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The Current Transcript for June 8, 2022

Host: Nahlah Ayed

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MALE SPEAKER: We have evidence of a massive state sponsored forced labour scheme involving hundreds of thousands, over half a million of ethnic minorities. And it's directly about the picking of cotton in terms of global supply chains. Now, that's a game changer.

NAHLAH AYED: Your closet may be filled with clothes made with cotton picked using forced labour in China's Xinjiang province. The treatment of the weaker ethnic minority spurred the U.S. to ban the import of goods made with this cotton. Canada does have a blanket ban on goods made with forced labour, but advocates are concerned it is not being enforced. That's coming up in 30 minutes. Then:

FEMALE SPEAKER: The whole revolutionary spirit, like, was in our hearts. And in our minds.

NA: During the Arab Spring, Tunisians were excited about the apparent dawn of democracy in their country. Now, a decade later, that hope is being dashed as the president seeks to consolidate power. That's in an hour. But we begin in British Columbia with a new coroner's report warning that last summer's deadly heat wave will return and communities need to be ready. I'm Nahlah Ayed sitting in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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B.C. Coroners Service report highlights how unprepared province was to deal with extreme heat

Guests: Robyn Chan and Blair Feltmate

NA: Last summer, a deadly heat dome descended on British Columbia. For seven days straight, temperatures surpassed 40 degrees, killing 619 people in that province. Two thirds were seniors over 70 years old. Many lived alone and the majority died indoors. Now, a coroner's report released yesterday has detailed just how unprepared the province is to deal with extreme heat. John, who has a home in Ashcroft, in B.C.'s interior, told CBC Vancouver just how bad things got for him last year.

JOHN: The temperature range at my place last year was. -29 to plus 50. That's from a pro weather station I have on site. That's beyond the realm of possibility for anything we've considered in the past. I echo the coroner's questions about our dwellings, which are designed to keep us warm, not to keep us cool. My daughter nearly died of heatstroke. I'm concerned that as the years go by, as climate change increases all of these extremes and makes conditions more difficult, indeed, we are woefully unprepared.

NA: The report considered the contributing factors in the deaths, including the delay in the response from public agencies. Dr. Jatinder Baidwan, chief medical officer with the BC Coroners Service, acknowledged yesterday that people didn't take the heat warning as seriously as they should have. But he also suggested the deaths point to a need to change day to day living conditions.

JATINDER BAIDWAN: Essentially, if you think about it, people dying from heat, it's a failure the way that we live. It's not a failure of the health system. It's a failure of the way that we live. The more burden we put on the health system at times like this, is more of a surrogate of how badly we failed in the way that we're actually sort of planning our cities and our homes.

NA: In a few minutes, we'll hear from a climate adaptation expert about what some of those changes to our cities and homes might look like across the country. But first, Robyn Chan is chair of the Vancouver City Planning Commission. It's a volunteer advisory committee focussed on long term planning. Robyn, good morning.

ROBYN CHAN: Hi. Thanks for having me.

NA: Thanks for being with us. Take me back to B.C. during the heatwave last summer. You were there. What was life like for you and your family at the time?

RC: Well, we had heard that it was going to be hot and like many I think was pointed out, we didn't quite know what that meant. Hot here is usually about 27 degrees. I was at home with my six week old baby and my three year old and my husband, and at first we tried to tough it out in our apartment, in our little air conditioning unit, but we quickly, you know, weren't able to sleep. We were all trying to cram into the same room so that we could stay cool. So we actually ended up going to a hotel for the worst two days. My daughter's face and chest were just covered in heat rash because she was too young to sweat. And we were really worried that something bad would happen if we didn't take kind of extreme measures to cool off.

NA: And that is a very lucky thing to be able to do. I'm wondering what people were told to do to stay cool. Those who couldn't go to a hotel.

RC: We had the cooling centres, you know that were around the city at community centres and libraries. There was messaging around going to the beach or, you know, putting cool cloths on you, having showers. But I live in a non-profit housing building and we actually didn't get any communication until after the heat was finished with things that we could have done. So I would say that messaging was sporadic and inconsistent.

NA: The Corners report seeks to learn from what went wrong in that episode and try to put in place measures to prevent a repeat. What are some of the key recommendations that struck you in that report?

RC: Well, their first one, you know, is coordinated communication from the province and other health agencies. And I think obviously that's very important. Putting in alerts to phones and things like that. But that's really just one basic step that needs to be done. There's very little else within the report about actual, tangible things that will happen for this year. There's talk about more consultation and long range policy changes, but very little about what will happen if there is extreme heat again this summer, which is very disappointing.

NA: It must also be surprising.

RC: Yes. I think after a year after, you know, the deadliest climate event that the country has ever seen, I was really hoping to see a lot more tangible action and also a lot more engagement already having been done to learn from the communities that were really impacted.

NA: As you mentioned, the report does call for a province wide alert system that would notify people when something like this was coming. I'm just wondering how effective you think such a measure would be in preventing the kinds of deaths and injuries we saw last year?

RC: I think it's a good step to alert public service providers and non-profit organizations that can reach out to their communities and things like that. But I think the first alert starts at 29 degrees and then there's a second alert that 34, 35 degrees. You know, at that point, most people who can, have exhausted all of the cooling tools that they have, you know, their air conditioners are out, the fans are on, and there's not much more at that point that they can do. So another alert that it's even hotter isn't necessarily going to help. What really needs to happen is actions that will help cool people at home and keep them safe at home, which is where most of the people unfortunately passed away.

NA: So let's talk about that. What do you think some of those measures could have been for those people who are at home in need of cooling immediately?

RC: Yesterday, it was mentioned to come up with ways to bring people to the cooling centres, which I think is one step for sure. You know, asking seniors who are home alone to get on a bus or to walk to a cooling station ten, 12 blocks in a heat wave is, you know, not really good public policy. So, we really need to look at what came out of the report, that people died at home and they died alone, that they died without fans or air conditioners. And then put in place measures that can get people, fans and air conditioners to keep them cool during these times.

NA: So are you talking about a public funding campaign then?

RC: Yes. I think, you know, there's a recommendation in the report to look at assigning air conditioners as a medical assisted advice, which is a programme that already exists in the province, that can provide people with, you know, wheelchairs and other medical devices to include air conditioners and other cooling devices on that list. And then it becomes a matter of people still having to apply, which is a barrier, but there's an easily accessible and fundable programme that already exists that could get people what they need.

NA: As you mentioned, the majority of those who died were seniors. Yesterday, B.C. seniors advocate Isabelle MacKenzie spoke to the CBC ahead of the report's release. Here's a little bit of what she had to say.

ISABELLE MACKENZIE: We needed a plan to take people who were in rooms that were too hot, frankly, and either cool that room down by bringing in they call it mechanical ventilation, but basically an air conditioner or taking that person out of the room and having effectively an evacuation plan like we would have for floods or fires. That's what we're going to need in extreme heat emergencies. So you have to have a plan for when the temperatures move beyond uncomfortable and move into deadly for certain parts of the population.

NA: What do you think of her point? That extreme heat events will need a better evacuation plan to help vulnerable people like seniors stay safe?

RC: I think that's a great idea. And I think that that's not included in the report is an oversight and an example of where engagement should have been done with the communities that were most impacted. And I know, you know, we went through wildfires and flooding last year and saw what that kind of response can look like.

NA: What would you ultimately, if you were sitting there with the people writing this report, what would have been one or two recommendations you would have put right off the top that aren't included right now?

RC: I think number one is that the money does exist. And what's lacking is the political will. And so what are the highest impact, quickest things to do that will save people's lives. So, again, like, like we're saying, you know, bringing people those cooling measures will cost money. But that's what needs to happen. The problem is that people are too hot. How do we cool them down? That's not even in this report. And I think deeper engagement and an equity lens onto who was impacted and how are we getting the information from them about what would have kept them safe?

NA: Last thing is yesterday Mike Farnworth, BC's Minister of Public Safety, released a statement that read in part: "The province is committed to keeping all British Columbians safe during heat events and we are working to do so by reviewing and bolstering our response systems". Just in the last few seconds we have here, how confident Robyn, are you that B.C. will actually be better prepared for the next extreme heat event, which could happen this summer?

RC: Yes, I would say that I'm not very optimistic, given, again, that there are no short term actions and we could see heat again, you know, next month. I think it's telling that there has been very little public money spent on this so far or spent on, say, the city of Lytton, which burned down in another climate event last year. But we managed to find the money and the will and the crews to fix the [inaudible] Highway, which was damaged in another climate event. So it's clear where the money and the priorities are right now. And unfortunately, I don't feel like it's on people's safety and well-being.

NA: Robyn, thank you so much.

RC: Thank you.

NA: Robyn Chan is chair of the Vancouver City Planning Commission, a volunteer advisory committee focussed on long term planning. My next guest says BC's experience last summer is just a preview of what communities across Canada can expect in the years to come. Blair Feltmate is head of the Intact Centre on Climate Adaptation at the University of Waterloo. Blair, Good morning.

BLAIR FELTMATE: Good morning.

NA: How useful are the recommendations that the B.C. coroner's making for any community in Canada, not just in B.C., that might be faced with similar extreme heat events?

BF: I think they're... If we enact the measures laid out, it would be very useful not just for British Columbia or, you know, major cities in British Columbia, but also for provinces and cities across the country. So better emergency services capacity, that's good. A better alert system, that's good. Systems put in place to help to identify where the most vulnerable people are in society and programmes set up to check on them on a regular basis, that's good. And then longer term strategies to be implemented to help alleviate the stress from extreme heat. If we can operationalize this stuff and do so rapidly, that would be useful not just for British Columbia, but frankly, you know... This extreme event of heat that caused this number of deaths last summer in British Columbia that could have just as easily been we could have been talking about Toronto or Montreal or Winnipeg, it could hit anywhere.

NA: Yeah. And you've actually done projections to kind of look at the risk in other places and just how extreme heat is going to affect communities right across Canada. What's your sense? How bad is it going to get across Canada?

BF: Well, it's going to get worse, for sure. And I'm not guessing about this. The climate change is here to stay. Period. Climate change is irreversible. We're not going backwards. Efforts to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions can slow down the rate of climate change. But climate change is going to continue, period. So people have to understand or accept that reality. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to slow down the rate of change by mitigating greenhouse gas emissions. But we need to learn to adapt to extreme weather risk, whether it's heat, floods or fires.

NA: So it's going to get bad. But you've done actual projections. What are the specifics?

BF: On average for over the next 30 years maximum daily temperatures for cities throughout southern Canada are going to increase about five degrees Celsius beyond the current maximum daily temperatures we realize. And the number of days per summer that are in excess of 30 degrees Celsius. They're going to double or triple over the next 30 years. So for example, right now, Kamloops, it tops out more or less at maximum daily temperature around 37 degrees Celsius by 2050. That will go to 41 to 42 degrees Celsius. The days, the number of days above 30 degrees Celsius in Kamloops right now. Per summer, it's about 27 days per summer. That's going to go by 2050 to about 65 days. And maybe just one more city for Toronto. Right now, the temperature maxes out at about 37 degrees Celsius. By 2050 that will go to 40 to 41 degrees Celsius, about 15 to 20 days per summer, in excess of 30 degrees Celsius right now. And that's going to go to 55 days. So the heat is coming.

NA: It is coming. And underlies the need for solutions. And one of the big issues in B.C., as you know, is access to cooling and air conditioning in the home. How much of a challenge is that in other parts of the country, as you say, who are going to be facing similar events?

BF: It's... You could repeat pretty much anything we've been talking about for British Columbia and the cities in British Columbia. The same story can be had, whether you're talking about Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, Winnipeg, right across the country. And yeah, so there's nothing unique about British Columbia in this regard.

NA: Yeah. So how useful would an alert system be? As you heard earlier, they are including that in the BC's report. Where people sort of get warnings via broadcasters to their phones about extreme heat. Is that helpful at all?

BF: Yes. No, we need that because if we've done all the other preparatory work, for example, identifying where the most vulnerable in the population are the elderly people living alone with the heat. Once we've mapped that out and we've got people in charge of checking on them during the heat events, when we have the heat alert, that can trigger the response to say, now we have the action plan in place to check on these people during this extreme event on a daily basis to make sure they are okay. They're in good shape. For people with pre-existing health conditions that may be out in somewhere where they're exposed to heat, this could give them a warning to get inside or get somewhere cool. So they're not vulnerable to the extreme event. So the heat alert system is a very useful thing to have.

NA: And what about city planning? How good a job have government... Canadian governments overall done in actually integrating the reality of the extreme heat that you're talking about that's in our future into city planning?

BF: We have not done a very good job at all. At the city level we need things like, for example, more effort placed on retaining tree canopy within cities, shade areas within cities. We can do things that it's so simple that it's laughable that it hasn't been done, but we should do nonetheless. Anybody who flies to a city, anywhere you look down on the factories and the apartment buildings and so forth, you see all the roofs are black, basically black tar. When sunlight hits that black tar, only about 20% of that energy reflects back up into space. And most of the remaining energy stays in the system, causing heating just by painting roofs from the dark surface they currently have to white. When sunlight hits a white surface, about 80% of that energy reflects back into space and therefore doesn't contribute to the heating effect. So, that's a good action.

NA: Any cities doing that right now?

BF: Say that again?

NA: Any cities doing that right now?

BF: No or if so, to a very, very limited extent.

NA: We've talked about just briefly about what governments should be doing, and that seems like a very simple solution to begin with anyway. As we head into summer, I'm wondering what your advice is for individuals who might find themselves in the midst of an extreme heat event. How can they stay safe but also help those around them?

BF: Well, we need systems set up to help those that are most vulnerable in the population. We need a system set up now to have somebody looking in on those individuals. Those individuals, I believe as almost as a human right now, we need to supply them with or give them the capacity either through a subsidy or outright gift. They should have access to air conditioning, a small air conditioning unit for their apartment building, wherever they may be. You know, we would not expect people to get through the winter with no heat. We should similarly think about the fact during extreme heat in the summer, we should not expect them to sit in there without a cooling capacity. So we really have to mobilise on the recommendations that have come out in B.C. over just the last few days. There's nothing wrong with any of the ideas. The question is how rapidly we can operationalize all this stuff and we really cannot drop the ball in that regard.

NA: Blair, thank you so much for your time.

BF: You're certainly welcome.

NA: Blair Feltmate is the head of the Intact Centre on Climate Adaptation at the University of Waterloo. The CBC News is next. Then:

MALE SPEAKER: The evidence suggests that China's cotton crop, which makes up a fifth of the world's total supply, could be far more dependent on forced labour than was previously thought.

NA: That forced labour would primarily be work by the weaker minority. We'll look at what Canada and the U.S. are doing to prevent those products from getting into our homes and where those efforts are falling short. I'm Nahlah Ayed and you're listening to The Current.

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Canada’s blanket forced labour law — and concerns it’s not being enforced

Guests: Bob Kirke, William Pellerin and Seamus O’Regan

NA: Hello. I'm Nahlah Ayed and you're listening to The Current.

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NA: Still to come, Tunisia was the birthplace of the Arab Spring. Now, more than a decade later, the country's hopes for democracy are slipping away. But first, how China's forced labour cotton industry is making its way into your closet.

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NA: In two weeks, the United States will begin blocking all products coming in from Xinjiang, China, unless importers can prove their goods are not made by forced labour. North Americans get a lot of stuff from Xinjiang, everything from cotton and clothes to tomato paste and solar panels. It is also home to the Uyghurs, China's Muslim minority, and there is growing evidence of human rights abuses against them, including forced labour camps. Turnisa Matsedik-Qira is with the Canadian Multifaith Initiative for Uyghur Rights. She has family in the Xinjiang region.

TURNISA MATSEDIK-QIRA: People in the factory. It's like a prison, like. And they at least have to work 12 to 16 hours per day. They work under the surveillance all the time. Sometimes they got paid nothing. Sometimes they got paid very little. And they have not enough food, not enough nutrition.

NA: Canada has a law in place brought in in 2020, which makes the import of goods with connections to forced labour illegal. Since then, only one suspected shipment has been barred from entering the country, but that shipment was eventually released. Now, with a tougher law in the U.S., advocates worry more of those goods will make their way into Canada. Bob Kirke is the executive director of the Canadian Apparel Federation, an organization that helps clothing companies navigate new laws and regulations. Bob Kirke, Good morning.

BOB KIRKE: Good morning.

NA: First of all, the companies that you deal with, where are their goods mostly made?

BK: If you're talking about apparel, generally, about a third of our imports come from China, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Cambodia, more or less in that order.

NA: And right now, we're talking about Xinjiang because of the U.S. law that's coming into force. But what responsibility do these companies that you deal with have under Canada's forced labour law to ensure that their imports are legal?

BK: Well, first of all, companies don't source product in Xinjiang the challenge of the forced labour policy area is that the cotton produced in Xinjiang represents over 20% of the world's cotton supply, and that cotton goes into the global supply of cotton and it finds its way into all sorts of other production done anywhere in the world. So the real challenge is figuring out where your raw material is from, and that's generally not been the priority of apparel companies. They understand factories. They should understand the factories in which their garments are produced. They may have some contact with the textile supplier, but maybe not. So we're being asked to look much deeper into our supply chain. And that historically has not been the case. People are trying to catch up. They're trying to put policies in place that govern what kind of textiles go into their production. And it's a real challenge.

NA: But how is it a challenge practically? What is it that has changed for these companies in terms of coming into, you know, actually complying with this law?

BK: Well, the vast majority of cotton grown in the world is identical. It's broadly identical. There are some companies that are claiming they can genetically track that cotton, but it hasn't been tracked. Now, you might want to say, look, going forward, these things have to be done. And there's lots of technologies are coming on screen, whether they'll have traction or not, that's another issue. But you have a situation where cotton is cotton. It goes into the ginning process. It goes into the yarn production process and fabric production process. And it's undifferentiated.

NA: Sure.

BK: Or historically it has been. So what people are asking and again, we don't... There's no production of apparel in Xinjiang that comes to Canada, as far as I know. It's not the actual garments that we import. It's the raw materials that are in them. And as I said, whether it's through technology or whether it's simply through chain of custody kind of requirements, people are going to put in place systems that keep that cotton out of their goods. But it has not been the case previously.

NA: So when a company... Just so I'm clear, when a company is producing, say, a line of T-shirts abroad, how hard would it be to make sure 100% that those T-shirts have no connection to forced labour?

BK: Well, there are companies that do that today. Very simply, they own the yarn spinning mill. They own the knitting. They own the factories where the goods are made. But that's one business model. There are other companies that are doing it on a much more diverse basis. They use any number of factories, and those factories use any number of textile suppliers. So in a practical term, if you have a very tight supply chain, as some people do, it's easy or it's manageable. If you're in a supply chain where you're using multiple factories because your lines change, your production changes year to year, different materials, different fibres, then it's more challenging. And but people are doing it. Okay, they're... You mentioned the U.S. law that's coming into place in a couple of weeks. And certainly the U.S. government had promised much more dialogue, I think, around some of the provisions, because once you get into the you know, is there any, absolutely any forced labour in a product, whether it's clothing or tomato juice? These are hard things to prove. I think we think that supply chains are simple and sort of sequential. But really what you have is wide networks of companies where some of those inputs get into your product. So companies, to your point, are trying to close that down, try to say wait a second, we need to use this cotton. So, for example, there's a growth in U.S. exports of cotton because they do trace the bales. Okay. So you'll find exporting U.S. cotton to China for production in China for North American clients. So, again, companies are going to find different ways to do that.

NA: Sure.

BK: I do want to say, if I could just add one thing, that this is a big company solution. You know, the biggest companies, the biggest brands will navigate this. And there is a challenge for smaller companies because they don't have leverage in their supply chain. So if they go to their fabric mill and say, well, we want you to guarantee that there's no Xinjiang cotton... They may have been working with that mill for ten years and the mill will say, look, we don't have that supply chain. You want that, go somewhere else. And that's a real challenge.

NA: One last quick question to you. In the few seconds that we have left with you is, could goods that are being banned in the U.S. under this rule that's coming up, this law that's coming up end up in Canada as a result?

BK: Well, certainly they can be exported from the United States. Now, I do believe on practical terms, we're building up a public case around those shipments, and they're much more transparent system in the United States. So you will see that this is clear. And I would say any importer bringing those goods into Canada runs the risk of them being seized.

NA: Sure.

BK: But technically, yes, they could be imported here, but they would be subject to the same restrictions.

NA: Thank you very much for talking with us.

BK: Thank you.

NA: Bob Kirke is the executive director of the Canadian Apparel Federation. In addition to Canada's current law, there is a private member's bill that has passed in the Senate that puts the onus on companies globally, not just those importing from Xinjiang, to show what they're doing to stop forced labour in their supply chain. But even with stiffer laws, there's concern about enforcement. William Pellerin is a lawyer in Ottawa with a focus on Canada's laws surrounding forced labour imports. Good morning, William.

WILLIAM PELLERIN: Good morning, Nahlah. How are you?

NA: Great. How effective do you think Canada's current law is at keeping out goods that are made by forced labour?

WP: I think the law has the potential... The law that we currently have on the books has the potential to be effective. It's a hard one to enforce. And that's why, as you mentioned, there has been very little enforcement activity, if any at all. But I think it's about building the evidence in the background and empowering the Canada Border Services Agency to actually make those enforcement actions.

NA: Can we drill down on the details of that? Why is it hard to actually implement? Why is it hard to enforce?

WP: Well, for one thing, you know the law as it stands right now, let me start... The goods are not going to be stamped or marked in any way, of course. And that goes without saying as being a product of forced labour. So when the Canada Border Services Agency has the goods or you import the goods and your B3 customs form is going to label it as a T-shirt, as a hammer, as a barbecue. It's not going to label that good as a product of forced labour. And so the question then becomes what information does the Canada Border Services Agency have to halt those goods, to detain them or otherwise? And so they're relying on third parties. And one of those third parties is Employment and... ESDC, Employment Services and Development Canada and... and Social Development Canada. Sorry. And so they're relying on reports from, from ESDC or tips from the public, and that's not always forthcoming or the best possible evidence.

NA: So what could actually change if this new private member's bill that we mentioned actually comes into law? How could that change things?

WP: I think the private member's bill creates an obligation on Canadian companies, medium and large companies, to produce annual reports and make those reports public. And so basically what it says is you have to tell us everything that you're doing to address forced labour in your supply chains, and you have to detail your supply chains. And everyone will be able to look up these reports on the companies websites. And I think that will shed a lot of light and empower consumers and through the media to look at what companies are doing and pick the ones that they want to purchase from. It's not a diligent standard. And what I mean by that is the new bill does not tell companies how they must act or what they must do specifically. It simply says, tell us what it is that you are doing.

NA: Is that a flaw in your eyes?

WP: I think it's one approach. I don't know if it's a flaw. I think, you know, the private member's bill is done that way. I think in the end, you know, the government is also looking at a second bill. And I think we're going to be hearing from Minister O'Regan later, and we'll be able to see what the government is considering. Ultimately, I think imposing a diligent standard can be a one size fits all approach that may not necessarily work. So I think that this bill is kind of the first step in the chain.

NA: Let me ask you what I asked Bob as well. What do you think the impact will be of this U.S. law, the new U.S. law, on the goods that are arriving in Canada? Could we see a diversion of certain kinds of goods here?

WP: Yeah. So the U.S. approach is very different than the Canadian one. It's really kind of run fast and break things. And there's some, you know, benefit to that. And some folks think that that's the right approach in the circumstances. The problem, of course, is the thing that you might break is global supply chains. And we've already had tons and tons of enforcement actions that have resulted in the supply chains disintegrating a little bit in the United States on this specific issue, because the United States has been taking actions, numerous actions, something like 1300 enforcement actions even before this bill has come into place. So things are about to get much more difficult at the border. Not to say that it isn't already.

NA: And when you look at the border, how confident are you that the Canada Border Services is actually equipped to investigate and catch goods that may be running afoul of the law?

WP: I think that's why Canada has been taking a cautious approach. So not be run fast and break things, but really being on the sidelines and learning from global lessons from which countries have done what and then figuring out what has worked. And I think Canada is now stepping off the sidelines and ready to take action with them.

NA: So ultimately, what is it that you think... What are the holes that need to be plugged at the moment, so to speak? What do you want to see the Canadian government do to combat forced labour goods coming into this country?

WP: I think that ultimately. You know, no one wants forced labour in their supply chain. No. No one is okay with this. I speak with companies regularly who are trying to figure this out. And as Mr. Kirke said, particularly on the smaller to medium sized companies that don't have full control of their supply chain and by commodity type inputs that may have been 11 or 12 steps up the chain and have no ability to do that. So I think that the pressure is definitely on the companies to do their diligence, to understand their supply chain, to track, to get as much as they can in with their suppliers and in their contracts and perform risk audits as much as possible.

NA: William, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

WP: Thank you. My pleasure.

NA: William Pellerin is a lawyer in Ottawa. Now, Canada's minister of Labour, Seamus O'Regan, has been listening in. Minister, good morning.

SEAMUS OREGAN: Good to hear your voice.

NA: You as well. Why haven't any shipments been barred by the Canadian Border Services Agency from entering Canada under the new forced labour law? Surely it's not because there have been none connected to forced labour.

SO: I mean, that's a question I would frankly, I would leave to the minister of Public Safety. That's not to defer. It is because, frankly, I want... I think it's very important that we clarify a point, a process that I think it's very important to mention that we're talking about a private member's Bill, Bill S211 that came from the Senate preceding that, our party, the Liberal Party, when we formed government, said we want to take this on, we want to take on the issue of forced labour. And I said that we would be passing legislation. In effect, what happened last week is NDP's voted unanimously in support of that bill, of the Senate bill. And by doing that and sending it for second reading, what I and the government said was, look, this is a good starting point. Let's go with this. So I just want to clarify, there's no second bill coming down the pipe that, you know, would supersede this one. We right now are taking this to committee to figure out how we can strengthen it by having, you know, I mean, listening to frankly, listening to Bob and to William in the past few minutes has been instructive for me. And I'm sure they and if not them, then many others are going to be speaking to the committee to answer some of those questions about where we are and what we've learnt. As I think, as William put it, we've been on the sidelines trying to pick up best practice, but now is the time to act and I think it's very telling that it was unanimous in the House of Commons. Every party, every member of Parliament, because we're hearing this from our constituents, people are aware of this now and they want us to do something.

NA: Absolutely. And they also want to understand the flaws in the current system. I think it still bears explanation and to understand why it is, it's been difficult for the CBSA to actually, you know, to actually apprehend a single shipment. Reports show that 1400 shipments were stopped in the U.S. even before this law is coming into force.

SO: Well, I think it's important to mention, too, that the United States has had laws on the books, on forced labour since 1919. The parts of the CUSMA of the Canadian U.S. Mexican trade agreement dealing with forced labour only came into effect very recently. So this is still very, very much a work in progress. And I think that the complications involved with it were eloquently put forward by Bob.

NA: From what William Pellerin described, the onus falls on the importer to declare it has used forced labour under the current laws that we have here in Canada. How did your government determine this was the best way to regulate these goods?

SO: Well, I think there are, you know, there are accountability issues. I mean, first of all, I don't mean to malign companies at all. I thought that William put it well as well by saying, you know, most companies do want to eradicate. And in fact, I think almost all companies do want to eradicate forced labour from their supply chains. I think that they have to be given the benefit of the doubt. What mechanisms can we put in place to help them do that? How can I now be more constructive in figuring that out? But I think also, you know, there are responsibilities if you're bringing products into this country for the company and for the importer to have some knowledge of that. And I think that, you know, the onus is on the government, therefore, to meet them halfway and to make that process as easily as we can make it. You know, there are all sorts of concerns about making sure that, you know, we do this as smoothly as possible. But I think, as I said, I think our constituents across the country have spoken. They want something done about this. And I'm determined to do it.

NA: On June 21st. As we've mentioned, the U.S. will seize any goods coming into their country from China's Xinjiang region until the importer can actually prove it has no connections to forced labour. So there's this kind of, you know, there's a reverse of the burden of proof, effectively making companies guilty until proven innocent. Are you considering doing something like that, that approach?

SO: Well... Not to give sweeping national characterizations, but I don't think that, you know, Canada is in the business of running fast and breaking things. It's not how we do things. And I think that William put it better by saying, you know, we do tend to sit sometimes and take note of what others are doing and then act. And I think that that's going to be the committee's work. Listen, I'm not going to presume that the committee's work because I used to be a member of a committee on heritage, actually. And I don't want ministers to tell me what I should and shouldn't be looking into. I don't mind floating my own ideas, but I'll leave it to them. They are going to take the time that's needed in order to get this right. And, you know, that's a committee that's made up of all parties in the House of Commons. So I think that that's going to be... I think it's going to be a very instructive exercise.

NA: What is your response to the concern that the goods the U.S. is going to be banning will end up right here in Canada?

SO: Well, I think, you know, it's certainly... There was an urgency for us to do this before. I mean, there was an urgency on me when I became Minister of Labour. It was in my mandate letter. It's something that we committed to. And I can tell you in our caucus, you know, and in talking to members of Parliament, it was front and centre. That is something that MPs have brought up to me that this is what they wanted me to start working on as a priority. I was quite pleased to, you know, when we decided that look S211 coming from the Senate, why be duplicative? Why do it again? Why have our own bill when this bill seemed to be a very, very good start, that, you know, the crux of it was there, but there were things that we could strengthen. And when we did that, to have that passed unanimously was, you know, said a lot to me. And I'm... You know, I've been working with members of other parties to make sure that we, you know, we got there. But, you know, I think that there's a great willingness to get this done. All that to say that now, you know, there's an even... a more added urgency, perhaps, when your biggest trading partner decides it wants to take action as well. And in effect, as you say, June 21st, you know, that will come into play. So I think, you know, it's... We want to move. I think the time for us sitting on the sidelines now is over. And I think that we want to act on this. And certainly the Americans moving in this direction means that we do want to move quickly. AWe want to move effectively but quickly.

NA: We heard earlier from Turnisa Matsedik-Qira, at the start of this discussion. She is a Uyghur with the Canadian multifaith initiative for Uyghur rights. She also had this to say.

TURNISA MATSEDIK-QIRA: I want them to do is to stop importing anything related to forced labour. For example cotton product and a lot of the labour we already provide to the Canadian government. I'm afraid when the Canadian government takes action, when the whole international community takes action, I am thinking is there any Uyghurs left.

NA: What do you say to her, Minister and her worry that by the time there is action on this, there won't be any Uyghurs left?

SO: Well, those are very chilling words from somebody who knows that situation a heck of a lot better than me. It certainly adds more urgency to this. There's no question. And I would hope, although, again, I'm not in the business of telling the committee what to do and whom they should invite to appear. But she sounds to me like somebody that all MPs need to hear from.

NA: Last thing, Minister, you mentioned that there's, you know, this bill before parliament related to forced labour and the exploitation of child workers abroad. If it is passed, what will it require companies to do that's not in place right now?

SO: I don't know. And I mean that with all humility.

NA: What do you want it to do?

SO: Well, I mean, I think, again, if members of the committee are listening, I want this to be instructive. I really do believe in the autonomy of the committees. But I will say that, you know, taking it a step beyond perhaps transparency. And I think transparency is a very good first step. And maybe taking it to due diligence where, you know, well, what is the company are going to do about it and they must do something about it? What form does that take? How does that look? I don't know. I think that the committee is going to be animated, and I think it's going to hear some from excellent witnesses. And I think that we will end up with a substantial and effective piece of legislation to stop forced labour from entering our supply chains.

NA: Minister, thank you very much for your time.

SO: Thank you.

NA: Thank you. Seamus O'Regan is Canada's minister of Labour. Coming up after your regional update, the Arab Spring began in Tunisia. A fierce push for democracy spilt over to surrounding countries. Now, more than a decade later, Tunisia is once again facing a leader seeking to consolidate power. When we return, where this leaves Tunisia and the legacy of the Spring. I'm Nahlah Ayed and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

The Tunisian president seeks to consolidate power a decade after Arab Spring

Guests: Aya Riahi and Ghaya ben Mbarek

NA: I'm Nahlah Ayed and you're listening to The Current.

[SOUNDCLIP: Crowds chanting]

NA: About 11 years after the Arab Spring, Tunisia is fighting to save its democracy. What began as a move to rid Tunisian politics of corruption morphed into a full blown political crisis last July. Now Tunisia is back to one man rule, this time by the country's latest president, Kais Saied. All three branches of government are now under his control and a new constitution is in the works. Many Tunisians worry the country is losing all the progress it made during 2011's deadly uprising. Aya Riahi is an anti-corruption activist. She works with the NGO, I-Watch. It's a youth driven organization born out of the Arab Spring that investigates corruption. We've reached her in Tunisia's capital, Tunis. Hello.

AYA RIAHI: Hello. Thank you for the invitation.

NA: Thank you for being with us. I wonder if you could take us all the way back to the time before the uprising. Can you tell me what life was like for you and your family?

AYA RIAHI: Oh. So by then I was still young. But I remember that my family, they were like very, very careful and let's say fearful while talking about politics, for example. So we... I like when I was raised, like very young, I was 13 years old during the revolution. So it was like a taboo. So we did not talk about anything. We did not even know the name of the Prime Minister, for example. So it was... like speaking about politics, it was a taboo. And then the revolution, like...

NA: And the uprising came. Yeah, the uprising came. Take us to that night. Take us to the night of the protests when they first started. What was it like for you?

AYA RIAHI: It was very strange and also very, very scary as like we were child still, like I was a teenager, my sister and brother were younger than me and we were like alone with our mother for a few days. And then when the protests became like more and more dangerous, my dad took us to our grandmother's house and we haven't seen them after that. So it was very, very disturbing for us as a family. We haven't figured out what's going on, what's going to happen, how it's going to end.

NA: Was there any hope mixed into any of that?

AYA RIAHI: Yes. And it was at the same time, we're not like looking for the freedom that we were aiming, but mainly most of the people were like aiming at having a better life economically and socially speaking. So people were asking for work and for justice, like social justice, let's say. And then what happened is that we woke up to find out that Bin Ali flew the country...

NA: The former President?

AYA RIAHI: And I remember we were like... Yes. And I remember we were... like very young and we were, let's say, imitating or reacting the scenes of the protesters at home. So we were like [chanting slogan] And that was the slogan that was raised against Bin Ali in the streets.

NA: Meaning leave?

AYA RIAHI: Yes, leave. Leave the country. Leave the power. And that like the whole thing, the whole revolutionary spirit, like, was in our hearts. And in our minds.

NA: I want to bring in another person to this conversation now. Ghaya ben Mbarek is a journalist for the independent news site, Meshkal. She's also in Tunis. Ghaya, hello.

GHAYA BEN MBAREK: Hello, Nahlah.

NA: There was a lot of optimism, as Aya has mentioned, there was a lot of optimism that the Arab Spring could bring in democratic change that people were seeking for so long. So how has Tunisia found itself in the position where the president today has consolidated so much power?

GHAYA BEN MBAREK: Well, unfortunately, I have to agree with what Aya was saying first of all. Like when people took to the streets in 2010, 2011, most of the demands were actually socio economic, were about work, dignity, social justice, people just wanting to have like basic rights to have regular life for them and their children. And at the same time, there were calls for freedom and there were calls for some sort of democracy. But the word like came in later. To be honest, as much as I'd like to remember it myself, we find ourselves in a situation where, like we have a president unfortunately taking over power and seizing all three branches of the government is definitely due to an accumulation of like misfortune and of failures. All over the past 11 years. The 11 years post the 2010/2011 uprising. The government... successive governments, did not succeed in meeting the calls and the needs and the demands of the street of the people, did not manage to make Tunisians lives better and actually allow people to live in prosperity. And we're not even talking about prosperity. You were talking about like basic, basic needs for people, for their families. When July 25th took place, we were definitely in a political storm. The country was crippling under the impact of the health crisis of the COVID-19 crisis, deaths rate was like skyrocketing at that point. People were literally dying in front of hospital, in the streets, in different cities of the country. And people saw the Prime Minister and the Acting of Parliament at that point as the core issue of the problem. The President and as now many see it, took advantage of that political stalemate and took advantage of the fact that he was popularly voted and people saw him as... Since he was actually an outsider of the political scene. He did not have anybody. And he, like, had the reputation of being this amazing university law professor, this well-respected... A lot of people saw him as an honest man. So when he acted like that on July 25th, people thought, okay, yeah, let's... We're going to support him. He had popular... There was a popular response in the street. But over the past ten months, there has been certainly diminishing support as like not only his political opponents are, not only people who are active like in the political scene in Tunisia are starting to doubt his capacity.

NA: Let me bring Aya back in here. I want to hear directly from you. What concerns you most about what you've seen President Saied done so far? What is it that worries you?

AYA RIAHI: A lot of things, actually, because during the past 11 years, we've been witnessing the democratic transition and we've been like dreaming of having all of these institutions, even though a lot of corruption, a lot of violence, let's say a bad governance on different levels. But we had that fight and we were like, we're not going to lose these institutions. We're not going to lose these freedoms and these liberties that people died for. So we had a dream and. Let me say, like we're seeing it as like we're waking up or something like that and that's horrible. That's horrible. And the idea is that I agree. I totally agree with Ghaya because some people see Kais Saied as a person of integrity. And corruption has been a very, very big concern of people, Tunisian people since 2011, because we think it's the source of the whole... The problems that we had in Tunisia.

NA: You also say and you began... We began this conversation talking about the source of the protests to begin with, which was economic, it was social. So I'm curious if both of you, maybe Ghaya, to begin with, can describe to me just how expensive life has been for Tunisians over the last several years. Has anything improved on the economic front?

GHAYA BEN MBAREK: Unfortunately, no, because life expenses have been like doubling and tripling every year, like unemployment rates have been increasing. And we... It is fair to say that we no longer have, like, middle class families. Everybody is struggling to make ends meet every single day. We have food prices, gas prices, rent, housing prices. The students are struggling to continue their studies and move, like, for example, from their original, like town of birth to the capital, or move to other cities. This struggle that you could actually see in the street, you could actually see it when you go to the markets and you talk to people there and tell them, oh, what did you buy today? And you only find out that they just like bought some random vegetables and the money that they had on them was not enough for them to fill that basket. And, for example, buy some chicken or some meat. We don't even talk about people like buying meat and bringing it back to their homes. This is the different... The difference that we're seeing. And in recent days, and especially with the war in Ukraine and ongoing from now, there have been very much shortages in basic materials in like cooking oil and stuff. And this is ongoing. And is going to be becoming much worse with the country in crisis in Ukraine. So we need like to know these aspects specifically in order for us to actually make an illustration of what's going on politically in Tunisia at the moment.

NA: And Aya going back to your point that again, that the underlying factor here is corruption. You are, you know, you've worked in this area for a very long time. How has all of this, these changes and these power grabs, have they all impacted your ability to do your work as a corruption investigator?

AYA RIAHI: We'll actually working on corruption is very, very critical in Tunisia because it's very politically sensitive. So, like usually when while working with I-Watch, they always accuse us of being a political party. And this is because corruption is very related to politics on multiple levels. So when you fight corruption, you give the impression that you are doing politics. And this actually has been a very big fight for us as I-Watch. And also, after the special exceptional measures taken by the president, like not much things changed except how the judiciary power is dealing with corruption cases. So we've been always saying that it's the very weak part of the chain in the fight against corruption, because impunity cannot solve the problem. So I can do a long investigation. I can work on the file for months or maybe years, and then I file a lawsuit. I take it to the justice, and nothing happens because it takes too long to be investigated to take a final decision by the court.

NA: Yeah.

AYA RIAHI: So impunity. It encourages corrupt to do more corruption to be more corrupt because there is no way to be punished.

NA: We only have about half a minute here, Ghaya. But I wonder, given everything we've heard from the two of you, whether you can paint a very brief picture of where things go from here for Tunisia, for the people of Tunisia. Are you hopeful?

GHAYA BEN MBAREK: Personally, I'm also... part of my work, I feel like the image is pretty bleak at this point, and definitely the turning point is going to be the upcoming July 25th. And the upcoming referendum from that point we'll be seeing where the country is going to be going. Also, the negotiations with the IMF about a loan in order to try to see what the situation is. These negotiations that have stopped and also just trying to see whether the government is actually going to be able to apply what it's calling as a reform programme. For me, I'm just trying to no longer not wait and see, but definitely there's a bleak hope at this point.

NA: Ghaya ben Mbarek and Aya Riahi, thanks to you both.

GHAYA BEN MBAREK: Thank you. Nahla.

NA: Ghaya ben Mbarek is a journalist for the independent news site, Meshkal and Aya Riahi is an anti-corruption activist with the youth driven NGO, I-Watch. We reached both of them in Tunis. For more on the regional implications of Tunisia's political crisis, I'm joined by Sami Hamdi. He's the managing director of The International Interest A Global Risk and Intelligence Company. He's in London, England. Hello.

SAMI HAMDI: Hi. Thanks for having me.

NA: Thank you for being here, Sami. What do you make of what we just heard there about how many Tunisians are feeling about the future of their country and their democracy?

SAMI HAMDI: I think it's a tragedy. I mean, the Arab Spring began in my hometown of Sidi Bouzid, and Mohamed Bouazizi is in the village next to us. So the idea being that when he burnt himself and those youths and everyone took to the streets, you know, as they said, there was these huge hopes that suddenly something could change. Everyone had enough. It's anything but this current status quo. And you have to imagine there's this wave of popular anger. The people themselves are bringing down a regime that everybody just thought the night before was invincible. No one ever imagined that Ben Ali was going to fall. Tunisia at the time was talking about Ben Ali, maybe raising his son and handing over power to his son, Mohammed. The idea being that these authoritarians don't fall unless the Americans get involved or the like. But this was a people led initiative that toppled an authoritarian regime that managed to seize back the state for themselves and had all these high hopes. So to see 11 years later, you know, an authoritarian re-emerge once more and seize power for themselves. To be honest, is a tragedy. And I think that Tunisia in particular in the region reflects the last bastion of this democratic wave following the fall of the democratic process in Egypt in 2013, following Sisi's overthrow of the democratically elected president.

NA: Yeah. And it was definitely seen in that way. Tunisia was seen kind of as that last place that perhaps might escape the violence and the horror of the Arab Spring. I'm wondering, since you've watched this for so long, do you have any sense at which the turning point happened? Could Tunisia have avoided this crisis?

SAMI HAMDI: I think that it's difficult. I mean, Tunisia, it's… we have to remember that in the regional context, when the Arab Spring broke out, the region divided into two fault lines. You had the regimes that decided to support the democratic transition, albeit for because they believed their allies were the ones benefiting from it. And you had on the other side, you had a number of these authoritarian regimes, notably monarchies, who believed that the Arab Spring was an existential threat, and therefore there should be support and backing in order to topple these democratic transitions and processes before they arrived to their borders, before they arrive on the shores. So on one side, you had Turkey and Qatar. On the other side, you had Saudi Arabia and the UAE. And I think the turning point was 2013, when Sisi successfully managed to topple the democratically elected president because that...

NA: In Egypt.

SAMI HAMDI: Caused shockwaves in the region following the coup, we saw the warlord Haftar in Libya, who was a general at the time, we saw Haftar take up arms and begin to mobilize militarily to seise territories in eastern Libya. In Tunisia, we had massive protests led by the trade unions who rode the wave of Sisi's coup to topple the democratically elected another government and broker their own government via a national dialogue. And there seemed to be international recognition for this phenomenon in the manner in which the international community recognised Sisi's, his 90 something percent win in the elections despite his imprisoning of opponents. There was a Nobel Peace prize awarded to the trade unions in Tunisia for the national dialogue that they had orchestrated in order to bring down that democratically elected government. And this is... In Libya, we saw international recognition of Haftar. We saw security agreements being made between Haftar and Washington under the guise of fighting terrorism. 2013 was the turning point in which the authority, the side that was backing authoritarianism, scored one of the biggest gains. You have to remember that Egypt is the biggest Arab country, more than 95 million or 100 million by some estimates.

NA: Sure.

SAMI HAMDI: Population to have a democracy there was a huge boon for the democratic process. But for it to go back to authoritarianism was really sent this momentum, this reverse momentum for this democratic movement. And what we've seen consequently is survival politics on the part of those who push for the democratic transition and momentum for those who have sought to curtail the democratic transitions. Tunisia, perhaps, was later than the other countries we saw from 2016, 2017, 2018. We saw the beginnings of the disintegration of the democratic process. Kais Saied in Tunisia himself before he came to power had the famous saying where he said [saying in Arabic] "the Constitution has been eaten by the donkey". The idea being that this constitution is not fit for purpose.

NA: Right.

SAMI HAMDI: The idea that he was already alluding towards return of authoritarianism.

NA: Absolutely. So given that given and given the fact that Tunisia was provided the spark that started the Arab Spring, what do you think might be the implications the other way? Could there be implications of what is now happening in Tunisia for the rest of the region if Tunisia doesn't change course right now?

SAMI HAMDI: I think what's happened in Tunisia, remember, the overthrow of the democratic transition in Tunisia happened on July 25th, 2021. Since then, we've seen now reconsider. In between the two fault lines, Turkey has sought reconciliation with the UAE. Turkish President Erdogan went to Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia to essentially ask to make peace and to make amends and turn the page. Turkey is going after reconciliation now with Egypt essentially moving beyond the fault lines of the Arab Spring and recognizing the status quo of authoritarianism that has emerged. Likewise, Qatar has reconciled with Sisi. The Qatar foreign minister said a few months back that Qatar recognises Sisi's government as the legitimate government of Egypt. The idea being that given that Tunisia now appears to have fallen, albeit, I still hold out hope that those who support the overthrow will start infighting with one another. But the point being that with the downfall of Tunisia, we are now seeing these fault lines disappear. We're seeing those countries that wrestled with each other for the past ten years, that wrestled in Libya, that wrestled in the Mediterranean, that wrestled in Syria. We're seeing these countries now coming together at the table and saying authoritarianism won, let's make peace and go back to economic cooperation.

NA: A couple more questions. Specifically on Tunisia. The claim by critics in Tunisia is that the president has orchestrated a constitutional coup. And yet there are, as was mentioned in our previous conversation, elections scheduled for this December, what should we make of this? Of these two things coming together?

SAMI HAMDI: Kais Saied announced elections, but in the same speech announced that those traitors of the nation will not be allowed to participate in these elections, indicating that, according to his elections, he will seek to ensure that opposition parties will not participate. It's important to understand that Saied's firm supporters, that the firm supporters of Saied's movements, Sisi and the UAE. Sisi orchestrated an election. He put on a show and he was recognized internationally. The idea is Saied will do something similar. Washington seems to be giving the indication that it is less interested in the return of the democratic transition and more interested in ensuring that what Saied does appears as clean as possible. And that's why, even though Sayed has announced elections, he's putting his political opponents before military courts. He's unilaterally written new election laws. He's unilaterally announced his own roadmap. He's unilaterally announced his own national dialogue in which he's excluded all of the opposition parties and is barely including his own allies. They're falling out with one another because they believe that Kais Saied is not necessarily listening to them. But the idea being that the call to elections is out of the playbook of Egypt. The idea that if I hold elections in December and I can make a show of those elections, I can get the international recognition. We can move beyond talk of a coup. And just as Sisi was recognized, I can be recognized in the manner that Sisi was. That's the game of Kais Saied

NA: What would you... Just in the last few minutes here, what would you have the international community do to oppose that force and to save Tunisia's democratic transition?

SAMI HAMDI: I think there needs to be a firmer stance of firmness statements made regarding the rejection of what Kais Saied has done, as opposed to just voicing concern. When we see the statements coming out from Ned Price, the White House spokesman, whether it's with regards to Russia, whether it's with regards to states that the US has a real bone to pick with, we see much firmer statements. We are horrified, we are unhappy, there will be consequences or the like. But the statements as of now is we are concerned, we will hope that they will come to a dialogue, like we need firmer stance. We need a clear sign sent to Kais Saied that the international recognition that he's looking for will not be achieved unless he returns to the Democratic track, as opposed to the statements now which suggest more, make it look nice and we will recognize. So I know that sounds quite vague, but it's more about sending the message that there is no international recognition unless you include your political opponents in a national dialogue as opposed to we're just monitoring the situation and we'll see what we'll do.

NA: Sami Hamdi, thank you so much for your time.

SAMI HAMDI: Thank you for having me.

NA: Sami Hamdi is the managing director of The International Interest. That's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Today actor Harvey Fierstein joins Tom to speak about his new memoir, "I Was Better Last Night". But before we go. Today marks the 50th anniversary of one of the world's most recognisable photographs. The so-called "Napalm Girl" photo showed a young Vietnamese girl running naked down a road after being burned by the incendiary chemical. The girl's name is Kim Phuc Phan Thi. Decades after that photo was taken, she was granted asylum by Canada. She now lives outside Toronto. She spoke with the CBC documentary team a few years ago about the legacy of the photograph on her own identity. We'll leave you today with the words of Kim Phuc Phan Thi. I'm Nahlah Ayed. Thank you for listening to The Current.

KIM PHUC PHAN THI: I remember June 8th, 1972. And I saw the aeroplane and it's so loud, so close to me. Suddenly the fire everywhere around me. The fire burned off my clothes and I saw my arm got burned with the fire. I thought, Oh my goodness, I get burned. People will see me different way. Nine years old, I became a victim of war. I didn't like that picture at all. I felt like why he took my picture when it was agony naked. So ugly. I wish that picture wasn't taken. I went through 17 operations. I have to deal with the pain. Every single day. I used to compare my scars with buffalo skin and because my skin wasn't have any pores, I cannot sweat. Make me feel so tired, so headache. It blew me up with hatred, bitterness and anger. I just living with the question, why me? Why that happened to me? In 1982. I wanted to take my life because I thought after I die, no more suffer, no more pain. In Christmas, 1982. I became a Christian. That faith helped me a lot. I forgive everyone who caused my suffering. Even the pilot commander.

REPORTER: What do you see when you look at that photo of the girl in the picture?

KIM PHUC PHAN THI: Now I can see the picture. I'm so thankful. My name is Kim Phuc Phan Thi. This is my brave but spectacular take on pain and forgiveness.

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