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The AIH Transcript for November 25, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Invoice of a generation. After heated debates, COP 29 delegates sign a deal that will see rich countries pay more for the impact they're having on developing nations. While some critics are outraged by that final number, our guest challenges that response.

CH: General's election. The president of Belarus claims the imminent election will prove his country is a robust democracy. But Opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya says he is still trying to silence his critics and the upcoming vote is a farce.

NK: A long awaited acknowledgement. Canada apologizes for the mass slaughter of sled dogs in Nunavik in the 1950s and '60s. Our guests witnessed what happened and the aftermath.

CH: One for the books. For the first time, a major publisher has cut a deal with an AI company. The head of the Canadian Writers Union says that's a step in the right direction but warns authors to proceed with caution.

NK: Getting something on their chests. A researcher tells us in an emergency the lack of breasts on most CPR training mannequins can have deadly consequences.

CH: And a little beardy told them. Dutch police stumble upon an item that is a cruel mockery of both statutes and statues. A garden gnome made of two kilograms of MDMA. As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio host assures you most garden ornaments aren't made of drugs. This is an a-gnome-aly.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: COP Agreement, HarperCollins AI Deal, CPR Breast Study, Ecstasy Gnome

COP Agreement

Guest: Avinash Persaud

CH: After two weeks, COP 29 has concluded with a deal that some countries are calling a success and others a betrayal. The tense climate conference officially wrapped up yesterday with an agreement for richer countries to pay poorer countries a total of 300 billion dollars U.S. a year in grants and low interest loans by 2035. The money is meant to help these countries shift to a low carbon economy and cope with the impacts of extreme weather. This is how Nigeria's special envoy on climate Nkiruka Chidia Maduekwe, described the deal.

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NKIRUKA CHIDIA MADUEKWE: That the developing country is saying that it's taking [inaudible] 300 billion dollar deal to 2035 is a joke. And is not something we should take lightly. I do not think it's something we should clap our hands and force us to take it. I do not think so. I think we should rethink it. It's not just by putting it in our statements, for we have a right as countries to choose if we're going to take this or not. 3:00am, and we are going to clap our hands and say, this is what we're going to do? I don't think so.

CH: Nigeria's special envoy on climate Nkiruka Chidia Maduekwe speaking during the closing ceremony of COP 29. The deal also mentions an overall climate financing target of 1.3 trillion dollars a year by 2035. But the source of that funding has not been agreed upon. Avinash Persaud was at the conference. He is the key architect of Barbadian Prime Minister Mia Mottley's Bridgetown Initiative, which proposed a change to the way rich countries finance poor countries in a climate crisis. Mr. Persaud is now the special adviser on climate change for the Inter-American Development Bank, the largest source of development financing for Latin America and the Caribbean. We reached him in Washington.

NK: Avinash, you heard what Nigeria's envoy said describing this deal as a, quote, "joke". Is that how you would describe it?

AVINASH PERSAUD: No, I think these are very difficult. I think coming to the negotiations developed countries have not created significant, substantial new budget space, taking money from elsewhere, raising new money. And developing countries came to the table with their total ask and wanting that to be in grant form as much as possible. When some of that could be funded in some other ways, including through the private sector, investment in climate mitigation, adaptation, loss and damage. Those are things that can't be funded by the private sector. But some things can. So, and both sides had this very opposing set of positions and didn't, many of the negotiators didn't have the negotiating mandate to start making creative compromise.

NK: Well, let me ask you about that quote. That quote certainly gives just a taste of how heated things got, how far to the brink this these discussions, you know, were at...

AP: But I don't really understand, I don't really understand that position either, because whilst it is certainly what developing countries need is something in the order of, say, 400 billion dollars in this kind of grant or concessional money rather than 300 billion per year. So yes, it's short, but equally, which government around the world is being elected to double their aid budget? I think that we are short, but we are not a million miles short.

NK: Our listeners heard about your involvement in crafting the Bridgetown Initiative. These are grants this time that we're talking about and low interest loans. That's what you proposed as part of the Bridgetown Initiative. Why are those so crucial?

AP: Well, because you, countries have to spend a lot of money on public goods to become more resilient and adapted to the climate changes already here. Developing countries are losing over 100 billion dollars a year in loss and damage. Many Canadians are familiar with the Caribbean, the Caribbean, rising sea levels and floods and hurricanes are costing billions of dollars every year, causing increased debt. I think that developing countries can look for a wide variety of sources for solar farms or wind turbines, which generate revenues, but not for building seawalls and creating flood resilient and drainage, better drainage systems. Those cost a lot of money.

NK: When you hinted earlier about what these developed nations are up against that. They didn't necessarily sun delegates with mandates to make the kind of deals that the developing nations were hoping for. But do you think that, I mean, are you surprised they didn't come with those mandates, even if they're not allowed to double their aid budgets. Are you surprised they didn't come prepared to give more before talks got so heated?

AP: I feel there's no room for pessimism or cynicism. We have to do something. What it tells me is that the work needed to be done before COP. If we wanted people to double their aid budgets, we had to persuade them domestically at home. And we had, they had to have a political mandate for that. And they came without a political mandate for that. So the best that could be done is make sure that within existing budgets, climate and development got the highest priorities. But that's within existing budgets. If we want these budgets to be totally different, we have to do the work in their domestic capitals with their electorates. And I say we, not me, but people have to do that work and that work had not been done. There isn't that mandate.

NK: I spoke with an economist last week who is trying to remain hopeful as well but is done with the idea of any more COPs. That the whole system of these summits is not useful anymore, is what she said, and that's to put it mildly. How are you feeling about this framework to achieve these kinds of deals?

AP: Total aid in the world is 200 billion dollars per year. That's the total amount of aid that all the developed countries contribute to developing countries. They have agreed that they're going to put 300 billion dollars a year into climate, which means additional resources and additional focus. I don't think that's nothing. That may not be what we need, but I can't say that's nothing.

NK: So, you know, further COPs are a good thing? Or does the system need to change, do there need to be different kinds of summits?

AP: Well, what is the alternative? Why would anyone imagine that there will be more money outside of COPs?

NK: You are from Barbados as we mentioned, you were an architect of the Bridgetown Initiative. How do you feel now about launching that and where things are at now?

AP: I think the Bridgetown initiative played a very important role in identifying scale. You know, up to this point, COPs were actually not about money in that way. COPs were about people coming with thousands of really interesting ideas of what to do. And what Bridgetown did was say, well, hang on, we need 2.4 trillion dollars a year. These are wonderful, interesting ideas that pick up a million here and a million there are just not scalable. And so I think Bridgetown played a very important role in getting that scale right. And having got that scale right, we then need the money to match that scale. What you've got at this COP is a tripling of where they were before, partly in recognition of that scale, a tripling in a political context that is not conducive to even more money flowing to developing countries. Now, that tripling is not enough, but it's certainly an important step in the right direction.

NK: Avinash, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AP: Thank you.

CH: Avinash Persaud is the special adviser on climate change for the Inter-American Development Bank. He's in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

HarperCollins AI Deal

Guest: Danny Ramadan

CH: Five grand per book. That is what some authors are being offered to allow Microsoft to use their work to train its artificial intelligence. The fee is split 50/50, with HarperCollins, the only major publisher to make this kind of deal so far. And it licenses the writing for a three year stretch. The arrangement follows several lawsuits that have challenged other AI creators over allegations they used copyright protected work without paying authors. Danny Ramadan is a writer and the Chair of the Writers Union of Canada. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Danny, if you were offered this deal, would you take it?

DANNY RAMADAN: I would be cautious about it, to be honest. I have a lot to think about if I was offered this deal.

NK: What gives you pause?

DR: To be honest, firstly, I would like to know more about how the work is going to be used, in what capacity. I also feel like, financially speaking, the deal is letting go of a lot of the hard work that we do as authors and instead just giving us a small amount of money in the hope of legalizing something that they have been doing illegally for years now.

NK: What advice, then, do you give to authors represented by the Writers Union of Canada about what HarperCollins has here? Are you suggesting that that your authors take it?

DR: I'm, personally I'm suggesting that my authors negotiate. I'm suggesting that they take their time, they read their deal. I think that there is a lot to be negotiated. This is a good starting bed and this is a good ground for moving forward. But I think there is room for negotiation both with Microsoft and they might increase their offer as well as with HarperCollins, because the 50/50 division seems to be a bit outlandish to me.

NK: What should it have been, in your view?

DR: Well, to be honest, this is not a royalty cheque. This is our work being used to train an AI. And that means that the majority of the work was on me as the author to write the book. Right. So I understand at the end of the day that the publisher need to have a cut. However, I think the cut should have been much more in favour of the author here. It takes years for an author to write a book. I think we need to at least respect the author and the work that they're doing. And I personally think that this offer needs to increase by a lot.

NK: Is it going too far to go from what you said there and say that you feel this deal is at this stage disrespectful to authors?

DR: [laughs] I think what was disrespectful is the years and years that our work has been used without their permission. That was extremely disrespectful. So I would say that moving forward, this is a step in the right direction towards the respect, towards the compensation. And I'm hoping that this will continue that direction.

NK: American writer Daniel Kibblesmith, as you may have seen, was one of the first to go public about this offer. It's an offer he declined. He wrote on social media, quote, "I probably do it for a billion dollars. I'd do it for an amount of money that would not require me to work anymore, since that is the end goal of this technology", unquote. So, you know, I hear what you're saying, as are others, that this technology is here to stay. But he's saying, I don't want anything to do with this because it's an existential threat to my profession. So what do you say to others who, I'm sure there are some in your union as well who might feel that way.

DR: The beauty of the union is that we have so many members with so many different experiences and so many different stances. Right. And Daniel is amazing in every way. And he might not need this money. While another author who receives the same offer might be like this, this will help me pay the mortgage. This will help me feed my dog. I don't know. So I would say definitely the offer is something that each author has to make their own decision about. But at the same time, me as the Chair of the Writers Union, us as the union, we have the ability to speak up, to say those things out loud. Those are things that many authors are thinking within their head. But sometimes because of their many circumstance, they might not be able to say it out loud.

NK: If though, individual authors start taking deals like this one for themselves, what does that mean for the ability of your union to negotiate collectively for writers? It specifically in terms of AI.

DR: I think, gosh, that is a big question. I think that we have been, as the Writers Union of Canada, working really hard to negotiate on many levels with the government about our rights market with the AI companies as we're trying to take them to court about their action. The challenge is that we as an industry are very weakened as individuals. We don't have as much power despite the fact that our art is what sells book, right. And so I'm hoping that more can be done where more officers can reach out to us as the union and ask us to play, to play a stronger role in doing this work. But unless the authors themselves step in and support us in this work as a union, there's not much we can do without that.

NK: Was your union consulted at all by HarperCollins or Microsoft during negotiations for this deal?

DR: It was not. The first time that we heard about this deal was from one of our authors, and the union reached out and asked for a consultation and then a couple more followed suit.

NK: What do you hope the other major publishers take away from what we're seeing now and what you're saying?

DR: I think this is a moment where a lot of folks can come together and choose the right thing. I think there is a lot of growth to be done. This is a great first step. And yes, I'm optimistic cautiously about it. I'm hoping that will be something that we get compensated and recognized for.

NK: Danny, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

DR: Thank you so much, Nil. I appreciate you.

CH: Danny Ramadan is the Chair of the Writers Union of Canada. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

CPR Breast Study

Guest: Rebecca Szabo

CH: Maybe you had your CPR training in a baby sitting or swimming course in your teens. Or maybe your work makes you redo CPR training every couple of years. Regardless, it's likely never noticed that the majority of mannequin you were working on had flat chests. Dr. Rebecca Szabo is with you. She's an obstetrician and the lead of the Gandel Simulation service at the Royal Women's Hospital and the University of Melbourne. In 2021, during the Delta COVID-19 wave, she was training health care workers to perform CPR on pregnant women. And it was only then that she finally noticed the problem for the first time. Her new study has found that that is not an anomaly. 95 per cent of the mannequin used in CPR training around the world don't have breasts, and that is having a deadly impact. We reached Dr. Rebecca Szabo in Banff, where she's giving the keynote speech at the Simulation Expo.

NK: Doctor, what did you and your team do when you had that realization that you did not have a mannequin with breasts for your training?

REBECCA SZABO: So, Well, I first of all, I called a colleague of mine to see if she knew of any solutions because this is her area of expertise. And she said, no, not really. That we could knit something or look into it that way and wasn't aware of anything. And so myself and a colleague went online and we purchased what is called a chest plate, which is very similar to what a drag queen would wear. So because unlike a singlet, it was under a hundred dollars and it got shipped to us in a box and arrived at the hospital. And we put that on our mannequin.

NK: So, you found a solution pretty quickly. But at that moment of realization, I mean, even as someone who had done training, you've done training since you were a teenager, right, when you first did CPR training. So what was that moment of realization like?

RS: I think it was that, oh my goodness moment of, hang on a second where are the mannequins with breasts? And it was a component of how have I not seen this before or how have I not realized the extent of the problem. As well as you know, I'm a bit speechless right now because it was that kind of what is going on here that this exists.

NK: From what I remember of my CPR training. The technique does not change whether a person has breasts or does not. So why is this such a big concern other than, you know, inclusion and reflecting the reality that we live in?

RS: Yeah. And I think we shouldn't dismiss reflecting the reality that we live in. I think that that's really important. And I think that's really our main point is, you know, that, you know, and the significance of this is, you're correct, the technique isn't any different. It's, you know, two hands, mid sternum or on the chest bone. But what we know is that women are less likely to receive CPR or cardio, if there's been a cardiac arrest and also less likely to survive. So this, some of the studies and some of the reports and there have been some recent ones out of both the UK and Australia and previous ones from North America suggest that people are worried about being sued or accused of assault. Some of it is that they're just unsure about what to do. Like do they take off clothes. Do they take off her bra? And that that hesitancy it's a cultural barrier. I had a colleague post something on social media yesterday saying he remembered learning how to do breast examination as a medical student. And he was a very naive young person in their late teens, early 20s who hadn't ever felt women's breast before. And so he was really overwhelmed at that point. So if you've got people who are learning CPR and, you know, people learn this at sporting clubs, swim schools, if they're not familiar with doing this on a body with breasts, then they that might stop them doing it in the moment because it's a scary moment. Like this isn't just someone in distress. This is somebody who's dead in front of you and you're doing CPR to hopefully bring them back to life.

NK: We're reaching you, as we said at this simulation expo in Banff, you're surrounded by people who work in this field. What have you been hearing from them?

RS: Well, interestingly, mostly I'm hearing silence because I think people are a little bit shocked because, as I say, I think it's a little bit like that moment when you said to me, what did you feel when you noticed?

NK: They're embarrassed that they didn't notice maybe before as well.

RS: Yeah, I think it is that kind of discomfort of actually, like, yes, the CPR training mannequins do not have breasts. And it is like really, you know, what we found is that 95 per cent available on the global market don't have breasts. But in actual fact, it was 100 per cent because one of them had a breast overlay. So that mannequin was also flat chested, but there was an overlay available. And so I think it's one of those things of, it's hard to be confronted with a reality like that. And I think people are like, oh yeah. And then it's the next aspect of we've also given some, I guess we've included ourselves as people who are simulation experts, people who make decisions about procurement and what we use along with manufacturers and government and regulatory and training bodies within that. But I think we have provided some solutions for people, but we have also named it as this is a human rights issue. This is a significant health care issue. This isn't just about the mannequins because I think the previous research has really focussed on there's no... like there's an issue of diversity but not taking it a step further. So I think it's been a bit of a shock for people and there's a lot of reflection happening.

NK: So if those manufacturers are listening and they're going to be making the products that that should be made. That will come hopefully in the not too distant future but in the meantime, if someone's listening and they are in this situation where they encounter someone in distress, a woman in distress, what advice would you give to them today?

RS: Well, I think the first thing is CPR can save lives. So I think the first thing would be it's really important for people to equip themselves with that knowledge. You know, as I said before, if somebody collapses and they don't have a pulse, right. And they're not breathing, then they're dead. And so CPR literally can save lives. And we need to be focussed on that and see if we can do something to address these cultural barriers of people being scared to do it.

NK: Doctor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RS: No problem.

CH: Dr. Rebecca Szabo is an obstetrician at Royal Women's Hospital in Melbourne. We reached her today in Banff.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Ecstasy Gnome

CH: The modern day garden gnome appears to have originated in Germany in the 19th century, a creation of whimsical statuary visionary Philip Griebel. The little dickens' he crafted looked mischievous, but they were considered responsible protectors of the harvest and guards against roaming evil spirits. This is why what happened in the Netherlands is such a perversion of the essence of gnomanity. Mr. Griebel must be turning over in his grave, the gravestone of which may be a big garden, but a big, sad one with RIP Philip Griebel written on his beard. Maybe, anyway, during a recent bust in the southern Netherlands, police discovered a garden gnome. At first glance, a cute one, his hands playfully covering his mouth. But when one looks closer, one sees that he looks scared. And suddenly, one wonders, Is this little fellow being impishly naughty? Or is he frightened to reveal a terrible truth, which is that he this gnome we have blindly trusted to protect our crops is made entirely out of drugs. Yup. He was. If I am reading this right, the Dutch police didn't find that that two kilogram garden gnome contained MDMA. They found that he was somehow sculpted out of MDMA. Street names, according to the RCMP. Ecstasy, molly, peanut, Love Drug. In a press release, the police wrote the gnome himself was visibly startled. Which is funny stuff if you cruelly ignore the gnomes true feelings. His nightmarish epiphany that he is made of a schedule one club drug. The agony of being ecstasy.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, Sled Dog Apology, Facebook Surrogate

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya

Guest: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya

CH: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya's job is not getting any easier. The exiled opposition leader of Belarus took over that position after her husband, the former leader, was imprisoned while campaigning for the presidency in Belarus four years ago. This week she's in Canada for meetings with the federal government and to attend the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and the Halifax International Security Forum. Her visit comes after the president of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko, announced new elections for January of next year, elections that he's made it all but impossible for himself to lose. Next door in Ukraine, his ally, Vladimir Putin, appears to be making brutal progress. And in Washington, Joe Biden, who has supported both Ukraine and the Belarussian opposition, is about to be replaced by Donald Trump. Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya joined Nil today in our Toronto studio.

NK: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, welcome to the As It Happens studio.

SVIATLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA: Hi, everyone.

NK: When you look at the incoming U.S. administration and the things Donald Trump has said about ending the war in Ukraine and ending it quickly, are you worried that Belarus could become collateral damage in all of that?

ST: So American help and assistance to Ukrainians is crucial for Ukrainians and for us Belarusians. And I want to believe that my policy towards Ukraine and Belarus will remain the same. The most assistance to the Belarusians and Ukrainians because we are fighting global evil. We are on the front line of fight against dictatorship. And we have to understand that there are no simple solutions to difficult questions. You know we also want peace. We also want to, you know, return our country back, you know, but it should be just peace because, you know, when dictators see indecisiveness, they perceive it as weakness. And they think that they really don't respect democratic world they think that you are not united, you are not decisive. It emboldened them. They make alliances the unite to each other. And they think that so they can ruin democratic society. They can poison democratic people with the narratives that, look, it's not your wars. You don't have to interfere. Just enjoy a comfortable life, you know. But it's not so because they can knock your doors, knock of democratic world and it will be much more troubles than now.

NK: Have you spoken to members of the incoming administration in the United States?

ST: We have contacts in Trump's team. And first of all, I think that we have to rediscover Belarus for them, because I doubt that Belarus exists in their orbit. So we have to explain what's going, what's happening in Belarus, how Belarus and Ukraine interconnected. So we start our communication at the moment. But I have to remind that when our uprising in Belarus happened back in 2020, it was Trump's administration that imposed for sanctions against Lukashenko's regime. I remember a statement of President Trump about with the words of condemnation of repressions in Belarus. So, we have to see what actions will follow after this new presidential election.

NK: As you have all of these discussions and you've been having them for years now travelling around the world, is it frustrating? Is it hard for you to still have to have these conversations?

ST: You know, of course, for me, as a person who is going through constant pain for what's happened in Belarus, my husband is in prison. My children haven't seen him for four years. There are thousands of splintered families, thousands of people suffering behind bars for politically motivated cases. Of course I would like changes happen faster. Of course, I want to see a stronger leadership in the democratic countries, you know. And I understand, you know, that sometimes is difficult to make agreements within democratic society because so many countries are involved. You know, we provide the world with proofs how many crimes Lukashenko has committed, Lukashenko's regime. It's crimes against humanity. It's abduction of Ukrainian children is dragging our country through the war, migration crisis that was orchestrated by the regime. Let's recall hijacking of aeroplane. Everybody has forgotten about. So we can't find justice in Belarus. So let international institutions work. And I hope that the International Criminal Court Special investigations will be launched against Lukashenko's crimes. You know, why this hasn't been done yet? We see how people from this regime were torturing our activists, you know, judges who sentenced people to 15, 20 years just for tweets or for a small donate to political prisoners. They easily travel, they see other countries while people are suffering in Belarus. So, yeah, I really wanted to see how democracy is working in full, how democracy is believing in itself. And that really can destroy this dictatorial world.

NK: Inside your country we're seeing reports of a new crackdown, more than 16 hundred, maybe even more than that. People who have been showing solidarity with Ukraine have been rounded up. Many have already been imprisoned. What does that signal to you?

ST: You know, repressions in Belarus haven't stopped for a day since 2020. Everyday people being detained for wearing wrong colours, for singing Ukrainian/Belarusian songs, for speaking Belarusian language, for opposing repressions, for solidarity. Now, solidarity became crime in Belarus. When you buy a present to a child of political prisoner, you can be detained for years and years. When you're supporting Ukrainians, you can be sentenced for years. So we feel this repression every day. So and it's a signal for me that Lukashenko knows, this regime knows that people are not given up. They know that as all of this stops, repressions, people will be on the streets again. You know, people again will resist. They know that our movement, democratic movement, went underground to the moment because, you know, the fear is still too strong. But the regime didn't manage through this repression to change minds of people, you know, to make them like this regime or trust this regime. So this why they still behave as if hundreds of thousands standing in front of Lukashenko's palace, you know, just wanting change. So, the trauma that go back in 2020 is very strong. They feel very fragile. They see that people don't support the dictatorship. They feel political isolation from democratic partners. They feel very weak. And this tyranny is the only weapon they have. People live like Stalin's time at the moment in Belarus, but despite of this, they continue to keep pressure on the regime.

NK: The world will be watching Washington, obviously in early January for the inauguration of the incoming president. Later that same month in your country there is what is being billed as an election. You've called it something else. What do you want the world to know about what is said to happen in the new Year in Belarus?

ST: In Belarus in January Lukashenko's going to have a ritual of appointing himself again as president, though he lost legitimacy back in 2020, he's not recognized no bills and people by no democratic society. But it's important for him to prove himself that he has ability to draw necessary number in the ballots. So we call our democratic partners preliminarily not to recognize this elections, not to legitimize Lukashenko's regime, and we have full support in the democratic society. But for sure, these so-called elections will not change anything politically. You know, in Belarus, you know, Lukashenka is there supported by Putin. But we have huge strength from the Belarusian people and from democratic world in resistant the dictatorship.

NK: What will opponents of this regime do to oppose the election? I know you've talked about people going underground because the situation necessitates that. How do you think they'll push back?

ST: I don't think that the possibility for uprising will take place because the level of repressions is very strong. I believe like in gulag at the moment. So we are not asking to go to the streets because it will be more victims, more political prisoners, and it's not the moment we are preparing for. For sure, it will be the moment of opportunity for Belarusian to resist again. It might be connected with the victor of Ukraine or with some economic situation or maybe some instability in Russia. I don't know. But we have to wait real moment like Black swan because people are ready to oppress, people are ready to be on the streets and to, you know, resist. But, you know, these so-called elections will not change anything. But, of course, people want to somehow, to contribute to our fight. So we ask them, if you are forced to go to the polling station, so put the stick against everybody. It will not change anything. Nobody's going to count your votes. But still, it will be like your moral, you know, release. People who don't want to vote, please don't go because, again, it's not about elections. People who live in exile. And it is at least half a million of activists who left the country since 2020. We are going to have a huge campaign in all the countries where Belarusian diaspora are present just to just to be visible again.

NK: And just finally, I think that's your husband's photograph on your folder there. You carry that with you always.

ST: Yeah. I always kept a picture of my husband with myself because, you know, he's in jail for four years already. And the last more than one year, he's kept incommunicado. It's a new type of torturing. When lawyer is not allowed to visit him, letters are not delivered. You know, I don't know if he's alive because I have no information at all. And we have many people like him who don't have any connection with freedom. And, of course, we have to demand release of my husband and the other political prisoners. And I need this picture constantly with me because, you know, the fight for democracy is not easy one. And I also sometimes frustrated, of course, sometimes I'm exhausted and I don't think where to take strength to continue. So it's always like remind for me of what, what I'm fighting for. I need to feel him nearby, you know, because people in prisons, they rely only on us. They don't have other way out from prisons only, you know, for defeat of Lukashenka regime. And it's like remind to me in the moments of inspiration.

NK: When was the last time you spoke?

ST: It was May 2020.

NK: What would you say now?

ST: If there is a meeting with my husband, it means that we won and the people can hug they [inaudible] relatives who are in prisons at the moment. The only thing I regret that it is too long. Too long. Because every day in prison, in Belarusian prisons is a loss of health, loss of hope. And, you know, people who are getting released because they served their terms, they say that the awful feeling in prison is the feeling of being abandoned, the feeling that you're alone, the feeling that nobody cares about you. So that's why with solidarity, with every act of sympathy, you know, just be sure to our political prisoners that we are fighting. Please don't give up. Take care of your health and life.

NK: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, thank you so much for your time.

ST: Thank you.

CH: Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya is Belarus's exiled opposition leader. She was in our Toronto studio.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Sled Dog Apology

Guest: Charlie Arngak

CH: It's a moment some Inuit in Nunavik have been calling for and waiting for years. This weekend, Canada's Minister of Crown-Indigenous relations was in the region of northern Quebec, visiting one of several communities where sled dogs were systematically slaughtered in the 1950s and '60s. Minister Gary Anandasangaree was there to formally apologize on behalf of the Canadian government for its involvement in the mass killing of those animals. And the government also announced 45 million dollars in funding towards reconciliatory programming. Here's part of what Minister Gary Anandasangaree had to say this weekend.

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GARY ANANDASANGAREE: While apologies and acknowledgements will not bring back what you lost. I hope it gives you some confidence that we can move forward together. I hope it gives you some closure. And some element of humanity in a deeply inhumane act or acts that took place. In the 1950s and '60s.

CH: Charlie Arngak is the deputy mayor of Kangiqsujuaq. That's where we reached him.

NK: Deputy Mayor, what was it like to be in that room at that community centre?

CHARLIE ARNGAK: It was, I can say it was emotional, emotional, and it was kind of hard to talk about what really happened that time.

NK: As much as you're comfortable sharing, Charlie, what do you remember from your childhood about when these sled dogs were slaughtered?

CA: I was a young boy and I was with my two friends that time when that happened. I was on top of the [inaudible] building, the warehouse of the Roman Catholic priests. And we were on top. Three of us were on top me and some of my friends. We were watching the men, our uncles, our fathers going down to the ice with their dogs, which are [inaudible]. And they were walking very close to us. And I see it happen and I can see their faces. It was very sad to see them. I know most of them. Some of them have tears because they were taking their own transportation, you know, dogs going down to the to the bay, the ice and know that they will be shoot and get killed by a policeman. That was very sad to see.

NK: You were just a child. What kind of an impact does that have as you grow up and remember that? That's a difficult thing to see as a child.

CA: Yes, it's been it's been like yesterday. Like I said, when I start to make my speech to the minister, it was like yesterday that happened. And it's always on my mind because I can see my uncles, two of my uncles losing, losing their dogs. The main only transportation and they were looking forward to go up in the land next day and check their trap. And next morning there was no more dog for them. It was very sad that day. And also in the evening, I usually stay at my uncle's place. And I can feel the air was like a dark, very dark room. And nobody seems to talk. It was very, very bad experience I had when I was a boy. So I mentioned to the minister it was a long time coming and it was not just a dog that was slaughtered, even our language was also. It's a long story, but to me I just wanted to focus on what really happened that day.

NK: Yeah. Why did the government do this, do you think?

CA: I don't know. I never heard any full story. It happened like that. We were not expecting it to happen like that. And it was like a nightmare.

NK: Do you feel closure after this? Is this chapter closed? Does it help heal what you saw as a child?

CA: Well, I don't know how long, it's been going on for so many years. I know my uncle and the parents passed away. They had this feeling all their live and the apology should have come earlier when they were still alive. But almost all of the people that was, loosed their dogs have passed away. And it was very emotional. Like, I said.

NK: Charlie, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

CA: And I want to add something.

NK: Of course. Please go ahead.

CA: I wanted to add something. If you give me a time.

NK: Of course.

CA: The government should have looked into, before they decided to slaughter the dogs or kill the dogs. They should have provided transportation like snowmobile before that happened. If they have done that, it would have been much easier for our people to travel, to buy, to get some food for the family and going to land check their traps. But I believe the government really made a big mistake. They should have think of that beforehand. But I really appreciate what the Minister apologized for and I accepted it.

NK: Deputy Mayor, thank you very much for your time.

CA: Okay. Thank you. Have a good day.

CH: Charlie Arngak is the Deputy Mayor of Kangiqsujuaq. That's where we reached him.

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Facebook Surrogate

CH: Buy Nothing Facebook groups are nothing new. The premise is that they provide spaces where people can give and receive gifts for free. People can also make requests for anything, really. But one couple in Ottawa may be the first to make this particular request. In 2021, Jonathan Hobin and Lucas de Faria posted in their local group that they were looking for a surrogate, and now they've welcomed baby Eden with the help of Buy Nothing and a total stranger.

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JONATHAN HOBIN: We had some great advice when we first were looking at starting a family, and I think it was our fertility doctor who said, When you are ready, scream it as loud as you can. Tell everyone that you know that you're looking and someone will find you. And I think that with the power of social media, we just went straight there.

LUCAS DE FARIA: Together with the Facebook post, it was like so viral, like so many people answered. We had so many people, you know, sharing and also people messaging me like from not only Ottawa but everywhere in Canada. It was extremely incredible the response that we had. And I know I really didn't expect for people to just be just sharing and just to help a stranger. I didn't think that we would find our surrogate through Facebook. For me would be like, I was imagined, a friend of a friend, you know, like it is just like, a cousin that would do this for us, you know, and not at all like. And it is very funny to think that it was this total stranger that emailed us and like, you know, like I am a stable person. I have a good financial stability and this person you know, came into our lives and it was a complete stranger and it was just a wonderful surprise.

CH: Jonathan Hobin and Lucas de Faria speaking with the CBC's Sarah Kester.

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Part 3: Sarah McBride, Britons Held Abroad, 20 Year Old Town Councillor, Women In Combat, Oldest Alphabetic Writing, Alice Brock Obit.

Sarah McBride

CH: Last week, incoming lawmaker Sarah McBride was focussed on getting herself situated in Washington. While Republicans seem to be focussed on which bathroom she should be using. The Democrat from Delaware is set to become the first openly trans member of Congress. And by way of welcome, Last week, GOP House Speaker Mike Johnson said in a statement, quote, "All single sex facilities in the Capitol and House office buildings such as restrooms, changing rooms and locker rooms are reserved for individuals of that biological sex", unquote. Margaret Brennan asked Sarah McBride about that in a CBS interview yesterday.

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SARAH MCBRIDE: I didn't run for the United States House of Representatives to talk about what bathroom I use. I didn't run to talk about myself. I ran to deliver for Delawareans. And while Republicans in Congress seem focussed on bathrooms and trans people and specifically me, I'm focussed on rolling up my sleeves, diving into the details, setting up my office and beginning the hard work of delivering for Delawareans on the issues that I know keep them up at night. And I look forward to working with any colleague who's ready to work and ready to be serious about the issues that matter because at the end of the day, how I'm being treated does not matter. What matters is how the American people are being treated and whether we're actually focussed on the issues that matter to them.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, some of your fellow congressional Democrats, including Tom Suozzi and Seth Moulton, have also recently spoken about their feelings looking back at the last election and said Democrats should be more open about saying whether they object to transgender athletes playing in girls’ sports. Those were the specific examples they brought up. How would you respond to your soon to be Democratic colleagues on those? Do you understand why some parents, for example, feel uncomfortable or frustrated?

SARAH MCBRIDE: Look, I think this country is still entering into a conversation about who trans people are, the full diversity of the community. And I've had conversations with colleagues in the Democratic caucus already that that span diversity of thought about how the party should engage on a whole host of issues. But I think we are all united that every single American deserves equal rights. I think we are all united that attempts to attack a vulnerable community. Are not only mean spirited, but really an attempt to misdirect. Because every single time we hear the incoming administration or Republicans in Congress talk about any vulnerable group in this country, we have to be clear that it is an attempt to distract. It is an attempt to distract from what they are actually doing. Every single time. Every single time we hear them say the word trans. Look what they're doing with their right hand.

CH: U.S. Representative-elect Sarah McBride speaking with Margaret Brennan on CBS's Face the Nation yesterday.

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Britons Held Abroad

Guest: Gurpreet Singh Johal

CH: Gurpreet Singh Johal has met with five UK foreign secretaries, all with the hope of helping free his brother Jagtar Singh Johal, from an Indian prison. Jagtar has been detained for seven years without trial. He faces terror charges in connection with political violence in the north of India but has never been convicted and denies all the allegations against him. And he's not the only Briton detained abroad. Human rights activist Alaa Abd el-Fattah is serving a five year sentence in Egypt, and property developer Ryan Cornelius has been in prison in Dubai for 16 years. While he was in opposition, David Lammy vowed to appoint a special envoy to help secure the freedom of Britons detained abroad without a fair trial. Now he is the UK's Foreign Minister, but many of the detainees families are worried about report that diplomats are resisting the implementation of that special envoy. We reached Gurpreet Singh Johal in Dumbarton, Scotland.

NK: Gurpreet, would a special envoy like this, would it actually make a difference for your brother and others like him?

GURPREET SINGH JOHAL: I think it's important to have someone that's specific to bring British detained abroad back home, which is what we don't currently have in the UK. So I think it's a really important step because the goal of that individual would be to bring the British national back to the UK and forget all of the drama around it, because the focus would be how do we bring the individual back to the UK, which is currently what we don't have, because at the moment we have different factors with the government to look at. And so I think it would be really important and it would be a really good and positive step and to help people come back to the UK with.

NK: Something you're no doubt aware of, but to let our listeners know. You know, there are reports certainly in The Guardian newspaper, that there are senior British diplomats who are resistant to this idea of a special envoy, and they're saying it could affect relationships with other countries, even trade deals. Alicia Kearns, a former chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, told The Guardian that, quote, I have never come across an issue or part of the Foreign Office that is more belligerent or unwilling to be reformed, unquote. Those reports in The Guardian and what Ms. Kearns is saying there, what do you make of that resistance?

GSJ: I've been campaigning for the last seven years to bring my brother back home, and he's been detained in India arbitrarily. I had thought as a British born and bred national, that British government would have helped. Whereas I've been campaigning against the Indian government, fighting the legal system, but also for the UK government to do more. Now, a lot of as civil servants, advisers advising ministers of what to do. So I'm not surprised of that comment of how that plays across. I've got a prime example of this, at a meeting with the foreign secretary at the time, David Cameron, who's a former prime minister. And I'd asked questions of David Cameron, point blank and David had said, my advisers are in the room and Gurpreet's asked you a question, feel free to answer. And none of the advisers to David Cameron could answer the question I put to them. But these are the same advisers telling David Cameron what he should or shouldn't be doing so...

NK: What had you asked?

GSJ: What is the position? Why are you not calling for Jagtar's release and return to the UK? Because the UK have a policy. If you are arbitrarily detained, they should be calling for your release. Now the UN Working Group of arbitrary detention have declared Jagtar's detention arbitrary. So why were the UK government not following that policy. And the civil servants didn't, the advisers didn't have an answer to that. So these are the same advisers that advise the ministers. So I wasn't surprised from the quote that you've just read, I think that there is a bit of reluctance and it sometimes appears that the officers in charge and whether it's in London or whether it's India, they're more interested of protecting their own relationships with individuals as opposed to putting the primary factor on an individual in need.

NK: And what about Gurpreet, the current government? Our listeners heard what the current Foreign secretary, David Lammy, said prior to his party's win in the last election. Do you think the current government is on a path towards what you would like to see and a path to bringing your brother home?

GSJ: I have to go in steps. So in July this year, the current Foreign secretary on his first visit to India, raised Jagtar's case, with his counter parts. He then raised it again when he was speaking to his counterpart. The Prime Minister has raised it at the highest level. The Labour Government have only been in power since July and we're seeing movement already to help us citizens and bring at least my brother back. But there's also other citizens detained, that are sitting in other countries that are looking for the same support from the government. I have hopes that the government will do so. But again, I know I also need to keep campaigning until my brother is back home.

NK: When was the last time you spoke with your brother?

GSJ: I last spoke to my brother a week on Saturday, and it was a short call because the situation we have is Jagtar is intermittently allowed to call the family. So either he'll call myself or his wife and we don't know how long the call was going to last. Normally, it's about me updating him about his cases because while his legal process going on in India Jagtar doesn't actually get to know what's happening on this case. He's put on a video call, occasions as like putting your attendance on and off you go and the lawyers carry on with the case. So it was more about that. And Jagtar has had bills refused by the High court. It was to find out what's happening with the appeal to the Supreme Court. And before you know it, the time is up.

NK: Why do you think your brother is facing these charges?

GSJ: Well, I believe that my brother's facing these charges because the Indians want to make this an international conspiracy. The chief minister of Punjab wanted to see that he found the perpetrators of these high class murders that took place. But without Jagtar, there is no international conspiracy. The rest of the co-accused are all Indian nationals, so they require required Jagtar to be a part of this. And also that Jagtar was documenting on the [inaudible].

NK: How do you stay hopeful Gurpreet, after all these years?

GSJ: The community keeps us going and faith in God keeps us going. We know that Jagtar is going to come back to the UK, whether it's tomorrow, whether it's 10 years down the line. He will be coming back to the UK. It's quite clear in order to bring him back home, we have to campaign and keep the pressure on the government to do more and that's the only way we will bring them back.

NK: I appreciate your time, Gurpreet. Please take care.

GSJ: Okay. Thanks Nil bye.

CH: Gurpreet Singh Johal in Dumbarton, Scotland. His brother, Jagtar Singh Johal has been detained in India without trial for seven years.

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20 Year Old Town Councillor

CH: Last week, municipal elections across Saskatchewan brought in a lot of brand new councillors, but few of the fresh faces are quite as fresh as that of Victor Santos Cardoza. At 20 years old, he is the youngest person ever elected to Moosomin town council. In 2017, Mr. Cardoza and his family were nearly deported to Honduras, but the town rallied around them and they were allowed to stay.

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VICTOR SANTOS CARDOZA: I took an interest in running for council for many reasons. One being, you know, it's been instilled in me throughout my family, you know, acts of service, my family back home or, you know, they were very community driven, you know, And I believe I inherited those values. And there is a desire to give back to this very community, of Moosomin that helped me and my family many years ago. And so essentially what that did, they gave us a second chance going forward in this country. And we were given a deportation order We had within two weeks, right. To go back to Honduras. But, you know, through the efforts of many of the community members, you know, and lots of Moosomin representatives and whatnot, you know, they rallied together through many fundraisers and whatnot. And then, you know, they vouched for us to stay. And here we are today. Right.

PETER MILLS: Why do you think they did that?

VICTOR SANTOS CARDOZA: At first I was confused. You know, I'm thinking, you know, why us? You know, because we were strangers back then, right to the community. We were just, we were newcomers to town. And then over the time of just starting to realize, you know, how selfless and truly, you know, and giving the folks are here and Moosomin, you know, they're, you know, Moosomin is very community minded, right. It's all, you know, it's all for one and one for all right here in Moosomin. So, you know, they're you know, they're truly for, you know, the community and, you know, and in helping each other out. So over the years, I tend to realize that I hear in Moosomin it's all for giving back.

PETER MILLS: How does your family feel about you being a councillor?

VICTOR SANTOS CARDOZA: They're extremely proud of me. You know, I just want to point out that none of this, you know, I wasn't pressured to do any of this by my folks. They've, you know, supported all my decisions, you know, leading up to this. And, you know, they've just been extremely supportive and proud.

PETER MILLS: I think what's exciting is you don't typically get a young perspective on any municipal council, whether it's in a small town or city, what, you know, as a 20 year old, what kind of priorities do you want to bring to Moosomin?

VICTOR SANTOS CARDOZA: You know, to me, there wasn't any, you know, of a younger generation, you know, getting, you know, getting involved in stepping forward, you know. And so to me, you know, I thought maybe there's an opportunity there for hopefully, you know, for me to bridge different generations and, you know, and hopefully get our youth, you know, involved more. And going forward, I just I have plans to work and learn along that many of our important figures here in our community. Right.

CH: Victor Santos Cardoza, the youngest ever town councillor in Moosomin, Saskatchewan. Speaking to CBC Saskatchewan's Peter Mills.

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Women In Combat

CH: The woman who runs Canada's military has some thoughts on the subject of limiting what women can do in the military. That non-issue has been becoming one because of comments made by Pete Hegseth, Donald Trump's pick for the United States Defence Secretary. Mr. Hegseth is a Fox News host and author. Earlier this month, he appeared on a podcast called The Shawn Ryan Show where he said this.

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PETE HEGSETH: I'm surprised there hasn't been more blowback on that already in the book because I'm straight up just saying we should not have women in combat roles. It hasn't made us more effective, hasn't made us more lethal, has made fighting more complicated.

CH: Then on Friday, U.S. Senator Jim Risch was in Nova Scotia for the Halifax International Security Forum. And when Senator Risch was asked about Pete Hegseth's thoughts on women in combat, he offered this.

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JIM RISCH: Look, I think it's delusional for anybody to not agree that women in combat creates certain unique situations that have to be dealt with. I think the jury's still out on how to do that.

CH: Well, the next morning, General Jennie Carignan, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, appeared at the same forum. And the first question to her was about China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. But she had something else to address first.

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JENNIE CARIGNAN: If you'll allow me, I would first like maybe to respond to Senator Risch's statement yesterday about women in combat. [applause] Just very quickly, because I wouldn't want anyone to leave this forum with this idea that women are a distraction to defence and national security. After 39 years of career as a combat arms officer and risking my life in many operations across the world. I can't believe that in 2024 we still have to justify the contribution of women to their defence and to their service in their country. I wouldn't want anyone to leave this forum with this idea that this is, that it is some kind of social experiment. Women have been participating in combat for hundreds of years. However, they have never been recognized for doing so. They have been demobilized quickly and then quickly forgotten about their service and their commitment again to fighting for their country. And all the women sitting here in uniform stepping in and deciding to get into harm's way and fight for their country need to be recognized for doing so. So again. [applause] And that, folks, is the distraction, not the women themselves. So, again, just wanted to be clear on that point.

CH: That was General Jennie Carignan, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, speaking at the Halifax International Security Forum on Saturday.

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Oldest Alphabetic Writing

Guest: Glenn Schwartz

CH: I know, I know. We all have deep seated beliefs about when alphabetic writing emerged. Personally, as I've said many times on this program, I've always assumed it was the ancient Mesopotamians who first employed writing that combined the phonetic and the semantic. But one self-proclaimed expert who is an archaeologist and is therefore just an actual expert, has long thought that the alphabet is at least 500 years older than that. 2004 Glenn Schwartz discovered four finger sized clay cylinders with symbols on them in a tomb in northwestern Syria. He immediately assumed the symbols could be writing, but he wasn't sure until now. At this year's meeting of the American Society of Overseas Research in Boston, Mr. Schwartz stood firm in his interpretation that one of the 45 hundred year old pieces of clay with a scrap of writing on it may be a name on a gift tag of sorts, which would date alphabetic writing to half a millennium before most people, myself included, thought. Glenn Schwartz is an archaeologist at Johns Hopkins University, and we reached him in Boston.

NK: Glenn, when you first found this object 20 years ago, what did you think it was?

GLENN SCHWARTZ: I was kind of stumped. We were excavating this tomb and we were finding all sorts of interesting things, lots of pottery, lots of jewellery. And then my graduate student who was excavating the tomb, she came into the dig house one afternoon and she had these little clay cylinders and she said, I don't know what these are, but I found them, you know, next to one of the vessels. So I looked at them and I realized that they had incised symbols on them. So I just...

NK: Thought that this is probably something significant, yeah.

GS: I didn't know if it was significant or not. I knew it was unusual or maybe even unique. So I thought, well, I've got to look into these, but I just sort of filed it away as like many of important, many important things that I had to study from the tomb and from the whole tomb complex.

NK: So what changed to bring you to this point in this conversation, where you going to tell us what you think it says?

GS: Yeah. Well, you know, when I have time to think. You know, when you're digging, there's a million things going on and you really have to manage all sorts of different logistical and other issues. When I gotten back to the university and I had a time to contemplate, yeah, I was looking at my photos and the drawings and all and I thought, so what could this be? And there's symbols and symbols of what. And then I started thinking, could they be writing? But if it was writing, it wasn't like writing any other kind of writing that was known from that period, as far as I could tell. So, you know, I'm an archaeologist. I'm not, archaeologists don't tend to do in-depth analysis of ancient texts. They leave that to the philologists, the linguists, the [inaudible].

NK: What do you believe it says on the cylinder?

GS: Well, there are many ways to try to read it, but what I have proposed is that which, which, by the way, is the suggestion that was made by my colleague Ted Lewis, who is a philologist, you know, in my department at my university, and he suggested that it could be a personal name, but there are four, there are four cylinders. And one of the cylinders, one of the inscriptions could be read as a personal name, Selanoo, which comes from the Semitic word for rock. So I think it's a good idea and a useful hypothesis, if nothing else.

NK: If this is a name or proof of an alphabet, how would that change our understanding of how alphabetic writing has evolved?

GS: Well, until now the consensus has been that alphabetic writing was first developed in Egypt, probably no earlier than 1900 B.C. And the idea is that Egyptian hieroglyphs, the Egyptian hieroglyphic system is rather complicated. But some characters in that system are sort of you might understand them as sort of proto alphabetic. But if my characters if sorry, if my cylinders really are alphabetic, that would make the appearance of the alphabet 500 years earlier than the conventional understanding, and also would place the origins of the alphabet in a different location. So not in Egypt or not in the southern block, but in northern Syria.

NK: You've presented the findings, but they haven't been published or peer reviewed yet. A researcher at Cambridge tells Scientific American, quote, When you only have a very, a few very short inscriptions. It can be difficult to tell how many signs the system has, unquote. So how does that sit with you that we're not really sure if this is part of a larger alphabet because are so few symbols?

GS: Yeah, that's a fair observation. The reason that I suggested that they're alphabetic is because the characters are rather comparable to the alphabetic characters that emerge around 1900 or so in Egypt and in southern Iraq. And, you know, the characters in the alphabetic system of that period, which is ultimately the ancestor of the alphabet that we use, the characters, the letters they have names and the names of those letters reveal what the letters are supposed to represent, what the actual form of the letters supposed to represent. So I have quite a number of the characters from these cylinders are quite comparable to the alphabet of characters that we have from, you know, from the better known inscriptions from the second millennium B.C.

NK: You know, but to underline for our listeners or remind them, archaeological excavations in Syria have not been possible at all since the start of the war in 2011. Do you think do you dream about going back and trying to do more work on your theory?

GS: Well, of course I dream about going back. We, the last time I was there, which was in 2010, we excavated a tomb. And, you know, there are at least 10 tombs in the complex. And the tomb had all sorts of interesting objects in it, which we never really got a chance to study. So I dream of going back not only to dig, but simply to try to do some research on those objects and record them and make drawings of them. But unfortunately, I don't know what condition they're in or where they are. I know where I left them, but I don't know now you know what their situation might be.

NK: I appreciate your time, Glenn. Thank you.

GS: And you're welcome.

CH: Glenn Schwartz is an archaeologist at Johns Hopkins University, and we reached him in Boston.

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Alice Brock Obit.

CH: In 1965, American singer songwriter Arlo Guthrie had an eventful Thanksgiving. He kicked it off by hanging out with his friend Alice Brock, and he ended it in jail where Ms. Brock came to bail him out. In between, he and another friend had hauled a bunch of garbage from Ms. Brock's house to the town dump, but finding it closed threw the garbage over a small cliff instead. Mr. Guthrie was so inspired by the day's events that he wrote the 18 minute long anti-war song "Alice's Restaurant". In the song's satirical version of events that littering conviction ends up getting Mr. Guthrie out of the draft for the Vietnam War because he wasn't considered moral enough to go kill people. The song is just really more of a story with the chorus. Didn't have much to do with Ms. Brock or her restaurant, but it made her famous nonetheless, especially after the release of a few years later of "Alice's Restaurant", the movie which she reportedly disliked for its unrealistic depiction of hippies. Alice Brock died late last week. She was 83. She continued to be a free spirit throughout her life, running several restaurants before becoming an artist and author. Here she is explaining her approach to food and life in a 2007 essay for NPR.

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ALICE BROCK: Just because you only have six plates and three glasses is no reason why you can't invite 12 people to dinner. You can drink out of a jelly jar or a tin can. And there are lots of things you can use for plates like hubcaps lined with tin foil. I once made a steak dinner in an apartment that had only one knife. We used scissors. It was quite memorable. I believe in improvising. It's exciting. It's an adventure, a challenge, and a chance to be creative. Not being locked into a plan or a prescribed way of doing something leaves room for all kinds of wonderful stuff to happen. I didn't study how to own and run a restaurant. I pretty much made it up as I went along. I was swept up with the idea, the fantasy of having a restaurant, the chance to make something happen. And of course, making money at it was way down on the list of what mattered. And that allowed me the freedom to focus on creating something really wonderful.

CH: That was Alice Brock in an essay for NPR.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 25, 2024

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