'This is a cautionary tale': Hillary Rodham Clinton & Louise Penny on writing an international thriller
CBC Radio | Posted: October 15, 2021 7:00 PM | Last Updated: October 15, 2021
'It was important for us to break the mould to have really strong, smart women characters.'
Respectively, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Louise Penny represent a high-profile American political figure and a bestselling Canadian mystery novelist. But Rodham Clinton and Penny are also dear friends. In fact, Rodham Clinton has regularly visited Penny at her home in the Eastern Townships — the region of Quebec that provides the setting for Penny's bestselling Inspector Gamache series of mystery novels.
Together, the duo have collaborated on a new political thriller called State of Terror. The 512-page novel follows a novice U.S. secretary of state trying to unravel the global conspiracy behind a wave of terrorist attacks. Rodham Clinton, an author of non-fiction and memoir herself, read lots of Penny's Inspector Gamache novels before and after her defeat in the 2016 election. They gave her comfort — along perhaps with chardonnay and yogic breathing.
But when it was suggested, by their respective publishers, that the duo work together on a book, comfort was the last thing on Penny's mind. In fact, in the acknowledgements of State of Terror, Penny writes about how fearful she was at the thought of writing the co-authored novel.
While Penny's Inspector Gamache mystery series are hugely popular — the 17th and latest book, The Madness of Crowds, was released in August 2021 and the series itself is being adapted to screen — writing a political thriller was out of Penny's comfort zone. But she says she pushed past the initial discomfort by considering the poster she has framed on the wall of her writing room; it's the final words of the Irish poet Seamus Heaney which were in Latin: Noli timere, or "Be Not Afraid."
Fear was also part of the equation for Clinton when she first thought about writing State of Terror. She reflected on her years as secretary of state in the Obama administration and thought about nightmare scenarios that would wake her with a start in the middle of the night.
One of those became the core of the co-written story: an international terror plot involving nuclear weapons. State of Terror opens with a new U.S. president, Douglas Williams, and his novice secretary of state, Ellen Adams. Adams came to D.C., intent on fixing the disarray and divisiveness that was sown by the previous U.S. President Eric Dunn. Within weeks of taking on the job, the world is rocked by a series of terrorist attacks. From there, Secretary Adams walks a tightrope of influence and authority in an effort to prevent a geopolitical nightmare.
Rodham Clinton was at her home in Chappaqua, N.Y., and Penny was in New York City when they connected with Shelagh Rogers of CBC Radio's The Next Chapter to talk about how their collective thoughts on fear, friendship and misogyny shaped the writing of the new thriller novel State of Terror.
Secretary Clinton, how did you first get to know Louise?
Hillary Rodham Clinton: It's really a wonderful story. In many ways, it's the origin story for our book. We were fortunate enough to meet after my best friend, Betsy Johnson Ebeling, did an interview during my presidential campaign in which she was asked what we did together.
We've been friends since sixth grade, and one of the things we love to do is read books and talk about them. We used to go to the library as little girls. And when the reporter said, 'Well, so what are you reading now?'
It's really a wonderful story. In many ways, it's the origin story for our book. - Hillary Rodham Clinton
Betsy said we were reading the latest book in the Inspector Gamache mystery series. It was just serendipitous that that was the author she chose. We both loved reading Louise Penny.
Louise's publisher saw the interview and reached out, and I'll let Louise take it from there.
Louise Penny: Well, I was going to go to Chicago for the launch of the next book. My publicist said, 'Do you want to meet Betsy Ebeling, who happens to be Hillary Rodham Clinton's best friend? And guess what Louise? Hillary reads your books!'
When I regained consciousness, I said, 'Yes, please. I think that would be nice.' Immediately, I just felt so drawn to Betsy. Then, at the end of my book tour, my husband Michael died. He had been suffering from dementia. Hillary wrote the most beautiful letter of condolence to a woman she never met, about a man she'd never met.
It was in the last days of this brutal election campaign, and it was an act of pure kindness, of compassion, of one woman to another of understanding what grief is and reaching out.
And it was so selfless that it was something I'd never forgotten. Finally, we did get to meet and I felt that kinship with Hillary, right away.
WATCH | Hillary Rodham Clinton and Louise Penny get illustrated:
Secretary Clinton, not all first dates go quite as well as your date with Louise! But you have really become fast friends. It's a different thing being friends and then working with your friend. How was your working relationship?
Hillary Rodham Clinton: That's what I was most worried about. We became friends in early 2017. We vacationed together. We spent a lot of time with each other. Betsy lost her battle with breast cancer in July of 2019. We were both very, very grief stricken about that. We both spoke at the memorial service.
We had this wonderful friendship. When our respective agents approached us about working together on a novel, I was apprehensive. I love Louise as a friend, but I really admire her as a writer. And, writing successful fiction is something I never tried, and I didn't want to get into a project that would test or undermine our friendship or frankly not work. We had to spend a lot of time talking it through and sharing our apprehension together.
We had this wonderful friendship. When our respective agents approached us about working together on a novel, I was apprehensive. - Hillary Rodham Clinton
Louise Penny: I didn't see it as a gift at the time. I thought it was a big, fat pain in the You-Know-What! But our publishers also didn't know whether we could do it. They insisted before a contract was signed that we write an outline and a synopsis, which for me is like, 'Oh, come on, I don't want to do that.'
But as it turns out, it was a brilliant thing because it really forced us to think about whether we can do it and what the plot is going to be.
Hillary Rodham Clinton: We both took a deep breath and said, 'OK, well, let's see if we can actually produce this outline that our publishers want.' And obviously, there was a lot to be worked out. We were dreaming about maybe writing at a spa: We could spa in the morning, write an hour to 'go spa' some more. And then, of course, the pandemic put a stop to all of that!
Louise Penny: We spent a few weeks just going back and forth. That was actually my first indication that we would be able to work together. We were each throwing out ideas and we were each able to say to the other, 'I don't think that's going to work.' The other listened, heard it and wasn't hurt, but built on it. We could build on each other's ideas so that it got to the stage where I can't parse who did what anymore.
How did the two of you come to find that voice — that very specific, strong, powerful voice that Ellen Adams has — that worked for both of you?
Hillary Rodham Clinton: We spent a lot of time thinking about and talking about who we wanted to put at the centre of this book. It was an ongoing conversation, but so much of the actual drafting — taking the ideas and wrestling to the ground with them — was Louise just forging ahead and then me trying to catch up and offer my insights and observations.
But it was a seamless process. We fell in love with the characters. The character of Ellen Adams was inspired by a dear, dear friend of mine who also died in 2019. She had been a member of Congress and had worked in the State Department with me, a woman named Ellen Tauscher.
We could build on each other's ideas so that it got to the stage where I can't parse who did what anymore. - Louise Penny
Both Louise and I were not just inspired by these real-life people that we knew and loved in my case, but that we wanted to do right by them. They weren't the characters, but we wanted to show how much they meant to us by, in effect, creating characters that people would also fall in love with.
Louise Penny: This really was one of those beautiful examples of a perfect collaboration where we each brought equal elements to it. I would write something and send the pages to Hillary, who would print out the pages, write on them longhand and then send them back! Eventually, we had 500 pages.
And it was important for us to break the mould to have really strong, smart women characters. But these are women characters who are believable, who aren't fearless — they have their fears, they have their doubts — but they move forward anyway.
One of the things I really appreciate about this book is that the women are the leaders, they're the protagonists. It doesn't often happen in thrillers. People underestimate Ellen Adams — and she's able to twist that and use it to her advantage. Maybe you two are going to be changing the thriller genre. What do you think?
Hillary Rodham Clinton: I hope that we're going to be broadening the genre. I've read a lot of political thrillers with women characters, and they're often very these tough, expert markswomen, snipers and bomb makers who have action in the books, but they remain subsidiary characters.
What's exciting about this thriller, which is filled with things blowing up and has a pretty high body count, is it's two women of a certain age who are at the centre of it. They are trying to understand what's happening and prevent it from happening. So I would hope that people would find in this book the ingredients for going off and centring women in other kinds of thrillers.
Louise Penny: And it is exactly the sort of experience Hillary on the world stage and the experience that most women have had more privately — of being dismissed for no other reason than the fact that we have a womb. And it that demands then that we use our wits — and sometimes use it to our advantage.
Hillary Rodham Clinton: Right! Exactly.
When the story begins, Secretary Adams comes into this new administration after the former president burned a lot of bridges and left many relationships in need of repair and rebuilding. The fictional former president is named Eric Dunn. Louise, why did you want to bring in this character?
Louise Penny: This is meant to be a cautionary tale. While it is a fiction that we wanted to build on, it is a reality that the whole world has seen. It was important for us to talk about the dangers of having an inept head of state, of any state — one who is easily manipulated and has such hubris that he doesn't see it. Someone who believes he is in charge, when in fact he's not, who's easily taken advantage of, and who people use in order to get their own agendas through.
This is meant to be a cautionary tale, and while it is fiction we wanted to build on, it is a reality that the whole world has seen. - Louise Penny
It was important we have that reflected in this book. There is a real trust deficit that Ellen is up against when these terrible things start happening internationally. She is in rooms with other foreign ministers who are looking at her with disdain because of this lack of trust.
One of the things that was so important to reflect in the book is that here is a character who truly believes in service. She is there, not for ego, not to further her own career. She's a woman of a certain age. She's been successful in her business career. She's there to serve, and so she will put her future aside in order to do what is necessary for her country.
WATCH | Hillary Rodham Clinton and Louise Penny on CBC's The National:
It seems the system's really set up to be unfair to women. How much, Secretary Clinton, did you wish there was more time in the day to keep up appearances?
Hillary Rodham Clinton: The amount of time most women in the public eye have to spend on reaching some level of "presentability" is so skewed. I calculated, after my presidential campaign, that if you added up the hour a day that I spent getting ready, it was about 25 days! And none of my male counterparts had to do anything like that. And that's part of what we wanted to convey — the realistic implications of the still very prevalent double standard.
The amount of time most women in the public eye have to spend on reaching some level of "presentability" is so skewed. - Hillary Rodham Clinton
Louise Penny: It's so often happened with you, Hillary. You'd come into the chamber and you have something very important to say — and all the commentators are talking about would be Hillary's hair or her outfit!
Louise, in your novels, you write about fear and evil. We've talked often about the light and the dark aspects of the stories you tell. But this time, the dangers are global and all encompassing. Where is safe harbour to be found in the world of State of Terror?
Louise Penny: It's in friendship. It's in the company of people you trust.
Hillary Rodham Clinton: And the other part of that is we do show relationships evolving toward greater trust — and what it takes, for example, for Ellen and President Williams to actually get to trust each other when they started off diametrically on the opposite sides of that big trust divide.
So it really does come back down to relationships, friendships, to caring — and centring that keeps us all going, no matter what else is happening.
Louise Penny: It's that sense that you're not alone ... how powerful is that?
Hillary Rodham Clinton and Louise Penny's comments have been edited for length and clarity.