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The Current Transcript for March 28, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP: [Woman trying to speak through her tears]

MATT GALLOWAY: When the Taliban retook power in Afghanistan last summer, schools for girls were one of the first things to close, those schools were set to reopen. But when students and teachers arrived last week, they found the doors locked shut. In 30 minutes, what the ongoing suspension of girls education means for the future of Afghanistan and what Canada might do to help. Also this morning, it was a historic moment for Canada's men's soccer team. After 36 years on the sidelines the squad returns to the World Cup. We'll hear from someone who's been waiting a long time for this. Plus:

FIRST MALE SPEAKER: They have betrayed the rules and betrayed UCP members he should consider. The gracious thing to do would be to step down.

SECOND MALE SPEAKER: I think that there is no better person we have to lead this province.

MG: Has the moment passed for Jason Kenney as premier of Alberta? Many in his party want him gone. Others think he deserves to keep his job. In an hour inside the fight that threatens not just Kenney, but his entire party. We start, though, in Italy and the search for an apology. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Pope Francis meets with Métis residential school survivors in Rome

Guest: Cassidy Caron and Duncan McCue

ANGIE CRERAR: I want the last graves, I would like to see the children that were buried. It's a shame, these children have the right to have a name and identity. And I would like to see if the Pope would come to help us work together.

MG: This week could be historic for survivors of Catholic residential schools like Angie Crerar from Grand Prairie, the Métis elder is part of a delegation of indigenous leaders, elders and youth who are in Rome to meet with Pope Francis. They had hoped to meet last December, but rising COVID numbers changed that. Now the delegates are finally at the Vatican to speak their truth and hear from the Pope. Before we get into this discussion, a warning: this conversation will be difficult for some listeners. Cassidy Caron is president of the Métis National Council, and she is in St. Peter's Square in Rome. Cassidy, good morning.

CASSIDY CARON: Hi there.

MG: You have just finished meeting with Pope Francis. What did you and your delegation say to the Pope?

CC: We spent the time that we had with Pope Francis really elevating the voices of our survivors, and we brought three Métis residential school survivors with us into the meeting and the the majority of the time that we spent with Pope Francis was them sharing their truths as survivors of residential schools, as Métis people. And after those three shared their stories, I delivered a message on behalf of the Métis National Council and the Métis nation that we really had spent many months working on throughout the time leading up to this trip.

MG: What can you tell me about that message? What did you say directly to the Pope?

CC: We invited Pope Francis to join us on our journey for truth, reconciliation, healing and justice, all of these pieces. The Métis nation is already working on and there's a role for the Pope to play. There is a role for the Catholic Church to play. So we invited Pope Francis on our journey for truth, reconciliation, justice and healing.

MG: What did the Pope say back to you?

CC: The Pope, he spoke back to us in his language and there was a translator and he acknowledged that he was listening to the stories of our survivors. He recognized who we are as Métis people and some of the culture that he understands, that we bring with us. The only words that he actually spoke back to us in English was an acknowledgement of that invitation that we have given to him. And he spoke back to us in English. Truth, justice and healing. And he said, I take that as my personal responsibility. And so those were the words that he spoke back to us in English on top of a lengthier statement from Pope Francis.

MG: Was there an apology?

CC: There was not an apology.

MG: What would an apology mean to you?

CC: To me or to the Métis nation? I mean, for me, coming here, I met with a number of survivors, Métis residential school survivors, to prepare for this trip. And many of our survivors are in different stages of their healing journeys. And some of them have told me that they're at the stage in their healing journey where they really need this acknowledgement from the Pope, from the Catholic Church that they played a role in the harms and the wrongdoings to these children, to our families and to our communities, and that they're at this point in their healing journeys that they need this to be able to move on to continue healing. And so that's what I... That's what I brought with me today, recognizing that that acknowledgement and that apology will support the healing of the Métis nation.

MG: It is your expectation that the belief is that the pope will come to Canada at some point in time that when Pope Francis does come to Canada, that perhaps an apology would follow then?

CC: That's what we are hoping. We do have a commitment from Pope Francis that he will be travelling to Canada within the context of reconciliation. And it is during that time that we hope that he will be in front of our survivors and their families and in our communities and provide that apology and provide that acknowledgement.

MG: How would you describe the mood in the room as... as you mentioned, the elders shared their stories and their truths, and the Pope listened?

CC: So it was definitely... It was heavy. Every time our survivors tell their truth, it is hard to hear. There were tears, but we are as Métis people very, very proud of who we are and where we come from. And when we left the meeting today, that's the feeling that we held on to as Métis people. We're proud to still be here, proud of our culture and our heritage, and to have our elders and our survivors surrounding us today. It really, you know, that was the mood that we wanted to leave with, and it's somewhat hopeful. But it's also just that feeling of pride and pride in who we are.

MG: You wrote about this before you travelled to Rome for this meeting. Tell me more about the Métis experience and why it's important for you to represent the community in this way to be there specifically at this meeting.

CC: So, we as a Métis nation have a lot of work to do to understand our truth, to understand the full experience of Métis residential school experiences, and we're starting to do that work. Our Métis governments have been starting to collect the stories of our survivors. Our academics are starting to piece together the records that tell the stories of our communities and what was happening. But we still have a long way to go. We don't know exactly how many residential school survivors were Métis. We don't know how many of those, those unmarked graves, we don't know how many of those children are Métis. And we have a lot of work to do to really find out what that truth is. And without truth, we can't have reconciliation. So we're in that stage right now. And of course, there's a role for the Catholic Church to play in providing unfettered access to those records so that we can have those truths. And again, back to an apology. It starts there and then we hope to see so many more actions follow. So we're delivering all of those messages to Pope Francis. We spent a lot of time meeting with Métis residential school survivors, intergenerational trauma survivors and community members to make sure that we were representing the Métis nation to the best of our abilities. The diversity in perspectives we really sought to ensure were reflected in our messages today.

MG: That's a lot to carry to a meeting like that. A lot of responsibility.

CC: Yeah, absolutely it is, it is an immense responsibility that I carry and I recognize that, but with the support of our community members and the support of our elders and survivors here today has been incredible. And we, you know, we don't take this responsibility lightly.

MG: What happens next? A meeting as important as a meeting is, is just one step. And so when you talk about truth and justice and healing, what do you want to see come in days and weeks after this?

CC: So, of course, we have the general audience that's happening on Friday, and I thought, audience, there will be all of our delegates from the Métis National Council, the AFN and the IPK. We will be hearing from Pope Francis at that time. And you know, there's four days between now and then. And so we really hope that the Pope listens and hears and acknowledges and digest those stories that he's hearing to really create the statement that he's going to be delivering to us at that time. We don't know what that statement might look like. We don't know what the Pope's journey to Canada might look like, but we know for ourselves that there's a lot of work to do. We as the Métis nation will come home and continue to work on healing and justice and reconciliation and truth just as we already have been. And we hope that the Pope and the Catholic Church sees and hears and then commits to action and wants to follow along that journey with us.

MG: You are part of the next generation. And I'm wondering, as people talk about the idea of reconciliation, this larger than life and sometimes words, what will lead you to reconciliation and what will you take from what you're experiencing this week?

CC: Hmm. So for me, I have a vision of a future where our generations are so proud to be Métis, so proud to say who they are. They speak their language. They know their culture, they know their history and they're proud to talk about that. And so reconciliation for me is doing everything that we can to make it a future for our future Métis generations, a bright and happy, sustainable and prosperous future for them. And so all of these pieces that we are working on at the Métis National Council, this journey today, that's contributing to that future. And yeah, it's been an honour.

MG: Now you said you left the meeting feeling hopeful in some ways.

CC: I do and again, that just comes down to being reminded and being surrounded by our community members and our elders and survivors, their resilience is just so powerful and to be with them and to hear their stories and for them to be here and so courageous in telling their stories, it's hard not to be proud to be Métis because they've gone through so much and for them to be here today and wanting to share their stories, that's because they love who they are. They love the Métis people. They love the Métis nation and being surrounded by that, love it. It gives me the passion to want to continue this work and see positive outcomes for our people.

MG: I'm really glad to talk to you this morning. Thank you very much and good luck this week.

CC: Thank you so much.

MG: Cassidy Caron is president of the Métis National Council. Duncan McCue is a long time senior reporter and host on CBC programs. He's also the host of a CBC podcast on residential schools that will launch later this spring. He is with me in studio. Duncan, good morning.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Good morning.

MG: What are you thinking as you listen to Cassidy Caron?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Such strong leadership from Cassidy Caron for sure. And I think it will be very meaningful for those in the delegation who have gone to the Vatican to meet with the Pope. I'm getting a sense of deja vu all over again, though. This, you know, this is not new. It happened in 2009. Phil Fontaine and the Assembly of First Nation, then the head of the Assembly of First Nations, went with the delegation to the Vatican, to the then pope, to, you know, share their truths. And at that time, the pope expressed sorrow over the Catholic Church's role in residential schools. Phil Fontaine came out of that meeting and said it was very meaningful for the delegation that was there. But the question is, I mean, what kind of comfort do survivors here in Canada take from these kinds of trips?

MG: What is the span of perspective that you have heard from indigenous communities across this country when it comes to these meetings, there isn't obviously a uniform response to what's going on. But give us a sense as to the range of responses to this.

DUNCAN MCCUE: I think you're exactly right that there isn't a uniform response, and that's really important to understand. There are a large number of indigenous people who are Catholic. About 25 percent of indigenous people are Catholic, and so the Pope is their spiritual leader. The Pontiff, his words carry import for them, and they are going to be watching what Pope Francis has to say, the gestures that he gives to this delegation. And for some, this... An apology, if it comes, will be an important symbolic gesture toward healing. You heard Cassidy Caron say that. Those Métis elders are hoping that this will be an important step for them. There are others who are still extremely angry for what the church had done to survivors and the children of survivors. And, you know, burn it all down. You hear that. I spoke with an elder yesterday who is very, very Christian, and she just laughed when I asked her about it and said, It's a big show. And from her perspective, this was a distraction from what she says. You know, we should be looking for bad guys. This is the way she termed it.

MG: There are calls for this apology. As Cassidy Caron mentioned, the apology didn't come yet, perhaps later this week, perhaps if and when the Pope comes to Canada. There are also people who say that's just the beginning and there needs to be much more, including financial reparations for survivors and their families. How important will it be for the Catholic Church to come through with that money?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Have you been to the Vatican?

MG: I have not.

DUNCAN MCCUE: One of the things that you, if you go, it's astonishing to see the art and the architecture, but the wealth of the place. And I'm sure that that opulence is going to be noted by the delegation that is there because here in Canada, you know, the quest for reparations from the Catholic Church has been difficult to say the least. You know, the Catholic Church as part of the Indian Residential Schools Agreement agreed to pay to survivors cash $29 million in cash, $25 million of in-kind services 25.... They agreed to fundraise another $25 million. Those commitments have not been met yet, and in fact, the Catholic Church went to court to draw itself out of those commitments. You know, when you look at the $29 million in payments, much of it was eaten up by administrative costs, legal costs, paying lawyers. When you look at the $25 million of fundraising, just a portion of it was raised. The church said it was unable to reach out to its members and cried poverty, essentially. And so we're talking about an apology today. You know, even if the apology comes, the question has to be asked: how sincere is the apology when the church seems to be more keen to pay lawyers than they do to pay survivors? And so the need when it comes to financial reparations is just so great. Talking with First Nations, they don't have counsellors. Survivors don't have counsellors in their communities to go to when these, you know, you do a trigger warning at the beginning of these. Well, when they hear these stories on the radio, they don't have anybody to turn to in their communities. You heard Cassidy Caron say there's so much information we don't know. First Nations, you know, and Métis communities don't have archivists and researchers to try to dig out this information from the records. They want to build memorials to their dead children, and they don't have money to do that. So you ask about reparations. I think the apology is one thing, but this conversation is going to continue until the Catholic Church starts to address some of those questions.

MG: And the records are incredibly important. You know this from the work that you have been doing on this podcast, how difficult has it been for you to get the documents that would help inform the work that you're doing?

DUNCAN MCCUE: So I have a bias. I'm a journalist, and so I believe that information about the history of residential schools should be freely available to all Canadians.

MG: I'm not sure that that's a bias. I think that that's just the needs that you have to have for the work.

DUNCAN MCCUE: But I mean, I'll put it this way. The National Centre for the Truth Reconciliation. They are the keeper of records. That is their legal role. Incredibly helpful people. But they are so overworked. They are so under-resourced, and we have spent months and months and months trying to get records just for one school that we still can't get. You can't, you know, there are so many frustrating examples I'll give you one. Sisters of Saint Anne is an order of nuns that was involved in running several schools in British Columbia. They said they turned over all their records multiple years ago, but I happen to know that their records are sitting in a box in Victoria at the Royal B.C. Museum because no one has the time or the energy or the effort or the resources to conclude agreements with First Nations to be able to digitize the records. So they're all sitting there. No one can get access to them. I mean the Catholic Church says that it has turned over its records, but we're still waiting for the Codex Historicus, which is the daily diaries of the people who ran the schools. We're still waiting for the personnel files. They have not released for privacy reasons, they say. Records of who worked. And it is incredibly difficult to try to even ascertain in terms of double sourcing information, for example, about even who worked at the school. So, you know, it's easy to shirk accountability when they won't share the records.

MG: Just do you think... We only have a minute and a half or so left. Do you think the context of when these meetings are being held in light of what this country went through last summer, does that change the urgency at all?

DUNCAN MCCUE: It has to. And but it also begs the question why has this taken so long? I mean the United Church, the Anglican Church, the Presbyterian Church. Apologies came quite quickly. I won't say quickly, but you know, all of those churches apologized from the highest order of their church. The Catholic Church, because it's not a unified entity in Canada, there's been this patchwork of statement of regrets and apologies from certain dioceses, but they seem unable to to be able to convince or recognize the importance of it coming from the Pope. An apology coming from the Pope and we saw the Pope apologize in Ireland for the role that the Catholic Church... in abuse in schools in Ireland. Why has the Vatican been silent about its role for so long in tens of thousands of children in Catholic run schools and the harms that they experienced here in Canada?

MG: A question that people will be asking this week and certainly in weeks to come. Duncan, thank you.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Thank you.

MG: Duncan McCue, the host of a CBC podcast on residential schools that podcast will launch this spring. If you are a residential school survivor or you have experienced intergenerational trauma, there is a number that you can call to speak with someone. The residential school crisis line is 1-866-925-4419, 866-925-4419. And we'll have more of our coverage of the delegation in Rome all this week on The Current. Your CBC News is next. And then:

MALALA YOUSAFZAI: I would just ask the Taliban one thing like show me an Islamic teaching where it says that a girl can't get knowledge, where it says a girl can't learn. In fact, Islam teaches me that it is rather my duty, it is compulsory for me to seek knowledge.

MG: Malala Yousafzai has questions for the Taliban, and so do Afghan activists. After the Taliban went back on their promise to let girls learn. In six minutes, we'll hear from women fighting for access to education in Afghanistan. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Taliban breaks promise over girls’ education

Guests: Salma, Hayta and Heather Barr

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Alberta Premier Jason Kenney is facing the ire of his own caucus. A leadership review moved to a mail in ballot, a secret recording made public. We'll dive into the problems plaguing the not so united conservative party in just under 30 minutes. But first girls education in the Taliban's Afghanistan is over before it ever began.

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MG: When the Taliban returned to power in Afghanistan last year, leaders promised that their thinking had changed and girls would be allowed to go to school. Last Wednesday was supposed to be the first day back in class after months of delays. Shortly after girls sat down, however, teachers were told the Taliban would now forbid school for girls past the sixth grade. Salma is a high school teacher. Hayta is a Grade 12 student. We've changed Hayta's name to protect her identity. They're both in Kabul. Hello.

BOTH: Hello, Mr. Matt.

MG: Salma, tell me, when did you find out that your school was being closed by the Taliban? That it would not open up as you thought?

SALMA: It was during our second hour of studying which headmistress come and tell us with tears in her eyes that we can't continue. And the Taliban tell that we must stop the studying and leave school soon. Everybody will be shocked and start crying. The students didn't believe this news after seven months that once again, they will be at home indefinite. They really missed your teachers and their school.

MG: What was your reaction? You talked about the students being shocked. What was your reaction?

SALMA: I was really [inaudible] because some morning we go to school with happiness, and when we go... When I see my students, I was glad. But when the headmistress said that we could not continue our teaching, I really cried. It was bad news.

MG: You were happy, you said when you saw those students.

SALMA: Yeah, when I see my students, I mean, I was really happy because I really miss them.

MG: Hayta, you have been out of school since August.

HAYTA: Yeah.[x3]

MG: What were you hoping for in going back to school? What were you looking forward to?

HAYTA: There's no way to study. Some people of our own language on education. Education is really difficult in the liberal countries and it's almost impossible for Afghan girls in situations like this because we have no material for online education. It's really hard for Afghan girls.

MG: And so what happened when you went to the school this week?

HAYTA: When I go to school, I see the door of the school is closed. Everyone's crying. I see my... Everyone said my classes is really, really sad for that school and we can't go to school. We can't do the study.

MG: You said that everybody was crying at the door.

HAYTA: Yes, everyone, everyone, me. When I see the doors closed, I really cry. It's too hard for us. We can't understand that time to [inaudible]. The door is closed for us. It's too hard for everyone.

MG: Salma, what has the Taliban government said about why girls are not allowed to attend school after grade six?

SALMA: Actually, has I think the Taliban just excused because they say the uniform is not Islamic. This is an excuse the Taliban did, not their policy. We are Muslim and our clothes were be Islamic before they are coming. We just want from the Taliban that [inaudible] still has their policy and we will follow the rules. We need to start so soon. As you know, it's two years that we are back from our knowledge because of coronavirus. And it's a big problem for our country, for our students, for our daughters, for our sisters. And this time we just want from the Taliban that they still has an idea that what should we do?

MG: What are you worried about the most when it comes to the fact that your students have been out of school?

SALMA: My big worry is about is that our country cannot improve. If we can continue our education, we can make our country because this country need the youths, male and females. We must be in society. We must work. We must continue our education. We need to be free. We need to live like a human.

MG: Is it possible for girls to have any other way to get that education without being in class, Salma.

SALMA: Actually without helping the other countries. I don't think that it will be possible. We just need from Canada government and other countries to share with Taliban leaders. Without help we can't face the Taliban, and we cannot do anything because they change the rule or soon. And the Taliban have not fulfilled with the other any of their commitments so far.

MG: What does this mean for you as a teacher? This is your job. Are you still being paid even though you can't teach in the classroom?

SALMA: When they didn't allow me to teach I didn't stop my job. I will teach in home. I will teach online. We will find another way to share our advice with our students because as I know and as I see all the Afghan girls, love to study, love to improve, and they can't stop. As even they didn't allow us to go for school. Even they didn't allow us to go in the classroom and teach for our students. We will find another way. We will teach them in home. We will teach them online. We will teach them in other ways.

MG: Hayta, what do you love about school?

HAYTA: I do like my study. I like my... I want to improve my country because the country is not really improving country. We want... The all of the girls want that, our country to be a really big, big and very improved country. But we want our country, a good country. And right now, our country is not really good. Our country is really bad for each other and it's not impossible to achieve with the regime in this time. We can't accept that time.

MG: Do you have a favourite subject in school?

HAYTA: My favourite subject is in the biology.

MG: Biology?

HAYTA: Biology, yeah.

MG: Yeah. What do you love about that?

HAYTA: I want... I want to be a doctor in the future because I want to help my country, poor people and they can't go to the big hospitals. I want to make good hospitals for that. Poor pupils to come there and they get healthy again.

MG: What is life like for you as a young woman in Afghanistan right now?

HAYTA: Life is right now really difficult for us and without... maybe without education our life is really disabled and also our society is really a backward society.

MG: A backward society?

HAYTA: Yeah, now.

MG: It's been a big change because you were in school and now you can't go to school. How difficult is that for you?

HAYTA: I can't go to school. It's really difficult for me because we have a dream. We have a want for education. We have a want to study. We improve our country, but in that time, we can't improve our country because we can't education. Education is really important for us. But right now Taliban don't give me time to education and improve our country.

MG: Salma, what's it like for you to hear Hayta say that? That she sees her generation as the future of the country and she worries about the country sliding backwards?

SALMA: Actually, everyone in this situation is worried. Everyone have expressed in Afghanistan. We did not have any future. We did not have any future. We can't continue our job. We can continue our studying. Actually, the Taliban did not see a woman, a human. They did not act with us like a human. They gave our opportunities.

MG: You mentioned that you want Canada to pressure the Taliban. What would you want to hear from this country?

SALMA: We want from Canada government to pressure with Taliban. Tell them that please let their Afghan woman to their works. Please let them to continue their education. Please, let us to make our future.

MG: Where do you find hope, Hayta, in the situation that you're in? Where are you finding hope right now?

HAYTA: I don't have any hope, because right now we are in the hole. We don't go to school. We don't go cause we can't. I can't go out.

MG: Salma, that's really hard to hear that she does not have any hope. Where are you finding hope in this?

SALMA: Actually, I don't know. But we must be strong and continue our life in addition to being a teacher at school, I was a student in university in six semester of law and politics. But after a year coming, I faced with a lot of problems, especially financially. I lost my job after this I can't support my family. I lost my dreams. My hopes, but never I lost myself.

MG: Never, you lost yourself.

SALMA: Yeah, even I can continue my education now. But they did not allow has to be continue our education. They just want to remove all our efforts and we don't have any future, any dream, any improvement in Afghanistan. All we just want from Islamic government is to allow us to get education. It has to be and live like a human, let us to work in society. This country needs more educated women.

MG: Salma, I'm very glad to talk to you. Thank you very much for speaking with us.

SALMA: Thank you so much.

MG: And Hayta, I hope you're back in school very soon.

HAYTA: I hope so too. Thank you, Matt.

MG: Bye bye. Thank you very much.

SALMA: Thank you so much. Bye.

MG: Salma is a high school teacher. Hayta is a Grade 12 student. They were both in Kabul. Heather Barr is associate women's rights director at Human Rights Watch. She's in Islamabad, Pakistan. Heather, hello to you.

HEATHER BARR: Hi, thanks.

MG: It's heartbreaking. Listening to a Grade 12 student say that she has no hope for the future.

HEATHER BARR: Yeah, we've been hearing this over and over again for the last seven and a half months from every woman, every girl we talk to pretty much. I can't tell you how many people sound suicidal. And there was a little bit of hope last week, you know, because the Taliban had said again and again that they were going to open the schools as recently as Monday, and then it made what happened on Wednesday. Feel even more cruel than it would have if they hadn't been making those promises.

MG: What is the Taliban afraid of, do you think?

HEATHER BARR: I don't think the Taliban are afraid of something, I think the Taliban are true believers that there's this kind of perfect world that they're going to create, and it's a world without women. It's a world in which women don't go outside and don't have a role in public life and don't learn and work. And yeah, it's a world of men. And I don't know... It's interesting because there's no one else that shares this vision, but they seem very certain about it.

MG: In that context. How concerned are you about the safety of women in Afghanistan who are speaking out and talking about what they aren't getting and why this puts, from their perspective, the future of the country at risk?

HEATHER BARR: So I'm absolutely terrified for the protesters. You know, we started seeing girls protesting on Wednesday morning. And you know, on the one hand, you think how wonderful, how brave, how courageous, how incredible of them. And on the other hand, you're just terrified for their safety because, you know, women have been protesting against the rollback of women's rights by the Taliban pretty much since about August 17th, about two days after the Taliban took over. And the Taliban's response has been brutal from the beginning, beating protesters, intimidating them, threatening them, beating very severely, journalists who covered the protests. But the response has escalated in the last couple of months. You know, we've seen them pepper spraying protesters and abducting protesters, detaining them, lying and saying they don't know where the detained women are, extracting forced confessions from them. Obviously, there have been real abuses while they were detained. And so one of the things that we want to ask the international community to do, including Canada, is to watch so carefully what's happening to these protesters and do anything they can to protect them by speaking out and making it clear that if women and girls disappear, it won't go unremarked.

MG: Tell me more about that. Both Salma and Hayta made specific pleas for Canada to help. What is it that a country like Canada could do in the face of this?

HEATHER BARR: So, you know, there are four countries in the world that both sent troops to Afghanistan in the last 20 years and have committed to having a feminist foreign policy. And those countries are Canada, France, Germany and Sweden. And I think part of what's happened over the last seven and a half months since the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan is that we've seen a real lack of leadership in the international community, a lack of coordination, a lack of political will. And I think part of that is because, you know, for the last 20 years, the U.S. played such a dominant role in sort of driving the international presence in Afghanistan, militarily and on the civilian side as well. And then I think since August 15th, the U.S. has just abdicated. They've just sort of stepped away, and the White House doesn't seem to feel much sense of responsibility or much interest about what's happening in Afghanistan. And so we need somebody to step in and fill that space. And we're really looking to Canada and these other three countries to do that because there is no women's rights crisis more serious on the planet than what's happening right now in Afghanistan. And the last time we saw a women's rights crisis, this serious it was in 1996 when the Taliban took over the last time. And so for me, it really kind of begs the question of, you know, if feminist foreign policy doesn't mean standing up for, you know, women and girls like the two you just interviewed. What does it mean?

MG: If you're talking about education in particular, I mean, what specifically could Canada do to help support the education of Afghan girls and young women when that is not being permitted by the Taliban, when the doors are being locked to the schools?

HEATHER BARR: Well, it's really difficult. I think, you know, there are funding decisions that you can make like, for example, you have to not fund parts of the education system that are discriminating. You have to look at what kinds of education can still go on, which includes, you know, maybe some private schools, maybe some community based education classes. I mean, I agree with your previous guest about the limits of online education in places like Afghanistan, where so few people have devices and internet and people are so poor. But there are some options... But I think, you know, when the teacher was talking about pressure, that's actually at least as important as sort of specific efforts to support education. There needs to be a united effort by the whole international community to really send a clear message to the Taliban every day in every interaction that they will never be a legitimate government. They will never be respected as long as they're engaging in this type of abuse toward women and girls. And so there's things that can happen, like removing the exemption to the travel ban that some Taliban leaders have had standing, having overseas meetings with them, ending high level meetings, ending photo ops with them. There's been a lot of things that have happened over the last seven and a half months that have made the Taliban feel like they're quite accepted and what they're doing is okay and that has to stop too.

MG: It speaks to the issue of engagement. I mean, what should the relationship... Given the context that you're talking about, what should the relationship between, say, the Canadian government and the Taliban be? Should there be any relationship whatsoever?

HEATHER BARR: So I don't think there's anything to be gained by not engaging with the Taliban. And I think in fact, countries including Canada, need to engage with them because there's also a devastating humanitarian crisis happening in Afghanistan, with more than 90 percent of people not having enough food to eat. And that's a humanitarian crisis that's been driven by decisions made by foreign donors, particularly the United States, but other countries as well, in cutting off aid and withdrawing recognition of the Afghan central bank, blocking access to Afghanistan's reserves, et cetera. And so, you know, people are literally starving to death because of decisions made in foreign capitals, and there has to be an urgent effort to remedy that. But you can engage in different ways. You can engage in ways that don't make the Taliban look like they're a legitimate counterpart to your government.

MG: I just wonder whether you can engage and address that humanitarian crisis in concert with the issue of education, whether you see that as the whole of approach, in some ways. That if we are going to, we, the global community, are going to engage with you. This is about food. This is about education. This is about the rights of everyone in this country.

HEATHER BARR: I think it's hard to, you know, walk and chew gum at the same time, but it's not impossible. And what it takes is, you know, some real coordinated effort, some real focused thought, and it has to be a real priority. And I don't think it should be that hard because if you look at the response after the Taliban, you know, extended that ban on secondary education on Wednesday, you had Qatar and Turkey condemning them, you had the OIC saying that, you know, this was terrible. You had an emergency discussion at the Security Council. I mean, there isn't a single other country in the world that will defend this type of behaviour. And so there seems to be a total consensus that what they're doing is wrong. You just need to turn that into some, some concerted action where everyone agrees, OK, you know, we're not going to send private jets for the Taliban anymore, which is something that happened a month or two ago. For example,

MG: Hayta talked about the fact that she feels her country is going backwards. From your perspective, what's at stake here?

HEATHER BARR: Everything, everything. I mean, the lives of these girls, the lives of these women, the future of the country, you know. I mean, Afghanistan spent 20 years trying to recover from five years of Taliban rule, and they and they hadn't made it. They made a lot of progress, but they were still struggling to recover. And here we are back here again. And part of what's so heartbreaking about I mean, I think both of the young women you talk to is that this is a generation that grew up sort of in the shadow of the Taliban. They grew up hearing about the experiences that their mothers and older sisters and grandmothers had during those five years from 1996 to 2001. And I think, you know, I've met a lot of young women who I think were driven by that to, like, work harder, study harder, go out, be more ambitious, like have sort of grand ambitions for how they were going to remake their country as the student you talked to said. And then all of that has been sort of ripped away from them overnight by the exact same group that did this to the women in their family before.

MG: And so just in the remaining minute that we have, end with where we started. Where do you see hope in this situation?

HEATHER BARR: Well, you can't take away education that people already have in their heads, can you? You know, you can't take away the ideas that people have already had, the achievements they've already had. And I think, you know, there is hope in this young generation of Afghans. But all of us need to do more to support them in the very hard fight that's ahead of them.

MG: Heather, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

HEATHER BARR: Thank you.

MG: Heather Barr, associate director of the women's rights division at Human Rights Watch. She was in Islamabad, Pakistan. Well, coming up after your regional update.

MALE VOICE: SOUNDCLIP: [He drove around in a blue truck acting like the everyman with his blue jeans on his top button undone. And then once he got elected, the Ottawa elite came out of him.]

MG: That is the sound of dissension in the ranks of Alberta's United Conservative Party. Perhaps not so united, after all. Jason Kenney is facing a review of his leadership. In 90 seconds, the crisis in the UCP and the Canadian men taking the lead from the Canadian women when it comes to soccer. The men are off to the World Cup. We'll talk about a long, long wait. What this means for soccer in Canada. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Back in just a minute. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Inside Jason Kenney’s fight to save his UCP

Guests: Rob Smith and Mike Solberg

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. Alberta Premier Jason Kenney is getting a bit of a reprieve, but he is still fighting for his political life. A leadership review was originally set to happen in the coming days in Red Deer. Now it will be conducted through mail in ballot instead. That decision incensed some United Conservative Party members, who felt it was a dodge from a premier facing a very difficult vote.

MALE SPEAKER: You can't change the rules midway through a process. It is not democratic and it's underhanded. This is not a penny ocracy. This is Alberta and grassroots Albertans run the show.

ANOTHER MALE SPEAKER: The gracious thing to do would be to step down and to support a new leader.

MG: Those are UCP MLAs talking about party leader Jason Kenney, and then this from the premier himself, secretly recorded by a UCP staffer and passed along to the CBC.

JASON KENNEY: SOUNDCLIP: [The lunatics are trying to take over the asylum. And I am left, I will not let that happen. I will not let this mainstream Conservative Party become an agent for extreme, painful, intolerant, bigoted craziness.]

MG: It's a bit hard to hear, but that was Jason Kenney on why he wants to stay on as leader because in his words, "the lunatics are trying to take over the asylum", and he wants to protect the party from being taken over by people with, in his words, "bigoted and crazy views". We're joined now by two Alberta conservatives Rob Smith, president of the UCP Constituency Association in Old Didsbury Three Hills. We've reached him near the town of Olds, north of Calgary. And Mike Solberg is on the line from Calgary, where he is a partner at New West Public Affairs and a former political staffer in the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Good morning to you, both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MG: Let's ask the question Rob Smith, should Jason Kenney stay or does he need to go?

ROB SMITH: He needs to go.

MG: That's pretty blunt.

ROB SMITH: Well in the eyes of the Olds Didsbury Three Hills constituents, and I think a fair number of Albertans, if he is not actually willing to have a fair leadership review, one that he is not dictating the terms per his autocracy of the UCP provincial board of directors, then he just needs to go.

MG: I'll come back to the review in a moment. Mike Solberg, does he need to go or does Jason Kenny deserve a second chance, if I can put it that way?

MIKE SOLBERG: Well, I think he certainly deserves to go through this leadership review and have the UCP membership ultimately decide his fate in his tenure as leader. I think he's done an enormous amount of work for this party, including party unification, and he certainly deserves to have his political future decided by the membership. And that is yet to come. They certainly are going to debate the merits of that, that process.

MG: This review has been described by one MLA as a spectacle and a circus. Mike, how do you see this review in terms of how it's taking shape and the fact that it keeps changing in terms of what that shape is going to look like?

MIKE SOLBERG: Yeah, sure. I mean, it certainly hasn't been good for the party to see this type of division that we've been seeing over the past many months. And I think we're all looking forward... regardless of kind of what side of which camp you identify with, we're all looking forward to putting this behind us. And I think this review will ultimately do a lot in moving in that direction. I think the debate today is just simply on the merits of the process itself. Frankly, I think it's a healthy debate. We have so much enthusiasm and passion within the UCP membership, and they want to participate in these political party processes. And now we're just trying to find an adequate way for them to do it.

MG: Rob, healthy debate?

ROB SMITH: Oh, I think that's absolutely true. If it were in fact a debate which it isn't, we have a very autocratic provincial board of directors. The idea of every member in the province having the opportunity to have their say was proposed by a number... in fact, I would say over half of the constituencies that actually have an elected UCP representative throughout 2021 and into early 2022. We wanted to have voting in each constituency. We wanted one central location in each constituency where every member could freely come and actually cast their ballot. That was refused because what we were told by President Cynthia Miller with the support of the board of directors was that one ballot box with one returning officer in one location was the only way that membership would have trust in the process and ultimately then support the integrity of the result. And that is absolutely not what is happening. The idea of every member of the party in the province voting isn't the issue that Olds Didsbury Three Hills and so many other constituency associations have. It's that this provincial board of directors wants to change the terms of how the thing is going to happen based on the whim or the will of Premier Kenney. The idea that 20,000 people couldn't get through Westerner Park, for example, to vote on Saturday, April 9th is ludicrous.

MG: And so, Mike, when you hear people like Rob say that this is not a Kenney ocracy, this is Alberta. What do you make of that?

MIKE SOLBERG: Well, I had full throatedly disagree. I think that the position that the party executive took into moving that process to mail in ballot, expanding the franchise to all UCP members, not cost prohibitive and without requiring kind of an in-person ballot in Red Deer is good for the party. In fact, I think it's good for the people who have been kind of Kenney opponents leading up to this. I mean, we've seen a number of kind of the more prolific ones Brian Jean included wanting all members to be able to participate in this process, worried about cost prohibition participating in this process. And that's no longer the case. And I think it was done for very good reason. There were legitimate safety, security and logistical concerns with hosting up to 20,000 people at a single location. We've seen other issues at other AGM that were far less attended, as this one would have been then had their own logistical challenges, and this one certainly would have been entirely disrupted by that many people. So I think the move made absolute sense. And frankly, I don't see the issue, and I think it's good for the party. And if people want to go out and oust the Premier, where he is at the leadership of this party, they have an opportunity to do so. In fact, tens of thousands of more people now have that opportunity.

MG: Let's talk about the ousting, such as it may be. Jason Kenney we heard in that secretly recorded speech that he gave says that there are extreme elements within this party trying to push him out, along with what he frames as mainstream conservatism. Rob, who's he talking about?

ROB SMITH: Well, I have a tough time understanding who he's talking about, but if you want the truth, I think he's just talking about anybody who doesn't buy into his perspective on what the party and therefore the province is moving toward.

MG: Do you feel like he's talking about you?

ROB SMITH: Oh, absolutely he is because I oppose him and he's talking about everybody who opposes him. And I think if you talk to anybody who knows me, none of those euphemisms he uses has ever at all attributed to me. You know, he talks about Prime Minister Trudeau and the politics of division. Well, I'm going to tell you right now, the disunity in the party is absolutely because of Premier Kenney and his inability to listen to grass roots, his complete lack of desire to do so. And the comments that you actually showed at the preface to our discussion this morning from MLA from [inaudible], I think it is, is absolutely true. The grassroots guarantee that was an absolute sham. It was to get elected in 2019 and then that Ottawa insider talk to who I want to talk to, pay no attention to everybody else and I guess now call them all racists and extremists. That's the approach.

MG: To go back to his comments. So he says that his mainstream conservatism is being pushed out the window, that it's not just him, that it's the idea of what it means to be a conservative in the province is being altered somewhere. You don't see that?

ROB SMITH: I absolutely do not see that. My board of directors is 31 people, including our MLA made up of about a third, former Wildrose people, about a third, former progressive conservative people and then a third that weren't really affiliated with either of those parties before we became UCP. When we sit around and we are virtually unanimous in our opposition to Premier Kenney, there is no extremism. There is none of this. There is nothing but mainstream conservativism. Absolutely.

MG: Mike, if you use the language of Jason Kenney or the lunatics trying to take over here?

MIKE SOLBERG: Well, I certainly think there's a risk in that. And I think all big catch, all large 10 parties have that risk inherent in them, certainly one that is active as large as the UCP. At one point, there was two hundred thousand members of this party, which would have made it the largest subnational and frankly, one of the largest parties in the country period. And I think certainly, you know, good, reasonable political folk like Rob and I'm sure many members of his board. They're not the problem, but we'd be doing ourselves a great disservice to not acknowledge that there are nefarious forces who would like to be part of this party.

MG: Nefarious forces, what do you mean?

MIKE SOLBERG: Just that same types of folks that the premiere read many comments that he's seen on his Facebook page from at his press conference last Friday. There is a radical fringe to this party like there is any party, but that doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't take steps to ensure that they are not empowered in their ability to dictate the direction of this party and the way that... especially considering that so many people worked so hard to bring it to where it is today.

MG: And do you believe those elements are trying to push him out?

MIKE SOLBERG: Absolutely. I think that's obvious. And I think some of the premier's political opponents are trying to harness that support in their efforts to remove him as leader. I think that's dangerous. And I think the premier is right in trying to combat some of those views and ensure that the broader voice of the party is heard and has the ability to participate in this process, not just the fringe groups that had so far dictated so much of the discourse from the no vote side.

MG: Rob, how much support do you think Jason Kenney has from Albertans?

ROB SMITH: Well, you know, honestly, Matt, I think when you look at what the provincial polling has been showing in terms of support for Jason Kenney across the province, they're pretty darn close to accurate. And I recognize that there's some areas where he'll be a little more popular and there'll be some areas where he's a little less popular in Olds Didsbury Three Hills. You won't go anywhere and find much other than a smattering of support for Premier Kenney.

MG: And what's at the root of that, do you think?

ROB SMITH: What's at the root of it is his inability to truly connect with Albertans, his inability to actually listen to what Albertans have to say. You know, the very distanced reasoning why Jim Prentice was ultimately rejected? I mean, yes. In fact, it was part of the conservative dynasty needing to die. But through that campaign, Jim Prentice had actually failed to connect with Albertans. I think that Kenney through that campaign in the open collared shirt and the blue truck, absolutely he was connecting, but then absolutely walked away from what was really a lot more about image than it was about substance. And so in Olds Didsbury Three Hills, whether you're talking about education, whether you're talking about health care, they're are serious policy concerns about his leadership and not just the character, although that's a very big part of it.

MG: Mike, how much credit do you put into those polls? The polls... again, the question is the question and polls come and go. But to Rob's point, many of the polls suggest that the majority of Albertans, those who've been polled, want Jason Kenney out of the job.

MIKE SOLBERG: Sure. Yeah. No. And I don't dispute that at all. Polls are right, at least on the days that they're conducted, and I won't put too much credence into them, as you said, Matt, moving forward. Well, no. Without question, the Premier has suffered in support or his support has suffered over the past many months. His approvals have dropped. And that is a direct result of the pandemic, and I think it's really what this vote comes down to is the premier's performance during the pandemic, his efforts to impose public health restrictions, lifestyle restrictions, shuttering of businesses during the pandemic. This is why so many folks are upset in this province. And you know, we can debate the merits of those moves. But what else would a premier do? I mean, we've seen heads of government from across the country all impose similar restrictions, necessary ones, in my opinion. I think that's really what this comes down to, is the premier's performance over the last 18 months in trying to combat the spread of this virus.

MG: What about Rob's point that there's an image versus substance question here that you know, the guy who was driving around with the open collared shirt in the blue pickup perhaps was not entirely people believe who he said he was?

MIKE SOLBERG: You know, I reject the notion. I think the premier and his caucus have done a fantastic job in trying to hear from Albertans. They're literally hosting a leadership review expanded to the entire membership base. So we're a year from the next election. I think that's the most democratic thing that a premier or leader of a party could do.

MG: In the face of great opposition.

MIKE SOLBERG: Sorry, say that again, Matt.

MG: In the face of great opposition. I mean, he's doing this in part because people are saying that he has to go.

MIKE SOLBERG: Absolutely. But there's nothing that dictates 100 percent that the premier would be required to do this. He could have done it at the AGM next November, and he didn't. He's hosting it now, and he's putting his money where his mouth is and allowing all members to vote and to sign his leadership. Or is the future of his tenure as the leader of the party.

MG: And he says he is not going to go gently. He has said that he will fight to stay on. Take a listen to what Jason Kenney was saying on Friday.

JASON KENNEY: SOUNDCLIP: [I came to the conclusion that would open the doors to an incredibly divisive cycle of leadership, elections and division in the party that we might never recover from. I remember in 2005 that after having won four majority governments and eliminated the deficit, eliminated the debt, helped to build the Alberta advantage that the PC party basically voted none confidence in Ralph Klein, and that set off a decade of conservative division going through four leaders of the PC party. The ensuing 10 years ended up with two parties in a vote split that elected the NDP. After having worked so hard over the past several years with conservatives to build a united party, I'm not prepared to risk that.]

MG: Rob Smith, How much do you worry about the divisions in this United Conservative Party leading to an NDP comeback in an election a year from now?

ROB SMITH: Let me start by saying Jason Kenney is no Ralph Klein. And yes, those divisions have started with the ousting of the former leader of the PC party. I was shocked and angered at the time, and I remain shocked and angered all these years later, and it was not good conservatism in Alberta. But Jason Kenney, as the leader of UCP, is not good for conservatism in Alberta, either. He's an incredibly divisive man. And I want to say with respect to what Michael was talking about, about the pandemic like that is Premier Kenney's narrative. The disappointment or disenchantment with him was entirely pandemic related. Personally, I have no ill will towards the man or any questioning of his ability to lead our province through the pandemic with respect to restrictions. I also agree that he didn't do anything largely different than any of the other premiers or our prime minister, for that matter. So my issues are nothing to do with the pandemic, and I think an awful lot of conservatives in Alberta feel the same way. It's much, much beyond that. It truly is policy. From an education perspective are the movements towards charter schools, for example, in the best interest of the vast majority of Albertans or Albertans' children in terms of negotiations in health care. So I think that there's a lot of issues that people want to speak up about, talking about them getting together in Red Deer or now doing it through voting. You know how many thousands of people would like to have actually cast a ballot from home had they known that there was the opportunity to do that by the party board of directors changing that rule after that membership deadline... And I know they want to say the people that would renew their membership only based on the opportunity to vote at their table at home are not serious conservatives. But Michael talked about the fact that we had almost 200,000 members and now there's about 50 some thousand. All those memberships have been lost in the time that Jason Kenney has been the leader. Does that not say something? So yeah, it's big concerns for this man and his leadership of our party.

MG: Mike, last question to you and this is for the rest of the country. Why does what happens in Alberta matter outside of the province when it comes to this issue? And who leads this party, but also who leads the province?

MIKE SOLBERG: Yeah, sure. Well, I've been saying to a number of people, and I think it should be obvious to many that other than the next general election, this leadership review is the most important date in the political calendar. We're literally deciding who the premier of our province is moving forward and who is the leader of the party that's going to combat. Rachel Notley ahead of the next election and obviously it matters for the rest of the country. Alberta, is an economic driver of the country we trade in enormous commodities we're an important part of confederation. And frankly, as far as the rest of Canada is concerned, it is important to have a strong Federalist leader in the province, somebody who's able to heal the divisions and kind of throw some water on the malcontent. That might be felt kind of on the Western angst and Western separatist movement that has been alive here since confederation. So it is important for the rest of the country that we elect somebody who's able to heal those divisions, who's able to lead this province and is able to have a message for the rest of the country. And that's why the stakes are so high here, not just for conservatives, but for Canadians from coast, to coast, to coast.

MG: And we'll see whether that person is Jason Kenney in days and weeks to come. It's good to speak with you both about this. We'll be watching. Thank you.

BOTH: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Rob Smith, president of the UCP Constituency Association in Olds Didsbury Three Hills. Mike Solberg is a partner at Newest Public Affairs in Calgary. Both will be voting in the upcoming leadership review of Jason Kenney.

[Music: Piano and guitar instrumental]

Canada at the World Cup

Guest: Colin Miller

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP: [Cheering and announcement that Canada will go to the World Cup]

MG: It is a moment 36 years in the making, Canada's men's soccer team in the World Cup, that ticket booked last night with victory over Jamaica. Colin Miller was on the Canadian squad the last time the Canadian men were in the World Cup. He went on to captain and be interim coach of the national team, Colin Miller. Good morning.

COLIN MILLER: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: That was some moment yesterday. Oh my goodness.

COLIN MILLER: Yeah, it was a wonderful occasion. It could have and should have happened in Costa Rica, to be honest with you. Even with 10 men, I thought we were the better team, missed a few chances, but what a wonderful occasion. And it wasn't nice to treat the Jamaican side with a bit of snow and a bit of minus temperatures. It was great... I just thought that it was... It's one of those landmark moments in Canadian sports where, you know, I remember when the team qualified the last time it was in St. John's, Newfoundland. Another cold occasion with Tony Waiters as the manager. But this group of young players is as talented a group as we've had in Canada for a long, long time. Matt, a very exciting group and you know, it's fantastic. We're top of the group and you're not top of the group by being a bad team. You're ahead of the United States, which is always a great thing, regardless of what sport we're talking about. And Mexico, which is the CONCACAF powerhouse. So to be ahead of those two countries is a significant achievement. And I just hope we can pick up at least one more point in Panama because we'll be guaranteed to finish on top.

MG: Why did it take so long, do you think for the men to get to this point, the women have been leading the pack. They are defending Olympic champions and of course have been in World Cups for many, many, many years. Why did it take so long for the men's team to get here?

COLIN MILLER: Well, I mean, it's a... I never compare men's football to women's football, Matt. I don't want to get into too many and get some bad phone calls here, but it's an entirely different animal. You know, there are a number of powerhouse countries that play in our region, whereas in the women's side of it at the time, it's still growing in some of those countries. So the process to qualify for Olympics and World Cups. I'm not saying it's easy by any stretch. And look, I don't want it to insult anyone's intelligence, but it is. It's a far more different animal to qualify. No... The difference but I think between this group and the group of players that I was involved in for so long in my 61 appearances for the country that there are players now in on the men's side that are playing at the top level of football, both here in North America and in Europe. And not shown because we have such a talent pool. Alphonso Davies, I think is really the... has been the catalyst for raising the game at the national team level. Alphonso Davies came through the FC Everton Academy when I was in charge of FC Everton and then he moved to the Vancouver Whitecaps and he's become a phenomenon. Arguably one of the top three or four left all backs in the world and that's as a Canadian lad. So it's raised the profile, it's added a real glow to the men's game. And then all of a sudden we get, you know, Jonathan David. We get, you know, Tajon Buchanan, who are both very, very talented, attack minded, exciting players. And all of a sudden, we've got young, young role models for our young players, boys and girls coming through football in Canada. It's a really exciting time.

MG: And now, I mean, when you read the international press about how Canada is doing, the men are being talked about in a different way. The World Cup is months away, but the suggestion is that this team could be a surprise package that people are going to take this team lightly going into the World Cup. Is that your sense?

COLIN MILLER: Yeah, it is. And I'm not saying that lightly. When you go into the World Cup, you know, there are very few weak teams in the 32 teams that will qualify as you, as you're probably aware, Matt. And I would not underestimate this Canadian side to cause one or two upsets. And I say that because of the quality of football players that we have on the team, but also the pace that we have. There's a lot of speed on this team. And as a former defender myself, when you play against players that have this sort of speed, it can cause any defence, a lot of problems. So this team has a real good balance of that. And there've been two very talented full backs as well. It's just a really good squad of players Matt, with a lot of depth, and we've probably lacked that side of the team for many years. So if a player goes down injured, I mean, we hardly mentioned Alphonso Davies over the last four or five games and he's been out injured and that shows you the depth and how good the players that are coming in to replace Alphonso, you know, so. So it just shows you what talent we have coming through and also through our younger programs. But I think the MLS clubs having their academies and so on and so forth and all the grassroots clubs, this is going to have such a major knock on effect throughout our country. It's such an exciting, excuse me, exciting time for football.

MG: And end on that. We're just about out of time, and people have always debated, you know, are we a hockey nation, lacrosse, one of the founding sports here as well. Are we now a soccer nation?

COLIN MILLER: Well, I think we've always been a soccer nation, but it's been a bit disjointed when you get to World Cup time because it's been the little Italy or the little Portugals, or the little such in such all the way through different countries that, you know, we're such an ethnic background in our country. But now, we've now got Canada at the Big Show, and I know it's going to pull our country together. We're definitely a soccer country, there's no doubt in my mind. But now we're together as a soccer country, which is so exciting to see.

MG: It'll mean something, as you said. I mean, people used to stick the Italian flag or the Portuguese flag or the Ghanaian flag on the side of the car. Now you can put the Canadian flag there, too.

COLIN MILLER: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you'll see when we start to play some friendlies prior to going to Qatar at the end of the year, you'll start to see something that is going to take over the country without a shadow of a doubt. I mean, I did a lot of travelling with FC Edmonton and during World Cup time and in the states it was every airport was jam-packed with people watching TV screens and watching the World Cup in general. Now, that Canada is going to be there. And as we spoke about earlier on, I think this team and I'm not getting carried away with things, but I think this team could be a little a bit of a dangerous animal to play against.

MG: It's fun to get carried away. I think a lot of people will over the next couple of weeks and months. Colin Good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

COLIN MILLER: Yes, my pleasure. Thank you, Matt.

MG: Colin Miller, former captain and coach of Canada's national men's soccer team. He was in Abbotsford, British Columbia. The Canadian men, heading to the World Cup in Qatar later this year. That is the current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one. It's Q. They will recap the Academy Awards. Lots to talk about. Big win for COTA If you haven't seen this film, it's beautiful. Dune picked up a lot of awards as well, and of course, Will Smith and Chris Rock. What to make of that. All to be discussed on CBC Radio in just a few moments. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Monday March 28, 2022 Full Text Transcript

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