funds, so there's a lot of small business owners like me that are waiting for that. I had a little rainy day fund that's getting, disappearing right now, but it's good enough to hold me over. I'm hoping that some other funding will come through in the next month or so. But it is tough and me and a lot of business owners are rebuilding our businesses, thinking the business will come back. But it might be a tough year.

NK: You don't think people will come back?

TW: Well, I do, But the trail goes directly through Erwin and Unicoi County, Tennessee. And so we're a trail town and we're a river town. The river is never going to be the same. That could be good or bad. It's what you make of it. But all those small businesses are relying on people to come back. And this year, there's a lot of caution, right. Like the Forestry Service and the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, they're warning people that there are some dangerous parts of the trail now, because I've been out on the trail and there's a lot of blow downs. There's erosion. There's just places that are very difficult to hike past. So it might be a light year. I hope people will still hike. I hope people will come back to the towns, but there's still a lot to overcome.

NK: Was insurance helpful for you?

TW: Slightly. So everybody in this area and for the most part, I think people along this, that got flooded out, none of us had flood insurance because it wasn't required. We weren't in flood zones. So it may seem strange to people or may seem like it wasn't well thought out, but 95 per cent of people would have made the same decisions we did. It just wasn't necessary. This has never happened. Like they look at all the previous floods and nothing has ever come this high. They went all the way back to the early 1900s. No one alive has ever seen anything this big.

NK: As you rebuild and re-assess, is factoring in other natural disasters. You know, climate change. Is that all part of your calculations now?

TW: Of course, anything could happen. Right. And presumably this was a once in a lifetime event. But the probabilities are still there and it would really hurt to get hit a second year in a row. But we move forward with our lives. We think we'll be okay. You know, we are building bigger and stronger. The foundations will be better. They may be elevated a little bit. They may be. Just a hundred yards back from where the high water mark hit this time. Things like that. We are thinking about it and trying to be cautious. But Mother Nature can always surprise you.

NK: We're a couple of months since the hurricane now, if you think back to those first hours, those first days, and to where you are now, I mean, how would you compare that? Do you remember your initial reactions?

TW: Yes. Overwhelmed. Almost in a daze like shell shocked. And there's still times when I go out there and you just, I stare up and down my street. And the road that 'Uncle Johnny's' is on is right along the river. And it looks like somebody picked up the entire road, like as far as you can see, dropped it from 10 feet and it shattered. Asphalt is just everywhere. There's still debris being piled up. You have to extract the plastic from it and things like that. A lot of the wood, there's no choice but to burn a considerable amount of it. But it's very difficult to get rid of all the debris and everything that's just destroyed. We're still not in the rebuilding stage. We've cleaned up everything we can. And I'm waiting to rebuild. It will hurt to see 'Uncle Johnny's' get torn down. That'll be a little bit emotional. It's been there since 1998, and I've owned it for over three years. It's still tough.

NK: You know, you mentioned the grants, but people have also been coming, volunteering to help clean up the trail. That sense of community in the midst of all this. I imagine, is some comfort.

TW: The outpouring of support is as remarkable and phenomenal as what nature did. The people that have come from everywhere to help is just so emotional and heartwarming. The generosity of people, even financially. You know, still to this day, people are helping me out financially. Everything from water to food to clothes to cleaning supplies have been provided by people all over the country. People have travelled from Pennsylvania and California and all kinds of places to just come here and help. And so you're right, the outpouring and the generosity of people is really heartwarming and inspiring.

NK: It sounds like a remarkable and beautiful place. Terry, I hope you get back up and running soon. Please take care.

TW: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Terry Wise is the owner of 'Uncle Johnny's' a hostel for hikers along the Appalachian Trail that was damaged by Hurricane Helene. We reached him in Erwin, Tennessee.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

FOA: Fred R. Harris Obit.

CH: When he ran for president in 1976 Fred R. Harris made a bold move from the centre to the left, which is why today people are remembering him as a trailblazer in progressive American politics. The former Democratic senator from Oklahoma died on Saturday. He was 94 years old. During his short lived bid for the presidency. In the mid-seventies, he supported federal aid to cities, abortion rights and integrated schools. Talking about his base of support, he said those in the coalition don't have to love each other. All they have to do is recognize that they are commonly exploited. But he had always been a liberal, which is why in 1967 President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed him to the Kerner Commission, which looked at civil unrest in the U.S. The Commission's report recommended revolutionary changes and today is regarded as a touchstone on the subjects of race and racism in America. Almost 30 years after that, in 1995, Fred R. Harris was a guest on As It Happens, when President Bill Clinton was considering appointing another Kerner Commission.

SOUNDCLIP

FRED R. HARRIS: America made progress on virtually every aspect of race and poverty for a good while after the Kerner Report, and then at the end of the 1970s, that progress stopped and we began to go backwards. That's true.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: You have said that America knows what to do. And yet refuses to do it. Why is that?

FRED R. HARRIS: I think that because we made progress for a good while after the '60s, most Americans probably thought or think that the problems of race and poverty were all pretty much solved. And then we went on to other things like environment and so forth. Well, that's not true. Today, there is much more poverty than there was 25 years ago. That is an absolute numbers of poor people. And also in the percentage of our population, it's more packed now into the central cities. It's harder to get out of than it was 25 years ago. And all of the cities that the Kerner Commission on which I [inaudible] studied 25 years ago are today just as segregated or worse. And they've been re-segregating both in housing and in schools. And the, virtually every kind of social and economic measurement, family income, infant mortality, wages and so forth. All of those things show a widening gap again between whites and Blacks. We don't need any more studies. We know what works. We know what needs to be done. What's missing is the will to do it. And I think that the people are ahead of the politicians on this. Most people say we need to cut the amount of money we're spending on the military, yet this Republican Congress wants to increase it. Most people say, yes, I'd be willing to spend more money, we should, on social programs to help people and so forth. I think we need to create the will. I don't think we need a commission to study this problem, but perhaps that might be helpful insofar as focusing greater attention on their continuing existence and worsening.

CH: From our archives. That was Fred R. Harris speaking with, As It Happens, host Michael Enright in 1995. Mr. Harris has died at the age of 94.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

143 Year Old Time Capsule

CH: It's been almost a century and a half since leaders in a small Quebec town put two time capsules in the base of a monument to preserve a picture of daily life in the Saguenay region. The trouble is that everyone forgot about them. And so 143 years later, when the time capsules were accidentally discovered, their contents were unreadable, at least to the naked eye. The townsfolk are hoping technology will help to solve the mystery. Érik Langevin and Ségolène Vandevelde are with the Université du Québec in Chicoutimi. They're both part of the effort to uncover the capsule's contents.

SOUNDCLIP

ÉRIK LANGEVIN: The first one was in a box, maybe six inches by six inches. Unhappily, the box was broken and moist, water was inside. Therefore, it was very difficult to see what was inside. You have a lot of dust, probably a cassette of [inaudible] And this way also, we didn't touch it a lot at this time because, you know, lead is toxic.

ANGELICA MONTGOMERY: You haven't touched anything. You haven't touched the box even, very much.

ÉRIK LANGEVIN: Yeah, only the box outside. But we didn't touch anything inside. And it was therefore some white dust on some material, which clearly was a mix of paper, maybe plastic or plastic paper. It is not clear.

ANGELICA MONTGOMERY: I want to bring Ségolène Vandevelde into this conversation now. Can you explain to me, have you taken a look at this box?

SÉGOLÈNE VANDEVELDE: Yes. So the idea is to do 3D imaging to explore what is inside the degraded and stacked contents. So when we will have a picture, a 3D picture of what is inside, then we will be able to open it and to separate the layers. And maybe we will be able to see if there is some text. So the idea is to decipher it and also to see if there is a pictures maybe put inside the box.

ANGELICA MONTGOMERY: What are the chances that this is going to be of some importance in terms of what the find would be inside this box?

SÉGOLÈNE VANDEVELDE: Yeah, it's really an interesting element, the time capsule, because there is really a will from the people from the past to send something into the future. And with this monument, it's the monument itself was made to last and it was even restored. So the idea was to send it into the future, but it was visible inside the landscape, inside the city. That there is like the other level of transmission that was hidden inside the monument. And maybe that is more intimate. So, yeah, people have the past wanted to convey these elements to the future, and we received it. So now it's our job to try to decipher that.

CH: That is Ségolène Vandevelde speaking with Angelica Montgomery on Quebec AM. Before that, you heard Érik Langevin. He and Ms. Vandevelde are with the Université de Quebec in Chicoutimi.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 26, 2024

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