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The Current Transcript for April 14, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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DONNA MCBRIDE: This is such an empowering system change that allows Brodie to have one less thing to ask someone to help him with.

MATT GALLOWAY: Apologies to accountants, but I don't think many people get excited about doing their taxes. For the more than 10% of Canadians who don't file, though, many of them low income, that is often money left on the table. In 30 minutes, how a pilot program that would automatically file taxes for low income Canadians could help them get the refunds they're entitled to and need. Also this morning, Sheima Benembarek was growing up in a Muslim family in Morocco when there was not a lot of talk about sex and she figured her household wasn't alone.

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SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: And I was wondering if the Muslim people here in North America were dealing with the same thing because you will not go to jail for having sex outside of marriage. So did those restrictions kind of immigrate with the community or were they living in a better, more liberated and free way?

MG: Sheima’s new book, Halal Sex, features the stories of six Muslims pushing against cultural norms around sex, sexuality and autonomy. In an hour, the power in breaking free of other people's definitions of what it means to be a good Muslim. We begin, though, with our national affairs panel on foreign interference questions that will not go away for the prime minister. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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NATIONAL AFFAIRS PANEL

Guests: Catherine Cullen, Ryan Tumilty, Kelly Cryderman

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MICHAEL BARRETTE: Ms. Telford is volunteering to come before the committee. So hopefully, that puts other members’ minds at ease. It's important that we're able to get to the heart of this matter, find out what Ms. Telford knew, when she knew it.

MG: That's Conservative MP Michael Barrette. Later today, the Prime Minister's chief of staff, Katie Telford, will appear in front of the Commons committee looking at foreign interference in Canadian elections. This comes days after the board of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation resigned over what they say is the politicization of a donation that has been linked to the Chinese government. To discuss all of this, we have convened our national affairs panel. Catherine Cullen is the host of CBC Radio's The House. Kelly Cryderman is a political columnist for the Globe and Mail. She's based in Calgary. And Ryan Tumilty is a reporter for the National Post who covers Parliament Hill. Good morning, everyone.

ALL GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Catherine, let's start with you. The Liberals tried to prevent this from happening. What do you expect from Katie Telford's testimony on foreign election interference, specifically concerns around the Chinese government interfering in the last two elections in this country?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Matt, I think we're going to see two hours where there's going to be some tension. There's going to be some butting heads, a few moments of high political drama, I've asked you seven times, why won't you answer the question? What I do not expect to see is this whole wave of revelations that helps us better understand what has been going on in this country vis a vis foreign interference. Why is that? Well, because we have a bit of a precedent here. Several officials have testified before parliamentary committees about this issue. And what we have heard from this sort of national security sphere is time and time again, they don't want to comment on the leaks that have prompted so much of this sort of soul searching in Canada. They won't talk about it because it's leaked information. And they point to national security concerns, that essentially they just can't talk about some of these things. So it's true. Katie Telford represents a different point of view, right? A lot of people want to know what did the prime Minister and the prime minister's office know? When did they know it? What did they do about it? But I think she is essentially going to try to make as little news as possible on that front, lean on the fact that she cannot talk about some of these things. And if we get a little bit of a better understanding out of this, that would be great. But I think the expectations are low going into it.

MG: Kelly Cryderman, I mean, do you think the conservatives will be able to pry new information out of Katie Telford?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: No. They'll be able to have some clips that they'll be able to use of trying to pry information out of Katie Telford. I think Catherine's absolutely right that our expectations should be very low for the information that we're actually able to get out of today. And I think, you know, that leads to the question of where do Canadians get information about what happened? And I think if today comes to pass in a way that we think it will, that we don't learn much more about what the government knows, about how they view the threat to foreign interference, I think it will continue the cycle that we've seen for weeks where more stories come out and there is increasing pressure on the government to be more forthcoming and start some kind of process. And I think we have David Johnston tasked with looking at everything. And I think it really puts the onus on him doing something much more quickly than his deadline, which is near the end of May, and there being some kind of disclosure and more fulsome disclosure from this federal Liberal government about the threat of foreign interference, lest it lead to more questions from Canadians about what they need to be worried about in terms of our democratic institutions.

MG: Ryan, those stories right now concern foreign interference and questions about the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation. You've been reporting on this. Just very briefly, what does the foundation actually do?

RYAN TUMILTY: The foundation hands out doctoral scholarships. It hands out about somewhere between 12 and 15 of those a year. It lives off of the interest on a large government endowment that it was given when it was formed in 2002. It holds conferences and events. It is normally a very boring place. You know, it's humanities research. It's things that don't get a lot of attention. I think, you know, this controversy over the board donation is probably the first time it's been in the news in decades.

MG: The foundation is now planning an independent review of this controversial donation. What do we know about the donation?

RYAN TUMILTY: So we know that a Chinese billionaire, a gentleman named Zhang Bin, came to the foundation and the University of Montreal offering in total, a million in donations. We now know from reporting in the Globe that that money was not actually coming from him. He was promised that he would be reimbursed by the Chinese government. According to the Globe, CSIS is aware that this was an attempt at influencing the prime minister. And we know that when that information came to light in the Globe in February, that the foundation pledged to give that money back. The most recent reporting is now that it sounds like it was a challenge to give that money back because the person who gave the donation, his name wasn't on the check on issues like this. But that's sort of where it stands now.

MG: And so the head of the foundation and its board of directors have resigned saying this is over. The politicization of the non-profit organization La Presse says that one of the members of the board called the donation une bomb plant, a stink bomb. It sounds delightful, but I mean, what does it say to you, particularly the issue of politicization? What sort of message do you think those former members of the board and the former directors might be saying?

RYAN TUMILTY: You know, I mean, I think one thing to consider is that this is a volunteer board. So it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people on that board just decided this wasn't worth their time. It wasn't worth the frustration anymore. I think the fact that they are calling in an independent investigation, using an audit firm and a lawyer they've never worked with is probably a good step in helping to clear the air. But like charities all over the country, they took a charitable donation that it now looks like maybe they shouldn't have. But I think, you know, charities taking money that they are offered is a big part of what charities do. You know, we know universities across the country, for example, took money from one way that I think many of them now regret. But that is the nature of being a charity.

MG: Catherine, how do the liberals and how does Justin Trudeau distance himself from a foundation that bears his father's name? He has said he has nothing to do at this moment with this foundation, but the ties between it and the Liberal government, people keep pointing it in part because of, for example, the former governor general David Johnston, who has been charged by the government to help investigate the issue of foreign interference was a former member of the foundation. So how does Justin Trudeau go about separating himself from this and putting this to bed?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, part of the strategy is what you just pointed to, Matt. Obviously, every time the prime minister has been out speaking this week, he has repeated again and again, I am not involved in the foundation. I have not been for some time. I noticed he started saying it's been a decade. It's been a decade since I have been involved with this foundation. Part of the problem here, obviously, though, is it does not just bear his father's name, but of course, it is often being shortened too, notably by Pierre Poilievre, the Trudeau Foundation, right? I mean, it's pretty difficult to say or to get across the message that there is no connection when probably some people who haven't been following the story closely think it is even his foundation. So there's an obvious challenge there. Beyond that, the government has put itself in a bit of a pickle here because not only is David Johnston a member of the foundation, but a report that was recently issued looking into political interference in the last election, who was appointed to do that report? Oh, it was the person who was the CEO of the Trudeau Foundation at the time this donation was received. So I think unwittingly the government has put itself in a more difficult position because of those ties. So he just has to keep coming out over and over again and saying, you know, they are going to have to sort this out themselves. It is not something I am affiliated with.

MG: Kelly, last point on this and just briefly. I mean, there's the politics to this and plenty of politics, but there are real allegations of Chinese election interference, something that people believe is a threat to this nation's democracy. How do you go about addressing this in a non-partisan way? Is there a possibility of doing that, do you think?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: I think that's the real question here and how do you discuss a serious issue like this without it being a political bun fight? And I think, you know, we can look to other countries. For an example, Australia, which is further down the path of dealing with foreign interference and has taken steps like introducing tougher legislation on people who are doing lobbying for outside governments. And also having an intelligence leader who actually speaks to the public on these issues, who's not partisan, who gives updates on concerns about electoral interference. And I think that is what we have to do. We have to remove it from partisan politics in some way so we can have a grown up discussion about it.

MG: Bun fights reminds me of the food fight that we used to have in high school in the gymnasium. Let's talk about further bun fights. The federal Justice Minister, David Lametti, sparked a bit of a war of words between the Federal government and Western premiers last week when he was talking to the Assembly of First Nations chiefs about the Natural Resources Transfer Agreements, NRTA. Have a listen to the Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe speaking first, then the Prime Minister's response about this.

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SCOTT MOE: With respect to Minister Lametti in his comments, you know, two things come to mind for me. One is he actually doesn't understand that he can't change the NRTA or the federal government can’t change the NRTA unilaterally. That would be disappointing if a minister of justice doesn't understand that. Two, if he does understand that, then he's really being disingenuous with the Chiefs.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: What is incredibly important now, though, is that we all be having real conversations about reconciliation, about economic partnerships with indigenous communities, and that's what the Justice Minister and my government have committed to doing.

MG: Kelly Cryderman, just remind us briefly what the NRTA is.

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Yeah. This is of course an old set of acts from 1930 that’s important to the prairie provinces. Very important to the prairie provinces because of course, when Alberta and Saskatchewan became provinces in 1905, they did not have control of their natural resources. And 1930 Saw Act passed that gave the three prairie provinces control of their resources. So, you know, there were parties in the streets of Edmonton when this happened. It was seen in many ways as the point where the provinces became full partners or full provinces in Confederation having the same rights as other provinces. That's the significance of this and that's what we're talking about. Of course, the justice minister was speaking to First Nation leaders who are deeply unhappy about the way resource rights and then had no say in those Natural Resources Transfers Act, of course, in 1930 and are now asking questions about those acts. This actually came up with the Assembly of First Nations back in December, and we are seeing that it is a question that was posed to the Justice Minister about would you rescind these acts? And that was during a forum last week. And the justice minister gave an answer that is open to interpretation. He said he would bring it back to colleagues and committed to look at it. And he also noted that it will not be uncontroversial. So to me, that gives some idea that he understood the significance of what he was saying and understood it would be significant for those Western provinces who are angry about it now. And I think it's a really interesting question, something that I don't think was on people's radar at all until this month. But we do see the prairie premiers, of course, bringing up issues about provincial autonomy and provincial rights all the time. And it's easy for this to get lost. But I think it was important for the Prime Minister to be clear about what his government thinks on this matter because the AFN is asking for a legal opinion on this question.

MG: But also important for premiers in Alberta and Manitoba, which have elections on the horizon to keep this fire not just smouldering but raging, right?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Absolutely. This is a deeply political thing as well as being rooted in history. It is especially an issue in Alberta where we are facing a very competitive election on May 29th, where the NDP and the UCP are absolutely neck in neck in the polls. And the UCP believes if the issue for Alberta voters are the bones that Alberta voters have to pick with Ottawa and the resentment that they feel over a number of issues, they win. They don't believe that the Alberta NDP are articulating as strong a message on that. Yes, the election is about health care or education, that is more concerning to the UCP. If there continues to be little battles with the federal government, the UCP believe that helps them in the provincial election.

MG: Catherine Cullen, how sticky is this for the Prime Minister who has said the Government won't touch these agreements and that the resources are constitutionally directed to be the purview of the provinces? But it is also a Prime Minister who has said that reconciliation is priority number one and has those grand chiefs and other First Nations leaders saying this needs to be addressed.

CATHERINE CULLEN: I mean, he was pretty categorical about it when he came out yesterday and just said, listen, we're not going to touch it. What I think in some ways is the bigger issue here is how challenging this has been. Like it really does speak to the fact that there is just little to no goodwill between the leaders of the prairie provinces and the federal government. Federal officials came up time and time again over the course of this week and said, listen, you know, we're not about to change this. This is not going to happen. I was listening to an interview, though, that the Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe did on Tuesday, where he said the justice minister is either incompetent or deceitful based on what he's saying on this file. I think it speaks to how much those relationships have run aground. And it's not just obviously the political relationships, but it has to do with how people in those provinces feel about how the federal government has been handling issues around natural resources, bringing those resources to market and basically people's abilities to, you know, have the jobs that they might want or the kind of income that they might hope for.

MG: Ryan, let's spend the last few minutes talking about jobs. The Public Service Alliance of Canada, 150,000 plus public servants are in a strike position. Talks continue with Canada's largest federal region that represents public service workers. How important is it that the liberals get this deal done soon without a strike?

RYAN TUMILTY: You know, I think we'll get three days warning of a strike if the union decides to go that way. But if this goes ahead, it will be massive and it will be the largest public sector strike in three decades. You're talking about things like passports, which, you know, the public has finally seen turn around. You're talking about veterans’ benefits. You're talking about big pieces of government machinery.

MG: Tax returns, for example.

RYAN TUMILTY: Tax returns. Yes. You're talking about a lot of issues that won't work for Canadians. And I don't think the government, you know, while Pierre Poilievre is talking at great length about how Canada is broken, I don't think the government wants to give him another example. So I think there'll be real pressure to find a settlement.

MG: What about pressure on the unions to get a settlement with the liberals if I mean, we all say the election is it seems like always in the offing. But what is the pressure to get a deal done with this government in particular?

RYAN TUMILTY: Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, I think this government is likely to give them a better deal than a future conservative government. So I don't imagine this strike could drag on that long. I think there's pressure on both sides here. I don't think a bunch of federal civil servants really want to walk a picket line for an extended period of time. You know, they haven't done that in 30 years, and that's for a reason. But there's real economic pressure on the government as well. There's only so many dollars left in the budget. You know, we're already talking about 50 billion worth of new deficits over the next five years. So there's a real struggle there for both sides. But I think ultimately, somewhere, you know, there will be a resolution found.

MG: Catherine, part of this is about wages, obviously, but the other issue is about where people are working. And coming out of a pandemic or at least at this point of the pandemic, there are many public servants who are still working from home, and the government has said that has to change. How big of an issue is that going to be in resolving this impasse?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, it's sort of the issue hanging over all of this, right? Because fundamentally, it is at the employer's discretion where people work. And that is something that cabinet ministers repeat over and over again when you ask them about this. But it's no question that it's playing into how the union in particular and the employees who are maybe going on strike feel about all of this. You know, if they're going to go back into the office more days a week, do they need more money as they're also juggling the cost of living? I think it's a bit tricky politically for the government because they know that a lot of people who don't work in the civil service look at the fact that many civil service employees have been able to work from home much more often than not. Most are back in the office two to three days a week now, while a lot of people have been back in the office every day. So it puts pressure on all of this, even though it is not something that is supposed to be directly negotiated in these conversations.

MG: And yet, I mean, 150,000 plus public servants at a time when people are filing their taxes is a big headache not just for the government, but potentially for Canadians broadly.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Yeah. And that's part of what gives the unions some real power here, right, is that these things, certainly taxes front of mind for so many people, but things like processing immigration applications, services to veterans too. I mean, as Ryan said, the government just went through a really difficult time not so long ago when it came to passports. We can all remember those incredible line ups. And the government put a lot of energy into trying to say, listen, we've got that resolved. I remember the minister in charge coming out about a month ago and saying the problem is solved. Don't worry, folks, we're just making the system better and better. Now, they don't want to turn around and have to deal with that again, certainly.

MG: Great to talk to you all. Have a great weekend and thank you very much for this.

ALL GUESTS: Thank you.

MG: Catherine Cullen, host of The House on CBC Radio. Kelly Cryderman is a political columnist for The Globe and Mail. She's in Calgary. And Ryan Tumilty is a parliamentary reporter for The National Post. Your CBC News is on its way. And then, speaking of taxes, some big changes to how low income Canadians file taxes. Automated tax filing designed not just to make the process easier, but also put missed money back into people's pockets, money that they need. We'll tell you more about how that could work coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current. Stick around.

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AUTOMATIC TAX FILING

Guests: Rebekah Smylie, Jennifer Robson

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, a conversation with two Muslim women about navigating intimacy and sex through religious and cultural expectations. The cost of not having that talk about sex. That's coming up in just under 30 minutes. But first, making tax filing accessible for more Canadians.

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MG: It is income tax season. And with the deadline approaching on May the first and possible job action at the Canada Revenue Agency, getting taxes done is weighing on many Canadians. Donna McBride lives in Calgary. Her adult son, Brodie, has a disability, leaving Donna to take care of his taxes.

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DONNA MCBRIDE: In terms of the complexity of Brodie's taxes, it's very simple for sure, because he only has one source of income, which is the disability pension that he lives on. But it's still something that has to be done. It's one of those tasks that, you know, he's got benefits that are tied to his tax filing. His rent is tied to his income. It's not laborious, but it's very important that it gets done.

MG: The federal government's budget last month introduced an automatic tax filing system. This is a pilot project that could help low income Canadians get their taxes done and ensure that they get the benefits they are entitled to. Donna McBride thinks this is an important step forward.

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DONNA MCBRIDE: Well, my first thought was for Brodie that this is such an empowering system change that allows Brodie to have one less thing to ask someone to help him with. So I've been filing Brodie's taxes with him ever since he was 18. And people with disabilities to be able to live independently just have to ask for so much help to do that. And he can sort of just take care of his own taxes in partnership with the federal government. And so I'm just really happy that this is about to happen for Brodie and for me and for so many other people like us.

MG: Rebekah Smylie is the manager of financial empowerment at West Neighbourhood House. It's a non-profit in Toronto, and she is with me in studio. Good morning.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm very well, thanks. How familiar is that kind of scenario that you just heard from Donna McBride?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Very, very familiar. Yeah, very familiar. It is an ongoing issue, an ongoing challenge to be able to access tax filing for low income Canadians across the country. It's not an urban issue. It's not a rural issue. It's an issue that all Canadians across the country face.

MG: And so this pilot project which was announced in the budget would begin next year. How significant is this to you?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: The impact can be incredibly significant. We currently host a community volunteer income tax program, which means that there's often high wait times. It's a huge burden on our staff to be able to deliver it. The program is currently designed really to work with volunteers, and it's heavily, heavily reliant on us being able to find volunteers to turn out the volume of tax returns that we have to do. So to have a portion of that that is going to be done automatically can be transformational for some lower income Canadians.

MG: What are the barriers that lower income Canadians would face in terms of filing their taxes?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Yeah. So first of all, getting to a tax clinic can be a barrier. As an example, we had a woman come to one of our clinics just recently. And in order to come to see us to have her taxes filed, she first had to make sure that she had a support person available to come with her. And then she had to book med trans and then she had to make sure that her transit and her tax appointment lined up. And that's just to get in the door. That's just to come and see us, to sit with someone to have her taxes filed.

MG: That's before you even start to do the taxes.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: That’s before we even start to do the taxes. Right. So this assumes that everything has run on schedule, Everything has run on time, we can get her taxes done and get her out the door for her pick up time. And that's just one example. There's people who live with very severe disabilities who have challenges getting out of the house, who might not have strong communication skills. We run into a lot of language barriers as well with newcomers. Tax documents can be quite complicated if you're not familiar with what you're looking at, and it can be really difficult to understand what is required to be able to go and file your taxes.

MG: And so what sort of services would your team offer, West Neighbourhood Housing?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Yeah. So right now, we have our community financial workers and they offer two services. So during the month of March and April, we do our community volunteer income tax program where we're strictly focussed on current year's tax filings. And then throughout the rest of the year, we offer problem solving around all things to do with financial challenges. And we will actually in the rest of the year help individuals to file their income taxes for up to 10 years of back taxes. Taxes are still something that people find to be incredibly intimidating. If you're not familiar with the tax system, there's still some myths out there that the government wants your money or that you're going to have to owe a bunch of money. And so there's still a demographic that don't know that even if they don't have a high earning or even if they don't have any earning, there could be benefits that they would be entitled to. And so many people don't file because they're afraid or because they just don't know.

MG: What are some of the benefits that they might be entitled to, some of the things that they may not know and if they don't file their taxes, they wouldn't be able to get a hold of?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Yeah. So there's a huge number of benefits that are connected to tax filings. So one of the biggest ones is CCB. So your tax credit for children. That's a massive benefit. For a single person, for a child under six, that's potentially $583 per month that somebody might be missing out on if they don't do that. Also attached is your GST, any of your trillium benefits if you're here in Toronto, any provincial benefits that are attached to tax filings, there's some worker's benefits, there's all sorts of tax credits that are really affiliated. And the other thing that's really important to note is your notice of assessment, which is the document that you get when you complete your taxes is required for almost every subsidy, and it's required to be submitted annually for things like housing benefits and subsidies and for things like child care subsidies. So that notice of assessment is a really crucial piece of paper that allows you, it's kind of like the thing that opens the door that allows you even to apply for some of these additional subsidies that aren't automatic after you’ve filed your taxes.

MG: So in the work that you've done, I mean, everyone's case is individual and unique, but generally, how much money are people in some ways leaving on the table? What would this translate to in terms of the benefits that they might get back, if you can kind of generalize?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Yeah. So last year, we saw just over 2500 people and the money that was returned to them was $5.9 million.

MG: $5.9 million.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: $5.9 million.

MG: That's a lot of money.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: It's significant. It's very significant. And you can imagine somebody on ODSP, your monthly income is about $1200, give or take. Any additional funds that could come in as a result of filing your taxes are significant because we're not talking about money that can be used for vacations or fun stuff. This is money that people rely on to be able to survive. It's to have their basic needs.

MG: Like we talk about the cost of living crisis, the rental crisis, the housing crisis, the cost of food. That's the difference between making it and not making it in some ways.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Absolutely. It is. Absolutely. And we're not talking about balancing a budget to a surplus. We're talking about balancing a household budget to the penny. And so right now in particular, every single dollar that we can see go back into the pockets of the individuals that we work with matters, every single penny.

MG: Again, the details of this are still coming together. It's not going to launch until next year. It's a pilot project and there are a lot of buts. The other part of that is that it is something that's in the budget. What advice would you give to the government about how to make this thing work as well as it should?

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Yeah. So I think what needs to happen is we need to make sure that there's really good community consultation. And that needs to be with members of community organizations who work in the financial empowerment sphere, who are on the ground, who are doing tax clinics right now. And it also means consultation with low income Canadians as well. There was a pilot project that has been going for quite some time where you can file your taxes over the phone, an auto file. And what we're seeing is people are receiving letters from the CRA inviting them to be part of this program, but they have no idea what it means. So what we need to see is we need to see a lot of education around What do these changes mean? We need to see clear communication coming from the government. We need to make sure that this really is what it is, what it can be, that it reaches its potential. It can't be a program that gets released in the background where there's no education, where there's no training. And we also need to see the government step up with some funding. So the federal government has done a poor job of funding our income tax programs. And while the function of the income tax clinics might change, we're still going to have a demographic who needs to be walked through that change, who needs to be able to understand why filing their taxes this year is going to look different than the last 10 years. Taxes are so individual and there's different things people can claim. In the city of Toronto, you can't automatically claim your rent. Some properties are exempt from being able to claim your rent. So if you don't know that you're residing in a property where you can't claim your rent, how are you going to know to feed that back? And so you're right, there's still a lot of questions. And really, there just needs to be a lot of consultation with the individuals who this is going to impact the most.

MG: Rebekah, thank you very much.

REBEKAH SMYLIE: Thank you.

MG: Rebekah Smylie is manager of financial empowerment at West Neighbourhood House in Toronto. Jennifer Robson is a program director and associate professor of political management at Carleton University who has studied automatic tax filing for years. Jennifer, good morning to you.

JENNIFER ROBSON: Good morning.

MG: Do we know how many Canadians don't file their taxes?

JENNIFER ROBSON: So my colleague Saul Schwartz and I did a study on this several years ago now, and we're in the process of updating these numbers. But we found that amongst working age Canadians, it was about 12%, which is a lot of people. Now, when you look at youth, sort of the 16 to early twenties, even higher proportion, and then it diminishes over time. So seniors are more likely to file, but still about 5% of them that we found are not filing. So it's a lot of people in a given year.

MG: And so when you hear this, that Ottawa is implementing a pilot program starting next year for automatic tax filing, how significant is that to you?

JENNIFER ROBSON: Well, look, I'm cautiously optimistic. It could be really significant. I know we're using automatic tax filing as a bit of a shorthand, but I think what we're really talking about here is thinking about how do we set things up so that the tax agency is doing a lot more of the work for individual Canadians instead of having all of this administrative burden, you know, which we just heard about in terms of what Donna is doing for Brodie, the important work that is taking place at West Neighbourhood House, you know, the tax agency could be doing a lot more of this for Canadians.

MG: And so how would that actually work, as you understand it?

JENNIFER ROBSON: Yeah. So look, there's a couple of different things. Option number one, look south of the border at what the Internal Revenue Service in the United States is already doing. They actually have a free online service where if you don't want to have to pay for software or, you know, pay for a product to be able to file your return, you can do it directly with them on their website. They have that free product. Yes, there's that important role of the community volunteer income tax programs, but right now, they're really only reaching about 2% of all Canadians. Let's look in other jurisdictions. And actually the norm there is actually for the tax agency to fill out your return for you, send you a copy, give you an opportunity to take a look at it yourself. If there are changes you need to make, there's additional information you need to provide, there's that opportunity. But if you do nothing, that's okay. Your taxes have been filed.

MG: Rebekah talked about from her experience how much money people might be missing out on in terms of the benefits that they're owed. What is your sense of that? What is it that is not happening for people who could desperately need that money? As we were saying, it's not as a surplus, but simply to make ends meet to get to the end of the month.

JENNIFER ROBSON: Yeah. It can be really, really important. So a couple of years ago when Saul Schwartz and I again took a look at this, we estimated that there was a little less than $2 billion in unclaimed credits in the form of the GST credit, child benefit and the Canada workers benefit. Just those three, about $2 billion. That dollar value is probably bigger today because those credits have grown. On top of that, exactly as we just heard, there's all of the in-kind benefits and programs that make a real difference in terms of helping people make ends meet. So when the tax return is that critical key that unlocks your access to pharma care provincially or to subsidized housing, child care subsidies, I mean, this really does add up.

MG: This is a pilot project that has been proposed. And you said you're cautiously optimistic. What would remove the caution from your optimism?

JENNIFER ROBSON: So one thing that would remove the caution from my optimism would be to see, you know, sort of an outline of some of the preliminary thinking of what the Canada Revenue Agency is going to propose by way of their pilot, making sure that they are being as thoughtful but also creative and innovative in terms of thinking about… This isn’t going to be a pilot that… They’ve been clear in the budget this is going to be aiming to reach vulnerable Canadians, right? So let's begin with people that we already know how to reach, right? So let's be looking, for example, at people who are on social assistance that have fixed incomes. The government probably already has all the info that they need to be able to take care of that. So, you know, those are practical things. I'll be looking for that. And yes, the process here is going to matter. The budget says that they need to engage in a consultation. There has to be a real consultation exercise that is going to be talking to people with lived experience, but also, again, frontline people who are familiar with the tax situations of low income and vulnerable Canadians. With all due respect to the important industry of tax experts, you know, they don't really gear their products and services to this target population. So we need to be thinking about reaching other stakeholder groups that maybe the tax agency isn't used to thinking about and talking to.

MG: I mean, pilot projects by their very nature is a test program. So you're confident that that's something that this could be scaled up.

JENNIFER ROBSON: So again, you know, that should be the aim of any pilot project. It should be a proof of possibility. Here's the proof of concept. We've been able to do it with this population, let's see where we can scale up. Right now, the tax by the tax agency's own estimates, two thirds of all of the income tax returns that they receive are simple returns, right? They don't have fancy capital gains to claim, they don't have foreign income, right? These are simple returns. So let's begin where we can with the most vulnerable and then think about how do we gradually start bringing more and more people into a system where the administrative burden isn't falling on them?

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have, I mean, and again, this is with great respect to accountants and to our friends in the Canada Revenue Agency, a lot of people's eyes glaze over when you talk about filing taxes. This is not a big, sexy new program. And yet, as we've heard, it's incredibly important and has important potential. Why does it matter to you so much?

JENNIFER ROBSON: You're so right. It is so not sexy. I have picked the list sexy thing to study.

MG: But it's important.

JENNIFER ROBSON: It's so important, right? Look, our social programs in this country have evolved over time to really turn to the tax system as the way to create access. And for me, this is a really important issue of fairness, right? We don't expect people to pay to be able to get basic services in other forms. Like it would be crazy if we said, guess what, we're going to run our welfare systems, our social assistance system such that you got to pay an expert to help you fill out the form before we'll pay you this residual benefit. We would say that's nuts, right? And yet, we design big other parts of our overall way of providing support either in income transfers or in-kind services with this gatekeeping function, right? And so for me, it's a fundamental issue around fairness and equity and ensuring that these programs are actually reaching the people that they're meant to serve and reaching the policy goals that governments say they have for them.

MG: Jennifer, thank you very much for this.

JENNIFER ROBSON: Thank you.

MG: Jennifer Robson is a program director and associate professor of political management at Carleton University in Ottawa.

DAY-CARE MAIL

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. Earlier this week, we were talking about the rollout of $10 a day child care and the difficulties Canadians are having across this country in finding child care. This is an issue that many Canadians could relate to. Many of you wrote us with your stories on how difficult it is to actually get one of those spots. The Current’s senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your mail. Karin, hello.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. So this first letter is from Pamela Haley in Margaree, Nova Scotia. She has a three-year-old and she writes, “I currently have someone I am lucky enough to have coming into my home, but have to allow other children in as well so I can afford it. This is taking a toll on my home and I still only have care two days a week and I work five. Our caregiver will be ending this arrangement in June. Sometimes, my son has to go to two or three different people a week to make it work. My poor parents are almost 70 and my mother has to work as a babysitter in her retirement or I have to take time off from my career to look after my son. I would drive or overpay, but there is nowhere to go. My friends are all struggling. It's been a nightmare. People are choosing not to have children here due to childcare issues, which is heartbreaking.”

MG: Justin Finn is also fed up with searching for care. Justin sent us a message from Revelstoke, British Columbia.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN FINN: I mean, it's the exact same situation in B.C. I just had a kid a few years ago and just sort of thought blindly, oh yeah, when I have a kid, then society will be there to help you out with a place to, you know, look after your kids so you can still be a functional member of society. But I was, you know, just even further dismayed to learn that just the government doesn't seem to give a bleep about children, you know, or about having people stay in the workforce, which in today's economic environment, it's impossible to live basically without two incomes. So not only does your entire life change because you have a new child, your entire economic situation has changed because you don't have any support. Oh, and you were using two incomes to barely get by in B.C., oh, now you only have one income. And it's just unbelievable. The Canadian society is broken. It's just completely broken. Every single child needs to have a spot.

KARIN MARLEY: So Justin was not alone in feeling frustrated. Here is another listener.

SOUNDCLIP

DARYL: Hi. My name is Darryl calling in from Kimberley, B.C. This is a major issue where we live as well. Last night, more families in spots available camped outside a local school for pre-school positions for their children. When we heard that families were lining up at 9 p.m. yesterday, we realized that we were not going to get our son in for care this year. It's an extremely disappointing situation and I'm very glad that one of your guests mentioned that this is a situation of sexism and under appreciation of women in the workforce and the role that caregivers provide. Something needs to be done about this publicly, and I hope that all of the parents out there, families that are affected by this, moms and dads alike will soon get the support they need.

MG: Kisa MacIsaac is one of those caregivers. She's been an early childhood educator in Winnipeg for more than 20 years and Kisa writes, “Any opening of new spaces without stable, consistent and better than minimum level of staffing is simply warehousing our most vulnerable citizens so the economy can run. And this is simply harmful. Early childhood education must be well-supported for it to really thrive and become what it needs to be for every family who needs it. Access to quality child care can be life changing for families, but it must be great. The level of disrespect, low pay, high workload and level of responsibility has led to a big problem here. We have some work to do to turn things around.”

KARIN MARLEY: So Kisa isn't the only child care worker who has felt that the system is not working.

SOUNDCLIP

RANDI GURHOLT-SEARY: Good morning. This is Randi Gurholt-Seary from the beautiful Sunshine Coast in Pender Harbour. You know, we know that the childcare crisis as we're experiencing in Canada is nothing new to women. We've been ringing that alarm bell for decades. As an example, I've worked in the sector for over 35 years and have lived and experience the frustrations of this crazy, broken patchwork of a system we call child care for many, many years. We've had challenges recruiting and retaining workers in the sector across this country. When Quebec brought forward its $5 a day plan, the rest of us all rejoiced. Yes, it had problems. Yes, it started without a full workforce, but they did it. In British Columbia, we worked hard to get the $10 a day plan before it became a federal plan mainly because of our strong advocacy group. Nonetheless, we find ourselves still struggling mainly because of a workforce that dwindled and wasn't addressed. Canadian politicians, they know how to build a workforce. We did it during the war. It requires strategy, financing, strong remuneration for their workers and education.

MG: It's one of those issues that really does strike Canadians across this country in many ways no matter where you live. Thank you, Karin Marley.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here at The Current. Thanks to everybody who sent emails and voice messages to us. If you want to share your thoughts on anything that you hear on this program, do get in touch. You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. But we're radio. We love to hear your voice. And so on your phone should be an app where you can record a voice memo. Just record that voice memo and then email it to us and perhaps you'll hear yourself on the radio. You can email it again to thecurrent@cbc.ca. Well, coming up after your Regional update, a conversation with the writer Sheima Benembarek. She has always been curious to know if other Muslim women deal with the same balancing act that she does having an open, active sex life while navigating the religious and cultural expectations of their families. Her new book tells the story of her own experience, but also the experience of others. It is a look at what she calls halal sex. What happens when people don't talk in their families about sex? And what are the expectations that people have of people like her about what it means to be a good Muslim? Sheima Benembarek is here in 90 seconds to talk more about that. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC listen app. Stay with us.

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HALAL SEX

Guests: Sheima Benembarek, Eman El-Husseini

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Growing up in Morocco, the journalist and writer Sheima Benembarek did not learn all that much about sex. There were quiet conversations behind closed doors about why it was important to preserve your virtue until you got married to a man, but there certainly wasn't much discussion about birth control or pleasure. Over the years, Sheima has found that her experience is not unique among Muslim women living in North America. Her new book is an attempt to bring that hushed conversation about sex and sexuality into the open. The book is called “Halal Sex: The Intimate Lives of Muslim Women in North America”. Sheima is with me in studio. Good morning.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Hi.

MG: Thanks for being here.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Thank you for having me.

MG: Tell me about the title of this book, Halal Sex. What does that mean?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: So in Islam, it's an expression that refers to sex being halal only when it's between a married woman and man. Everything else is destined to hellfire, which was kind of mind blowing to me and unacceptable on many levels. So I decided to use that term as the title of the book in a way to subvert the restrictive notion.

MG: Why did you want to write this book? I mean, that speaks to this project in and of itself. Why did you want to write this book now?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Because when I was growing up, there was no such thing for me. And my mom taught me. She's a wonderful religious, faithful woman who taught me not to kill, not to steal, to be a good person, but also as a woman, that my virtue/hymen is one of my biggest occurrences in life as a woman, and that the only person that should have it or should have access to it is my future husband. And I sort of say in the book that forget that I've never been married and I'm almost 40. So that's kind of why I wrote the book, because growing up and trying to figure out my sexuality, trying to figure out what it means to be a Muslim woman in the world that has sexual desires and crushes and feelings, but also lives… I went to an American school, so I was already living with Americans and international students and that type of thing. But then also coming to Canada, I realized that I could very much fall in love with a white Canadian Christian or Jewish boy or whatever it is and that that was completely frowned upon. And there was no texts that like helped guide that struggle to figure out whether it was okay when it felt okay but everybody in my life was telling me it wasn't okay. And then I started dating this boy and got pregnant in university. And I didn't want to have a baby because I wanted to be a writer and had an abortion. So fast forward a few years after that. My mom is visiting me in Montreal, Sainte-Catherine Street, and then I tell her about it and she stops and looks at me and like has this like terrified look on her face and she goes, you killed a soul. And I didn't know what to say because I didn't agree. But I also understood that she was really concerned for my soul or like what would happen to me in the afterlife. And I was curious to see was this a problem just because I grew up in a Muslim majority country where the sexual ethics are very much tied with the law over there? Like you can go to jail for having an abortion, you can go to jail for having sex outside of marriage. And I was wondering, did those restrictions kind of immigrate with the community or were the Muslim people here in North America living in a better, more liberated and free way?

MG: What was the resolution? I want to talk about the book, but what was the resolution to that moment with your mother?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: We just continued walking. This was like in 2007 or something. So she's grown wiser and more involved in like women's rights. And her and I have had many conversations. She's also changed. I've changed. You know, parents can also change.

MG: But you understood where she was coming from.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Completely.

MG: Yeah.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: And that's what happens to a lot of the parents, especially in these stories. It's not because they hate their kids. It's the contrary. It's because they love their kids. They're concerned for their kids. They're worried about their kids because they don't want them to suffer the consequences or the seeming consequences of these laws.

MG: There's a lot of your story in this book, but this is also a collection of stories of six different individuals.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Mm hmm.

MG: You said you were curious about what people were or weren't talking about, the conversations that maybe they weren't having. You put out a call for people’s stories. What kind of response did you get back?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: It's funny now to think about it because I was worried that maybe I was the only one that was like or one of the few that was like consumed with like rage about these kind of things. And I was like sort of flooded with responses and just like tons of people wanted to talk. Not all wanted their experience documented. Of course, there were like very many that were straight up about that. Like I would like to tell you all about my experience. I feel very alone and I want to share it with you, but there's no way you can use it.

MG: What does it tell you that people saw you as a way to share their own experiences? What does that tell you about the impact, the weight of those conversations that weren't being held?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: It basically told me and reaffirmed what I was already thinking. And it's that we don't talk about this enough within our own community. Like of course, you can go find books written by Janet Smith or whatever and, you know, understand those kind of issues.

MG: Janet Smith being?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I'm just inventing a name.

MG: Somebody who doesn’t exist at the moment talking about sex.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Yes. Yes. There's like a lot of like sexual books out there for sure. Just not enough from within the community or about the community or for the community of Muslim women. So it told me that there was a need for some sort of like avenue or platform to have these conversations and that there were people who were suffering and that just the act of talking about their experience was going to afford them a sort of solace or like moment of liberation, I think.

MG: Suffering is a very, you use that word very deliberately. What do you mean by that?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I mean people who are, let's say, in a same sex relationship and hiding it from their families and wanting to live their lives openly, but not able to because they know that they're going to be either shunned from the community, disowned by their parents, or yeah, I mean, those two are quite bad.

MG: Yeah. I want to bring one of the people whose story is featured in this book into this discussion. Eman El-Husseini is a Palestinian-Canadian Stand-Up comedian based in New York City and that is where we have reached her. Eman, good morning to you.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Hi. Good morning. Eman El-Husseini here, a.k.a Chapter Four.

MG: A.k.a Chapter Four, when you heard about this project, this idea, why did you put your hand up and say, yeah, I have something to say, but also I want to get involved in this and attach my name?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Like Sheima, I also was enraged by the injustice that envelops sexuality in the Muslim world and how from a very young age, I noticed that being a boy meant freedom and he could do whatever he wants. And being a girl, you're like limited and you have to be protected. And it drove me nuts. It really drove me crazy how like blatantly unfair the situation was. So when she shared her feelings about this, I was like, I'm with you 100%.

MG: I mean, this is not unusual for you because you've talked about this in your comedy as well.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Yes, absolutely. I mean, this is the thing. Being openly gay, being Muslim, Palestinian, I'm like struggling with both sides. Like I'm struggling to not fit the stereotype for Western people, but I'm also not fitting the stereotype for my own people. It is rewarding work in a way, but I also get a lot of flak for it.

MG: Tell me about the flak. I mean, when you're on stage and this is part of who you are and what you're presenting on stage, what's the response been?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: It really, really depends. Usually, people embrace it, but a lot of the people that embrace it embrace it secretly. So I always say I'm not a celebrity yet because whoever likes my work is a closeted Muslim. So my DMs are popping, but like nobody's showing up to shows or like telling me that they're into the shows until well afterwards.

MG: You saw her perform.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I did.

MG: What was your reaction?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I was amazed. I went to one of her gigs in Toronto, I don’t know, about five years ago, and I was blown away by how cool and open and confident a Muslim woman could be about her sexuality and her life and be hilarious. Like we never laugh about these kind of topics usually.

MG: And you'd never seen anything like that before?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: No, I hadn't. And I was like she is badass.

MG: Eman, where did the roadmap for badassery, if that's a word, where was that for you? How did you figure out that you could do this?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: I think I'm very lucky. A lot of Muslims do not have parents that are as liberal. I'm saying that my parents are liberal. It's not like they're okay with my lifestyle. I had to come out to them as a comedian first and then, you know, as gay later. And it's not easy, but I was like so… My father couldn't, he couldn't force me to do anything. He threw his hands up in the air. And I'm so lucky that I had that instead of having somebody like Sheima mentioned who could have shunned me, who could have disowned me, who could have killed me.

MG: I mean, those are really serious consequences, obviously. Did you worry about that?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: I didn't really. I wasn't afraid. I don't know what to say. I just feel like I always unite all groups of people to hate me equally. This is the joke that I say, you know? Anybody who's like religious or anybody who's sexist or anybody who's conservative, I'm just like a complete nightmare for them because I live like the complete opposite of what they all expect or want from me.

MG: You talk in the book about realizing, I think pretty early on, that there were contradictions between what you understood Islam to be about and how you saw that play out in real life. Can you tell me a little bit about that, particularly when it comes to the issue of sex?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Oh my God! So growing up, my parents introduced Islam to me as if it was like this hippy-dippy religion. Like we loved everybody. Everybody's equal. Men and women are equal. All nationalities are equal. All people are equal. So then the first hypocrisy I noticed was the double standard between males and females and it really, really upset me. And then, like I said, I was able to convince my father to like let me be because he's somebody who's so proud of being Muslim. He loves the religion. He's not even religious, but he loves that. But when I called him out about being like you say that you're Muslim and unconditionally so, but you don't pray five times a day, you know, like just pointing out these things that supposedly make you a good Muslim and he wasn't doing that. And then you had my mom who was religious. And whenever I posed the question of like it's so unfair that a guy could do whatever he wants and a woman can't, and she was like, oh, you're right, it is unfair. So I got validation from them. And of course, being in a school in Quebec, you know, going to the sugar shack, having pork and then sex ed and coming home with condoms also.

MG: That's a lot.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: It's a lot for them. But, you know, they were okay with it. They never like told me not to go to that school. Like they understood that I'm right, ultimately, but they just wanted to protect me. They were afraid. It's like what Sheima says. They want to protect. They think that they're doing this to protect you.

MG: Talk about going to school in Montreal. This comes up in your piece as well, in which you speak about the teenage boys that you went to school with, but also the girls that were in the class as well.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: You know, I was completely shocked to see that a lot of the Muslim girls in my class thought the way that I did. And a lot of them as the years went by kind of like devolved into a regressive person. Like they had the same questions I had because you couldn't believe coming to Canada you could talk about sex openly. You know, it was the time of Salt-N-Pepa singing Let's Talk about sex, baby. It was like all over the place. So we all had a similar curiosity about it and couldn't believe that we had to wait until marriage while guys were able to do, again, whatever they want, whenever they want.

MG: What did those boys teach you, I mean, in the way that you describe that, about what you could do and who you could be?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Well, the Arab boys, if they had sisters, I mean, their sisters were not allowed to talk to another boy or it's like the honour of the family is completely ruined and her brother has to like stand in and like save the honour of the family. It was just so ridiculous that they felt like it was so important for them to protect the honour of the women in their family while trying to pursue other women so they could lose their virginity. It's just extremely hypocritical.

MG: Were you surprised in how she told the story and how open she was? I mean, seeing her comedy, that's one thing, but that she'd be willing to share something like that in a book that is going to go out into the whole universe.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I offered her to use a pseudonym and make up a name and all of that, And Eman was like, no, I'm fighting for the very same thing you are. Use my name. Absolutely. But there's also the fact that every single chapter was reviewed by every single participant. So they all got the opportunity to say this is actually too revealing or This is too much. This will cost me my livelihood or my safety or whatever it is. And I zoomed out whenever that was the case. You know, like I don't specify where anybody's living or all their names are changed. Like there's no names of like specific schools or like jobs or things like that. I think that allowed a lot of them, including Eman, to have like agency over their story and just put it out there in collaboration with me in a way that was comfortable for them.

MG: She also has agency over her identity and her life in some ways. And I mean, again, there's the line in the book about how she divorced herself in some ways from the idea that she had to be a Muslim according to the way that other people wanted her to live. That's a really powerful thing. What strikes you about that?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I loved that part where she talks about the Muslim patriarchy sort of co-opted the faith. You know, she and all of them had the option to just be like, forget it, I'm not Muslim anymore. This is too difficult. Like nobody's forcing you to be in this faith, especially not in North America. And they didn't. And she didn't. And specifically, Eman was like, no one is going to tell me I'm not Muslim. No one is going to force me out of my faith, which I loved. I love that kind of like strength and that's absolutely the truth. Like we kind of grew up with this binary idea of like the good Muslim and the bad Muslim. There’s no such thing as a bad Muslim. There’s a good Muslim and there's no Muslim.

MG: It’s either yes or no.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Yeah. Exactly. And so she kind of embodies that idea of like no, there is 101 different ways to be a Muslim and still call yourself that and still belong to the faith and live a life that is honourable to you, that is true to who you are at the core. For example, Teslim, one of the other women in the chapter in the book who is a virgin at like 43 and she was in a relationship for five years with this white guy who loved her and she loved him. And like it was so ingrained in her, this fear that she would lose her family, lose her Pakistani parents and just her standing in the community if she were to lose her virginity outside of marriage and also marry someone that isn't Muslim. We live in this multicultural country and yet, we're putting these like limitations on our young people that are completely nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense. You may not force them as in like physical force or whatever, right? But a parent's love and a parent's acceptance and a parent's kindness and compassion is huge. It’s huge generally.

MG: It's everything.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

MG: Eman, where did for you that idea that no one's going to tell you how to be a Muslim, no one's going to tell you not to be a Muslim, where did that come from for you?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Again, I was very familiar with the religion. I read a lot on my own. I was religious for a certain period of time. Even when my family wasn’t, I really like jumped in and researched the whole thing because I was really proud of being Muslim just like my father, just the way he taught it to us. And one of the main things he taught us or the religion taught us is that your relationship with God is private. It's between you and God. Anybody who assumes that you're going to go to hell for whatever reason is actually sinning by judging you, by telling you that you're going to go to hell. Like that's what I get a lot too in my DMs. Like you're going to hell FYI. Good for you for being gay, but you're going to hell FYI, as if it's like they got the memo from God, you know. So it's so nuts that they feel like they're doing something or they're like some kind of religious authority when Islam is so specific about not having religious authority. It's like you have somebody who could help you understand some stuff. Religious figures could help you decipher some things that you don't understand about the religion, but nobody could tell you what to do. Your relationship is so individual. In my opinion, I'm the one who's doing it right, to be honest.

MG: What do you see as the opportunity that a book like this presents? I mean, when these stories are told publicly about things that perhaps people have not been comfortable in speaking about before, what could that do?

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: I do have faith that the next generation is going to be a lot less judgemental or religious or hypocritical. And of course, having stories like that are so important because like Sheima said, she's never heard any stories about anything. Nobody ever talks about it. So she's like giving us a tool or a form of knowledge about how this is completely normal. Like we shouldn't feel like freak shows because of desires that we feel or the temptations that we, you know, have the right to embrace. Islam is one of the very few religions that embraces sex for pleasure. We're not like, you know, Catholics and religious Jews where you have to have sex just to procreate. You should enjoy sex.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Pleasuring your partner is a duty.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Exactly. Both ways. But again, you never hear about that. You just hear about the guy and the pleasures of the guy and the demands of the guy.

MG: Is that changing? I mean, at the end of the book, you say that women are fighting back. And you talk about how sexual liberation has been controlled by fathers, brothers and imams. In 2023, is the conversation different than it was when you weren't having those conversations, do you think?

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I think absolutely. I think things are changing for sure. And I also have hope for the next generations and not just of young people, but also like I have hope and faith that the parents are changing and that they're growing. And there's been a growing community of Muslim women, feminist scholars and academics who are, you know, for example, Amina Wadud and Azmat Merabet and I mean, Irshad Manji was a reformist and she's still very popular, who are saying that you know what, the laws are based, the laws in Muslim majority countries that kind of have like this, that we live under their echoes in North America came about through the lens of ninth century Muslim men and their biases and their perspectives and cultural and political and historical implications and contexts and all of that stuff. And so taking a look at the Holy Scriptures or the Koran in a way that is feminist or reformist allows for different understandings of it. You know, like for example, and before I say this, if you want to wear the hijab, wear the hijab. If you want to stay virgin until marriage, stay virgin until marriage. I'm promoting like just self-determination and agency. And so in the Koran, it doesn't say anything about the hijab. It doesn't say anything about the niqab or the burqa or anything like that. It says dress modestly. You can interpret that in many different ways. I feel like I'm dressed modestly right now and my hair's not covered. And then there's also the idea of Zina, which is defined as extramarital sex, premarital sex, adultery. It's like all these things into one word. And that doesn't make sense either because adultery and sex before marriage are two very different things.

MG: Completely different.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Completely different things and have completely different implications. And there is scholars that say that actually, in fact, it's not what it is, that those verses are punishing or like restricting public indecency. And why public indecency? Because you have to have about four witnesses to this act before you can actually be, quote unquote, judged in your community. So it's about public indecency, not private consensual sex. If you're having private consensual sex in your apartment, either those four people are like in it with you, or what are they doing in that?

MG: Peeping Tom.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: What are they doing in that apartment? Exactly. So there's like different interpretations that can be applied. And I'm just excited to like continue that conversation and opening it and seeing how we as women can help promote and encourage the faith into modernity and feminism.

MG: Just before I let you go, you also say in the book that reporting on your own community is extremely stressful. I just wonder now that the book is out there, what sort of response you've had.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: I've gotten mostly positive responses that are kind of like overwhelming sometimes where, you know, we had the launch in Toronto and in Montreal and, you know, they come up to me and hug me and say, you know, I've been waiting for a book like this or thank you for writing this.

MG: That's really powerful that people have been waiting for something like this.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: It is, especially when I don't think like enough writers talk about what it costs to write a book, what it costs a writer to spend five years working on something. You know, it can cost you your relationships, your friends, your other job opportunities and all of the stuff. It's like a huge commitment and you have to care about it. I think it feels good to have that mirrored back and told thank you for doing this, thank you for being depressed for whatever amount of time and struggling to put this out. It means something to me and it means something to us and that's everything.

MG: Eman, thank you for being part of this conversation. It's a real pleasure to talk to you and it's important as well. So thank you very much.

EMAN EL-HUSSEINI: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

MG: And Sheima, thank you very much.

SHEIMA BENEMBAREK: Thank you.

MG: Sheima Benembarek’s new book is called “Halal Sex: The Intimate Lives of Muslim Women in North America”. Eman El-Husseini is a Stand-Up comedian and part of the comedy duo the El-Salomons with her wife Jess. That is The Current for this Friday and for this week. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. One last thing before we go. We would be remiss not to mention one particular creature that has had a moment this week, and that creature is the rat. In Vancouver, you might have seen this. It's ghastly. A video of dozens of rats scurrying in an alley has gone viral. This after B.C. recently banned certain rat poisons. And then, of course, in Ottawa, there's 24 Sussex.

SOUNDCLIP

MALE SPEAKER: The Americans have the White House, we have the rat house.

MG: The rat house. New documents have revealed the official residence of the prime minister is filled with excrement and carcasses between the walls and in the attic and the basement. More bad news for the empty and unliveable building. And then in New York City, the rodent problem is so bad the city has appointed its first rat czar.

SOUNDCLIP

KATHLEEN CORRADI: Bloodthirsty is not a word you usually see in a job description. And it's certainly not a word I usually describe myself. But I have to say the rat czar ad got my attention.

MG: It kind of writes itself, doesn't it? That's New York City's rat czar Kathleen Corradi. She is dead set on getting her city's vermin dead. In the spirit of rats and what we're supposed to do with them, we will leave you with perhaps some words of wisdom for the people under siege or perhaps for the rats themselves. We'll let you decide. I feel a bit itchy talking about this, but maybe that's just me. Here's the leader of the Rat Pack himself, Frank Sinatra and That's Life. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend. We'll see you on Monday.

[Song: “That’s Life” by Frank Sinatra]

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Friday April 14, 2023 Episode Transcript

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