Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2022

The Current Transcript for March 4, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

[fclip] " onerror="continue" />

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Police radio logs offer harrowing insight into night of Nova Scotia mass shooting

Guests: Elizabeth McMillan

SOUNDCLIP

When you see nurses mechanically ventilating infants in basements of hospitals, you know, even the toughest of us, we struggle to watch that.

MG: Civilians are suffering mightily in the war in Ukraine and that in the midst of a global pandemic has put incredible pressure on a health care system where supplies are already running low in 30 minutes, why MSF is calling for foreign health care workers to help. Also this morning, the ties between Canada and Ukraine run deep as communications breakdown creativity is required to keep in touch.

SOUNDCLIP

My associate who lives in [unintelligible] quite often he has to go to the village to actually find them to deliver a letter that I've emailed to him so that the families here in Canada are knowing that they're fine.

MG: Coming up, how a tour guide here is using her contacts in Ukraine to help Canadians check in on family members back home. Plus, Nuseiba Hasan disappeared without a trace in her absence wasn't reported for nine years. The investigative journalist, Habiba Nosheen, joins us with a story. Some people didn't want told and a story of her own. She never expected to share. We begin, though, with the search for answers in Nova Scotia. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

A warning the details you're about to hear in this next story are distressing and the 'F' word is used.

SOUNDCLIP

OK, lots of gunshots. Three gunshots. Two more gunshots. We're hearing numerous gunshots.

Be very careful bringing your car down here to avoid ambush. We're all on foot. We're coming past the first burning house now. He was just around the corner, on foot.

MG: Unfortunately, it was a pitch black country night. Three RCMP constables running through the wooded neighbourhood of Portapique, Nova Scotia, where there was a gunman on the loose shooting neighbours and burning down their homes.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We've cut through the trees and attempting to get to the second house fire.

VOICE 2: Be very cautious unless we know for sure he's shooting at someone.

MG: This week, the enquiry into Nova Scotia's mass shooting brought us all sorts of information. We learnt for the first time what it was like for the police officers who were in the rural subdivision that night in April of 2020. These are excerpts from police radio recordings released at that enquiry.

SOUNDCLIP

On the map here, it looks like we're at a big barn. There's a second fire which sits in the centre of the trees. There's no reason to think there's anybody else at risk in there. Do not approach. I don't know when these things are blowing up or they're shooting. I'm not sure the kids that we have on the phone over at one three five on that road, they're saying someone's pounding on their door outside wondering that's a police officer or someone else? No. We have four children in the Red House. Four children in the Red House soon. Two of the kids are from the neighbour's house. They said their parents are dead down the road. We're going to start moving on. We told them to go into the basement and lock everything up, and we're going to keep moving on. Is there anybody else in here with us? We got movement with a flashlight. Is anybody else in here with us? You guys is position as compared to your vehicles where you're lucky. If there's anybody else in here with this, identify yourself right now because we're using the flashlight on their phone in the basement. I know that the kids were using the flashlight on the floor, in the basement, the kids there, you know, we may have the suspect or we saw somebody with flashlights that went dark. We have no idea where he went. So we're going to go back to the Red House. Their children are safe unless we hear more gunfire. We're still a huge disadvantage for three firefighters. The trees are completely pitch black over your fields. You want us just to sit tight here because if this is an active shooter, I don't want to. I just don't know where he is right now.

MG: Those are police recordings from the mass shooting in Port of PICC, Nova Scotia in April of 2020. CBC reporter Elizabeth McMillan is covering the enquiry and she joins us from Halifax. Elizabeth, good morning.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: That is harrowing to listen to, we heard the officers there running through the black of night through the woods. They're confused, they're alone. They don't know who is around them. They don't know where the shooter is. As you have watched this enquiry unfold this week, what struck you most about what you've heard?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: I was struck that there were only three officers on the ground within that subdivision for the first hour and a half. And you know, as we just heard, the radio communications really convey how hectic and confusing it was. They didn't know exactly what they were hearing. There were multiple buildings on fire, and the three Mounties went in on foot because they were worried their cruisers could be targets, but they weren't familiar with the area at all. It was so dark they were checking maps on their phones, trying to figure out where they were. All the while worried about the gunman lurking in the woods and worried about the safety of those four kids hiding in a basement.

MG: We now know that the gunman got away through a back road in a blueberry field. And again, you've hinted at this just in terms of not knowing where they were, but what have we learnt this week about how that happened?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, one of the officers, one of the first officers on scene, spoke to the wife of a man who had been shot and injured. The couple lived on the street, and the wife explained that there's this back road out of the community. The Maori she spoke to radio this information to her colleagues, and she shared that information about 20 minutes after the first officer arrived in Portapique. So fairly early on. But neighbours later told police they saw a vehicle taking that back road around the same time as a radio communication. So it's possible that even if police had sealed off that back road as soon as they heard about it, they may still have missed the gunman. The problem was they didn't realise he'd escaped until the next morning.

MG: What about those children? The four children we heard about that were hiding in that basement for two hours as we heard in the recording, they were worried somebody was banging on the door. They didn't know whether that was police or not. What have we learnt about why those kids weren't rescued earlier?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, it does go back to what we were hearing on those radio calls. The officers were really worried about the possibility of an ambush, and there was only the one team on the ground. And those three Mounties were trying to, not only chase the sound of gunshots they were hearing in hopes of finding the shooter, they were also being dispatched to respond when people called 9-1-1. So people were reporting that someone might be in their yard. They were worried their house was going to be on fire. So that team was covering quite a large area. And as you heard the mention that they, you know, they wanted to shelter in place with the kids, but they were also being called away from that area to cover other emergencies that were coming in. They did check on them at three different points, including when the kids thought they heard thumping. There was no one in the house. It turned out it was explosions that they were hearing from the fires. The children stayed on the line with 9-1-1 more than two hours until a second team finally walked in to get them. That second team also went in on foot just to be careful so that their cruisers wouldn't attract gunfire and they ended up driving. One of the officers ended up driving the kids out to safety in one of the moms cars.

MG: That's incredible.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Mm-Hmm.

MG: It is unclear, and this is important because people in the community are looking for answers, and it's unclear whether the RCMP officers will actually testify at this enquiry that is meant to provide those answers. Why is there union arguing against the officers testifying?

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: Well, the union says it's not necessary that they've already given lengthy statements both to the RCMP and to investigators with the public enquiry. And a lawyer for the union says even if officers are willing to be witnesses, giving testimony could be harmful to their mental health.

MG: We're going to leave it there because we're going to pick up in just a moment with the MLA about how that's going down with community members. We will be listening for your reporting and continue to cover the situation in Halifax. Elizabeth, thank you very much.

ELIZABETH MCMILLAN: You're welcome.

MG: Elizabeth McMillan, CBC reporter who's covering the Mass Casualty Commission she was in Halifax this morning. Tom Taggart is that local MLA for Portapique. For nearly two years, his community has been fighting for more details about what happened. He is in mass town Nova Scotia. Tom, good morning to you.

TOM TAGGART: Good morning.

MG: What surprised you the most about what you've learnt over the course of this week?

TOM TAGGART: Well, before I say that, I'd like to say. Those three officers that I just heard, I've heard that over and over. They're heroes. There's no question about it. But what surprised me the most, quite honestly, is how poor, how badly the the commission has missed. The mark here has really missed what the- has not recognised that there. And I can tell you that I told them this myself the very first time I spoke with them that they had to build trust and they have done anything but build trust. And that's that's really what surprised me and disappointed me.

MG: To build trust with the community.

TOM TAGGART: With the community. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, the community is more and more, I would say. I don't want to say more distraught right now than they were or anxious right now than they were. But I tell you, they're wound up.

MG: Yeah, do they feel members of that community - wound up as is a good way of putting it - do they feel as though they aren't going to get the answers that they are looking for out of this enquiry?

TOM TAGGART: They absolutely do. Yeah, they do. And you know what? The commission knew that coming in here and and whether it's the commission's fault or whether it's the people that laid down the groundwork for the enquiry, I don't know. But you know, the first thing that they had to do was build trust with the community and and the fact that they won't allow the the officers to be questioned. You know, the fact that, you know, Ms. Banfield, the two most other than the victims, the two and the people that were there that night. I guess the two people, the two entities that most that know more about what happened that night have never been allowed to, as I understand it, to speak to you never had to answer questions from from the people that represent the victims, families and the community, whether it's in public or whether it's in private. They've never had that opportunity, which just is just another, just inflames the residents more and more. And it leads more and more and more to the distrust of the authorities and the government and, you know, governing governance, government, whatever, myself included.

MG: When you say Ms. Banfield, that's Lisa Banfield, who's the former common law spouse of the shooter.

TOM TAGGART: Yeah.

MG: Well, let me ask you about the officer's first. Do you believe those officers need to testify?

TOM TAGGART: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And I believe they need to testify under oath

MG: if they don't. I mean, do you think it's at all possible to get and you yourself referred to them as heroes and we just heard the harrowing recordings of what they were going through?

TOM TAGGART: Yeah, but I absolutely do.

MG: Without them testifying, do you think the community will get the answers that it needs?

MG: Never, never. And and they'll never be satisfied that they, you know, if those officers and others, even if it was in private, could answer those questions to the legal people that represent the families? And and then those, those people that are trusted by the families could come out and say, Guys, this is what they've said under oath. You know, this is, you know, I can understand this. I can, I can believe it, you know, but but you know, the people in our communities and that's who I speak for, not for the families of the victims or the people in our communities. We're very distrustful. I mean, we were misled. That's that's on the record is proof positive. We were misled, deliberately misled by the RCMP in the hours and days following the the murders. And so these folks, myself included, need to understand and they need to have confidence that this has been properly and and fully investigated and the chips fall where they may. But until people have that trust, they can't feel good-

MG: Before I let you go. That was the last thing I was going to ask you in the absence of that trust. But also those answers where does it leave the members of this community?

MG: Oh, there. Just where they are, where they were the day after they were murdered? Maybe worse. I talked to people, you know, I called in advance of this interview. I called a lot of people, not that everybody [unintelligible] hadn't called me, but I called a lot of people and they are just as distrustful, just as much anguish, just as much stress as there was time. I can't say this enough, but I know you run out of time, but this might be seem reasonable to somebody that's in Ottawa or Vancouver, Toronto or whatever. But for the people that were here that night, for people that were out and about their homes trying to protect their homes, trying to warn their neighbours, trying to, you know, waking up the next morning was realising this happened. They're the same place they were and it's not going to change until something changes as that enquiry that says we're working for the people of that community. We're not working for the federal government or the federal attorney general or whoever it is. Right. We're working to answer these questions.

MG: I feel for members of your community. We'll talk again, Tom. It's good to speak with you. Thank you.

TOM TAGGART: Thank you very much.

MG: Tom Taggart is the Nova Scotia MLA for Colchester North. The horror of what happened in Portapique shadows tragedies of past situations when RCMP officers have come up against an armed assailant. And my next guest says it shows the urgent need for reform when it comes to how policing is done in rural communities and smaller centres. Christian Leuprecht is with the Royal Military College in Queen's University. He's a professor there. He looks at leadership in policing. Christian, good morning to you.

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: We have seen a number of situations, as I mentioned, where RCMP have responded to active shooters. The results have been, I think it's fair to say, disastrous. What impact do you think the shootings in Moncton and Mayorthorpe had on the police response in this case and part of it?

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: Well, given the RCMP is policing duties in rural Canada and the disproportionate gun ownership in rural Canada, officers know that there is always a disproportionate risk in rural areas that they might confront a firearm on a call. And in this particular situation, officers would have been aware that not only had firearms been discharged, but there was also relatively little information with regards to the gunman. So based on the Mayorthorpe experience, the response would have entailed making sure that the members themselves are safe, which is why the three certified members on the carbine there were four members who responded, but only three were certified on the carbine, went in collectively and had a collective strategy to ascertain what transpired. The first responding officer ascertained that this was most likely an active shooter incident, and they would have also been aware that of the Moncton situation, where effectively incident command made certain mistakes that resulted in members in the line of fire. So and you can see this in the in the Herald voices that we heard earlier in the clips of just the anxiety that the members themselves were facing and the circumstances.

MG: Three officers there. There have been questions before the enquiry as to why RCMP didn't call for backup from nearby police forces from forces in Truro, for example. Would that have made a difference? Do you think?

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: That's a very good question, because I think it's difficult for many Canadians who live in urban centres to understand that what members respond in rural centres backup might be 45 minutes or more away, and so that in many cases they're on their own or they're with their colleague. And so one of the things that I'm sure the enquiry will look at is whether, given the changes that were made after Mayorthorpe and the changes that were made after Moncton, there needs to be different procedures in place any time. For instance, there is a call about a potential discharge of a firearm precisely because it can take so long to get backup, let alone get the sort of backup in a municipal area. If you have an active shooter incident, the staff sergeant might be in charge of dispatch would immediately call in several cars to show up on that scene that be there in a few minutes. He would call in the emergency response team. As we know, the closest emergency response teams were in Moncton and were in Halifax, so it requires a very different posture for police in response. And so the question is what's the posture here appropriate based on the policies in place?

MG: What isn't working? I mean, and you've hinted at this, but what isn't working when it comes to how policing is organised in the Maritimes in particular?

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: So the challenges in the Maritimes is there's significant fiscal constraints on communities, given that at the tax base in many cases is stagnant or shrinking while policing costs continue to go up. And that means there simply are not enough resources to pay for policing.

MG: That they can't pay for their own forces, for example.

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: And this is one of the reasons why, for instance, one of the question is why was, why didn't they call in the local municipal police or Truro Police, for instance? That's because they're not interoperable because there aren't uniform policing standards in Nova Scotia. So as to say Truro Police, for instance, don't have the adequate training to deal with an active shooter incident. They don't have the car by don't necessarily have the the Bullet-Proof vests they haven't practised together. And the reason is that, of course, if as you have in Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, you have provincial policing standards, it would likely price those local communities out of their local forces. And that becomes highly politically contentious. So the province also needs to take some ownership of the fact that they are ultimately in charge of setting the standards, and they made a political decision here that made it impossible in this particular situation to have as much service capacity as possible on site, and that the Mounties essentially had to rely on their own surge capacity.

MG: People in this enquiry and the family members of the victims and those who have been traumatised by this in that community are looking for answers, but they're also looking for some guidance as to how something like this could be prevented in future. What needs to change, then to better equip those forces and protect those communities?

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: So the Police Services Act in this country lay out policing the baseline for policing as adequate and effective policing, and I always translate that to communities as policing needs to meet the needs, values and expectations of those communities. So we need to ask ourselves whether the needs, values and expectations are being met. And I would say if we look across Canada and we look in particular in the Maritimes, there are too many incidents now where this is not the case. And so we ultimately need to, I think, rethink how do we deliver a better quality and better quantity of policing with the limited and constrained resources that we have. And I increasingly think that contract policing, especially in the Maritimes, is no longer serving the public interest that the Maritimes would be better served with a regional police force in the Maritimes and also an ability for those police forces to focus primarily on policing. That is to say, for a larger administrative superstructure to take over many of the administrative and human resource matters. And that would allow us to better allocate and optimise the scarce resources that are in place, especially when, when when push comes to shove in these types of critical incidents where it really matters.

MG: We just have a few seconds left. You've hinted at this and Tom Tiger talked about it as well. Is it important that the decisions are made in community, not in communities that are, you know, far away in Toronto and Ottawa and Vancouver? The people understand the communities that the policing would be based in.

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: Our policing as ultimately local. I mean, Cops is an acronym for community policing. And I think one of the challenges that we have with the RCMP is a federal police force and a federal superstructure that tries to deliver local services and that we can see is struggling to meet adequate and effective policing as as would be defined by those local communities. And I do think we need to think about serious reform in this country.

MG: Christian, good to speak with you. As always, thank you very much.

CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT: My pleasure. Thank you.

MG: Christian Leuprecht is a professor of political science at Royal Military College and Queen's University. His latest book, Intelligence as Democratic Statecraft. You're CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

These are ordinary civilians being broken and the health system is going to have to pull them back together again.

MG: Ukraine's health care system is on the brink. The Russian invasion has disrupted access to critical medical supplies and care in a system that was already facing strain. More on that coming up in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

Back To Top »

How the war in Europe could impact climate change; invasion fuelling health-care crisis

Guests: Svitlana Krakovska, Alex Wade

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come from tour guides to letter carriers, how a BC guide is helping connect people with their loved ones in Ukraine. Plus, Ukraine's health care system is on the brink of collapse as Russian forces advance. But first, a call for climate action in the midst of war.

SOUNDCLIP

Nearly half of humanity is living in the danger zone now, many ecosystems that at the point of no return now and check carbon pollution is forcing the world's most vulnerable on a frogmarched to destruction. Now the facts are undeniable these abdication of leadership is criminal.

MG: As U.N. Secretary General Antonio Guterres, with a stark warning about the need for immediate action on climate change, it was delivered on Monday at the same time as the world watched in horror as Russian shells pounded Ukrainian cities. I'm joined now by somebody who has deep insight into that first existential threat and is facing the second one firsthand. Svetlana Tikhanovskaya is the head of Ukraine's delegation to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. We've reached her this morning in Kyev. Svetlana, hello.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Hello.

MG: What is the situation like in Kyev this morning?

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Well, it's still difficult. I should say is that I am in a safe place of the city, but I just, you know, just very upset the news I have on my messager about Ukraine, about the [unintelliglbe] and nuclear power station, about other cities, several of my friends, because all morning we usually start, you know, to call our circle of friends, colleagues just to ask are you alright. And yeah, and just to keep in touch with all the people we worrying.

MG: All of this has meant that you had to withdraw last week from the negotiations to finalise this latest IPCC report. You said, I can't think about climate change because I can't think about anything other than trying to survive. Tell me about what was happening that made it impossible for you to continue with that work.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Well, it's see, it's very simple. It's well on our land, so you cannot think about other things if you are under threat of this bomb shelling and this attack and everything. And when you just realise that, well, everything just destroyed what your it was brilliant and your all people you love. So it's I guess it should be clear why you stop actually all these things. But in fact, I was thinking about climate change and this war just in parallel. That's why I try to continue all my work when I was able to do it. And that's why actually, I made all this intervention in the last final session of IPCC.

MG: Tell me about that parallel track. What do you see? You have seen the drivers of climate change in Russia's invasion as being similar things. So tell me about that connexion that you see.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Yeah, that's actually was the first question. When I was woke up, we saw this bombing. I was just thinking, why? Why are we on this attack and why to became real and who is responsible and all whose questions were in my head, you know? And I was just realising that, Oh, this Russian army is they are funded by all this money they got from selling the [unintelligible] fossil fuels, in fact. And since this fossil fuel actually is the cause of this human induced climate change and the same, it is the course of this war from Russia. So for me, it's obvious, you know, connection. And that's why I just wanted to bring it up because I understand that, well, climate change will not go home for sure. It exists and it's real. And we have many, many evidences about this. But at the same time in my country, I just realise that, well, not only me, for sure. So everybody actually realise that it's not a local conflict, a violent conflict or how you can name it. It's a really big threat not only for Europe, but for the whole actually global suffering. Because if some big, strong country just decides to take to invade some other smaller and yeah, they support us as a weak country but we are not. So it means it's just to disrupt it, just destroy all all, you know, this global or global order of human civilisation. And in this situation, we cannot actually prevent climate change if we cannot prevent such kind of conflicts.

MG: Do you hold the countries in Europe that have relied on Russian fossil fuels for years? Do you hold them in part responsible for enriching Russia and enabling in some way this war on Ukraine?

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Every everyone who actually did not, you know, will try to create this dependency of this oil and gas as they all actually can be blamed all for the all guilty of this. Everybody who had some connection with all this, they they should. They should stop it, at least. But the problem actually is that they already made it. The Russian army already exist. And this is now a matter of, you know, matter of hours or minutes to react. And if we speak about climate change, we still have, let's say, months. So it's different to scale of action should be right now.

MG: What has to happen now in the midst of a war to ensure that the focus remains on climate change? You've said in some ways that the window of opportunity is even more narrow because we the world has to solve this problem first.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: We're pretty sure that, and we're pretty clear that this work should be stopped in Ukraine. Other countries are still not involved directly, let's say, in this conflict. So they should to continue their efforts to stop climate change. So they need to do to make this transformation. And in this context, this report of Working Group two on [unintelligible] and adaptation, it's really very relevant. That's why actually, I told that I'm really sorry that this week this news, this key messages from the supporters should compete in media space with the war. But anyway, I understand that it should be in parallel. Again, I said that we're not surrendering Ukraine to protect our country, and we hope that world will not surrender to to build this climate resilient world. So this was my message, and I just said that we all unite in Ukraine to protect us from enemies, and the whole world should be united to protect against climate change. So in this way, I try to to bring attention actually to both problems. But again, it's all a matter of time scale.

MG: Well, and as you've said, I mean, in some ways you're competing in that media space. There are two huge stories without this war. This report would have been front page news in many ways. What are you most worried about as the attention of the world is forced away from climate change because of a war?

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Well, yeah, because there are many actually vulnerable regions in our world that experience this impact of climate change right now, and the report clearly says that it's almost half of population, in fact, they are in this region right now again so under the impact of climate change, and this is a very powerful message as well. And that's a powerful message for me from this report that we still have this window of opportunity to adapt to climate change. And the problem is this window of opportunity is now much narrower due to this war and due to this threat again to this global sovereignty. This should not compete. They should be sold. But we cannot solve climate crisis. When will not solve this problem of global order.

MG: Do you think the unity that you have seen in the face of the Russian invasion could help in addressing climate change? The sense that the world many parts of the world seem to be pulling together in support of Ukraine.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Yeah, that's true. That's what actually we can do all together. We're we as humans, which has we have this values of humanity. So that's why we we really feel this solidarity from other countries and be very simple to all of these people around the world. I receive every day hundreds of messages from from my colleagues, friends and everywhere and again, I said them the same. I said to them as we unite here, we will not have to be dependent on dependency and we will and we should defend our human civilisation. The problem is that this climate crisis maybe not so obvious in many other parts of the world to be a more safe place with a better climate conditions. And actually Ukraine was such place before war. So in Ukraine, we have very good climate conditions. We are far from oceans. We far from Arctic. We're far from tropical cyclones. We have beautiful and rich soils. So everything is fine. We have forests. So we were actually hoping to build this society and to make this adaptation measures inside our country just, you know, two weeks ago. Well, it's I was speaking to my authorities suppose this climate, climate migration, climate refugees. But we didn't expect that we will be invaded these weapons from our neighbour who are supposed to be brotherhood. So this is but again so- I just cannot, you know to say how we can resolve the situation, and we just understand that for all the world, if they not understand this threat, this ecological threat is they will build, they will adapt to climate change. But then suddenly, some other countries which pretend to be most strong, then they will just destroy their country, as we know, we have nuclear power stations [unintelliglbe].

MG: I was just gonna say, finally, how long will you stay in Kyev?

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: I don't know how long it'll stay here. So as far as I, I think that we are in security because I have four children and we're all here to stay still. Yes, I suppose it's my duty to stay and just say truth to the world.

MG: Stay safe, and I'm really glad to talk to you. The work that you're doing is important and it is important that it gets attention. So thank you for talking to us about it and be well.

SVITLANA KRAKOVSKA: Yeah, thank you.

MG: Svitlana Krakovska is head of Ukraine's delegation to the Internet Governmental Panel on Climate Change, and we reached her this morning in Kiev. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. In the midst of war and the ongoing pandemic, the Ukrainian health care system is on the brink. The U.N. has urgently appealed for help from the international community for humanitarian aid. Supplies of oxygen and medication are scarce. Patients in need of critical care are now being housed in basements of hospitals to avoid the bombings. Yesterday, Ukraine and Russia agreed on the need for safe humanitarian corridors. Doctors Without Borders has been in Ukraine since 2014 and is now part of the emergency response. Alex Wade is an emergency coordinator with Doctors Without Borders. He's in Lviv. Alex, hello.

ALEX WADE: Hi.

MG: What's the situation in Lviv this morning?

ALEX WADE: In Lviv, it's quite calm, I would say, compared to the rest of the country, many of us relocated here in order to find sort of a safe place to work and regroup so that we can mount our emergency response as quickly as possible.

MG: Tell me about that work and what your teams are doing right now.

ALEX WADE: So we were already present in Ukraine when the conflict started. We've been working here for for many, many years. We came in in 2014, when the conflict in the East started, so unfortunately we've had to suspend all of the activities that were ongoing. However, we did have emergency medical kits pre-positioned in the country in the event of an escalation of the conflict in the in the East. So we were able to quickly donate many of these kits, which involved surgical capacity for wounded preparing hospitals for what are called mass casualty incidents where they receive a lot of wounded at one time. We were able to donate these to hospitals that are receiving wounded, including in Mariupol and in Kyev. Unfortunately, at this time, those kits are almost fully exhausted. So now we're also working on bringing in a huge amount of supply from outside of the country in order to continue to source hospitals that are receiving the highest number of wounded. And we have the highest needs right now as the conflict evolves.

MG: What are the greatest needs? I mean, again, we are seeing increasingly civilians, observers are saying, being targeted that they are facing the brunt of these attacks. Where are you seeing the greatest needs right now?

ALEX WADE: I'm not able to confirm any of that from anything we've seen directly. What I can say is that we are in direct contact with hospitals that are in cities that are in conflict zones, and they have confirmed to us that they are receiving dozens, in some cases, possibly hundreds of wounded. These are civilian hospitals. And so we are trying to continue to supply them with everything they need. They are in danger of losing their supply chains if they get cut off, and then they could very quickly run out of vital supplies in order to treat the wounded they're seeing. We also know from the communities we've been working with for the last eight years in the East and also our staff who are still out there, that there are towns without electricity, without water, without gas, which also means no heating and it gets below freezing at night and so we are worried that those conditions, if they remain like that, could also have serious impacts on the population. Also, you have all of the medical needs, urgent medical needs that every population has, even when there's not conflict. You have pregnant women who need access to safe delivery. You have elderly populations with chronic diseases who need access to insulin or haemodialysis. These are conditions which if you don't have if you don't have uninterrupted access to health care, it can lead to very, very serious complications and deaths and death very quickly.

MG: I was going to say that speaks to the work that you were doing before. That was, as you said, suspended because the war unfolded. What was that work and where does that leave the population of Ukraine?

ALEX WADE: Yes. So what we've been doing in the East was really working with communities that were affected and continue to be affected by the conflict that started in 2014. We were working with vulnerable communities that had their access to care interrupted, and we were working on really capacity building alongside with the local Ukrainian health system to try to create those links between the vulnerable populations, often elderly populations or populations that were unable to move and relocate when the conflict started in 2014 and make those links so those communities could have the continued access to care that they required. So all of those services have, of course, been suspended, and the needs have definitely piled up since. For the reasons I recently mentioned.

MG: Yesterday, as we mentioned, there was the agreement on the need for safe humanitarian corridors. What would that mean for the work that you're doing, but also for the the civilians who are caught up in this?

ALEX WADE: Yes. And I also can't confirm whether that's happening. We've heard that as well. I think such corridors would be very important because it would allow the populations that are currently in harm's way to leave and relocate to safer, safer locations. We know that people, for example, that are close to the line of contact now are an incredibly difficult position without water, food is getting lower and running low. And then, of course, the conflict itself creates a very dangerous environment. So allowing populations civilian populations to leave those areas would allow them to get to safety would also allow us to have the access to the places that we want to have access to in order to be able to assess the needs and and support the hospitals and support the communities that are there are suffering from this conflict. One of the biggest challenges we have is that with every day, we could lose access to places where we're trying to support, but might no longer be able to do so.

MG: And in the midst of all of this, you have an attack on this nuclear plant overnight. And there's I mean, the facility is secure, but obviously when something like this happens, people's worst fears suddenly start to come into their mind about the possibility of followed the possibility of the reactor being compromised. What are you doing to put parts in place should that unfold?

ALEX WADE: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. It's it's it's sort of outside my my scope of expertise to to manage this situation on that level. So I mean, I think we will be in touch with other agencies that have more expertise in that in that regard. But it's definitely, really, really concerning. And we we certainly hope, we hope the situation will remain stable and we won't have such a situation on our hands, but it's something that we all do need to be worried about. It just speaks

MG: to the fluidity of what's happening right now and what does that mean in terms of the unpredictability when you're trying to do this work and the situation is changing sort of not even day by day, but hour by hour,

ALEX WADE: we just try to stay focussed on and on really understanding what the needs are, the medical needs of the population. So we have contacts with hospitals, we have contacts with local communities, we have contacts with our our staff who live throughout the country. And so as the situation evolves and as you said yourself, it evolves very quickly. We're trying to to monitor and assess where the needs are and get essential supplies to the hospitals that are really the ones receiving most of the wounded as quickly as we can while we can. For us, that remains sort of the most important thing is having continued access to all of the communities, whoever they are, wherever they are, we hope to be able to access those communities and continue to deliver them aid as they as they suffer. The consequences of this conflict,

MG: wherever they are, is really important. Again, we're seeing these images of of newborn babies in bomb shelters, people giving birth in the subway stations, which have been converted in some ways into shelter bomb shelters as well. What is? Does that complicate the care that doctors can give when it's not in even what would normally be considered, you know, a difficult situation?

ALEX WADE: Yeah, it complicates it enormously. I mean, you know, the first thing is making sure you have the qualified personnel in the right places. And then after that, you need to get the right supply to the right places. And so if you have particular company complications, for example, with birth, then you might not have the tools necessary to save a life to save the child that you otherwise could be a routine operation. I mean. And then as as we said, that getting supply into the supply will will dry up in these areas if they don't have a continued supply chain. And when that happens that you doctors are far more limited in the different sort of interventions they can carry out in order to save lives or or reduce morbidity. And so as this conflict drags on with each day, the more places could be at risk of losing that supply.

MG: There is an exodus of people out of Ukraine, more than a million people, people who can have fled the country. But there are doctors and nurses who are signing up to go into the country. Who are they?

ALEX WADE: You know, I think something we have seen is especially along the borders was, you know, really strong signs of solidarity from some individuals. We did some assessments on the borders and saw that many of the needs specifically on the borders were being met in terms of water, in terms of shelter, in terms of blankets, because it's cold by individual volunteers who chose on their own to go to the store, buy supplies and and meet refugees on the borders to help them in. So many of the doctors and nurses, I assume, are the same individuals who are volunteering. We are also as medicines over trying to bring in international staff to help support our teams here so that we can beef up our operations and respond wherever the needs may be.

MG: These are early days still, and I just wonder what you're most concerned about as this drags on.

ALEX WADE: For us, in terms of our own operations, what we're most concerned about is losing access to the places where the needs might be the highest. And so we would want to be in the place, as I said, whoever the populations are and wherever they are, if they have medical needs, we would want to be able to be present and help and support the local health systems to meet those needs. We are very concerned that the needs will increase as the war, as the conflict continues both the direct results of the conflict, but also, as I mentioned, the other health needs in the population, including COVID 19, which is is still present in vaccination rates in Ukraine, are lower than one might want. So we are worried that the needs will increase, but access will decrease, and that's probably our biggest concern.

MG: Is there just finally one thing that you've heard from your teams there on the ground that puts into sharp focus the scale of what we're seeing right now? Again, we're watching this from the other side of the world, but the images are so present in our minds is that what have you heard that really drives that home?

ALEX WADE: I think I think for us, one of the things that drives on the hardest is we have colleagues and communities that people we know and have worked with who who are really in the epicentre of works and the fighting is happening right now. And so that is it's having that direct contact with people we know who are going through this, that really drives home the urgency of of needing to get help to the populations that need it.

MG: Stay safe and we'll talk again. Thank you very much.

ALEX WADE: Thank you.

MG: Alex Wade is an emergency coordinator with Doctors Without Borders MSF. He was in Lviv, Ukraine. Coming up after your regional update, how a Canadian tour company is helping connect people with their loved ones in Ukraine. Plus, a young Jordanian Canadian woman went missing. Her case went unreported for nine years. Now, a new podcast is trying to figure out what happened. We'll tell you that story coming up. The Current back in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

Back To Top »

Worried Canadians can't contact family in Ukraine. A tour guide in B.C. is helping to track them down

Guests: Myrna Arychuk, Ruslan Cholovskyy

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. These are difficult times for Canadians with friends and family living in Ukraine. Almost one and a half million Canadians can trace their family history back to that country. Myrna Arychuk is a travel agent and tour guide based in Chilliwack, B.C. and for nearly 30 years, she has been running tours of Ukraine for Canadians looking to get back in touch with their roots. She does this in collaboration with Ruslan Cholovskyy, who's a tour guide based in the city of Chernobyl in western Ukraine. Over the years, they have built up an extensive network of contacts across some of Ukraine's most rural and remote areas, and they are now using those networks to help Canadians get information on the safety and whereabouts of their family members in Ukraine. Myrna and Ruslan. Good morning to you both.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Good morning.

MYRNA ARYCHUK: Good morning.

MG: Myrna, I'll start with you. How is your family in Ukraine? What have you heard?

Speaker 3: Well, they're in western Ukraine, on the outskirts of Lviv, and some of them by the Polish border and [unintelligible]. And then Ruslan lives in Chernobyl, so he is like my main contact when I have to phone or if I can't get through on the phone and he'll look it up and see if it's a landline, a cell phone, whether they've moved. But right now, it's pretty difficult for you, isn't it, Ruslan, because you really can't get out to a village or move around?

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: It depends. Depending on what village, what province and so on. Now it's not so easy. And even if you're, if you know, people might be there, they can move and you will not know it. And to get from one place to another place, it's very difficult because it is necessary to perform all the war rules. It means you have to go through the checkpoints, but it is normal. Nobody safe and this is something that you have to do if you want to to be safe and if you want, you can [unintelligible]

MG: Ruslan, how are you in Chernobyl? Tell me what the situation is like in that part of the country.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: This part of the world or Ukraine is, I would say, OK because this is vast in Ukraine. This province is neighbouring to Liviu and to Magnitsky on the East. But things but now everything is fine thanks to our army. We are safe. And of course, we have some different life, as it was before. But comparing two to this scale, which happens in east, in east of Ukraine, in EU or south of Ukraine, I can say this is everything very fine.

MG: I'm glad you're safe. Myrna, when did you realise that that you could use your connexions to help other Canadians who were struggling to get in touch with relatives back in Ukraine?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: If you're talking 30 years ago. My grandmother really wanted to go to Ukraine and she was petrified to go. So I said to her, Well, I'll take you out, I'm going to take your next thing. I know I have like 10 people that have brothers and sisters who are also afraid to go. And in those days, it was communist times. So you weren't allowed to go to the villages. You weren't allowed to step off the kerb basically without somebody watching you. But my grandparents and my grandparents friends were absolutely thrilled. They did manage to see their brothers and sisters. And in those days, they were probably in their 60s or 70s, and that was the first time they had seen them since they were in their 20s. So it was very emotional and I thought, Wow, you know, this is such a special thing to do for people. So after they came back, well, of course I got another whole batch and then it just kept growing. And now, like Ruslan, does you know all the tracing going to the village, finding them, see if they move to Poland and you do have to have somebody there because you couldn't do this, all just arrive and think you can, you know, do all this homework. And of course, a lot of them don't speak Ukrainian, so either Ruslan or I go with them. That's why we know all these families. The villages are small, so everybody knows everybody there, and they recognise Ruslan immediately as they do myself too.

MG: Well, in this war, I mean, this has to take the way that you describe it. Those family ties and the ties with with the land are really, really powerful. But in the midst of a war, when people can't get in touch with each other, you're working day and night to try and facilitate those connections right?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: Right. I've been on the phone or at least two weeks, right, Ruslan. At first, you know the panic and sometimes I can get through to them and other times I have to call Ruslan to phone them because the landline or whatever doesn't work for me from this phone, but it works for me.

MG: What are they asking you when they call you?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: Well, they want to know where they are. Are they in a bunker or they don't they go to? Poland, do they have food, are they safe, do they need money and that sort of thing?

MG: How and how desperate are they when they call looking for that sort of information?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: The Canadian ones are desperate, but when Ruslan and I called the family, they're all they care about is that somebody cares about them. They say they have food. The family in Ukraine is just so grateful they cry when they think that their family has not forgotten them, and it's emotional. I have to get off the phone and I said, take a minute to, you know, anyway - Ruslan, you can carry.

MG: Well, just before that, and I don't mean to take a moment, but what is what is it that makes you so emotional about about those calls that you're helping to facilitate when

MYRNA ARYCHUK: you know they're not asking for, not money or anything, they just want the connexion that they're going to be free one day and that their family still cares about them for, you know, pray that their family doesn't forget them.

MG: And it's really powerful.

MYRNA ARYCHUK: It is. It is, you know, we think that maybe asking for money or get me out of here or do something. Some of them are too old. They can't do it.

MG: Ruslan, when when Myrna calls, how are you able to help get information for those family members back here in Canada? Walk us through what you do.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: First of all, I'm trying to connect to to find some how to contact people I'm contacting through the village conceals. Or it may be that I have some people whom I know already because for these many years, we are working with Myrna together. I know many people in different corners of Ukraine, so sometimes I just go to this area to my friends whom I help and last may do know somebody there or there or there and so on. And so it works. In Ukraine, we have such saying that your tongue helps you find the way to kill you. So we are doing.

MG: And it helps with the fact that, as Myrna was saying, people know each other that in a small village, everybody would know somebody else.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Small village. Yes, it helps a lot.

MG: How difficult is it to find that information, especially now in the midst of a war?

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Well, now it's a little bit more difficult, but even earlier it was different situations. You know, earlier, for example, if family left and it wasn't the first wave of immigration family left and the family didn't have contact for the years if they moved end of the 19th century and the first time they decided to meet their relatives, you know, just in the 90s, it was very difficult. Sometimes you come to the village, you start giving questions. People just look at you and they can not tell you anything because since they moved, it was World War One. It was World War Two. It was a resistance movement in western Ukraine, so people, [unintelligible] everything. It was also German occupation. People could be killed, people could be deported to Siberia. So sometimes we had such cases when it was impossible to find the relatives, but we had a lot of case of that. You found family, you know, it was a really very emotional people who never saw their relatives, Just were told by grandma and grandpa. Or, you know, my brother or my sister moved to North America. And only from such a telling such family stories, they could find somebody. It was very helpful when people had old envelopes, when it was written something, and from these old letters, old envelopes, they may find kind of information. I remember one case that one person from Canada came here in western Ukraine and they met people, and they couldn't tell exactly are they related or not. But very old lady come into the house and brings an old picture and says, Listen, I have kind of a picture, can you look at that? And this person from Canada says, Oh my goodness, this is my mother, my mother's picture, who was there. So it was really something big for the family to meet the relatives, to meet their roots.

MG: It's really emotional. Why are you? Why are you doing this, Ruslan, especially now in the midst of a war, there's so much going on. Why is it so important for you to be involved in this?

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Well, you know, I'm already used to it and it helps me. And now everybody is doing what he can. Somebody is fighting, somebody is collecting food or money, somebody is preparing another kind of job. So everything is appreciated, you know? So you have to do what is possible to do. Our journalists are making their their job. Our Doctors are doing their job, everything you can do will be helpful.

MG: Myrna, you're watching this from afar and you have great affection and close ties with the country, but you're here in Canada. What is it like for you seeing this unfold from a distance?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: I have to help them, too. I've been collecting money. Today, we had two people from our church take a load of medical supplies and whatever they're leaving today from Vancouver to go to the Polish border, the Ukrainian border with supplies that they run out in Poland and in the Ukraine. So you have to step up every day. I thank God for the freedom that we have. I'm first generation Canadian. I was born here. My mother was born in Poland, or it was Ukraine, [unintelligible] but they changed borders. So every day I'm thankful I get up and they say, You know what? It's a great day. And then when I talked to the families here, I'm grateful that I can help them because for them, quite often it's really important to know that they're OK over there.

MG: Is there anything, Myrna, that you would say this is a really difficult moment. So is there anything that you would say to your friend Ruslan?

MYRNA ARYCHUK: Thank you, Ruslan. Slava Ukraini. We will survive this one, too.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Of course we will survive and we will win.

MYRNA ARYCHUK: And we will win. Exactly. He's my inspiration when I bought him in the morning. You know, I said, How is it? And he says, we are winning. So the people are standing up.

MG: I'm really glad to speak with you both. Myrna, thank you very much.

MYRNA ARYCHUK: Thank you for having us.

MG: And Ruslan, take care of yourself and thank you very much.

RUSLAN CHOLOVSKYY: Thank you, too. Bye bye.

MG: Myrna Arychuk is a travel agent and tour guide based in Chilliwack, B.C.. Ruslan Cholovskyy is also a travel agent and tour guide, and he is in Turnbull, Ukraine.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Worried Canadians can't contact family in Ukraine. A tour guide in B.C. is helping to track them down

Guest: Habiba Nosheen

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. What happened to Nuseiba Hasan has been a mystery for more than 15 years. She was a 26 year old woman who disappeared without a trace from her home in Hamilton, Ontario. For the past three years. Investigative journalist Habiba Nosheen has been looking into this story. Habiba is the host of the podcast The Disappearance of Nuseiba Hasan. Habiba, Hello.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Hi, Matt.

MG: Who was Nuseiba Hasan?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: When we began looking into this, what I knew about Nesbo was that she was a 26 year old woman from Hamilton, Ontario, who disappeared in 2006 without a trace. The the thing that immediately stands out to you is that nobody reported her missing for nine years.

MG: What do you mean?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: The first time somebody walked into a police station and said, Hey, this, you know, this woman's missing was nine years after she had been missing. That's just strange because we're talking about like she lived in the middle, like downtown Hamilton. You know, she had a life. She was going to school. Like, How does that happen? That question just bugged me so much. We hear all the time, like first 72 hours of of a person disappearance are like super key to trying to find that person. That's why we have things like Amber Alert, but we're talking about like 72000 hours go by and nobody notices or nobody goes to the police. It's been really challenging for the police to backtrack and try to find any evidence because so much time has gone by before they were even alerted. So any potential for evidence all that. It just gets so much harder when you have a nine year gap.

MG: Your introduction to this story came from an email. Tell me about the email!

HABIBA NOSHEEN: So it was anonymous email quite cryptic. And it says essentially that you should look into the disappearance of this woman. And there's, you know, something really strange about this case. I'm happy to help you. However, I must remain anonymous because I fear for my safety. That's a pretty intense email to get. And you're just like, Why? So it goes on for a long time. I connect with this person and I say to them, I can think about protecting your identity, but I need to know who you are because I need to be able to vet the person who I'm talking to. And that leads us to this really remarkable story of this young woman who is adopted and is obsessed with this question of who is my birth mother. And she just turns into this like junior detective always searching for things, always trying to find the answer to this question. And then stumbles on this article. And she knows nothing about her mother, by the way, she doesn't know her name. She doesn't. She roughly knows her age because she knows that her mom was a certain age when she was born, but she knows nothing except she's Jordanian Canadian. She knew that she was from Hamilton, and that's it. And then one day she stumbles on a news story about a missing Jordanian Canadian woman, and that's essentially how she begins to piece together that this missing woman is her birth mother. And the story of that in itself is just incredibly remarkable. And frankly, if I wasn't investigating it, I wouldn't believe it. It's that crazy to sort of, how do you piece together this really crucial, important information about your life when you have so little to go on?

MG: I'm assuming as an investigative journalist, you get all sorts of I have a hot tip, something in. I need you to look into that. You probably think thank you very much and you file that in the file and it may not be looked at again. Why did you look at this?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: This email was unique because it was short to the point, and it contained very easily verifiable information. And for a journalist who has like, you know, 50000 things going on, you're like, OK, this there's five facts in here. I can easily Google and tell you if any of these facts don't turn out to be true, I can move on. So as soon as I Google it, I read this. You know, a couple of news stories. You know, it was like one news hit four from like the CBC online story and one was from the Hamilton Spectator, all just basically saying this woman has gone missing. And the police wasn't alerted for nine years .

MG: You didn't know anything about that story before.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: I had never heard of this woman. No idea who she was until this email, and I think there was also something about how fearful this person seemed. That was intriguing, like she wants to alert you, but she also is. She's terrified, and she doesn't say in the email that I'm related to this person. So I try to find out, well, how who sent this email and we can't. It's untraceable the way that this person sent it. And you're like, Wow, this person has gone through a lot of lengths to make sure that they stay hidden, and I think there was the intrigue of that. And when we started corresponding and before we ever sat down, we went back and forth for close to a year for me to try to convince her to to talk, and I knew that I couldn't tell this story without her, she's such an important part of of this journey that and for a long time, she just was so hesitant, even meet in person. So ultimately, we, you know, have the interviews with her. We meet her, but we don't share her name or the location where she lives.

MG: Did you have any hesitations around this? I mean, given the fact that she was being so cautious and you start the story by saying that there are people who don't want you to tell this story?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Yeah, I was cautious, but as soon as you hear her story, you get why she's cautious. You have a young woman. Yasmeen is what we are calling her in the story. She was given up when she's two years old. And that's unusual because most people who voluntarily give up their child. The kid is an infant, but you don't. You don't really take care of a child for two years and then abruptly drop them off and say, I can't take care.

MG: And that's what happened to Children's Aid Society. Essentially, were approach to the birth mother says, I can't do this anymore, and I'm giving my child up.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: And she's so hesitant. She doesn't want to talk about why. And the family that ends up adopting Yasmeen, they tell me that when they began the process, the social workers, at CAS said, Look, we're going to start this process, but please don't get your hopes up. We are sure this woman is going to come back because she loved this child and there was no sign of any abuse. There was just nothing, no neglect. And they're like, We're sure this woman's going to come back. We'll start the process. But that's what we think and nothing. They never hear from this woman again. And I think because of the abrupt circumstances with which Yasmeen has given up when she finds out that her birth mother is missing, she's haunted by that question because she thinks she has something to do with it. She thinks her existence has something to do with the fact that this woman has gone missing because those two things seem very unusual not to be related. So I think part of the thing that is moving her is to try to deal with this immense guilt that I think she carries.

MG: I've listened to the first two episodes of this, and I mean, a lot of this detail is later to the first and kind of just hooks you and reels you in. In the second episode of the podcast, you describe a couple of photos of Nuseiba Hasan. Here's a clip of you describing those photos. Take a listen!

SOUNDCLIP

HABIBA NOSHEEN: One is kind of official looking as if from an ID of some kind. In it, she's staring straight at the camera, wearing a hijab that covers her hair in the other photo. She looks like a completely different person. In that one Nuseiba doesn't have a hijab. And instead, you can see her short, black, curly hair. It looks kind of like a selfie.

MG: Tell me about those two photos and why they stood out to you.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: So I'm from Pakistan and I'm a first generation Canadian. When you are a woman who wears a hijab, lots of women in my family do, you wear that. That's what you do in public settings, especially if you have an ID photo where you've covered your head. That's a conscious decision you've made, and there aren't really photos of you out there that are not covered because that defeats the whole point of, you know what, that's all about. When I notice that she has these pictures that she's not wearing a hijab and then sometimes she is. It felt like she's conflicted and she's struggling with with wearing it and not wearing it. And that's a that's a world I can relate to. I'm from a very strict religious Muslim family and we all grew up, we were all expected to wear the hijab. And by the time I turn into, you know, I got to my teen years, I didn't want to, and it wasn't a very thought out decision. I just didn't feel like that's who I was. So when I was around my parents, I would have my head covered and I would wear that. And then as soon as my parents weren't around, I would take that off. In those photos side by side, there's a contrast in them that I recognise.

MG: And there's something going on. Yeah, there's there's a deliberate step there.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: There's something happening and it was mysterious, but it was also intriguing to me because I was like, I, I recognise that world. I know what that's like. And I wonder if she struggled with the same things. And as I start reporting the story, I am shocked by the similarities between my life and Nuseiba's. And it's eerie, and I can't think of a way to investigate this without being transparent and honest about the parallels in our lives, because I think that would be being dishonest.

MG: The other part of this is is is in terms of parallels, is you as a mother?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Yeah.

MG: Which is again the way that you revealed this is a part of your own story that as a journalist, perhaps you weren't initially thinking that you would bring out, but it is such a part of this. Tell me a little bit about those parallels.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: So when Yasmeen begins corresponding with me, she has no idea who I am. She just knows I'm an investigative journalist. That's all she knows. But I'm also an adoptive mother, and my child was given up under very similar mysterious circumstances, and I know nothing about who gave birth to my child. So when she's describing this like feeling that she lives with, throughout her life wanting to know about the woman who gave birth to her, I immediately think, I know, I know what you're talking about.

MG: She's talking about me going online and obsessively looking for information to find out more. And she can't find anything.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: She can't find anything. She's looking at her adoption documents. She's trying to piece together any narrative she can. She's trying to search and like Google, searches constantly. And she just obsessed with this question that she wants to find out who gave birth to her. And I have a similar obsession with who gave birth to my child.

MG: I have no idea where this story goes, which is delicious and exciting and slightly frustrating, but mostly exciting because I'm going to kind of be reeled along with the listeners. What is it really about, do you think, when without revealing what's what's at the heart of this? What do you think this story is really about?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: I think it's about love, family and secrets. It's about secrets that this this woman is determined to uncover. And there's a love there that like I have never heard anyone sort of go into that world so deeply and express the the love that they feel for this woman who they have never met. And that really comes through for me when I'm talking to Yasmeen. It's a story about trying to find the truth when there are people who actually don't want you to. Because if you think about it, missing person stories are different, inherently because you need the public, you know, news coverage about a missing person. Everybody in their life wants to help and say, Hey, you know this woman's missing. OK, well, we didn't find out for nine years, but now we know that...

MG: Someone saw something.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Someone saw something, and we're going to find out in this story. There's not a single person quoted in any news articles who say, I'm related to her. I was a friend of hers. There is nothing, no human being comes forward and sort of and accepts her and says, like, Yep, I know her. And that's kind of weird. And it's untangling that and the complexities of that that I think is at the heart of what ultimately you'll hear.

MG: Gobbled up your life for three years.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Yes.

MG: Do you at all regret opening that email?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Not at all. I mean, it's been a journey that I did not expect that I would be on, but I've learnt a lot about myself, whether we find out what happened to her or not. I think the fact that she was missing for nine years, it just doesn't sit well with me. And I think building this portrait was twofold. One. I'm building a portrait for this woman who has always wanted to know who her birth mother was, and I'm able to talk to people, fine people and bring her to life. And I think that's a way of honouring her, honouring this woman I have never met, but also just the parallels that we lived through. She was persistent. She knew what she wanted in her life, and that comes through when I talk to people who knew her. It's a very emotional journey to be on to say I want to live my life differently than how my parents imagined. And you're also talking about this in the context of all the Islamophobia that exists. So though I'm challenging what's happening and what I don't want in my life, I'm also seeing this stuff in in a space that's incredibly racist towards people who look like my parents so that that can be really silencing because you worry about sharing your story, you worry about sharing because you don't want your narrative and what happened to you being hijacked by people who for their racist purposes. And as a Muslim woman, you live with that guilt. If I say something, I'm going to expose people who I love, and that's kind of the tricky thing that I think Nuseiba also struggle with.

MG: Will be listening. Thank you. Have you been as an investigative journalist and host of the Gimlet Media podcast The Disappearance of Nuseiba Hasan is now available on Spotify. That's The Current for this week and for this Friday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's q. The actor Harvey Fierstein talking about his new memoir I Was Better last night. Duncan McCue will be in this chair on Monday. Later today, The Current is headed to Poland. More than a million people have fled Ukraine in the last nine days, and next week on this programme, we'll bring you their stories and the stories of what happens after they get out of Ukraine will be on the border between Ukraine and Poland. That's coming up next week on The Current. We'll talk to you then. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Friday March 4, 2021 Full Text Transcript

More Stories Like This