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Front Burner Transcript for February 23, 2023

Host: Jayme Poisson

JODIE MARTINSON: Hi, I'm Jodie Martinson, in for Jayme Poisson.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES BURTON: Well, I mean, if there are no consequences for the agents of the Chinese state, it will embolden them to do much more of it, obviously, you know, because they're able to really get away with it.

JODIE MARTINSON: That's former Canadian diplomat to China, Charles Burton. He's reacting to an explosive story from the Globe and Mail that broke late last week.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: It cited top secret seizes documents detailing Beijing's sophisticated strategy to influence the 2021 election.

JODIE MARTINSON: On Tuesday, a parliamentary committee that was already studying allegations of foreign meddling in the 2019 election decided to widen its scope. Elections Canada, the RCMP, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS. And Liberal cabinet ministers were all summoned to testify to answer questions about these allegations and what the government and national security agencies are doing to protect democracy in Canada. To go through all this, I'm joined now by Catherine Cullen. She's the host of CBC's political podcast The House and a senior reporter in our parliamentary bureau. Hi Catherine, it's so good to talk to you.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Hi, Jodie. Thanks for having me on.

JODIE MARTINSON: Okay, let's start with the big headline here. So what exactly was revealed late last week?

CATHERINE CULLEN: According to these documents obtained by the Globe and Mail, it's not just that Chinese officials were trying to influence Canada's elections, but that they had a preferred outcome and were learning more about specific tactics that they might have employed to try to do this. In one case, according to the Globe report, a Chinese diplomat in Vancouver actually bragged about taking down a couple of conservative candidates. Now, there are plenty of questions to be asked about just how accurate that bragging was. And I'm sure we're going to get into that in a minute. But the idea that there was an attempt to interfere with the actual election outcome, I mean, we have to say that is a big deal, right? This is a key question about state sovereignty and another state trying to get in and meddle with who is in government, the balance of power in a country. It's a very serious allegation.

JODIE MARTINSON: And you talked about a preference that China had for the outcome. What was the ultimate goal from China?

CATHERINE CULLEN: According to these secret and top secret documents that the Globe and Mail has viewed? They say that the Chinese officials wanted to see not just a liberal government but a liberal minority government. This is really interesting. The idea is that in a minority government and as somebody who covers Parliament Hill, I can tell you there's some truth to this. There's a lot more squabbling, right? It's not as easy to get things done. You don't have all the power. You can't just say we want X, Y or Z. So according to these reports, Beijing felt that a minority government would lead to more infighting. It would be harder for a Canadian government to pass measures that were in any way made life more difficult, essentially for China. They wanted to see that kind of squabbling. They felt that of all the parties, the Liberals were, if not the most friendly, at least the least unfriendly to China. And, you know, there are a whole host of issues, right, that Canada and other democracies around the world are looking at when it comes to China. Everything from China's treatment of its weaker population, which some critics, some parliaments around the world, including Canada's, have said is essentially a genocide that is going on right now.

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REPORTER: Canada's lower house of parliament has voted in favor of labeling China's treatment of weak Muslims as genocide. Monday's vote passed 266 to 0, although Trudeau and his Cabinet abstained.

CATHERINE CULLEN: You talk about what is happening in Taiwan, what is happening in Hong Kong, and aggressive moves that China is taking and might continue to take in order to sort of get its hands more around those particular locations. All of that is stuff that China would like Canada to essentially butt out of and keep quiet about. The suggestion is if we're squabbling amongst ourselves, there'll be less of that.

JODIE MARTINSON: And it's so interesting to hear that because I don't really think of Trudeau's time as prime minister is a particularly cozy time for relations with China. So what is the logic for allegedly tipping the scales for the liberals versus the conservatives in this case?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Yeah, I think there's two parts here. So let's start focusing on the liberal part. First, let's like hop in our DeLorean and get in the time machine Jodie. Think back to the early days of Justin Trudeau as Liberal leader. He did actually try to pursue a free trade agreement with China. You might remember that he went over to China to hold meetings. The idea was that what was going to come out of this was at least the beginning. Building blocks of a free trade agreement with China.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Moving forward on a trade agreement with China is a big thing, not a small thing. Canadians understand how important it is to get it right, and we are ensuring that in the progress we made today in discussions, we're going to be able to continue to keep moving forward in a in a responsible way.

CATHERINE CULLEN: When I was doing some research for this, one thing that really kind of blew my mind. It speaks to how much our relationship with China has changed. In 2018, it was actually the year of Canada-China tourism, a whole year devoted to the exchange of peoples between the two countries.

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REPORTER: (speaking french) For the Government of Canada. We are very much looking forward to all of the good things coming in 2018 during the Canada-China year of tourism.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Of course, we know a lot has changed since then. The thing I think that most Canadians will think of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, that's something that really, you know, set that relationship going in the wrong direction.

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REPORTER: Vancouver Airport In December of 2018, when Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was detained and placed in a B.C. detention center after an extradition request from the U.S., the two Michaels were imprisoned in China. Canadian officials were given limited access to them.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This has our attention at the very highest levels of our government.

REPORTER: Spavor was convicted of spying and sentenced to 11 years plus deportation.

UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Canada condemns in the strongest possible terms Mr. Spavor’s unjust conviction after more than two and a half years of arbitrary detention.

REPORTER: Today, it all came to a dramatic end with Meng, headed home to China and the two Michaels en route to Canada.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Many Canadians widely said that was essentially hostage diplomacy, right? China taking a couple of our citizens into detention in order to get what it wanted, which was the release of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. So things really went sour there. We saw all kinds of trade disputes that came out of that. And of course, there have been a multitude of other issues, including election interference. It is not a warm and cozy relationship, but it did start out on a better foot, I would say, than China has found itself in recent years with the Conservative Party.

JODIE MARTINSON: And, of course, recently a balloon in the air.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, and that's you know, that's that's one of those examples that, like we all can't help but pay attention to because it just seems so wild. But like any any number of things. Yeah. Election interference. Concern are around what China is doing with our economy. There are a lot of things that has made this relationship a difficult one.

JODIE MARTINSON: Okay, So we have these documents that the Globe has seen, and they lay out that China had a plan to interfere allegedly in Canada's election. So we did get a liberal minority government in 2021. But do we know if China actually played a significant role in making that happen?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, I will say that the prime minister has said this repeatedly. He has been very clear about it. And other officials have said the same, that foreign interference did not affect the outcome of either the 2019 or the 2021 election. And we know that the prime minister, the government, in fact, set up a non-partizan committee that was informed by various intelligence sources in both 2019 and 2021 and said, you know, the integrity of these elections is it is secure. Canadians can be confident in it. But I think that's also part of the reason that this Globe report has raised so many questions, because there are specific allegations here. For instance, the Vancouver consul general, according to the documents seen by the Globe, sort of crowing that she helped take down a couple of conservative candidates. And the conservatives have been more aggressive on China, particularly in 2021. Erin O'Toole had a long track record of being somebody who wanted to get tough with China.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN O'TOOLE: I'm very concerned Canada's entanglement with communist China under Justin Trudeau is worse than anyone could have imagined.

CATHERINE CULLEN: If you look at his election platform, he namechecks China 31 times. He really did want his party to take on a tougher stance. And we know that in the wake of that election, one candidate in particular, Conservative MP Kenny Chu, he lost and he said he is quite convinced that China really did play a role in his loss.

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KENNY CHU: There have been significant amount of disinformation being spread and unfortunately some of my constituents, they rely solely on information being provided or circulated in the WeChat. Some of these Chinese social media that is controlled by not the Canadian government, not even this is.

CATHERINE CULLEN: On Chinese language, social media accounts. There was a lot of work being done to essentially convince folks that he was to some extent, I guess, out to get Chinese Canadians that this plan to put in place a foreign agent registry. There was this misinformation going around to suggest that it was really just a way to track Chinese Canadians and basically trying to convince Chinese Canadians that it was not in their interest to support the Conservative Party of Canada. So how do you square those claims that one in particular with what the government has been saying about the fact that the integrity of the elections can be assured? I think that's part of the reason that this is causing so many raised eyebrows. More than that, really an uproar.

JODIE MARTINSON: Kenny Chu. His riding is in, you know, Richmond, B.C., just outside of Vancouver. So how can Prime Minister Trudeau be so sure that that didn't have a real impact on how the votes went in that particular riding?

CATHERINE CULLEN: What he says is he points to these nonpartizan panels that were set up both in advance of the 2019 and the 2021 election. They are informed by the work of groups like CSIS, right? Canada spy agency CSC is essentially Canada's electronic spy agency, the RCMP, that they were in touch with all of the campaigns, that everything was being monitored, and that the information they have is that the integrity of our elections held.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: This doesn't mean there hasn't been interference. Of course, we have talked openly for many, many years about the real threat of interference and attempts by interference that countries like China continually do within our democracies. And we have continually increased not just that tool, but other tools that our security agencies have to follow up on that.

CATHERINE CULLEN: But I hear what you're saying. It feels like there's a real disconnect. It it is complicated, right? If some people's opinions were swayed, when do we start saying that this was a compromise of the election? If one particular writing, although we we know from the various reports that we've seen is the idea this is more than just one. Right. Erin O'Toole, conservative leader at the time, came out and said after the election that he believed that about eight or nine ridings, the results were actually affected because of this campaign to to bring down the Conservatives essentially on issues related to China.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN O'TOOLE: We won the popular vote. We almost won the election. We lost probably about eight or nine seats to foreign interference from China. I think, you know, that would have probably given me a little more sturdy of a leg to stand on. If if I...

CATHERINE CULLEN: And we don't have the specifics, you know, we don't know the specifics of what the intelligence agency saw. And to some extent, we can appreciate that that stuff is secret or top secret. It's not made entirely public. But I think these are the questions that a lot of people are asking right now, particularly the opposition political parties saying, you know, show us the details. Help us understand how you can keep claiming this. And in the face of of these new allegations and new evidence.

JODIE MARTINSON: Yeah. Okay. And let's just spend a minute talking about how this allegedly worked and what was going on. So it has to do with political donations, right?

CATHERINE CULLEN: It's multifaceted. So some of it was just about influencing public opinion. Right. Advice that we understand that Beijing was giving out to its diplomats here, saying whatever you can do to leverage the opinion of Chinese Canadians and convince them that the Conservative Party just does not represent their interests, that's part of it. But the political donation part that is remarkable, too. According to these documents viewed by the Globe, there were undeclared cash donations to support preferred liberal candidates in the election. The documents also say that Beijing directed Chinese students studying in Canada to work as campaign volunteers. And one of the things that really is striking here and something that I think we're going to hear more about, certainly more questions about, I don't know if we're going to get more answers is that according to the documents, the Chinese government encouraged sympathetic donors to provide campaign contributions to candidates favored by China, donations for which they would receive a tax credit. And then, according to this thesis report, the political campaigns quietly and illegally returned parts of the contribution. And this is where we sort of have the alarm bells going off, because it doesn't just suggest that, you know, members of the public or Chinese diplomats were engaged in something inappropriate. But according to these allegations, the political campaigns, or at least someone inside of them was funneling money back to people and breaking the law. And this is where we have to say, well, if CSIS was aware of it, what the heck happened?

JODIE MARTINSON: Yes, Yes. This is where the real accountability hits the road. We really need to know who's doing what in response to those sort of allegations. And do we know who received political donations?

CATHERINE CULLEN: We don't have the details of all of this. And we also don't really know what's happening in terms of an investigation from the point of view of electoral law. It's the commissioner of Canadian elections that would look into this. But that is not an office that lets us know what's happening. Right? That those investigations happen behind closed doors and we only know if there is a result. So I really think watch this space. It is a really incendiary allegation that would bring political parties into this, not just forces trying to influence them. So I think that's going to be an important part of this discussion to see what comes of of that part of this story.

JODIE MARTINSON: And what about CSIS? How has the Canadian Security Intelligence Service responded to this leak from inside?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, not a lot of specifics. And once again, this is where it gets tricky, Jodie. Right? We, I think, can be to some extent sympathetic to the idea that if what you're dealing with is a lot of really sensitive security information, that you're not going to run around blabbing about it. Some of that stuff kind of has to be kept, you know, inside the coat. But then something like this comes up and people say, well, listen, you had documents that all this stuff is going on. Why are we only finding out about it now? Of course, we asked CSIS for a comment. They won't get into the specifics. They did say, though, in a statement and I want to read part of it to you, because it's interesting. Canadians should be aware of covert and deceptive activities conducted by foreign states, including the People's Republic of China and its ruling Chinese Communist Party with the intent to influence the results of democratic elections at all levels of government in Canada. So a few things there. It is an acknowledgment that China is trying to interfere with elections and that Canadians should be aware of it. I would also draw your attention to all levels of government in Canada, right. Suggesting that this isn't just a federal issue. So this is goes on in very little detail to talk about the fact that it takes steps to address all of this. It reviews threats. It says it advises the government takes steps to to reduce the threats. But in terms of specifics, you know, like that that diplomat from Vancouver crowing that she helped take down a couple of conservative candidates. If you knew about it and the information seems to come from you CSIS what did you do about it? We don't have any answers to those questions.

JODIE MARTINSON: Right. And we do remember from those elections that there were kind of slightly under the radar campaigns from Elections Canada to talk to Canadians about foreign interference. But I guess the real question is what more was done, if anything, behind the scenes? And we'll get into that. So this, of course, is not the first time that China has been accused of trying to interfere in Canadian elections. And that all kind of came to a head in November when there was this really testy moment between Trudeau and Chinese President Xi Jinping at the G20.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Nevertheless, I believe in your free and open and frank dialog, and that is what we will continue to have. We will continue. To work constructively together, but there will be things we will disagree on.

XI JINPING: (Speaking foreign language)

TRANSLATOR: Let's read the conditions, first.

JODIE MARTINSON: And seem to be connected to the accusations of attempted Chinese election interference in 2019. Take us back to that time. What was that all about?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Yeah, that that particular handshake was, as the kids say, a bit cringe a. It was just it was this moment that crystallized the challenge of what is going on between Canada and China. So let's cast our minds back to November. Global News had just put out a report suggesting that there was a clandestine network funded by China that was trying to influence candidates in the 2019 election. This report came out just as Justin Trudeau took off on an international trip. And so the prime minister was facing a lot of questions about what had happened, what he was doing about it. And he went into this meeting. Often happen at international summits. He goes into this meeting with Xi Jinping, comes out of the meeting afterwards. It's reported by the Canadian media that's on the trip that one of the issues that was raised was Canada brought up the question of not interfering in Canadian elections, the integrity of the electoral system, Just some broad general words about it. Hmm. Obviously, that didn't sit well with the Chinese, because when President Xi and Justin Trudeau run into each other later at the summit, a Canadian camera captures this awkward exchange where she is saying, why did this get leaked to the media? That's not how the conversation went. Trudeau says, Well, you know, we believe in open and frank dialog. There's a bit of like looking aside, everybody looks a little bit uncomfortable. We all flashback to like awkward conversations in high school or something. They shake hands, they part ways. But the fundamental pressure on that moment that received so much international attention, it did have to do with this question of whether or not China. Was messing with Canada's elections and how China felt about that allegation. So it is we can see it's a plotline that has been, you know, just growing and growing in Canadian politics over the course of certainly the last few months.

JODIE MARTINSON: So since the story broke this last set of allegations about the 2021 election, have we heard anything from China? In response?

CATHERINE CULLEN: We have gotten a statement from Vancouver's Chinese consulate. It says Today Canadian media repeated these so-called China's interference in Canadian federal elections, smearing and discrediting China. The consulate general expresses strong dissatisfaction and firm opposition to it says that China has always adhered to the principle of noninterference in international affairs of other countries and has never interfered in any Canadian election or internal affairs in any way. I might take this moment, Jodie, to note that Canada is not the only country where there have been allegations that China has interfered in their elections. Look at, you know, Australia. There were allegations in the UK. So Canada is certainly not unique in this regard, though China rejects the allegations.

JODIE MARTINSON: Okay. So, Catherine, let's get into your bread and butter, which is the political reactions and the fallout, all the implications of this. So Trudeau was grilled about this again on Wednesday. And what did he say in response?

CATHERINE CULLEN: He is really making a point of saying that these allegations are serious.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canadians can and should continue to have faith in their institutions around this, and they need to know that everyone is taking this seriously.

CATHERINE CULLEN: So, you know, we said earlier the prime minister, government officials saying, listen, the integrity of our elections is assured. But he was really taking pains on Wednesday to say that doesn't mean I'm saying this isn't a big deal. He called it an extraordinarily serious issue and he said it's actually something everyone should be worried about, saying that election integrity is something all, all democracies, according to him, are struggling with. And he didn't just name check China. He talked about Russia as well.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think everyone should be worried about the fact that countries like China and Russia and others are continually trying to spread misinformation and disinformation, trying to interfere in our elections unsuccessfully.

CATHERINE CULLEN: His argument is that what these countries are aiming to do is so chaos in people's confidence in democracies.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Foreign governments and foreign actors are trying to undermine people's confidence in democracy itself.

CATHERINE CULLEN: He said some folks out there and he didn't specifically say who are playing political games and undermining people's confidence in our institutions by leaning into partizan instincts using these reports for for Partizan ends.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Amplifying and giving reason. Giving partizan reasons to mistrust the outcome of an election, mistrust the experts at Elections Canada and in our security services and our top public servants who are saying that the election integrity held. That's something that we've seen from elsewhere is not a good path to go down for society or for democracy.

CATHERINE CULLEN: It's pretty clear for anybody who watches politics that he is pointing the finger at the Conservative Party of Canada. It's a pretty serious allegation that he's making there. Right. Saying that the conservatives are actually trying to undermine people's confidence in democracy to achieve political gain here, although I would point out that the conservatives have made some pretty serious and comparable allegations about the prime minister and how he's handling this issue. So it's it's getting pretty ugly.

JODIE MARTINSON: Well, and some pretty serious questions about what he knew and when he knew it and how that was communicated or not to the public.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Yes. And I think that's one of the big questions here. So not only how can you be so sure that. Right, the integrity of these elections were intact when we have these specific allegations. But yes. When did you find out? Are you saying that nationally everything was fine? You know, are there particular contests that we should we should worry about? And why are we only finding out about this now?

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Is it really believable that theses would write an entire report? And share it with foreign governments without actually telling our own Prime Minister. Is it really believable that the many reports that have been written over the last four years about this, that have now come to light in newspapers because they've been leaked by courageous whistleblowers inside our intelligence apparatus, Never were were brought before the prime minister of Canada. Of course, that is not believable. Justin Trudeau knew about this interference and he covered it up because he benefited from it.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre obviously has a very different perspective than Trudeau on this, and he says that this proves the need for something that has been called for for a while by his party, a Canadian foreign agents registry.

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PIERRE POILIEVRE: I believe we need a public registry. Of all those. Who do paid work. On behalf of foreign authoritarian regimes to influence or manipulate our politics or government.

JODIE MARTINSON: How would that actually work to prevent attempts at election interference?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well, essentially, it's not too different from a lobbyist registry, right? It's a way of forcing individuals and companies that are paid to act on behalf of foreign governments to register their activities with the federal government. It exists a version of it elsewhere in the world. The United States, Australia have them. It is actually something that the federal government here in Canada is looking at, but it's really taken a long while to get this process going and it's thought that the conservative insistence on moving on this issue fed into part of why Beijing was trying to take down some of their their candidates, or at least allegedly. So based on these reports seen by the Globe in the 2021 election.

JODIE MARTINSON: So big picture here. We know there are allegations that there may have been attempts to influence two different elections. Two different news outlets have seen details about how that may have happened. Has anyone actually established a timeline of when this information got on Sisi's radar and what people in government positions did or did not do to stop the interference before the elections were over or as soon as they knew about it?

CATHERINE CULLEN: I think these are a lot of the questions that the political actors around this are asking right now. There's a parliamentary committee that is trying to get more information about this. They're going to be having further hearings and calling witnesses, trying to find out a bit more information. And as we talked about earlier, it's not the first time this has come up. It's not that there haven't been parliamentary hearings about this before. RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki told a committee last year that, for instance, they, the RCMP, had no evidence of foreign interference at the time of the 2019 election. But she added that the force has active investigations of foreign interference. We know that this site task force, the security and intelligence threats to election task force, was looking at these elections. They never issued any public warning about interference during either of these campaigns. So a lot of questions now, a lot of mounting pieces of evidence. And again, we should say, like these new reports from the Globe, they're based on CSIS' own documents. So we know this was on the radar. But specifically, what happened, how it was addressed and the fact they were only finding out about it now because it was leaked to the media, not because of any decision that either CSIS or anyone in the federal government took. I mean, all of that just adds to the growing list of questions around all this.

JODIE MARTINSON: Well, at the heart of it, I can imagine Canadians just wanting more clarity and more information, because on the one hand, you have Trudeau and the Liberals sort of saying didn't change. The result of the elections has been going on for a long time and we've known about it. And on the other hand, you have the conservatives saying, you know, this is an all out assault and people should be alarmed. And somewhere in the middle were we're sitting here trying to figure out exactly what went down.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Yeah. And some some more specifics and answers that might help us get there. But it's clear there is a growing political pressure on the government to sort of show its work when it relates to past allegations and that there will be even more questions whenever the next election might be. It's not scheduled to be until 2025, but Ottawa's favorite parlor game is always due to get out much sooner. It might be. I think I think we can bet that there are going to be questions about how to address some of these issues the next time we find ourselves going to the polls.

JODIE MARTINSON: Okay, Catherine, thank you so much for being here today and taking us through it all.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Thanks for taking the time to talk to me.

JODIE MARTINSON: All right. That's all for today. I'm Jodie Martinson, sitting in for Jayme. Thank you for listening to Front Burner.

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