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The AIH Transcript For August 24, 2021

[hosts]Helen Mann, Chris Howden[/hosts]

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: Serving notice. A Toronto restaurateur says she and her staff are being harassed by protesters, because she's pro-vaccine passport -- and since they won't step back, she wants the city's government to step up.

CH: First rites. For the first time, a Black woman will be entombed in the Pantheon in France -- and Josephine Baker's son tells us the late, legendary performer would have appreciated the honour.

HM: Grabbing a slow bite. A Cambridge biologist explains what's happening in a first-of-its kind video, in which an extremely un-agile predator hunts a young bird: a giant tortoise.

CH: Beat poet. A fellow drummer remembers the late Charlie Watts -- saying he wasn't just the beat of the Rolling Stones, he was the heartbeat as well.

HM: For the love of all that's hole-y. A London, Ontario man who has kept a Toronto Maple Leafs-branded donut in his freezer for a decade says he is finally ready to part with the not-so-lucky charm.

CH: And… needles to say. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration finally approves a COVID vaccine -- but before people can get it in their arms, they'll have to figure out how to get its weird new name out of their mouths.

HM: “As It Happens”, the Tuesday edition. Radio that's not sure who came up with that name -- but someone else should have called the shots.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Jen Agg, Tortoise Eating Bird, Charlie Watts Obit

Jen Agg

Guest: Jen Agg

CH: If you passed by Jen Agg's Toronto bar Rhum Corner on Saturday night, you would have seen a line-up outside. Which might have seemed like a good thing -- if you couldn't hear them. In a video shared by the prominent restaurateur, diners can be seen sitting outdoors at tables on the street. And beside them, people are standing on the sidewalk. Some are holding signs, and you can hear them chanting "no vaccine passports", loudly -- over and over again. Ms. Agg tweeted a video of the group and said that, for weeks, her businesses have been targeted by anti-vaccine protesters on Saturday nights. And she wants the government to step up and do something about it. We reached Jen Agg in Toronto.

HM: Jen Agg, can you describe what the scene has been like at your bar, Rhum Corner?

JEN AGG: Chaotic, annoying, loud, headache-inducing, cringey, very embarrassing for these people. Yeah, [chuckle] those are the words that come to mind.

HM: What did the people say to you and your staff?

JA: Just to clarify, I haven't said one word to them, and I have not engaged with them, but I have had to listen to them harass my staff and yell at me, scream in my face that we're Nazis. I'm the queen bigot. You know, it's good to be queen, but none that way. And all sorts of other horrible things that you don't really want to hear people screaming at you for hours on end.

HM: How many people are we talking about?

JA: So it's been as high, and it's pretty consistently around 30, 35 people. There was one sort of chiller day where it was more like 15 people. But yeah, it's... it's enough people that it's disturbing, annoying. It's also dangerous. Like never mind the fact that this is sort of violent verbal assaults that are not pleasant for us or our diners to have to deal with. I'm sure you've seen the video of the woman sitting outside of Rhum Corner who manages to not spill her pina colada while she's getting screamed at.

HM: Yeah, I have seen that, but maybe the listeners haven't. Can you tell us what happens there?

JA: I mean, she's just sort of minding her own business, having a pina colada. And one of the protesters, I'm loath to even call them that because what they're protesting doesn't make any sense to me, comes up to her and just gets in her face. And she pushes the phone away, which is a reasonable response when somebody is yelling in your face with their mask off. And then she says something like, I'm going to spit in your face, you dirty white girl. It's very strange, very aggressive and really upsetting that people who are just trying to come out in support our restaurants that have been through a lot in the past 17 months are being treated like this.

HM: Why are they targeting you and your place?

JA: I mean, I know why. They think that I am asking for vaccine certification. That was the original thing, which we are not doing because we're not even doing indoor dining at the moment. I am pro-vaccine passport, and they have now pivoted to that. Like, it's always moving goal posts with these people. And I think that, also, I'm being targeted because I have a high profile in Toronto restaurants, and they know that, and they want to bring attention to their ridiculous cause. But yeah, I think it's about they don't think that we should have vaccine passports that have, by the way, been totally normalized in most American cities and in some Canadian provinces now. I believe in Quebec and B.C., this is happening. I mean, it's going to have to happen here. Ford is going to have to do something. [chuckling] Like, you can't just leave businesses that you claim you care about to fend for themselves and enact protections and laws that the government should be enacting. It's not fair. It doesn't make any sense. It's not reasonable to put people who are working on the front line and make them the COVID police.

HM: Mayor Tory says he has shared his concerns about what's happening to you with the chief of police. Are you satisfied with that response?

JA: I mean, I think it's a step. I think we'll see what happens this Saturday. You know, I really want this to be over. I don't want it to be ground zero for an argument that is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant my attention.

HM: What do you want the police to do if this isn't actually against the law?

JA: Well, I actually would argue that it is disruptive to the peace, and I'm not sure how it's not against the law, to be honest? It is getting in people's faces, verbally harassing when there's a split-based pandemic going on. Like, that doesn't feel like a peaceful process to me.

HM: How is your staff coping with all of this?

JA: They are superstars. [laughing] I'm just in awe of how chill and cool they're being. Like, we've had many conversations about it. And I'm there... you know, I'm there every Saturday night making sure that they know [chuckling] that I'm there because that's the whole point. I think in some ways, me being there enrages these people more. But I would rather, you know, be a go down with the ship kind of captain. I'm not going to leave my staff there to fend for themselves. And they've just been amazing about it. They've been so supportive. They know that this isn't my fault and that this just is a crappy thing that we have to deal with.

HM: If the province isn't able to or isn't willing to enact some kind of mandate, is there anything that restaurateur's can do as a group, as an association?

JA: I mean, I really... I really don't know the answer to that. [laughing] I wish I did. I feel completely at a loss here, and I feel a little bit hung out to dry by our provincial government. And I think it's something they need to address. They know this is happening. There's no possibility that they don't know this is happening. Everybody in the city knows this is happening. And they need to address it.

HM: Do you think that... that things are moving in that direction? You know, we see the Toronto Film Festival, the Blue Jays, other sports organizations all requiring a proof of vaccination or, at the very least, a negative test. Do you think that the province is going to have to move in that direction?

JA: I think they're going to have to. I don't think they're going to have a choice. I think the only thing that we can do at this point is limit the available fun things to do to people who have... who have made the responsible decision to get vaccinated. I understand some people cannot get vaccinated for health reasons. I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to people who are choosing not to. You know, yeah, you can go ahead and choose. You want to talk about freedom of choice. It's my freedom of choice to not let you into my restaurant that you've never even been to in the first place.

HM: Do you have any concerns that in being so public about all of this, you might even attract more of these protesters?

JA: I would like to know what choice I had. I sat by and watched this for four weeks and said nothing publicly. I didn't feel I had a choice. I thought a lot about it on Saturday night about what to do. And I think the city needs to understand what's happening here. And I didn't know how to get that support without talking about it publicly. So, yeah, I wouldn't say that I'm scared of the situation. I just felt I was in between a rock and a hard place. Like, I just want this to be over. I'm just trying to run some nice restaurants, serve some nice food to nice people. This is crazy that we're being put through this after what we've been through.

HM: It's been so hard to see so many long-standing establishments in this city close over the duration of the pandemic. I'm glad to hear that. You know, despite the fact you're still struggling that you've survived all this. Thank you for talking to us.

JA: Oh, it's my pleasure.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

JA: Bye.

CH: That was Toronto restaurant and bar owner Jen Agg. And we've posted more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[music: indie rock]

Biden On Trips

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Canadian troops are ready to stay in Kabul past the end of August if that's what it takes to get people out. But today, U.S. President Joe Biden signalled he is sticking to the original plan. The U.S. agreed to withdraw troops from Afghanistan by August 31st at the latest. And the Taliban have refused to budge on that date. But with thousands of desperate Afghans clamouring at the gates of the airport -- and just seven days to go before the withdrawal -- there have been calls to extend that deadline to make sure no one is left behind. Meanwhile, though, today, the Taliban said they would no longer allow Afghan nationals to travel to the airport in Kabul. Here's President Biden at a press conference today.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE BIDEN: We are currently on a pace to finish by August the 31st. The sooner we can finish, the better. Each day of operations brings added risk to our troops. But the completion by August 31st depends upon the Taliban continuing to cooperate and allow access to the airport for those who we're transport... we've transported out and no disruption to our operations. In addition, I've asked the Pentagon and the State Department for contingency plans to adjust the timetable should that become necessary. I'm determined to ensure that we complete our mission -- this mission. I'm also mindful of the increasing risks that I've been... I've been briefed on. And the need to factor those... those risks in. There are real and significant challenges that we also have to take into consideration. The longer we stay, starting with the acute and growing risk of an attack by a terrorist group known as ISIS-K, an ISIS affiliate in Afghanistan, which is the sworn enemy of the Taliban as well. Every day we're on the ground is another day we know that ISIS-K seeking to target the airport, attack both U.S. and allied forces and innocent civilians. Additionally, thus far, the Taliban have been taking steps to work with us so we can get our people out. But it's a tenuous situation.

CH: That was U.S. President Joe Biden speaking to reporters today.

[music: ambient]

Tortoise Eating Bird

Guest: Justin Gerlach

CH: If I ask you to picture a fearsome predator, you'll think of something sleek and cunning -- a lightning-quick hunter with razor-sharp teeth snatching up its prey and disappearing into the night. You will not think of a plodding, scaly, giant tortoise stalking a small bird and then chomping on its head. But that's what researchers have caught on video in the Seychelles. And in a paper published yesterday in the journal "Current Biology," they say it's the "first documentation of deliberate hunting in any tortoise species." Biologist Justin Gerlach is a co-author. And we reached him in Cambridge, England.

HM: Justin Gerlach, take us back to that moment when your colleague sent you this video, and you watched it for the first time. What went through your mind?

JUSTIN GERLACH: Well, Anna had told me that she'd seen this tortoise hunting, and I thought, of course, she hadn't seen a tortoise hunting. We all know tortoises don't hunt, but it sounded interesting. And then when she sent me the video, I'm watching it and thinking, yeah, clearly there's something odd going on here. This tortoise is moving very deliberately. It's quite unusual, but I don't know what it's doing. And then it gets up to the tern and starts biting at it. And it's just amazing. There's absolutely no question that this is hunting. It's acting deliberately. It's trying to kill this tern. And amazingly, at the end of it, it does kill the tern, and then afterwards, eats it. So it was a mixture of amazement and horror.

HM: The video cuts off after the tortoise bites the bird's head. So we don't see what happens other than the bird kind of falling over. What happened after the tortoise ate the bird? Do you know?

JG: That was the point that Anna stopped recording. But she said that the tortoise then took a few moments to get off the log to retrieve the bird that had dropped. And then it ate it. But it must have eaten it whole. There's no way of tearing it apart. So I suspect really we're quite fortunate that she wasn't recording because it must have been pretty disgusting.

HM: Now, why did this tern chick not hop away or fly off? Was it just too young?

JG: Yes, so it's a young chick. It's flightless. It's fallen out of its nest. Because it's a tree nesting species, it sees the ground as a dangerous environment. And so it's very keen to stay off the ground. So it's staying on the log. And that's the thing that enables the tortoise to get it. Because eventually, the tern is backed up to the end of the log and hesitates. And that's just enough for the tortoise to grab it.

HM: Yeah, because it's... the tortoise is still relatively slow-moving. It... it takes a few stabs at biting it before it actually succeeds.

JG: Yeah, that's right. Had the tern popped off the log and run for it, it would easily have got away.

HM: Why is what we're seeing here so significant?

JG: It's significant in a number of ways. And there've been a few reports of tortoises eating meat, but it's always been something dead that they've found. So no one has ever documented hunting by a tortoise. And I think that really changes the way we look at these guys. And for most people, tortoises are going to be fairly dull animals. They don't do a lot, just herbivores. Whereas now, you can see on the video this is an animal doing something with intent. It's much more intelligent than most people would think.

HM: What do you see in the tortoise behaviour that tells you that it is deliberately hunting?

JG: It's the way it's moving, and that's the thing that attracted Anna's attention to it in the first place. Instead of just wandering about casually, it's moving with purpose. It's moving without any hesitation straight at this chick. It's clearly intending to do something to it. And then it's also risking injury in attacking the tern because the tern's got a very sharp, pointy beak.

HM: Is this a totally new behaviour? I mean, you've alluded to there being reports that tortoises might indeed occasionally eat meat, but is it uncommon?

JG: It seems to be uncommon. There are a scattering of reports of tortoises eating a bit of some dead animal. But actually deliberately killing something else, this is the first time it's been recorded. Now, Anna has seen this a number of occasions on the island. This is the only time it's been captured on video. So it does seem to be something that is occurring on Fregate. One of the things we don't know at the moment is, is this a totally new behaviour that's developed, or is it... are we actually seeing the redevelopment of a behaviour that used to exist long ago, back in times when there were plenty of places with both three nesting terns and giant tortoises? Around 200 years ago, most of the Seychelles Islands were cleared and turned into plantations. And the terns were killed, and most of the tortoises were killed as well. And it's only through the fantastic conservation work that's been done on places like Fregate that populations of tortoises and populations of terns have increased. And so now there is this opportunity for tortoises either to develop a totally new behaviour or to redevelop a behaviour that hasn't existed for the past 200 or 300 years.

HM: What is the benefit to the tortoise in doing this?

JG: Eating meat is something that pretty much any herbivore will do, given half a chance. It's a concentrated source of protein. It's highly nutritious, but we don't really know if there's more to it than that at the moment. So are these tortoises on Fregate simply getting a protein tasty snack, or is there actually some significance in their diet? We don't know. It's one of the many research questions that this has opened up.

HM: Right. So there's the potential thing where there's been a lack of opportunity for them to... to have a supply of meat. On the one hand, there's also the fact that they're notoriously slow. Could that... could that be a factor on why we assume they're herbivores?

JG: Yes, the opportunistic eating something dead is straightforward enough. But for a tortoise to actually hunt and kill something, it's got to be a very slow prey item. There's very few things where this would be possible, maybe snails, but other than that, it's going to be poor, defenceless chicks that have fallen out of the nest.

HM: Justin Gerlach, thank you very much for talking to us.

JG: It's a pleasure.

HM: OK, bye-bye.

CH: Justin Gerlach is the director of studies at Peterhouse College at the University of Cambridge. He's also an affiliated researcher at the university's Museum of Zoology. We reached him in Cambridge, England. And we've posted that video to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: surf rock]

Charlie Watts Obit

Guest: Mike Edison

CH: When you think of Charlie Watts -- the drummer for the Rolling Stones -- that may not be the kind of thing you hear in your mind. But a tribute to jazz great Charlie Parker was entirely on-brand for his namesake. Mr. Watts was obviously one of the greatest drummers in rock. But he was also a huge jazz aficionado who toured with his own quintet. And his affinity for bebop was just one of many ways in which he differed from his rock' n roll contemporaries. Charlie Watts died this morning. He was 80 years old. And while Mick Jagger and Keith Richards will always be the most famous Rolling Stones, today's tributes make one thing abundantly clear: there would be no Rolling Stones at all without Charlie Watts. Mike Edison is the author of "Sympathy For The Drummer: Why Charlie Watts Matters." He's also a drummer himself and a lifelong fan. We reached him in New York City.

HM: Mike, why do people need convincing that Charlie Watts matters?

MIKE EDISON: [chuckle] I don't know that Rolling Stones fans need convincing, but I think you have been Charlie Watts, a guy who is... plays a deceptively simple style that's actually incredibly nuanced, that swings very powerfully. And I think people forget that the Rolling Stones were and are not just the greatest rock and roll band in the world, but maybe the greatest hard rock band in the world, and the greatest country, and a damn good disco band and could go toe to toe with the punk rockers when it came down to it. And the guy that wins isn't the guy with the biggest toys, necessarily.

HM: Right. Now, there are so many stories that make it clear that Charlie Watts was not your typical rock n roller. Which one stands out most for you?

ME: Well, you know, he was always in his heart of hearts, a jazz drummer. And atypical, of course, is that he wasn't really there for the party. He was there for the music. That he was married young and successfully. And, you know, definitely stayed out of the limelight. I think the thing about Charlie is he was an accidental rock star. He was slumming it to play with the Rolling Stones. He wanted to be a jazz drummer. And, of course, I guess you find it when you're least looking for it. Here he was behind the greatest rock and roll machine on the planet. But what his real dream was to play with Louis Armstrong. You know, he wanted to be more like Max Roach and play with Charlie Parker.

HM: Um-hmm. Now, Charlie Watts tried over the years to give credit where he felt credit was due, and that includes in an interview back in 1966. I'd like to play you a clip of that. Let's... let's listen to Charlie.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLIE WATTS: We're selling our music back to American boys who probably never even heard of the people who we copied off of it from. This was in the beginning, but I suppose influences. Yes, we're selling our influences back -- our way of doing it. Maybe it's more acceptable the way we do it. But, you know, I think the Beatles, you know, and when you get a version of "Long, Tall Sally" by the Beatles, sold half a million records and you've got Little Richard, which is ten times better, selling 300 copies, although it was a hit record. I know, but I mean, that sort of thing, then it's just remodelling a thing and making it acceptable. And it's only acceptable because The Beatles have done it. And the same thing with us.

HM: What do you think when you hear Charlie speaking about his influences that way more than 50 years ago?

ME: Well, he's always been very true to his roots. I mean, that's one of the great losses today, is we lost one of the great true connection back to the very beginning of blues and rhythm and blues. That's what the Rolling Stones are. It's what Charlie Watts are. These are guys that they started out as a cover band. I mean, honestly, that's what they were doing when they were playing Muddy Waters and Harpo and these things. But they also got to learn at the feet of Howlin' Wolf. And they learned by... by being on tour with Bo Diddley and hanging out with James Brown. I mean, they're a real connection to the to... to the source. The amazing thing is that interview was in 1966. Over the years, they evolved. You know, he became a much different drummer from the time they were playing "Not Fade Away" to the time they got to "Jumpin' Jack Flash", which was maybe the first hard rock song. And, you know, until the time they got to "Miss You" and "Respectable". You know, he became greater than the sum of the parts. And his favourite drummer, the guy, says he owes it all to a guy named Fred Below who played with Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters and was sort of the house drummer at Chess Records in Chicago. But that's not the guy that was playing on "Street Fighting Man" He evolved. He grew. That's very important with Charlie Watts' story.

HM: Well, and besides playing for the Stones, he... he would slip away and play jazz over the years as well.

ME: Yeah, even playing for the Rolling Stones couldn't stop him [chuckling] from fulfilling his dream of being a jazz drummer. I always laugh and say he's the only Rolling Stone that can make solo records that were beyond criticism. [chuckling] Because when Keith or Ronnie go off and make a solo record, they make rock and roll records. And they already have the best rock and roll band. I know… I know when Keith did it, he was kind of on the outs with Mick. But Charlie makes these lovely jazz records, something you can't do within the confines of the Rolling Stones. When I listen to those other records, I kind of like everybody, kind of wonder why I'm not listening to the Rolling Stones?

HM: Now… now, I understand that after your book came out, Charlie Watts called you to talk about it. Can you tell me about that conversation?

ME: Yeah. Oh, man, that was like... like... like just so sweet and so classy. And this was during the lockdown, kind of like... like the dark time, a weird time. And just out of the blue, I get this call from Charlie Watts, and actually, he left me a message on my voicemail because it was quite early in New York, and he was calling from his farm in England. He says, hi, you don't know me. My name is Charlie Watts, and I'm looking for Mike to thank him for writing this very lovely book, and for having Charlie Parker on his voicemail, on the answering machine. He actually said answering machine. And, you know, it's just crazy because I've had this Charlie Parker. It's like it's literally like six seconds of music that I put on when I got my first flip phone 20 years ago. And it's what happened to be on the radio that moment, and I put it on, and I hadn't thought about it since. But no one else has ever recognized it. You know, I mean, jazz going to Charlie Watts, you know, recognized it. So, like, oh, my God. My wife's like, I think Charlie Watts just called me, and call him back back. So I called him back and said, you know, you don't know me. My name's Mike. And is this Charlie Watts? And he was, you know, it's like having your hand shaken by someone wearing a velvet glove. I mean, he's just such a gentleman, and very classy, and he was very sweet. He invited me to come out and see the Rolling Stones when they got back out on the road. And as we know, he wasn't going to make this tour.

HM: Yeah.

ME: Right? Because, you know, he, you know, he got sick or he had a procedure is what we were told. But I didn't get any vibe that he was in any imminent danger. So today's news was just a real blow. And also really begs the question, which is at the very heart of "Sympathy For The Drummer: Why Charlie Watts Matters" is... is there a Rolling Stones without Charlie Watts? Mick and Keith always said, no Charlie, no Stones. I guess we're going to find out now. You know, I mean, they've been part of all of our lives for so long. They are the soundtrack to our lives. And not just as a drummer trying to figure out what makes these songs swing so... so wonderfully. But as anybody who loves rock and roll music, I mean, they were... they were everything. And you got to wonder, I mean, can they even create anything new?

HM: Mike, thank you very much for your insights and your memories. We appreciate you talking with us.

ME: Thank you.

CH: Mike Edison is the author of "Sympathy For The Drummer: Why Charlie Watts Matters." We reached him in New York City. Charlie Watts died today. He was 80 years old.

[music: world music]

Part 2: Josephine Baker Pantheon, Frozen Donut Guy

Josephine Baker Pantheon

Guest: Brian Baker

CH: The late Josephine Baker was many things: an iconic dancer and singer, a Second World War freedom fighter, a civil rights activist. And now, after years of petitions and campaigning, she will become the first Black woman to be symbolically entombed in France's Pantheon. The monument, which also serves as a burial site, is reserved for the country's most revered national figures. Brian Baker is one of Josephine Baker's children. We reached him in Sitges, Spain.

HM: Mr. Baker, what does it mean for you to see your mother honoured in this way?

BRIAN BAKER: It means an example for our youth in France, but all over the world. An example of idealism and of someone who has tried all her life to get a universal brotherhood. So for our family, it's a big emotion. It's a lot of promise. And I think that is what my mother would have felt also.

HM: Your mother died in 1975, and was buried in Monaco. What is going to happen this time around? Tell me what the ceremony and the funeral will be like?

BB: The ceremony will be symbolic. That means that my mother will stay in our family funeral place with her sister, with her husband and with one of our brothers who died 20 years ago. So there is no question of moving my mother's body. And... but, in the Pantheon, you can have a ceremony symbolic with, let's say, a big... like a big tomb... you say?

HM: Right, like a marker or a tomb, yes.

BB: Yes. And but symbolic. So it will be official. It will be symbolic. And it will be, because I have spoken with the French president, Mr. Macron, about that. We thought that it will be as my mother was. So that means that before and after this ceremony, it will be a very popular musical with joy and open to everybody.

HM: Josephine Baker has remained such an iconic figure for generations of people. But there are going to be those who... who don't know her, don't know her history. She was born and raised in the United States, but left that country for France in the 1930s. Tell us a bit about why she left?

BB: First, she left St. Louis, Missouri because it was... it was she was raised in a very poor family and she had no future in St. Louis, especially as a dancer. She wanted to be musical and to dance and to sing. And, of course, as soon as she could, she left St. Louis and, finally, arrived to New York. And in New York, she was a dancer, but a very simple dancer. And finally, she... she danced at the Cotton Club, and at the Plantation Club. But there's a destiny and the fate was on her when there was a producers who decided to... to send to France, to Paris, a Black American show. And she was a part of that show. She... she has been designed because as a just dancer, she had a lot of energy. And the people of Paris and the producers of Paris loved her. And the proposal to... to stay and be a big star in France, in Paris.

HM: She had faced a lot of racism in the United States. What was the situation like for her in France? Where... was it more welcoming to her and other people of colour?

BB: Yes, of course. She... she... she always said that when she arrived in France, she could see the difference of treatment as a coloured woman, and even for the other dancers and musician, they were very well-treated in hotels, restaurants and everywhere in the street. And she was... she used to say, in the USA, we still don't have the right to... to go in some hotels or restaurants or even some other places. And, later on, she has been in trouble with the FBI and CIA, who were watching and thinking that she was an activist, Black activist and communist troublemaker. And at the moment, she couldn't come back in the USA because she was forbidden for some time. But after a while, when John Kennedy became president, she... she could at last have her papers and passport to go back in USA

HM: You know, apart from being a performer in France, your mother also played a significant role in the resistance movement against Nazi rule. Can you tell us briefly what she did?

BB: When Germany invaded France, my mother decided to go with general de Gaulle with the Resistance. And she proposed the French army and the French Secret Service to... to do something. And finally, they decided to use her as an agent, especially in Arab countries where she could be received by big kings and the big sultans, etc., that she knew already as an artist to help the Ally army. And she was with the French Resistance in in the castle because she was hiding, resistent, and communists, and Jews -- Jew people -- from the Nazi.

HM: How do you think your mother would feel now about this symbolic entombment in the Pantheon?

BB: First... first of all, she would have been very surprised. Then, she would have probably protest, saying there is surely more and best people than me... better people than me who deserve to be there. President Macron, who asked me this question, what would think your mother? And would she accept to be in the Pantheon? I say, well, after surprise and after maybe protesting, more or less, she would have been very honoured.

HM: Well, Mr. Baker, you must be so proud yourself of her life. It's a pleasure for me to speak with you about someone who's such, as I say, an iconic figure, too, to so many people. Thank you.

BB: You're welcome. And I say to you, goodbye.

CH: Brian Baker is the son of the late, legendary Josephine Baker. We reached him in Sitges, Spain.

[music: folk]

FOA: COVID Horse Art

CH: David Marriott's horse is a made of the kind of stuff you tend to recycle. But rather than get put out to pasture -- figuratively speaking -- it's about to find a fittingly stable home. Because to Australians, it's a piece of pandemic history. In April, we spoke with Mr. Marriott -- an art director who was stuck in a hotel for 14 days of mandatory self-isolation. And you can confine an artist -- but you cannot confine his mind. So, using paper bags and some items in his room, he crafted a horse, which he named "Russell". Along with a cowboy outfit for himself. And now, his quarantine pastime has hit the big time: Russell is headed to the National Museum of Australia. From our archives, here's David Marriott speaking with Carol in April.

DM: And when I first arrived, they give you a brown paper bag full of snacks and whatnot. And I thought, well, that's a really cool bag -- it's like a pattern-making material. And then along came lunch in the same bag and then dinner in the same bag. And the next day, breakfast, lunch, dinner. And all these bags, I'm keeping them. And I didn't know what I was going to do with them. And then on the second or third day, we had poke bowls like, you know, a brown paper bowl thing and finished that. And as soon as I finish that, I put it straight in my head, as a hat [laughter] underneath is a brim. So I kind of brim out one of my bags. Then, you know, one thing led to another, I made my waistcoat and started cutting the tassels out. And then I got into it and made my chaps. And then I got the whole outfit and made a gun and a holster and a belt and everything. And I'm walking around like cowboy and thinking, I'm a cowboy -- now I've got to get me a horse. [Chuckles]

CO: You finished the outfit -- there is a nice fringe on your paper jacket, a paper fringe, and a paper brim on your head. And you've got a paper gun and paper chaps and all made up. But making a horse, I mean, you can put all this on yourself -- how did you manage to get yourself, Russell the horse?

DM: Well, I was thinking about that. You know, that was my next project was to do the horse. And they got big skinny legs and a big body, and that would be really impossible to do just out of paper. So I was thinking maybe I'll ask for some cardboard boxes and I'm looking around, looking around. And then I've seen in the cupboard there is an ironing board. So I got the ironing board out and I went oh, that's like a horse, you know, looks like a horse almost. And then there was a desk lamp on my desk. So I just unscrew the legs off of that and I tied the thing on. And that was like the skeleton of a horse. And I just cut out to two bits of paper, the profile on each side of the horsey head.

CO: And so you'd called your horse Russell.

DM: Yeah, yeah. Because it's all based on this brown paper joke, which is that -- it's an old dad joke from England or from wherever, it's like "Have you heard about the brown paper cowboy? No, what happened? Oh they got caught. They got caught red handed for rustling." [Laughter] So that was really hard trying to explain that to a German (TV) [laughter]. And we got Russell and it's like a paper thing. And then Russell was when you steal a horse and also you can call a man Russell, so that, you know, she got very confused.

CO: How is the hotel responded to your cowboy gear and your horse made out of paper bag?

DM: Well, they've been enjoying the ride as well as much as everyone else because they're in hospitality, they are in the hotel and they've got a hotel full of guests that they can't see, they can't talk to, they can't interact with, and they're all freaking out. Their morale is low. So they've seen all this nonsense on social media and then on the TV and all the rest of it. And they've really enjoyed it and they're having a laugh of it. I wrote an email to the guy at reception saying, you know, what's your policy on having pets in the rooms? Because my horse is getting a bit frisky, I wonder if you could send up a horse walker or someone take him out [laughter]. And he sent back this beautiful reply with all sorts of puns. Yeah, it's really funny.

CO: Let me read part of it, "It behoves me to ask that all individuals, equine or otherwise, please remain in the rooms for the duration of your quarantine. I trust your noble steed is stable." [Laughter]

DM: [Laughter] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's golden. And that made me laugh. That's why I have all of this -- it's to make me laugh because I'm stuck here on my own.

CO: Now you're leaving tomorrow at midnight. Can you rustle Russell out with you and take him home?

DM: Yeah, well, I think I just thought of maybe leaving him here, but no -- I'm going to take him. He's going to be in a show. I was thinking about leaving him here at the hotel to inspire people so they get their paper bags and some scissors and a little roll of sellotape. But they probably can't. So the guys where I work they're having an art show, so they want to in that show. So I'm going to have to rustle Russell back. I might have to make a paper suitcase for it. [Laughs]

CO: And that you had one idea that you might put Russell's head in the bed as a Godfather tribute.

DM: Yes, that's right. That was one of my ideas. Well, you know what? That'll happen in the dismantling stage, you know. But he's so fragile and I've taken him outside on the balcony and bits of him fall off. So he's not very robust. And all the outfits I've made, I've been running around doing action scenes and chase scenes and everything. And you bend over too far [makes tearing sound] so he's very fragile.

CO: You said at the beginning that you would give us your best American cowboy accent.

DM: [Speaks with an American cowboy accent] Well, gosh darn, man. If you want it, you can have it. What do you want me to say? [Laughs] BBC interviewed me and I was in character the whole time, Channel Ten, and they couldn't believe it. THey didn't know what to do me because I was just a dumb cowboy. And, you know, when you're in your character, you can say anything to these TV personalities, you know, say, gosh darn it, boy, what are you talking about? You don't know. This one guy wanted me to make a dinosaur and I said a dinosaur?! Sorry, dragon. I'm not going to make no dragon, I'm in it west -- what kind of dragons do they have in the west? You're crazy, boy. [Laughs]

CO: [Laughs] All right. Well, I'm glad you could talk to us. Take care of yourself.

DM: No problem. You have a lovely day now.

CH: From our archives, that was David Marriot speaking with Carol in April of this year.

[music: bluegrass swing]

Frozen Donut Guy

Guest: Mike D'Alessandro

CH: To a true fan, it was practically perfect in every way: the shape, the colours, the brilliantly rendered logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs. A beautiful memento that no Leafs aficionado could easily part with. Or eat. So, instead of putting it in his mouth, Mike D'Alessandro put it in the freezer. Where it has remained for a full decade. But very soon, it will no longer be frozen in time. It may not stay frozen at all. We reached Mike D'Alessandro in London, Ontario.

HM: Mike, what exactly did you put in your freezer 10 years ago,

MIKE D’ALESSANDRO: An old girlfriend bought me a nice doughnut with the Maple Leaf emblem on it. And I decided not to eat it, and I put it in the freezer.

HM: What makes it a Toronto Maple Leaf doughnut?

MD: [chuckling] Well, it's got the Toronto Maple Leaf logo on it with blue and white sprinkles on it. It’s basically a doughnut with the Toronto Maple Leaf uniform on it. It was actually a pretty nice doughnut, so I didn't really want to eat it. And I said, wow, that's too nice to eat. So I just stuck it in the freezer. And 10 years later, it's still there.

HM: Is it a filled doughnut?

MD: Yes, it's a jam-filled doughnut, but I don't know what kind of jam it is. People were arguing with me on... on the line there. Some thought it was strawberry or some were saying it was blueberry. Like, I don't know.

HM: What compelled you to freeze this doughnut instead of eating it?

MD: Well, it's like I said, it was just too nice to eat. And back then, I was like a huge Maple Leaf fan. And I figured I’d just save it till they won the cup. But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

[chuckle]

HM: Yeah, [chuckling] it's quite a long wait so far. Are you a big doughnut guy?

MD: No, I’m not a big doughnut guy. I try to watch my figure, so I'll have a doughnut once in a while.

HM: You say this was bought for you by a girlfriend. Is that part of the sentiment?

MD: No! It was an old girlfriend from a long time ago. So I think... I'm pretty sure it was a girlfriend that bought it for me and came home with it. And then, you know, just looked at it and said, that's a real pretty doughnut!

HM: Do you open up the freezer and look at it sometimes.

MD: [laughing] Actually, I haven't looked at it for years, actually, for like two years. I was just emptying out the freezer the other day and it was sitting there in the corner. I was like, oh, yeah, that's still here!

HM: Does it look like it looked when you put it in the freezer?

MD: [chuckling] It lost a couple sprinkles around the edges, but I'm sure that can be cosmetically repaired with some other icing.

HM: I understand that there have been times you've been tempted to take it out and cut it up. Can you tell me about that?

MD: Oh, yeah, definitely. That’s the year when the Leafs blew that series with Boston, they made it to game seven. I think they're up by four goals in the third period. And they usually in the third period playing the Bruins, the Leafs need to be up by these 10 goals. And, you know, you're safe. But they blew it and it was pretty devastating. And I came close to cutting the doughnut in half that day and I just couldn't do it, couldn't bring myself to cut the doughnut in half. Because it was already, I think, six or seven years old by that time.

HM: So why... what stopped you from... from destroying it?

MD: I said, well, I kept it for six years. I might as well just keep it for longer now. I think it's probably the oldest doughnut I've ever heard of. I haven't seen a doughnut that's 10 years old.

HM: You ever been lying in bed at night being, you know, a little peckish and think, gee, I got that doughnut in the freezer?

MD: [laughing] It’s a talking point, eh, whenever I have friends over and stuff like that. And they're all laughing right now at it because it's such a funny thing like you're actually on the radio with your doughnut because I know I bring the doughnut and they are like, you still got that doughnut? And I’m like, yeah! I still got the doughnut. And I still bring it out for a while and then I put it back in the freezer.

HM: So you finally decided, though, to part with the doughnut. Why now?

MD: Yeah, well, I don't know. There’s all the bad news going on right now. I figured make some people put a doughnut for sale. And 10 years old, nobody has a 10-year-old doughnut. And, of course, I got everyone says, how can you prove it's 10 years old? I said, well, I got some old pictures. I'm sure there’s a way to test it. [both laugh] I got, like, pictures of my face way back with the doughnut.

HM: Does it mean you've given up all hope of the Leafs ever winning?

MD: Oh, I think... I think they're going to win one day, but I don’t know. They should be able to do it, this team. I think as long as they get a little bit older and more mature they should be able to win it. At least get out of round one, how’s that? It's time to go right to the Stanley Cup, at least get out of the first round.

HM: Do you think you'll ever regret giving up the doughnut if they do win? I mean, the doughnut’s gone. I can't even celebrate with it.

MD: You know what? That's the thing. I bet if I sell the doughnut now, they're going to win the cup next year. And somebody else is going to have the doughnut.

HM: How much do you think the doughnut is worth?

MD: How much is it worth?

HM: Um-hmm.

MD: I don’t know. I think it's only worth is by the person that puts it. Like, whatever sentimental value they have to it. I don't know. I kept it for ten years. I don't think there is another doughnut like it's kind. So it's 500 bucks.

HM: Five hundred bucks. So what's the response been like?

MD: Well, some of the response has been pretty negative. You know, you got some people [both chuckle]... people, like, screaming and yelling at me like I'm forcing people to pay 500 dollars for it. And I’m like, well, just don't buy it. And then I got other people just laughing and saying, oh, my God, that's great. So it's been really mixed reviews.

HM: Have you had any lower offers? Some... you know, a few bucks here or there?

MD: Oh, I had kinds of offers. I've had offers for me to eat it. I have some really bad offers. Yeah, there's all kinds of offers.

HM: Would you eat it if somebody gave you 500 bucks to eat it?

MD: I don't know if I'd eat it. Maybe... No, I wouldn’t eat it for 500 bucks.

HM: But do you think it's safe to eat?

MD: I don't know if it’s safe to eat. Maybe cook it first to decontaminate it. I don't know. But it’s been frozen for a long time. To me, it looks like normal. Like, it looks like you could eat it. Like, it's really weird how well-preserved it is.

HM: Have you sniffed it to see if it has, like, that freezer smell?

MD: Oh no, it doesn't have that freezer smell at all. Like, it’s just... I was just, like, we had it while I was taking pictures of it last night. It looks just like a normal doughnut, a little bit shrunk from its original size and a little bit smaller, but not really. I bet if I could put it on a rack next to the rest of the doughnuts at Tim Hortons, you would never know.

HM: And how is it wrapped up? Have you kept it.

MD: It is just like a Tim Hortons Timbit box

HM: in a Timbit box. You know, I have to wonder, this doughnut is perfectly preserved when you look at it. It’s like an intact Toronto Maple Leafs doughnut.

MD: Yeah.

HM: It hasn't changed over the last 10 years. Is there some way this symbolizes your relationship with the Leafs?

MD: Oh, maybe. It kind of does. I mean, it’s a love-hate relationship. Like, I don't know why I keep a doughnut in the freezer. And I don't know why I like the Leafs losing all the time. So, yeah.

HM: But it's constant.

MD: chuckling. Yeah. Next year I'll be going for them just as strong. It's just another heartbreak to watch them go out first round again. So I'm sure I'll be buying tickets again.

HM: Well good luck selling your doughnut, and even more luck with the Leafs. [both chuckle] I'm with you. I'm hoping that I'll live to see them win again someday.

MD: Thanks a lot.

HM: OK, Mike. Take care. Bye.

MD: Bye.

CH: Mike D'Alessandro is selling his frozen, 10-year-old Toronto Maple Leafs donut. We reached him in London.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Pfizer Vaccine Name

CH: Yesterday -- after an interminable wait -- the United States Food and Drug Administration finally announced its approval of a COVID vaccine. The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, specifically. And it's hoped that FDA approval will encourage the vaccine-hesitant to finally get the shot. Which is being marketed by a new name -- so all they have to do is head to a clinic and ask for the Commm -- uh, the Comnaranty vaccine. Excuse me: the Caminarty, uh, vaccine. [clears throat] With vaccination rates in the U.S. -- wait, wait. C-O-M-I-R-N-A-T-Y. Co-meer-NAY-tee? What kind of a -- okay, hold on. According to a spokesperson for the branding company, quote, "the name is coined from COVID-19 immunity, and then embeds the mRNA in the middle, which is the platform technology, and as a whole the name is meant to evoke the word community." Unquote. Oh, I see. "co-MEER-nah-tee." Like "community" plus "COVID immunity" plus mRNA. Oh, OK. That's...not good. The vaccine does one thing very well, but the name does at least three things badly. And if people can't pronounce or understand it, will they roll up their sleeves and get it? Well, fittingly: it's hard to say.

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