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The AIH Transcript for November 22, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A big honking deal. He was one of the organizers of the protests that filled the streets of Ottawa with trucks and a cacophony of horns. And today, a judge found Pat King guilty on five charges.

CH: Cold comfort. In 2022, a family froze to death trying to cross the Canada-U.S. border in a blizzard. Today, a jury found two of the men who sent them on that fatal journey guilty of human smuggling.

NK: Stand and don't deliver. A week into the strike at Canada Post, one worker tells us who she is on that picket line for.

CH: Too cruel for school. One of the largest public school districts in the U.S. reaffirms itself as a sanctuary district and prepares to face what Donald Trump's crackdown on immigration will mean for students.

NK: Out of its depth. A long and I mean long, deep sea creature nicknamed the 'Doomsday Fish' washes up on a California shore. And an expert tells us that despite its apocalyptic nickname, this is actually good news.

CH: Yeah, for him. And for the crater good. The Canadian Space Agency invites the public to help choose a name for Canada's first ever rover mission to the moon. But they're keeping a tight rein on the options for 'Reasonsy McReasonfaces' we don't understand. As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that thinks they're being a little rover-protective.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Pat King Decision, Canada Post Strike, Ont. Cycling Lawsuits, "Doomsday" Fish

Pat King Decision

Guest: Paul Champ

CH: For a month and a day. It snarled traffic in the capital and tormented locals with constant honking. And now there's been a conviction over the Ottawa convoy protest. In the winter of 2022 the anti-government anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine demonstrations took over the city's streets. And today, an Ottawa judge found Pat King, a key figure in the protests, guilty of five charges, including mischief, counselling to commit mischief and disobeying a court order. Mr. King was not convicted on charges of intimidation, counselling to commit intimidation and obstructing a public or peace officer. Paul Champ is an Ottawa lawyer who's representing local citizens who were affected by the protests in a separate class action suit against the organizers, including Pat King. We reached Mr. Champ in Ottawa.

NK: Paul Champ, is this the result in Pat King's case that you and your clients were hoping for?

PAUL CHAMP: Well, I think for all people in downtown Ottawa, the conviction did seem a bit inevitable. The evidence against Mr. King was pretty overwhelming. And obviously the people who live and work in downtown Ottawa knew what happened to them over the over that difficult month in February 2022. And this is a conviction that we were you know, we were anticipating.

NK: You were anticipating this kind of conviction. What kind of sentence are you anticipating?

PC: Yeah, the sentence will be interesting. I mean, Mr. King, as you may know, spent five months in custody already. I suspect he is not going to get any further jail time, which I think is reasonable. You know, he's already spent quite a bit of time behind bars for that. Will there be, you know, other conditions on him, we'll have to wait and see what the judge does.

NK: Does that sit well with you and your clients? Do you believe he should spend more time in custody?

PC: I personally, I don't think he should spend more time in custody. I think, you know, for mischief of that nature, I think five months is frankly far too long. He was, you know, kept behind bars that long because he was breaching in some of those conditions. You know, at the end of the day, the convoy protests in Ottawa, the people who were here, you know, as they like to say, you know, repeatedly, they you know, they weren't out committing violence against people in the streets or doing random vandalism or destroying property in that way. They were protesting, but it was just some of the things they were doing really did go too far and were, you know, designed to harm the people in Ottawa in a different way. So it's, I don't think it's a sentence where this guy should be behind bars for a very long time.

NK: Pat King's lawyer told the court he was a peaceful protester who was simply exercising his civil liberties and right to protest. As you mentioned, he has spent several months in detention already as these proceedings played out. What does this conviction, though, say to you about the right to political protests in Canada?

PC: Well, I think, you know, the debate or discussion about what happened in the Freedom Convoy protest has become, you know, very politicized, which I think is really unfortunate. You know, the people in Ottawa who live and work in downtown Ottawa are very used to political protests. We've had protests that are much larger than the freedom convoy protest in terms of numbers of people. But it was the manner in which this protest was being carried out. It wasn't simply blocking the streets. It was blocking the streets completely for weeks. And the semi-tractor trucks that were running 24/7, the diesel fumes, the smog that hung around downtown. And then finally, you know, and most disturbingly, was the horn honking, you know, those very high decibel train horns that are on these trucks were being blown, you know, non-stop all hours of the day and night. And it was, you know, was really driving the people in downtown Ottawa crazy. It was awful. And it was designed to harm the people of Ottawa. So it is, I don't think it says much about political protest generally, because this wasn't the way that we're used to protesting in Canada.

NK: In January Noa Mendelsohn Aviv, of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, was on our show after a federal judge ruled it was unlawful for the government to invoke the Emergencies Act to shut down the convoy protest. She agreed that those measures infringed on the Charter rights of protesters. So what would you say to Canadians who may even vehemently disagree with Pat King and what happened, but are concerned about the steps taken to dismantle the demonstration that he helped lead?

PC: Yeah, you know, I think I sympathize actually with the people in that convoy protest who felt that maybe the federal government went too far and the steps that they took to dismantle the protest. You know, we had a public inquiry about that. And I think that the public inquiry really revealed a lot of what was happening. We had a breakdown of government between, you know, the municipal, provincial and federal levels of government. They weren't communicating effectively. You know, there was jurisdictional. Conflicts about who was responsible for what. And, you know, the people who just live in downtown Ottawa were abandoned and kind of caught in the middle. I think that, you know, the municipal government and the city police and the provincial police probably could have brought that protest to an end sooner than they did. But I can tell you one thing. I know that all the people in Ottawa certainly were relieved when, you know, when that chaos finally came to an end with the emergency that.

NK: Pat King was not convicted of, the charges of intimidation and counselling intimidation. What do you take away from that? What did that tell us about the way the judge may have seen things roll in these protests?

PC: Well, you know, it's interesting. The leaders of the Freedom Convoy, you know, who are having their trials now, Mr. King, And there's also Tamara Leach and Chris Barber. They largely aren't contesting that there was criminal activity in downtown Ottawa, that there was mischief. You know, broadly speaking, and maybe intimidation going on. But they're just saying that they weren't responsible for it, they weren't counselling it. So, you know, was Mr. King responsible for, you know, some of the more aggressive tactics of the protesters while, you know, he had his trial and the judge found that he was not. But was he responsible for, you know, the greater mischief, you know the, as the judge described it, the malicious conduct that was intended to harm the people of downtown Ottawa with non-stop horn honking and the blocking of streets causing gridlock. Yeah. He was responsible for that and that's why he was convicted.

NK: In terms of the case where you're representing people in Ottawa in this class action against Pat King and other protest organizers, you said that you were originally reluctant to take this case on. Why?

PC: Well, I mean, it has obviously triggered a debate about political protest in Canada and what is proper political protest. You know, I live and work in downtown Ottawa, not right in the red zone, as we called it, when that protest was going on. And, you know, for the first week, I really had to kind of think about, you know, my own beliefs in the right of protest and civil liberties. I've represented protesters and spoken about the right to protest and freedom to protest. And it took me a long time to realize this one has crossed the line. The 400 semi-trucks that were blocking all streets non-stop, the people who were, you know, literally crying in their homes because of these horns going off non-stop day and night for, you know, 10 days. And so I, I just I felt like something had to be done. The city wasn't taking any steps. The city police wasn't taking any steps. We weren't hearing anything from the RCMP or the OPP. And it just felt like, you know, everyone in downtown Ottawa was being held hostage. So that's why I ended up taking it on.

NK: Thanks for this, Paul.

PC: Yes, thank you, Nil.

CH: Paul Champ is an Ottawa lawyer representing residents affected by the 2022 convoy protests. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Canada Post Strike

Guest: Basia Sokal

CH: It's been a week now since Canada Post workers went on strike and there seem to be no signs of movement at the bargaining table. Canada Post says it is dealing with massive deficits, 315 million in the past quarter alone, and that workers are asking for too much, including a 24 per cent raise over four years. Workers say the company is focusing on wage demands to distract from other sticking points, like the creeping use of part time temporary workers who don't earn pensions or other benefits. Basia Sokal is a letter carrier in Nova Scotia who was a temp for two years in Winnipeg before getting a permanent role. We reached her in Kentville, Nova Scotia.

NK: Basia, what was it like out there on the picket line today?

BASIA SOKAL: I'll be honest, it was pretty cold today. After a week on the lines, it's the coldest day, the windiest day. It's been raining all day in Kentville and just kind of across the province. So it was pretty chilly.

NK: What kind of interactions are you having with people who live in the areas who's, you know, who live on the route that you walk?

BS: Sure. So the post office we are picketing at is right downtown Kentville. It's a small town, but I'm pretty lucky because the route that I'm picketing on is my route, I deliver mail there. So a lot of the folks walking by are actually my personal customers. One of my customers who is terminally ill, he has brain cancer, brings his dog Milo to the picket line every day. And as much as it makes me want to cry right now, it's really makes my problem of being on the picket line really, really small. So I'm really grateful. And, you know, I'm not the only one.

NK: You were a temp worker, as I understand it, for Canada Post. You're a permanent one now, you're a permanent Canada Post staff member. What's at the heart of this strike for you personally?

BS: For me, working conditions. I've been a letter carrier for 15 years. The working conditions have gotten tougher and tougher. You know, climate change is a big effect on workers that work outside. It's gotten really tough to do the job with, you know, the wages that we have and the benefits that we have. And one of the big things is that I don't believe that I'm, I and my co-workers are prepared to sell out those that come behind us.

NK: You've also talked about concerns for folks who are still temporary workers when it comes to uniforms, when they start with Canada Post. What's happening there?

BS: Right. I find that that's a major issue and a big safety concern. So right now, when you start a Canada post, you do not get one piece of clothing issued by Canada Post. You are required to just use your own clothing. So say if you're starting in the winter, you're expected to have the proper attire to go deliver mail in the, on all conditions. If it's the summer, you know, you're burning through t-shirts or shorts or what have you. And one of the things that the public might not realize is this creates a security issue. It doesn't build a good brand of trust among the public. When you have somebody that is, you know, maybe wearing basketball shorts and a t shirt and a yellow vest delivering your mail, I think that creates a big concern for folks when they see, well, who is that touching my mail? And for those of us who do get an allowance for clothing, which you do when you're permanent. We try our best to share our clothing, but we all are assigned clothing in our own sizes. And it's very difficult to share with multiple people. And the amount of temporary workers that are hired at Canada Post. And it has been mentioned many times when I train folks that they don't feel really proud to work for Canada Post when they don't look the part.

NK: In terms of wages. Canada Post is offering 11.5 per cent increases over four years. Your union is asking for substantially more, an increase of nearly 24 per cent over four years. As you may have seen, Canada Post is reporting a 315 million dollar deficit just in the last quarter and says it's you know, it's struggling in a, quote "increasingly crowded and highly competitive e-commerce delivery market" unquote, in that climate is nearly 24 per cent too much to ask for.

BS: If I were to take my allowance and spend it at the candy store and then tell my family that I don't have any money for bread and butter because I spent my allowance at the candy store, I think asking for 25 per cent would definitely seem or, you know, 24 per cent would definitely seem out of line. And that's what's happening with the messaging at Canada Post, right? They're telling us that we aren't worth the 24 per cent raise, but it's okay for management to be handing out bonuses to themselves. And the other part of this is they're investing it in infrastructure. If you don't want to invest in us. Then why are you investing in bonuses, more management and more infrastructure when you're losing money.

NK: You mentioned the support you're getting from residents who live near where you are picketing that post office. We spoke with a small business owner, also from Nova Scotia. You know, she makes greeting cards out of her home and mails them out. And she said clearly she wants workers like you. She said that clearly in our interview, that she wants workers like him to get a fair deal. But she is very concerned, as others are, that this is going to have an impact on her livelihood, on her business, particularly at this time, the holiday time, which is so lucrative. There are others who are waiting for passports that are being held back by Service Canada. You know, for some, it's not about travel. It's about, you know, it could be the difference between losing a job. So what do you say to folks who are worried that this strike is going to drag on?

BS: Yeah, And those are definitely valid concerns. 55 thousand of us postal workers on the picket lines, we are customers of Canada Post as well. And we feel this, right. We don't just feel it financially because we're not at work and we don't have benefits. We are the customers of these small businesses. We all want to make sure that we are able to shop at these small businesses and support these small businesses with a fair wage. And without that, we won't be able to do that.

NK: You know, the federal government has intervened recently in similar labour disputes, rail and port workers we're talking about there. Do you sense that you might be sent back to work or into binding arbitration?

BS: The reality of it is I have that in the back of my mind all the time and some days it does feel like Canada Post is just waiting for that to happen. It wouldn't be the first time. I don't believe it would be the last. And that's what's really the frustrating part here, is we've been negotiating at the table since November 2023, and Canada Post's first offers to postal workers, to CUPW didn't come until October 2024, so nearly a year later. There's no reason that we need to be here a year later when Canada Post had ample opportunity to resolve this. So while I do think that, you know, that may be inevitable, I don't believe that binding arbitration is the best solution for anyone here.

NK: Basia, appreciate your time. Take care.

BS: Thank you.

CH: Basia Sokol is a letter carrier in Kentville, Nova Scotia. And that's where we reached her.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Ont. Cycling Lawsuits

CH: This week, the Ontario government made controversial amendments to an already controversial bike lane bill. That bill would allow the provincial government to remove municipal bike lanes in Toronto and elsewhere. The amendments would not allow people to sue the government if they get hurt on roads where bike lanes have been removed. Opposition leaders and cycling advocates are pushing back, including David Shellnut. He's a lawyer who specializes in biking law and he spoke with the CBC earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID SHELLNUT: I think from the beginning, we've known that this attack on people who ride bikes is political. This kind of cloak and dagger manoeuvre to insulate themselves from the injury, death and devastated families that will flow from ripping out bike lanes is part and parcel for this government. People across Ontario should be really concerned.

JILL DEMPSEY: Why do you say it's political?

DAVID SHELLNUT: Because we've, in their internal memos which also leaked yesterday, know that or said that the congestion will be in fact made worse by removing bike lanes. There's no data, there's no reports. There's no studies that say that removing bike lanes from roads will help the serious issue of congestion that many people in Toronto are facing. So if you're proposing a plan that doesn't have any merit, there's something else behind it, it's probably a provincial election. I think that, number one, if you were worried about taxpayer money, you wouldn't rip out bike lanes you paid to put in. You wouldn't cause huge congestion issues by ripping out those bike lanes. There is law in Ontario. There's common law and there is justice. And you can't do things negligently and dangerously to your neighbour that causes them injury and get away with it. And that same principle that applies to you and I should apply all the way up to the Premier. It really strikes us as something that we in the West often point our fingers across overseas and say, Hey, look at that government doing an undemocratic thing. Look at them being unlawful towards their citizens. And here it's happened right here in our home. Whether you're a Conservative, NDP, Liberal, bike lane lover or bike lane hater, if you are seeing a provincial government, put your fellow citizens in harm's way like this and acting undemocratically and illegally, you should really be concerned.

CH: That was personal injury lawyer David Shellnut speaking with the CBC's Jill Dempsey earlier today on Metro Morning.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

"Doomsday" Fish

Guest: Ben Frable

CH: It is not the type of fish you'd find yourself rooting for in "Finding Nemo". In fact, when my colleagues saw an image of the deep sea creature, their reactions ranged from "Ahhh" to "Why is it so never ending?" and back to "Ahhh". And that was before I even mentioned that it is sometimes called the "doomsday fish" and considered a harbinger of disaster. Yay. But when Alison Laferriere stumbled upon one of these oarfish during a recent dog walk on the beach, she actually did say 'yay' silently, probably to herself because she was able to recognize what it was and she knew that her colleagues, who are experts in the field, would be interested. So she reached out to them at UC San Diego's Scripps Institution of Oceanography, and that is where Ben Frable comes in. He's the Marine vertebrate collection manager there and he's preserving the specimen in a tank right now. We reached Ben Frable in San Diego, California.

NK: Ben, so you get an email in your inbox. It's an all-staff email, sometimes folks ignore those. Are you happy you didn't ignore this one?

BEN FRABLE: Yeah, definitely. So it was from Alison, who's a PhD student at the institution with some beautiful photographs. You know, she was like, I think this was an oarfish. It was, it's been in the news because one washed up back in August and made quite the splash around here. So as soon as I saw it, I was like, my gosh. I need to know if it's still there. [blah, blah, blah].

NK: [laughs] It's interesting you use the word beautiful. Others, as our listeners have heard, use different words to describe those images. But after Alison reaches out with the help of a fisheries team from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, you get your hands on this fish. As someone who has studied fish for 20 years, was it another layer of excitement on top of that initial reaction to see it up close?

BF: Certainly, yeah. You know, I manage a large collection of preserved fish specimens and we already have a good number of oarfish specimens. So I have seen oarfish. But you know, when they're preserved, the colours faded. A lot of times they're not intact. So getting to see a fresh specimen with a bright silver skin and that bright red fin and just the full scale of it laid out was pretty, pretty astounding.

NK: You're making them sound quite magical, but let's get down to it. How big are these, how are these oarfish? For our listeners who haven't seen the pictures.

BF: Yeah, this one that washed up is about 3.3 metres long. And they've been recorded up to about eight metres with some kind of unconfirmed or estimated reports from partial specimens that might take them up to about 10 or 11 metres, which is quite large. This is considered the longest bony fish, which is non shark fish, the longest fish period, is the whale shark. But these guys are getting up there.

NK: Why was this fish so important that you wanted to transfer it to your lab? You know, why not leave it on the beach.

BF: When these wash up, especially this type of fish. They're very rare encounters for us, right. This one, as far as we know, is about the 22nd oarfish are scientifically recorded. This washed up in California since 1901. That doesn't give us a very large sample size. So each specimen can really provide a lot of insight into these animals that we don't get to interact with on a very regular basis or see much at all. So having that specimen, rather than just, you know, leaving it on the beach allowed us to take samples. But now I'm also able to preserve it into the marine vertebrate collection here at Scripps. And it can be continued to be studied and used by researchers for decades, if not even further in the future.

NK: How much do you know about the life history behaviours as well of these oarfish?

BF: Yeah, we still know relatively little just because of how rarely they are encountered. They have been filmed kind of in the wild a few times. If folks have ever watched the show River Monsters, there's actually an episode where they filmed an oar, swimming with an oarfish.

NK: No, I haven't [laughs] I don't know if I will.

BF: But from what we've seen, they kind of hover in the water vertically with their head up and kind of use that bright red fin that goes down their back. They undulate that fin, they're going to hover in place, and then they put their pelvic fins, which are those little things on their belly that are kind of one long spine that comes out. And this is where they get their name, Oarfish, because at the end of these fins, they have a little palp and it kind of looks like a paddle for a boat or an oar and they kind of just hover in place. And what they're doing is they're looking for shadows against the sunlight above of prey swimming above them and their main prey item, even though they do kind of look ferocious and get pretty big or actually very small shrimp like creatures called krill.

NK: You clearly love them, but you know that people are frightened of them. The 'doomsday fish' terminology you've heard as well.

BF: Oh, certainly.

NK: What do you say to people who are terrified?

BF: I mean, I say it's probably nothing to worry about. If you look at the numbers and as a team of researchers in Japan did back in 2019, where they looked at, looked for a correlation. They applied multivariate statistics to deep sea animal stranding’s, about 400 of them, oar fish and other things that have washed up in Japan and try to correlated with things like natural disasters, tsunamis, earthquakes. They found pretty much no correlation whatsoever. So at least in terms of, you know, being harbingers of doom or predictors of earthquake, they don't seem to be any better than, you know, dowsing rods or for finding water or something like that.

NK: It's a hard reputation to shake, though.

BF: Yeah, definitely. But it's evocative as well. So, you know, I think it can have a benefits for broadening public awareness and interest in these creatures, even if it is at the cost of this kind of fanciful idea.

NK: Why do you think that the three of them have washed up on Southern California shores, though, in recent months? Why so many?

BF: Yeah, that's a great question that we still don't really have a good answer to. When these have washed up in the past, not just here in California, but this these do occur all over the world and they do wash up all over the world. They do seem to kind of within a year wash up in, you won't just see one. You'll see a couple when that does happen. So that might indicate that maybe these, you know, these fish are moving around and are in a specific location for a year or two and then move up, move away from that location. So while they're here, if they're disoriented or sick or dying or we don't really know why they'll eventually wash on the beaches. Some people have thought when deep, deep sea animals wash up, it's related, especially here in the Pacific, to the El Nino La Nina cycle that changes kind of water temperature masses off the coast and can affect where these animals are living. But we had a bit of an El Nino earlier this year, but it's not particularly strong or, you know, any different than what's been seen. So, [NK: You're not worried] we'll see. Yeah.

NK: Well, maybe you are a little worried. You're just being careful.

BF: Yeah, we'll see if more keep washing up. But, you know, it's not like the kind of thing where these are saying there's something really bad happening. Because if there was something bad happening in the ecosystem, we wouldn't just see a couple of random fish. We'd see a lot of other organisms also showing up on our beaches.

NK: I appreciate your time, Ben. Thanks for this.

BF: Yeah.

CH: Ben Frable is the marine vertebrate collection manager at UC San Diego's Scripps Institution of Oceanography, and he's in San Diego.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Part 2: Minn. Smugglers Verdict, L.A. Sanctuary Schools, Maude Charron Fairy, CSA Moon Rover

Minn. Smugglers Verdict

Guest: Caitlyn Gowriluk

CH: They were trying to reach the United States and it cost them their lives. In 2022, Jagdish and Vaishali Patel and their two children, aged 3 and 11, were found frozen to death in Minnesota by Border Patrol agents. They had walked there from Manitoba through a blizzard on a day when the temperature was around -35. Steve Shand and Harshkumar Patel helped arrange the border crossing from Manitoba. Today, a Minnesota jury found them guilty of four counts of human smuggling. Caitlyn Gowriluk is a CBC News reporter who's covering the criminal trial. We reached her in Fergus Falls, Minnesota.

NK: Caitlyn, I know you spoke with a member of the jury after the case, after their deliberations wrapped. What did they tell you?

CAITLYN GOWRILUK: The man that we spoke to said that he just, the jurors were really convinced by the evidence that the prosecution presented against the two accused. He said there wasn't a ton to discuss, really. And we know it didn't take the jury very long. It was maybe a little over an hour that they were deliberating before they came back with their verdict on all the counts. And he said one thing that really stood out for him and he thinks for some of the other jurors, was that they were all really just so saddened by the Patel family's story. Right. Like he said, he grew up in North Dakota, sort of similar area near the border. He knows how brutal the winters can be there. And he said, I just couldn't imagine having to do what they did up there that night, he told us.

NK: In terms of some of the testimony you heard and evidence that was presented, another migrant who survived that same border crossing as the Patel family testified, as I understand it, during this trial, what did that migrant say in court about what he experienced that day and with the Patel family?

CG: So it really a lot of it, his testimony focussed on just how scared he was through the whole process. So his name is Yash Patel. He's 23 now. He's from India originally, and he told us a bit about the journey he made. He came from Gujarat in India to Toronto, and then he said he got shipped to Vancouver, back to Toronto, and then finally was brought to the Winnipeg area and was taken to a house in Winnipeg with a group of, he said, maybe 6 or 7 other migrants before they were brought to the border that night. And that was the same night that we know the Patel family, who died the same night that they were trying to cross the border. He said he remembers seeing the family in the group with him and they were all dropped off basically in the middle of a blizzard and told to just walk straight, walk across the border until you see a vehicle waiting on the other side for you. But he said the weather was so bad, like we know it was freezing, freezing cold. They were walking together at first, but it didn't take very long for them to get separated from each other. And that's when he said he got really scared. He said, you know, I wanted help, but there was no one around. I couldn't see anyone. You're sort of in the middle of nowhere.

NK: How did he manage to survive?

CG: He said he just kept walking because he thought, What else could I do? And he said I was scared. I just knew I needed to keep moving so I could find this vehicle and by some miracle was able to do that. And so was one of the other migrants.

NK: There was also testimony from another convicted smuggler who said that the Patel family reached out for help that night, the night they died. What did he say happened?

CG: That guy's name is Rajinder Pal Singh. So he actually is also a convicted human smuggler. He talked about how he ran a smuggling operation over in British Columbia where he said he would help move people over that border into the U.S. illegally. And he said through sort of this broader human smuggling network, he was in touch with the person who he says was responsible for sending people to Manitoba to cross the border there, including the Patel family. And he says that person told him that the Patel family called [inaudible] for help that night. They were crossing, they said, it's too cold, our kids can't take it. And Rajinder Singh said that [inaudible] Patel told the family, just turn around, go back to Canada, you have visas for Canada, go back there. And that was sort of it, they were just left out there, according to him.

NK: The men found guilty today, Steve Shand and Harshkumar Patel, we should say Harshkumar is not related to the Patel family, but evidence in the trial showed that Steve Shand was driving a van the Patel family was supposed to find after leaving Manitoba Harshkumar Patel sent Shand payments. Just tell our listeners briefly how the scheme is supposed to work.

CG: So we know, Steve Shand and Harshkumar Patel both lived in Florida. That's where they met. Steve Shand was a cab driver there, Harshkumar Patel recruited him to drive. So Harshkumar would do sort of organizing or the logistics of the trips would tell Steve Shand, Go to this location, this day, this time. Steve Shand would drive to a location near the border, would pick up the migrants after they'd walked over and then would drive them typically to somewhere in the Chicago area.

NK: And the two men, as came out in court, were exchanging text messages that night. What did those messages reveal?

CG: So those texts were about, they really shed light on kind of an issue that they had that night, and that's that when Steve Shand was driving to the border in the blizzard conditions, his, the van he was driving got stuck. So we heard in court some really, like panicked sounding texts right between these two guys. Patel texting Shand, are you still stuck? Are you out? And hours and hours are going by and the migrants are still out walking looking for him. Harshkumar Patel is trying to urge him, you know, turn your lights on, flash them, do something, please, so they can find you. So it really kind of shows their mindset during that night.

NK: Our listeners may remember a little bit about this family, Caitlin, but they are the ones at the centre of this. Just tell our listeners who this family was.

CG: They were a family of four from India. They had come to Canada and were planning to cross over into the U.S. It sounds like they were excited to be doing that from what we've heard. It was two parents, Jagdish and Vaishali Patel, their two kids, and it really was one of the more heartbreaking parts of this pretty difficult trial, seeing the photos of the family and then the photos of them where they were found in the field near the border that night. You can see Jagdish, the dad with his two kids, is three year old son in his arms. He's covering his face, trying to protect him from the cold. His daughter's nearby. The dad has sort of opened his jacket. Maybe he was trying to keep his son warm in there. And then a little ways away from that, we saw a photo of where viciously the mom was found sort of slumped over near a fence. And on the other side of that fence, there was a gas plant sort of seeming like she had gone out trying to get help for her family and just wasn't able to do that.

NK: What comes next? When can we expect sentencing?

CG: Sentencing has been set for March for both of them. And in the meantime, Harshkumar Patel remains in federal custody. He has been since his arrest earlier this year. He was brought into court in handcuffs every day. Steve Shand is still out of custody and will continue to be until sentencing. They're going to do sort of similar to Canada pre-sentence report that will shed light on some of the factors that should or shouldn't play a role in whatever their sentencing will be. And we did also Steve Shand's lawyer didn't want to talk to media today, but we did briefly talk to Harshkumar Patel's lawyer, who said he's disappointed in the verdict and is going to consider potentially appealing it. So we'll see how that goes going forward.

NK: Caitlin, thank you for this.

CG: Thank you.

CH: Caitlyn Gowriluk is a journalist for CBC News who was covering the trial of two men found guilty of human smuggling in the death of the Patel family in 2022. We reached her in Fergus Falls, Minnesota.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

L.A. Sanctuary Schools

Guest: Kelly Gonez

CH: Before Donald Trump returns to the White House the second largest school district in the United States is making its position clear. This week, the Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education unanimously adopted a resolution reaffirming itself as a sanctuary district and the city of Los Angeles, moved forward with a similar declaration. President-elect Donald Trump made a crackdown on immigration a central part of his campaign, and he has vowed to deport millions of undocumented immigrants. Kelly Gonez is a school district board member. We reached her in Los Angeles.

NK: Kelly, how many of the students in your district are you worried about? Should these mass deportations that Donald Trump is promising actually happen?

KELLY GONEZ: Well, the majority of students that we serve in the Los Angeles Unified School District do come from immigrant families. And we know that approximately 22 thousand of our students themselves are new arrivals to this country. So, it's a concern for many, many of the families that we serve here in L.A. and for myself, even as the daughter of an immigrant.

NK: Not all the new arrivals would be in a precarious situation, though.

KG: I think that, you know, the harsh rhetoric of the campaign and Trump's promises to enact mass deportations has created fear beyond maybe the specific immigrants that he purports to target. It's just widespread fear and concern among immigrant students and families. And it might not be themselves, but members of their family, their neighbours, their loved ones could be impacted by these actions.

NK: Your district declared itself a sanctuary as far back as I understand it, as the 2016, 2017 school year. So why was this step necessary? Why was it necessary to reaffirm this now?

KG: You're right. We have been here before and we are proud of our long time status as a sanctuary district and in standing up for immigrants in a number of different instances. But I think given the widespread fear and concern that we heard from our students, our employees, our families, it was really important to reaffirm that we continue to stand as a sanctuary district and make it clear that we will do everything in our power under this incoming administration to protect our families and ensure that our schools are safe. And we really want that message to be heard loud and clear by the students and families that we serve here in Los Angeles.

NK: Is it a signal to them, but also to officials in Washington?

KG: Yes, it's both a message of reassurance for the students and families that we serve here in Los Angeles, as well as for our employees. And I think it's a message for Washington as well that no matter what actions they intend on taking, that we will not be cooperating with them and we will do whatever we can to fight for our community here in Los Angeles and continue to stand for the belief that immigrants make this country great and contribute so much and deserve to be protected, supported and celebrated.

NK: Part of this reaffirmation is also including training for teachers to deal with federal immigration authorities. What are these teachers being taught? What kind of training are they getting?

KG: You know, it's our teachers as well as, you know, our office staff, our campus aides, our principals. We want everyone to be really clear on what the district's policy is that we do not collect immigration information about students or families, and that we are not to allow immigration enforcement authorities onto our campuses. So because many of our employees may not have been around during the first Trump administration, we certainly wanted a refresher so that everyone is clear how to ensure that we abide by these policies, regardless of what situations are occurring. So that's the training component to make sure that we are all clear on what the district's policy means.

NK: As you may have seen, the Republican Party of L.A. County released a statement. It's been published in the media widely. And in it, it says in part, quote, so-called sanctuary cities and states sound warm and fuzzy, but the protections they offer aren't for Abuela's getting ice cream. They're for people who have entered the country illegally and committed additional crimes, end quote. Again, that is the state, from a statement from the L.A. County Republican Party. How do you respond to that statement and that sentiment which is clearly permeating a large part of the country?

KG: It's painful to hear that the lies about immigrants continue to be spread even by those here in Los Angeles. We know that the Trump campaign and Republicans in general have preyed upon xenophobia and targeted immigrants, sometimes focusing on extremely small, limited cases of criminality that may exist across the country. But research shows that that's not representative of the broader immigrant community. The reality is that they may be purporting to target criminals, but we know that this is causing pain for children in our communities. Thousands and thousands of children who are worried about their families. And it is not criminals that are bearing the brunt of these attacks but our babies and their parents.

NK: You've made other declarations as well to send a signal, perhaps again, of reassurance, but also to officials in Washington and particularly about the LGBTQ plus community.

KG: Yes, we know that there's a lot of pain and fear as well among our LGBTQ plus students, families and employees. And we want to make it clear as well that we continue to stand for all of our LGBTQ community members who are here in Los Angeles. And no matter what efforts are undertaken by the Trump administration to paint them as enemies, to attack them, we will continue to stand up for them and ensure that our classrooms are affirming places that celebrate every single one of our students and the unique assets that they bring to our communities.

NK: You've talked about this being painful. You've talked about worry. How are you doing?

KG: I'm a mom of two LAUSD students, three young kids. So I'm concerned. I'm really saddened and disheartened for the statement that this makes about our country. But I know that collectively, we here in L.A., we're 70 thousand strong in the Los Angeles Unified School District. And I'm proud that together we stand strong in the face of these attacks, and we'll do whatever we can to protect each other and protect our children. [Child voice interrupts] I'm sorry. My son is here.

NK: I was just going to say, was that was that one of your children What do you, thank you for making time for us in the middle of your busy day. I wonder what you do say to your children. They're not, you know, at risk in this way, but people, you can still feel othered. I can imagine.

KG: Yeah, we discussed how, you know, unfortunately a bully is going to be in the White House and that that is not what we believe in because we believe in being kind and treating others with kindness and showing love to others, even if they're different from us. So really trying to reaffirm that and help them understand protesting and what we can do in our power to fight back.

Kelly, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KG: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Kelly Gonez is a member of the Los Angeles Unified School District Board. She's in Los Angeles.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Maude Charron Fairy

CH: Maude Charron is not afraid to challenge herself. The Canadian weightlifter won gold in her Olympic debut in 2020, which is objectively impressive on its own. But shortly after that victory, the Olympic program removed her 64 kilogram event, which posed another challenge. To continue competing, Ms. Charron had to drop down to the 59 kilogram weight class, requiring her to significantly alter her training. But you can't argue with the results. This summer she won a silver medal in Paris, and this weekend Maude Charron faces a new challenge. Tomorrow, she'll be in Montreal's Santa Claus Parade, where she is this year's Star Fairy.

SOUNDCLIP

MAUDE CHARRON: I'm excited. I'm leaving my hometown this morning heading for Montreal. And then it will be costume fit. And then tomorrow probably pretty much a marathon of hair and makeup and everything and just like get myself into the role. The Star Fairy is an image of fulfilment, empowering, dreams, magic. I did a little bit of circus in my background too, so like to be able to jump in a new role was a nice challenge for me. So I obviously jump on that occasion. I've never seen it in person and so I'm very excited that my first time seeing it, I'll be in it. So yeah, I'm for sure really excited. I saw a little bit of what the cars looks like. What, like the parade would look like. It look amazing. And I cannot believe that you guys have that every year.

SEAN HENRY: Yeah. Hopefully it won't be your last time at the parade. Do you get a break for the holidays or are you going to continue to train and compete?

MAUDE CHARRON: So I'm, right now I'm trying to find a way to train without feeling obligated to train. So I just want to train and I do what I want. It's not necessarily lifting weights. I can just go for a run, do CrossFit, do gymnastic, climbing. I'm just trying to get a general fitness and figure out what I want to do next. I'm getting older now and I feel like there's something else I want to achieve in my life.

SEAN HENRY: First things first the Santa Claus Parade tomorrow.

MAUDE CHARRON: Exactly.

SEAN HENRY: Thank you for joining us. Have fun tomorrow.

MAUDE CHARRON: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: That was Olympic weightlifter Maude Charron speaking to Sean Henry, host of Daybreak in Montreal. Ms. Charron will be the Star Fairy in Montreal Santa Claus Parade tomorrow.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

CSA Moon Rover

CH: The Canadian Space Agency is hard at work on what will be Canada's first ever rover mission to the moon. The rover will explore the moon's South Pole, where the long lunar nights can go down to -200 Celsius. And scientists are working on a vehicle that will be able to withstand the extreme cold so it can confirm or deny the presence of water ice. So science wise, it is cool, but name wise, it is tepid. A space mission needs an inspiring name. And NASA has gone with names like Sojourner, Spirit, Curiosity, Perseverance, and the Canadian Space Agency has announced it wants the public's help to come up with something suitably uplifting. But it doesn't seem to want us to help too much. It just wants us to choose from a short list of names it's already made and we get to vote for our favourite. The names on that shortlist are Athabasca, Courage, Glacier and Pol-R. That's pol hyphen 'R' for some reason. Well, Canadian Space Agency terrific work on the science junk. But none of these names really capture the reduced gravity of the situation. There are fine. But they lack pizzazz. So I took the liberty of doing some brainstorming myself this afternoon. Nil, are you ready to hear these?

NK: Sure.

CH: Okay. Rove at first sight, because, you know, Rove... It's fun.

NK: Like Rove at first sight? [CH: Yes. That's...] Like love at first sight?

CH: That's yeah. [NK laughter] You don't seem thrilled by that. Okay. So hold on. Fair response. What about this one, though, Wheel-E. You know, like Wall-E.

NK: Wow. You are really outdoing yourself tonight.

CH: Your expression is, I can't read it.

NK: Is there sarcasm in my voice? Yeah.

CH: Okay, well, all right. They can't all be winners, apparently. Moving on, G'rover or G-hyphen-Rover. [NK laughs] You know, like Grover from...Okay. What about "Mooon Rooover" [sung like moon river] You have to sing it ... But if... No. Okay, Alan is just a [NK: It's just Alan.] Yeah, just Alan.

NK: Okay. Why not? Nil? [laughter]

CH: You know what, I'll take that under advisement. The Cosmic Groove machine.

NK: Better.

CH: Yeah. Okay. Rovers in a dangerous time.

NK: [laughs] Nice, Canadian tie in.

CH: Okay. All right. But you know what, I've learned something from this tough but fair criticism [NK laughs] naming lunar rovers is actually harder than I thought. I guess I can see why the official shortlist is so moonotonous.

NK: Come on.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Coronation Cost Report, Diane Coleman Obit., PigeonBot Two Creators

Coronation Cost Report

Guest: Graham Smith

CH: "A slimmed down affair". That's how one government spokesperson described the modest event, saying, quote, All efforts were made to keep costs to a minimum, unquote. Which explains why the price tag for the coronation of King Charles the third, turns out to be a mere 72 million pounds or 126 million Canadian dollars. And yet frugal as that is, some people are upset about it. Graham Smith is the head of the UK anti-monarchist group, Republic. And the author of the book "Abolish the Monarchy". We reached him in Reading, England.

NK: Graham, 72 million pounds. Did the UK get its money's worth?

GRAHAM SMITH: Well, no. I mean, you can't possibly get your money's worth for a large parade, costing 72 million pounds, which serves no particular purpose. I mean, this was a vanity pride for the king and it doesn't do us any good, it just costs us an awful lot of money.

NK: Is there any number that might have made you say, okay, maybe, you know, I don't love it, but that's not so unreasonable?

GS: Well, I mean, you know, it's difficult to put a number on it because it was a pointless parade in the first place.

NK: Unless it was free.

GS: If it was free, we ain't paying for it, then fine. But I mean, it's difficult to be free because it would have still costs London a lot of money because of the disruption. There's no need to have a coronation in the UK, there's no constitutional or legal need for it. We're the only European monarchy that has them. He could have simply said, look, you know, this is something which we don't need to do anymore. We can just have the secession and move on.

NK: What about tradition and the money that it brings in to London and the folks who came and..

GS: All the evidence from big royal events and other big events is that tourism actually goes down at these times because people stay away and don't want to get caught up in all the disruption. They want to be able to go and see places like Buckingham Palace and not be kept away because of the parades. In terms of tradition, I mean, you know, the coronation has changed over, over the centuries. The Swedish King said, look, you know, this is old fashioned, is dated and that I don't want to do these carnations anymore. And he said that in 1870. And if he said that and it is, I think 150 years later, we could have made the same conclusion.

NK: There was an assertion that this was a scaled back royal event. And we've heard about King Charles wanting to have, you know, a leaner monarchy. And when they compared it to the queen's funeral, it was estimated to be the cost, double the cost that this coronation was. So they're saying that we did cut back. This is cheaper than it could have been.

GS: That is highly, highly questionable. I think the 72 million pounds is not the total cost. This is the cost met by two particular government departments. There's been research done in the months after the Queen's funeral that showed a lot of other state institutions such as the London Authority, lots of local councils, the fire brigades, transport for London, that runs the tube and all the buses. They all these institutions were facing large bills of millions of pounds. And, you know, this is just part of the cost. And of course, you know, the monarchy costs us half a billion pounds every year at least. It's a very expensive institution when the queen died, Charles did not pay a penny of inheritance tax, when in fact, everybody else has to pay inheritance tax over a certain threshold.

NK: The government's statement, let me just bring our listeners in on a little bit more of what the statement says, the King's coronation generated more than 1one hundred thousand news stories and reached a global audience of 2 billion people in 125 countries. They're saying people around the world care and they care a lot, including people in your country. So do those numbers count for anything in your view in terms of the attention and interest?

GS: Well, I missed that they use the 2 billion viewers figure. I hadn't noticed that because that is complete garbage.

NK: [Laughs] How do you know that?

GS: Well, I know that because I have a and a modicum of common sense and intelligence in my head. And I know that in a, on a planet of 8 billion, the idea that 2 billion is, are watching the parade in another country is complete nonsense. This was the same figure came out about the wedding. And a lot of journalists just did the math and said, well, clearly that cannot be true. For that to be true, you would have to have most of Europe watch it, you'd have to have people getting up in the middle of the night in China to watch it. And most of America watching it, it just clearly is not the case. And the point is that a lot of that news coverage was about the heavy handed policing and the arrests of peaceful protesters. And, you know, this was not a good day for them. The coronation was a dreadful advert where, for a country that was still caught up in this ridiculous institution of monarchy where people who legitimately protested against it and protested for democratic institutions were simply bundled off into police vans and arrested and thrown in police cells for the day. No, this was not a good advert. And it cost us a hell of a lot of money, a lot more than the 72 million pounds.

NK: Last year the Monarchist League of Canada calculated that Canada's ties to the House of Windsor cost Canadian taxpayers about 58.7 million dollars, or a dollar 55 Canadian per person, per year. The chair of that organization, Robert Finch, told CTV News, quote, "For less than a cup of coffee, we get a strong, stable system of good government that has stood the test of time, as well as a team of hard working vice regles whose activities help enhance the lives of everyday Canadians", unquote. That is from the Monarchist League of Canada and Robert Finch. What would you say to Robert Finch?

GS: Well, I think it's very odd. I mean, it's odd enough that we have this institution in this country. I think it's very odd that anybody who considers themselves to be a patriot of their own country thinks it's a good idea to have a foreign monarch as their head of state. Canada has its own strengths and stability and wealth and successes because of the hard work and ingenuity of Canadians. It has absolutely nothing to do with a billionaire sitting in a big house in London. And, you know, you can have a head of state doing a very similar job as Governor General without the attachment to the monarchy. And the same is true in New Zealand and Australia and elsewhere around the Commonwealth. So... [cross talk]

NK: There are people who really, really love the Queen, they love the monarchy and they completely disagree with you.

GS: Which is great. But you know, there's lots of people that love the Kardashians. It doesn't mean we should make them head of state and pay them through the taxpayer. You know.

NK: That's a name I did not expect to come up in this conversation with Graham, bravo.

GS: This is what it is. This is a celebrity family that rather than actually having any talent or skill or offering anything to the country, simply milk the taxpayer and demand to be bowed to. You know, that's not a serious institution that we should respect and love. And if some people are fans of them fine. There are fans of all sorts of things, but that's not an argument for having them in the in the Canadian or British constitutions.

NK: Thanks for this, Graham.

GS: No problem at all.

CH: Graham Smith is the head of the UK anti-monarchist group, Republic. We reached him in Reading, England.

[Music: Classical instrumental]

Diane Coleman Obit.

Guest: Bruce Darling

CH: Doctors expected Diane Coleman to die before she reached adulthood. But she proved them wrong. And she made disability rights her life's work. Ms. Coleman has died at the age of 71. She was born with muscular spinal atrophy and started using a wheelchair at the age of 11. Her experiences informed her advocacy, which included launching the Los Angeles chapter of Adapt, a disability rights group known for its protests. In the mid-nineties she turned her attention to advocating against assisted suicide. Here she is explaining why.

SOUNDCLIP

DIANE COLEMAN: Discrimination against people with severe disabilities pervades our society. Assisted suicide is the most lethal form of such discrimination applied only to people with significant health impairments, assisted suicide is the ultimate expression of society's fear and revulsion regarding disability.

CH: Disability rights activist Diane Coleman explaining the rationale that led her to form the advocacy group, "Not Dead Yet". Bruce Darling is the president and CEO of the Center for Disability Rights. He was also Ms. Coleman's friend and former colleague. We reached him in Rochester, New York.

NK: Bruce, it's clear in that clip that Diane Coleman was a woman who knew what she wanted, knew her own mind and fought for what she wanted to accomplish. You knew her for decades. Can you remember the first impressions you had of her?

BRUCE DARLING: My first impressions were awe; she was brilliant and amazing. And in the face of chaos, just calm and loving and warm. Everything I would want to be. And that's how I thought of her. She was really my mentor.

NK: Did she ever tell you of, about where that came from, that calm, that drive, that fight?

BD: Well, no, she didn't. And she didn't even need to because she navigated the world as a woman with a significant disability. And that, I think, coloured everything she did.

NK: Our listeners heard a little bit about her work with 'Not Dead Yet', but just tell us a little bit of, about the other changes she pushed for and advocated for.

BD: So Diane advocated to put lifts on public buses. It seems ridiculous nowadays that we would have to, have to fight for that. But back in the day when disabled people didn't have access to public transit, she was one of the leaders in the fight to accomplish that. She also worked to ensure that disabled people have a right to live in freedom and get services and supports in the community instead of being institutionalized. And Diane's work really did centre around folks with the most significant disabilities. And, you know, that was really where we connected. We understood the issues in that space, both assisted suicide and community based services. We saw the connections.

NK: I'm looking at a photograph that I understand hangs outside your own office door. Can you describe it for us and what it says to you about Diane?

BD: So it's an image of Diane, just a black and white photo. She is on the ground in front of her wheelchair with her head resting back on the seat. And there is a big, thick chain around her neck and she's leaning back. She looks like it's hot and she's tired. What I see in that photo is determination. The reason it's outside my office is it's, there's almost a religious sense to it for me. You see redemption through sacrifice. And that's what, that was a big part of Diane's life. She dedicated it to the advancement of people with disabilities. And that photo just sort of takes me back to that moment for her and reminds me about the fight that we're in and that we need to persevere.

NK: She's wearing a T-shirt that part of it that we can see says "Free our people", if I'm reading it correctly. And in the background, there's a line-up of police officers. This was just one of many protests she was a part of. She was arrested more than two dozen times just a few years ago even. You were arrested together, as I understand it.

BD: Yes. In 20... We were arrested together years ago in Boston, then again in 2017, just down the street from our office at the Republican headquarters when the U.S. was trying to obliterate Obamacare and Medicaid services under the prior Trump administration.

NK: Did you talk about that willingness, well, that both of you had, but certainly that she had to be out there in that heat to be arrested?

BD: Well, Diane understood that change doesn't come easily and power concedes nothing. So you have to fight for it. You have to fight for your freedom. You have to fight for your rights. And sometimes this civil disobedience is a part of that work. And the ableism that she described at the top of the piece. She understood how disabled people standing up to police and getting arrested, changed the dynamic. It changed how people see us. And she also understood that it changed how we see ourselves, that in participating in civil disobedience, we claimed our own power. And disabled people have come to me and said, after having gone through the experience, it transformed my life because I saw my oppression in a completely different way. Diane intuitively understood this and leverage that power for people with disabilities.

NK: You mentioned the kinds of issues she worked on and fought for. Assisted suicide in particular, fighting against Jack Kevorkian, saying it's discriminatory assisted suicide to people with disabilities. Why did she focus on that issue in particular?

BD: Well, she saw this as the ultimate form of discrimination. And for her, it was an affront. A disabled person says, I want to die. And people say, here, let me help you. Whereas someone else is told, no, we need to stop you from doing this to yourself. So that level of disparity, she just couldn't look away. And I think that she saw that before a lot of other people did. And that's why I think she stepped in. She saw a void and it needed to be dealt with.

NK: The name of the organization, 'Not Dead Yet', as we've said, was inspired by a Monty Python sketch about corpse collectors. Let's play a bit of that sketch for our listeners.

SOUNDCLIP

'Bring out your dead' clip from Monty Python.

BD: I love that you played that. She had a great sense of humour and an incredible laugh. And I think you have to laugh at the world when you're dealing with such terrible, terrible issues. We organized the protest in Chicago and disabled people went by the front desk into the hotel and started piling into rooms that we had rented. And she said dozens of disabled people will just go by the desk and they'll never know that it's a different person because they don't even look at us. And she just laughed at the situation, how we could navigate through the world to fight for our rights while leveraging that ableism. And she found it amusing.

NK: Is that laugh one of the ways you'll remember her?

BD: That is the first way I remember her. Every time I say her name, I just think about her laugh. The first time I heard it, she had come to a holiday party here in Rochester. She was visiting family. She had a glass of wine and just gave me a cheer and a little giggle. And it was just, you know, heartwarming.

NK: Bruce, I'm sorry for your loss. I appreciate your time, though. Please take care.

BD: Okay. Thank you so much.

CH: Bruce Darling is the president and CEO of the Center for Disability Rights. He was a friend and former colleague of disability rights activist Diane Coleman. He's in Rochester, New York. Ms. Coleman died earlier this month. She was 71.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

PigeonBot Two Creators

Guest: David Lentink

CH: Pigeons are divisive. Some appreciate them for their beautiful iridescent feathers and their gentle coo. But most people seem to consider them annoying at best and vermin at worst. And statues really don't have anything nice to say about them. But for David Lentink, pigeons are a source of inspiration and scientific discovery. By studying them, he's been able to develop robots that can fly and fly well, like the one he released four years ago. Now, in a new study published in New Scientist, Mr. Lentink and his team show that they've taken that research to the next level with their latest creation, the PigeonBot Two. David Lentink is a professor of Biomimetics at the University of Groningen. We reached him in Groningen, the Netherlands.

NK: Professor Lentink, how closely does PigeonBot Two replicate what birds do?

DAVID LENTINK: So what this robot does really precisely is changes the shape of its wings and its tail like a bird. And in that sense, it's really precise. It has actual bird feathers, and it moves just exactly the way a bird would do during flight.

NK: That gives us a sense of what it looks like and how it moves. Just give our listeners a bit more detail about how many feathers we're talking about and the motors involved.

DL: Basically, the robot has 52 feathers and these are controlled by nine servo motors. And by having that many servo motors, we're able to recreate the very special motions the birds make in flight with their tail and their wings.

NK: And where did you get the feathers?

DL: Feathers are actually quite magical. They are both soft and stiff, and they're super lightweight. And if we would try to recreate this, for example, with a 3D printer, we would need to actually create a structure with seven orders of magnitude. That's 10 million differences in scale, and there's no manufacturing technique that can do that. So feathers are much more exquisite than you would think, and they actually are perfect for our purpose.

NK: It's rare that we hear scientists use the word magical. That gives me a sense of what you might say next when you watch this. Is it an academic experience or an emotional one as well?

DL: First of all, very much an academic one. It's really curiosity driven. I was curious together with my PhD student, Eric Cheng. How come that birds can fly without a vertical tail. And that is actually to an aerospace engineer, quite magical because if you look at how we develop our passenger aircraft that you fly in quite frequently, if you go from A to B over long distances, they all have a vertical tail. So how come that aircraft need this, they really required it and that birds don't have it. There's no bird with a vertical tail out there. And that's a little bit of magic.

NK: And that tells us a little bit about how you went from the first version of your robot four years ago to PigeonBot Two. Does it still take your breath away when you watch it in motion?

DL: Yeah, absolutely. Because with the first PigeonBot, what we were able to recreate the fluid motion of a bird wing in the wing off PigeonBot. But the tail was really very much like a conventional aeroplane. So a horizontal stiff tail plane and a vertical tail plane to keep directional stability. And the fact that we've been able to remove this by creating a bird tail and actuating it entirely the way it's supposed to be in the robotic sense, that to me is really cool. And the fact that it can fly autonomous. So this is a robot that just can fly by itself and do something really complicated that no pilot could do by hand.

NK: How is your team feeling and the students?

DL: Well, we are all very excited when we first achieved this bird like flight because it has been a real challenge to do this. And to us it was a mystery too, right. So that's why we did the research. We didn't know how to do this when we started, it was really step by step how we figured it out.

NK: Ultimately, what does your research teach us when we're talking about designing aircraft?

DL: Well, the most important thing we found is that birds use reflexes to actually prevent themselves from sort of stumbling over turbulence. Like how we walk, we have special reflexes in our legs that enable us to not fall if we stumble. Well, aeroplanes and birds need to deal with turbulence in the atmosphere the whole time. So how come that birds can remain stable without this vertical tail and it turns out it's their reflexes. They automatically change the shape of their wing and their tail in a way that stabilizes them, that makes it vertical to obsolete. And now we understand how they do it. We can actually translate this to passenger aircraft. And you won't see this tomorrow because in general aviation, it takes 15 or 20 years before we believe something is safe and applicable. There's more research needed, but basically in the future, aeroplanes don't need a vertical tail anymore. It's really obsolete.

NK: And what will that do in terms of the experience of flying both for those flying those planes, but those passengers as well?

DL: Well, the passengers won't notice a difference because it flies very stable without a problem with this new solution inspired by birds. What it will do for us all is that actually this will make aeroplanes more economic. It just requires less fuel to fly. And that's actually really important.

NK: Cheaper tickets, perhaps, in addition to being more environmentally friendly, potentially.

DL: Who knows. But for sure, it will make aircraft a little bit lighter and it will also really help save fuel.

NK: Are you already working on Professor, PigeonBot three?

DL: No, I'm not.

NK: This is it. It is going to end at the second version?

DL: No, no. Like I am thinking about improving bird like robots further because to me they're really important, a model for understanding how birds fly. You can program a robot to do things that you cannot train a bird to do. So that's how you can figure out how come the birds fly so well? So for me, building bird like robots is really a means for understanding how birds fly so well. So for sure, I'll keep on doing that. But in terms of this robot answering definite questions for us, it did. Like, we want to understand how birds can fly without its vertical tail. And now we understand.

NK: Obviously, you studied pigeons very closely and for a long time to do this research and come to these conclusions. What else have these birds taught you?

DL: Well, pigeons are quite, quite special. They are underestimated by people quite easily. So they're under constant predation, for example, by peregrine falcons. So if you think about Toronto and you think about these really cool peregrine falcons, well, they actually don't have such a high success rate catching these pigeons in midair because they're super manoeuvrable. So they're humble. And sometimes people call them flying rats. However, they fly amazing and they really are on par with peregrine falcons because they succeed in escaping more often than you would think they could.

NK: Professor, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

DL: My pleasure.

CH: David Lentink is a professor of Biomimetics at the University of Groningen. He was part of the team that built the PigeonBot two. We reached him in Groningen, the Netherlands.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 22, 2024

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