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The Current Transcript for April 13, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

BAHATI: For the past eight years I've built a base of my life in Kakuma. And if they take me somewhere else. If they tell me to go back to Congo, who do I have? Everybody's dead, my family. So I'm just praying that they have pity on us because we have nowhere to go back to.

MATT GALLOWAY: Nowhere to go back to. More than 90 million people around the world are living that reality. That's how many people are displaced because of violence, persecution, war and increasingly climate change. Right now, it's the four and a half million Ukrainians who have fled their country making headlines. But just months ago, it was the Afghans fleeing the Taliban. Before that, Syrians, the Rohingya, Venezuelans. This morning on The Current, we're bringing you the stories of the people caught up in the global refugee crisis. Some have been displaced for weeks, others for more than 20 years. We'll also speak with U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Filippo Grandi about what can be done to help. But we start today at one of the world's biggest and oldest refugee camps. I'm Matt Galloway and this is a special edition of The Current.

[Sounds of a busy street]

Life in Refugee Camps

MG: Kakuma refugee camp is in Kenya. It's been around for 30 years, but it's slated to close in June. Tolossa Asrat is Ethiopian but had to flee his home country in 2013. He's been in Kakuma ever since. He's the team leader at Kanere, the only independent news source in the camp.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Kanere is sort of Kakuma's news reflector. Kanere is the only refugee media based in Kakuma refugee camp and you know, this is Kanere's operating space and this is my shelter. As you can see, we have three old laptops, one HP printer and the two working old cameras. We do have so many challenges to run our operation smoothly. You know, power is the main challenge. Sometimes generator power will be disconnected for a week.

MG: As you can imagine, running a news operation in a refugee camp is not easy or simple. Neither are daily tasks like getting water or charging a phone. So we asked Tolossa Asrat to take us on a walking tour of Kakuma One, the section of the camp where he lives.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Now I'm in Kakuma One, Somali market. This market is homogeneous, meaning owned and operated by Somali National. I can see a lot of shops are opened. Left and right are waiting for customers. I can see also, shops are full of electronics, including phone batteries and solar panels, and our Solar Power System in Kakuma are giving basic activities such as lighting and phone charging, while a large power intensive items like fridges are powered through generator.

[Generator sounds].

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Cocktails and tea rooms are closed due to Ramadan observance. I can see also, bodaboda riders are lined up waiting for their customers. Bodaboda is a key transportation in Kakuma. However, since the Russian and Ukrainian conflict, the fares have been rising nearly 50 percent.

[Sounds of a motor scooter]

TOLOSSA ASRAT: I'm now at a food distribution centre One, [inaudible] market. I can see shops, hotels and a busy market. I can see also, all the mothers are displaying fish for potential buyers. At this time, agencies are announcing to the camp residents to come and pick early food for them and as of April.

[Announcement]

TOLOSSA ASRAT: So it means...this means they are going to distribute to mass, uh, purses and vegetable oils for the month of April. So refugees have been receiving very small amount of relief food on a monthly basis from international communities or one of the U.N. organizations.

[People talking]

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Kakuma was founded in 1991 for accommodating only 70,000 refugees. However, today the camp is home to almost 160,000 people from 21 different nationalities. That's amazing.

BAHATI: My name is Bahati. I have been living in Kakuma for the past eight years. I am from the DRC Congo. I came from Congo because of war. Political instability forced me to run away from my home. The current biggest challenge we're facing is this small ration. Ration has been cut into two. We are suffering the ration that we are given for the past two months. It only takes me one week and it's finish with that small incentive salary, even if their salary was a bit higher. I do the same work with nationals, even more work than nationals, but I am paid very, very small money. The ration should go back to the way it used to be because children are dying of hunger. There's been a lot of crime rate. People are stealing because their food is small.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Kakuma camp is windy and the well known for its dry weather and water scarcity. The camp is surrounded by desert and is, you know, a dehydrated landscape with short bushes. You know, the rainy season supposed to start during March, and it usually ends on June. However, we have never seen rain since March, and the camp seems like it has never seen rains in a century. Fortunately, I'm now seeing a lot of people lined up to get water and in places like Kakuma with high population density and water shortage can spark conflict.

[sounds of water moving]

ANOTHER FEMALE VOICE: We always fight almost every day at the water taps because water ration is very small, and then the incentive will pay, they us very small. I cook. I'm paid 3000 per month or 6000. Now how will that help me feed my children and my family? That is very small.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Kenya has been following encampment policies. So refugees movement out of the camp is restricted with very small livelihood opportunity. The entire camp is dependent upon some kind of handout.

CHRISTINE: My name is Christine and Rwandan by nationality. I'm here to seek refugee after war broke out in 1994, back home. And Kakuma, this is my 24th year. The most challenging thing is not being accepted. You just find the most of the time the hosts are telling you, you're a refugee on our land. Like, if you need to go somewhere to access maybe business, education and medical, you need to seek permission because in most cases, the type of medication we're receiving, it's not an upgraded one and is in such a scenario of someone need to travel out of the camp, it's very hard. We are like in jail.

[loud rumbling noise]

HASSAN: My name is Hassan, and I'm Somali, who's living in Kakuma Refugee Camp, Kenya. I'm a refugee basically. And I stayed here for a long time.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: How long you stayed here?

HASSAN: I stayed almost for 23 to 25 years. Yeah.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: So what have been the most difficult parts of life in Kakuma for you personally?

HASSAN: The challenges are more. The challenges are more, but the main one is the lifestyle about the lifestyle. There's no job. There’s a lack of education.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Thank you. What you do, for example, if you have a chance to meet Filippo Grandi, you know, his excellency, the head of UNHCR and what would you ask him if you get the chance to meet him?

HASSAN: To get his help. To help us the best that he can. To come and see the situation and the condition that we are facing in the camp. I wish one time he could come and see how we live or how we... about the security. About whatever... The main thing that I would say is to come and help us like most people here, refugees, they don't have a way to go back like me, somebody like me, I have no place to go back. I have no home. I call Kenya home. So if you can come and give us that country, if it's possible.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Are you referring to resettlement or?

HASSAN: Yeah, I'm referring to resettlement, yeah.

CHRISTINE: I would like to ask him to grant our children the education they deserve. Like those who have finished high school to be given other chances to attend universities, colleges at their own level. And also, I would like him to support refugees as much as he can. I know there's nothing enough to [inaudible] but I just let them try their best to drop the lifestyle of every refugee because in most cases when they come here, they are doing it [inaudible]. They are being escorted with the police, with the [inaudible]. They're very surrounded. They just walk around the lake as if they were watching the animals. They don't access us. They don't. Would we, although we need to talk to them, but in most cases, it is very impossible.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: What do you want people who have never been refugees to understand what is to be... What's to live like a refugee?

CHRISTINE: Mr. Asrat, I'm sorry, I can't say what they want for the people who have not been a refugee. If you don't have experience, you don't have experience. People used to lie to us. I understand how you feel. No, you don't understand how I feel because a refugee is someone who has passed through terrible incidents, horrible times. So in most cases, you cannot say, I understand what we feel. The only person now who can understand it is the Ukraine and Russia, whereby I'm very sorry for their persons who have been through that. And maybe soon I'm going to experience the same thing because we don't have a permanent home as refugees.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Yeah, what is home to you?

CHRISTINE: Home is a place whereby you have peace, you have security, you have protection, you have freedom, you have rights.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: Recently, the host country can now inform the UNHCR to come up with a road map to close the camp operation and the upcoming journey said the last months to close the camp. At this time, the camp population are scared and frustrated because no one knows what will await us after two or three months.

BAHATI: When I heard of the news that Kakuma is being closed, the first thing that came to my mind was scared. I fear. I fear very much. If it closes, where will I go? Where will I start? But the past eight years, I've built a base of my life in Kakuma, and if they take me somewhere else if they tell me to go back to Congo. Who do I have? Everybody is dead, my family, nothing to do there. I not go to school in Congo. So if I go back, where would my life start? So I'm just praying that they have pity on us because we have nowhere to go back to.

HASSAN: It's worrying. It's worrying. It's like no go zone. There's no where that I can go. There is no... because I grew up here. I stayed here since I was two years old, so there's no way to go back. It's worrying a lot. It's worrying and it's shocking. Shocking.

CHRISTINE: For people who have not been to a refugee camp before, what personally... What many understand, it is teaching you new experience, teaching you to live with people, different people like me, my neighbour's Somali, my neighbour's Sudanese, my neighbour's Ethiopian, all community live together. Now, if me I was not in Kakuma. Me, I will not even know how people from Sudan live, how people from Somalia live, I'll not know the different food. I will not have friends from different places. But now that I live in Kakuma, I learnt to live with them. We use the same water tap, use the same market. We share our pain together. That's how we heal slowly by slowly because everybody has their pain. Everybody has their story. But now we live together as a community. We heal one another.

TOLOSSA ASRAT: You know, life in the camp is getting worse every single day, especially after the pandemic. Following the pandemic suicide has been rising. And, you know, suicide has been a serious refuge social health problem since the pandemic. You know, it's not hard for anyone to imagine how stressful and traumatic life would have been in Kakuma.

[Noisy street sounds]

MALE SPEAKER: Never intend. Never intend. It's not something to be, and it's not something. It's not a good status. Being a refugee, even I don't admire somebody to be a refugee because I have passed the true. And I have experienced for a long, long time period since I was young. So I don't wish anyone else or anyone. I don't wish for anyone to be a refugee. It's not a good status. It's not something to be.

[Sounds of motor scooter]

CHRISTINE: What is home to me? Right now, I can say Kakuma is my home, because Kakuma is where I know people. Congo is my home because I knew my neighbours, I knew my people. There was peace, there was everything. But right now my home is my people. My home is not the structure, my home and is not the country. My home is the people I'm living with, the people I meet every day when I wake up, every night when I go to sleep. The people I meet on my way to their market, the relationship we share, we laugh, go to church together, go watch football together, meet ration area together. When somebody has problems, we go help that person. If I have a problem, they come. They help me. That is my home.

MALE SPEAKER: Home... Home I can't say now. But now I call home Kenya, but I wish I could call home that country, which my children can get access to food, access to education, access of everything like to live like other human beings.

[loud street sounds]

MG: Only about 20 percent of the world's refugees live in camps like Kakuma. Some people leaving Africa and the Middle East make the treacherous journey to Europe and end up living on the streets. In Paris, more than 1500 refugees sleep rough every night, and they're hoping to be granted asylum in France. But until that long process is finished, they are stuck in limbo. Freelance reporter Kyle G. Brown went to some of the camps of Pantin, a Paris suburb.

[Brown talking to Zakir on the street]

KYLE G. BROWN: You found this in a rubbish bin?

ZAKIR: Yeah, some of my friends give me. And told me there is [inaudible] you can prepare, after you can use...

KYLE G. BROWN: Oh so, you repaired it and you put it to use then?

KYLE G. BROWN: Zakir is using only his first name out of fear that he'll be tracked down. Five years ago, at the age of 16, he fled the Taliban in his town of Takhar in northeast Afghanistan.

ZAKIR: That night I was sleeping just two hours, not more, because everytime wake up, wake up. Why? Because cold. I can't sleep.

KYLE G. BROWN: Zakir travelled by car and foot through Iran, Pakistan, Turkey and Greece. He says he was attacked several times.

ZAKIR: Because them do not like refugees. And there are lot of the people come when you are alone, they take your telephone, your money, you some things with you. Them took everything.

KYLE G. BROWN: That's happened to you?

ZAKIR: Yeah. three or four times it's happened for me.

KYLE G. BROWN: What happened? Did they steal your stuff?

ZAKIR: Yeah. The one time I tried for the fight with him with knife that I'm alone. One of my friends died like this after a fight, them killed him with a knife. Three or four of my friends died here.

KYLE G. BROWN: So there's a faucet against the wall, there's a short queue of young men waiting to use the water here, you know, washing their hands and feet and brushing their teeth, mainly with their fingers for lack of a toothbrush. Bilal [inaudible] arrived in Paris from Kabul six months ago. He's the son of an Afghan Air Force pilot, and he was studying medicine until the Taliban returned to power.

BILAL: And when someone was in the military or was a pilot or a police or national armies, they don't let them alive. They just start killing the military people.

KYLE G. BROWN: And you received a number of letters. And what was said in these letters?

BILAL: They wrote that, uh, you become a non-Muslims because you were good American. You helped them. You bring Americans here in our land. And, uh, we never let you leave. You have to leave your duty, your job, and they have to join us. And at that time we will forgive you. And we don't kill you.

KYLE G. BROWN: Bilal set off last August on foot and by car, thanks to payments made by his uncle to smugglers. He arrived in Turkey, where he boarded a fishing boat to Italy.

BILAL: We was 150 people on that boat.

KYLE G. BROWN: It ran aground and started to take on water. He shows me a grainy video on his phone.

BILAL: Just trying to take off the water from the ship. That was a hard situation. I mean, hardest in my life. The hard situation.

KYLE G. BROWN: Rights groups have filmed several evictions from street camps. In one video from earlier this month, police arrive in the early hours shining flashlights in the darkness, ordering bewildered men sleeping on the street to get up and get out. So I'm in front of a three storey squat beige building. And it happens to have just been squatted over the past couple of months by a number of people acting in support and solidarity with the migrants, mainly Sudanese people here and from other parts of Africa, Ethiopia and Eritrea.

AHMED: My name is Ahmed and I am from Ethiopia. I arrived here in France before one year and four months. I spent most of my time on the streets. You will be forced into every time you make an attempt to leave the place.

KYLE G. BROWN: And what did the police do?

AHMED: The police, they will destruct some of the.. most of the time and...

KYLE G. BROWN: Destroy. Destroy your things?

AHMED: Yeah, they will destruct your tent.

KYLE G. BROWN: Ahmed says police sprayed tear gas at them.

BILAL: I think, uh, France was a good country before, but when I arrived, I see Oh no, man, you was wrong. It's difficult to live here. People thought that when you can... When you go to France, they will give you a home. You have a home, you can achieve your dreams. You can study everything that you want. You can achieve. But you know, I came here and see the situation. I was surprised and people's living in tents in France in a country.

KYLE G. BROWN: Bilal and Zakir wonder how France has managed to set up a reception centre accommodating thousands of Ukrainians in mere days, while countless people from Africa and the Middle East live in camps under bridges and on the streets.

ZAKIR: You can't believe it. Here is France or here is Europe. If here is Europe why the people live like this? We are human. We are like you, them leave us like animal in the street. Sometimes I do not eat. Why? Because I don't have money. We are like Ukrainian people. Why, Ukrainian people is better? Ukrainian people are human, but we are not human.

MG: The CBC News is next, and then in six minutes, we'll hear from refugees who've made it here to Canada. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current looking at the global refugee crisis. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Refugees in Canada

Guests: Ludmila Dmitrienko, Alaa Alakel and Razia Sayad

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current looking at the global refugee crisis.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Filippo Grandi will be here to talk resettlement, refugee camps and why, despite everything, he's still an optimist. But first, the people who've made their way to this country.

[Music: Theme]

MG: As the Russian assault on Ukraine continues, some four and a half million Ukrainians have made the difficult decision to leave their country. And some of them have now found their way to Canada. Ludmila Dmitrienko fled from her home city of Lviv, and she's now in Chilliwack, B.C., with her 13 year old granddaughter. Ludmila, good morning.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: I'm doing OK here in Canada and really, really love the country, especially the people.

MG: When did you realize that you were going to have to leave Ukraine?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: I realized when they started bombing Lviv, it happened just 45 kilometres from my house and I heard the explosions. Can you imagine how terrible an explosion that in 45 kilometres I heard three explosions. I couldn't understand where are they? And then my son in law called that peacekeeping centre is destroyed and so many people died. And I understood that there is no corner in Ukraine, where to hide. Finally, we spent nearly a week and a half in Poland before we went to Canada.

MG: What was it like crossing the border from Ukraine to Poland? When we were there in March, the line-ups were very, very long of people trying to get out.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Oh yeah, we were standing for 10 hours.

MG: 10 hours!

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yes. Yes. So many people. It was a big moment.

MG: Yeah, it must have been incredible.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yeah, incredible. And then when I was in Poland already, my son in law sent me a picture. They explode. It's this small factory repairing things, but it's just near my house. My windows look to this factory, and I even got the big joke that my house is standing and such crazy fire behind the house. I was surprised that it wasn't destroyed.

MG: You left with your granddaughter, who's 13. How is she affected by the war?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: She was very affected. That's why we came here because she didn't sleep properly. At night it could be two/three sirens. She's just left in her clothes.

MG: This in her clothes.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yeah. And during the day, she was afraid that it could be a bombing or something. So just little girl, she didn't see any, how to say, enjoyment in the life.

MG: When people have to leave because of a war, they leave family and a life behind. Tell me what you left behind.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: I left behind my daughter, son in law and my lovely grandson. My grandson was a cadet in the [inaudible] academy. He was studying to be a military attache. And from the first day of war he put on his military uniform weapons and started to be in defence of Kyiv.

MG: What is that like for you knowing that your 19 year old grandson is in battle?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: I was dying all day and night, I was thinking about him and I couldn't call because he said, Grandma, don't call me because it's a secret where I'm standing and blah blah blah. I never, never prayed so much. OK.

MG: It must be really hard to be away from not just family, but from your home.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yes, of course, I miss my home, and but I try not to think about that because I got blessed that I'm here and we will be here for May 24th.

MG: That's when you're going... That's when you're supposed to go back is May 24th?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MG: Why is it important for you to have that date to know that you're going to be going home?

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yes, it's very important because all my thoughts are always with Ukraine and, you know. You can't imagine. Who is stuck in my head and I cry and cry and cry.

MG: Even though it's dangerous, you feel like you need to go back.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Yes, I need to go back because, you know, you can't hide forever. There are people who are staying there. My family and my cat. So I want to come back.

MG: Well, I'm glad that you found safety here, and I hope that your family is safe as well back in Ukraine. It's good to talk to you.

LUDMILA DMITRIENKO: Thanks very much.

MG: Ludmila Dmitrienko is from Lviv, Ukraine. We reached her in Chilliwack, B.C. Alaa Alakel, can relate to what Ukrainians are going through right now. She's from Kafr Nabl in Syria. In 2018, the Russian Air Force began an intense assault on that city. Alaa was a student in Toronto at the time her family was forced to flee. They're now living in a camp in northern Syria. Alaa Alakel in Toronto. Alaa, good morning to you.

ALAA ALAKEL: Good morning.

MG: What does it been like for you, given what you and your family have gone through to see this war unfold in Ukraine?

ALAA ALAKEL: Honestly, it's horrible to see millions of people go again through what Syria's been going through for like years. I have all the trauma back watching the news. It's like. All the war that... And all the bombs, it's going in my head over and over again each time I see the war in Ukraine. And because we're going through the pain, we can know how much they're suffering and I never thought that this could happen again to other people. I didn't want to believe this.

MG: Your family was in Idlib province when that area of Syria came under attack. When did they decide that they had to leave, where they were?

ALAA ALAKEL: Well, we stayed in my city, Kafr Nabl, for like most of the time, but when Russia and the Syrian regime decided to take a more vicious approach, actually, my dad left in the last second before a bomb came on my house and destroyed it. So it wasn't a choice. It was like a survival. They had to leave or they were going to die.

MG: Where are they now?

ALAA ALAKEL: Oh, they are now living in Medina Camp is the north of Syria.

MG: You're in Toronto. How... I know that you're working in some ways to try to support them. How are you doing that?

ALAA ALAKEL: Well, I think it's like God on my side, too, because I'm doing full time school and I'm working. So what I do, I like, try to like, save as much as I can and I send it to them each few months.

MG: And that makes a huge difference in the lives that they're leading in that camp.

ALAA ALAKEL: Exactly, it's... I'm ready to give up everything for them to have their food, to have everything. I don't care how much I have to work or what I have to do. I really don't know if I'm going to see them or not. So I don't care if I have to give up all my life just to at least make them comfortable in a war zone because I don't know if I'm going to see them again. And I want to do my best to make sure they're okay.

MG: Your brother Hamoudi is on the line from the camp where your family is living in northern Syria, and we thought that it would be good to hear from him. And have you talked to each other? Hamoudi are you there?

ALAA ALAKEL: Yeah he's with us.

MG: Hamoudi, could you describe what life is like in the camp right now?

ALAA ALAKEL: [Translating her brother's answer] So he said living in the camp is very hard, especially after you lost your home, your land, your people, your friends, your neighbours. It's hard for them because it's very cold. They're having trouble heating the tents where they were living, even internet. Everything is like shortage on everything. Hamoudi? He's having trouble hearing us again.

MG: No, that's OK. I'm going to ask you another question then.

ALAA ALAKEL: Okay.

MG: When was the last time that you saw Hamoudi and your family?

ALAA ALAKEL: I don't remember, I think it's like 2017.

MG: That's a long time to be away from your family. What is it that keeps you going separated from them, knowing where they are and knowing where you are?

ALAA ALAKEL: I'm going to be honest with you. I have so many mental health problems. After the prison, after still working in the hospitals in Syria, I saw a lot. I experienced a lot. When I even think about like, I'm done with this life, I hear their voices. We need you. We love you. I can just like, give up. Their lives are still going. I mean, my sister's daughters are like, great. They are like when I see them. I forget everything, and I feel like I can do it, just for them.

MG: What would it take to get them here to Canada?

ALAA ALAKEL: It takes a lot. It's a lot of money that I don't have. Canada does not open this application all the time, like it's open for one day and then they close it. But even if I said I found a sponsor, and that's fine. I need to get them out of Syria because for them to be sponsored, they have to be out of Syria. And there is no way for me to get them out of Syria. It's so difficult. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of work. And I have none of it.

MG: That's really hard.

ALAA ALAKEL: It is.

MG: What would you want the Canadian government to do? We're spending today talking about the movement of people, and we're seeing the government work really hard when it comes to refugees, people who are fleeing the war in Ukraine. What would you want for people like your family in Syria?

ALAA ALAKEL: I am honestly, first of all, it's hard for them to have the war, but I'm very happy for the Ukrainian people that they are able to come here because honestly, I don't want anybody to suffer the way we're suffering. I wish that the government would extend this policy for a Syrian, but I'm still happy for the Ukrainian.

MG: That's really generous of you. Take care of yourself. I wish the best for you and for your family as well. It's really important to hear from you, and I hope we have the chance to talk again.

ALAA ALAKEL: Thank you so much.

MG: Alaa Alakel is from Syria. She's studying mathematics at Ryerson University in Toronto. Her family is living in a camp in northern Syria. Just months ago, the world was watching horrifying scenes from the last days of the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan. The chaos at the airport, the crowds of desperate people, some even storming the runway and clinging to the sides of planes. Razia Sayad managed to get out on one of those evacuation flights. She served as a commissioner with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. She's now living in Ottawa. Razia Sayad, good morning.

RAZIA SAYAD: Good morning.

MG: You were one of the people at the airport in those final days before the U.S. military pulled out. What do you remember about that time?

RAZIA SAYAD: Actually, what I remember from those days is that I, along with my family went to the airport for [inaudible], I had my children with myself. And on August 27, the day that horrific explosions happened on the gates of the airport. I could make it into the air just a few minutes before the explosion happened.

MG: It must have been incredibly stressful.

RAZIA SAYAD: Of course. Of course, I saw many horrific situations. I saw many children where they are lost from their parents. Also, when I was at the gate, the soldiers shot through the electricity lines, and one of those lines just fell down on the people, and it killed six people in front of my eyes. And I can't forget. It will be forever, forever with me.

MG: That's awful. It must have been incredibly difficult to leave your home country.

RAZIA SAYAD: For sure. It's too difficult. On that day, I left everything behind my home, my family and my colleagues, especially my colleagues, because they had more expectations from us because we encourage them to work for human rights, for democratic values and for humanity. In the last 20 years. And then we left the country and we left it behind.

MG: I know that you've been trying to help your colleagues get out of the country, the people that you feel as though you left behind, what have you been able to do?

RAZIA SAYAD: So far not only me, there are a group of three volunteers, so we made to help evacuate more than 100 staff members with their families, out of Afghanistan. But there are more who are under threat and just trying to change their houses and are still in hiding.

MG: So they have to move from house to house to stay safe?

RAZIA SAYAD: Yes, of course. Yes, they are not able to figure out how to be in the public to work and to have income. And we are trying to provide them with some funding as well and also trying to be back with them and resettled to this country.

MG: What kind of assistance have you received from Canadian officials in helping to get your colleagues out of Afghanistan?

RAZIA SAYAD: Just a few of our colleagues, three commissioners of the commissions and three senior staff members have helped by the Canada so far. But there are other countries. For example, Germany provided approval of admission for almost 90 of our staff members with their families.

MG: So what more would you want from Canadian officials?

RAZIA SAYAD: Actually, my suggestion to the Canadian officials, especially to the honourable Minister Fraser, is to consider the vulnerability of the Afghan people. It's true that our staff doesn't have contract with Canada Embassy or with the Canada Army, but we sacrifice our life and the life of our families at the frontline of human rights.

MG: How do you reflect on the life that you left behind in Afghanistan?

RAZIA SAYAD: Now, the only thing that I am thinking is that I'm safe and my children and my husband are safe and especially my daughter, who is 13 years old, is able to go to school to continue her education. But when I think back to my country, it's so devastating to think about the millions of girls who are not able to go to school and thousands of people who are taken hostage, just for only doing humanitarian work and for working in the government or for any other organization.

MG: Do you see this as home now or could you imagine in future going back to Afghanistan if the situation were to change?

RAZIA SAYAD: Since I came to Canada, the people, they are so welcoming. I feel at home in Canada, but I'm very interested to one day to go back to my country and to show women and girls that they want freedom.

MG: I'm glad that you're here and I'm glad that you're safe, and I hope that those who worked with you get out of the country soon. In the meantime, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

RAZIA SAYAD: Thank you very much. Just as the last thoughts, I would like to appreciate the government of Canada and especially the people, the service providers, volunteers and the former veterans that they made all their efforts. And they put together 6000 Afghan people to resettle to Canada.

MG: Thank you very much. Again, take care. Bye bye.

RAZIA SAYAD: Bye.

MG: Razia Sayad is from Afghanistan. She's now a permanent resident of Canada, living in Ottawa. In Ethiopia, a civil war and the resulting famine have killed as many as half a million people. A report by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International found that government forces and Amhara militias are responsible for a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Tigrayan people. My next guest is one of the many Ethiopians who has had to flee that country. We're calling him JB because he is concerned about his safety and that of his family. JB, good morning.

JB: Good morning.

MG: When did you know that you had to leave Ethiopia?

JB: Actually, I left Ethiopia on February 2019, and even though it is not covered by international media, there was a lot going on the ground. And also I was been in jail for a while...

MG: You were jailed?

JB: Yeah, I was protesting government for injustice happening to people.

MG: And because of that, you felt that you couldn't stay in the country, that it was no longer safe for you to stay there?

JB: Yeah, it was unsafe for me. And even they were warning me that it was very risky for my life and I escaped the country.

MG: How did you get to Canada?

JB: First time I was unable to directly come to Canada. I went to another country and from there I got the visa to Canada. And as soon as I came to Canada, I asked for asylum.

MG: You asked for political asylum?

JB: Yeah.

MG: And so what is your status here now?

JB: My status is still a refugee claimant. I haven't got a decision yet.

MG: So you're still sort of in limbo.

JB: Yeah.

MG: Did you know anybody when you came here?

JB: Personally, I don't know many people, but I have some people who I know on social media and that's the only person I know.

MG: And so where did you go when you got here?

JB: I stayed with the guy I know on social media for a week, but after that I got the shelter known as Matthew House helping the newcomers to Canada. And I stayed for a while.

MG: What did that mean for you, having shelter through that organization?

JB: At that time it is life saving and I feel like a family. It was very encouraging and I came to Canada without any saving and they helped me a lot.

MG: Amongst the people who are back there is your wife. It must be really difficult for you being that far away from your family.

JB: Yeah, I'm always worrying for their safety. It's also, I think, political asylum amongst those who are very vulnerable. You can't travel, you cannot meet your family and you don't know what happened to them. It is a very tough situation and personally, I think it is one of the toughest situation in my life.

MG: What are you doing here to make ends meet and to make a living? You're doing some work here. What is that work?

JB: Yeah, actually, back home, I was like a healthcare professional and after coming here, I was working in a hospital like I was a preoperative service attendant preparing the operating room for the kids.

MG: So you were a health care professional in Ethiopia, and now you're helping to prepare the rooms here?

JB: Yeah, yeah. And then those who are not directly related to my qualification, but yeah, still working in health care.

MG: What would you want your life here to be in future?

JB: In future. What I'm planning to do is to continue with my career, like getting some health professional jobs in Canada. What worries me a lot for that is the safety of my family. When you cannot concentrate, you don't know what is happening and then the immigration problems are the kind of tedious. You don't know when it happens. That affects very much. I know Canada is doing a great job for giving protection to poor people, but I think there is a lot of things to be improved.

MG: What do you want people to know about the situation that you had to flee and the situation that you're in right now?

JB: This is very stressful lives and now situation back home in Ethiopia is very dangerous, but it is not getting media attention like there is no professional journalists covering what is happening in Ethiopia. And that this problem is going on for, like almost more than five years. If you consider Ukraine, what's happening in Ukraine is very horrible, but it's also getting more coverage. But Ethiopia even when we come here and when we ask asylum, people think like it's too passive. And to be honest, it is one of the deadliest conflicts in 2021 and 2022.

MG: JB, take care and good luck, and I hope you and your family are reunited soon.

JB: Thanks so much for giving me a chance and thank you.

MG: JB is a refugee claimant from Ethiopia. Well, coming up after your regional update. U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Filippo Grandi weighs in on the war in Ukraine and how to make things better for the millions of displaced people around the world. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to a special edition of The Current looking at the global refugee crisis. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Interview with Filippo Grandi

Guest: Filippo Grandi

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current

FILIPPO GRANDI: It's just growing exponentially, the news from Ukraine are not good. The humanitarian corridors don't seem to have worked so far, so I'm worried that more and more people would try to find safety across the borders and increasing the burden here and the responsibility of the country's neighbouring Ukraine to host so many people.

MG: That was Filippo Grandi, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, when we met last month on the border between Poland and Ukraine. When there is a humanitarian disaster, he's often there observing the response, commending the generous and urging leaders to do more. Over the past three months, he has visited emergency zones on three continents, and I'm very pleased he's been able to come into our studio. High Commissioner Grandi, good morning.

FILIPPO GRANDI: Good morning.

MG: Since we met last month, the number of Ukrainian refugees fleeing that war has exceeded four and a half million. How do you see the scale of this crisis? How do you interpret what's going on and the velocity of people who are getting out of that country?

FILIPPO GRANDI: It's been like a huge wave, right? You remember when we were there in Medyka at the Polish/Ukrainian border, people were coming in in numbers that we had not seen in decades, certainly in Europe, as we said many times, not since the Second World War. I was back there about 10 days ago. That big outflow has reduced considerably, almost completely. But I managed to cross inside Ukraine this time and visit western Ukraine. There's a lot of displaced people there. I think the feeling I got from observing the situation, how it has evolved, is they were waiting to see what's going to happen next. This war has been so unpredictable from the very beginning from that night of the Russian invasion up to now. And I think many of them are thinking of going back. Remember, many of the refugees are separated families. They had to split, men had to split from women because men stayed behind and fight in the army and women and children went to safety abroad. So I think many will want to be reunified, but they're waiting to see they're.... The news are so horrible of what we... what is being discovered in Ukraine, what is still happening in Ukraine that I think that it will take some time, some considerable amount of time before the situation settles.

MG: One of the things that you mentioned then and we're already seeing this now, is a concern that the generous welcome of neighbouring countries, countries like Poland, which have seen a huge influx of refugees, would wane that people would... Would cease to have the resources and the capacity to host those refugees, are you seeing that already?

FILIPPO GRANDI: You know, you remember that was our big worry, of course, and that was the big worry of the authorities as well. I must say solidarity has held so far. I was in my last visit... I was in Krakow, in Warsaw. Big Polish cities. I met both mayors. It's quite amazing. Still, what is happening. Now, you know, with the passage of time, we've been able to set up more structures, more points of congregation for refugees where we can give information and we can give help. And you know, the Polish people are bringing the refugees to those places, are showing them how they can be helped, how they can find transport, accommodation. So that continues. And what really was, in my opinion, the most important act was Europe's decision to allow all Ukrainian refugees to spread around the continent around the union because that ensured the sharing of responsibility, sharing of the burden better than any agreement of quotas or organized repatriation, organized distribution. It was spontaneous, but it was effective. And I think that that has allowed the hospitality to continue.

MG: There is a real concern and this is something that we heard from people in Poland as well who are helping those refugees that Ukrainian refugees are getting a much warmer welcome than people who are fleeing other crises in other countries. We saw last weekend… another appalling tragedy. A migrant boat capsized in the Mediterranean. 90 people killed in that. How do you explain the discrepancy in that welcome the fact that certain people are being treated different than other people?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Well, there are many explanations. Some are. More legitimate, if you wish, this is a crisis that has struck the whole world's imagination. And I think it's a crisis in which everybody has been able to see clearly the correlation between the war and the flight of the refugees. You know, for other refugees that come to Europe, for example, from further away. Not everybody sees that correlation. But then there are, in my opinion, less legitimate reasons. You know, there have been politicians, there have been awful in this respect, even in my country. Politicians that have said that these people arriving in Poland, in Romania, the Ukrainians, these are the real refugees, those that come by boat across the Mediterranean, from Africa, from other places. They are fake. This is racist. This is profoundly racist. What I have always said is that and I have kept saying it during the last few weeks is that fear is fear. You know, you are afraid of bombs in Ukraine as you are afraid of fighting in villages in Africa or afraid of persecution and discrimination if you are a Muslim Rohingya in Burma. And everybody needs the same compassion, the same solidarity and the same support. I only hope... You know I'm an optimist by nature, although that's being tested a lot these days. But I hope that at least this will explain to public opinion at large what it means to be afraid and to have to flee.

MG: What gives you the sense that this is an opportunity? When we were speaking with people who are helping refugees fleeing Ukraine they were talking about this active conversation within their countries about how they are addressing these issues. What gives you the sense that this might lead to that kind of change?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Well, I hope that it will lead to this kind of change. I still do not know. I think for one, for those of us who are activists in the cause of refugees, we have now an example that everybody will understand that nobody can deny. Everybody has seen it. Everybody has felt that solidarity for the Ukrainians. We're going to use that to explain that this is needed also in other places. Europe is going to face arrivals across the Mediterranean in the next few months. There's no doubt about this. The COVID restrictions have been largely lifted. The season is going towards the warm season. This is when it's going to happen, so we will have a big test. I want to add one quick thing, which is also very important. It's not just what people feel is how governments or states receiving these people organize themselves. For a long time, we were told by those same politicians, it's impossible. They have to go back. We have to build walls. We have to push boats at sea. Well, now Europe has taken in four and a half million in just over a month. So it is possible, like Angela Merkel used to say, We can do it.

MG: When we spoke in Poland, you urged the world to keep a global perspective on refugees, and your office is dealing with crises in Ethiopia, in Afghanistan and Syria, in Yemen and the Sahel. Do you worry that those crises are being overshadowed by what's happening in Eastern Europe?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Yes, I am worried. I am worried in many ways. They're being overshadowed in terms of the political attention that they need to be resolved, addressed at least. I'm worried about the resources in state’s development assistance, for example, being reduced because many states in the global north have increased. For example, their military spending, including Canada. If I understand correctly. I'm worried that even by some specificities of this crisis, in many of the places where we deal with refugee situations, the Middle East, for example, there are almost six million Syrian still in the countries neighbouring Syria. This is more than the Ukrainians that have left, and they are in Lebanon, they are in Jordan. These are countries that import a lot of food from Ukraine and Russia, and they are in a terrible food security predicament at the moment. So there are also some direct impacts of this crisis on other crises, which will make them worse.

MG: What is the role of a country like Canada in addressing that? In part, this is about finite resources. You have a lot of resources that are being dedicated for obvious reasons to the crisis in Ukraine when it comes to trying to process refugees in an expedited way. Do you worry that those resources get diverted from those other crises? And if so, what is the role of a country like Canada?

FILIPPO GRANDI: I am worried, although I have to say I'm coming from Ottawa. And in the days when I was in Ottawa, the Ministry of International Development approved an 80 million Canadian dollar allocation to respond to humanitarian needs in the Sahel in western Africa. This is… these are very good signals. And you know, when I say military spending, I understand the necessity of that. It has proven necessary to respond to this crisis. Unfortunately, my only plea here is don't take this away from development assistance.

MG: One of the countries that Canada is paying very close attention to. And we'll talk about whether that's commensurate with the level of the crisis. But Afghanistan. You were recently in Afghanistan. How would you describe the state of that country since the Taliban has taken power?

FILIPPO GRANDI: It's perhaps a little different from the perception that people might have or might think about. First of all, and because the Taliban were the major factor of insecurity before taking over, now that they're in power, there's a lot more security than we've ever had in the past decades. For the first time, the U.N. humanitarian organizations like mine have access to all districts in Afghanistan. We haven't seen this. I don't know for probably since before the Soviet invasion. So the 80s. And so that is an advantage. But of course, the Taliban are in power. They've made a very bad decision, for example, recently not to allow girls back into secondary education and their policies and practices on a number of issues are still quite problematic. Rights of women, education of girls, in particular minorities and so forth. But my sense. After two visits, I paid two visits to Taliban ruled Afghanistan, is that we need to continue talking to them.

MG: That's not a contentious thing to say, but certainly not a universally agreed upon sentiment. There are a lot of people... And again, we've spoken with aid organizations, we've spoken to people on the ground who say that there is no reason to continue to speak or to work with the Taliban. What gives you the sense that that's important?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Well, what's Plan B? You know, there's not going to be another war taking the Taliban out. They've won the war after 20 years. They're in control. They'll be in control for the foreseeable future. The alternative is to... Yes, sure. You know, everybody's free not to talk to them, but that means also not to help the Afghan people and not helping the Afghan people will no doubt cause a major humanitarian crisis and possibly an exodus of Afghans, which I think the world doesn't need and the Afghans don't need. At this particular point, the only alternative to this is dialogue, is negotiation and some progress has occurred. For example, in our offices women can work, our women colleagues can work. It took a while, but they can work. In the first Taliban government regime in the 90s. This was not possible, women had been sent home. So there's differences, there's a different context, and I think we need to leverage that.

MG: And yet young girls are not allowed to go back to school and they get we've spoken to those girls and they're heartbroken.

FILIPPO GRANDI: I'm not saying it's good. I didn't say that. I said that if we want those girls to go back to school, we need to talk to the Taliban, not turn our back to them.

MG: What about for those who want to leave Afghanistan? Canada has promised to bring 50,000 refugees to this country, and part of the difficulty there is the ability of people to leave the country. Is your sense that the Taliban is willing to open the border so that those who want to get out of the country can get out?

FILIPPO GRANDI: I personally think that certainly there are people at risk inside Afghanistan, and it would be good to be able to help them get out. But um, the majority of people will remain in Afghanistan. And the priority for us certainly is to help those who will remain.

MG: The countries that host the most refugees, as you've hinted are often the countries that have the fewest resources. There are hundreds of thousands of people living in two giant refugee camps in Kenya, Kakuma and Dadaab. People in those camps say right now that there is not enough to eat, there is not enough clean water. Whose responsibility is it in those camps to ensure that refugees have the basic necessities of life?

FILIPPO GRANDI: First of all, let me maybe qualify a little bit more of the situation. There are, yes, two major clusters of refugee camps. Dadaab is hosting Somali refugees, and then Kakuma is hosting refugees from South Sudan and other countries. It's a lot of people. It's about half a million in total. Dadaab is a difficult place.

MG: What does that mean?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Not enough investments in making the place more self-reliant have been made over the years, and the place depends a lot on humanitarian assistance, therefore whose responsibility it is. It is, of course, the Kenyan government that is the host, but also the UN and also the international community. And it's been difficult to mobilise enough resources after almost 30 years of the presence of those refugees. The main solution would be more peace in Somalia and for people to be able to go back. Some people have gone back, but not enough to solve the situation. Kakuma is a completely different story. Kakuma is actually a camp or a settlement where we have made interesting investments. We've been allowed by the goodwill, the openness of the local Kenyan authorities, and that we're working with financial institutions, with the private sector, with many donors. And in fact, although conditions are still harsh, that's a camp where people have opportunities. But this is a much better model of supporting refugees than in many other situations.

MG: What are those opportunities for people in that camp look like?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Well, for example, we work with the International Financial Corporation. This is a branch of the World Bank. You know, we've been conducting interesting studies even in a very fragile situation, like a refugee camp in a remote area of Kenya next to South Sudan, a war torn country. How can we create possibilities for the private sector to invest? The Kenya food sector, for example, is now investing and creating jobs for both refugees and the local community, creating trade and creating some levels of... I wouldn't say prosperity, but decent economic conditions.

MG: What does that mean practically then, for the people who through no fault of their own, find themselves displaced and living in a camp like this, not in a short term period, but for the long term.

FILIPPO GRANDI: Practically, this particular project is a good example, means investing resources in giving people skills to start small enterprises and investing a little bit of start-up money for these enterprises to begin. Opening up the camp, not creating a closed settlement, depending entirely on humanitarian assistance, but opening it up to, for example, trade with the local community. This has created opportunities for the local community. It means that schools that have been built are open to both locals and refugees. And this creates... diminishes tensions, creates more integration.

MG: There is a plan by the Kenyan government to close these camps later this year. Take a listen to Bahati. She has lived in Kakuma for eight years, and we talked to her earlier this week.

BAHATI: If it closes, where will I go? But the past eight years I've built a piece of my life in Kakuma and if they take me somewhere else. If they tell me to go back to Congo, what do I have there? Everybody's dead, my family. Nothing to do there. I not go to school in Congo, so. If I go back, where would my life start? So I'm just praying that they have pity on us because we have nowhere to go back to.

MG: What is the plan for people like Bahati?

FILIPPO GRANDI: So Bahati is right. If they close those camps, as has been at one point announced by some ministers in the government, where would these people go? What we're now discussing with the government is how can we transform these camps from camps completely dependent on assistance, which every year is more difficult to mobilize camps that become a liability for the government of Kenya in terms of security. To settlements, almost villages this is what one minister said that can be more self-sustaining. So we are working more in that direction.

MG: Is that a semantic difference? I mean, again, you've hinted at what... The work that's going on to change those camps, but you're very insistent that the idea of building camps, for example, for the refugees who are fleeing Ukraine is not something that's on the table, and there are a bunch of reasons why neighbouring countries would not want camps. If you call them settlements, is that different?

FILIPPO GRANDI: Well, it doesn't matter what you call them, it's what they are that makes a difference. If by settlement, you mean what we are trying to do in Kakuma, for example? Yes, I think that's the way to go. You look at the country just next to Kenya. Uganda. Uganda hosts three times the number of refugees of Kenya 1.5 million. Uganda has never had a camp policy. Refugees can settle. They are given a piece of land, a small piece of land. They can cultivate this land, grow their food, they can send their children to schools, and they can use the public health system. Actually, Uganda has had remarkable stability from the point of hosting refugees because they have adopted this model. Naturally, a country like Uganda or Kenya don't have the resources to run this by themselves. These models cost money and need international and investment, but a different type of investment than from the humanitarian handouts. It's more developmental, if you wish.

MG: We're here in Canada, and we have, in some ways, a geographical advantage. The countries that are the closest to those in crisis often, as we've said, end up hosting the majority of the refugees. They have the fewest resources in many ways. What would a more equitable sharing of the responsibility for refugees look like around the world?

FILIPPO GRANDI: This is why it is good that Canada has a big resettlement program. One of the biggest. In fact, during the Trump administration years when the U.S. almost obliterated its own resettlement program, it was Canada that saved the day by having the biggest resettlement program in the world. And of course, Canada has this advantage of distance, has also the specificity of being a country in great need of immigration. This is very important. It's a mix of necessity and solidarity. And I think that Canada plays it very well. Of course, you know, everybody... I've given some interviews during my stay here, everybody saying, should Canada do more? Of course. What do you expect? I will always say any country, do more if you can. But I think that the direction in which Canada's travelling in that respect is very good.

MG: What does more look like from your perspective?

FILIPPO GRANDI: If I give you a figure, everybody will be scared. There's about... with the Ukrainians, there's about 95 million refugees and displaced around the world. Now, resettlement is for, essentially for refugees. There's about 30 million refugees around the world. We resettled in good years. We resettled between one and 200,000. So it's a speck in the overall responsibility sharing approach and the bulk stays in countries that are poor, that have other challenges. So I would like every country to double its resettlement program. But what Canada is doing, and this year again, it has increased. But one more thing I want to say. Let's not forget, even if the number of refugees resettled, transferred, you know, resettlement is a transfer... transferred around the world would double, triple. It would still be a small minority of the overall refugee population. So what is very important is also what Canada, like other donor countries does... Where the refugees are and stay or where the displaced people that do not benefit from resettlement are and stay. So that is really where I will continue to urge Canada and other countries to do more.

MG: What is the climate emergency going to do to the refugee crisis? How is that going to exacerbate what we've been talking about?

FILIPPO GRANDI: In many ways there is a bit of a simplistic view that there's a climate emergency... This causes refugees. Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, but I think that there are more complex ways, complex phenomena of displacement due to climate. One is a slow one, the rise of sea levels. I don't think you can call those people displaced by that refugees, but that requires an awful lot of planning for low-lying countries in particular...

MG: And is going to create a movement of the population.

FILIPPO GRANDI: And it's going to create movement, not refugees, but movement of population. But then you have a correlation that does create refugees in the proper sense, and that is where climate change depletes resources. We see this in the Horn of Africa, in West Africa, sometimes in Central America as well, in South Asia. And this decrease of resources in poor countries causes conflict between communities. We see it big time. I'm going in a couple of weeks to Chad in West Africa. There's 100000 refugees from Cameroon, just south of Chad, and they flee in this particular case, a conflict between two communities that is no doubt caused by the depletion of natural resources, especially water caused by climate change. So you see the correlation there.

MG: You said earlier that you are an optimist by nature.

FILIPPO GRANDI: Yes. But I also said that it's being tested, at this point, but we carry on. I draw a lot of strength from the strength and resolve of the people we work for. You know, refugees, by definition, are strong people. You know, we call them often vulnerable because they have huge vulnerabilities, but they're super strong people they have made... I always say they have made one of the most difficult decisions that any woman or man can make, leave everything behind. And go into the unknown, as we saw together those people doing at the Polish border, right? So they're strong people, and that strength gives me strength and that hope that many of them continue to have gives me hope.

MG: Filippo Grandi, it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you very much,

FILIPPO GRANDI: Thank you.

MG: Filippo Grandi is the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. That is The Current for this Wednesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Kakuma Rocks by Kakuma All Stars]

MG: We began today's special program with the sounds of the Kakuma refugee camp in Kenya. It's a place that's become home for the people there. They make friends, they start businesses, they visit their neighbours, they raise children. Some of whom have become celebrated artists. You're listening to Kakuma Rocks. This was recorded at the refugee camp in collaboration with Emmanuel Jal, who is now a Canadian musician and actor but was a child soldier in the Sudanese Civil War in the late 1980s. We'll leave you today with the sound of the Kakuma All Stars. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music: Kakuma Rocks by Kakuma All Stars]

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Wednesday April 13, 2022 Full Text Transcript

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