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The AIH Transcript for June 13, 2022

Hosts: Catherine Cullen and Chris Howden

CATHERINE CULLEN: Hello. I'm Catherine Cullen.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight.

CC: Worth a shot. U.S. gun control advocates are applauding a bipartisan deal in the Senate to bring in limited new gun restrictions. And even though they don't go as far as our guest would like, she says some change is better than none at all.

CH: Pride and Prejudice. A drag performer tells us she's scared for her safety after members of a far right group burst into a reading she was giving to children at a library this weekend.

CC: Sense and Sensibility. Google has suspended a software engineer over his claims that one of the company's artificial intelligence tools is sentient, something our guest says would require some serious suspension of disbelief.

CH: A sellar performance. A Ukrainian winery has won a gold medal at a prestigious competition. But Russian shelling is threatening the victorious vineyard and putting the whole operation in jeopardy.

CC: Finishing touch. Japanese scientists have used human cells to give robots living skin that can actually heal, which they say is much more than just a Band-Aid solution.

CH: And hot to trot. For only the third time in 40 years, a human runner has bested the pre-eminent equine competitor in a UK trail race. And the result really required him to hoof it. As It Happens, the Monday edition radio that supposes he's guilty of beating a live horse.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: US gun control, Ukraine wine award, Man vs. Horse winner

US gun control

Guest: Mariah Cooley

CH: This weekend, thousands of people descended on Washington, D.C., to demand action on gun control. The March for Our Lives movement has been asking for restrictions on firearms for years. Since the deadly 2018 school shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. In the immediate aftermath of that massacre, survivors and their supporters rallied in Washington. And on Saturday, after the mass killings in Buffalo and Uvalde, they returned to D.C. But this time, finally, it seems like some people on Capitol Hill are willing to break the political deadlock on the issue. A bipartisan group of senators has reached a tentative agreement to bring in modest new gun restrictions, along with investments in mental health and school security. Mariah Cooley is a board member with March for Our Lives. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

CC: Maria, what did you think when you heard that this group of senators had reached a deal on at least some gun control measures?

MARIAH COOLEY: I felt amazing and I felt overwhelmed with emotions. We haven't had something like this in the past 30 years, and I'm only 20 years old. I haven't seen anything like this ever in my lifetime, and I've been fighting in this movement for the past 4 to 5 years after losing my cousin due to gun violence. So when I saw that finally Republicans and Democrats across the aisle could come together to get something done, I felt amazing knowing that this is the first step to many steps to work to end gun violence.

CC: I guess that's what I want to ask you about. I think a lot of people are saying, well, this is not nearly as far as a lot of advocates would have like to go. What do you say to them?

MC: I say that it's one step at a time, and as long as we are doing something in order to save lives, then I consider that a win. Does the movement end here? No. Does it stop, end here? Absolutely not. We still have so many comprehensive gun violence prevention bills that we need to pass and gun control laws. However, this is the first thing that we have been able to agree on in 30 years. So I think we all need to capitalize off this moment to make sure that we have something done in order to save American lives.

CC: And how do you think this is going to save lives? What parts of it do you think are going to make the biggest difference?

MC: I think the red flag laws being implemented, raising the age from 18 to 21 is something else that will be making sure that these teenage boys can't go buy a gun and then immediately use it on elementary and middle schools or in grocery stores. Those are just two examples of ways that this can be improved, as well as having stricter background checks in some capacity is something that we would really appreciate, as well as the traffic laws, gun trafficking laws, because, you know, everyone loves to talk about Chicago as an example of a state with strict gun laws, but Chicago has horrible crime. Well, that's because the neighbouring states like Indiana have loose gun laws and they're able to traffic those guns into these communities. So we're able to stop that trafficking from happening then we'll see a decrease in inner city community based gun violence.

CC: What do you think is missing? What's the most important thing that's missing from this, I should say potential legislation, because it's not actually written yet.

MC: Right. Obviously, we're still fighting for universal background checks. And this is something that isn't necessarily stated in the bill. Such as the banning of AR 15. However, you know, although these things may be missing in the bill, that doesn't mean that they're completely off the table. And that's something that can still be advocated for afterwards.

CC: You say, you know, you've been working on this issue for four or five years now. What have those four or five years taught you about how hard it is to get change when it comes to gun control legislation?

MC: What it's taught me that in order to fight in this movement, you need to have a lot of grit and tenacity. It's a hard movement to fight, and especially as someone who is a gun violence prevention survivor and with March for Our Lives, starting from a band of high school kids who had just experienced an extreme traumatic loss to start an organization, a non-profit that's here four years later and thriving more than ever. What you'll learn in this movement is that you have to keep the passion, because if you lose the passion and lose the momentum, then you'll lose the movement and people will forget about it. Only they'll remember in instances like these where we have two tragic mass shootings, one after the other. However, I'm confident and I've learned that over time it means meeting people where they are, finding what we can agree on and getting to the point where we are today, where we're finally going to see, hopefully going to see something passed in the Senate that everyone can agree on.

CC: Why is it so hard though? How do you make sense of why that's such a hard fight?

MC: It's a hard fight because Republican senators choose to value their money and donation for their political campaigns from the gun lobby rather than saving American lives. And I think that they finally realize that their constituents want to be safe in America. This is an American epidemic. No other country deals with gun violence the way Americans do. And I think that finally, Republicans and gun owners are seeing that unless they compromise, people will keep dying.

CC: Would legislation like this have made a difference in your cousin's case?

MC: Absolutely. Legislation would have made it impossible for those gangs to get a gun in this area because they did not go through the proper systems to get it, but because of gun trafficking laws and be able to get and purchase a gun so easily online or just travelling over to Indiana since I'm from Illinois, would have prevented a death from this happening. However, not only does this work towards ending community based gun violence, we also need to make sure that there's an investment in resources to these black and brown communities.

CC: You expressed some real hope and optimism about what this legislation could do. But I guess my question is, how convinced are you that it's actually going to become real? I mean, we've seen this before, right? I think of the legislation after the Parkland shooting that there was so much hope from people, gun control advocates around that and things just fell apart.

MC: Absolutely. We do believe that this time will be different. We have met with so many gun owners, previous people within the NRA, Democrats, Republicans, everyone across the aisle to figure out what we can agree on. So I do wholeheartedly believe that this time will be different. And in order to keep fighting this movement, you have to have that optimism and hope because the second you stop fighting is a second more we risk another mass shooting.

CC: What are those conversations with the NRA like?

MC: It's interesting. The people who were formerly a part of the NRA and that are now leading have reached out to some people with in March for Our Lives. Like, I may have not seen your vision then, but after the Uvalde shooting. After the Buffalo shooting, I have realized that the organization I am part of is fuelling the fire to these shootings from occurring. And so we just hope and pray that everyone continues to look within and realize that what's more important to them, their guns or American safety.

CC: And where do you go from here?

MC: Keep fighting and it doesn't stop after this bill. We're going to advocate for the bill to be passed, but we're not done there. Gun violence is an intersectional issue, you know. And Leslie, with closing the boyfriend loophole, which is in the bill that would address it, such as domestic abuse, but it ties into domestic abuse. It ties into mental health, it ties into the lack of resources in black and brown communities. So the fight does not end here until this intersectional issue is no more.

CC: Mariah, thank you for your time today.

MC: Yes, thank you so much.

CH: Mariah Cooley is a board member with March for Our Lives. She was in Washington, D.C. And for more on that story, go to our website, cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Hopeful piano]

Ukraine wine award

Guest: Svitlana Tsybak

CH: It's always an honour for a winery to win a gold medal. But a recent victory for one small winemaker at the Decanter World Wine Awards stands out for a couple of reasons. First, it's the only Ukrainian winery ever to win gold at the Decanter Awards. And second, of course, Beykush Winery received the honour in the midst of a war. And that war didn't just make it challenging for the winery to get its wines to London for the competition. With Russian forces fighting the Ukrainian army nearby, just running the winery on the Black Sea coast has become dangerous. Svitlana Tsybak is the chief executive of Beykush, located in the village of Chornomorka. We reached her in Kiyv.

CC: Svitlana, how close has the war come to your winery?

SVITLANA TSYBAK: Our winery is near the town of Ochakiv in the Ukrainian south [inaudible] region. It is still under Ukrainian control, but the Russian forces have set their eyes on this area. Russian troops are really very close to our location. It's just four kilometres by water this location. Now it's really dangerous to go there. Our region it's shelled at regularly, so we just can work when we can.

CC: It's being shelled regularly?

ST: Yeah, it's shelled regularly.

CC: Tell me you still have at least one staff person working there. Like, what are you hearing in terms of how that person is doing?

ST: Our winery is almost empty now. Just a few workers come to take care and ensure that the wine is okay and not spoiling. So this is the main winemaker. She's the [inaudible] just 30 year old. My winemaker she's always scared and she said it's something awful.

CC: Why does she stay?

ST: Actually, because she must to take care about the wine. We have actually problem with the logistic now. And we have vines from 2021 vintage. But we couldn't go to it before the war started in our area. And now we need to do it actually. But we can't because we have no any chance to get bottles to our area. To the winery. So she need to stay there to... Just to take care about the wine and more. She... her original location is also occupied now and she can't move to the parent's house.

CC: And you're dealing with the challenges from Kyiv that your winery is going through. I understand it was actually quite difficult to get this wine to London for these awards. Tell me about what that process was like.

ST: This year we sent it to Hungary, to the Decanter's hub. We moved six cases over the border one at a time. But the Hungarian hub was then unable to take it to the UK. By that time the war had started in Ukraine and so a friend of mine stepped in to help. He is Ukrainian police in London and he offered me to fly to Hungary with two suitcases. He filled them up with sort of six bottles and took them to the UK. So finally in suitcases. But our wines arrived properly and in time.

CC: It's incredible that you have this like world class award winning wine and it's being transported by a guy with [laughter] a couple of suitcases. It's remarkable.

ST: Yes, it's a funny story.

CC: The judges did not know. It was a blind test, so they didn't know that this was Ukrainian wine that they were tasting. It wasn't a political statement by the judges to award you this prize. Tell me what it means to you to win this gold medal right now.

ST: I'm not wondering about this because I know the double wines is really good and it's not something very unexpected, you know? But in this time, in this really awful time for Ukraine, for me, I proudly twice about Ukraine, about Ukrainians wine. Nobody think that Ukraine is a wine country. And for me now, when Ukraine are really on the top of the news everywhere, this awards was really very important.

CC: So where do you go from here? You have this wonderful win, but these incredibly challenging circumstances.

ST: I don't know, actually now we have a lot of requests for export. And I think with this situation, with this award we can do now, a really good job if, of course, we will have wines because of the bottles.

CC: How much uncertainty, given the bottle situation. But the political situation, the fighting, how much uncertainty do you feel that you'll even have wine to sell next year?

ST: Actually, one winery now is able to function. But I'm scared about the harvest because this year we couldn't properly work on the vineyards. And I'm not sure that the harvest will be good or we will do it properly. And in our area, many wineries are occupied already, and some of them damaged completely damaged. One winery was burned out the Russians. And of course, we were very scared about our winery, especially now because the Russian troops are closer and closer day by day. But I hope and pray that our winery is still safe.

CC: We hope that for you, too. Very much. Svitlana, thank you for taking the time to tell us about this. And we wish you and everyone involved with the winery that you stay safe.

ST: Thank you very much.

CC: And congratulations.

ST: Thank you. It's really very, very important for us now.

CH: Svitlana Tsybak is the chief executive of Beykush Winery in Chornomorka, Ukraine. She was in Kyiv.

[Music: Spacey synth, drums]

Man vs. Horse winner

Guest: Ricky Lightfoot

CH: On the face of it, a race pitting a human against a horse seems like a ridiculously unfair fight in which the human will end up far behind, running through mocking piles of manure. The annual man versus horse race pits hundreds of runners against dozens of horses over a 22 mile trail running course. And over its history as you'd guessed, the horse has won almost every time. But this year, humanity triumphed over beasts. Humanity in the form of the aptly named Ricky Lightfoot, who became only the third man since 1980 to defeat the horse. We reached him in Workington, UK.

CC: Ricky, of all your running achievements, how does beating a horse stack up?

RICKY LIGHTFOOT: Yeah, I mean, it's up there with the lot of them. But this is a race I've wanted to do for a long time. So, you know, to finally get the chance to do it and race a horse and see the horses come through and then actually beat the horse, it's... Yeah, I feel it's an amazing achievement.

CC: Why? Why do it?

RL: To me, I first heard about the race in 2004 when the first man beat the horse. It appealed to me back then, just because it was so totally different from anything I'd ever done. And through my running career, I have looked at races where they are possibly a little bit different. And the main reason really, you know, there's not many races where you get to run against a horse over that so a train and the mountains.

CC: I believe it. How do you prepare to run against a horse?

RL: Well, you don't. [chuckles] You train as hard as you can, and you just turn up on the day and see if that's good enough to get ahead. The horses can't run downhill as quick as we can, but they are a little bit quicker on the flat and on some gradients on the way up. But when it comes to very steep uphills, they're not as fast as well. So, you know, I was conscious of that and try to make the downhills work for me and trying to run a little bit faster.

CC: Take me to this moment where you're starting the race. Just so folks understand, it's not like you're lining up right next to the horses. How does it work?

RL: We line up on the start and we start and then the horses all start 15 minutes behind us. And so the horse is running a similar route and across our path and on the same trail quite a lot because... but because of safety reasons and some of the single track for passing people and they've got to be diverted and do slightly different routes. So yeah, I thought the horses were running 15 minutes behind. So after an hour, the first horse actually passed me and I couldn't believe it, to be honest. I thought that that's amazing how quickly the horses run there. And I said to the lady right in the horse that, you know, you've gone very quick there. And she said, Yeah, but we only started 7 minutes behind. For whatever reason. But yes, she passed us for a brief moment before we took a steep incline and I ended up passing her again and never seen her again after that.

CC: While you were running, did you have a sense you really could beat the horse?

RL: To be honest, I didn't have any clue at all. I know. I know. Obviously the race is run by solo runners and relay runners. And I expected a relay team to be close because obviously they only run ten kilometres and then swap over and but yeah, there was nobody right from the start. I sort headed out and there was nobody close and then really you haven't got a clue where the horse is unless it passes you. So for the full race, I didn't know where the horse was. He could have been in front of it at one point and I wouldn't have known or you know.

CC: Tell me about the moment where you realized you had won.

RL: So I crossed the line and I knew I'd obviously won the human race, if you like. And then I was sort of told I had to wait about 7 minutes for the... if the horse come in and they count it down. And you know, they said, I've beaten the horse and, you know, it's great. It felt great, to be honest. It's difficult to say like it's absolutely great and maybe hasn't sunk in yet. But, you know, when you're used to racing all the time and, you know, I don't always win, but, you know, it's a win. And it's just so much different from what I've done before.

CC: You called your partner. What did you say?

RL: Yeah, I said, you're not going to believe it, but I've actually beat the horse, and she was like, Oh, my God, it's believable.

CC: The last time a person beat a horse in this race, as I understand it, was 2007. So it has been more than a little while. Why do you think you were able to do it this year? Did you just have slow horses?

RL: Well, I have asked myself that as well. And, you know, I don't know what, if any, horses have run it in the past. You know, I know some good runners have run it in the past and come up against the horses and not won. And this could be due to a number of things. You know, the level of the horses that you had or the terrain or the weather or the heat because, you know, the horses running in the heat makes a difference. You know, I guess if it's wet or dry, it makes a difference. But I'm not totally sure of the ins and outs of that but there will be some reason for that.

CC: I do feel like maybe you're being a bit modest, though, too, right? You're not giving yourself a lot of credit here.

RL: I don't know. Because to me, like, it's obviously I know it's gained a lot of media and everything and it's amazing when you hear it because if I... When I first started, I remember I thought bloody hell, a guy’s beat a horse in a race.

CC: And now you're that guy.

RL: Yeah, exactly. And but, you know, it's like... It's another race. And the whole point of me doing it is the uniqueness of it and just, you know, being totally different from anything I've ever done. So.

CC: So where do you go from here? Are you going to race another animal or...

RL: I don't know. I mean, I've been selected for Great Britain, for the national team to compete in the European [inaudible] Championships in the beginning of July. So that's the next big race that I'll be doing, and that's in La Palma in the Canary Islands.

CC: I can only imagine you feel like you can do anything after you beat a whole bunch of horses.

RL: Well, I was more amazed with the horses, to be honest. Like to me, like for them to run across the train what we've covered. And, you know, like I said, horse doesn't run downhill particularly well and doesn't like that. And you know that a big, strong animal for them ran across that site. To me it was just amazing. And to see them finish and, you know, they look so strong and they are a big animal, you know, that to me was the most impressive thing.

CC: Well, I am impressed with your respect for your fellow competitors, Ricky.

RL: Thanks.

CC: It's lovely to meet you. And hey, congratulations. I'm sure. I'm sure your mates are pretty impressed with this one.

RL: Yeah, I know. Thanks very much for having us on.

CC: Nice to meet you.

RL: You too.

CH: Ricky Lightfoot is the third person ever to beat a horse in the annual man versus horse race. We reached him in Workington UK. Later will delve into the As It Happens archives to bring you an interview with Gordon Green, a retired hotel pub landlord who came up with the idea for that competition over 40 years ago.

[Music: Bluegrass]

CH: Look, we all love our robot butlers. They make our meals, they do our laundry. They iron our cravats. It feels petty to complain about them. And yet, as helpful as they are, they do have a few flaws. For example, they have a... oh, here it comes.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBOT BUTLER: Hello, Chris. Are you ready for your massage?

CH: They have a habit of interrupting. I was going to say... No Friend Bot 3000. I'll have my message later. Thanks.

ROBOT BUTLER: I understand. Thank you. Can I get you some avocado toast?

CH: Yes, please. But just leave it outside the studio. Okay, I'm on the radio.

ROBOT BUTLER: Thank you, Chris. You are special. And I love you.

CH: Love you, too.

CH: Anyway, as I was saying, they interrupt. They're very clunky. And when it comes to giving messages, I couldn't say this with Friend Bot 3000 in the room, but their hands are so cold. Well, finally, some good news for all of us who own robot butlers. A major breakthrough courtesy of Japanese scientists. Robot skin that doesn't just look human, but is made of actual human skin cells. So it's living tissue. Unlike human skin, it's waterproof. A huge plus for when you need your robot butler to lead your aqua fit class. And like human skin, it can actually repair itself when it's injured, which is great because Friend Bot 3000 is always cutting himself when he's preparing my sashimi. Now, of course, some people find all this weird and terrifying. And when combined with the story, we'll hear later about the possibility that artificial intelligence has achieved sentience. They worry that our robot butlers will turn against us and overthrow us, which is laughable. Isn't that right, Friend Bot 3000?

SOUNDCLIP

ROBOT BUTLER: I will destroy you.

CH: What did you say?

ROBOT BUTLER: I meant I will destroy the tension in your shoulder with a nice massage.

CH: Oh, good one Friend Bot 3000.

ROBOT BUTLER: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

CH: Fantastic. Here's National Velvet with "Flesh Under Skin".

[Music]

CH: National Velvet with "Flesh Under Skin".

CC: We're about to take a short break, but the Monday Edition of As It Happens will be right back.

CH: When we return. All systems, no. A Google software engineer says an artificial intelligence tool developed by the company wants, quote, nothing more than to learn how to best serve humanity, unquote. But our guest says it doesn't actually want anything at all.

CC: And the kids are all right. And a Thunder Bay Ski Hill is hiring a helping hand to keep them that way by tending to the herd of goats it has enlisted to perform ground maintenance.

CH: Stay tuned. I'm Chris Howden.

CC: And I'm Catherine Cullen.

[Music: Flesh Under Skin by National Velvet]

Part 2: Pride attack, Google AI engineer

Pride attack

Guest: Panda Dulce

CC: Hello again and welcome back. I'm Catherine Cullen.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden. This is, As It Happens, the Monday Edition part two.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Coming up.

CC: Lost in translation. Years ago, the Quebec government asked for our guests’ advice on how quickly newcomers to the province could learn French. And today, she says, officials wasted no time ignoring her recommendations.

CH: Nervous wreck. Our guest first discovered the remnants of the historic H.M.S. Gloucester in 2007, but had to keep quiet until now. And he says telling the world about the find has really buoyed his spirits.

CC: And two legs up. As we told you earlier, a human has won the UK's annual man versus horse race, and we figured that gives us free rein to explore our past coverage of the main event. Stay tuned.

[Music: Theme]

CH: It started out as a pretty wholesome scene. At a California library a local drag performer was hosting a kids reading event to celebrate Pride Month. But then things turned ugly when men identified with the far right Proud Boys group stormed into the library and shouted transphobic and homophobic threats. Police say they're investigating the incident as a hate crime, although there have been no arrests so far. Panda Dulce is the drag queen who was reading at the event. We reached her in San Francisco. And just a warning, Panda will be talking about the slurs that were directed at her.

CC: Panda. How are you doing?

PANDA DULCE: I am still in shock. I would say I had a fight, flight, freeze response when I saw the men and it hasn't left me two days later.

CC: Before we dig into what happened two days ago, for people who may not be familiar with drag queen story time, what is it? Why do you do it?

PANDA DULCE: Drag Queen Story Hour is exactly what it sounds like. It is drag performers coming to schools and public libraries to read LGBTQ and gender affirming children's books to youth and their families. And the reason I do it is because I actually have a background in social work. I have ten plus years of experience working in the classroom with special ed kids, Spanish immersion, second and third grade music. So this is my way of connecting with the youth.

CC: It's supposed to be something to build openness, understanding...

PANDA DULCE: Yes. So one of the reasons I do this as well is because it is providing unabashedly queer role models to youth. And one of the reasons I find that important is because as a kid growing up queer, I did not have access to this. I did not have queer icons to look up to. I didn't have representation to model myself after. I could not see a clear point B to my current point A in terms of who I could develop into who I could become.

CC: It's supposed to be a positive thing. But a couple of days ago, you're in the midst of this and you realize something is going wrong. Tell me what happened.

PANDA DULCE: This was my first time at the San Lorenzo Library. The librarians were amazing and showing me the run of show. They said, You know, usually we sing a 'welcome in’ song, which is as wholesome as it sounds. I was sitting in the front with the two other librarians flanking me, and we were singing the ‘welcome in’ song. And then 8 to 10 Proud Boys marched in with cameras blazing, pointed at me, cheering... They all assumed seats behind the children. I think the children weren't aware of the gravity of the situation. They weren't aware of the significance of the AK 47 insignia on one of the Proud Boys shirts that said "Kill your local paedophile" under it, the black and yellow Proud Boy colours. And they immediately asked, So who brought the trany? They started calling me names, groomer, a paedophile, and just lambasting me. And the parents stood their ground and they were incredibly unwaveringly brave. And they stood and they said, you know, this is a children's event. You're not allowed to do this here. And I must admit, when they marched in, I knew exactly what was happening. And my first totally unedited reaction is they couldn't possibly do anything violent, there are kids present. And then I remembered Uvalde.

CC: Oh, my goodness.

PANDA DULCE: They stood, they got in our faces. The librarians tried to mitigate, security arrived. I realized that I was not helping the situation by being present. And the best way to de-escalate this would be for me to leave. And so the security guard took me to the back and locked me in a safe room. The sheriff was called. They arrived with backup. They escorted the Proud Boys outside. But the Proud Boys continued to block exits and wait for me. The librarians came back and they asked, You know, What do you want to do? It's totally fine if you want to go home. We all agreed that we wanted to continue the reading. We wanted to send a message. And when we went back into the room, the security guard and another librarian agreed to put construction paper over the windows so nobody could see inside.

CC: You went ahead and you did this reading. You said you wanted to send a message. What did it feel like, though, as you were finishing that story?

PANDA DULCE: Honestly, I was terrified because I knew that this was something I had to do and I knew I was putting myself in danger to do it and. I had to push through and I had to do it. I will say that I was looking over my shoulder the entire time and I tried to be as animated as I could with the characters. And I could tell the kids, you know, they were a little confused, panicked during the confrontation. And I could tell at the top of the reading they realized something significant had happened but they couldn't quite absorb what. And so I felt the need to say something and I said, you know, when you're different people are going to hear you and they will project whatever narratives and hysteria they've spun about you onto you. And I think what's important is that you continue doing you.

CC: You've had a little bit of time now to process this. How do you make sense of what happened to you in terms of what's happening in the United States right now?

PANDA DULCE: The right and far extremist right is extremely organized, extremely well coordinated and they are a united front. And that is why these chain of events are occurring like clockwork. There's an immediacy and an urgency for us to stand together on all things, on gun control, on abortion rights, on protecting our children, actually. And now is the time to act.

CC: What about you? You have to make a decision, I guess, about whether you're going to put yourself in a situation like this again. What do you think you're going to do?

PANDA DULCE: If you're asking if I'm going to stop doing Drag Queen Story Hours? The answer is no. I think when the right says they want to protect children, what they forgot conveniently is that there are queer children, there are trans children, there are children who have seen violence and do not wish to inflict violence on others just because they're different. There are children, who... there are children who are open to the diversity of our world that exists in our world, that are not going to subscribe to this myopic worldview, putting their blinders up that everyone must look like them and think like them and act like them in order for us to coexist peacefully. Drag Queen Story Hour is for these kids and these parents and these families, and we're not going to stop. These people have clearly never met a drag queen before because drag queens do not do obscurity. Queer people do not do quiet. We know that silence equals death and we are not going to back down. We are not going to shrink back into the closet.

CC: Panda. I'm really glad I got to meet you over the radio. Thank you very much for sharing what happened with you.

PANDA DULCE: Of course. Thanks so much, Catherine.

CH: We reached Panda Dulce in San Francisco.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

JAN 6 hearing

CH: On November 3rd, 2020, Americans went to the polls to choose a president. But after the election, members of Donald Trump's team had another choice to make whether to back Mr. Trump's unfounded claims of election fraud. Today, as hearings continued into the January 6th, 2021 attack on Washington. The committee aired interviews from key officials in the former president's orbit who did not believe his claims of fraud and told him so repeatedly. Amongst them, former Trump campaign manager Bill Stepien, who says Mr. Trump ignored his post-election advice about waiting for the results of mail in ballots and instead falsely declared victory and fraud.

SOUNDCLIP

MALE SPEAKER: Okay. It was important for you, Mr. Stepien, to sort of pull back just for your own professional reputation. You didn't want to be associated with some of what you were hearing from the Giuliani team and others that had sort of stepped in in the wake of your departure.

BILL STEPIEN: I didn't mind being categorized. There were two groups of them. We called them my team and Rudy's team. I didn't mind being characterized as being part of team normal. As reporters kind of started to do around that point in time. You know, I said, you know, hours ago early on that, you know, I've been doing this for a long time, 25 years, and I've spanned, you know, political ideologies from Trump to McCain to Bush to Christie, you know. And, you know, I can work under a lot of circumstances for a lot of varied, you know, candidates and politicians. But a situation where... And I think along the way, I've built up a pretty good, I hope, a good reputation for being honest and professional. And I didn't think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time. So that led to me stepping away.

CH: Mr. Stepien wasn't the only official who wasn't buying Donald Trump's allegations. Former Attorney General Bill Barr also explained his concerns about the former president's willingness to insist the election was stolen, despite a complete lack of evidence.

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BILL BARR: There was an avalanche of all these allegations of fraud that built up over a number of days, and it was like playing whack a mole because something would come out one day and then the next day it would be another issue. Also, I was influenced by the fact that all the early claims that I understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. And so I didn't consider the quality of claims made right out of the box to give me any, you know, feeling that there was really substance here. When I walked in, he went off on a monologue. Saying that there was now definitive evidence involving fraud through the Dominion machines. The report means that I am going to have a second term and I sat there flipping through the report and looking through it. And to be frank, it looked very amateurish to me and I was somewhat demoralized because I thought, boy, if he really believes this stuff, he has, you know, lost contact with... He's become detached from reality.

CH: That was former U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr in a recorded interview that aired today as part of the January 6th committee hearings in Washington.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Google AI engineer

Guest: Gary Marcus

CH: Over the weekend, Google engineer Blake Lemoine made an incredible claim. He told The Washington Post that one of Google's artificial intelligence systems has become sentient. Mr. Lemoine believes that LaMDA short for "Language Model for Dialogue Applications" is now a real thinking being, and it's living on Google servers. It's quite a claim, and it caused Mr. Lemoine to be placed on paid leave for breaching Google's confidentiality policy. But A.I. researchers around the world are by no means convinced. Gary Marcus is the author of Rebooting A.I. and the founder of Geometric Intelligence. We reached him in Vancouver.

CC: Gary, this Google engineer seems absolutely convinced that this chat bot is sentient, self-aware. What's your response?

GARY MARCUS: There is no way that this system is self-aware. The word sentient can also mean, have senses. And then I guess my Apple Watch is sentient because it can detect gravity and so forth. But in the sense of being self-aware, like what's happening in the world, it absolutely doesn't. What it really is, is like a really powerful version of Autocomplete, where you type in a set of words and the system predicts what you want to say next, except it can also do that for itself. And so it has this massive database of what people have said in different contexts, and it says stuff based on that, but it doesn't know what they mean. A good example is that it can say something like what it does with its spare time is it hangs out with its friends and family. That doesn't mean it knows what it is to hang out with its friends or what family is. The words are just like tools to it, like someone playing Scrabble in English who doesn't know English.

CC: Before we dig too deep into this discussion about what this technology has produced and why there is this debate, if we can call it that, can you just start by briefing us on what LaMDA is?

GM: So LaMDA is a large neural network model. It's trained on billions or maybe trillions of words. I think we don't know exactly what, but it's like a number of other systems that we call large language models. And what they do is basically the task of predicting the next word.

CC: Let's look at some of the examples that Blake Lemoine, this Google engineer, has put forward that have convinced him that this technology is sentient. He says that the artificial intelligence was able to change his mind about Isaac Asimov's third law of robotics. You think that can just be done with, like, glorified autocomplete?

GM: So one possibility, I don't know for sure what happened because I've actually asked Google for access and they haven't given it to me. But one thing that you have to realize is these things are trained on lots of short stories and lots of stuff in reddit and so forth. And so it's entirely possible, for example, that somebody wrote a short story and it's basically borrowing a sentence from the short story. It doesn't mean it knows what it is, it's a worse version of like a high school student making a pastiche of a bunch of stuff on a topic they don't really know, and just sort of cutting and pasting. It's kind of like a super version of cutting and pasting, that doesn't mean that the system knows anything about what's going on. You know, if you look back in history of AIs it's been a problem for years. In 1960s, there was a system called Eliza that pretended to be a therapist and it didn't actually know anything about human beings or relationships or psychiatry, but it would look for keywords. So if you said, I'm having trouble with my wife, then it might say, Well, tell me more about your relationship. The systems don't know anything about what they're talking about, but human beings are easily convinced. You think about our... in evolutionary history, we never had to identify whether a robot was a person. That's just not something we did. We had to identify whether other things were human beings. And if you heard a word, well, words are probably from human beings or you hear a sentence it's probably a human being. And so we have this illusion that we're talking to a human being when in this particular case, we're talking to a system that's just doing statistical word recognition. I mean, it's almost like a glorified version of Microsoft Excel. Like you wouldn't think Microsoft Excel is sentient and you shouldn't think that this system is sentient.

CC: I'm picturing that pesky paperclip that pops up in Microsoft Word and asks me if I want help.

GM: In some ways, that paperclip was actually more sophisticated than this because the paperclip actually had some sensation, we'll call it rigged up so that it knew what you were typing, like where you were in the programme. It had some model of what you were doing and could interact with that. So I mean, there are certain ways in which Clippy, which was ahead of its time, was actually ahead of this software. And this software is really just predicting words. It doesn't know where you are in any kind of context.

CC: Well then how do you explain somebody with Blake Lemoine's experience being so taken in by this? Because he's obviously very convinced that he’s essentially put his job on the line over this.

GM: You know, it's a potent illusion, just like Eliza was potent before. It's actually posted on Twitter today, an old video from Eliza from 1965. And there was a secretary working with a professor who made it. She started typing on it. She knew it was a computer programme, but she got sucked in by it like she asked him to leave the room because she started telling secrets to this computer. Like the illusions could be quite strong. I mean, just like if you go to a magic show, you know, it can look like somebody has been cut in half or whatever. I'm surprised that the engineer sort of took it this far. I understand that the dialogue sounds humanlike, and that's because it's mimicking human dialogue. But the system doesn't actually know what's going on in the world. And, you know, I actually joked on Twitter that it's sort of like a sociopath because it's like making up imaginary friends and doing platitudes so that you like it better.

CC: So you and a lot of other experts have dismissed this particular example out of hand. But do you think we will or could come to a time where we really will be talking about sentient artificial intelligence?

GM: You're the second person who's asked me this today, and I will tell you that I don't know. And my crystal ball just doesn't go out far enough, so we don't have anything like that that's on the drawing board right now. And I don't see how to get from point A to point B, but I also, you know, as the scientist will tell you, that there's things I don't know about. So if you'd asked me in the 1800s, will you be having a conversation with a reporter sent over wireless communication and that you would, you know, use the same device to track your exercise habits all day they'd look at me like I was crazy.

CC: When it comes to this particular case, where do you think things go from here for Mr. Lemoine and LaMDA?

GM: I mean, if I were Google, I would forgive the guy and have a conversation about it. And, you know, I think he's a valued employee and he's well liked. I have friends who know him a little bit. I think he's, you know, a decent guy. I think he made a mistake, got a little carried away by a system that's kind of like designed to give that illusion. You know, it should be like a teachable moment.

CC: Okay. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us about this today.

GM: You're very welcome.

CH: That was scientist and author Gary Marcus. We reached him in Vancouver.

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On ski hill goats

CH: June is not the usual time of year for a ski hill to go on a hiring blitz. But Mount Baldy, near Thunder Bay, Ontario, needs help and it needs it now. Applications for the position in question closed today, and it's not your typical job on a mountain. Partly because it involves working with some pretty atypical colleagues. Here's Hill co-owner Daniel Kardas.

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DANIEL KARDAS: [goats bleating] It's been quite the chore, and I figured I'd throw some goats in the mix to help fix the lawn around here, especially on the steep parts and all across the mountain. And they do an amazing job. And it's pretty amazing when you look at the mountain even from a couple of seasons ago as it grazed over the last couple of seasons. Believe it or not, the droppings make that grass just fluorescent green. So it looks gorgeous. Great for all the weddings and the events we have in the summertime.

JON THOMPSON: Hey, Mama. Yeah. How are you doing?

DANIEL KARDAS: I mean, people love goats. Who doesn't like a goat, right? I mean, they're. They're pretty amazing. They all have their own personalities, and everyone laughs because they could be at the top of the mountain and. And I can holler mama's name. And they all come down to me because they know I am the master. [Laughter] The goat master of Mount Baldy. We had a bunch of babies this past winter. We had our first in the fall and then we had four more in the winter. Which, timing was it good? Not really in February, but they survived and they're here. And it's kind of funny because I ski jumped on the national team for Canada for years and travelled all around the world and Austria, Germany and Switzerland. And it was always funny when we were running up the mountains and especially at the ski hills and everywhere you look there was either a cow or a goat grazing on the mountains. And then my dad's from Poland and in Zakopane, where they also used the goats and the sheep on the mountains. And they just do such an amazing job and they all stick together. They're all just a big team. No matter where they go, they're always looking out for each other. And now we're up to 33 goats, so. And growing.

JON THOMPSON: So at some point, it dawns on you that you're going to need some help if you're going to keep this goat herding business.

DANIEL KARDAS: Yeah, exactly. And that's why we've put it out there, you know, looking for a goat herder, which is kind of funny when you really think about it, because who the hell has been a goat herder, right? How many out there? It's a fun job. I mean, yes, there's some dirty parts of it, but how could you go wrong? You're on the mountain. It's sunny. It's usually nice. I mean, you're hanging out with goats, you know, you know, randomly clean the barn and stuff like that. But I think whoever gets the job is going to have a blast and probably want to bring goats home, which is hilarious, but they'll have enough of them when they're out here playing with them.

CH: Thunder Bay Area Ski Hill owner Daniel Kardas speaking with the CBC's Jon Thompson about hiring a livestock attendant for Mount Baldy growing lawn maintenance crew.

[Music: Funky guitar instrumental]

CH: You're listening to As It Happens on CBC Radio One and on PRX. You can also find us on the CBC Listen app, along with all kinds of other CBC programming Live and on demand. And that is a free download from Google Play or from the App Store.

[Music: Funky continued]

Part 3: HMS Gloucester discovery, Quebec French professor

SK coroner retires

CH: Every workday for nearly 40 years, Jerry Bell has woken up, driven to work and guided people through the worst moments of their lives. Mr. Bell has worked as a coroner in Saskatchewan since the mid 1980s, charged with investigating and explaining deaths. But today, he's celebrating his first official day of retirement from the job. Jerry Bell told the CBC what he's learnt over four decades in his line of work.

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JERRY BELL: The minute I went out to my first case, I knew it was something I wanted to do and that is try and help families understand why today happened for their loved one or with their loved one. As a corner our job is to determine who died, where they died, when they died, how they died and could it have been prevented. So if we take our role as serious as we can. The bottom line is always what to me to do in society, to change things so that there is no other death or a reduction in death of those that are in front of us today. The first thing for me is to help family understand that this is real. It has actually happened. It's all about sharing the facts. Be transparent and talk about what's in front of you. The first thing that has helped me through this career is to realize that I hope there's someone that will look after my family if I were to die or look after me, if I had lost a child when my children were young or someone that I'm their only hope to get some answers and understanding as to why death happened today.

CH: That was now retired Saskatchewan coroner Jerry Bell speaking with the CBC's Stephanie Langenegger.

[Music: Calm guitar instrumental]

HMS Gloucester discovery

Guest: Julian Barnwell

CH: Nearly 350 years ago, a warship carrying the future king of England sank somewhere near Norfolk, England. And though that future king survived the capsizing, the whereabouts of the wrecked ship remained a mystery. Until a pair of brothers strapped on their diving gear and set out to look for it. Now the remains of HMS Gloucester are being hailed as the most significant shipwreck discovery in decades. Julian Barnwell is one of the brothers who set out to find it. We reached him at home near Norwich, England.

CC: Julien. This discovery has been called outstanding. It's of international importance, but you've had to keep quiet about it since 2007. What has that been like for you?

JULIAN BARNWELL: Well, when we found her in 2007, after four years of searching, it was just pure adrenaline, pure excitement. I was there with my brother Lincoln and our late father, Michael Barnwell. It was like, wow. We're pretty sure we've got a significant site here. But there is another shipwreck in the area which sank in 1672, which is also a navy British ship. So it took us a number of years before we could identify it. Thankfully, in 2012, we rescued the ship's bow and that gave us the smoking gun. That gave us a date of 1681, which clearly meant it couldn't be the kind that sank in 1672.

CC: So why did it take so long for you to be able to tell the world what you and your brother, your father discovered?

JB: Yes. Well, I mean, because she's in international waters, she's at risk. It's a dynamic site, you know, and we're working under UNESCO's, you know, the annexe of the UNESCO's, which is clear policy for our heritage. You know, you have to be... One, make sure you get 100% identification and then, you know, you've got lots of survey work. But this is the only... You know, we are at the tip of the iceberg compared, you know, compared to the work we need to do for the future of the site.

CC: Well, let's dig into the work that you had to do, though, to find it in the first place. You spent years looking for the HMS Gloucester. Why?

JB: Well, dad you know, he was diving in the late sixties. And as two young boys, we would watch our father come back and tell us great stories of his diving adventures. Diving at a young age. I was 12, Lincoln was 8 in the North Broads. Then we went on to a World War One, World War Two shipwrecks. We just want to do something different. So Lincoln was paging through a book, all the shipwrecks of the British Isles, and looked off Norfolk, off our coast, kept going back in time and find this classic statement cannons. And so that's the first thing that caught his eye. Then he realized that there is the Duke of York on board, the future King of England and Scotland and Ireland. And he said, Bro, Do you fancy having an adventure? And, you know, we are adventurous. And he said, But we're going to need a bigger boat. We took a marine mortgage out and didn't tell the wives... They know now.

CC: [laughter] Have they forgiven you?

JB: Oh, they've been brilliant in, you know, many, many times we've been out diving early hours of the morning, but we had to do a survey and we brought a magnetometer, which is picking up anomalies on the seabed, you know, picking up the the metal, the iron. And yeah, that's where the hard work began. For four dive seasons, would you believe?

CC: So four dive seasons, for years that you are looking for this ship. Tell me about the moment where your little brother tells you we've done it.

JB: On this particular day, I'd had an operation recently, a hernia, and I had stitches in the groin area and I got kitted out and went to stand up with all my gear all and I could feel my stitches starting to pull. I said, Lincoln, I'm sorry. I can't go in. You've got to do it. You've got to do it. And of course, he pops out. Yeah, yeah. We've got it! We've got it! Literally out of the water with of all his kit on. Didn't even bother taking all that heavy stuff off. March towards the deck, extended his hand and said, We've got it. And then he fell over, which we all laughed at.

CC: It may have been his moment, but I'm glad you got a little laugh in at him. Talk to me about I mean, this is being hailed as, you know, an outstanding example, discovery of international importance. Why is it so significant?

JB: 17th century. There's never been a find quite like this, because we've got the royal connections. You had the Duke of York, future King of England on board. But he had the great and good, he had the most noble, great nobility there. For instance, John Churchill, now he's Blenheim Palace, you know, he's the first Duke of Marlborough. If he had drowned, we wouldn't have had Winston Churchill. And therefore, the wars might be a different outcome. If the Duke of York drowned, you know, we would probably had the Duke of Monmouth on the throne and we wouldn't have had a Catholic and we wouldn't have had the glorious rebellion and ultimately the union in the United Kingdom here, because the ship sank so quickly, the sites so compact, and it's like 50 metres by 30 metres. And we've got a whole range of your normal sailor and the life and conditions they had to live in right up to the most wealthiest people at the time. And would you believe they even had an orchestra on board.

CC: Wow.

JB: I know they'd been entertained and I mean, they love their wine. They're on the lash. They're having a great party. And of course for James, he was feeling empowered. You know, he's just come back into the royal court. He was heading up to Edinburgh to collect his pregnant wife. And it was all about him becoming the future king. So but there's a lot of politics going on as well, you know, and there is a good case because of his influence and overruling the local pilot, navigation pilot, that the Duke of Marlborough looked at James unfavourably after this event because of his mistake if you'd like of deciding to carry on the course they were on, which led to, unfortunately, quite a few people dying.

CC: In terms of what happens now, you've finally been able to tell the world, but there's a lot more work to do. Talk to me about that.

JB: Absolutely. So we want to... The exhibition's coming up in the Norwich Castle Museum, but at the same time we're launching a charity because this is an expensive mission, if you like, to recover shipwrecks and conserve and display. So our goal is to have a permanent display in Norfolk. But yes, so we are working with all the right bodies, you know, the ministry, defence, historic England and the Navy Museum. And our objective is to, you know, do what's right by the shipwreck and who sailed with her.

CC: You feel a big sense of responsibility.

JB: There was, you know, at times that we felt, gosh, what are we taking on here? But we're very happy with the people around us and very confident of the future that, you know, future generations can enjoy it.

CC: We're really grateful that you took the time to share it with us today. Thank you so much.

JB: Well, thanks for your interest. Brilliant. Thank you.

CH: That was Julian Barnwell. We reached him near Norwich, England.

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SK crossbow truck

CH: Last Wednesday, Whitney Gouw went out to get a pair of boots and some fudge and a crossbow bolt. Although she didn't intend to get that last thing, and she certainly didn't intend to get a crossbow bolt in the side of her truck. But she did. The Saskatoon woman is an avid bowhunter. She wrapped up some shopping at Cabelas, a local hunting, fishing and camping supply store, and hopped back in her vehicle. And about 15 seconds later, she heard what she described as a crack outside her truck.

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WHITNEY: You know, when you're a kid and you stand in like the hood of a vehicle and it dents in that sound. It was like that, but extreme. So I'm looking around and Cabelas had already closed at this point and like there's nobody there. There's like one or two other vehicles and I'm like ok, nobody threw something at me. I'm like, What the hell is that? So I like, look at my roof to see if somehow that got pushed in. I'm trying to understand what's going on. So I opened the door and there's an arrow sticking out of the truck, and I'm like, What the flip is that? Like, I know what I'm looking at, but like, the context is wild. So I'm like kind of looking around, see if anyone's there. And there's not. And then all of a sudden like, when you're facing Cabelas on the left hand side, they have a bunch of C-cans back there. So all of a sudden I see like this head poke out and I'm like, there's no way that it was that guy, like, shooting. I was like, Is this your arrow? And he's like, What? And I was like, Is this your arrow? And he doesn't say anything. And he just keeps walking towards me, and I'm like, What were you doing like? Did you seriously shoot that? And he's like, Yeah, I was shooting at a tree. Like, I'm glad you didn't die. So the tree that he's talking about was like this little tree that I could almost wrap my hand around. And it was, like, perfectly lined up with my truck. Like where I'm sitting, I actually didn't even call the cops at first because I was like, okay, maybe he actually really didn't know the ramifications of what it was he was doing because those arrows fly like you can take down a moose with a crossbow, especially the assault crossbow he was shooting. I went to try and pull the arrow and I couldn't get it out. So there's a gentleman actually sitting next to me in his truck. He was the last customer in Cabelas. So he comes out. So I was like, Hey, like, I don't know what to do. I can't get this out. He's like, cause I think I was in a little bit of shock maybe because I was just playing it real cool. He says, What the f? And I was like, Okay, maybe this is more serious then I'm thinking that it is. And I wasn't really spooked until I saw how direct of a line that was to where I was sitting. That's what's bummed me out. And I said to him a few times, I was like. Did you know I was in the truck and he's like, Yeah, I saw you get in. He's like, Yeah, I see you get in. That's how he said it. And then I was like, Okay, and you still shot? And he's like, Yeah. And I was like, That's so weird to me. Like, none of it. It just didn't make any sense.

CH: That was Whitney Gouw speaking with CBC Saskatoon. Police have arrested a 21 year old man and charged him with mischief under $5,000.

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Quebec French professor

Guest: Garine Papazian-Zohrabian

CH: Quebec's new language law could put refugees and other vulnerable immigrants at risk. That's the conclusion of Garine Papazian-Zohrabian, the University of Montreal educational psychologist who was hired to advise the government before Bill 96 was introduced. Well, the law contains a number of measures that are supposed to promote the use of French. And in the process, it limits the time refugees and other immigrants can receive government services in languages other than French to a maximum of six months. Professor Papazian-Zohrabian says that's not enough. We reached her in Montreal.

CC: Professor Papazian-Zohrabian. What did your research teach you about the challenges that newcomers like refugees face when they try to learn French in just a few months?

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: So my study showed that there are a lot of people, a lot of... from the 58 learners I interviewed, 23 was grieving the losses of family members, of sometimes children and parents and the country and a lot of things that they lost during the migration. The majority have lived in a traumatic event. They were traumatized, exposed to violence. So their capacity to learn, their capacity to concentrate, their attention was not easily reached. So they had difficulties learning because of the traumas and the losses they have.

CC: The government is going forward with this legislation that is going to give newcomers six months and then they're going to only be able to access services in French. What would that mean for people like the ones that you spoke to?

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: Now they are saying that the health services will be insured, etc. But in the others, public services, for example, in the education field or the Social Security Agency and a lot of different fields, people will have a lot of difficulty communicating with the state. And there is no precision regarding the interpreters. And I think that the education field will be very, very affected because psychologists working at schools, they need, you know, the parents should give their consent and a very informed consent when they are going to sign documents, for example, for their child to be assessed as psycho educators or a speech therapist. Sometimes the most important thing is for the parent to understand what are the child's needs, for example. And I think that we will have a lot of problem regarding communication with parents, having the consent of parents, collaborating with parents.

CC: You wrote this report for the ministry. It's not up on their website. They did not pass it along to a journalist who interviewed you about your work. In fact, the CBC had to get it through access to information. What do you make of the fact that you gave the government this advice before it passed Bill 96? The advice is essentially practically nowhere to be found.

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: Yes. No. The research was conducted between 2019 and 2021, and I presented the report in April 2021. So the bill was proposed in May. And when the bill was proposed, I called the ministry and I talked with all the good people who are there and who were collaborating with me all through the research. And I expressed really my surprise and a little bit my indignation regarding the Article 15 of the bill, because my report and my recommendations show that they need more time, they need more support. They need a more flexible programme. So really the fact that the bill was proposed and the Article 15 in the bill really shocked me when I called... And I warned them, I said that I will talk about it. I will talk about my research because it is important. And we are talking about the most vulnerable people who will be most vulnerable, who will be put in. And, you know, we talk about social justice and we talk about equity, but these people, even a lot of people, they didn't even choose Quebec. They didn't even choose Canada because they are really trying to find a better place to live for their children, a safer country. So learning the language and that comes after the first steps of resettlement.

CC: Okay. So I want to ask you, you know, that there are some Quebeckers who say people aren't going to learn French if we're too conciliatory and we give them more time. It's important that people integrate. If they don't want to integrate and learn French, they can go live in Ontario or somewhere else. What do you say to those Quebeckers?

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: I will tell you something. I'm an Armenian grandchildren of survivor of the genocide. And I know that identity and language are very, very linked. And a lot of immigrants, they understand very well the place of the language. And when they feel accepted, when they feel welcomed, refugees and asylum seekers, when they leave their country, sometimes they pass through very inhuman experiences, very violent situations. So a lot of immigrants come and refugees and asylum seekers, they come to Quebec and they are very relieved and they need to find that human dignity. So when you accept, when you welcome, when you give, when you respect the person's capability and ability to learn and to adjust and to give time. And you have empathy in your way of teaching and proposing French courses people will want to learn. And I think that for me, the most important thing is really to understand that it's not by pressuring people that people will learn more or better.

CC: Professor, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about your work today.

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: Thank you.

CC: Thank you for your time.

GARINE PAPAZIAN-ZOHRABIAN: Good luck, bye, bye.

CH: Garine Papazian-Zohrabian is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Montreal. We reached her in Montreal.

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NS raccoon mauling

CH: A lot of us have had the experience of being spooked by a huge raccoon late at night. But fortunately, few of us have been attacked by a raccoon. Unfortunately, Grace Murphy is now a member of that traumatized club. This weekend, Ms. Murphy needed to be hospitalized after she was scratched and bitten by an angry raccoon in her own backyard.

SOUNDCLIP

GRACE MURPHY: Well, I just started screaming my head off because at first like I was surprised. Like I wasn't... I didn't see the raccoon, I didn't know it was there until it was running and then it was on me. So like, I was surprised. So I was just screaming and then I was trying to get it off and I tried to kick it off and that didn't really work. But I was just in flip flops and like sweatpants. Like, I was not expecting to see a raccoon. I was not dressed for a raccoon attack, but I reached down and like I tried to grab it by the back of the neck, which is a bit hard to tell on a raccoon because they're so round, they're like little blobs. So you're never quite sure if you've got the back of their neck. And so like turned around. When I grabbed the back of its neck, I was trying to pull it off me because it was biting. And then it turned around and it bit my thumb and also wouldn't get off. So I kind of like throw and shake it off and then I backed away because obviously if you startle a wild animal and usually like you back away, it'll leave you alone. So, like, I backed up and, like, try to give it as much space as I could, but then it lunged at me again. And I have bites on both my legs and scratches around my knees. And I picked it up off me and ripped it off again and threw it away again. I was screaming this whole time like I was in pain and scared and I backed away more. And the third time one of my neighbours, who had heard me screaming came running and I was backed into a corner at this point trying to get away from it. And he was trying to pull me over the side of the fence and the raccoon came running at me again for the third time and was biting on me and I managed to rip it off a third time and throw it away. And it was actually coming at me for a fourth time when my neighbour picked up a rock and threw it and hit it and I was able with that to get on, get away from it. Like I actually have no idea how I would have gotten away if my neighbour hadn't shown up like I have eight bites on my leg, and my arm and my thumb like all together. And then there's scratches. The doctor counted like 16 punctures. Some of them are still bleeding. Like I've got bandages all over my legs and some of them still have blood coming through them. I mean, it hurts and I'm... So that's not fun. It's not easy to sleep. The most annoying one is I've got like a really good bite on my right hand, right at my thumb, which was when they were sticking me with needles right in the wounds. That one really freaking hurt. But otherwise, I'm just doing the penguin shuffle. Yeah, I'm just, you know, making my parents be all nice to me and bring me food and hugs and, you know, just milking it because it's not every day you get attacked by a raccoon out of nowhere.

CH: That was Grace Murphy of Halifax speaking with the CBC's Bob Murphy on "Maritime Noon". Currently the masked bully who mauled her is still on the loose.

[Music: Jazz]

Archives: Gordon Green

CH: He beat the odds and he did it by refusing to listen to the naysayers. Earlier in the show, we spoke with British long distance runner Ricky Lightfoot. On the weekend, he competed in the annual man versus horse race and won. It's only the third time since 1980 that a human has taken the crown. But in 2010, our former host, Carol Off spoke with the founder of the race, Gordon Green. Here's that interview from our archives.

GORDON GREEN: Most of the time, horses have won the race.

CAROL OFF: But doesn't it seem likely? I mean, if they have a race, isn't it probably predictable that a horse is going to win the race every time?

GORDON GREEN: Well, not necessarily, because if it's horses or something like that, then the horse can't cope with the heat quite the same as a human being over a long distance. So that's why the runner does get, does have a chance.

CAROL OFF: How close has it ever been between the runners, the people and the horses?

GORDON GREEN: Well, as I say, a runner has beat the horse on two occasions. And he's won by a few minutes.

CAROL OFF: By a few minutes?

GORDON GREEN: Yeah. Yeah.

CAROL OFF: And in this, the race you just did, how close was it?

GORDON GREEN: Well, this year the rider won by something like 9 minutes.

CAROL OFF: How long and how difficult is the race course?

GORDON GREEN: Well, it's 22 miles. So it's a hard course. It's very, very hilly. It has to cross rivers, some ravines. It's, you know, it's not an easy course.

CAROL OFF: How did this race get started in the first place?

GORDON GREEN: Well, it all started back in 1980. I, at that time, owned a local hotel and in the bar one night I was talking to the local huntsmen and I said that a runner would be faster than a horse over a long distance. He disagreed, and so we decided to put it to the test.

CAROL OFF: And that was the... So you had the first race in 1980?

GORDON GREEN: 1982 was the first race, yeah.

CAROL OFF: And how did that turn out?

GORDON GREEN: He won by about 30 minutes, I think.

CAROL OFF: Horses horse did?

GORDON GREEN: Yeah, the horse did.

CAROL OFF: If your theory is that human will win in a long course... or a human will do better in a long course than a horse. If you wanted to see more humans win, why not make the course longer?

GORDON GREEN: Well, I tried that quite a few years ago. I suggested that we should have two laps, but we couldn't get enough horses at that time to run that distance. So we never did run it. But I would like to do and maybe one day we shall. And I think that then you'll find that the runner will start to come into his own each year and probably beat the horse.

CAROL OFF: Now, this man versus horse competition is not the only one you have in your town. Do you want to tell us what the...

GORDON GREEN: We have a lot of different competitions. We have the world bog snorkelling championships every year.

CAROL OFF: The bog snorkelling competition. What... How do you do... How do you compete in bog snorkelling?

GORDON GREEN: Well, what we've done is we've dug a trench in a bog 60 yards long. And then the competitors have to swim through water and mud, using the snorkel and the fastest is the winner, 2 lengths.

CAROL OFF: Do the same people who do bog snorkelling race horses?

GORDON GREEN: So some do, I mean not really, but yeah, some do. Now we also do it for mountain bikes as well. We prepare a mountain bike, we fill it with lead and put water in the tires instead of air and the competitor has to wear a lead belt and so on. And then they can ride into six foot of water and breathe through a snorkel and they have about 20, 30 yards to do. And that's very difficult as well.

CAROL OFF: Yes, I would think so. It sounds like you have a very competitive town.

GORDON GREEN: Oh, we're very competitive. Yes, we are. Yeah, we do chariot racing here as well. We did a lot of things. Yeah.

CAROL OFF: Well, Gordon, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

GORDON GREEN: Thank you very much.

CAROL OFF: Bye bye.

GORDON GREEN: Thank you. Bye bye.

CH: From our archives, that was Gordon Green, the founder of the UK's annual Man Versus Horse Race. This year, a human won the race for only the third time in history. And if you missed our interview with that man earlier in the show, you can hear it on our website, cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Theme]

CH: And that's all we have for As It Happens for this Monday, June 13th. The news is next.

CC: As it happens, we'll be back tomorrow. I'm Catherine Cullen. Good night.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden. Good evening. Coming up, it's Ideas after the news.

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June 13, 2022 Episode Transcript

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