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The Current Transcript for March 9, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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Inside the growing refugee crisis on the Ukraine-Poland border – Part 1

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Noises and chatter]

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a sound you get used to at the Medyka border crossing in Poland. A steady stream of exhausted refugees pulling their lives behind them. I'm Matt Galloway The Current today and tomorrow is coming from the Ukraine Poland border. Two million people, that's how many of the United Nations believes have fled since Russia invaded Ukraine. And those numbers are sure to keep rising as the war intensifies and more civilians are caught up in the conflict. Well over a million people have come here to Poland. We'll meet some of the people who are making that journey both out and back into Ukraine. We'll talk to the people who've come to help from Europe and Canada, and there are tensions, too. We'll find out how different refugees are being treated. We start today, though, here at the Modica border crossing one of the busiest in Poland. It is not a scene of chaos. There is a constant stream of people emerging through the gates and they've just walked across the border. Mostly women and children as a boy carrying his white ukulele. An elderly woman pushed in a wheelchair who has a fluffy orange cat sitting calmly in her lap. Some of these people have been travelling for days, only to wait at the border for hours to get through.

SOUNDCLIP

VANYA: My name is Vanya.

JULIA: How old are you?

VANYA: I'm eight.

JULIA: [Foreign speech]

SOPHIA: [Foreign speech] Sophia.

JULIA: She is four.

MG: This is hard for them to.

JULIA: Yes, they are very afraid.

MG: Sophia smiles shyly. She's peering out of a blanket that she's almost completely wrapped up in. It's cold. Hovering around the freezing Mark. Vanya, the proud eight year old is clutching a bag of cookies in his mitten hand. In the other hand, he's carrying his sister's tiny backpack, his own on his back. Julia, their mom, has a purse on her arm, a pack on her shoulders and one child in each hand.

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JULIA: We live near Kyev and it's in robbery, and the first two in the 24 February as a first attack was on our city and we hear all of this and my children sleep very bad, very nervous and I hear very afraid of his slot of their life and my life too. And that's why we decided to leave Ukraine and to go here. My husband and my dad stay in Ukraine. They are in the war in the territorial [foreign] speech].

MG: In the Territorial Army, yes.

JULIA: Yes, yes. And that's why we're here.

MG: Is it hard for you to be here and for them to be back there?

JULIA: We very want to back home in our home because we haven't any one here. And we have flat. We have work, we have neighbours and this, we haven't national. But as a situation, it's very difficult. And I decided to do this. And we doesn't have in our home any [foreign speech], any something well, we can hide in.

No basement or anything like that?

Yes, yes, we were in our flat and in... It's very difficult and we don't understand nothing and don't understand for this day why it's happened with us. Why we didn't do nothing bad to this country, nothing. And we now have very many people died. Very many people ill because of. And very many destruction house, flat, all our country and it's very, very bad.

MG: How long do you think he'll be gone for?

JULIA: We don't know. I very believe that it's stopped in a few days, maybe or maybe in a week, and we come back home. We very believe in this.

MG: I hope your home soon. Thank you very much.

JULIA: Yes, thank you very much.

MG: Good luck. Bye bye. Goodbye. Good luck.

VANYA: Good bye.

MG: Julia has a sister in Italy. She's just not sure yet how she'll get there. Victoria has walked five kilometres with her grandmother. That's after taking a train and a bus, a gym bag stuffed full hanging on her shoulder, a backpack on her back.

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VICTORIA: Oh, I'm so tired. And um, I don't know how to tell you about this. It's so horrible.

MG: We're in Ukraine did you come from?

VICTORIA: From Kyev.

MG: Why did you feel like you had to leave?

VICTORIA: Because. Danger, danger. You need to any time go to down.

MG: To the basement?

VICTORIA: Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

MG: Did you have to do that a lot?

VICTORIA: Yeah, a lot. Maybe in day it was 30 times and I'm tired.

MG: How does it feel to be here?

VICTORIA: Very comfortable. You know, it's when you understand when you're in safe, it's so good.

MG: Where will you go now?

VICTORIA: Now in Warszawa, then? Now I have a sister in Berlin.

MG: In Berlin.

VICTORIA: Yeah.

MG: And how long do you think you'll be there for now?

VICTORIA: I don't know. Maybe the war end and we need to go in Ukraine. Go home. But you think you'll get home? Yeah, I think, yeah, we we need to win. I think we win.

MG: Could you have ever imagined this happening?

VICTORIA: No, of course not. I think no. I see that, um, situation in Russia aggressive. They aggressived us. But I think it's ending happy. But when I woke up when, oof, it's horrible. ummm.

MG: You're tired.

VICTORIA: Yeah. So much.

MG: Like so many on this footpath, she is exhausted, but the people keep walking boxes full of donated goods line the path. There's baby food and diapers, snacks and warm clothes. Crowds of people line up for coffee and hot food for thought. A woman with a megaphone tells everyone about the buses they need to get on where to go next to find shelter. And all of this is run by volunteers. People like Tomas.

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TOMAS: there's a lot of things. I'm carrying bags. I'm trying to find out who is the direction. I'm using my mobile phone number to call their drivers. I'm trying to find them the temporary shelter in the Medyka school. We coordinate buses. We bring to you, bring coffee. We bring blankets. We hug. Sometimes we need to call their families in the Ukraine to tell that everything is okay, that they all cross the border. They are safe. They don't have to worry about them.

MG: People needing medical care can head to the white tent at a shiny gold foil sides to keep in the heat. Inside, there are shelves lined with pill bottles and boxes.

SOUNDCLIP

TOMAS: You have a medicine on the right is the pharmacy the immediate pharmacy? We have a storage place over there with maybe 300 kilos of medicine over there.

MG: Behind the door in the second tent is a quiet space. A family is in there in the dark and warmth, regrouping after a long trip.

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FERNANCO: My name first is Fernanco team leader at Rischio Without Borders. We are an Israeli organisation that used to came in theatres of Christmas wars or natural problems all around the world.

MG: He's part of a team of two doctors. A paramedic and two nurses kept busy with hundreds of refugees passing through these tents each day.

SOUNDCLIP

FERNANCO: Two categories of people. The first category was the usually women and their children that came by bus, were Ukrainian only. And there is only family problems with their children. Problems are light problems and like medical problems. But the most important problems and and this is where this the immigrants problem that live in the Ukraine now that came here by feet during 50 kilometres and through forests with the snow condition and there were injured, we saw broken legs, we saw a lot of wounded people and we saw terrible problems. And it was, um, not serious problems. But we have to take care of maybe 100 to 200 people a day.

MG: What do you want people to know about what's happening here?

FERNANCO: It's a real a real refugee crisis, and it's very... We saw pictures, we show children that are crying. But it's quite different. We saw very different, different to different category of people. The black people and the white people. Their situation were very, very different. We treat anyone. It's not depend of religion of race or that the same way, but we saw that their condition were very, very different.

MG: Tell me more about that. What's the difference?

FERNANCO: The white people came in bus, by bus. The black peoples came by feet and their situation were very bad.

MG: And those are the people who you said were walking 50 kilometres to get across the border.

FERNANCO: They wanted to go into the buses. They wanted to, to go by car, to get transporte and to be here. Nobody let them go inside.

MG: And so they had to walk to get out.

FERNANCO: Yeah.

MG: What does that tell you about what's happening here?

FERNANCO: War conditions. No more. Not, you know, I I'm an Israeli citizen and um, it's, it's war. It's not surprise me. We have to handle it, and we are here as Israeli to handle the situation. Because this can happen in every place in the world and for us, for me, particularily, be Israeli and to be here, it's very, very important.

MG: Just passed the tent is the highway leading in and out of Ukraine. A huge line of transport trucks, cars and buses is waiting to pass through. A steady trickle of vehicles is coming the other way and people line the roads watching and waiting and waiting.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Her mother and her sister.

MG: And where are they right now in?

VOICE 1: Here. In the car.

MG: How long have you been waiting?

VOICE 1: Uh, one hour now, one our.

MG: Why are they leaving.

VOICE 2: Inferno. Inferno.

VOICE 1: Very, very big time. It's a great, great confusion. It is confusing. It's a it's a tragedy.

MG: There somewhere out there. You don't know where exactly

VOICE 1: they're, you know, no 20 kilometres from, but uh, we don't know. We don't know. And maybe works. Maybe. I don't know. We wait.

MG: A bit further up the road. A reunion.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Right now, we're fine because we find our friends and they are right now here in Poland, and it's like a very good feeling. You know.

MG: You drove here from Dusseldorf?

VOICE 1: Yeah, from Dusseldorf to Berlin. And yeah, we slip at our car because right now we don't have some hotels. Yeah, the rooms all are all and we don't have, yeah, one room for us and we sleep it.

MG: Who did you come here to pick up?

VOICE 1: The best friend from her mother and her child. Yeah.

MG: And where were they coming from?

VOICE 1: Uh, from Kyev.

MG: From Kiev.

VOICE 1: Yeah.

MG: What did they tell you about what life was like in Kyev?

VOICE 1: Yeah, it's like horrible. You know, and every time they have horror time, yeah, they can sleep good. And it's like, very horrible story right now, what they live at this time. 2022. Yeah, it's I don't understand how it's it's very, very hard yet for all the people.

MG: Klaus Eckhart is still waiting for his reunion. He's on the phone standing on a median.

[dc]

KLAUS: There were no. Five in line, apparently. So yes, I'm thinking any minute now.

[/sc[

MG: Klaus has travelled from Belgium. His girlfriend is Ukrainian and went back into the country to help rescue a family with two kids. One has a disability. The other suspected appendicitis. They'll see a doctor and then head to Belgium, where a reception centre specifically for Ukrainian refugees is being set up.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Do you think countries are ready for this? This is I mean, there's a crisis. It's happening now, but this is going to go on for some time.

KLAUS: Right, right. Well, I think.

MG: He keeps glancing over his shoulder.

KLAUS: I think the countries, sorry,

MG: you have to keep watching. That's OK.

KLAUS: Let me turn around like this. Are they ready? I think yes, they are semi ready. But of course, it's an unfolding emergency which has to be adapted to the to the needs as they come. Like a week ago, I think there weren't so many refugees yet, but now the situation seems to be much, getting much worse. So now it's really getting underway. But you know, the countries like Germany or or, you know, the bigger countries, they are organised into smaller countries, too, like Belgium or Holland. And as we said before, the the people are chipping in. The people are very solidaire. I don't know the word in English/

MG: Showing solidarity.

KLAUS: Showing solidarity. That's it.

MG: So yeah, could you have ever imagined yourself doing something like this?

KLAUS: Yes. I have been in all the situations similar to this. Not exactly the same. Not as urgent as this, but yes, I mean, you, you know, I you know, you think about these things and you imagine yourself, how would I behave if I was now in, you know, Indonesia, if there is a crisis unfolding dad or whatever, you know, and um. And so now it's happening on my doorstep. So now it's easy to to actually do something.

MG: And you feel like an obligation.

KLAUS: Well, yeah, it's an obligation. It's yeah, it's an obligation. Mostly it's like, you know, it's like comforting a crying child. It's like it's like helping a beggar in the streets. Yeah, this is similar. You have to help these people, right?

MG: Yeah. For a lot of people, this is a shocking scene. What is it like seeing, just as you've made your way through this, to see this?

KLAUS: Well, to be honest, I don't think it's that's shocking. I mean, I think it's shocking the pictures I see from Kyev and from bombed cities, that is shocking. But right here it seems, you know, I mean, there's not millions of people flooding across. It's not dramatic. But of course, I saw families, you know, limping because they've been walking a long time, probably. You know, grandmothers with tears in their eyes. I mean, you could see these people are under duress, you know, under stress. And you know, and that is in itself emotionally, you know, awakens emotions, you know, something like that. Yeah, but shocking. No, I haven't seen any blood. I haven't seen, you know, it's it's still under control.

MG: An hour later, the family he's waiting for has finally come through their red Mitsubishi, packed full of people and bags. The kids stay inside trying to keep warm. The mom, Ludmila, is rearranging that pile of bags in the trunk. One of the kids actually has to grab them from the back seat to get the hatch closed.

SOUNDCLIP

LUDMILA: They live in a small village near Kyev of between [unintelligible]Kyev. It's very dangerous because last night we sleeper 10 days in our friends in [unintelliglbe] because in our house, we didn't sleep because we hear this, this...

MG: The bombs and explosions.

LUDMILA: Yes. Yes, it's very, very hard.

MG: Who came with you? How many people came with you?

LUDMILA: For childrens and I. My husband and two our oldest sons now stay on the Ukraine and stay for our freedom for, for we have the possibility to come back to our house.

MG: Will they fight?

LUDMILA: My husband is military man. And now he walk son have not military profession, but now stays as well.

MG: And you'll go to Belgium now?

LUDMILA: Now yes.

MG: And what happens there? What will you do there?

LUDMILA: I don't know. I because all my dream in my country, I know that all will be ok. But now it's a long way for our freedom.

MG: And good luck. Thank you very much.

LUDMILA: Thank you. But sorry for my English because I didn't long time practise this English.

MG: Your English is very good, thank you.

LUDMILA: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support.

MG: Good luck.

LUDMILA: Good bye.

MG: Thank you.

KLAUS: Let me see if she sent me some more messages.

MG: Meanwhile, Klaus is still waiting on the side of the highway for his girlfriend. Oh okay,

KLAUS: okay. Two cars before me, so they'll be here. I think it's still

MG: he could be here, while the steady stream of people coming through here is being managed. Some refugees, like Lyudmila and her family are leaving in cars, others loaded onto buses to find shelter away from the border. Not all of the scenes are quite disorganised, though. After the break, we visit the next stop for many of these refugees and empty big box store turned into a reception and processing centre. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current from Poland. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Inside the growing refugee crisis on the Ukraine-Poland border – Part 2

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're in Poland today where more than 100000 refugees from Ukraine are arriving every single day. And after they cross the border, many of them are brought here to this empty big box store on the outskirts of Przemysl. There are mountains of donated clothing laying untouched it here.

[Indistinct chatter]

MG: Satnam Singh is wandering through the crowds with a carafe of hot tea and a tray full of cookies.

SOUNDCLIP

SATNAM SINGH: We are doing volunteering from day one and we would like to stay here till the end of the week. Like the water, get tents and we are serving hot meals. We have a camp over there and we are serving and we are also like, you can see like we are going inside with people. You know, sometimes it happened like person is standing in a queue and he, he or she don't want a good line because, you know, he's sending from one hour and more. And you know, we are going into the lines and we are like asking them if they are hungry. It's just humanity matters.

MG: What does that mean to humanity? Matters.

SATNAM SINGH: Your mind, the matter like you. It's like a whole human race, everyone. It's our tagline. And so we are just, you know, here.

MG: It's amazing. Thank you very much and good luck.

SATNAM SINGH: Thank you.

MG: Some giant buses and vans are pulling into the parking lot every minute in front of the store. Volunteers with megaphones and yellow safety vests are trying to organise orderly lines. Media isn't allowed inside the building. This is a place for the refugees to rest and recover before moving on. Many of those leaving Ukraine have a plan maybe a sister in Berlin, a cousin in Warsaw. The question is how to get there, and that is where this processing centre comes in.

[Indistinct chatter]

MG: Oskar Lang is a student in Germany. He gathered some friends and an extra van and drove overnight to get here. He's standing in front with a sign offering to take refugees to Hamburg.

SOUNDCLIP

OSKAR LANG: When the war started. We asked ourselves, What can we do to help? So we ended up collecting money and buying medicine and food and health care stuff to bring here and on the way back, pick up people to bring them to Germany.

MG: Do you know who you're taking back to Germany?

OSKAR LANG: No. We came here registered at the register registration and then we're told to just go around and look for people who we wanted to go to our city.

MG: Why are you doing this?

OSKAR LANG: Because we have a break right now and we wanted to do something good and maybe because it's like so present in the news and so close to us. I mean, like five years ago or seven years ago when all the refugees came from Syria. And so I was helping in the camps in Germany and doing some stuff. I don't know. Maybe it's just me trying to help somewhere where I can, as I'm fortunate enough to not be in such a situation. Do you have Google Translate?

MG: He finds a family that needs a ride. But there are language barriers.

SOUNDCLIP

[Foreign speech]

MG: Translator steps in.

SOUNDCLIP

Anywhere to Hamburg.

Anywhere.

MG: Plans are made.

SOUNDCLIP

OK, you can go.

MG: So the family splits up between the two vans. Oscar's friend Philippa is driving one of them.

SOUNDCLIP

PHILLIPA: It was just really difficult to find people who want to Germany, and because I think everything is mixed up there and you- yeah, it's crazy right now.

SATNAM SINGH: Good bye. You can, you can put your stuff inside the front.

[Chatter]

Twelve year old Oksana sits in the back seat, settling in for a long ride with strangers.

SOUNDCLIP

OKSANA: I am from [unintelligible]. It's a very interesting place. Poland, I'm shocked. I'm so excited. It's very I think it's will be a very interesting trip. I never be in Germany, never been Poland, never been Germany. Yeah, I'm really.

MG: Across the parking lot, Olha has her bags packed into a van heading to Estonia. She has family there.

[sc].

OLHA: I lived in Krakow. Oh yes.

MG: What was it like? Over the last few days?

OLHA: It's awful. It's just I can't explain it to me. It's you need to feel it. It's no words for explain it. It's just fear. That's all.

MG: And that's why you had to leave.

OLHA: Oh, yes, of course. Of course. Houses were destroyed in neighbours quarter, destroyed houses. And it's it's it's dangerous. It's I think it's murder it's just murder. And nobody is going to stay you alive, women, children. Nobody should live in the Ukraine.

MG: And so you will go to Estonia.

OLHA: Yes.

MG: Why there?

OLHA: Why? Well, Isome relatives there, I'm not too close by, but we contacted, communicated, and it was it that way.

MG: And how long will you be there for? Do you think we'll do?

OLHA: I don't know. I lived in my Ukraine. I wanted to live in my Ukraine. I didn't want to go. Anywhere from my country. I love my country. I love my city. But it destroyed, half destroyed now.

MG: And so do you think will you ever go back?

OLHA: No, I hope. But I might. I don't know. Nobody knows it, for now, nobody knows. We are going to need help from our country very much and thank you for this people who help us some food with some things. Thank you very much. But we need some, uh, military forces, I think, for me to return to my home.

MG: I hope you get home soon.

OLHA: Thank you very much.

MG: And I'm glad you're safe and glad you're good.

OLHA: Thank you very much.

MG: Kristina Kallas is helping organise bands like this. She's with an Estonian NGO.

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KRISTINA KALLAS: We have a central office here that coordinates the operation of getting Ukrainian refugees to Estonia.

MG: And so tell us about the operation. When did you get here? How did you get here?

KRISTINA KALLAS: I mean, the operation itself has been here for a week already. I got here this morning. So we have a call centre here, which receives calls from people who are crossing, who are in Ukraine and who need to get across and they need information. How, where, how. So our call centre, the five Ukrainian volunteers, Ukrainian speaking volunteers are picking up the calls and directing people here. So once they come here, this is my job to get them here and to get them fed warm and onto the buses that go to Estonia. So basically, the operation is that we get buses coming from Estonia and then we have people coming across the border and we need to get them here and, you know, get them together. These are mostly people who have somebody in Estonia waiting for them. So these people in Estonia send them our call centre number saying a please call them. This is an Estonian office in America. They will organise your transport to Estonia. So we don't we don't pick up people randomly here and say, Please come to Estonia. I think it's a little bit if you ask me, it's a little bit unhuman because these people are totally lost and they don't know where they are, where should they go? And it's just, I think this is not OK. So we do it differently. We want to make sure that they know where they are going in Estonia or somebody meeting them there, but they have sort of sponsor and that's how we operate. And yes.

MG: When they get here out of Ukraine, how long does it take before they end up on that bus?

KRISTINA KALLAS: About three or four hours. We have two buses waiting at all. We had just basically buses are waiting for people to come. There are two more buses, Estonian buses here. So we have four buses currently actually waiting for people. So as soon as they are full, they they go.

MG: And when they get here, what happens in the process to get them settled? They've just come out of a really traumatic situation.

KRISTINA KALLAS: So we usually we usually try to ask them to to eat and then basically they go directly to the bus. They why they they don't want to actually very much sit here, they want to sit on a bus because they really want to make sure that they are not missing the bus that goes to Estonia. This is this feeling that, you know, you don't want to get lost again in this because it's really crowded in here and and they want to sit in a warm bus and and wait there.

MG: How would you describe the people who are coming through here?

KRISTINA KALLAS: For example, four people came now with just one bus arrived from Estonia, and 44 Ukrainian mothers came with this bus because their kids are in Ukraine, so they came here to pick up their children. Some some friends are bringing the children to the border, so I have to organise a car for them to drive them to the border. They have to cross, they have to pick up the kids, cross back and then come back here and we are getting them back on the bus and back to Estonia. So so that's that's the operation I'm trying to organise.

MG: How many people have come through so far?

KRISTINA KALLAS: We have sent to Estonia, if I'm not mistaken, at around 450 people since four days we started four days ago. Yeah.

MG: What does that tell you about the need?

KRISTINA KALLAS: Uh, I mean, the need is enormous, but I also can see that there is a response and not that bad. It's just a little bit chaotic, the whole organisation here, but it's something maybe understandable. Um. I mean, Estonia has a capacity probably taken maybe 5000, 6000 maximum, maybe 10000 Ukrainian refugees in a tiny country, in terms of where to put them to live and housing. So and I think we are moving towards the target fast. We're trying to help people here.

MG: What happens when they get there? I mean, as you said, they have somebody generally who is sponsoring them. But when people get to Estonia, what happens?

KRISTINA KALLAS: So generally, there is people sponsoring them, either their family members, relatives or friends of the friends, cousins and so on. But we have also some people who just say that they want to go to Estonia because they used to work there or they used to study there. For example, many of the former students. I work at the university so we have many former students who used to study atata university. And that's the country they know. And that's where they want to go in local governments, where they go, whether this is [unintelligible] or [unintelliglbe]. There are. There are these kind of centres where they need to go because that's where they get the information documents registered and the place to live to study.

MG: And it is the sense that they're going temporarily. Or is this...?

KRISTINA KALLAS: Temporarily. I mean, everybody I've talked to feels that they go temporarily. Yes.

MG: When you talk about the general response to this, what are you seeing across countries in terms of how they're stepping up and helping people in this crisis?

KRISTINA KALLAS: It's very impressive. How not that much even countries, but the civil society and people themselves, because what you see here going on here, it's not a single country has organised this. This is all volunteer civil society, organised thing, the whole thing here. Even the Polish side, it's not a local government doing it. It's the volunteer organisations doing it here. The same with Estonia, the same with Latvia and Germany. It's just either private individuals coming up here, bringing humanitarian aid and then picking up people and driving them where they need to go. Or it's just organisations like ours, which is an NGO organising it. And this this has been very impressive how how the European side of response has been really fast and welcoming.

MG: But does it tell you? I mean, why people are throwing themselves into this?

KRISTINA KALLAS: Because there's a war in Europe, in the middle of Europe. It's as simple as that. I mean, it's really in Europe. It's it's... We have had wars before the war is happening in Mali or in Afghanistan. Yes, we watch it over the news and refugees also at some point reach our shores. But that's far and that's mentally far. And most people, you know, don't even imagine what it means life in Afghanistan. But Ukraine is in here and especially countries like Poland or central eastern European countries that have a very tight cultural historical connections to Ukraine. I mean, they feel personally that as if they have been attacked. It's not. It's not far away country. It's my backyard, basically that that is bombed. So I think that's what people feel. That's what I felt when the war started. Ukraine is a country where I've been very often and I know it very well. It's not a remote country for me. It's very, very close country and there is the need to responses just because the feeling that this war is in my backyard, it's not somewhere far.

MG: For how long will you be here for?

KRISTINA KALLAS: For a week. We have this one week shifts because within week people usually get extremely tired and they need a replacement.

MG: And how long will the operation itself continue, do you think?

KRISTINA KALLAS: I don't know. I don't know. I can see now we have buses planned for the next week. Tallinn has will be sending the whole next week buses here. And we'll see how long the people will continue coming.

MG: When you talked about this being an operation of civil society is your sense that that neighbouring countries were ready for this were ready for this refugee crisis?

KRISTINA KALLAS: No, not countries, definitely not. But that just an individual human response has been very fast in a way that that's. OK, Estonia has a very strong organisation that has been dealing with refugees for many years, so our capacity to deal as an organisation is big compared to maybe other countries that are just standing here with a private cars. And you know, I saw Latvian colleagues here, but they said that they don't have such a strong organisation, so they are just regular human beings coming here and trying to help. But I think the response has been significant really from from individuals, from just the citizens.

MG: How do you understand this is a question we've been asking people over the course of the day. How do you understand the fact that this war is happening? I mean, when you think of the fact that it's happening, what goes through your mind?

KRISTINA KALLAS: Well, I know I know the places that Russia is bombing because I've been there. I know what it means the they of Main Square or or what what yev is the streets of Odessa. I know all these places. I know Mariupol. I've been there. So if you see this images of houses being bombed in a place where you have been many times and quite often, I mean, it's like, you know, maybe I don't know, a New York is bombed and you're watching it from the news and it said, Oh my God, but this is where I've been, and I know what it feels, what the city feels, and now it's under the bombs. So this is how you feel that the war is there. Also, I have so many Ukrainian friends, I have Ukrainian students and colleagues whose parents are in the war basically. So, you know, this is real, this is in Europe. This is next to us happening, happening to our friends.

[Chatter]

MG: But that woman sweeping in at the end there, the one organising the desk for Kristina. Her name is Armita, another volunteer.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Explain what's happening here at this site.

ARMITA: So basically, the Ukrainians fleeing their country go to the border check-up, which is called Medyka, does a few miles away, and from there they get their stamp from the police authorities and they get into a bus and they arrive here. Either the families arrive and pick them up or close ones, or they just come here. There's three categories of people. There's first category of Ukraine is that have people who can come and pick them up. Either they pick them up here or they pick them up at the border. A second category is that they know where they want to go, but they don't have a means of transportation. So they come here and wait for transportation to go to the place they want to go. And the third category is the one that we try to take care of is the ones that have nowhere else to go. So they arrive here and they don't know what to do. So here basically, it's a place that is not supposed to be a long term place because of course, you know, the people, more and more people are going to come. So we try to have them three four days, you know, try to make sure that they get to a safe spots, where they get accommodation. Of course, I mean, the police, local authorities are in charge, so they're a little bit overwhelmed. And they are. It's new for them. So it took some time. It's a learning experience. And like, I was there yesterday and I was helping. It was complete a complete mess and today it's super well organised and everybody knows what they have to do. And it's much, much, much better and under control. And now we're trying to coordinate and also to find a coordination to have in the safe because this was also an issue. The safety of the drivers, you know, of the Ukrainians, we the drivers, to make sure that the, you know, they get proper identification, that we have a follow up number or something. Is there a metro station card of the car so that we know where you're going and with whom they're going?

MG: So the people who are in this line, they're waiting and they are waiting to...?

Speaker 7: To get inside to get registration so they will get a document. And then once they get that, they say where they want to go. If they don't know, we can try to help them and give them different options and they can go to inside. There is a there are different stands for the countries they would like to go to. They might be certified drivers that are willing to bring them to a spot. But they also we are trying to work with more coordinated organisations that are already working with their authorities from their own country so that we can assure safe transportation for the Ukrainians to the host country. So this is working, but it's very difficult to organise all of this. We get more and more people saying that, you know, they have this organisation in place and we're trying to make that work.

MG: And the people who are standing around with signs that say Berlin or Krakow are those are registered drivers that are kind of just looking for somebody. They have space in a car and they're just looking.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Even though we're trying to have this a little bit more control. This was just a way to manage this mass of people coming in and saying that they want to volunteer and bring people because I don't know if you were here the few days before, but it was like hundreds of people with their sign saying they want to go. Today, it's nothing compared to the days before, and it's just that you cannot control hundreds of people saying they have and they were doing this outside. You know, they were like stopping Ukrainians before they get to the centre and telling them, I have room in my car. I can tell you, thank you. So we tried to explain them that these people are a little bit, you know, traumatised and you cannot like, go to them. You need to let you give them a bit of time and we need to give them some insurance that this is a safe way to do.

MG: But it's really quite something like it's the scale of it is is amazing.

ARMITA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I.

KRISTINA KALLAS: Mean, yeah, it's good to, but you know, let them. They're outside of their home. So it's good.

MG: But why are you doing this?

ARMITA: I, I don't know. I lived in chief in 2008. For a few months. I did an exchange and I was so touched by by this and I just felt like I needed to do something. And with a group of friends, we created a humanitarian organisation on Monday and we came here and. We brought five trucks full of of goods that we collected in three days and we arrived here, we took people who wanted to go to France and I stayed here with three other persons to help them with the coordination.

MG: You created a humanitarian organisation on Monday.

ARMITA: Yeah. You can make some advertisement for them.

MG: Have you slept at all since then

ARMITA: or they will eat, you meet? That's a good thing here. You meet amazing people. Yesterday, we didn't have accommodation, so a bunch of people invited us in their hotel room. So we just crushed their on their on the floor. And tonight, I don't know. Let's see. Maybe I need to sleep here. I don't know.

MG: But it's important. It's so important for you that you travelled here to do this and you have nowhere to sleep, but it's just you just need to be here.

ARMITA: But I go back to my regular job on Tuesday.

MG: So what's your regular job?

ARMITA: I'm a senior consultant, public sector, but I used to work as a project coordinator and humanitarian international corporation, so that's why I wanted to help because I know how it works. So I wanted to. I know it's in this situation before the organisation, you know, know and react because it's such a big structure, you know, it's difficult for them to organise themselves. I thought, you know, they need some volunteer people who know what they're, you know, a little bit more what they're doing and that, you know, there are some rules to respect and you know, you need to make sure of safety and all of these things. So, yeah, we tried, but I'm very happy, honestly, that it's such a change since yesterday. Yeah, it's a good thing. I wanted to go to a khrushcheva today because I know [unintelligible], because I know over there it's very bad and there are more than 4000 refugees. And I wanted to go and maybe try to talk to the to the guys. But I don't have time.

MG: Thank you for talking to us and good luck.

ARMITA: I just want to know that's for you to know that it's not because you they don't let you in. That there's something weird going on is just that yesterday there was a lot of press filming crying people, and it's not so great. And fortunately, we prefer to so far to do this. And then maybe slowly, slowly getting to letting the press in. I'm sorry, I have to go.

MG: Thank you very much.

MG: She's busy and she has to run. From here, some will move on to the train station in Przemysl. It's become a hub for refugees trying to get out of Poland and four others heading back into Ukraine. That station is our next stop after the break. I'm Matt Galloway coming to you today from Poland. We're back in 90 seconds.

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Inside the growing refugee crisis on the Ukraine-Poland border – Part 3

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current today in Poland. Przemysl is an historic city. One of the oldest in Poland, there are picturesque churches and cobblestone streets. 60000 people live here. It's 14 kilometres from the border with Ukraine. It's still pretty quiet on the streets until you get close to the train station. There are crowds outside the station doors, and once you're in, it's hard to move. People are bunched around the ticket windows, anxious to catch a train out. There are people sitting on chairs and benches. Some sound asleep outside on the platform. There's a bit of room to breathe and space for people to stop and eat.

[Noise and chatter]

MG: Natalie is behind a table with huge pots of steaming food and baskets filled with bread and snacks.

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIE: I also came from Ukraine, and I would like to to do something because it's terrible to stay at home and do nothing. I'm trying to help online to find some stuff for our army and to for people. And also, I'm trying to do what I can.

MG: When did you come from Ukraine

NATALIE: and maybe are the first in the first day when the war started? We came here because there was information that Lviv would be bombed, attacked by Russians. So there was some explosion near leave and we will live near their army like forces in the city. So that's why we need to go somewhere else.

MG: And what have you seen here this week? I mean, as people have been arriving,

NATALIE: I'm I'm very surprised how Polish people have help us. It's amazing, really, and it shows us what people like, who can help us. And it's unbelievable. It's hard to describe, really. Also, there is some centre in the village [unintelliglbe], where people took clothes and some stuff, some chemicals, some everything that Ukrainians need. And they they put it together. And we started two different boxes and sent it something to Ukraine, something we use here. So them for people help very much.

MG: And where's the food coming from? Whose are you making the food?

NATALIE: And this is that people from [unintelligible] and they have some, I don't know, canteen where they cook it so that they do it by themselves.

MG: It's kind of amazing.

NATALIE: Yeah, it's really amazing.

MG: When do you think you'll get back to Ukraine?

NATALIE: I hope that as soon as possible, I would like to go now and I would do it. But I have my sister here and she had a toddler and she is afraid when will be then Sirin. That's the noise.

MG: The air raid siren.

NATALIE: Yeah, she should take the child and go downstairs to the shelter, and it would be like hard to her head. So that's why I'm staying here with her.

MG: But it must be hard to be away from home.

NATALIE: It's really hard because like, I would like to help something in different ways. That's why I'm trying to help here.

MG: Do you know a lot of people who are going back to help?

NATALIE: Yeah, I know that a lot of people go back to Ukraine, especially men. They would like to fight. They would like to be there. And also, we try to send some stuff, some clothes, some radio phones. Well, it's very important for them. They need it. So yeah.

MG: Natalie talked about the people she knows going back. We head underneath the tracks through the tunnel to platform five. There's a long line of people waiting for a train heading into Ukraine. There is no train in sight and no schedule for when one might come. Katrina is here with her husband.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Tell us what you're doing here in line.

KATRINA: Well, in this line we are waiting for the train to get back to Ukraine, and firstly, we will go to leave. I don't know yet how much we will stay there, like two or four days and the next step as we plan to get back to Kiev because basically we are from Kiev, me and my husband.

MG: Where are you coming from?

KATRINA: Well, we were in on vacation in Egypt and the news like found us there. So we bought tickets to Berlin, stayed for one night from our friends, and then we travelled to Poland, to our relatives, friends, some. Contacts of the volunteers who are working there now to support our defund. And now we are getting back to Ukraine to also to start these channels, how to pass from Poland to Ukraine, this humanitarian help.

MG: So what will you be doing when you go back?

KATRINA: Well, we are going like half work and half volunteering. I'm from the software development company. Most of our clients are based in Europe and United States. They still need our support and to we need to continue business because we need to also form our business to support the army, to support volunteering.

MG: So there are a lot of people who are leaving Ukraine to come to Poland and to go elsewhere.

KATRINA: Yes. Yes, there are a lot, but we are this little bit. We are people who from here going back there.

MG: A little bit weird.

KATRINA: Yeah.

MG: Are you worried about going back?

KATRINA: No, to be honest, we are. We are ready to get back to meet some of our friends and then to meet our families because we have nothing to stay here. We have everything there. We have families there. We have past. We have works. We have homework. Everything that's this our home, Ukraine, our home. And I don't know. Of course, we have no children. So that's maybe the reason why we so easily getting back.

MG: What was it like watching this war start when you were away from your home?

KATRINA: Oh, that was terrible, frustrating, awful. Because you were there. You had no any opportunity to do something because first days there was like no organised flights because Ukrainian sky was closed and we needed to get back somehow. That was very frustrating. We started to communicate with all our friends, parents, everyone else of the night and also that that was so... We did everything we can.

MG: There are a lot of people who are going back to fight.

KATRINA: Yes. Yes, a lot of people going back to fight. Someone, the military man who like they can't stay here because of their families also stay there. Other going like women and men going to also support and volunteering. We have so many people who want to defend us. No one can imagine going back to to war and to protect their home.

MG: What does that tell you that so many people? I mean, again, we were at the border and there's all these people who are leaving, but here is a line full of people who are going back. What does that tell you?

KATRINA: That the Ukrainians are united. I even can't imagine how Ukrainians might be united, and I guess Putin also hadn't thought that he will unite us so much. So I'm proud of all the people who gotten back. I have no words definitely about this.

MG: You must have seen some of the images of the cities. I mean, they have been bombed,

KATRINA: of course, from photos, from videos. We have some, like our friends who are now protecting. We have also some relatives who are protecting you, and the news that we receive are definitely inspiring. And that's the reason why we can't just say here.

MG: It must be hard to see the country in that stage, then.

KATRINA: Yes, from my side, I had not yet gave myself this point to be frustrated to lot and like depressed because we will have time later to clear this mind, but not now. Now we need to be focussed and ready to help and fight.

MG: Good luck.

KATRINA: Thank you.

MG: Thank you very much.

KATRINA: Thank you.

MG: Stay safe, please. Thank you. There are burly men in fatigues at the station. They speak English, but refuse to give any information about who they are or what they're doing. An older man who identifies just as Steve wasn't so guarded.

STEVE: Steve.

MG: Steve. Yeah, where are you going?

STEVE: [Unintelligible]

MG: He's near the end of the line for the train to Ukraine. There is a worn canvas bag at his feet, stamped with a Royal Mail logo. Holes in his blue down jacket are covered with pieces of duct tape. And what are you going to do?

STEVE: I'm going to help.

MG: Help how?

STEVE: Where you need needed and make [unintelliglbe]? I don't mind. I've been in the army before. So whoever, wherever they need help. Really.

MG: Why are you going?

STEVE: A good question, really. I'm 57 and bald is something I haven't done for a while, so I don't know. I don't know why I'm going, to be honest. I don't know.

MG: It's a big thing.

STEVE: It is a big thing. You know, it is a big thing. I don't really know why I'm going, you know, midlife, midlife crisis or something. I don't know. I don't know why I'm going, but I just feel like it's the right thing to do.

MG: What do you mean, the right thing to do?

STEVE: And if we can stop the war, it'd be nice. Wouldn't it? If we could stop it altogether and make friends again.

MG: You think you can help?

STEVE: I can do a small piece. If something needed, I can do. I can wash dishes, I can throw molotovs, I can shoot a rifle like in a campfire, you know? We'll see when I get there. You know, I have no idea, to be honest.

MG: And when does the train leave?

STEVE: Again, they don't know. You're just standing there in the line when people come off the train and you get on the train and it's like, there's no timetable anymore. It's going out the window. So you just sit here and wait or stand there and wait talking to you, nice people. I don't like being a sheep, but yes, I am a bit of a sheep at the minute, you know, just following everybody.

MG: Steve, good luck.

STEVE: Thank you. And you thank you.

MG: at the front of the line, a group of men in army fatigues joking and trying on each other's hats. The only one who speaks English is Kamil with the Polish Legion.

SOUNDCLIP

KAMIL: So I'm, uh, I'm, uh, travelling with the Polish legion. We will polish Legion in l[unintelligible] to save Polish people and to help the Ukrainian people, uh, Ukrainian people help with evacuation. With everything.

MG: And so you're going back on the train now.

KAMIL: And so we're waiting for a decision because we have, uh, decision for Polish government. We cannot travel today. And so we waiting for further deterrent for Polish government.

MG: What specifically will you be doing when you get there?

KAMIL: We do it to our base there and we start, uh, helping tutor Ukrainian soldiers or at least the Ukrainian soldiers they can go to fight and we can stay in for help. Police help everything our Polish Legion.

MG: Why is it important for you to be doing this?

KAMIL: So because Ukrainian people help us for many years and uh, we think we must help for Ukraine people and in [unintelligible] 100000 Polish people, and that is for us really important to save the people to the people must feel safe.

MG: are you worried about going?

KAMIL: Uh, no, no. We have everyone for us have, uh, have experience with combat and that is for us, it's normal.

MG: But it's a war.

KAMIL: Yeah, every is war. Our work is war. If we can help the people, this is our work to help the people to save the people. That's we do it.

MG: How do you understand what's happening?

KAMIL: I think this war is really stupid for for everyone, everyone losing this war, everyone lose. There is no winners in this war. There is only only really terrible things. Many people is dying, not only Ukraine and Russia people, it's really international. [Unintelligible]. We can say that the die people from from from everywhere, for every country, and this is for us important to save this people.

MG: What have you seen in terms of we are just at the border and there are a lot of Ukrainians who are coming into Poland. What have you seen here in terms of people helping out?

KAMIL: For me, this is really bringing on so many Polish people, had the Ukrainian people and saved the life for them from there because they have nothing. They leave our home and take nothing with them. Sorry, it is really stress for me.

MG: How long will you be gone for, do you think?

KAMIL: We don't know. We don't know. We stay so long as possible there.

MG: Good luck. Thank you very much.

KAMIL: Thank you.

MG: Kamal isn't sure when he'll be able to go, but there are many others who are making that journey today. I've spoken to Yuri Kushner on the show before over the phone from Ukraine the last time we talked to him. He just dropped his wife and kids at the border today. He's in Poland, feeling lucky to get a quick visit with him.

SOUNDCLIP

YURI: We actually, when we assess each other goodbye, I don't think that we'll see them for a month, if the war ends, which at that time I thought would be about a month or so. But there was a chance that that the ambulance driver. So I actually volunteered to be a driver. And and yeah, that was a chance to see my family briefly and then just started going back to Lviv.

MG: That ambulance is packed full of humanitarian supplies. We were supposed to meet him at the warehouse where he was loading up. But the owner was too nervous to have us there, worried about the Russians finding out where the supplies are coming from. So the meeting point is a gas station. His last stop before crossing the border.

SOUNDCLIP

YURI: Here we specifically have the supplies for Children's Hospital in Kyev. Its name is[unintelligible]. That's the specialised clinic for four children. I would say probably they're the the more sophisticated and the most important to treat children in Ukraine. We need to have enough supplies for the hospital to operate. At least I wouldn't say normally, but at least to the to the capacity it can. So therefore, we believe that this transportation of the goods, medical supplies, there are also some blankets. Some, even like toothpaste, but also more specifically, that is necessary for the children's hospital. You can have a look. It's all packed. So here. So that's that's if you can see almost no room for anything else. We're heading to Lviv early in the morning. Some other group of volunteers will pick it up and transport that to Kyev. I am actually staying in leave. It's only a chance that I came here. The election for the first time probably will not be made anymore because I am picking up the deliveries from the border on the Ukrainian side and then help to deliver that to Lviv. I also delivered coordinates with a couple of friends who are here in Poland to collect some of the necessary supplies and then collect it in one place. And then someone would probably come to that place, pick it up and transfer through the border. Now you would see huge this voluntarian movement that people do not know each other, but they hope and trust each other right away like a small bee. You know, that's that's probably would be small. And but bee I probably more associate with. One bee would not make a jar of honey. What if there are a lot of them, then they can actually create something that they care, that they can do something. And here we can see that many people just joined forces without any commands, without any instructions by the coming of their heart. And I know you can also see that some of the villagers, they actually even work on their limits because it was a small time to sleep and by being like a very, very tight. Sometimes even tensions could arise because people actually are tired psychologically and physically. But later on, when you look back what you accomplished within the day or even within the week or even now as we, we actually we now count, you know, it's something people count the days from the, uh, from the birth of Jesus. We now in Ukraine actually count the days from the time of the war started when the Russians invaded Ukraine. But uh, so if you look back, you see how much not only you personally accomplished, but what people could accomplish and you understand that you are part of it.

MG: In peactime, Yuri is a lawyer. He talks about other people's stress, but not his own as he gasses up before heading back into a war zone.

SOUNDCLIP

YURI: Well, I'm going home. I'm going to protect my homeland. The most effective, efficient way I can at the moment I can help was the supplies. Yesterday I was coordinating and helping the, uh, the German volunteers, cook, communicate with Ukrainian volunteers, though neither of them spoke good English, but all spoke Ukrainian spoke oUkrainian. The German spoke more or less on the German, but there were some of the ability to communicate in English, and that's how it's actually very swiftly unload and help the Germans going back to Germany. Can you imagine 96 tons of humanitarian aid? It was five trucks then. So therefore here I think I am most effective. But if there will be a need that I will be more effective holding the arm, I will then join. I have actually been in contact with some of these units and some of the units of the territorial self-defence territorial defence. So if if I will be more efficient somewhere was the was the rifle was the gun, I'll be there. Now, I believe that my impact will be more of a necessary and more efficient in doing what I'm doing at the moment.

MG: He stops to take a quick call.

YURI: Many volunteers who are driving from other countries, the humanitarian aid to Ukraine, they go with empty buses or empty trucks back to their countries, and they are also helping us by taking on board women with children. So helping them to flee the war and to sit somewhere outside of of Ukraine during the time of the war. And that's also important for parents who are now in territorial defence or in armed forces because if they know that their kids and their wives are safe, then have one thing less to worry about. So that was exactly one driver who just told me that he safely drove one family yesterday, and he said that he will be planning to go again with the delivery and he will be able to take her again two person with him.

MG: Germans like Steffen Krollmann. We meet him in the parking lot of our hotel. He's the CEO of a large German company and is helping bring supplies to the Ukraine border. I asked him, Why is he doing this?

SOUNDCLIP

STEFFEN: I have a good life and I have so much luck with family was my business and I can't believe that we have war in Europe and so everybody is asked to help. And if you stay at home, mom thing happens, so you must do something to help and it's so, so important. And yes, it's maybe a little bit crazy, but you have to go out from your living room to help, and this is the first step for a really good help.

MG: Do people think that you're crazy? CEO of a company doing this work?

STEFFEN: No, no, no, no, no, no. They think, Oh, that's great on staff and you're a good guy. Well done. It's not important that we both come and help. We have so much volume of people here in Europe. They can help. They can drive a bus to the border and put people inside and brings it back to a safe place.

MG: This is your truck.

STEFFEN: Yes.

MG: It's a big truck. What was it filled with?

STEFFEN: It was filled with clothes with medical staff. Um, worse things for the babies. And we go to the border. That's a secret place us because the people are afraid for Russian infiltration and they are afraid that the Russian destroyed this point.

MG: Who are the people that you're taking back?

STEFFEN: Yesterday, we find a young mother with her girl. I think one years old and she has only one small bag. That's all what, what they have. And so I think this is the kind of people we take with us.

MG: We met a lot of people from Germany who are doing the same sort of thing, who are coming down, who are picking people up that they don't know. They don't speak the same language. They get in a car and they drive for 20 hours to get back to Germany. Why do you think people in Germany are doing this?

STEFFEN: Do we know about our history and we know this situation. My mom was born during the Second World War and part of my family was in the resistance against the Nazi regime. And we and our family saw so much incredible things, and this things are important to do everything that this doesn't come back. And so we are motivated and we are a rich country. Maybe a little bit lazy in our actions, but we have some money, we have the time and there's the need. So we help.

[Music]

MG: That's The Current from Poland for this Wednesday. Tomorrow, we'll meet some of the people here sheltering those who are fleeing war in Ukraine. And we'll hear from the Canadian ambassador to Ukraine on Canada's role in addressing this humanitarian crisis. More than two million people have fled Ukraine already, amongst them members of Ukraine's Youth Symphony Orchestra. They were evacuated from the country through Hungary. They're now on their way to Slovakia. We'll leave you today with the Youth Symphony Orchestra performing Concerto Grosso for String by the Ukraine and composer Vitalii Hubere nco.. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

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Wednesday March 9, 2021 Full Transcript

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