Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2023

The Current Transcript for August 14, 2023

Host: Anthony Germain

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I'm so sad. I'm so upset. I feel disappointed. But then I have lots of goals that I think I won't give them.

CATHERINE CULLEN: It has been two years since the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan. They have placed strict limits on the rights of women and girls, and the country is grappling with famine and increased violence. Coming up, we will look at the struggle to survive and speak to an Afghan woman who has started a new life here in Canada. Then.

SOUNDCLIP

I could sing before I could talk. I would just do the tunes without any words.

CC: Marjorie Taft loves music, but now in her nineties, she's living with dementia and can sometimes forget her passion. Her daughter Beverly is doing everything possible not to let that happen. Their story is coming up in 30 minutes. And in an hour, we'll bring you the first episode of the CBC podcast The Outlaw Ocean, a series exploring the often lawless place that is the ocean. But we begin in Afghanistan, reshaped by Taliban rule. Good morning. I'm Catherine Cullen in this week for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Afghanistan

Guests: Lauryn Oates, Ali Latifi, Golshan Mosleh

CC: In the two years since the Taliban took back power in Afghanistan, more than a million Afghans have fled the country, some to Canada. But for many of those who have stayed, life has become desperate.

SOUNDCLIP

The humanitarian crisis on the ground is worsening day by day. We have almost 28 million people who are in urgent need of assistance. We have more than 4 million children, and women are suffering from acute malnutrition. And these numbers are only expected to increase this year.

CC: That's Reshma Azmi with the aid group CARE International in Afghanistan. Ali Latifi is a journalist in Afghanistan with the news publication The New Humanitarian. We've reached him in Kabul. Hello.

ALI LATIFI: Hi, how are you?

CC: I'm well, Thank you so much for being with us this morning. I'd like to start, Ali, with you, telling us what it is that you see around you in terms of what this humanitarian crisis looks like.

ALI LATIFI: Well, I mean, the thing about the humanitarian crisis that we have to remember that's really important is that it didn't happen by accident. Right. Basically, if you if you look at what has happened in the minus sign over the last 20 years, for the 20 years during the occupation, something like 70, 75% of the government expenditures came from foreign assistance and aid. And what happened was that when the Taliban took over, all of these foreign countries cut back on their assistance and aid the place severe restrictions on the banking system. They took the Apple and central banks reserves and kept them in the UK and the US and didn't give them back to the central bank of Afghanistan. And that led to major issues for investors and investor confidence and such. So all of that combined is what is creating this humanitarian crisis. It's not something that just happened just because the Taliban came into power. It's happening because the system that existed before it was only propped up essentially by foreign aid.

CC: So help help us understand what that what that looks like in in people's lives, please. Ali, because we hear the world in program saying, you know, nine out of ten people can't afford to feed themselves properly.

ALI LATIFI: So what that looks like is, for instance, you have a young man who graduated from law school who had been looking for work for months and months and months. He eventually found one in a restaurant working for a small amount of money. And before that, he had to sell his cell phone in order to buy formula for it for his baby because his wife couldn't produce milk. And as we know, a lot of that has to do with malnutrition. And malnutrition also has to do with their access to money. And so this is someone who is relatively urban, who was able to go to university, who's able to get a degree, but because of what's been going on in the economy. He couldn't afford to basically feed his baby, his infant child. We've seen other people, for instance, in the western province of head off. People will sell their kidneys or their kidneys. You will see their kidneys. Yeah. And then you have, say, like a farmer, right? They now have less people to buy from them. And at the same time, prices have gone up of basic consumer goods. And they're suffering because of droughts, because of floods. You know, these natural disasters are also adding on complicated problem.

CC: Yeah. What about the situation specifically involving women and girls? So much of the international attention was on that when the Taliban came back into power. What does that look like now?

ALI LATIFI: Girls above the sixth grade still can't go to school. Women, for instance. And most of the government, you know, they're only allowed to work in things like two or three ministries at this point. They're allowed to work for private companies. They're allowed to work for NGOs with restrictions and work arounds and such. But they found a way to do that. They're allowed to have their own businesses. But then a couple of weeks ago, the government shut down the beauty salons, which means that now those beauty salon workers, they basically become freelance. They go to wedding halls directly or they go to people's homes. And instead of having a big building, they will go and they will do it that way. But the biggest issue in terms of women and girls is that access to education.

CC: There has been support for the Taliban traditionally in some parts of the country. What is your sense of how Afghans are feeling about the Taliban now?

ALI LATIFI: Look, the truth is that the people of Afghanistan, if you if you look at the history of the last 50, 60 years, we went from so many different political systems, from a kingdom to communism to being ruled by warlords, to being ruled by the Taliban, to the US occupation and to the republic it built. And then now back to the Taliban. And the Afghan people never really had a say in any of this. And so at this point, people are just learning to survive. They're learning to go on with their lives. You don't have a choice. So you're going to do what you can do to try and resume as much of a normal life as possible. Those who have money will still go out and try and live a normal life. People still trying to get jobs and get more people still trying to go to school. You know, there are still people on the streets. And because at the end of the day, you don't have a choice. You know, this is the government and you've got to find a way to live amongst that system.

CC: You talk about the effect of the international community pulling its aid out of Afghanistan. There is no sign right now that that is going to change. And yet this is one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. What do you think the future holds for Afghanistan right now?

ALI LATIFI: The Afghan people, you know, they don't have a choice but to survive and they've always survived the Soviet Union. They survived the Soviet occupation. They survived the American occupation. They survived one round of the Taliban. You know, they have no choice but to survive. But I think what is really important is that the whole world needs to realise that whatever decisions they make do not affect the Islamic Emirate they do not have. The leaders of the Taliban, the leaders of the Taliban, just like the leaders of the former republic who are corrupt and thieves and whatnot. Any cutbacks did not affect them. And right now, these sanctions and whatnot, they're not making the leadership of the Islamic Emirate or the Taliban or not or they're not their leaders are not poor, they're not hungry, They're not without homes. But what is happening is that you are having the average person suffer because of a political issue. And so what the world needs to decide is, is a political issue that you have to handle as important as the lives of 30 something million people. Because if they don't start to see that it's a country of more than 30 million people that needs investment, that needs business, that needs humanitarian aid, that needs engagement, that needs help, what's going to happen is the Islamic Emirate officials, you know, the Taliban leaders will they'll be fine. They'll have no problem. But the people will continue to be hungry. They'll continue to lack education, they'll continue to lack business opportunities. They'll continue to lack employment opportunities. I think what's most important is that the people themselves are trying to find a way in the system.

CC: Okay. That's a powerful note to end on. Thank you so much for your time today.

ALI LATIFI: Thank you.

CC: Ali Latifi is the Asia editor for the news publication The New Humanitarian. We reached him in Kabul. Well, the Taliban, as we heard, has been rolling back access to education for girls and women. Canadian women for women in Afghanistan has been working for women's rights in that country with a focus on education. Lauryn Oates is the executive director. Good morning.

LAURYN OATES: Good morning.

CC: Now, there have been some reports, Lauren notes, that while girls below the sixth grade have had access to education, that that is actually being rolled back. At the same time, there are other reports suggesting that the Taliban might consider allowing women to access university education again. So what do you understand about what is happening right now in terms of the access by girls and women to education in Afghanistan?

LAURYN OATES: Yeah, unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better, because we do have a blueprint for what's happening right now. And it's it's the Taliban's first period of rule during the 1990s. And so far the current situation has been so parallel to that. All the same edicts and bans and regulations coming into place is back then. And so I think it's very clear that the goal is to basically recreate the same society, the same same vision that they held to when they ruled until 2001. And the recent news is that girls schooling from grade three onwards will also close. So far that's only happened in a few locations, but I expect it to happen elsewhere as well. And it's it's really awful news, but it's not surprising to me, unfortunately. And, you know, one of the things that happened in between that announcement just a couple of weeks ago and the closure of the beauty salons, which was, you know, was heard around here. But what happened in between there was that the Taliban closed teacher colleges, all teacher colleges all over Afghanistan. So that was around 5600 faculty and staff working in that system of of teacher training colleges who lost their jobs.

CC: Can you explain to us, given the edicts that you were just talking about, how is it that your group is actually helping girls access education in Afghanistan right now?

LAURYN OATES: We are tapping into something that we did prior to the change in regime two years ago, which is to deliver virtual and distance education. We did that alongside more traditional education. Now we're much more focussed on virtual because it is possible in the country and it's necessary. You know, we don't like the current situation. We want schools to be reopened. That is the right of women and girls, but we know we have to do something in the interim and what we can do is virtual distance education. But what we need help with in doing that is to scale it. We are reaching thousands of women and girls right now. We want to reach hundreds of thousands and eventually all of them with this alternative. It's not ideal, but it is the best alternative out there. And, you know, it is an obligation as well. The Afghanistan is, of course, violating the rights of women and girls. It's part of the U.N. system. It's a signatory to the Declaration of Human Rights. And and the right to learn and to be educated is in violation right now. But other countries also have an obligation to uphold that. Right. And so we think it's really important that the international community do everything it can to make available these alternative forms of education, like digitally based virtual programs.

CC: What do the women and girls tell you about what their life is like right now?

LAURYN OATES: You know, the the overriding theme is hopelessness. We hear a lot of that. And often that specific word, just the feeling of not having the right to dream, to come up with plans for yourself and how you want to live your life will will instil hopelessness in many people to the point that there is widespread mental health challenges. There is, you know, people who feel suicidal because of that hopelessness. On the flip side of that, there's also incredible resilience and people just trying to find a way no matter what. And one of the things that always strikes me is the women and girls we hear from who come to us to ask for help with getting a laptop so they can join an online study program or help with pain, internet at home and things like that. They are pursuing an education and that's their number one priority. At the same time that they're also dealing with intense poverty that the previous guest talked about, that humanitarian crisis. And you have these twin crises coexisting, the humanitarian crisis where people are struggling to eat and the human rights crisis and they go hand in hand and people are contending with both. And it's just remarkable to me that, you know, in families where people are struggling to put food on the table, they're still thinking of education and they still see that as the pathway out of this situation. And I think we have to catch up with that. We have to also see it as as the pathway out and step up to to be take on the responsibility of making sure that classroom doors stay open in a different way. They will look different than how they did before, but we have to keep them open. And that's the entire international community's responsibility, including candidates.

CC: Thank you very much for your time today.

LAURYN OATES: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

CC: Lauryn Oates is the executive director of Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan. Well, Canada promised to resettle 40,000 Afghan refugees after the Taliban took control. Since then, just over 36,000 have arrived. Golshan Mosleh s one of them. She left Afghanistan in October 2021 and spent several months in Macedonia, then landed in Toronto in June of 22, 2022 with her husband and son. She's with me in studio this morning. Hello.

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: Hi. Good morning to you and all. You are nice people listening this morning.

CC: What was going through your mind as you were listening to those last two interviews?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: It is only humanitarian crisis. It is a tragedy. I cannot believe while I was in Afghanistan, I can read. So this is very horrible. I think everyone a fear that us come out like we don't want that. But it comes.

CC: Was it given how difficult we hear the conditions there are? Was it a hard decision to leave or it was clear to you that you had no choice?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: I had no choice. I can't breathe. It was like stacking. It was situation. I can't dream. Like even now, if I dream, I am back in Afghanistan. I shocked from my sleeves like I am waking up and I can't breathe. And I know how people over there feels.

CC: What has coming to Canada been like for you and your family?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: It's good. It's Canada is it is like we have the one saying that the people who are like help you in the most serious time, the bad time. Do you are you are people who support you all the time. So Canada opened its doors for us when it was struggling between life and death. So I'm very happy that I'm here. But I'm very feeling bad because all women in Afghanistan [are] paying the cost of the war on the political games.

CC: When you hear what Laura notes was saying there about trying to give some women and girls access to education, what do you what do you think?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: I support this. That's good, because it's the same as the pandemic was all over the world. But the people were receiving education. But that won't be enough. That won't be enough. So it will be like a hundreds of people receiving education. But there are the issues of the millions of the people, millions of the girls, millions of the woman who were working, as the reporter says, like seeking employment, seeking a break on a table. Having something to eat is very important. So. So this won't be enough. This won't be for sure. This not enough?

CC: At the same time, there are challenges when a person rebuilds their life in another country. What has that been like for you and your husband and your son?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: Yeah. This is also a great challenge starting from scratch, having even nothing, have a cup. So it is very difficult and challenging. But we did it. We are now in a semi-stable life. But still we are struggling, even finding jobs. Yeah, it is.

CC: It is jobs you worry about the most.

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: Yeah, it said the job because before coming to Canada we had this expectation. Once we go as international experience as a person to have a higher education. So I am not the only person with me that in the team of ten master's having masters degree from India, another part of the world, we are struggling with finding a job. So the main thing, like for all of these families I'm interviewing in here, like meeting with them, like making networks, asking and talking to, saying the main thing that we struggle is finding the job. So for me, it's also a big concern. Like finding a job is the big challenge for me and the process of resettlement.

CC: On the one hand, you have these very visceral, real concerns that day to day struggle to find a job. On the other hand, you talk about still having Afghanistan come up in your dreams. When you think about your own future, do you imagine that you will go back one day to Afghanistan?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: Possible, yes. Because it's obvious that Canada is my second home. But this is very true that afghanistan is my first home. And if a person has two homes and the one home is needed my support and building and everything, so obviously people will go to that home. That the other one is a stable, good condition. Everything is perfect. But the other one is like needs support, needs help, needs work. So definitely a person will put more effort on the first or the needed one. So definitely if I have this chance and once everything is okay, I can go back to to provide support.

CC: What do you believe is in Afghanistan's future?

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: If Taliban still exists, It is a dark future. Is there no future? It is all night, all darkness, because without education, education is a light. When education is taken, it means it is darkness. It is a complete darkness. So I can't believe, like if Taliban exists, like tomorrow is the second year. Like we are here, like at night. 15 August 2021 is a very black day of the history. So it is two years, but we don't know how long it will continue. And it would be. Like it is a loss of life. It's a tragedy. It is a human crisis in a part of the world by the name of Afghanistan, like almost maybe for the 40 million people or less than that in Afghanistan. They are struggling. There is only a few people who don't have, as the reporter says, the leaders of both the previous government and in this important. So they don't have any problem. They have given it think they receive millions of dollars in cash every week.

CC: It must be so difficult to to watch. We're going to have to leave our conversation there. It has been so lovely to meet you. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. I wish all the best to you.

GOLSHAN MOSLEH: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

CC: Golshan Mosleh fled Afghanistan and is living in Toronto. Well, the CBC news is next.

SOUNDCLIP

Then we have never yet missed a Recollectiv because she was in bed. In the years that we've been doing this, I have not let her stay in bed, which is pretty intense, but I feel like it's worth it. And afterwards she can just flake out on her red chair and relax.

CC: Beverly Taft is not going to let her mother, Marjorie, spend her days alone in bed. She's made it her mission to get her mom up and to the piano. It's just it's about more than just being active. It's to keep Marjorie's dementia at bay. We'll have more on that story after the news.

Back To Top »

The Person She’s Always Been.

CC: Hello, I'm Catherine Cullen and you're listening to the Current. Marjorie Taft lives in the moment. And in the moment, she wants to continue doing the very thing she’s doing. When she’s lying in bed, she wants to stay there. But Marjorie’s daughter Beverly knows that staying in bed would be the beginning of the end for her 95-year-old mother. So Beverly does everything in her power to keep her mother, who has dementia, participating in life Ö and especially in music. Marjorie and Beverly perform for Recollectiv, a Toronto group for musicians with memory issues. They meet online, so on Saturday mornings Beverly coaxes. Cajoles and schemes to get her mother to her piano. Here is Alisa Siegel’s documentary, The Person She’s Always Been.

SOUNDCLIP

BEVERLY TAFT: Hi. How are you?

MARJORIE TAFT: Enjoying my bed.

ALISA SIEGEL: Marjorie Taft lies in bed in her purple nightgown to match her purple sheets.

BEVERLY TAFT: You know what today is?

MARJORIE TAFT: Saturday.

BEVERLY TAFT: Yes. So I'm going to open the blinds.

ALISA SIEGEL: She opened her eyes two hours ago at 9:30 and has been resting quietly since. At 11:20, daughter Beverly begins the routine.

BEVERLY TAFT: We're going to start getting ourselves organized. Today, we have the sing along.

MARJORIE TAFT: It’s Saturday.

BEVERLY TAFT: It's Saturday and I have your beautiful red outfit hanging up. And you notice what I'm wearing?

MARJORIE TAFT: Red.

BEVERLY TAFT: Yes. So we're going to be two red ladies.

MARJORIE TAFT: One red lady, that’s you.

BEVERLY TAFT: You'll be the other red lady.

MARJORIE TAFT: I just want to rest.

ALISA SIEGEL: I just want to rest. Marjorie repeats the words. Daughter Beverly strategizes. She hopes to get her mother to the piano for the sing along.

BEVERLY TAFT: Sometimes when she doesn't want to get out of bed on a Saturday, she'll say, somebody else can play the piano. And I say, no, no, no, no, no, there's only you. It's only you. So they're counting on us, you, to be at the piano, okay?

MARJORIE TAFT: I want to rest a little longer.

BEVERLY TAFT: I understand. But after the singalong, you can rest.

MARJORIE TAFT: I want to rest before the sing along.

BEVERLY TAFT: Especially at 95, it's difficult to get my mom out of bed.

BEVERLY TAFT: Okay, I'm going to come back in a couple of minutes.

MARJORIE TAFT: Hours. I just want to rest. I’m not going to go to the sing along.

BEVERLY TAFT: I want to show you something.

ALISA SIEGEL: Beverly pulls her phone out of her back pocket. She presses play as she does every sing along Saturday.

BEVERLY TAFT: Alan made a beautiful video for you.

[Alan sings and plays guitar]: A song for Marjie. Here we are, waiting for a song, hoping that our Margie will play along.

BEVERLY TAFT: One of the incredible volunteers, Alan Gotlib, he rewrote the lyrics to Two Sleepy People.

[Alan’s singing and guitar playing fades up]: I remember the way Marjie tickled ivories.

BEVERLY TAFT: And it's all about Marjie and what it means to have Marjie play the piano.

[Alan’s singing and guitar playing fades up]: So here we are. We can hardly wait.

BEVERLY TAFT: When I play it for her, she's really touched by it.

[Alan’s singing and guitar playing fades up]: Marjie the great. So many people who feel they are blessed because we have Marjie. She's the best. See you soon, Marjie.

MARJORIE TAFT: That's nice.

BEVERLY TAFT: Sometimes, I will text four or five of the volunteers and ask one of them to phone, and then they will call and talk to my mom and encourage her to come.

BEVERLY TAFT: I'm going to do voice to text. Hello, Alan, comma, can you please call my mom now on my number to urge her to get out of bed to come and play the piano. Question Mark. Thank you. Exclamation mark. Hopefully he’ll call.

[phone rings]

ALISA SIEGEL: 12:25 p.m.

BEVERLY TAFT: Hello.

ALAN GOTLIB: Hello. Would Marjie be there?

BEVERLY TAFT: Oh, yes, she's here.

Mom, it's Alan.

ALISA SIEGEL: Allan, who sang the song for Marjie.

MARJORIE TAFT: Hello.

ALAN GOTLIB: Hi, Marjorie. How’re you doing?

MARJORIE TAFT: Fine, thanks.

ALISA SIEGEL: 40 minutes to the sing along.

ALAN GOTLIB: You're going to be tickling the ivories today?

MARJORIE TAFT: I think so. Yes.

ALAN GOTLIB: Excellent. That's great. I'll look forward to it.

MARJORIE TAFT: Thank you.

ALAN GOTLIB: I'll see you soon on Zoom.

MARJORIE TAFT: Very good.

ALAN GOTLIB: Okay. You take care.

MARJORIE TAFT: You too. Adios.

ALAN GOTLIB: Adios Amigo, Amiga.

ALISA SIEGEL: Beverly still has to get her mother to the washroom, get her dressed, put her socks on, and then put breakfast on the table. Without breakfast, Marjorie won't have the strength to play.

BEVERLY TAFT: Okay, so let's get a move on.

ALISA SIEGEL: Beverly leaves Marjorie in bed for now and races to the kitchen.

BEVERLY TAFT: I'm just going to turn on the egg water for the poached eggs. The timing has to be just right or she might not go for it. I got to get her juice, but I got to keep an eye on her so that she doesn't give up. There will be a time when this is just way too much. I mean, already it's a lot. In 24 minutes, we need to be at the piano. And understandably, she moves slowly. People are waiting. But then am I torturing her? I don't want to torture her.

ALISA SIEGEL: Marjorie knows that I'm recording. Knows too that this is for broadcast.

BEVERLY TAFT: So can I help you down?

MARJORIE TAFT: I don’t want to get up yet.

BEVERLY TAFT: How about if you just try sitting up?

MARJORIE TAFT: I just need to rest.

BEVERLY TAFT: For how long, do you think?

MARJORIE TAFT: Two weeks.

BEVERLY TAFT: Oh! But I think you need food. What about a piece of chocolate?

MARJORIE TAFT: Yeah, that sounds fine.

BEVERLY TAFT: Okay. You’ll start to feel better once you sit up. That's better, isn't it?

MARJORIE TAFT: Little.

BEVERLY TAFT: And then we'll go down for poached eggs, okay? Yes.

MARJORIE TAFT: After a while.

BEVERLY TAFT: Well, you know what? The singalong is starting very soon. We're doing the first song.

MARJORIE TAFT: Oh. I need earrings.

BEVERLY TAFT: Yeah. Your earrings are downstairs.

[phone rings]

BEVERLY TAFT: This is for you. Oh, here's my mum.

MARJORIE TAFT: Hello.

ROZ: Oh, hello, Marjie. It's Roz calling, Roz from Recollectiv.

MARJORIE TAFT: Yes. I'm glad to hear from you.

ROZ: I'm just wondering, are you going to be joining us today?

MARJORIE TAFT: I will.

ROZ: Oh, fantastic. Are you feeling okay to do that, Marjie?

MARJORIE TAFT: Oh, yes. I like playing.

BEVERLY TAFT: We want to get down there because it's starting.

I'll get my earrings.

ALISA SIEGEL: Beverly guides her mother to the short staircase that divides the apartment.

BEVERLY TAFT: So let's start.

ALISA SIEGEL: Arms akimbo, Marjorie grips the two banisters on either side as she slowly makes her way down. Her shiny red walker waits for her at the bottom.

BEVERLY TAFT: Great.

MARJORIE TAFT: Thank you.

BEVERLY TAFT: You're welcome.

ILANA WALDSTON: We're coming up on 1:00.

ALISA SIEGEL: 1 p.m. The computer is on. Recollectiv is live on Zoom. At the breakfast table, Marjorie sits quietly and takes small, slow bites of her poached eggs and crackers. The other participants chat about the weather across Canada, about a sheep farm in Maine, anything to buy Time until Marjorie is ready.

ILANA WALDSTON: Look at that. We've got Bev. Bev, how’s your mom doing? Is she almost ready?

BEVERLY TAFT: Mom, you ready? She's nodding that she's ready.

ILANA WALDSTON: Okay, great. When we started Recollectiv in-person, Marjie was one of our very first volunteers. There's a lovely piano at the Tranzac, and we would all get together there. And Marjie would play at the piano and we'd all sing along. And it was just like being in Marjie's special bar where everybody gets to sing along with the piano player. Just fantastic. Alright, Marjie's at the piano.

ALISA SIEGEL: At last, Marjorie's ancient fingers, bent and beautiful, touch the keys.

BEVERLY TAFT: We're ready to go.

ILANA WALDSTON: All right. Take it away, Taft family.

BEVERLY TAFT: Hit it, mom.

[piano playing]

ALISA SIEGEL: Beverley daughter, jazz singer, college instructor, sits beside her mother and begins to sing.

[Beverly singing, Marjorie playing the piano]

MARJORIE TAFT: My name is Marjorie Taft. I'm 95 years old and I live here in Etobicoke. I was born June 21st, 1927, a long time ago. I could sing before I could talk. I would just do the tunes without any words. On Saturdays, I perform for Recollectiv and enjoy it. It's coming in contact that I like with people and knowing that I can do something that makes them happy and makes me happy too.

[singing and piano playing fades up]

BEVERLY TAFT: We have never yet missed a Recollectiv because she was in bed. In the years that we've been doing this, I have not let her stay in bed. Which is pretty intense, but I feel like it's worth it. And afterwards, she can just flake out on her red chair and relax. I'm not only responsible for what she eats and, you know, her clothing and cleanliness and all that stuff, but also the way people treat her. Not everybody understands and not everybody is willing to enter their world. But I remember one of the PSWs came and she was just like, get up. I had to say, so that doesn't work. That's not going to work with her.

[singing and piano playing fades up and ends]

BEVERLY TAFT: Thanks for bringing back the sunshine, mom.

Ilana WALDSTON: Bravo. [clapping]

BEVERLY TAFT: When my parents said they wanted to age in place, I said, but, you know, if you move to somewhere, you'll have activities. So when I finally accepted that they really, really wanted to stay in their own home, then it seemed important to have activities. The care giving kind of snuck up on me. It became increasingly apparent that I was it. And my dad would say, thank you for everything you've done for us and for everything you're going to do. It’s like, oh. [laughing]

MARJORIE TAFT: When I was young, I learned hymns. My family was quite religious, especially my mother and her sister, and they'd take me to church. The hymn that has been with me a long time is holy, holy, holy. [singing] Holy, holy, Holy Lord, God Almighty.

ALISA SIEGEL: Can you sing a little bit more?

MARJORIE TAFT: No, that's all.

BEVERLY TAFT: You can name a song and she will jump in. She knows so many songs. She has this huge encyclopedia of music in her. And she can change keys at any time, which is amazing.

MARJORIE TAFT: My mother sang. And her sister played the piano and would hold me on her lap and put my hands on hers while she was playing. So I always had music around me. Any time that there was a chance to do music, I took it. I always felt close to the piano. When someone mentions a song, the tune pops up in my ear and I hear it and it's easy to play. If I can't remember the total melody in something, I can get the person to sing it and then it will come back to me.

ILANA WALDSTON: You can have Marjie and Bev take us through this next song. Hi, Margjie. How you doing?

MARJORIE TAFT: Very good.

ILANA WALDSTON: I like the earrings. Very snazzy.

MARJORIE TAFT: The earrings are a must.

ILANA WALDSTON: The earrings are a must.

BEVERLY TAFT: Ilana Waldston, who's a wonderful musician and a person whose mom had Alzheimer's, she started a group called Recollectiv. And it's a gathering of musicians who volunteer to make music for one hour. Now it's all online. The lyrics are on the screen and we gather together and sing songs.

MARJORIE TAFT: I like popular music a lot. Songs like When You're Smiling.

[Marjorie and Beverly singing and playing the piano]

ALISA SIEGEL: Do you ever have trouble remembering things?

MARJORIE TAFT: I don't feel that I have trouble remembering things. Maybe I do, but I don't think I do. But maybe I don't remember the times that I don't remember.

[singing and piano playing fades up and ends]

BEVERLY TAFT: I never talk to her about having dementia. When we went to see this doctor, of course, he told her that she had dementia, but something that she didn't retain. I think it's fine that she doesn't know or doesn't think about it.

ALISA SIEGEL: So she has forgotten that she has dementia.

BEVERLY TAFT: Yeah. She definitely has forgotten that she has dementia and there's nobody reminding her. At least I'm not reminding her.

MARJORIE TAFT: If I have trouble remembering, it's only if I have trouble remembering.

BEVERLY TAFT: Really, I see it in short term memory problems. She will ask the same questions repeatedly. Like what day is it? What's on the agenda? Over and over again. When is your birthday? When is your birthday? Oh.

MARJORIE TAFT: When is your birthday?

ALISA SIEGEL: March 3rd.

MARJORIE TAFT: Oh, won't be long.

ALISA SIEGEL: Yesterday.

MARJORIE TAFT: Oh, it's already March 4th. Well, happy birthday. Wow! Time goes fast.

ALISA SIEGEL: When is your birthday?

MARJORIE TAFT: First day of summer. It's a good time for a birthday.

BEVERLY TAFT: Some people might find it frustrating, but to me, I just go, everything is new over and over again. And in a way, that's beautiful. But holy cow. I was driving my parents. We'd been on a little trip and I was driving them back from the East, like near Ottawa, coming west in the car. And my mom said, so we're going east now? And I said, no actually, we're going west. Oh. And then she said, so we're going east now. And I said, no actually, we're going west. Oh. Then she said, so are we going east now? And I said, no. I mean, dad said, you have to understand, we live in the West. And then she said, oh. So are we going east now? And he goes, west. West. We're going west. But to me, it was like eventually she'll get there. So she doesn't know if we're going east or west. It's fine. She's not driving. [laughing]

BEVERLY TAFT: So this is a song from Showboat, but we wrote lyrics for my dad's hundredth birthday. So we're going to do it in C, mom. With that little verse?

MARJORIE TAFT: Yeah.

[Beverly and Marjorie singing and playing the piano]

BEVERLY TAFT: My parents were married for almost 66 years. My dad lived to be 100 and six months and two weeks. When my dad died, my mom would say, where's Billy? Then she would say, did Billy die? You know, And then when I said yes, you know, he did. And she would say, what was the cause? So she does remember. And sometimes at bedtime, when I'm getting her ready for bed, she'll say, I miss my Billy. And sometimes she'll ask for a man. You know, like one of the PSWs who comes will say, can I get you anything? And she'll say, a man. And then she'll look at the photo of my dad.

[singing and piano playing fades up]

MARJORIE TAFT: The night that I met my husband, I was playing at the piano and I could see from the corner of my eyes that he was stepping over rows of chairs to get to the piano. That is something I remember and will always remember. So music played a part in a happy life that continued.

[singing and piano playing fades up and ends]

BEVERLY TAFT: If I can get her to the piano to do half an hour in a sitting, then that's gold because it's fleeting.

ILANA WALDSTON: We have a special birthday today. We have Arlene's birthday. And if you've never done the cacophonous happy birthday with Recollectiv before, you will soon find out why it is that we only have one person singing at a time. Marjie, do you want to start us off?

[Marjorie playing happy birthday on the piano]

BEVERLY TAFT: It's kind of like being at a party and then it's something that she and I are doing together. For that one hour, we are side by side committed to this thing. That's kind of what I learned from Recollectiv, that one hour of joy was worth all the other things.

[happy birthday fades up and ends]

ILANA WALDSTON: May you have many, many more healthy, happy and cacophonous birthdays to come.

BEVERLY TAFT: Afterwards, she's relaxed. She just wants to relax and she doesn't remember that she's done it.

ILANA WALDSTON: Everybody, sing.

MARJORIE TAFT: What key?

BEVERLY TAFT: Key of G.

[Beverly singing, Marjorie playing the piano]

BEVERLY TAFT: I'm amazed that we got her to the piano because and this happens every time, I think, oh, today's going to be the day where she just says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I feel like should I just let her rest? But she does love to be at the piano. She joins in on the other songs. But how long can this go on? I don't know. I mean, do I have a right to hound her out of bed? Like I think it's for her own good and I think it keeps her being herself as a musician. Oh, but it's exhausting. It's taxing. It's taxing on her and it's taxing on me.

[singing and piano playing fades up and ends]

BEVERLY TAFT: Thank you so much.

ILANA WALDSTON: I heard those last few emphatic notes at the end there, Marjie.

BEVERLY TAFT: Thanks, Ilana.

ALISA SIEGEL: What happens if you stop coaxing her out of bed?

BEVERLY TAFT: She might not get out of bed. And then it's really the downward slide. Then it's days of nothingness. That's really sad. It's sad for her and it's sad for us, me. It's a loss. It's a loss of life. It's a loss of vibrancy and fun. There will come a time when she won't get up. Maybe in two weeks when it's time for us to get ready for Recollectiv again. She may say no, no, no. And I may say, okay. I don't know. I don't know how soon it will happen, but it's the beginning of the end, which could be a long, long end. I feel like if the music goes away, then a really important part of her goes away. She's just always been the pianist. Always. So as long as I can, I just want to keep it going.

ILANA WALDSTON: That brings us almost to the end of another wonderful Recollectiv session. We have one more song. So without further ado, we will take you to Marjie and Bev once again. And now we get to sing this wonderful song called Marjie.

BEVERLY TAFT: So will you do a little intro for us? Key of G.

[Beverly singing, Marjorie playing the piano]

ALISA SIEGEL: What does it feel like to be coaxed out of bed on Saturday?

MARJORIE TAFT: I'm happy to be coaxed out of bed to play music because that revives me. I never like finishing. I hope it would continue.

ALISA SIEGEL: If you don't feel like getting out of bed like today, what happens?

MARJORIE TAFT: If I don't feel like getting out of bed, music is the way to get me to move. It just makes me feel like doing something and playing something. I don't think there are any days where I don't feel like playing. It's a part of my life and I think it's part of why I'm healthy and happy. Playing the piano is a way of expressing myself and communicating with people. If I didn't have access to my piano, I think I'd be lost, sad. The piano is part of me. It always has and always will be.

[singing and piano playing fades up and ends]

CC: That documentary was produced by the CBC's Alisa Siegel with the CBC Audio Documentary Unit. And we got an update from Bev- Marjorie is doing well. She continues to play the glockenspiel and piano as well as Scrabble and Boggle.

Back To Top »

Outlaw Ocean

CC: I'm Catherine Cullen and you're listening to The Current. All summer we have been bringing you some of the best from CBC podcasts. Today we're starting a new series. The Outlaw Ocean. Journalist Ian Urbina has spent years covering the at time lawless and dangerous place that is the open ocean. Here's episode one. And just a warning, it does discuss murder.

SOUNDCLIP

IAN URBINA: The video came to me from a source at Interpol, and all it had was the subject line: Brace yourself. I opened it and, you know, it was hard to make out what was going on at first. It was obviously shot on someone's phone.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language]

IAN URBINA: The camera is super wobbly. It's at sea and the water is very blue, and you see several large tuna long liners. These are big steel ships. And very early on into the video, you start hearing gunshots. And that's when I immediately stopped everything else I was doing and focused.

SOUNDCLIP

[(Speech in foreign language and gunshots]

IAN URBINA: The guys in the water are clinging to this wooden wreckage of some sort. It looks like a small boat that's been destroyed with a gun fire is coming at them and missing them. You see it sort of slice into the water.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language and gunshots]

IAN URBINA: And the guy on the wreckage is now holding up…Jesus Christ. He holds up his hands, palms up, and then his head. And there's blood all over the water.

SOUNDCLIP

[Shouting in foreign language]

IAN URBINA: The shouting you hear more predominantly is coming from the ship itself, where the shots are being fired, and you can hear the captain of the ship over a loudspeaker yelling in Chinese, which once translated, you know, I found out was shoot, shoot, shoot and over here and over there.

SOUNDCLIP

CAPTAIN: [in Chinese] Shoot, shoot, shoot!

IAN URBINA: But you also hear all this yelling among those standing on the deck. And those folks seem like they're just having a great time. You know, you hear them say, “I got one, I got one.”

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language and laughing]

IAN URBINA: The whole thing ends with this sort of capstone moment where three of the guys on board now, whether these guys are merely witnesses to the crime or culprits. Who knows? All you know is that they're smiling, they're giving a thumbs up.

IAN URBINA: The whole scene is just, I don't know, it's one I've never been able to get out of my head. It's just so slow and methodical. And then the laughing, you know, behind. Um, it's just…yeah, it's just really dark.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

IAN URBINA: My name is Ian Urbina. I'm an investigative journalist, and I've been working at The New York Times for 17 years. And I've been reporting on lawlessness at sea for about a decade. The ocean through history has always been a place that people go to get away from landed life and to get away from other things: laws, governments. It's been this metaphor for freedom. It's also this dark dystopian place, home to pretty shocking inhumanities. And because of the lack of governance, of laws, of law enforcement, that dark side of inhumanities generally occurs with impunity.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN ON SPEAKER: Guns pointed at our faces. Guns pointed directly at our faces.

Ian Urbina: I do really think the outlaw ocean is the last frontier on the planet.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN OVER SPEAKER: Have you rescued the man in the water? Over.

[Indistinct shouting and intense music]

MAN OVER SPEAKER: Don’t take photos. Don’t take photos. You have sea slavery, gunrunning, murder, rape.

BROADCASTER 1: A little boat crowded with children sold into slavery. Overfishing and illegal fishing, intentional dumping of oil and other waste, not just spills.

BROADCASTER 2: Marine scientists say they have identified more than 25,000 barrels of DDT.

UNNAMED MAN: You see, it's coming all the way there. There’s the spill.

IAN URBINA: Any variety of piracy from stealing of fuel by siphoning it off to boarding ships and taking hostages. It's this sort of Wild West, a watery Wild West. You know, through my career, much of my reporting has focused on labor abuses, how workers of various sorts are typically taken advantage of and abused but nothing compared to what I found in the fishing industry. These workers are so far from land and so invisible to the people that benefit from their labor. They're moving from one place to the next. So it's not a stationary factory. And the workers themselves typically are undocumented and usually from developing countries. So, for all these reasons, they're distinctly vulnerable. When this video came to my source at Interpol, he immediately knew it was perfect to send to me because this is exactly the sort of brutality that I wanted to report on. I called my source who had sent it to me and asked him to tell me what that was about, what he knew about that. And what I found out then was this footage had been found on a cell phone that had been left in the back of a taxi in Fiji. My suspicion was that one of the deckhands at the scene of the crime, when the captain collected the cell phones from everyone else, he held onto his. And then when he got back to shore, he went out for a night drinking and forgot his phone, you know, in the back of a taxi. And so my suspicion was that the culprits of this crime probably were in Fiji at some point and the ship might have even docked there. So, I went to the Fijians and talked with the police inspector and what the Fijians told me was that they determined that the guys in the water were not Fijian. The ships are not Fijian. And from what they could tell, none of the deckhands or crew were Fijian, so their interest in the case was over. There was this strange disparity. On the one hand, you had this trove of evidence.

SOUNDCLIP

CAPTAIN: (in Chinese): Shoot, shoot, shoot!

IAN URBINA: You had actual video footage, which is rare at sea because cameras are often confiscated. You have definitive proof of murder, you know, in that footage. You had at the end of the footage, the faces of witnesses or culprits. So on the one hand, you've got really strong evidence. On the other hand, you have no clue who the guys in the water are, no clue who the guys firing the gun are, no clue where this happened, when it happened. You have no physical evidence from the scene, like the, the bullets or the weapons. You don't even know what ship registries, ship owners, fishing companies to begin honing in on. So that was the very first priority, is to try to figure out where the incident happened and also whose ships those are, where their ships were flagged.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language]

IAN URBINA: I figured if I just watched the video enough times, I could start finding clues. And eventually, I noticed that there was a ship in the background. And you can make out some of its identifying numbers. And so, with help from sources, I was able to identify that one vessel. And that was probably the biggest initial break in starting to hone in what country they were from and what fleet they were part of. The vessel that emerged was the Chun I 217. And this was a Taiwanese owned tuna longline vessel. What that enabled me to do was immediately go for the corporate records of that ship and ideally figure out whether it was part of a fleet. I was able to hone in on the company that owned the 217, figure out who ran that company, the CEO. Lo and behold, the CEO of that company was a pretty big player within Taiwan. Harassed him a bit, took a while of calling, and finally was able to get on the phone with him and, through a translator, asked him about this incident. And what I learned was he was aware of the incident. The captain from that vessel had reported the incident to him and the CEO had asked the captain to write up a report about it so that he could alert law enforcement. But the CEO wouldn't give me the name of the captain, wouldn't hand over the report he'd given. He also said that the 217 was just a witness to the crime and that the captain was still out at sea and therefore he couldn't be interviewed. That's as much as I got. So I turn next to the prosecutor's office and Taiwan and the fisheries agency that oversees fishing. And I was stonewalled far more. The fisheries agency said that they couldn't say anything about the case except that they didn't even know whether this was murder. This may have been self-defense. It's too hard and early to tell. And that struck me as strange, you know, for anyone who had watched the video. The CEO had said that these were pirates in the water from what his captain had told him, but that just struck me as a little bit dubious. And the more I talked with experts about whether the men being shot in the water look and seem like Somali pirates, I became more skeptical. Number one, you can make out a flag on the wooden wrecked ship and pirates don't fly flags. There's no reason for them to have identifying marks on their ships. So that made no sense whatsoever. You see no weapons anywhere in the water or in the boat itself. And then just the, the nature of the kind of boat that had been wrecked, which is most likely a wooden dhow. These are kind of traditional Pakistani, Somali, Indian fishing boats. And they're really solid. They don't flip easy, but they're slow. They're really slow, and hijacking a big Taiwanese steel sided tuna long liner from a dhow didn't make any sense either.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language and gunshots]

IAN URBINA: There's such a clear disparity between the people firing the guns and the people being hit by them. The guys in the water are 10 to 20 feet below the deck of the ship, flailing about, open handed, unarmed. There are fishing nets in their boat. No weapons to be seen in the boat. The boat's sinking anyway. This is pure murder. There's no scenario in which that would be justifiable for us.

SOUNDCLIP

CAPTAIN: [in Chinese] Shoot, shoot, shoot!

IAN URBINA: Normally when crimes like this happen on land, it would be much harder for this story to go away. You know, there would be reporters and advocates and lawyers and families that would be all over it. But at sea, because, you know, the evidence disappears, there are no skid marks on the sea. As one cop mentioned to me, you know, like bodies stay disappeared, they don't get unearthed and autopsies conducted on them, they get eaten by what's below. You know, that the reality of what happened out there makes it much easier for countries and law enforcement, governments to simply turn the other way. I've worked on coal mining and oil and gas industry and, you know, industries that don't particularly love investigative reporters. And even in those realms, you can always find people who will engage on some level. And what was so striking in this realm was every person who even answered their phone at the fisheries agency or the flag registry or the law enforcement, the Navy would point me to someone else and just sort of give me this constant runaround.

SOUNDCLIP

TRANSLATED VOICE: So we reject groundless or unwarranted accusations.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Categorically deny all the information contained in the two reports that I had mentioned.

BROADCASTER 6: Statistics are rejected by industry officials here who question the sources and reliability of the…

IAN URBINA: The old saying is crime is only countered as much as it is counted, and at sea, that's not much. Not only is there no central database for this kind of information. Most flag registries actually don't even want it because if they knew it, they might be required to do something about it. So there's just this general structural discouragement for the collection, centralization, making public of this kind of data. Putting a number to a lack is always tough, especially when you're talking about black market activity. But the estimate I get from Navy folks who do these investigations is less than 1% of all crimes at sea are ever investigated, much less prosecuted. I went and watched the video again and just found myself haunted by it.

SOUNDCLIP

Voice echoing.

IAN URBINA:And then came the major break.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN COPELAND: My name is Duncan Copeland. I'm the executive director of Trygg Mat Tracking, commonly known as TMT.

IAN URBINA: Duncan got in touch with me after we published the murder story and said that he, too, had been working on that case on behalf of a client, Canadian guy, ex-military, and he runs a firm called Trygg Mat Tracking, which is this Norwegian based firm that specializes in maritime crime.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN COPELAND: TMT is an organization that essentially works as an intelligence support unit to coastal states, to inter-government organizations and other partners. This video was sent to us by one of our partner countries with a request to investigate a little bit more on a few key questions about it. What we did was we pieced together, from the very grainy and very shaky footage, different areas of the vessel. And while many fishing vessels that are targeting the same kind of species and using the same type of gear are broadly similar, most vessels do have small, unique features, and this boat that was in the video had a couple of interesting features that were not that common. So there's something called a chalk. This is where they run the lines through when they're tying up to a dock or to another ship. And the configuration of that was a little bit different. We were able to count the number of ports in part of the boat and so on. We then ran a comparison through our systems and in the end we looked at over 3000 photos of around 300 vessels and luckily we were able to hit on two vessels that match enough of the features and one in particular that had a fairly high confidence level. And that boat was a vessel called the Ping Shin, number 101.

IAN URBINA: The Ping Shin 101 was completely new to me. I did not know that vessel. And furthermore, that same ship had been an equally violent, potentially deadly filmed clash a couple months earlier that TMT had the video for.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN COPELAND: We were scouring YouTube for other examples, either involving this vessel or related incidences, and we came across a video involving the same vessel. In this one, it didn't involve a shooting, but what it did show was essentially the vessel very aggressively trying to run down a smaller wooden boat.

UNKNOWN WOMAN: Yeah. Oh. (Continues speaking in foreign language)

DUNCAN COPELAND: In the background, you can hear a lot of noise. And that noise is very much one of excitement of the chase.

IAN URBINA: So at this stage, we've pieced together a couple of things. One, we now knew the Ping Shin 101 was likely our shooter vessel. The Chun I 217 was a witness vessel. We also now were able to hone in on who the captain on the Ping Shin 101 was, which we did that through other maritime documents. And it was a guy who was a young Chinese national who had for a while been working on Taiwanese vessels, and he was the captain at the time of the Ping Shin 101. And we also knew that the Ping Shin 101 seemed to have been involved in other clashes.

SOUNDCLIP

DUNCAN COPELAND: So Taiwan was the flag state, but had also been licensed by Seychelles for some time to operate their waters. So we had a number of different avenues now of authorities who were related to this vessel. In the end, we put out three reports to the countries that we worked with. So not just Norway, but also the Indian Ocean states and states like Taiwan. But it ran up against a roadblock in the sense that there was no one country that was willing to step forward and identify itself as taking a lead role in this. We can't do enforcement where we're a non-governmental organization. It's our role to help those processes, but a country has to do them. And so the inaction on this one was particularly frustrating.

IAN URBINA: A really important point of context for understanding the murder video is to realize how the seas have been weaponized over the last 20 years. Previously, the presence of semi-automatic weapons on a fishing vessel would have been a telltale sign of criminality. The only entities that were allowed to have arms were states. In other words, navies. Ships other than that we're not really supposed to have arms on board, and that was sort of an agreed upon cultural norm. Then Somali piracy happened.

SOUNDCLIP

BROADCASTER 7 Breaking news this morning. Pirates off the coast of Somalia have struck again.

BROADCASTER 8: Of nearly 300 attacks reported last year, more than a third have taken place near the coast of Somalia.

BROADCASTER 9: Four more ships, including the Greek managed Irene, have been hijacked by Somali pirates in the last two days.

IAN URBINA: So this was a booming industry by 2009, 2010. And we were talking hundreds of millions of dollars being made on the ransom and theft of cargo and the ransom of crew.

SOUNDCLIP

UNKNOWN HOSTAGE 1: This is our 27th day in captivity. Our kidnappers are losing patience.

UNKNOWN HOSTAGE 2: Please help us. Please help us before we die. Please, please. Tell the government, tell the company to pay them so we can get home. Please.

IAN URBINA: Companies and insurers then began requiring that any vessel that go through high risk areas that were mapped on the globe had to have private maritime security on board. And overnight, you had the emergence of private maritime security industry that grew to, you know, a twenty billion dollar industry. So on the one hand, after 2008, you had the governments of the world realizing they couldn't do anything about this, so the private sector had to deal with it and so everyone arms up. On the other hand, you have in the post-9-11 moment the opposite trend where countries are becoming even more nervous about attack, you know, and so they are passing often with the U.S. prodding a lot stricter rules about port security. And what that means is a bind. Everyone's got guys with guns so as to get through the dangerous neighborhoods, but no one's allowed to have the guys with guns on board when they need to drop off their cargo. So what do you do? Can't just throw them overboard. So that submerges the clever solution, which is these floating armories.

SOUNDCLIP

INFORMATION SOURCE: Shipping companies looking for protection, bought excess patrol boats, converted those to act as private escorts and started hiring them out to provide anti-piracy security.

IAN URBINA: They tend to be these converted ships that have storage lockers, huge storage facilities where all the guys keep their weapons and check them upon arrival and then bunking quarters, and they might have 20, 30, 40 guys who are dropped off there. They're floating literally just a mile or two across the line from national and international waters.

SOUNDCLIP

UNKNOWN MAN: We are just leaving resolution. No request permission to come along starboard side to conduct a transfer. (Followed by radio chatter)

IAN URBINA: Ship unloads its cargo, comes back out and heads to a new neighborhood. Maybe it's a new, dangerous neighborhood so they pick more guys up, or maybe it's not, so they don't pick guys up. So these security guards stay on these armories and wait for their next mission. So it's this weird, weird realm.

SOUNDCLIP

UNKNOWN MAN: All, then get your passports. We'll put you on there, OK?

IAN URBINA: The minute I heard about it, I thought, I have to get there. My visit to the armory was part of the period when I was investigating violence in general and the murder video in particular. So I wanted to talk with him about that murder video and just see, did anyone know anything about it and what their take on that in general was. They watched it all in silence and no one said anything, and kind of awkward quiet filled the space. And after it was all over, one finally said, “You know, not how I would have handled it, but sometimes that's how things get handled.” That's all he would say. A year later, I heard that Nat Geo and this investigator, Karsten Von Holsten, were intensely looking into the story and picking up where I'd left off. He tracked the captain of the Ping Shin 101, i.e. the person who ordered the killings and, with real scrappiness, was able to locate four witnesses who were on the vessels at the time of shooting and interview those guys in the Philippines and elsewhere. And he put names to the various players to an extent that I was not able to do. There's one main guy in the video, in the selfies at the end who's wearing a shirt that says “Hang ten” on it. And Carson was able to find that guy and his name is Maximo, and he sat down and interviewed him extensively.

[Whirring and gunshots]

IAN URBINA: What Maximo said was that he did not believe these guys in the water were pirates. They had fishing nets. They were not armed. They were yelling for help. Another big revelation from Maximo is that the captain not only ordered the security guards to fire, but at one point actually took the weapon and fired himself. The security guard had hesitated and said, “I can't shoot these guys. They're Muslim.” And the captain grabbed the gun from him and opened fire. Maximo said that it was certainly more than the four people killed that you see on camera that died that day. And more likely, the number of men killed in the water was closer to ten or 15.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speech in foreign language and water sloshing]

IAN URBINA: Carson compiled his evidence. I compiled my subsequent reports and the original reporting. We both separately called meetings with the Taiwanese government, submitted to the prosecutor's office and were met with just dead silence. And then yet another wrinkle emerged, and that was that the Ping Shin 101, which again is the ship that we now know the shooters were shooting from, mysteriously disappeared, and it disappeared to the bottom of the ocean. What makes the lack of investigation and prosecution even more egregious is that this murder was not an isolated case. We have not only the emergence of a different video of a similar violent clash with this vessel, but then in interviews with crew from the vessel, they recount a third incident that did result in murder of other fishermen. And so there's reasonable suspicion that that captain is engaging in a pattern of extreme violence.

SOUNDCLIP

[Shouting in foreign language]

IAN URBINA: I think one huge factor in understanding why impunity is so prevalent is the nature of the victims. Typically, the victims of these crimes are migrant, undocumented, and often from developing nations. And as such, their lives are valued less. And that means that when things go wrong, you're less likely to hear about them. And even if you do, there's less leverage, money, political import for anyone to do anything about it. If the victims had been Americans or Germans or, you know, Norwegians, I think there wouldn't have been a story for me to tell. It would have already been known. The footage would have already bubbled up immediately to law enforcement. And then certainly what would have happened after I put it on the front page, my phone would have been ringing off the hook. And I feel pretty confident saying that Captain, once he was named, would have been pulled off the seas within days. You know, the story has been put on the front page of the New York Times and there's been a documentary series about it and huge global attention. And yet, seven years later, this captain had not been arrested, even though they know where he is and he's not been prosecuted for a crime for which the evidence is overwhelming.

SOUNDCLIP

[Eerie music shifts to uplifting music]

[Indistinct chatter]

IAN URBINA: There was a real reckoning that occurred with the murder video investigation. Number one, it confronted me with just how impenetrable the maritime Merry-Go-Round was. And the other realization was that on the other side of that bureaucratic wall, were the victims, the culprits, the witnesses, the actual players themselves who were on the vessels. And if you could get to them, you could unpack this world.

SOUNDCLIP

[Uplifting music and shouting]

IAN URBINA: The fishing industry and the ocean realm in general is a very insular, closed culture and so more impenetrable than, you know, other industries I’ve covered before. The topic was getting under my skin. I was developing a certain fluency and expertise and I realized more than ever that I should stick with it. You know, I should use the momentum I had acquired to go after all these other stories I was now able to see that no one was covering. It's important to remember that we only knew about the murder video by pure happenstance. I mean, it ended up in a taxi in Fiji and someone happened to hand it over to someone that knew to get it to me. So if that's the case for something as egregious as this, what other incredible stories, egregious stories were out there still to be discovered?

CC: Tune in tomorrow for episode two of The Outlaw Ocean. And if you're looking for more from CBC podcasts - you can find this series and many more on the CBC listen app. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. I'm Catherine Cullen. Thanks for listening to The Current.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Monday August 14, 2023 Full Transcript

More Stories Like This