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The Canada Reads 2024 Day Four Transcript

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Opening

ANNOUNCER: This is a CBC special presentation.

[tense game show music]

ALI HASSAN: It's our final day here on the great Canadian book debate. We started with five excellent titles. Each one carried us forward in different ways. Three books have been eliminated. Two are left, but only one can win. I'm your host, Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads.

[heavy rock theme]

ANNOUNCER: This is Canada Reads. Canada's annual title fight.

ALI HASSAN: Hello and welcome back. Joining me for the final time are this year's panellists. Former Calgary Mayor Naheed Nenshi. Actor and TIFF rising star Kudakwashe Rutendo. Filmmaker and CBC Sports contributor Dallas Sonnias. Fashion and beauty influencer Mirian Njoh and acclaimed poet and author Heather O'Neill. Now, before we get into today's debates -- and the final two titles -- let's start with the book that was eliminated yesterday. That was the novel Bad Cree by Jessica Johns. It was championed by

Dallas Soonias. Hi, Dallas.

DALLAS SOONIAS: [chuckling] How's it going, Ali?

ALI HASSAN: Oh, I'm great! Thank you for asking me.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Nobody asks you, man.

ALI HASSAN: Nobody asks me. I'm great. I want to maybe focus on you for a bit. You gave a very passionate defence for the novel all week. Tell us how you're feeling today.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I'm feeling tired. I didn't really sleep last night if I'm honest. Which doesn't make sense because a lot of people -- so many people -- reached out to me with so much support, which was so unexpected. So, thank you to everybody. But I didn't sleep because I'm fairly embarrassed about how I handled the show yesterday. So I wanted to apologize to the three of you about how, how I was trying to put you off your game and it didn't work, obviously. You guys are really --

NAHEED NENSHI: At least he's not apologizing to me, just saying.

DALLAS SOONIAS: [chuckle] You're good. This is what you do!

ALI HASSAN: Your game didn't need to be rattled at all, I see.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I really appreciate that, Dallas. And also, I think we all see where you're coming from. We are all friends and we are all passionate trying to uplift these amazing books.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Right.

MIRIAN NJOH: You know, friends tussle from time to time.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, every, [Dallas Soonias chuckles]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And I'll see you for dinner later! So --

MIRIAN NJOH: It's all good, boo.

DALLAS SOONIAS: You're right. [Mirian Njoh chuckles]

ALI HASSAN: If you'd like Dallas, this is a moment for you to remind Canada why they should all read Bad Cree.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Absolutely! Bad Cree by Jessica Johns, narrated -- or performed -- by Tanis Parenteau beautifully. I want to let people know if, if you take this physical book and you want to read this thing and you get sucked into it, but if you're like me, and the more you want to read something, the more your eyes start to dart around the page. And it's as though your eyes want to take in the entire page at once. And that's very frustrating. So, you may put that book down. [Dallas Soonias slams book down] Maybe you don't pick it up. If you experience books like that, I would suggest audiobooks. Because as it turns out, it's it takes away the whole decoding of reading a book. And it, it's a very different interface. You stick it right in the ear goggles like the Beastie Boys talking about, you know, strap on my ear goggles and I'm ready to go. It's a whole different experience. What you're using your brain for to decode, you then get to use to imagine what's happening in the book. And I can't think of a better book to start with other than Bad Cree by Jessica Johns. Because -- as I mentioned -- it is performed brilliantly by Tanis Parenteau. Okay, Ali, go for it.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Thank you, Dallas. Well, on Day Two, Denison Avenue by Christina Wong and Daniel Innes was eliminated. That was the book that Naheed Nenshi was backing. Hi, Naheed.

NAHEED NENSHI: Hello.

ALI HASSAN: On Day One, we said goodbye to Meet Me at the Lake by Carley Fortune. That feels like a long time ago. That book was championed by Mirian Njoh. Hi, Mirian.

MIRIAN NJOH: Hi.

ALI HASSAN: So, Dallas, Mirian, Naheed. You are free agents. These three people hold the power to decide which book will be eliminated and which book will win Canada Reads today. [game show music] Kudakwashe, you are championing one of the two books still in contention. It is the short story collection Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji. Your book has not had a vote casted against it all week.

MIRIAN NJOH: Not yet.

ALI HASSAN: How are you, how are you feeling going into the finals?

MIRIAN NJOH: I'm, I'm feeling very blessed. I think I mentioned that we are all championing these fantastic books and supporting these amazing communities. And I'm going to give it my all. And I'm very excited to communicate my love of reading and hopefully share it.

ALI HASSAN: Sure. Heather, your book is the other book in contention. The novel The Future by Katherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou. The Future has had votes against it every day. How confident are you feeling today?

HEATHER O'NEILL: I'm, you know, I'm, like Kudakwashe said, I'm just grateful that I've had the opportunity to meet these interesting minds and talk about literature -- my favourite subject -- with all of them. And it's really, it's been such a delight.

ALI HASSAN: All right. Well, I will say from my vantage point, the light, the delight has been palpable. I felt that you were clearly book lovers. But it's the final day. Let's do this.

[heavy rock theme]

Opening Defence

ALI HASSAN: Our two contenders will now make their opening statements for why their book should win Canada Reads. Kudakwashe, you'll be up first.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay.

ALI HASSAN: Here is the trailer for Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: In Galloway, [kids talk, a basketball bounces] life can be tough, but Loli is a survivor. Forced to grow up too fast. Longing for a sense of security, a sense of self. She ventures out into the neighbourhood [footsteps] and the world beyond its boundaries. But chaos and uncertainty follow her. [a thunderstorm rolls in] Yearning for a deep connection, she stumbles into uncharted territory. Slowly, she peels back the layers of her identity, femininity and sexuality, [a lighter flicks] as the shadows of grief, violence [a man grunts] and addiction creep [a pill bottle shakes] into her life, Loli turns to face the light and embraces the beauty in the struggle. [birdsong].

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, you have 60 seconds. Why should Shut Up You're Pretty win Canada Reads?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Why Shut -- [Canada Reads bell]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Sorry.

ALI HASSAN: My apology.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Why is Shut Up You're Pretty the one book all of Canada should read. Firstly, craft. Every word on the page works together to make a comprehensive portrait of life, leaving a story that makes an affecting first read -- as panellists have alluded. But even better, it is a book that gets more potent with each revisit. Téa Mutonji is a poet. You feel that energy in her work and the deliberate word choice. But Shut Up You're Pretty does all this, communicating art while remaining accessible. The everyday Canadian can read this book and derive a similarly potent experience as the voracious reader. But to touch on something I haven't yet. Shut Up You're Pretty opens up dialogue like all the best books do. And one of the biggest benefits of its setting in the modern world is Loli grapples with everyday problems of yearning for love, of struggling, of combating her own humanity. In her journey, we see how life can sometimes feel like a lesson in moving forward while hurting. But we can always stop, recalibrate and eventually find our way back home and to who we can probably be. [Canada Reads bell

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Kudakwashe. Okay, Heather, you're our other finalist. Let's check out the trailer for The Future.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: [a cannon fires] The French arrived in the 18th century in what's now known as the city of Detroit. But what if they never left? In another time -- another space -- Detroit is now Fort Des Trois. It once gleamed with greenery. It now whispers of darkness, drugs and despair. [people speak] Gloria moves into the neighbourhood, grieving her lost daughter, holding out hope for her missing grandchildren. On the outskirts of town -- along the Rouge River -- the flora is alive. The fauna are alive. Here, children roam wild, run free. [children speak excitedly] This is the future [bright piano] where we dream of beauty, of community. Where green grows, hope springs anew, where wild children's laughter echoes through the trees. [children laugh].

ALI HASSAN: Heather, you have 60 seconds. Why should The Future win Canada Reads? [Canada Reads bell]

HEATHER O'NEILL: Leroux shows us a path to the future. One in which people take responsibility for their actions. One in which no voice is considered insignificant. The art and thoughts of each individual in a community are needed for it to flourish. Leroux is one of Canada's great literary stylists. Her risks excite and challenge the reader's mind. She expands our idea of beautiful. I saw the world in a different light after reading Leroux's book. Leroux shows us a way to restructure our imagination so that we can free ourselves from the capitalistic logic we have internalized. So that we can give a beautiful and healthy future to all our children. As someone who grew up in a dangerous environment, I know exactly what it means to bring a child into a dysfunctional world.

ALI HASSAN: With time to spare. [Canada Reads bell] Thank you, Heather. All right, there you have it. [game show music] The final two books in the running are Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji, championed by Kudakwashe Rutendo. And The Future by Catherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou and championed by Heather O'Neill. It is up to Kudakwashe and Heather to convince our three free agents why the book they chose should win today. It is time to debate.

[heavy rock theme]

What Shut Up You’re Pretty Has

ALI HASSAN: Okay, I want to compare the two books on the table directly. [deep, pulsing note] So, Kudakwashe, what does Shut Up You're Pretty have that The Future does not?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, I think foremost is accessibility. I think The Future has the most beautiful, dense, lush prose. But for the everyday Canadian, it might come across as a bit challenging. I know when I was reading it, there were some road bumps I ran into with just the descriptions, and the paragraphs, and the elongated metaphors. I think it's so dense and lush that it's easy to get a bit lost in. Whereas Shut Up You're Pretty -- I found -- carried the same art and majesty and wonder, but it was a bit more accessible. Speaking to Téa, she told me about her deliberate choice to choose everyday words so that people from every community -- with all access to the various resources that communities have -- can still read this book, can still derive meaning from this book. For example, one of my favourite, short stories -- "And This is Only Temporary -- it details the death of Darnell, who's a young Black man. And in one of the opening paragraphs, it uses what I, like, it uses anaphora, which is this idea of repeating the opening part of a clause. It's usually poetic. We heard that, describing how people perceive Darnell -- this boy who died. And then, it's saying all the stuff that media perpetrates about the Black community. And then in the end -- the end of that chapter -- it's told us who Darnell really is. And you get the immediacy, the potency of seeing how Black young men are illustrated in the media. And then, you get it in that artful, literary way. And in a way that is accessible because the word choice was deliberate to make sure that the everyday reader can access it. But you still get that beautiful art, that beautiful, deliberate, deliberate choice and mastery of skill and craft. And I think that in that way, you know, Shut Up You're Pretty, it just, it, it handles accessibility a bit better for me.

ALI HASSAN: Heather.

HEATHER O'NEILL: There is this movement, like, the books that sell now are the ones that are easy to read. The ones that are accessible. It's like if you go in the bookstore, they're just everywhere. And I understand that. And it's fine. But this is a literary competition and I feel like it's, it's, it's a competition where books that are doing different experimentation are, are working with different languages and genres and bringing them together, this is the only opportunity they have to shine. Without it -- if we start doing that -- there's going to be no more poetry. It's like impossible practically for so many different experimental writers to find publishers. It's impossible for French Canadians to have translated works. They, even if it's a massive success, it never gets translated in the rest of Canada because there's this resistance to language. And if you look at novels that people were reading in the 20th century -- the Victorian era -- they are just so much more complicated. And they deal with, you know, you have Moby Dick with these wild, like, met chapters about whaling, which make no sense. But they bring, they create, they create an atmosphere. And there's a way our minds have gotten boring and slazy, and I feel like Canada can handle this book. I've known people who've read it. Yes, sometimes you have to go back and read it and read a line again. Yes, you have to may have to pause and think about things. But I just want Canada to have a challenge. I don't want it to be this book is too hard because I don't believe it's too hard. Because I've been, I am always in book clubs. I love book clubs. Invite me to your book club. And what, and I've gone into prisons with my books, and what is so amazing to me is the way that we underestimate readers. And when readers take their time with a book, what they can get out of it.

ALI HASSAN: And you are talking about literal prisons, not a feeling of being in prison.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Exactly! I visit prisoners and I do book clubs in prison. And what, and that was one of the huge revelations that they were able to respond. Like, I brought in When We Lost Our Heads. And one of the prisoners said, I understand what you're doing. You're taking a classic novel, but using contemporary language to be able to talk about what we can talk about now that you couldn't talk about then. And I was like, this is an amazing, incredible discussion. And these are from men who have just nobody expects anything of them. And there's something about books if we take our time. You don't have to speed through a book. You don't have to read it in three hours. Yes, you can take, and those are what book clubs are for. You're allowed to bring them to your friends. You're allowed to ask questions. You're allowed to underline. Yeah, that's great. There's a room for books that are easy to read. But that shouldn't just be the qualification for winning a literary prize.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Focusing on the books here, Kudakwashe, what is your response to that?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, I think what Heather brings up is a really good point. But I do think -- at the end of the day -- it's not really a matter of a book being -- I think -- easy to read or, like, shunning books that are more complicated. Because I think there is an art and complexity, but I think there's also an art and simplicity. And in something being simple doesn't mean that it's any less artful at all.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Not at all.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, exactly. And also, yeah, I was like -- I think -- our books tackle this in completely different ways. But for me, I was like, what Shut Up You're Pretty did so successfully was it managed to use the most artful words and conventions while remaining accessible. And that was the biggest point for me that I could say to anyone, oh hey, I think you should read this. And that they wouldn't grapple at the very least in their reading experience, like navigating the world prose-wise.

HEATHER O'NEILL: But good luck with that. People reject short stories. And people say the exact same thing about short stories. They say I don't want to read stories. I'm done with them. I just want a novel. I want a character. I can go through. Short stories, we have different threads, things that lose. Short stories, good luck trying to get short stories published. I mean, it's amazing. Vivek Shraya -- who published this -- is amazing.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yes.

HEATHER O'NEILL: And, and a magical figure in this country. But otherwise, getting a book of short stories -- impossible. Publishers are like, don't bring them. The readers don't want them. They say they're too hard to read. So, I can bring the same --

ALI HASSAN: Let me bring Dallas into this conversation here and put the question to you, What does Shut Up Pretty do that The Future does not? What does it have that The Future might not?

DALLAS SOONIAS: As, as [clears throat] you've both discussed, the language is very easy to understand. So much so that it, you feel like you're right there. You feel like it's a real, you feel like it's a memoir. I actually thought it was. That's on me, of course. But I thought this thing was a memoir 'till the end. And I was so invested in the character's struggle, until I found out a day later, it's not a real character. It's fiction. And then, I kind of felt hoodwinked. But that -- again -- that's, that's on me. But what I wonder about the book is because I think we've all talked about how much trauma there is in the book; it's a through line. And then, you get to the end and as I, as I mentioned, I didn't find a lot of resolution, whether it was good or bad. It's just kind of dot, dot, dot, dot, and that was the end. I wonder how that is the book to carry us forward?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay. I also want to go reference what Heather said about short stories. Because I think Heather brings up a very fantastic point. I think in the literary world; it is a beast to navigate publishing short stories -- especially as a debut collection. But what I really love -- and why I'm so happy to champion it -- is because it is short stories. And because as a reader, I also struggled with short stories that, like, I wanted to champion, I was like, I really want to explore a genre. But I was like, short stories have never stuck with me because I've always been someone who consumed and devoured novels. So, what I loved about Shut Up Your Pretty was that it was interconnected. Because you still get that novel experience, and this is going to tie in to what Dallas said. But also, I do want to reference something that I thought was so profound. As a Black woman reading this collection of short stories, one of the questions I asked -- because the biggest was Téa subverts genre in the biggest way in making it interconnect, interconnected. And I asked he -- I was like -- why? [chuckle] Like, like it's working for me, but why is it interconnected as opposed to just different characters, different stories? And she's like, inherently she, implicitly, she wanted to follow a Black woman. But given the content of all these stories, and you're seeing a lot of difficult journeys. And there's not a lot of representation for Black women -- especially in this way. To see all these different Black women struggle through the experiences that Loli struggled with, it would seem more universalizing as an experience of, like, as Black women, what we primarily experience is trauma. But in making them interconnected and making Loli one character who goes through all of this stuff, it becomes more, not more human, but it does, it subverts being universalized because we know that this is one woman with this unique experience. [Canada Reads bell] I'm sorry I didn't get to your point.

DALLAS SOONIAS: That's okay.

ALI HASSAN: That's that's it for this round.

[game show music]

What The Future Has

ALI HASSAN: I want to make sure I have enough time to, to, to turn to The Future, which we'll do in this round now. Heather, I will reverse the question and ask you, what does The Future have that Shut Up You're Pretty does not?

HEATHER O'NEILL: It has a sense of looking forward. I think, what Shut Up You're Pretty does -- I think -- it, there's, it's a sketch of a novel. And she proposes ideas. There are sort of vignettes of an idea of passivity and what it is to be in a woman's body. And she sort of she sleeps around as a form of passive resistance. It's almost like anorexia. And, and she does it brilliantly. She brings us into what it feels like to be an objectified body, but she never brings us anywhere to any sort of resolution. Whereas when I met Gloria at the beginning, she was incredibly passive. But as I read the book, she earned, and I, and I disliked her because she reminded me of so many people in my life who had betrayed and abandoned me and extended family. So, I hated her when I met her. But she earned my love through her deeds. And I was like, that's what I wanted when I was a child. For someone to earn my love with their deeds. All I did was go around trying to love, get any sort of love and nobody would, would do anything for me. So, and then when actually, it's not only a resolution, but the moment when the children let Gloria into their lives, I also let her into my life. And then, there was, she was actually not a resolution, but a redemption for Gloria. And I love that. And I feel that in Shut Up You're Pretty, Téa Mutonji has such a lovely voice and is a natural storyteller. That she introduces us to Loli, and we just adore her and we follow everything. But there's never any sort of, she never earns our affection. And she never shows us any sort of battling of that passivity. And I almost feel like when you were, when Mirian was talking about romance, I'm like, that is why so many women are going to this new genre. I spoke to a bookseller the other day and he said they can't, the biggest section in the store for theft now is romance. And he's like, these young girls come in, and they can't get enough of the books, so they steal them. And they can't afford the whole series, so they're stealing them. And I was like, women want this new idea. I've read so many books. It's like, I know you say it's new, but the idea I've just, it's cringy because it's like, it's still the same proposition as when I was in my young 20s. This is what we were writing about. And I'm like, there's no way forward. And then, so all these women now are turning away and looking for romance because it shows a positive way for women to be active in the world and know their own desires. And not just, just lie there and let any man take advantage of them. They're actively, you know what? There is a future. And I feel like with Gloria and, and the, and in this book, there's, there's the second act of everyone trying to change. And we, we just don't meet them and leave it at that. And there's a community that builds. And we see the way community interacts. We don't see the way community interacts at all with Loli. There's no interaction. There's no actual development with her mother or father.

ALI HASSAN: Kuda, you've had your book open for a little while, and you've been scribbling notes. [Kudakwashe Rutendo chuckle] You're ready to respond to this, I imagine.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I am. Because I think this is a really good point that Heather makes. Because I think a couple of the panellists have kind of brought up how they feel like there's no resolution. And I think when we think about the themes, primarily where people think there's lack of resolution is in her relationship with her mother and in just Loli's arc. And I'm going to address those two points as quickly and concisely as I can. So, the first arc is just like with her Blackness. And in that last paragraph, Loli references how her mom tells her that she must wrap her hair when she sleeps. And that is something for people unfamiliar with, like, kind of Black culture. A lot of Black women and Black, Black embodied people, we wrap our hair, and that's just an aspect of culture. But also, it's something that is not typically done, that there's almost a resistance to be able to, like, do that freely. And when I read that, it's like, you have to love yourself in the way that Black people -- like, openly -- we must take care of ourselves as the Black community. But also, in that last, in that last short story, when she gets back together with her mom, it's, her mom says she wants to invite, like, they can say all these things. They haven't talked in a while. We know this. There's a lot of tension. But they say, like, there's this line where it says we don't talk about this day. Instead, my mother asks me to come home for Sunday dinner. And I think that is such an honest representation of family. Sometimes, the tricky things -- the heavy topics -- we can't find our way easily to them. But it is in showing your affection and showing care and doing the action.

HEATHER O'NEILL: But I feel like you're reading into that. Because the last story, it's like we missed that entire family for so long. And then there's one page -- a one-page story -- at the end where you're telling me the entire family is brought back. And it's like, I mean, Dallas brought up that he felt the editor had tacked this to the end, and I also felt that way when I read it. And so, you're saying that this entire, this page-long, sorry, because I also felt that some of the stories were dropped halfway through. It was an idea, and it was dropped. And it's like, because Téa is such a young and lovely writer, like she has a natural ear for music. She is going to be a big voice. We are going to hear from her -- obviously -- you know? And -- I think -- that that uniqueness in her writing style makes her lazy in the plot.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Interesting! Okay, so can I just?

ALI HASSAN: Yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: So -- I think -- I think, sometimes when we have expectations for stories, like, to expect a neat little bow to tie everything up because you also said that you didn't think that Loli earned our affection and earned our love. But why does she have to as a character? Like, why do they, like, in the sense that why does she have to be this perfect, lovable character as a woman? Why, we, I like that we disagree with her. I like that there's conflict that is starting discussion about things that we don't like that she did, and returning to the family. And then you, then you can -- actually -- I'll let you interject now.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I was just going to say, I don't say that she didn't earn my love. I said I loved her from page one.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay, okay.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I instantly adored her.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay. I think, never earns our affection is that --

HEATHER O'NEILL: Yeah, because she doesn't have to. We adore her, but so, you know what I mean? It's, but okay. So, so it's a character we love immediately. Mirian has something.

MIRIAN NJOH: I think the thing is, too, is, yeah, it's, everyone is deserving of love. So, let's just put that out there. I want, I don't, and I know that that's, you know, that's, that's a given. But we're reading a book. You're asking me to engage and remain engaged with your work. And so, sometimes, it's almost like Loli is like an anti-hero because you have, because you love Loli so much, you want the best for her, and you wonder if she even wants it for herself? And that's what sometimes is, you, it's so hard. And I connected with that part when you said her mother, you know, there's, there are these gentle pieces at the end where, where Loli is encouraged to connect with herself and connect with her Blackness through you must wrap your hair. That is a subtle and that is beautiful. But then, it made me wonder at the end, I, yeah, I like that. I see what Téa did there. But did she wrap her hair? Did she actually embrace the Black? I don't know.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay. And, I think that, like, that's one of the majesty of the ending because it ends with the lines here we buy. And in this short story, it goes on to contextualize it. And in this short story, we, we see for the first time a very in-depth glimpse into Loli's mother, and into her characterization, and into her struggles as an immigrant. And here we buy -- for Loli's mother -- was just some words she heard in like an infomercial as she was trying to learn English. But by the end, it recontextualizes itself as something to push yourself forward. That as immigrants, it's hard. We're battling so much. We're trying to learn languages through infomercials, but we just keep saying the words that don't make sense to us until they gain new meaning. And to end it on that, on a note of perseverance, on keeping going. For me, that was very powerful.

ALI HASSAN: We have one minute left. I want to get Naheed in.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah, I just want to say this has been so helpful for me -- this debate and having our discussion. Because, you know, Heather, one of the things I had wanted to say to you is, please tell us about the book. You've been talking a lot about the idea of the book, and the style of the book. And this is one of the first times I've heard you really talk about the book. That we ended up talking about Shut Up You're Pretty for most of this time. The only thing I want to say is, something that occurred to me in this debate is I'm going to say controversially that Shut Up You're Pretty is not a collection of short stories. And I think that Téa is actually using that form as a crutch for the fact that her novel is not fully formed. And the reason that I say that is because the second-to-last story has nothing to do with the family or Loli's struggle. And the very last line is, I miss my mother, which just gives you a play into the final one-and-a-half page story, which I do not think is an in-depth view of the mother. It's just the first time we've seen the mother in a couple hundred pages. And so -- to me -- that ending is still not earned, and the short story genre is not the excuse to say that that's why the story doesn't end well. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: And with that contentious statement, that is it for that round.

[game show music]

Interstitial

ALI HASSAN: Well, the final day of Canada Reads can get intense, as, as is happening right now. There is only one winner on Canada Reads, but over the four days, all five panellists have gone on a very special journey to find the one book all of Canada should read. But we would like that special journey not to be fully over yet. We have a surprise for each one of you.

SOUNDCLIP

[happy music]

MOM: Hello, Mirian, this is mom.

MIRIAN NJOH: My gosh!

MOM: With greetings from home in Liberia, Africa. I want to say I'm very proud of you for entering the Canada Reads contest. That you were selected to participate is a big win. You know I'm a sucker for love and romance novels. I love you, and congratulations.

SHAHEEN: Hi, Naheed. It's Shaheen, your favourite sister.

SOPHIA: Hi. It's Sophia.

ASHA: Hi, it's Asha, your favourite niece.

SOPHIA: I think we all know that I'm the real favourite here!

SHAHEEN: I'm so happy that you taught yourself to read when you were two years old, so that you could help Nanima find her favourite shows in the TV guide, to now championing your favourite book on Canada Reads.

ASHA: I know your passion is going to shine through this week. Have fun.

SOPHIA AND ASHA: Go, Naheed, go! We love you... well, most days.

LOVING WIFE: [Cree music] Hi, Dallas. It's your loving wife and son back home. What an adventure you're on right now. I could not think of anyone better to defend this book and represent our people on TV. You have made us all so proud back home. Be kind to yourself throughout this process because remember, you continue to inspire not only myself, but everyone around you. Your passion is so contagious. We love you so, so much.

SON: I love you, Daddy! Proud of you!

DALLAS SOONIAS: Oh my goodness!

ARIZONA: [bright piano] Hey, Heather. It's your daughter, Arizona. I remember being 12 years old when you won Canada Reads for Lullabies for Little Criminals, and it was a life-changing experience. I can't wait for everyone else to hear you talk about books because recommending and discussing literature is your love language. And there's nothing I enjoy more in this world than discussing books with you.

KUDA'S MOM: [romance music] Hi, Kudakwashe, this is Mom here. I know reading has been your passion from an early age when you volunteered in the library. I'm so, so proud of you. I know how hard you've worked to get here, and we are all praying and cheering you on. I love you, Baby Girl, and I'm really rooting for you.

ALI HASSAN: Those were the voices of Mirian's mother. [Mirian Njoh chuckles] Naheed's sister and his nieces. Dallas, Dallas's wife and son. Heather's daughter. And Kudakwashe's mother. I'm Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads on CBC and Sirius XM. Let's get back to the debate.

[heavy rock theme]

Community Debate

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Heather, on Day One, you said that The Future reflected the human desire to create community and family. Kudakwashe, on Day Two, you said Shut Up You're Pretty reflected how we as humans crave community and connection. So, if both of these books are about the power of community, family and connection, which book explored this best? Mirian, I'm going to ask you first.

MIRIAN NJOH: I would say that, I would definitely say The Future probably explores it best. Because when I think about, you said it's community, and what's the other term?

ALI HASSAN: Connection.

MIRIAN NJOH: Community and connection, yeah. So, you can see that there's two, almost two different communities. And they're really formed, it's, we have the community of neighbours on Avenue Clyde, and then we have the community of -- as I call them -- wildlings in the forest. [several panellists chuckle] And they are, I refer to them as they're ecosystems. They are, they're self-contained ecosystems, and they thrive and exist off of each organism playing their part to make it happen. You know, we have Theo -- who's a nurse -- and then we have, you know, just there's so many characters that all work together -- even Whale in the tree. And Fiji has a role. And everybody has their role, and you can really see, you know, how they all work together and lean on each other, rely on each other. And Shut Up You're Pretty, you know, I think even though it's, it has so many strengths, I don't know that I necessarily felt that was one of them as much. We know that Loli has a community that supports her, but, but it's almost -- similar to how Naheed said before -- it's almost like sometimes they exist to serve her. We don't really know how she serves them.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Kuda, would you like to respond to that?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. So, I think one of the best chapters that Shut Up You're Pretty illustrates, like, connection and community is with Loli in the short story "Shut Up You're Pretty" with her connection with Patty. And I also was having that thought when I got to that point. I was like, you know, Loli's friends really sometimes seem to be there for her. But, like, you know, I want to see her care for them the way that they care for her. Because -- I think -- Patty was probably the perfect example of a perfect, like a really good friend. Loli insinuates she's not well, Patty's out and she comes home in an instant. And, you know, there's this moment that, you know, Patty craved a kind of stew that was made back home. And then, Loli calls Patty's mother, and it's like, you know what? I need, I want to make this for her. I want to give that to her. And then, it kind of walks through her doing this -- cooking for her. And I feel like cooking is a way that we show love. And it's, like, food -- I think -- is one of this -- like, especially for, like, immigrant communities and people of colour. We noticed that, like, yeah, it was like -- I think -- food is, like, a way to check in and make sure someone's okay -- especially when you can't articulate in other ways that you show love. Inversely, I really did love The Future, but I was like some of the things I struggled with is -- especially in terms of the community -- I think that there's so many characters that sometimes it feels a bit easy to get lost in them. And certain ones are, it seemed like it went more in depth than others. And I like the comprehensive view. But I was like, especially when you're balancing so much, and because -- again, as I alluded -- the novel is so dense. As a reader, you, like you, the book will love you as much as you love it, but you're challenging yourself. You're really putting yourself to work to grasp it because -- especially at some points -- the world seems to devolve, to lean more to the metaphysical and metaphorical than the concrete. When you ask someone to concretely map it, it's hard. So, I was like with that, and adding all these characters and trying to draw the ties between the relationships with each other and community, and you're trying to understand this alternate history Detroit, and so much going on. I felt a bit lost in everything that was just seemingly thrown at me.

HEATHER O'NEILL: As far as the community, I think with all the characters -- I mean -- it's done sort of stylistically. Like, they keep, they're kept in the middle. And I think she does do an excellent job of threading them all together. And I think, but Gloria's the protagonist. And I think because she's an older woman, people are incapable of seeing her as a protagonist. But she's clearly moving through the book. And it's like, if you want to create an unlikeable protagonist, start with this line: Alice was 50. Everyone will immediately hate her and think there's something wrong with her. So anyways, but, and one of the things in all of these, all of the books that were brought up, in Denison Avenue, Bad Cree, in Meet Me at the Lake, it's this sense of there's all older women in it who are necessary for community. And I feel that the reason -- one of the reasons -- Loli is in the position she is in is because she lacks in the world, not even, like even in the book, but in the outside world, this idea of, like, capitalism is based on middle-aged women and above being cast aside, burned at the stake, their value, they cannot be productive in a society and happy for capitalism to work. And the reason Loli is so lost is -- and she. Talks about it -- is she has no, she doesn't know what it is. But what it is is she doesn't have a vision for what it's like to turn 50. And it is amazing. And she needs to start, instead of just acting as though her, her early 20s are the peak time of her existence, where all she can get from life is the gaze of men. She needs to be working on herself. She needs older women as models, and she just is looking around for, at girls her age. And they're unable to provide any, any lessons for her. And I'm like, where are the older women in this, in her community? So, that was one of the things that I really thought in The Future, she, there is just, in, in each, every person, you see them related to a community. And we see Gloria build herself a community. And within that community, she is able to, to become a different person herself.

ALI HASSAN: Let me put the question back out there. Naheed -- asking you -- the power of community, family, connection, which, which book explored this?

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, my life is community, and thinking about ways in which to build community. And in this case, I would actually say that the least hard part of The Future is the discussion of community because it's so obvious from day one when, page one -- I think page five -- when Gloria meets Eunice -- her next door neighbour.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Yeah.

NAHEED NENSHI: And it's tragedy that brings them together. But Eunice immediately -- through food, but also through many other things -- said, all right, here are the people I know who are going to help you. And I'm going to take you around the neighbourhood, and we're going to meet all these people, and we're going to find those grandchildren. And then -- of course -- there's the middle section, which is about how the children have created this weird, [Naheed Nenshi and Heather O'Neill laugh] community there. So -- in my mind -- that's all there. And my challenge with Shut Up You're Pretty on this front is very specifically -- as Mirian has said -- that the community feels incidental to Loli, and to the story of her. So, I said before that it feels like you're sketching out Galloway. And I don't know Galloway. But that sketch could have been any immigrant community, as far as I'm concerned. And, you know, you compare it -- for example -- to Catherine Hernandez's Scarborough. It was on this show a couple seasons ago, which is such a richer description of what can only be Scarborough. So -- in that way -- I think The Future was much more about community and connection. And Shut Up You're Pretty, kind of a swing and a miss on trying to talk about community, [Canada Reads bell] but doing it only through Loli.

ALI HASSAN: That is it for this round.

[game show music]

Hope And Resilience Debate

ALI HASSAN: These two final books touch on heavy themes of poverty and despair, but they also explore the power of hope and resilience. Both books are about finding the resolve to carry us forward through life. So, which book had the most compelling portrayal of hope and resilience? Dallas, I'm going to ask you first.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Obviously, as I've been critical of the ending of the book, it's not as though I felt The Future had a brilliant, brilliantly hopeful ending.

ALI HASSAN: When you said you've been critical of the ending of the book, you did point out --

That's right! I'm sorry!

ALI HASSAN: Shut Up You're Pretty. I just I interpret --

DALLAS SOONIAS: I'm clearly a visual guy.

ALI HASSAN: Absolutely.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Shut Up You're Pretty. I've been critical of the end of that book. So, with The Future, it's not as though I feel as it did an amazing job wrapping it up. It, the author did a fantastic job bringing it, bring it, bringing it all together in the end so you understood these characters that you -- as you mentioned -- you don't even really like. You understand the characters more in how what's going through everybody's mind in the last 20, 30 pages of the book. So, I feel as though The Future -- even though most of the book went over my head -- did the best job of, of having a cohesive ending.

ALI HASSAN: Kuda.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: When I'm contrasting the two endings, and I find that also this speaks to a larger critique and just examination of The Future as a whole. It ties back to the imagery. I love a good literary book. I love, give me all the dense, fabulous prose. But I like the power of The Future -- for me -- was it was almost metaphysical. It was the idea of many ideas. The palimpsest, it was palimpsestic of the future being overlaid with the past until it's one over the other and these beautiful ideas of humanity. But when you try to concretely grab something, it was intangible. The world -- for me -- was also intangible in the sense it was an idea that I was wading through. And even the ending, it was this intangible idea of the future, of possibility, of hope, but balancing it with the past and informing it with everything. And, and it was beautiful. But I was like -- concretely -- I'm taking, like if I tried to critique it like going deep and depth into it, I was like it felt intangible to me. It was the beauty of it is in the metaphors. Whereas I feel inversely since Shut Up You're Pretty is -- again -- grounded in a contemporary world. I feel like it's tie -- for me -- it's tied to contemporary issues. It was just a bit more direct in the sense that it was concrete references of things. Like, the references of infomercials. And since, since the way it was written, I felt like it leaned less on imagery and metaphors in a sense that it didn't use elongated metaphors as much as The Future does. I feel like when you're trying to grasp the ending, it was easier to digest and kind of analyze. Whereas in The Future, it was a dense paragraph ending that was beautiful but very dense and hard to figure out absent help and absent guide.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I know. That's, I've, okay, can, we're going to move past the, like, I get it. The book is dense, but that doesn't actually have to do with the hope. And -- I mean -- she brings in, if we just look at the natural world and how she addresses it, and dealing with climate change, and the struggle. And sort of at the beginning -- I mean -- it is a dystopia. So, we do have the, you know, at the beginning of dystopia and the dystopic genre -- or subgenre of dystopia -- you often begin it doesn't matter what Gotham to their place. Because what it is speaking about is that we all live in such a fragile world because of how, because of the geopolitical structure, anything, as we see. You know, we see in Calgary, like fires -- where you're from. There's, like, anything can push us to that. Like in Station 11, do we care that it was a flu that killed all the people? No. We read 1984, are we like give us even more history and backstory about Eurasia. I don't understand exactly what, what country it is in. What exactly, like, where, where would they file their taxes? Where would they, do they have, you know, you don't ask these questions. What we want to know is what happens after. Like, how are we going to rebuild? Or how are they dealing with this catastrophe? And a lot of times, it's really there's something joyous. Like, we like dystopia sometimes because it's so awful, and there's something kind of perverse about liking dark literature, which I love sometimes. Just let me see it all fall apart. But then, she reverses the dystopian genre and makes it into the idea that disaster can actually herald change and that we're living in a time of great catastrophe -- all of us, all over the world. It's hard to watch the news. But there is a way for us to come together as a community and come out of that. And I feel that idea of hope, I had never, I had never really thought about it before. And I felt like a different person. I thought about hope in a different way.

ALI HASSAN: I want to get Mirian in on this.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah, okay, I'll try to be brief, I, if I need to. But I think that Shut Up You're Pretty has a lot of strengths. You know, it's evocative. We're here hammering at it because we feel passionate about it. But the way it kind of carries us through, it's like it abruptly stops the car and just pushes us out. Like, it's like, get out, we're done. And the thing about The Future is it has its flaws. You know -- yes -- it's dense. Yes -- at times -- it's dry. And you do have to stay committed to the process of finishing this book. But if you stay committed to it, it does reward you as a reader at the end. I didn't have any questions about what happened to Cassandra and Matilda, and did I believe it? Was it on brand for these characters to behave the way they did? Fiji graduated from the wildlings, and that made sense. You know, Gloria came to peace with Judith's passing, even to the point where she got the urn from the kitchen and made peace with it physically. The children are playing in the water. If we're talking about hope and resilience. You know, Shut Up You're Pretty, it whispers hope. It whispers, like there might be some hope here. The Future, we're dancing in the street. Like, it couldn't be more apparent that there's hope. So, if we're judging it on that criteria, then that's what it is.

ALI HASSAN: Dallas, final thoughts to you.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I'm just absorbing that. That was brilliant. Like, you got to get on more panels. [Mirian Njoh chuckles] I think my biggest critique of The Future -- if I may -- is you have, you have a kid playing an ocarina, you have a magical horse and you have a fairy running around giving people good advice and no mention of Zelda. [several panellists laugh] That's the biggest miss -- I think -- the author could have made. Sorry, it's not landing right now.

NAHEED NENSHI: Video game reference.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I know it is.

MIRIAN NJOH: She's locked in on her, yeah. [Heather O'Neill chuckles]

ALI HASSAN: Okay, we have 35 seconds.

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay. And then -- just to speak to this -- I was like, the biggest qualm that I think all of us have with The Future is no one can map the world. And beauty is great and we want that, but we can't tangibly get a sense of it. How come the other world is an intervening? There's all, like, they're doing tourism in this world, but we can't get a sense. And I, and I feel like that's, that's the biggest problem for us. We're trying to bridge these gaps. And I realize my reading experience, I loved it. But then I was like -- actually -- if I take a step back, what was the world? In Hamlet, I love Hamlet because I know they're not going to come back as zombies. But Bleach is a fairy, but she's, it's also, it's like a linear in this world. But is it magical realism? But is this history and this world with all of the things that we're capable of, but there's a fairy, and they can talk to trees. What is The Future's world? [Canada Reads bell] That's what I struggled with.

ALI HASSAN: That's it for this round.

[game show music]

A Word From The Authors

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe and Heather, you're almost done. Here is some motivation to help you make it to the final vote.

SOUNDCLIP

TEA MUTONJI: [romantic music] Hi, Kudakwashe. I've been thinking of something you said: seek disruption. That is the beauty of literature. It is possibly also the beauty of life. I can't imagine how uncomfortable and vulnerable and joyful sitting at that table must have been for you this week. I celebrate you for your willingness to sit in discomfort, to sit in vulnerability, to sit in joy. That is your art. That is your strength. That is your beauty. Thank you for championing our stories. This is just the beginning for you.

CATHERINE LEROUX: [bright piano] Heather, I have been in awe all week. I knew going in that my champion was one of the brightest writers and most eloquent thinkers, but you still managed to blow me away completely. [Heather O'Neill chuckles] Hearing you talk about literature with such nuance and respect just makes me want to write 100 more books. [speaking: French]

ALI HASSAN: Those were the authors of the book still in the running for Canada Reads. The first voice you heard was Téa Mutonji. And the second was Catherine Leroux. It is a victory to make it to the final round, but there could only be one winner.

[game show music]

Parting Debate

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, Heather, it is almost time to vote. You have one last chance to persuade the three free agents at the table that the book you are championing should win Canada Reads. I'm going to give you each 30 seconds. Kudakwashe, [Kudakwashe Rutendo chuckles] your final chance to make a case for Shut Up You're Pretty. Thirty seconds are on the clock. [Canada Reads bell]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I really want to harken back to this idea of seeking disruption. I think for everyone, the problem with this book was never about the writing, and it was never about being affected. And that's what we need. That's what is going to bring Canada forward. And then, when I contrast this with The Future, I think we all struggle with the world building. We're just not convinced of its setting. And -- for me -- that's a really big qualm. One of the benefits of Shut Up You're Pretty is it's tied and connected to the contemporary world, leading a direct line to dialogue and discussion of contemporary issues like struggling with beauty and self-worth. And as a person of colour, and these immigrant communities that have been neglected often times. [Canada Reads bell] That is a strength.

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Kudakwashe. Heather, one last chance to defend The Future. Thirty seconds are on the clock. [Canada Reads bell]

HEATHER O'NEILL: Dallas, you love your boy so much, and you've talked about how it changes you. And the idea of, like, even of your boy alone in the woods. Like, your boy should never be left alone. It's not even only your responsibility but that of the whole community. Naheed, you've presided over a six state of emergency in Calgary as its illustrious mayor. You know how communities come together. Miriam, you have introduced me to so much. [chuckling] And there's genre. And it's played with genre, with magic and fairies, but also the power of women in that, and the thirst for adventure that is in women. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Heather. That is it for this year's debate.

[heavy rock theme]

The Vote

ALI HASSAN: It all comes down to this. Panellists, it's time to cast your final vote. Your ballots are in front of you. And just like you have the last three days, you are voting to eliminate a title. The last book standing will win Canada Reads. Once you voted, Charleen from the Canada Reads team will collect your ballots. She will go around the circle. Please hand her your ballot when you're ready. Okay. Again -- at the table -- a mixture of confidence and some deliberation as you voted. I will say that this -- I mean -- this is what it all comes down to. There are parties across this, across this country watching this exact moment and hoping that, you know, it would come to exactly this. And I will say that the passion with which the arguments were delivered leading up to this were wonderful. I want to say hello to the watch parties, Ottawa Public Library, Burk's Falls Library, Calendar Library watch Party and The Cross & Crows finale watch party in Vancouver. Cross & Crows Books. You can also, for those of you who are listening on CBC, CBC Radio One or on the podcast, welcome you to this final moment. And those of you who are watching on CBC Gem and CBC Radio One. Welcome to all of you. Thank you. Charleen. I have the ballots in hand. [tense music] Heather O'Neil, let's start with you. How did you vote?

HEATHER O'NEILL: I only have one choice. Shut Up You're Pretty.

ALI HASSAN: Yes. We still ask, just in case. [Heather O'Neill chuckles] That is one vote against Shut Up You're Pretty. Kudakwashe Rutendo, how did you vote?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: The Future.

ALI HASSAN: We start with the obvious. One vote against Shut Up You're Pretty, and one vote against The Future. Naheed Nenshi, how did you vote?

NAHEED NENSHI: I voted to eliminate Shut Up You're Pretty.

ALI HASSAN: We have two votes against Shut Up You're Pretty, one against The Future. Dallas Soonias, how did you vote?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I voted against Shut Up You're Pretty.

ALI HASSAN: We have three votes against Shut Up You're Pretty. And with that, Shut Up You're Pretty has been eliminated. And The Future is the winner of Canada Reads 2024. [winning theme, claps] Mirian Njoh.

MIRIAN NJOH: It doesn't matter. [laughing]

ALI HASSAN: It doesn't matter. I will, there are no secret ballots in Canada Reads. I will let you know.

MIRIAN NJOH: It's provocative.

ALI HASSAN: It is provocative. Shut Up You're Pretty --

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: Was your vote. And, let me -- I mean -- we have, there's not much time left to talk about this. I would love to talk to both of you at length. I'll have some time to do so. But that is something. The book that all of Canada should read is The Future. We're going to celebrate the winning panellist and author on CBC Radio's Commotion tomorrow morning. With this little bit of time that I have, I have. How are you feeling, Kudakwashe?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Very emotional.

ALI HASSAN: Yes.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: [crying] I'm sorry.

NAHEED NENSHI: It's all right.

HEATHER O'NEILL: It's okay.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I am so grateful for the chance that I've had to champion this book. For me -- I touched on this -- as a Black woman, seeing representation -- and seeing what Téa has done -- I'm thankful to Arsenal and to Vivek. I think the amazing things have been said in Shut Up You're Pretty. And I think the exact reason that people are uncomfortable are why we need to read this book. Because I said this on one day, but I was like, just because, like, as uncomfortable as you are reading it, we've experienced it. And I really hope, I really hope people take the chance to re-examine that book in this lens. Everything that has made you uncomfortable has been experienced in someone's lives, and there's so many potent discussions about community. And -- for me -- this was finding my way back home. This was permission to mourn and to come to terms with things I've struggled with my entire life and --

ALI HASSAN: Kuda, this is a terrible time for me to interrupt you.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: [chuckling] I'm very grateful!

ALI HASSAN: But we are going to have to say goodbye. The Future -- [game show music] championed by Heather O'Neill -- is the winner. It's the one book all of Canada should read. We'll celebrate the winning panellist and the author on CBC Radio's Commotion tomorrow morning. Goodbye to radio. We have a few more minutes on TV. Until next time, read on, canada.

ALI HASSAN: [game show music] My apologies for rushing through that.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Can I say something?

ALI HASSAN: But this is now my, my time to turn to you. Congratulations, Heather. Tell me how you were feeling.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I mean -- right now -- I just want to say, Kudakwashe, you are incredible. Like, you came up, you're 22 years old. Like, you're coming up against me. I've been in the industry. Like, I talk about books for, you know, for decades more than you've been alive. That you came and put me on edge, I mean, you saw me with my papers. I couldn't sleep last night because I knew I had to go up against you in the morning. The way you have spoken about literature, and just even after -- like at the beginning of the show -- I said, I wish we could speak eight hours a day. And, like, you know, you and Mirian and I, we would sit down in the hotel and just talk about literature. And to have the perspective of a younger, of two, younger, just such brilliant women on the publishing industry, it has, like, just touched me so much. And I'm so thankful for that.

ALI HASSAN: I want to also take this moment to ask you if there's anything you would like to say to Catherine Leroux in this moment.

HEATHER O'NEILL: [chuckling] Catherine! I feel like, yes, I'm so happy. And I want to thank Catherine for giving me a book that I didn't run out of things to talk about. And each day, I found new ideas in it, new, new themes, new things to touch on. So, thank you for giving me this book.

ALI HASSAN: I'll let you, I'll let you also give that message yourself. We have Catherine Leroux here to, to, to celebrate [Heather O'Neil chuckles] alongside with you. Hello, Catherine.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Hi Catherine!

CATHERINE LEROUX: Hi, everyone. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much. I'm so, I'm, I'm feeling all the emotions right now, but the main one is gratefulness.

ALI HASSAN: Very nice to, congratulations to you both. I think, you know, I should mention that this is -- I mean -- I think at some level, there is some surprise here as you came into this last, you know, this final day with no votes against you. And I think you might have had the feeling of being an underdog, Catherine. So, it's like a little bit of a, you know, [speaking: French]. We're a little bit turned around here, but --.

CATHERINE LEROUX: That's how I felt. But if I have a few seconds, I will --

ALI HASSAN: Yeah, absolutely.

CATHERINE LEROUX: Thank Heather, of course. Because you were such a great champion. Obviously, you were, you were magnificent. But I want to thank all the panellists for all of their comments -- positive and and negative -- because it's so rare that we get this insight into our readers' minds and the questions that the book raises in them. And I feel immensely privileged to have been witness to that. So, thank you. Thank you, everyone.

ALI HASSAN: Thank you. Catherine, nice to have you here with us. Congratulations again. [speaking: French].

CATHERINE LEROUX: Thank you!

ALI HASSAN: Well, we talk about Canada Reads as a competition. You know -- at its core -- it is also this country's biggest book club. You all love the book club by, it's very clear. Ever since we revealed the books and their champions in January, in January, readers across this country have been discovering reading all five titles. It has been, you know, once you put the competition element aside, it is, it's my favourite thing about this: that people read with such passion. So, I want to, yes, Heather.

HEATHER O'NEILL: One more thing. I also want to thank Dallas for bringing the conversation about dyslexia onto the table. Like, you've just done such a service for the country. And that, and your honesty with your disability has just helped so many people. And, Naheed, it's been, like, such a joy to go up against you. [laughing] As soon as I knew we were going to have a debate, I was like, what an imaginary thrill that is.

ALI HASSAN: I feel like you two could still have a debate.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Rematch Wordfest back in Calgary.

NAHEED NENSHI: Absolutely. Oh, I think that just happened because you just said it. You know, I want to say that I came into this, I was joking that it was the character I will play on Canada Reads -- but factually, me. And I came into this as someone who has let books leave his life. You know, I'm obsessed with screens, and I worked hard to find the time and a place for me to find reading in my life again. And -- for me -- because I travel a lot, I now never will watch a movie on a plane. You know, I read books. In doing that, it's been wonderful for me, too. And I hope people will get that and learn to read books. It's been wonderful for me to meet three of the five authors, and learn about their craft, to learn about the publishing industry. I'm so happy for The Future, but I want to say something extremely sincere.

ALI HASSAN: You have 10 seconds.

NAHEED NENSHI: The best thing for me of these last two months is getting exposed to this brain right here. To Kudakwashe and the way she thinks. And, man, I want to keep, and I know I'm going to keep hearing from you forever.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Totally

ALI HASSAN: All right. Great words to end on. That is it for another Canada Reads. [game show music] That's it. I mean, thank you for everyone who joined us this week. A huge thanks -- my undying thanks -- to the entire team that produces this show. You can catch up on Canada Reads 2024 at: www.cbcbooks.ca. You can follow us on social media: @CBCBooks on Instagram. You can catch me today on CBC Radio stations across the country celebrating Canada Reads and discussing how the final vote went down. A final thank you to this year's panel. Naheed, Kudakwashe, Dallas, Mirian and Heather. I am Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads. Until next time, read on, Canada.

[heavy rock theme]

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The Canada Reads 2024 Day Four Transcript

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