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The Current Transcript for June 19, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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FEMALE SPEAKER: You’d listen, you’d, you know, offer a few words of comfort. Sometimes, it's a hand on a shoulder. Sometimes, you just sit and weep with someone as they're weeping.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dauphin, Manitoba is reeling after a bus crash that killed 15 seniors and injured another 10 last week. We will head there to speak with those helping their neighbours navigate through this tragedy. That's coming up in 30 minutes. Also this morning, it is Pride month, a time for celebration in the LGBTQ community. But amid a rising number of hate related incidents particularly targeting trans people, Pride for many feels different this year.

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JOSHUA LECLAIR: There's a well-oiled machine that will cost lives.

MG: In an hour, anger, anxiety and what Pride means in 2023. But we begin with a warning from the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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ERIN O’TOOLE

Guest: Erin O’Toole

MG: Erin O'Toole took over the Conservative Party in 2020 with a pledge to be true blue. A year and a half later, he was ousted in a caucus revolt. And now, after more than a decade as the member of parliament for the riding of Durham in Ontario, Erin O'Toole has left public life altogether. In his farewell speech in the House of Commons last week, he warned about the direction that politics is going.

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ERIN O’TOOLE: Too many of us are often chasing algorithms down a sinkhole of diversion and division. We are becoming elected officials who judge our self-worth by how many likes we get on social media, but not how many lives we change in the real world.

MG: That was Erin O'Toole in the House of Commons last week, and today, he is live in studio with me. Erin O'Toole, good morning.

ERIN O’TOOLE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Glad to have you here. Most Canadians don't get to address the House of Commons. That was your farewell speech. I wonder what was going through your mind when you stood up to give it last week.

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, it's very special that my family in the gallery, something that could never happen when I was leader of the opposition because of COVID. So my wife and children were there, my parents and a number of key people from my time in politics. And so that was special. And I know a lot of politicians that don't get that last chance. They lose an election or something happens and they don't get a final address. So I wanted to thank the people that have been on my political journey, thank the people of Durham for their trust, but also talk about a few things that worry me about the state of debate and politics in Western democracies and share that wisdom before I left. And hopefully, people on both sides take a little something from it.

MG: You talked about performance politics and virtue signalling. Who exactly were you speaking about?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I'm speaking to everyone because I do think if you look at the last two general elections, we now have minority governments where the government forged the seats in the House of Commons with fewer aggregate votes. So people are maintaining the support of their existing voting coalitions, whether it's the liberals, the conservatives, and they're not necessarily speaking outside of that. And part of that is strategic. Part of it is also just a result of social media now, something that really wasn't there, Matt, when I was elected almost 11 years ago. It was a broadcast tool about here's where I'm going to go on the weekend. Now, it is feeding your voting base with your message. And sometimes, your message is actually coming from that same voter base. So you're not speaking outside of your little preference bubble. And I think slowly, that's causing some of the polarization we see.

MG: Tell me more about that because we've been talking about bad behaviour in the House of Commons for a long time, and now, you say that technology has made things worse. How do you see it really making things worse? Is it that much worse than it was, the behaviour in the House of Commons, the polarization, the sense of micro-targeting those voters than it has been in the last decade?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I think, you know, behaviour in the House and the heckling, that's one thing. When people's message is being narrow cast to the people that are already following you and you may only be trying to speak to another small group that you're targeting, it's not broad national narratives that you're seeing coming out of any of the major parties right now. You're seeing a lot of reflection from what their existing supporters are seeing. So it's exacerbating rural urban tensions and it's exacerbating Western Canadian tensions versus the Laurentian Centre of Canada, as it's called. And that's going to continue unless some politicians on all sides are willing to take a step back and say, some of these issues are national in purpose. And so while there might be, you know, some flack in a certain region on something, whether it's energy, whether it's the environment, we owe it to the country to make sure that everyone sees themselves reflected in what we're debating.

MG: You said that social media is starting to tear democracy down. Do you believe that, that that's happening here?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I do to a certain extent.

MG: Because we talk about that elsewhere and the role of Facebook in particular in elections abroad. But you believe that that's happening here?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Yes. And the fortunate part for Canada is we've got a much more robust democracy. We're a much more pluralistic society. So I think we're immune. But a lot of the polarization that we're seeing in other Western democracies, France, the U.K., the United States, we see elements here. And I meet people on the streets of Bowmanville who are asking me questions whether, lately, it was about 15 minute cities or the World Economic Forum. They're reading things that are forwarded from their friend on social media and they may not be listening to traditional news or watching the nightly news. That kind of concept is gone. You know, media landscape is changing, so people are self-selecting their news and they're not sure if it's even true in some cases. And so I love it if anybody ever asks me about those things because then I can kind of clarify what the issue is and not play into some narrative. But we're seeing this from the shutdown Canada protests of years ago to this World Economic Forum or criticism of the U.N. bordering on conspiracy. That is being teed up to people because if they look at one video, they will get 20 shown to them because of the algorithm. So I think politicians have to realize this is happening and try to make sure that we can have serious national debates, we can argue strenuously, Matt. But I think if we're just parroting issues for our existing voter bases, whether liberal or conservative, we're going to see more of this continued polarization.

MG: What do you regret in your own behaviour?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I've said many times, you know, talking about cancel culture or sometimes Indigenous reconciliation. I've been flippant sometimes talking about history or historic figures, these sorts of things. I've tried to recognize where I've fallen short. In my speech, I included myself in the discussion about how politics has changed. This wasn't really the pressure cooker or pressure of social media 10 years ago when I first started.

MG: But a couple of years ago, you did a video in which you said the next office for Justin Trudeau would be a porta potty next to his office in downtown Ottawa. Why did you say that?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, and that's a video that, you know, people love to present as a mistake. It was a mistake. It was a crass dumb joke, but it was also not presented… I did not do that as leader of the official opposition, as some people suggest on social media.

MG: You still did it, though.

ERIN O’TOOLE: I still did it. Yeah.

MG: So why did you do it?

ERIN O’TOOLE: And that's a great example. Well, at that point, it was the leadership and I was speaking to, you know, 250, 300,000 Canadians. And because of the pandemic, most of what we were doing was on social media. And so you do a little bit of a statement on your policy issue. In that case, I was at Langevin Block talking about how do we balance off the past versus the present. And then I do this stupid joke at the end because I'm really broadcasting Facebook Live to our partisans. It's not my finest moment, Matt. I'd be the first to admit that. That's actually not what I consider to be my most flippant, my most tone deaf comment. It was another time talking about Ryerson. But I've always tried to not shy away from tough issues. But when you're dealing with tough issues, particularly one that deals with intergenerational trauma, you have to show that the respect is due. And I haven't always lived up to that.

MG: The new leader of the party has been getting all sorts of attention for what he does on social media. People see this as a strength of his. Why do you think that the videos and the tone in particular that Pierre Poilievre has taken, why do you think that's stuck?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, I think coming out of the pandemic, the tensions in our society are real. And, you know, I think we had an election run on vaccine mandates and, you know, these sort of polarizations from lockdowns. There's more frustration in the country. And I think Pierre is trying to represent that. And he has a different tone and style, but I think the people he's speaking to, many of whom are kind of feeling forgotten by the federal government. So how can all leaders make sure there are nobody in our society feeling like nobody's talking to them? And I think there's a level of anger and frustration in some parts of the country that I think he's trying to let them know they're being heard.

MG: He says Canada is broken. Do you believe Canada is broken?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, if you look at line ups for passports, you're looking at every week, a minister says they don't read their emails or they misrepresent the facts on the Paul Bernardo case. Whether you can say Canada's not performing well or…

MG: Do you think it's broken, do you think this country is broken?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I'm an eternal optimist, Matt, so I think the government is broken right now. I think there's no accountability. We've seen that with, you know, the David Johnston affair and the Chinese interference, the fact that liberals did nothing. Mr. Mendicino is in hot water over a number of comments he's made. So I think there is a sense that Ottawa is completely disconnected. It's got more people working for it than it's ever had.

MG: People across the country, though, would say that Ottawa is not Canada.

ERIN O’TOOLE: True.

MG: And I don't mean to stay on this too long, but saying Canada is broken is for a lot of people a breathtaking statement. It doesn't sound as though you agree that this country is broken.

ERIN O’TOOLE: I think there's a lot of things that aren't going well right now. My approach to things generally is a little more optimistic. You know, my own podcast is called Blue Skies because I'm very optimistic. But you look at some of the urban centres and the challenges we have with addiction, with homelessness, with, you know, the affordability crisis. There is a malaise right now in the country, and it's part of the reason I gave my speech, Matt, is I want all parties, including my own, to step up and meet, meet the needs, meet the demands of this malaise, not make it worse. And so I think everyone in the next election should be accountable to have policies not just to point out the challenges, but to point out real solutions. And that's what I think politicians need to do more of.

MG: In some ways, it goes back to the first question that I asked, which is who was that speech directly addressing? There's a by-election that's happening in Manitoba today, and the conservative candidate has run in many ways on this idea of the World Economic Forum being some sort of, you know, scary place where big decisions are being made. Pierre Poilievre has said that no cabinet minister of his would be going to the World Economic Forum. Why not say that this is your party, say that this is coming from your party?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, I used that example in my speech, Matt. I talked about the World Economic Forum because I think we should explain that Canada needs to be at every international table, whether it’s something on peace, economic potential for our country. That's why Stephen Harper went there to talk about our energy prowess as a country. In that same speech, though, I talked about the demonization of hunters and firearms owners. I've seen that time after time after time as a suburban Toronto MP. I know how the fears of violence can be played on in a way. So I've seen that. There's enough to go around in my message, Matt, and it's not just my party. It's all politics right now. And I think you're seeing that sort of other held up. Whether the other is the big bankers or the corporate world that folks on the left hold out as holding everyone back, or whether it's someone suggesting it's an international forum or a business meeting like Davos, I think we have to sort of say, if you think those meetings are not representing Canada's interest, go there and argue for another path. That's where I think Canada shouldn't be isolationist. And I think, as I said, hopefully, people take away stuff from my speech. I've heard from MPs on all sides. They're feeling it. They're living it. I'd like to see all of us stand up a little bit more.

MG: We were in Alberta for the lead up to the provincial election, and we heard from a number of moderate conservatives who felt as though the extremes were determining the future of their party there. But they’re worried about this broadly as well. I just wonder how you think core conservative values have changed over the last decade. Do you worry that the extremes are pushing out people who might come to that party from a centre but don't feel as though the centre is being reflected?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, I think this is one of the lasting effects of the pandemic. And, you know, right now, there's a lot of people that are in the Conservative Party primarily motivated by vaccine politics or, you know, fighting against lockdowns. You know, this was one of my big challenges as leader, Matt. Most of the provinces that were having restrictions on people's lives or lockdowns like here in Toronto, provincially, there were conservatives. And so I didn't want to get into squabbles about the best health measures to keep people safe. I find there's almost a disconnect from why these decisions were being made. We were trying to keep people safe, but that has caused a major influx of people to our party. And how do we balance off the traditional kind of conservative ordered Liberty Party that I've talked about this. I don't like to see disorder, whether it's truckers on the street or whether it's flags with a profanity laden prime minister's name. That's the antithesis of being conservative, because for us traditional conservatives, you don't have liberty without order, and you can't have that if you're defying the law.

MG: Which is perhaps why you're no longer the leader of the Conservative Party. That in part was why you were shown the door. And I just wondered now, I mean, is it possible to keep the conservative base without alienating the more moderate, and you call them urban voters, that the party is going to need to form government? You've tried and you failed. I think it's fair to say you failed at that because you're no longer the leader. You're leaving politics. Is it possible to do that?

ERIN O’TOOLE: That will be the big test in the next election. I think we were doing that in the pandemic, but for the rise of the Delta wave and then the challenges out West. And when Premier Kenney had to reverse his position on vaccine mandates, it was challenging for us, to say the least.

MG: But there were other things that came before that. I mean, you said you moved to a position where you would embrace a price on carbon. Canada's burning right now. There are wildfires across this country. Is that something that the Conservative Party needs to embrace right now?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I've said we need to show a true path to get our emissions down to be part of the global fight against climate change. I proposed a solution. It probably disappointed people on both left and right, but it was actually measured and something that would have made our Paris goals. We spent a lot of time trying to get that right. I think this is again the algorithms. People have been built up to be so scared about any policy with respect to climate that they're just opposed to it. And it's turning some people in to denying that it's even an issue. So I think Pierre can cancel the carbon tax, but he's going to have to replace it with something. How are you going to get our emissions down? And I think a lot of urban and suburban voters, especially here in the GTA or in Vancouver, want to see a fiscally conservative party with a pragmatic approach on the environment. So that will be, I've called it the secret sauce he needs to define because it's easy to cut a tax. But if our emissions start going back up with what we're seeing around the country with the expectations of my children's generation, they want us to get serious here. So I think that's one of the reasons why I wasn't successful with our caucus, is people didn't want us to touch that issue. I think we have to touch it.

MG: What about issues of… You said you would march in a pride parade and you faced all sorts of heat from people within your own party and supporters of that party. Do you think that Pierre Poilievre should march in the Pride parade?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, I think we had, you know, a dozen or so of our members in the York Pride parade just this last weekend. I was seeing some of that on social media.

MG: What about the leader of the party?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I think he has to show a way to show all Canadians that they're welcome in our movement. I think he has some of the statements I've seen, but I do know the politics within the politics. I was always as somebody who served in the military, I wanted to make sure that the pride parade I was going to support. And I'd gone to pride events in my riding. So it wasn't a big surprise that I was very, you know, pro LGBTQ. The issue was I didn't want it to exclude police officers and things like this. So that was always where I tried to say, where can I go where it's about celebrating difference, celebrating individuality without getting into other politics that sometimes can be, you know, anti-police, anti-uniformed services? I think how you show support for every single part of our country, including… its Pride Month, including the LGBTQ community, has to be part of the leadership approach of anyone running to lead the whole country.

MG: Are you actually confident, just the last point on this, we're almost out of time, but are you actually confident that people will actually start speaking with each other in this country, that the people with those flags, the profanity laden flags that I saw, I was in Ottawa this weekend in front of Parliament Hill, that they will be willing to talk to other people and other people would be willing to talk to them? Are we actually going to get to that place?

ERIN O’TOOLE: I think so. I think society is a bit like an elastic, Matt. We've been stretched really, really thin in the pandemic. You see that tension being relieved a little bit. I think people are now talking more. They're out. I'm here in studio with you. I find a lot of people are podcasting, YouTubing because they want a longer form discussion like the conversation we've had, not just the little sound bite or the tweet or the swipe right that we're seeing on a lot of the social media platforms. So it's up to all of us to take charge of these discussions. We've got a great country. We've got incredible blessings. You look around the world, Canada's very fortunate, but we can't take that for granted. And that's where all parties, all Canadians really have to step up and be part of it.

MG: Two final questions briefly. One is around this issue of electoral interference. Who should lead a public inquiry, do you think?

ERIN O’TOOLE: [laughing] Well, I've had a few people say, hey, you should. Well, I've got a clearly bias in that whereas, you know, I was the target of some of the interference.

MG: You tried to get away from it.

ERIN O’TOOLE: Over the weekend, I was actually looking at a few federal court justices who have experience on national security and wiretapping and sort of national security issues that I think would be appropriate. You could also have a few. And each party has, you know, eminent persons that have been involved. As long as there's consultations, this isn't coming from Mr. Trudeau's PMO, there has to be a way to look at this because we should make this non-partisan. Over time, this will interfere with municipal politics, provincial, federal. I hope they take the inquiry route, and there's a lot of great justices that could do it.

MG: Just very briefly, finally, as you leave public life, for people who would consider… You left, you know, as a Bay Street lawyer, got into public service. For somebody who's thinking about doing that but is worried about everything we've talked about, particularly the tone of politics, what's one word, briefly, that you would say to them?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Jump in. I know that’s two words.

MG: You don't regret it at all.

ERIN O’TOOLE: I don't. I've been able to meet so many people in my riding, Matt, and we've helped so many families, veterans that I was able to help having national discussions on mental health, meeting First Nation leaders and becoming an advocate on reconciliation. It is a blessing to serve despite the slings and arrows. And if we want to see that that conversation get better, we need more smart women and men to step up and be part of the conversation. So don't look at Twitter. Look at your kids and say, I'm doing it for them.

MG: Glad to have you here this morning and I hope we have the chance to talk again. In the meantime, thank you very much.

ERIN O’TOOLE: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Erin O'Toole, former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. He served as the member of parliament for the riding of Durham in Ontario since 2012. He's been live with us in studio. Your CBC News is next. And then.

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MALE SPEAKER: It’s as though we have a poll of sadness and grief over everyone. Things are muted. When you ask people how they are, they say, you know, struggling or holding up or, you know, as well as can be expected.

MG: Days after a deadly bus crash, we will head to the community of Dauphin, Manitoba, where people, as you heard, are grieving. We'll talk about support being offered coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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DAUPHIN UPDATE

Guests: Erin Collins, Kim Armstrong, Deacon Frances Stewart

MG: Hello. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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[Church bells ringing]

MG: It was a sombre Sunday at church services in Dauphin, Manitoba.

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[piano playing, singing]

MALE SPEAKER: In regards to the serious accident outside of Carberry involving so many from Dauphin, we're praying for all the individuals involved in the accident, but for the whole community. I'd like to share at a time like this that the feelings, the tears, they're not signs of weakness. Not at all. They are signs of love and that we share a common humanity.

MG: Residents of this small city are trying to come to terms with the immense loss in their community of grandmothers, grandfathers, aunts and uncles. 15 seniors died when the bus they were in collided with a semi-trailer on Thursday while they were headed on a day trip to the Sand Hills Casino. CBC National reporter Erin Collins has spent the weekend travelling around Manitoba from the crash site near Carberry to the streets of Dauphin and he joins us now. Erin, good morning.

ERIN COLLINS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How would you describe the mood in Dauphin?

ERIN COLLINS: Well, I mean, no surprise. You know, people here, they're in shock, right? A tragedy of this size, this big, it's impossible to wrap your head around to comprehend it in just a few days, right? It's a pretty small place. It's a little city on the prairie. Just eight or 9000 people live here. And folks, they're really connected to each other, right? So with so many lives lost and so many people really, really badly injured, most people here, they're really connected to this story in some way. Like they're breathing it in. You can almost feel the trauma in the air.

MG: Yesterday was Sunday and of course, people would have gathered at places of worship. And you saw people who are finding comfort there in those places of worship. Who did you meet?

ERIN COLLINS: Yeah. So, I mean, my family's from a town, you know, not too different from this one, Matt. And if you've been to a place like this on the prairies or really anywhere across the country, there's a church on pretty much every other block, right? It's where people gather in good times and bad. And that's where I ran into Manuel Nakonechny. And if you want to understand that connectedness that I was talking about, how people are connected here, Manuel is the perfect example. He's a driver for the company that owns the bus that crashed. He lives across the street from the driver that's in the hospital, and he knows pretty much everyone that was on that bus Thursday.

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MANUEL NAKONECHNY: Just last week, we took two buses to Clearlake with two loads of seniors, and we had a great time. The seniors had a great time. And all of a sudden, this just comes out of nowhere. It's just unbelievable. And this is just so hard to handle. Like yeah.

ERIN COLLINS: How are you processing this? You mentioned it's just… you can't even…

MANUEL NAKONECHNY: I'm trying to be with other people just to try to get my mind off it. And wake up in the middle of the night and it's just totally right there. There's just no getting away from it.

MG: You can hear that in his voice, just the scale of the tragedy and how personal it is for people in that community. How much do we know about the people who died on that bus?

ERIN COLLINS: Right. So that's a bit complicated, right? Officially, not a lot. We know they were seniors. We know they're from the area. But the names, they haven't been released yet. That's expected to happen later this week. But, you know, in a place like this, those names began circulating almost immediately. You can imagine that, right? I met Jesse Brezden outside that church too. And I can tell you, Matt, she heard who was on that bus right away. One of her closest friends is in the hospital.

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JESSE BREZDEN: I've known her basically all of my life. Actually, we got married basically the same year and she's the godmother to my daughter. She's in the hospital. She’s just stable, but we don't know what's… I hear like she's quite, quite broken up, I think. Yeah.

ERIN COLLINS: You're praying for her today.

JESSE BREZDEN: Oh, absolutely. For all of them actually, because there is quite a few more that need our prayers. I just hope that it’s just a nightmare, but it's not, you know.

ERIN COLLINS: So Matt, you know, we've been getting regular updates on the 10 people that are still in hospital. Six of them are in critical condition. These are elderly folks. They were really, really badly hurt. And at least so far, you know, they're still in bad shape. And I can tell you, Matt, I spent some time at the crash site standing in the scorched grass where the bus sort of wound up, and I can't understand how anyone survived.

MG: We know that the RCMP’s investigation into this is continuing. Where is that at right now?

ERIN COLLINS: Right. So they've talked to the driver of the semi that hit the bus. They've also reviewed some dashcam video of the crash and they say the semi driver did have the right of way. But it's important to note here, I should say the Mounties are really careful here not to lay any blame. They've yet to talk to the driver of the bus. Of course, you know, he's still in the hospital. And police say they probably won't have a complete understanding of what happened for months.

MG: What do we know about the bus company itself?

ERIN COLLINS: Well, we know it’s new. It was just started in December. And I've been told that the driver who's in the hospital had a lot of driving experience. We also know that it's a local company. And just this weekend, we did hear from Ashlee Harvey, the co-owner of Quality Care Transit.

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ASHLEE HARVEY: There's not enough sorries. I just don't know how to word it right now. I feel guilty for what happened and my heart aches for everybody.

ERIN COLLINS: So I mean, again, it just really brings home how interconnected everyone here is.

MG: And so in a situation like that, in a small community where, as you said, everyone knows somebody who was either on that bus, knows somebody who knew somebody who was on that bus, is related to somebody who was on that bus, what are the supports that are there for people aside from churches that people might have been attending yesterday?

ERIN COLLINS: Sure. I mean, obviously, people are leaning on each other too, but there are mental health teams that are spread sort of across the area from Dauphin to Brandon. The local curling rink has been set up to offer folks help if they need it. City officials are going to be meeting later today to discuss what else they can do. There's been talk of a vigil or some kind of formal event later this week. Dauphin's Mayor David Bosiak says it's hard to know what to do. People here really are still in shock.

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DAVID BOSIAK: There's just a sombreness, a quietness. I think people are being reflective right now. I think they're thinking about how this has impacted them and will impact them in the next week and month and years going forward.

MG: What about support from other parts of the province?

ERIN COLLINS: Lots. I mean, there's been a real outpouring of support. Of course, you'd expect that. We are expecting to hear from the premier at noon today. It's the first time we'll hear from the Premier. And folks here in the area are talking about, you know, lighting candles in their windows in the evening. I was actually sitting in the parking lot of our hotel and someone from Brandon down the road came up to me and gave me a Dauphin Strong sticker. They're apparently being sold to raise money for community outreach. There's a pack of therapy dogs and their owners sort of roaming around the community here too. I ran into them as I was interviewing a local deacon, Frances Stewart, in a park.

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FEMALE SPEAKER: This is Finn.

FRANCES STEWART: Hello, Finn. He's a therapy dog?

FEMALE SPEAKER: He’s a therapy dog. Yeah. He’s from Winnipeg.

FRANCES STEWART: Wonderful.

FEMALE SPEAKER: You can pet him. Sit. He's here to help you feel better.

FRANCES STEWART: Oops!

FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but he's here to do whatever you need him to do.

FRANCES STEWART: Yes. Oh, his lovely. Yes.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.

FRANCES STEWART: It's comforting to me.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, good.

ERIN COLLINS: And Matt, I can tell you, I certainly took a few minutes with Finn myself. It's been a tough weekend.

MG: It has indeed. Erin, take care of yourself and thank you very much for this.

ERIN COLLINS: You bet.

MG: Erin Collins is a CBC national reporter. He was in Dauphin, Manitoba. Kim Armstrong is the administrator of the Dauphin Active Living Centre. It's a senior’s centre in that community. Kim, good morning to you.

KIM ARMSTRONG: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

KIM ARMSTRONG: We're okay.

MG: Can you describe, in that being okay, which the brevity of that says a lot, I think, what's been going on at the centre over the past few days?

KIM ARMSTRONG: We had bingo on Friday. It's a regular activity and we felt it was important to offer some normalcy to people in our community. And they took advantage of it coming in and talking and reminiscing a little bit.

MG: That says something as well about the place of this centre in the community. What does this senior’s centre mean for Dauphin?

KIM ARMSTRONG: Well, it's a place for seniors to go, literally, and they do. Sometimes, we don't meet people until they need us for resources or services. However, we have activities and we have a good number of people that join us. We're always looking for new individuals. And I think over the next little while, we will see some new faces come in just to be with other seniors.

MG: What do you offer to those seniors, the people who, as you said, are looking for a physical place to come? What is it that you can offer?

KIM ARMSTRONG: Our regular programming, of course. There's activities in the centre and we offer meals and Lifeline and those kinds of things. And through this tragedy, we're offering a space to come and just be with and talk.

MG: The bus left the centre on Thursday morning, left from that centre on Thursday morning. And I know that you were there before the bus left. I’m cautious in how I ask this, but what do you remember about that morning? And just say what you're comfortable with, but what do you remember about that morning?

KIM ARMSTRONG: Well, we're always happy to partner with other organizations and we're a central place and our seniors know it. So it was a good fit that the trip left from us. I met some of the passengers in the morning. They came in just to sit and wait for the bus to come. I was teasing some of them to leave some money for everybody and they were happy they were going on a trip and doing something that they loved.

MG: I was going to say this is a day away. Yeah.

KIM ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MG: What did it mean? What did it mean for them to be involved in that group collective activity? We've all been through so much over the last few years, and it feels like we're just getting back to those sorts of things. What did it mean for them?

KIM ARMSTRONG: I can only assume. But seeing those happy faces, I think they were excited to be going on trips again, and a nice little day trip for them was perfect.

MG: You've been through a lot yourself over these last few days, and I'm wondering who are you leaning on? What are you leaning on to help you get through this?

KIM ARMSTRONG: Friends and family are very supportive. My focus, of course, is community and the people we serve.

MG: What happens to a community when a tragedy like this strikes? I mean, there is a tear in that community, but you talked about people coming for the bingo night. Are you seeing that community rallying in support and what does that look like?

KIM ARMSTRONG: In this tragedy, I see small pockets of people consoling each other, working through this and then eventually coming out to community things. This is a very private grief if you want.

MG: But the sense for people who are going through their grief is that there are people like yourself and other members of the community there who are willing to help people through, who are willing to hold people up.

KIM ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. Absolutely. As they need us. I don't want to interfere. I want them to know that they can come to us, and I think it's important that they choose to do that.

MG: I'm sorry for the loss that you have suffered over the course of this tragedy. It's very personal, as we heard, for everybody in that community. And I really appreciate you taking some time to talk to us. Take care of yourself, Kim.

KIM ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Thank you.

MG: Kim Armstrong is the administrator of the Dauphin Active Living Centre. Deacon Frances Stewart is with the St Paul's Anglican Church in Dauphin. Deacon Frances Stewart, good morning to you.

FRANCES STEWART: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me on the program.

MG: Thank you for being here. What would you say to somebody like Kim and the other members of the community that are hurting?

FRANCES STEWART: That's difficult because there are no platitudes at a time like this. It's more a matter of asking how are you? Are you doing okay? I, you know, popped in to see Kim on Friday and she was being interviewed by the Toronto Sun. She had a lot of media interviews, but just reaching out and shaking hands, listening, giving hugs.

MG: How are you doing in all of this?

FRANCES STEWART: I'm doing, as Kim said, I'm doing okay. Yesterday, I was aware… Yesterday evening, I was aware being drained and tired. And so I had an early night. And my mother phoned me too to see how I was doing and said, go and put your feet up. So I did that. So self-care is also important.

MG: What was the atmosphere like at church yesterday?

FRANCES STEWART: It was subdued, but I had a real sense that we were all glad to be together. As people came in, they talked about who they knew and their own experiences of hearing about the crash and processing the many feelings that they had. You know, the first person that came in, her neighbour was one of the people who is in hospital in Winnipeg. But she then went on to say, she said, I was also distressed to hear about the tragedy in Uganda where a school was attacked and many students killed. So although we are very focussed on what's happened in our community, people are aware that there are other things going on in the world as well.

MG: What do you see as your role as a community leader and a faith leader in a time like this?

FRANCES STEWART: Very much just to be a presence, to be with people, to be available, you know, for people. I think that the whole idea of being part of a church is that everyone is a minister, not just the ordained folk and not just the pastors or the priest or, you know, or the deacon, and that we uphold people as they in turn are reaching out to their friends and family.

MG: And so a lot of that, as you say, is just listening, is just being there and listening with people.

FRANCES STEWART: Absolutely.

MG: What has that been like for you? That must be really difficult because people are going through so much and this is personal for you as well. I know that, again, everybody knows somebody who was involved in this moment, in this tragedy. But to be there and be with somebody as they go through this grief must be incredibly difficult for you as well.

FRANCES STEWART: In some ways, yes. But it is also a special place to be able to be. I wouldn't use the word privileged, but it's good to be a small part of a larger process and to have insights as to what is going on in people's lives and to be aware of the tremendous community response. One of the moments that meant a lot to us at church yesterday was that two members of the St John's Ambulance Society came to church as guests, Paddy Kipper and Lisa Schwann. And they're part of the therapy dog program and they brought their dogs to church, Toscan and Dexter. And that was a lovely touch.

MG: We heard you with the dogs earlier in this conversation. What does that mean?

FRANCES STEWART: Yes. You know, and so I was able to, you know, to talk to some of the, you know, folk who had dogs and also to see the other people who were at the curling rink to support the community, you know, mental health workers, a social worker, the mayor was there. You know, there was a city council there and, of course, members of the Ministerial Association.

MG: People in moments like this want to try to understand why they're going through a terrible time like this. And they would ask you, I'm sure, as a faith leader, that question as well. What do you say? And you might be asking yourself this, having known people who were on that bus. What do you say to them? What do you say to yourself in that moment when people ask that question of why?

FRANCES STEWART: Well, because ours is not a perfect world. And, you know, disasters and accidents and diseases happen. And as people of faith, I think our question is to ask, our next question once we process what has happened or partly process what has happened is to ask how do I respond? What can I do? You know, who do I reach out to? And there's a wonderful tradition of hospitality in Dauphin in this part of, in the prairies in general. And so people are visiting. They’re sending cards. They’re showing up with baking and cooking. And as always in a faith community, there is a great deal of prayer.

MG: When people show up, like physically show up at someone's door in that moment, what does that mean, do you think?

FRANCES STEWART: I think it's an embodiment of love, of compassion and kindness. And it's also a two-way comfort. You go to comfort someone and in the midst of their grief, they reach out to you and comfort you. And so this is, you know, one side or one aspect of a tragedy.

MG: What kind of support do you think the community is going to need in the days and weeks, not just that emotional and spiritual support, but also support in getting through things day to day? This tragedy will live in that community, in your community for some time to come.

FRANCES STEWART: For a long time. You know, a tragedy like this is always intergenerational. And so this has affected, you know, grandparents and grand aunts and uncles. And so there are at least three, you know, three or four generations that will be marked by this event. I think it would be healthy that we talk about it, that we, you know, that we pray. And I think too that we're very thankful for our medical services and the health services and that we have a municipal government that is caring and, you know, ready to do whatever they can to help. So I think each of us will have a small role in helping us to move forward.

MG: Erin talked about those stickers that are being handed out, Dauphin Strong. What does that mean to you, the strength in that?

FRANCES STEWART: That it reminds us that we're literally a community, that we're in this together. I have had that expression used on Facebook posts to me. And I haven't actually seen the stickers, but I'm delighted that they're circulating because it reminds us that we do have strength and that we can move forward.

MG: You have an important role to play in this. And that advice that you got of finding some space for self-care, I hope you find room for that as well. It's important. But in the meantime, Deacon, thank you for speaking with us.

FRANCES STEWART: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Deacon Frances Stewart is with St Paul's Anglican Church in Dauphin, Manitoba.

[Song: “Home to Manitoba” by Del Barber]

MG: That’s Del Barber and Home to Manitoba. Coming up after your regional update, this year's Pride celebrations are happening amidst a rise in hate and anti LGBTQ rhetoric. In 90 seconds, we'll be joined by three members of the community on what pride means to them this year. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[song fades up and out]

Back To Top »

PRIDE PANEL

Guests: Fae Johnstone, Joshua Leclair, Clare Nobbs

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

EVIE ROBINSON-DYCK: We keep being told by people that we don't exist. We are important. I feel like it's most important right now to be celebrating our trans, our queer, our gay, our everything, all those youth, because they're the ones right now who currently need that support. We need to be able to show people that hey, we care. We'll still be there for you.

MG: That's a New Brunswick High School student, Evie Robinson-Dyck. This month across the country, communities big and small are celebrating Pride. But this year's celebrations feel a bit different. A series of incidents, some escalating into violence, along with suggested policy changes at schools and governments, has cast a shadow over Pride. And so we have brought together three people to discuss their experiences and thoughts on what Pride means to them now. Just a warning, this conversation includes mention of suicide. Fae Johnstone is president of Queer Momentum and Executive director of Wisdom2Action in Ottawa. Joshua Leclair is an Anishinaabe Pride organizer near Thunder Bay. And Clare Nobbs is a longtime LGBTQ activist and is with me in our studio in Toronto. Good morning, everyone.

ALL GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Clare, how are you feeling about Pride this year?

CLARE NOBBS: I'm always excited about Pride. I've been celebrating Pride in Toronto for the 31 years that I've lived in this country, and I'm grateful. I'm also anxious. My anxiety has doubled in the past month. And I'm angry. I'm angry because our identities are apparently up for debate. There are questions around who we are and why we should be celebrating, but I reject that. I put the shame aside. I refuse to be ashamed of who I am. And so I will be celebrating too.

MG: I can understand the anger to that. You mentioned the anxiety as well. What are you anxious about?

CLARE NOBBS: I'm anxious because I know how much pain the hatred causes. I've seen it. I've worked with young people, 2SLGBTQ young people for 20 years, and I know just how much it impacts their mental health. It makes me angry that there are so many incidences of hatred and threats of violence. And people don't realize that just by making a throwaway comment that's dismissive, say, of a drag queen, or that is transphobic because it's not in their experience, that will translate into violence.

MG: Fae, as a trans advocate and activist, what does Pride mean to you this year?

FAE JOHNSTONE: You know, Pride is an opportunity for our communities to come together to celebrate and to simply be together while recognizing how far we've come as a community. But just as was said, I'm scared this Pride season and I think a lot of folks are too. As an advocate, I'm waiting every day for a headline of somebody being assaulted. That's not what we're supposed to be dealing with when we're supposed to be celebrating all that we have to offer as a community.

MG: What is it like to live, as you say, waiting for those headlines and to be looking for those headlines?

FAE JOHNSTONE: It's terrifying. You know, my job is often speaking out on queer and trans issues, trying to get governments to take this rise in hate seriously. And it actually takes a toll to be seeing, you know, stories each and every day from Halifax to Thunder Bay to Kelowna, B.C., where again, like our very humanity seems to be up for debate. And it comes at a price. It comes at a price for mental health both for those of us doing this work in advocacy, but for every gay or trans kid who's seeing those headlines too.

MG: Joshua, from your perspective, when you think about young people in the community or communities, what do you worry about the most?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: A lot of things. What it all comes down to is about saving lives. And we're talking about the consequences. And the consequences is someone's child dying, someone's brother or sister dying because of things that they're experiencing living in a society that's telling them that they don't exist. We need love out there. I think the rest of Canada could learn a lot from two-spirit LGBT trans queer plus people.

MG: When you talk about lives will be lost and that this will cost lives, this comes from your own personal experience, right?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: It is. I'm 33, so I think I'm right in the middle of the millennial group. 20 years ago, I was hearing Canadians, teachers, my classmates say things because of who I was, I didn't deserve the happy family I grew up with. And at 15 and adolescence, and you're hearing that, why stay? Because of my identity and the struggles and the area that I live in Canada, I did make that attempt in my final semester of grade 12. And I'm so glad I failed because there might be somebody questioning right now because the violence and vitriol is present in all of our cities. And I'm so disappointed in my fellow citizens in Thunder Bay. There's a protest at a local Catholic school for trans school policy. And we're talking about protecting children and here we are witnessing adult people violating those safe spaces for children. So it really makes me angry. I know I have a voice and I will go speak up for those people who may have been experiencing their voice being taken away.

MG: When you say, and just to be clear, when you say an attempt, I mean, that was an attempt on your own life. You attempted suicide.

JOSHUA LECLAIR: Yes, I did. I was a chunky teenager. I had a lot of my feelings and that hook fell out of the walls. I was like crying there on the floor, also laughing at the situation of my big self breaking, breaking out of the wall. But that's my story and that's my truth.

MG: I'm glad you're here and I'm sorry that it got to that point. I just wonder in the wake of that, what was it that carried you through to be the activist that you are now?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: My love for my community, my love for people like me. You know, two spiritedness is not new to us. We're reclaiming something we've already had. We were keepers of so much knowledge in our communities traditionally, but that ugly face of Catholicism did enter our communities. And my mom had a hard time accepting me. She grew up in rural B.C., so I don't blame her for the perspectives that she was raised in. But through this last bit of my life, she's been learning. And I know this hatred can be unlearned.

MG: Clare, you're holding your chest as he's talking.

CLARE NOBBS: Yeah. I feel the pain and the sadness of Joshua’s story. Joshua, I'm so sorry you went through that. And I'm feeling deeply grateful that you are with us, and I'm so glad that you failed. So thank you for being here and bless your heart. I have heard similar stories from so many young people, and that's one of the reasons I do the work that I do, because young people who are 2SLGBTQ are on the streets. A disproportionate number of our young people are living on the streets. Approximately four to 7% of our society are 2SLGBTQIA. And yet, between 25 and 40% of those young people on the street are queer.

MG: Because they don't have a safe place at home.

CLARE NOBBS: Because they are rejected by their family, by their community, they don't feel safe.

MG: You've mentioned that you've worked with queer and trans youth for more than 20 years.

CLARE NOBBS: Mm hmm.

MG: You said that you're anxious now, that you love Pride, you celebrate Pride, but you're angry and you're anxious about what's happening in this moment. How do you understand what's happening in this moment? What's going on?

CLARE NOBBS: I got some goose bumps when you said that. What's happening now? I wish I could fully understand it, to be honest with you. I'm in disbelief. I'm shocked. A lot of my friends are just exhausted and afraid. And we have to use that energy to mobilize. What's happening right now, I'm seeing a rising tide of hatred where six months ago, people said, oh, it's mostly in the States. It's in the South. It is creeping up fast. I'm from the U.K. I'm a settler here. It's happening over there. I think what's happening is, to be honest, far right religious extremists are galvanizing. They've been given a voice by far right extreme politicians who've made space and given permission for all kinds of hateful things to be said and done against people who are different. There's a fear of difference. Why is it happening now? I think we've been through a lot the last three years. There have been people acting in silos, fermenting, gathering strength, and they don't want to see our human rights respected. They don't want to acknowledge that difference. There's five kids on my little block in eastern Toronto who are gender and sexually diverse, five kids aged between six and 16, and they are telling us we exist. Thank you for fighting for decades, for centuries for us to exist. And they are who they are whether we like it or not. And so it's up to us to show them kindness and reflect their experience.

MG: Fae Johnstone, as a trans woman, why do you think trans people are being targeted right now? And to Clare's point, it's not just things that are happening in the United States. Joshua was talking about the protests happening near his community in Thunder Bay. Why are trans people being targeted now, do you think, Fae?

FAE JOHNSTONE: You know, unfortunately, less people know a trans person than know a gay person. And then in 2023, there is still space to take an isolated example of a trans person and turn that into a narrative about a whole community. I think a lot of this is driven by deep pocketed Christian evangelicals in the U.S. who have developed a playbook. And that playbook starts with the demonization of trans people, the denial of inherent dignity to trans women in particular. But it's not just about us. These are trans women and trans people being used as tropes to fuel a broader regression on gender and sexual rights writ at large. They've got millions of dollars that they can funnel into countries around the world, like what's happening in Ghana and Uganda and also like what's happening in the U.S., U.K., Italy and right here in Canada. And if they can begin by dehumanizing trans people, if they can construct us as deviant or as dangerous, that actually sends a message about what they're trying to do next. And that's really entrenching ideas of what a good man or woman looks like. And that ends with more feminine men being attacked for looking a little bit different, with more gay women being harassed for their gender non-conformity. And so it's not just about trans people. It's part of this growing far right movement that is jumping from issue to issue to issue to create these wedges. And now they've got trans people in the limelight and they're hoping that they can send a message by tearing us apart and rolling back inclusion. For us, that opens the opportunity to do this for so many other communities after.

MG: Clare, part of this is about the language that's being used. There are words like grooming that pop up that for people who have seen the sweep of history, I'm not ageing you, but as I say, somebody who…

CLARE NOBBS: Please do.

MG: No, but somebody who has been in this movement for a while, you will say that those words seem familiar. What do you make of the language that's being used?

CLARE NOBBS: It sets us back at least 30 years.

MG: What does it remind you of?

CLARE NOBBS: It reminds me of… Before our human rights were recognized, we fought in the courts, we fought on the streets, we fought legislation through legislation. And we know that that's on the backs of the black trans women who fought back in the 60s and 70s, throwing the rocks stonewall against police oppression. Those words grooming, children don't know yet. They don't understand. You're recruiting. Like I was raised by straight parents and I'm queer. They didn't recruit me. Both my kids are hopelessly heterosexual.

MG: Hopelessly heterosexual.

CLARE NOBBS: [laughing] They are 21 and 25 and they love me for who I am. They’re proud of our family and they will speak up too. Grooming, the grooming throws us back to when civil servants were arrested and thrown in jail in the 60s for being homosexual.

MG: The gay purge as they called it.

CLARE NOBBS: The gay purge. They were put in a chair and made to speak into a lie detector. Like it was a witch hunt.

MG: What do you think that that language is preying upon? What’s being scratched?

CLARE NOBBS: They're trying to say we're predators. They're trying to say that we're sexual predators. Like drag story time in schools is an attempt to sexualize our children and groom them into some kind of lifestyle. Well, lifestyle is like yeah, this is who I am just as being straight is not a lifestyle. It's an identity. It's an essence. I saw a meme recently that said, I'm not proud because I'm gay. I've been gay my whole life. I'm proud because I'm not afraid anymore, and I'm not afraid of people putting labels on me saying that I'm grooming young people to try and make them like me. My goal is not to make people like me. I'm just who I am. I'm not saying I'm better or worse, but I'm doing this. I'm speaking out because the young people I know who are gender diverse and who are queer and trans, they’re suffering and their anxiety is through the roof. They are attempting and they are completing suicide because their identities are not being respected.

MG: Joshua, given what you have been through, do you feel a responsibility to speak with and to other young people about what they might be experiencing?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: Maybe not directly. I do art workshops. I'm a painter and I get invited to regional schools to deliver art workshops, and I spend full days with many grades. Grade five to Eight is the main group I usually work with. And when I'm in their spaces, in particular the Superior North Catholic District School Board who I think is an example of, for lack of a better word, doing it right, when I go to their spaces, I'm immediately welcomed with a Pride flag. I immediately know I'm entering a safe space for me as a queer person. And when I go into their spaces, I'm amazed at the diversity of young people in those classrooms. When a young person is engaging someone who's older or in these kinds of workshops or mentor settings, just accepting who they are can go far away. So in a roundabout unconscious way, I think I do. But I try and go into these spaces or circles or if I'm given the opportunity to do so, is to just show other young people that hey, we exist and just keep doing what you're doing.

MG: How worried are you about speaking out, given the climate that we've all been talking about here?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: I'm not scared. I got a voice. I use it. I started my race Pride work with just me running around the reserve saying two spirit lives matter. And now, we're actually doing a flag raising ceremony. We're now over 100 people and we're freeing ourselves from that thinking.

MG: Fae, what are you most concerned about when it comes to this climate? Particularly, what people have looked at is a chilling impact on young people. What are you most concerned about?

FAE JOHNSTONE: You know, so as one of few trans people who has a platform in Canadian media and in the public eye, in the last few months, I have been called more slurs than I can count. I had my dead name released in videos by Fox News and other publications across North America. I recently had to have security guards on me for six days following my inclusion in a Hershey's Canada International Women's Day ad campaign because there were very real threats to my safety and threats to my life. And so I am terrified about the social environment that we're coming into. And I've been called groomer more times than I can count. And part of what scares me with all of this is that when they call us groomers or pedophiles, part of it is about encouraging us to feel shame and to hide. But the other part of it is about mobilizing people to engage in violence against us. You know, we have a hatred of pedophiles in this country that is very well deserved. But when they equate us to that, it creates a context where your everyday homophobe or transphobe is more likely to throw slurs at queer and trans people when we're walking to the grocery store. It creates a context where they're emboldened to engage in acts of violence just like we saw in the 60s, 70s and 80s. And so there is this chilling effect. There is this effort to push trans people in particular out of public life. And that will come at the cost of our champions. We need to be visible now more than ever as this hate escalates, as trans people have to flee certain states in the U.S. because they're no longer safe there. And so it is absolutely terrifying to watch this rise in hate. I'm still scared that our governments, that as straight folks and cis folks aren't taking this seriously, that they think it's going to go away, or that it's just us complaining about people expressing their opinions, but it is a well-oiled hate machine that will cost lives for trans and queer people, and especially will force trans kids back into the closet.

MG: Let me ask you, you raised this. What do you say to people you said who may not take this seriously, who might say, you know what, there have been huge gains. There's equality in marriage, that it's no, it can't be as bad as it was in the past, that there have been huge gains in not just tolerance, but acceptance and in making people feel that they can be their true selves. What would you say, Fae, to those who would raise that?

FAE JOHNSTONE: I'd say first and foremost, that we can't confuse legislative rights with genuine equality or equity. Trans and queer people are more likely to be poor, more likely to be homeless, more likely to be victims of hate. We had a 64% increase in police reported hate motivated violence against our communities from 2020 to 2021 alone. And so there is definitely a lot to be proud of in Canada. We have come so very far, but that progress is precarious. It is not a guarantee. And we cannot rest on our laurels as a country and imagine that our understanding of ourselves as an inclusive society prevents that hate from taking root here. And so it is not to do a disservice to our elders who got us to this place, but to recognize that the dream of a better world that they mobilized for is nowhere close to realized, and that we have so much more to do, especially with the target painted on our back right now.

MG: Clare, you were nodding.

CLARE NOBBS: Yeah. Well, because, and thank you, Fae. I love, you know, progress is precarious. Absolutely. Right now, even in Toronto with, I think, the most progressive school board in the country, if not North America, I am seeing this divisive action. I am seeing these tropes playing out because part of Pride events in schools, when the TDSB hoists the Pride flag in June and celebrates gender diverse and sexually diverse orientations and identities, we've got drag story time, which is this gentle, sweet opportunity for children to see an adult in a different gender expression and explore diversity of experience. But it's about story time. It's about human rights.

MG: So as Fae says, do those rights that you were part of that struggle for, do they feel precarious?

CLARE NOBBS: They absolutely feel precarious. And that's why I'm a little shaky. That's why I'm feeling anxious even though.

MG: Like you can hear it in your voice.

CLARE NOBBS: 100%. It strikes at the core of who we are and how hard we fought. In 1994, the NDP government were putting forward legislation that would extend equal rights and responsibilities to queer. And at that time, it was same sex families and it would be rights and responsibilities so we could adopt our own children and have survivor benefits and have health benefits for those of us with the privilege to have those. When we protested, we called out shame when that bill was actually turned down in the legislature. It was the first time the cops put on latex gloves to drag us out and down the stairs and out onto the grass outside Queens Park. And we thought, now it's time to really fight. And we protested and we won through the courts instead. And you think that you've made progress. You think that finally, your children are safe. You know, we've got in Toronto, two transitional houses now funded by the city of Toronto that support 2SLGBTQ youth in safe ways to embrace their identity and strengthen their skills so that they can become independent. But when something like this happens in our own school board, at our own front door, that takes away my rights. I see it happening.

MG: We started hearing a high school student in New Brunswick. Before we go, let me play one more thing from Evie. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

EVIE ROBINSON-DYCK: I wish people would celebrate what we've been dealing with more, celebrating the fact that even though we are getting pushed out, we're still here. And I want people to know that no matter what, you can be who you are, you know.

MG: So we're just about out of time. Pride is a number of things. It's a protest, but it's also a celebration. Fae, what are you celebrating this year?

FAE JOHNSTONE: I'm celebrating the fact that we have trans kids and queer kids who are able to be out in the classroom. I remember when I graduated high school in 2012, there were about three out gay kids in my year and that was it. There was no space for trans and gender diverse kids. And so we have carved out breathing room for a whole generation to learn about themselves and grow up with a little bit less of the shame and stigma too many of us are taught. And so that gives me joy even as this rising hate gives me worry.

MG: Joshua, for you, what's worth celebrating?

JOSHUA LECLAIR: Everything. I just want to acknowledge that young person's voice and leadership on Pride work and speaking up for what is right. There are young people in our high schools that are speaking up, and we need to listen to them because ultimately, they are our future leaders. I don't want to live my life in fear, so I always try and approach everything with love, kindness, and those are values from my people. We face insurmountable hate often. Love is more powerful, and I think that's what Pride is all about. It's about celebrating our own shine, our own light. And when we do so, we give others permission to do the same. But as hard as this moment in time may be, and I think it's because a result of our last three years locked up in our own homes, we got to remember love, love, love. And miigwech for letting me speak. And I'm so glad I was part of this discussion.

MG: Clare, we started with you, we’ll end with you. You said you were anxious and you were angry. What are you celebrating in this moment?

CLARE NOBBS: I'm celebrating community and I'm celebrating love. I'm celebrating the community that's been there for each other, whether it's through social media, on front porches, in the streets. I'm celebrating the communities that share concern and respond with letter writing to make changes that shouldn't even have to be on the radar because they should be enshrined in our human rights. I am celebrating identity, expression and beauty of community.

MG: I'm glad to have you all here. This is an important moment and an important conversation in this moment. Thank you very much.

JOSHUA LECLAIR: Miigwech, miigwech, miigwech.

CLARE NOBBS: Thank you.

FAE JOHNSTONE: Thank you and happy Pride.

CLARE NOBBS: Happy Pride.

JOSHUA LECLAIR: Happy Pride.

MG: Fae John Stone is president of Queer Momentum and Executive Director of Wisdom 2Action. Joshua Leclair is an Anishinaabe Pride advocate, and Clare Nobbs is a longtime LGBTQ activist. That's The Current for this Monday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. We’re going to leave you today with the music of Jackie Shane. Born in Nashville, Tennessee, made her career in Toronto becoming an integral part of the Toronto Sound of the 1960s, came out to her mother as trans when she was 13 and is considered a pioneer of the trans community. Here's Jackie Shane and Any Other Way. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Song: “Any Other Way” by Jackie Shane]

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Monday June 19, 2023 Episode Transcript

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