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The AIH Transcript for June 16, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

CH: Tonight:

CH: Not a good sign. An Edmonton mosque is in shock after a swastika is discovered spray painted on a wall — and the mosque president tells us he has no place in Canada.

CO: Handshake agreement, disagreement on everything else. Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin meet and greet. But the tete a tete doesn't appear to have resulted in any changes of heart.

CH: Scorching-earth policy. Doctors in Arizona are warning residents to tread carefully — because a heat wave has turned the pavement into a searing surface that can inflict serious burns

CO: Ahead by 13 centuries. Researchers in New Zealand find evidence that the Antarctic waters were explored by Indigenous groups long before bearded dudes from Europe showed up on the scene.

CH: And... a box on all your houses. In the U.S., Girl Scout cookies sales are way down, but for one 11-year-old, sales — and the cookies themselves — are way up thanks to the drones she's using to deliver them.

CH: “As It Happens”, the Wednesday edition. Radio that lets the chocolate chips fall where they may.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, Putin Biden Meeting, Maori Antarctica Study

Mumilaaq Qaqqaq

Guest: Mumilaaq Qaqqaq

CH: Mumilaaq Qaqqaq is leaving parliament with something to think about. The NDP MP for Nunavut has decided not to run in the next election. Last night she delivered her farewell speech to the House of Commons. And as Ms. Qaqqaq told her followers on Twitter, she "did not hold back."

SOUNDCLIP

MUMILAAQ QAQQAQ: Every time I walk onto the House of Commons grounds, speak in these chambers, I'm reminded every step of the way I don't belong here. I have never felt safe or protected in my position, especially within the House of Commons, often having pep talks with myself in the elevator or taking a moment in the bathroom stall to maintain my composure. When I walk through these doors, not only am I reminded of the clear colonial house on fire, I am willingly walking into. I am already in survival mode.

CH: That was outgoing NDP MP Mumilaaq Qaqqaq speaking in the House of Commons last night. We reached Ms. Qaqqaq in Ottawa.

CO: Mumilaaq, the speech you gave last night is so powerful, and we will post links because everyone should hear it. What kind of reaction are you getting from people?

MQ: I think that people are upset that it's... it's been forced. This conversation has been forced. I think that people really want to see my name back on the ballot. So, it's been nothing but an immense amount of support and... and love that I've been seeing anyways. And lots of messages from people that I know, just congratulating or saying that it's... it's what's needed, and that's what's going to be missed, that amount and level of transparency and want for accountability.

CO: You said in part of the speech, you mentioned that you are reminded every time you walk into the House of Commons, you're reminded that you don't belong there. What is the experience you have in that building and that institution?

MQ: So, I was walking to the House one time and to Question Period, and I saw the security guy in the booth, and he gave me a nod. So I gave him a nod. And I was like, great. Like, I made eye contact with him. Great, I, like... I'm good. He knows who I am, [chuckle] and I don't have to worry. So, and I usually... I always have my headphones in because I'm trying to pump myself up with Snotty Nose Rez Kids and get myself mentally prepared [CO chuckles] to speak in the House of Commons. And I got the nod from the security in the booth, and I passed by the next set of doors. And I'm listening to music, but I can hear and feel heavy steps and vibration as if somebody jogging after me. And I knew it was happening, and that there was the second security guard. He didn't nod at me, even though he looked at me. And so I thought, OK, that's probably what it is. So slowly take out my headphones, slowly turn, make sure that I'm not moving too fast. I'm not going to make a scene. I'm not going... and he says, like, do you have I.D.? You need to be, like, basically screened to be in here. And I was like, oh my goodness. And he eventually, like, realized and, I think, felt a bit silly. But how intimidating is that? Like, to have these big heavy footsteps behind me? And so then I'm thinking, huh? So my position helps. But it doesn't matter if I don't have the title, then... then what? Then what do I do? And I just am always going in to work with that mindset.

CO: In your speech, you want people to understand the issues you were trying to bring to the House of Commons, that they've also been ignored. You talk about the lack of affordability in housing, the access to clean water, the suicide rate among Inuit people. Were you ever able to get anything that you wanted on the agenda?

MQ: I got to speak from a place of truth. In reality, I got to say exactly what needed to be said and how it needed to. And for me, that's a… a huge accomplishment, even though it shouldn't be. But in the world of politics, I think that's something that needs to be discussed more. I would not feel comfortable in any other space except with the New Democrat Party. I have never felt the need to... to tone down or to not say something, and I have never been put in a position where I've been made to muzzle myself, and in any way, shape or form. And I think if anything, I've been able to show that impossible is possible, that there's a chance for hope where it's purposely put out. And I think that regardless of what kind of happens next, there has at least been shown that we don't need to hide those truths. We don't need to be thankful for less than the bare minimum. And that we can find pride in our identity and who we are again. And that's we're... we're moving towards healing.

CO: You don't let anyone off the hook in this speech, right? The people who you say who are opposed to your ideas, opposed to what you do, what you're trying to... to tell the House of Commons, that they are less a problem for you than those who say, yes, we understand exactly. We see exactly what you're saying, but we're not going to do anything about it. You've said that that's... that's... that's the worst of it, isn't it?

MQ: To be told all the time as an Indigenous person, as someone that looks like me, that they know there's a problem, they know there needs to be more done is incredibly frustrating. And what I've come to realize more and more is that it's... it's about power and that there's a major imbalance. And what that is, is.. is a gaslight. It's a power trip to be able to have an immense amount of oppression on not a small group of people by any means. I'm talking about tens of thousands of Inuit. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of Indigenous people who the system doesn't doesn't work for. And I have point blank said to ministers, walk in our shoes, attempt it, try it, try to put yourself in the position you force us into. And they refuse to. They know they can't. They know they couldn't handle it. So why would you expect any other human being to live in conditions you... you say you wouldn't even imagine? Like, that is so wrong and shameful and gut-wrenching for people... the people that need help. And it's... I don't understand how anyone can see pride in that? And as an Indigenous person, as an Inuk, as a woman here in Canada, I don't see any pride in being a Canadian. I don't see any pride in how Canada allows a federal institution to treat Indigenous peoples and continue to... to leave them in... in the states that we see.

CO: The thing is, you do belong in the House of Commons. Your voice is essential. And without it, it's... it will be sadly missing. Why not stay here and be that voice?

MQ: Because I have too much of my life to live. I think that people have this notion that we stop learning, we stop growing at a certain time. And I know I'm only 27, but I feel like I'm running out of time. And there's still so much for me to do and learn and experience. And it's not in this space. [chuckle] Why should I be miserable? And I... I've been more and more transparent about this. I'm really lonely. This is a really isolating job. I have found myself in a space where it's really even hard to have, like, day-to-day conversations. Like, I'm just trying to talk with friends about what colours, I have some beta fish, like I'm just trying to have normal conversation. And I can't find that. I can't... I feel like such an alien in this position. And to be put on such a high pedestal, like I don't want to be viewed as Mumilaaq, the courageous MP. I want to be Mumilaaq, the person that wants and has human needs, which are genuine connection and interaction. And you can't find that [chuckle] very much in politics. And I'm not… as Mumilaaq, I'm not happy anymore. And I haven't been for a long time. And why should I... like, this is the first time in my life I'm going to be doing something completely selfish. I have been so selfless for the last 27 years. And it might look great from the outside. And... and that's great. I want to inspire people. But Mumilaaq [chuckling] wants to get out of politics and go back to real, genuine human connection. And... and I... I don't find I find that here. And that's not worth my life. It's not worth, you know, putting myself through that day-to-day as... as good of a job as I do.

CO: Mumilaaq, I know wherever you go, whatever you do, it's going to be... well, we'll be hearing from you and about you. I... I know you'll do great things. And I... I really appreciate your efforts and speaking with you today.

MQ: Thank you.

CH: Mumilaaq Qaqqaq is the NDP MP for Nunavut. We reached her in Ottawa. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[music: bright piano]

Putin Biden Meeting

Guest: Julia Ioffe

CH: They walked in. They shook hands. And that's about as warm as the meeting between Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin got today. In the three-hour meeting, the U.S. President says he pressed Mr. Putin on a series of cyberattacks that have been blamed on Russia. He also raised the issue of human rights and the detention of opposition leader Alexei Navalny. But Mr. Putin, at least publicly, did not give an inch — and appeared to enjoy extended questioning from U.S. journalists. Julia Ioffe was watching. She is a founding partner of the new media company Puck. We reached her in San Francisco.

CO: Julia, the fact that this summit even happened, did Vladimir Putin score a win automatically?

JULIA IOFFE: I think he did. But I do have to say that it is important for the American president to meet with the Russian president. And not only frame these things as wins and losses. Like the Russian president could have scored a win with this. But that doesn't mean that the U.S. shouldn't have met with the Russian side. People in Russia have noted that this meeting was scheduled in part because Putin stacked all these troops on the border with Ukraine, and seemed like he was preparing for another invasion, another war and that this meeting was scheduled in part to grant him the attention he craved and get him to back down a little bit.

CO: Mr. Biden said that he did what he needed to do. So, what is that exactly?

JI: You know, we still haven't gotten all the insider accounts of, you know, what exactly was said during the meeting. But we do know that Biden, you know, he and his team telegraphed pretty clearly ahead of this summit that their intention was to tell Vladimir Putin to his face that the cyberattacks must stop and that the U.S. holds the Russian government responsible for them, whether or not they are... these hackers are direct employees of the Russian government. And that there will be consequences. And Biden seems to have said that if he got this message across. The question is whether it will be effective? It seems that Biden also brought up the issue of human rights, the imprisonment of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny and, you know, the very low-hanging fruit of talking about strategic stability, which is, you know, not overloading both sides with nukes and risking nuclear war, which is, you know, I think something they can pretty easily agree on.

CO: But Mr. Putin gave a press conference in which he said that none of these things is true, that he's not responsible for cyber attacks, human rights abuses? Pffft! The United States, he points to January 6th. He points to Black Lives Matter. He says that nothing that's happened in... in... in Russia compares to what goes on in the United States. He denied it all. So what did he really accomplish then by talking to... talking tough to Mr. Putin?

JI: Well, I don't think that Vladimir Putin would have ever gone public and said, you know what? Joe Biden convinced me. Russia is a huge human rights violator. And you're right. You know, I fess up. You know, these criminal gangs in Russia were actually working at the behest of the Russian government. There is no world in which Putin would have come out and said that to Biden behind closed doors and especially not to the public. I mean, this was a totally expected response. Whataboutism, as... as it's called among Russia watchers, this habit of flipping the... flipping the script and saying, like, well, you accuse me of human rights violations, but look at yourself. You know, it's had this name for decades and decades. The Russians have been doing this for at least a century. So it's nothing unexpected. And in fact, you know, I think we were well prepared for it. As for the, you know, the cybercriminals, he's going to continue using that line, in part because he has set up this situation where plausible deniability is an important part of how this operates. That these criminal gangs work in Russia, they don't attack Russian targets. We know that there is this kind of informal agreement. And therefore, the Russian government doesn't go after them and probably helps point to which targets they should attack abroad. You know Russia is an authoritarian police state, and I am absolutely sure they know where all these hackers sit, who they are, what they do, how to find them. And I'm sure they have all kinds of compromising materials on them. So regardless of what Putin says, it's, you know, pretty clear what the situation is.

CO: And do you think that they did agree that there were certain cyberattacks that would be off-limits, that would include infrastructure that affects civilians, people with energy, with water, with anything of that nature? Do you think that they... they successfully agreed to consider those off-limits?

JI: I'm not sure that they successfully agreed. We know that President Biden brought this up, but I don't know that Putin agreed to it. I think there was not a... maybe not a threat made, but, you know, a promise made that America has similar capabilities to go after similar Russian targets. And certainly, Russia wouldn't want that. But I doubt Putin would have agreed to it in the meeting. But I guess we'll just have to watch and see what happens in the coming months and years. I know they agreed to very basic things like returning ambassadors to Washington and Moscow, respectively. And talking about strategic stability. But again, I think neither side was going into this expecting any kind of solutions to be hammered out or any kind of agreements to be made.

CO: Did you find that in the press conference that... that Joe Biden gave, that he seemed... well, he did seem quite testy. And what do you make of that? There was a question from Kaitlin Collins, who said that, well, you say that was constructive and positive, but he denied all these things. And Joe Biden responded, well, if you don't understand that, you're in the wrong business. What do you make of... of how Joe Biden handled that press conference?

JI: I think that was, you know, a slip-up on his part. Frankly, he shouldn't have reacted to a reporter doing her job in that way. I think he... it seems like he was upset that she was attributing a confidence to him that he had never stated. But I do have --

CO: A confidence in Mr. Putin, you mean?

JI: That American actions would change Putin's behaviour. She asked him, are you... you said you were confident about... that you could change Putin's behaviour. And he said, no, I never said that. But, you know, he shouldn't have done that. And I think it's a good thing he apologized because he... you know, it's not good when a person with such power reacts to the free press with anger.

CO: We will leave it there. Julia, I thank you for speaking with us.

JI: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Julia Ioffe is a founding partner of, and Washington correspondent with, the new media company Puck. We reached her in San Francisco.

[music: indie rock]

Maori Antarctica Study

Guest: Priscilla Wehi

CH: When you picture the first Antarctic explorers, you might very well picture a bunch of European guys with giant beards in giant sweaters, standing in front of some multi-masted wooden schooner in the early 20th century. But a new study by researchers in New Zealand is challenging that narrative. It shows how Maori and Polynesian voyagers may have reached and navigated the frozen continent somewhat earlier — as long ago as the seventh century. Priscilla Wehi is the lead researcher on the study. We reached her in Auckland, New Zealand.

CO: Priscilla, who were these voyageurs in the waters around Antarctica 300 years ago?

PRICILLA WEHI: Yeah, isn't that amazing? Thirteen hundred years of Antarctic connection. So the first voyage that we know of was the Polynesian voyage called Hui Te Rangiora. So, as we understand it, he and his crew sailed down probably from the Cook Islands down to Antarctica and came back with some wonderful stories of walls of ice, and the kelp, and some of the sea mammals. But the other interesting thing, although we think he was perhaps the first Polynesian voyager, we also don't know what the stories of other Indigenous peoples from South America are. And so, although from our side of the Pacific, he was one of the very early voyages, we do wonder whether there are other voyages from South America who went down to Antarctica on that side of the ice?

CO: Just describe how far is the voyage? How would they get there? How long would it take?

PW: OK, so when we talk about Maori canoes, what we actually mean are sailing vessels that have a double hull. So they're much more stable than a single canoe. So these are very large sailing vessels with probably a couple of sails. And if you think about the Pacific, the Polynesians at that time had already sailed thousands of kilometres backwards and forwards across the Pacific. So these are very, very good seafarers, people who really know and understand the oceans. So for Hui Te Rangiora, he went south for a couple of thousand, a few thousand kilometres. So it's really significant voyaging.

CO: And... and so would they be going to explore or were they going looking for resources, for fish, for food?

PW: So we know in some parts of the Pacific, people left their homelands because there were... there was increasing population, and they were looking for new places to live. But we also have stories, so specifically from New Zealand, where Tamarereti, another one of the early voyagers. And around the 13th century, he went south to look for the origins of the Aurora — so different motivations, but incredible capability in actually doing that.

CO: Have you found examples of... any... any evidence of how they described what they thought of the Antarctic?

PW: Yeah, It's... there are stories. And actually, what we think is that our research is just the beginning. We know that there are other tribal groups who hold other narratives about these early explorers. So we're really looking forward actually to hearing from those tribal groups about all of the narratives that they hold. So we've got these sort of relatively limited understandings at the moment. So from Hui Te Rangiora, there are these reports of... actually, when I talk about walls of ice, what... what came back was that it was like arrowroot. So if you scrape some of the roots of tubers, a substance like arrowroot comes up very white. And they said that the walls were very like that. So walls of ice is how we interpret that. They talked about the big waves. They talked about creatures from the deep. So we think those are probably seals and other subantarctic creatures that you don't find much in Polynesia. And we also know, too, from which is like Tamarereti that it was very rough, very difficult conditions because, in fact, his waka — has canoe — was wrecked, and most of his crew died.

CO: And so when you hear that... because the assumptions are, if you just even do a quick Google on Antarctic, it's... the record is that it was discovered in the early 19th century by legendary explorers from Europe and the U.S. And that's how it's understood to have been first seen by humans. Does that rankle you, given what you know?

PW: I think it's been part of a long history which has marginalized Indigenous and other peoples. So the history of Antarctica, as we understand it now, is a very imperialist narrative that centres European discovery. And, you know, there were many wonderful European explorers in the 19th century that were furthering the mission of colonization and exploration during that period. That was a very 19th-century endeavour. So not to belittle all of that amazing expedition. But to say that actually there are many people around the world with long histories of navigation, of voyage, of connection that have been ignored. And I think we really want to think more deeply about history. Then we actually need to do that in a much more inclusive way.

CO: Do you know if the Maori or the Polynesians did they... did they actually access the continent itself of Antarctica?

PW: It's difficult to know. It's not clear to me. Someone has done some work. And she, in her work, she thinks that Hui Te Rangiora and others probably went down to the Bellina Islands, which is just quite close to the Ross Sea. But it's very hard to definitively say that these people set foot. But again, I'm hoping that some of the tribal narratives that we know are out there may clarify some of that. What we do know, though, is that the oral traditions that we have been investigating tie up really well with archaeological evidence from the subantarctic islands. So we can say absolutely that Maori were living in the subantarctic islands or visiting the subantarctic islands. But for Antarctica itself, that's a bit more difficult to know at this point.

CO: It's so interesting. Priscilla, I really appreciate hearing all of this. Thank you.

PW: Oh, it's a pleasure.

CH: That was Priscilla Wehi. She led research on a study of the Maori Indigenous group's connection to Antarctica that’s published in the Journal of the Royal Society of New Zealand. We reached her in Auckland, New Zealand.

[music: folk]

Part 2: Edmonton Mosque Vandalism, Arizona Hot Pavement Burns

Edmonton Mosque Vandalism

Guest: Humayun Ahmed

CH: Spray-painted in red across a wall of the Baitul Hadi Mosque is a symbol of hate — a swastika. The vandalism on the Edmonton mosque was discovered on Tuesday morning — just nine days after a Muslim family was killed in London, Ontario. And unfortunately, it's not an isolated incident in Edmonton: over the past few months, there have been at least six hate-motivated attacks on Muslim women in the city. Humayun Ahmed is the president of the Baitul Hadi Mosque. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Humayun, how did you learn about this vandalism?

HUMAYUN AHMED: The vandalism at our mosque, we learnt about it yesterday morning. And it's at a place on the roof which is visible from the back side of our property. When we learned about this, we informed the police. And they came the same day, a couple of hours later, and they saw and took their... started their investigation. And I believe the investigation is still in progress.

CO: This is an image of a swastika in red on your... on your mosque. And what did you... what did you think of that when you saw it? What... what... what... what reaction did you have?

HA: Well, the first reaction was... was sadness that a symbol of hate has been put on a property which is a place of worship. If it had happened to any other mosque or a church, we would have felt bad about that as well. And the Muslim jihad in Canada is... is a peace-loving community. And our motto is love for all, hatred for none. For us to experience this, for our community members, not only those who visit this mosque, but also our neighbours who are not Muslims, it was troubling for all of us.

CO: There are other swastikas in the area as well. Can you tell us about that?

HA: Yeah, the police, when they arrived here and looked at this, they mentioned that they have seen similar symbols in the neighbourhood in the recent past. Although they were not sure the timeline of those and this appearing. As far as our property is concerned, we noticed it yesterday, early morning. And that's when we got in touch with the police.

CO: This comes less than two weeks after a Muslim family in London, Ontario, was killed. And I know on Friday there was a Muslim woman in Edmonton wearing a hijab. She was violently attacked in your city. How are you and your community feeling right now? Do you feel safe in Edmonton?

HA: So I've been in Edmonton for over 10 years now. And as a citizen, I found this to be a very nice place. And it is accepting in terms of several faiths. And also from different cultures. But recently, we have seen some events in Edmonton as well as in Calgary, and not forgetting about the events in Ontario. I think this makes us feel that there is some action needed, and not only from the outreach from the religious organizations but also from the authorities to curb this kind of extremism.

CO: The vandalism on your mosque is being investigated by the hate crimes unit in Edmonton. At the same time, we've seen in London, Ontario, the man who is... who is accused of murdering that family is being charged with terrorism. Do you think that this is appropriate, that these kinds of charges and investigations are... are the right ones, that the police are responding to this as they should?

HA: I think that I cannot speak about the policy or how police categorizes any event. I can only speak about the perspective of someone who has experienced it as... as the victim. From that aspect, I think there are two parts to any kind of incident when it happens. One is the reason for which it happened and what can be done after it. So as to the reason, every individual who perpetrates anything like that, it's... it's... it's different every time. But what can be done is what is in our control as a victim. And I think what we should do at this time is to come together and have a united response as community members and as citizens of Canada that such kind of hatred or extremism should not have any place in our society in Canada. And we should... we should open a dialogue with those who have any kind of misconceptions or questions about various religions. And that dialogue should result in a better understanding.

CO: We've seen in these recent days responses from politicians such as Conservative MP for Edmonton, Tim Uppal, who posted on Facebook that he apologized for the... his former government, the Harper government. He said that... he said, quote, "it alienated Muslim-Canadians and contributed to the growing problems of Islamophobia in Canada." At the same time, the premier of Alberta denied that some of those policies even existed. So do you think that the politicians... are you hearing what you want to hear from the politicians about Islamophobia in Canada?

HA: As… as an individual, I would like to mention that I do not actively take part or listen to statements which might be political in nature. But what I would like to mention here is that as a community and government together, we need to come up with a solution which constrains this kind of hatred. And we need to become stronger out of this and better understanding of each other.

CO: Humayun,, we will leave it there. I do hope they find who did this vandalism, this... this act of hate toward your mosque. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

HA: Thank you very much.

CH: Humayun Ahmed is the president of the Baitul Hadi Mosque. We reached him in Edmonton.

[music: folk]

Annamie Paul

CH: Annamie Paul says she's not going anywhere. Canada's Green Party Leader survived a vote last night by the party's national council that would have started the process to remove her as leader. Internal disagreements within the party have magnified — and Ms. Paul is at the centre of them. There's been infighting over the party's position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with Ms. Paul being accused of not expressing enough solidarity with Palestinians. It prompted Fredericton Green MP Jenica Atwin to cross the floor to the Liberals. Speaking to reporters today, a defiant Ms. Paul had tough words for the Liberals, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau... and for her own party's leadership.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNAMIE PAUL: When I became leader of the Green Party, I inherited the current set of Green councillors. Many of these councillors are deeply, deeply committed to this mandate of transformation and diversity. Sadly, though, not all are. A small group of councillors sought to force a vote of non-confidence in my leadership. They did so with no substantive consultation with the members they represent. They produce a list of allegations — allegations that were so racist, so sexist that they were immediately disavowed by both of our MPs as offensive and inflammatory and contrary to party ethics. And I thank our MPs for that. The plan of this small group of councillors, who are on their way out, did not succeed. Now, a quick word about the Liberal Party of Canada's role in this. The Liberal Party of Canada has demonstrated that it is hell-bent on winning their majority at almost any cost. To the prime minister, Justin Trudeau. I say to you today, you are no ally, and you are no feminist. How many times will we allow Justin Trudeau to get away with pushing strong, competent, capable women out of politics when they are seeking to serve? Today, I am here to say that I am one woman that he will not push out of politics. And he can believe it.

CH: Green Party Leader Annamie Paul today after a failed attempt this week by her party's national council to force a vote on her leadership.

[music: indie rock]

Arizona Hot Pavement Burns

Guest: Kevin Foster

CH: Right now, the weather in Arizona is too hot — officially. The National Weather Service has issued an "Excessive Heat Warning" for Central Arizona. It's so hot that doctors are warning people to watch where they go, what they touch, and where they step. There's a heat wave across most of the southwestern United States — with temperatures averaging a high of 46 degrees Celsius or 115 Fahrenheit. That's turning roads and pavements in some places in Arizona into giant hot plates. And people are burning themselves. Dr. Kevin Foster is the director of the Arizona Burn Centre. We reached him in Phoenix.

CO: Dr. Foster, how bad are these pavement burns that you're seeing?

KEVIN FOSTER: Yeah, so these pavement burns are pretty bad. In the summertime, in direct sunlight, the pavement gets to be 160 to 180 degrees Fahrenheit, which is just a little bit below boiling temperature. So it only takes just a very short exposure to get a really bad burn, a full-thickness burn. And we're seeing quite a few of these. And most of these patients end up getting admitted to the hospital. And most of them require surgery and skin grafting for their injuries. So it's a... it's a pretty significant thing right now.

CO: I understand some of the patients you had during the hot summer last... last year, some of them died?

KF: Yeah, the really terrible months for us are June, July and August. That's when it's the hottest and when we have the most direct sunlight. And during those three months, we had 104 patients who required admission and surgery. That excludes a whole bunch of people who we were able to treat as outpatients. But 104 people with really serious burns. And out of those 104 people, seven of them passed away. So that's a pretty high mortality rate.

CO: What parts of their bodies are they getting burned?

KF: Yeah, so they're... they're really the parts of the bodies that come in contact with the hot pavement when... when somebody goes down, when somebody falls down. And so we tend to see wounds of the back side, the buttocks, the back, the posterior thighs and oftentimes the palms and the hands and even the back of the head. So areas that you typically don't see with burn injuries that often. And they're... they're difficult to take care of and to excise and graft because they're all... they're all pressure areas. They’re areas where we sit or lay, and grafts just don't do well under those circumstances. So that's an additional challenge to these injuries.

CO: So are these older people, are these kids falling off their bikes, things like that?

KF: Yeah. You know, any... any mechanism that you can think of, we've probably seen at one point in time. But a common characteristic, one of the things that, you know, is kind of a high-risk factor is old age, multiple medical problems, multiple medications, people that get outside and dehydrated, people who are intoxicated, who are, you know, drinking alcohol or using other substances and become dehydrated very quickly and fall down. Those are pretty significant risk factors. But we don't see those in all patients. There are a lot of other things that happen, too.

CO: You're in the middle of already a heatwave in Arizona, right?

KF We are. It's been in the high to mid-one-teens, you know, 115, 116 all of this week. And it looks like it's going to continue on this week and through the weekend, which is even by Arizona standards, that's hot.

CO: Well, just for people in Canada, that's 46 centigrade — 115. So, yeah! That's hot! I mean, we used to always have this expression that it’s so hot outside you can fry an egg on the sidewalk. Well, that's literally what's going on there, right?

KF: Yeah, it's true. We were just laughing about that the other day about how somebody had leftovers and they wanted to warm up their pita bread, and they just set it out in the sun for a couple of minutes to get it warm. But yeah, you can literally fry an egg on sidewalk or on the hot pavement in the middle of a hot summer day in Arizona.

CO: This is something you now call pavement burn season. Is this... is this relatively new? Have you always seen these kinds of burns, or is it... is it getting that much hotter?

KF: Yeah, you know, we've always seen them. Summers are busy season, and this tends to be why because of the hot contact burns. But last year was an anomaly. I mean, we saw many more patients last year than we'd seen in any of the five years before that. And when we went back and looked at the mean ambient temperatures in the afternoon, the mean ambient temperature for June, July and August at 2:00 in the afternoon was two degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it had been in the previous five years. So last year was definitely warmer. And that definitely, we think, helped contribute to a much greater incidence of these types of injuries than we've seen before.

CO: What kinds of warnings do people get in... in Phoenix?

KF: Well, we tell people to stay inside during the hottest part of the day. So from 10:00 a.m. until 3:00 or 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon. If you do have to go out, make sure you're in the shade, make sure you're well-hydrated, make sure to wear protective clothing and sunblock. Do not go outside without protective clothing and shoes on and be careful when you touch things. You know, even door handles or glass or the upholstery in the car, all of those things can be hot enough to cause an almost instant burn. So you really have to... have to think about things in Arizona. We tell people to be careful with their hoses, too, you know, when you go out to water the plants or, you know, wash the car or something like that. You have to let the water run for a little bit because the water that's been sitting inside the hose is 170 or 180 degrees.

CO: Good heavens!

KF: So there are a lot of things you just really have to kind of think about.

CO: This is not likely to change in Arizona, right? These kinds of June, July, Augusts. So what might be changed? What kinds of mitigating things could be put into place that might reduce the danger of these burns?

KF: The biggest thing is staying inside. If you do have to go out, you know, protect yourself. We also recommend that people don't spend time alone. If you're going outside, especially if you're elderly or have multiple medical problems, make sure somebody is with you to help you if you... if you should happen to go down. Or at least somebody is aware of the fact that you're heading out. And if you are to come up missing or don't show up someplace, somebody can come out and look for you. But the really important thing is just to avoid it. And we also tell people, you know, for gosh sakes, if you're going to be celebrating, you know, stay inside.

CO: All right. Good warnings for everyone, but especially in Arizona. Dr. Foster, it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

KF: Yeah, I was very interested to talk to people from Canada because I'm sure this is something really unusual that you all [chuckling] don't see very often.

CO: Oh, this may be coming... coming to a country near you, near us. [both laughing]

KF: That’s true! Good point!

CO: OK, bye-bye.

KF: Thank you, ma'am. Bye-bye.

CH: Doctor Kevin Foster is the director of the Arizona Burn Centre. We reached him in Phoenix.

[music: vocalization]

FOA: Girl Scout Drone

CH: In a 1992 instructional video, an expert lays out the most important rule of selling Girl Scout cookies:

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: A, B, C. A, always. B, be closing. Always be closing. Always be closing.

CH: Whoops! That’s.. that’s the wrong clip. But actually, that philosophy of selling — always be closing — probably applies to the Girl Scouts. Problem over the last year has been that people's doors have always been closed. Ordinarily, the Girl Scouts of America — they're known as Girl Guides here, of course — sell around 200 million boxes of cookies in a year. This year, they've been left with a few boxes unsold — 15 million give or take. And if you're in the U.S., please take. One reason is that membership is down. But the pandemic has been the real issue — preventing door-to-door sales. Mind you, some Girl Scouts have still managed to move a lot of product. Like 11-year-old Gracie Walker of Christiansburg, Virginia. Her sales were considerably higher than usual this year: when Carol spoke her, she'd sold over 5000 boxes. And the boxes themselves were considerably higher than usual too — because of a creative pandemic delivery method. She told Carol about it in April.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Now, other girls are saying that it's really hard to sell cookies. It's the middle of a pandemic. So what's the key to your success?

GW: Probably just finding out new ways to sell. I have been putting pieces of paper on people's doors with QR codes to give them my link so they can buy online. And I make videos for family and friends.

CO: OK, now, but you also have a secret weapon, don't you? And it takes to the air. Can you tell us about that?

GW: That is our drone. And we partnershiped with Wing. And it is very cool. And we deliver only in Christiansburg, in a three-mile radius. So we are delivering in there. And the drone's about 10 pounds, and it can carry about three pounds.

CO: But I understand this is the first time the Girl Scout cookies have been delivered by drones, is that right?

GW: Yes, first council in the world.

CO: And so do you think that this is... that you're part of a bit of history here? Do you think this is going to be the way Girl Scout cookies get delivered in the future?

GW: Oh, yes, I definitely know I am a part of history, and it's very awesome.

CO: [laughing] Just... now, what advice would you give to our Girl Guides of Canada? Do you think they should start using drones up here?

GW: Well, I think it would be a cool idea for them to try, but I think they should try their own idea, too. Try what's best for their area, too.

CH: From our archives, some advice from Girl Scout Gracie Walker of Christiansburg, Virginia, talking to Carol in April.

[music: “Rubber Ducky” done on electric guitar with whistling]

Part 3: Oldest DJ Retires

Juneteenth National Independence Day

CH: There's a new official holiday in the U.S. Pending President Joe Biden's John Hancock, June 19th will officially become Juneteenth National Independence Day. It marks the day in 1865 that a U-S Army General named Gordon Grainger arrived in Galveston, Texas. Only then did enslaved African-Americans there learn that the Civil War was over and that they were free — more than two years after Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation. Yesterday, the Senate gave its unanimous approval to a bill to make Juneteenth a national day of celebration and commemoration — though the Wisconsin Republican who held-out last year when this came up still feels the price of a new federal holiday is too high. Noted. Sheila Jackson Lee — a Democratic Representative for Texas — might point to the costs of failing to give the day its due. Or the cost of failing to acknowledge what it has meant for the Black Americans who've been celebrating it for decades. Ms. Jackson Lee is one of the lawmakers behind the bill -- and she spoke about it today. As she did, she stood beside a photo of a man whose back told its own powerful story about the legacy of slavery.

SOUNDCLIP

SHEILA JACKSON LEE: These are the brutal backs upon which the whip went over and over and over again, not only men, women, children, possibly, as history recounts. But look where we are today. Look where we are in the midst of what people have described as racial divide. We have now come to a place where we acknowledge the 47 states that have done a celebratory, unified and multicultural celebration of Juneteenth. Let me tell you why just for a moment. Juneteenth is as significant to African-Americans as it will be to Americans. Because we, too, are Americans, and it means freedom. Juneteenth, June 19th, 1865, General Granger found himself on the shores of Galveston. I think it is important to read these words. These are the words of General Granger coming all the way from Washington, D.C. of general order number three. You know, we like legislation, but I will tell you, can you imagine all of the slaves who were not free? Two extra years! They gathered around. They knew something was happening. There was no telegram, or there was no cyber. There was no email or tweet. Here it is. The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with a proclamation from the executive order --

SPEAKER: The representative's time has expired.

REPRESENTATIVE: I yield the gentlelady from Texas another minute.

SPEAKER: Gentlelady is awarded another minute.

SJL: And thank you guys for another minute. I thank you for your kindness. The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with a proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This invokes an absolute equality of rights, rights of property between former masters and slaves. And the connection, therefore, existing between them becomes that of employer and hired labour. It is a day of freedom. Thank you. And I yield back.

CH: That was Texas Democrat Sheila Jackson Lee speaking in the U.S. House of Representatives today. This June 19th is expected to be the first official Juneteenth National Independence Day in the U.S.

[music: hip-hop beat]

FOA: Pentagon Papers 50th

CH: Fifty years after their partial publication, most Americans will have heard of the Pentagon Papers. And thanks to Steven Spielberg's "The Post," they're familiar with the bravery of the journalists who reported on them. But today, fewer people know the name of the former U.S. military analyst who leaked those top-secret documents about the Vietnam War. And that's fine with him. Daniel Ellsberg says he never wanted recognition for sending photocopies of the Department of Defense report to the press — even though doing so got him charged under the Espionage Act. The papers revealed that the Vietnam War was a disaster. A disaster that successive administrations knew about and lied about. And in 1973, Mr. Ellsberg spoke with then "As It Happens" host Barbara Frum about how it felt to be on trial for revealing that truth.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: What is this process doing to you?

DANIEL ELLSBERG: Doing to me? It's keeping me up late. I was up in the office till 2:00 last night. That's not exactly new for me. But, you know, every... every citizen is, in a sense, naked in front of the government in terms of combat. Each individual confronts it as a taxpayer or as a possible draftee or in many other ways as an individual confronting what looks like a very powerful, massive organization. And what is that? And my case just makes that a little clearer. It dramatizes it. So when you're in a position like mine, you're not really in a position that's so different from that of your fellow citizens. It's just more obvious.

BF: I think your lawyers have had a tremendous fight, have they not, in trying to get the government side to reveal information that contradicts their premise?

DE: Yes, it's hard. Again, they're in a very common situation to American citizens. They're trying to get government officials themselves, to tell the truth and to reveal lies or expose lies. I suspect, although this is my first trial, I suspect that that's not really so uncommon. What is uncommon is for the defendant to find out about it in the course of the trial. I think it does often come out sometime after a trial is over that evidence did exist and was known to the prosecution and was... was withheld. Very rare right during the trial, and especially during the prosecution case itself. Now, what was crucial to that happening was the existence of honest and conscientious individuals. In one case, in the… in two cases in the Defence Department and in the Central Intelligence Agency. And in both cases, they became aware through the newspapers, which shows the press serving its function.

BF: Dr. Ellsberg, do you think that the climate in America has changed? And that either by luck or maybe by planning on the part of your defence attorneys, you've somehow gotten to come to trial at a time when the results may be different?

DE: I think the effect on the trial, of course, is that it very greatly… it greatly focuses on the central issue of the trial, which is the issue of consecutive and presidential manipulation of the public and neglect of law and accountability. I think the real issue of the trial is, does the president have an unlimited right to lie to the American people? That's quite apart from the content of the horrible acts that he actually undertook at that time. I think people are even more sensitive to that now because of the very lack of explanation and the lack of any attempt to explain those actions and the timing of them immediately after an election, which was really a mandate for what seemed very happy promises that the war was over. All of those, I think, have made people realize that the issue of finding a way for the American people to know the truth about what their government is doing and is going to do is a very central issue for us, central to this country, central to the people who might be our victims, central to our allies as well as our adversaries. And incidentally, I think the action of the Canadian parliament in condemning the bombing was an extremely helpful initiative and admirable. And I don't have to say belated. I don't want to... to, you know, take away my thanks as an American. But I think it was belated. But by the same token, coming when it did, along with protests in other countries, I think it played a significant role in changing the president's action at a time when the American people were close to despair about their ability to affect their... their president's policies.

BF Dr. Ellsberg, can I ask you one last quick question? And with respect, do you ever worry that you'll become so self-righteous and become, you know, so noble in your own eyes that your own life will become distorted?

DE: That has… [chuckle] I'm used to using legal language now after sitting in the court for month after month, there's a presumption there that I think is incorrect or hasn't been shown. Certainly, I'm reminded by every…. daily of the existence, by letters, by columns and whatnot of people who disagree with what I did. And one can hardly sit in a courtroom under prosecution for 115 years, or it's now down to 105 since one count was thrown out, and forget the fact that one is being held accountable for one's actions. In other words, it'd be very hard for me to have the fantasy of going beyond the law and my actions as I sit in that courtroom. Other than that, as I look at the histories that are coming out about the war now because of its process of ending, at last, I find that I'm very glad to see the contents of the Pentagon Papers reflected in a lot of them. And in the tone of it. I find my own name reflected not at all. And that's fine with me. And I think it's understandable. Whether what I did was... was important or not, and which is not easy to answer. It certainly was a painful business. Putting out that information was... it was very painful information. And I think that humanly what's to be expected is that the country will try to forget much of what it knows about this war. The whole subject is so painful. I hope we do learn from it, but I don't really expect we'll be preoccupied with it very much. I think people will want to forget it, and I understand that entirely. I think they'll succeed with me, and that's fine with me.

BF: Dr. Ellsberg, thank you.

DE: OK, thank you.

CH: Daniel Ellsberg, speaking with former "As It Happens" host Barbara Frum in 1973 — a few months before all charges against him were dropped. Fifty years ago this week, the New York Times published the first excerpts from the leaked Pentagon Papers.

[music: ambient]

First Transgender Olympic Offical

CH: Like any Olympian, Haley Daniels has worked hard to get to the Games. But in her case, the work has extended well beyond training for her sport. It has also meant lobbying Olympic organizers to recognize her sport. For a century, men have competed in slalom canoe racing at the Olympics. But the Tokyo Games will be the first where women are able to do so. That's the culmination of a long struggle for Haley. But she says her own efforts are eclipsed by those of her dad, Kimberly — who will be joining her in Tokyo as the first transgender official in Olympic history. This morning, the pair told CBC Calgary they couldn't be prouder of each other.

SOUNDCLIP

HALEY DANIELS: I mean, I'm proud to go to the Olympics, but I am so proud of my dad because I think it's so much harder to go through what she's gone through.

DAVID GRAY: All right. I'm sure there's people listening right now who are confused. [HD chuckles] So, Haley, you always... you call Kimberly dad because Kimberly's your dad.

HD: Absolutely!

DG: Explain that decision and what went into it?

HD: So, I am the daughter of Kimberly Daniels. And she came out as transgender in September. And before the Olympics were delayed, we decided we were going to keep it under wraps because we didn't want there to be.... we didn't want the story to affect how I would compete. But the pandemic happened, and we said, you know what? Let's scream this off the rooftops together and control our narrative. And we had the most positive coming out. And I'm just... I'm really proud of you, Dad. I think that you are amazing, and you're helping so many other people live their authentic self. So, on to you.

KIMBERLY DANIELS: Well, and for a lot of people that I meet... and dad's male. And when I came out, I actually asked my kids, and my kids are so special to me, and have been extremely supportive. And I... and whenever we'd go out together, and if I get called dad, people look at me and go, he's a man! And I get clocked. Immediately, I feel uncomfortable. And... and so I shared that with them. And oh, my... my kids were so honest and explained that what I... what they were internalizing is I didn't want to be their dad. So for me, I had to internalize several things. But the first thing was I had to realize it was important for my kids to support me and me to support them. And to be proud to say I'm their dad. And the second was, I had to also own it. I'm transgender, and go, I'm proud to be a transgender woman, and my kids call me dad. And it's just I'll tell you. It's a whole lot easier. It's weird, [HD and DG chuckle], but it's true, and it works.

CH: Haley and Kimberly Daniels, speaking with the David Gray on "The Calgary Eyeopener" today.

[music: ambient]

FOA: Slain Slovak Journalist

CH: The reporting, and the murder, of a Slovak journalist brought down a prime minister and his government. And three years later, the case is still not over. Slovakia's supreme court has overturned the acquittal of a multimillionaire and his suspected accomplice — for ordering the 2018 murder of investigative journalist Jan Kuciak, and his fiance Martina Kusnirova. Mr. Kuciak had been reporting on corruption and fraud involving the Italian mafia, top politicians, and Slovak businessmen — including the man who will now stand trial, once again, for murder. Just after Jan Kuciak's death in February of 2018, his last article was published. The headline read: "Italian Mafia In Slovakia; Its Tentacles Reach As Far As Politics." Canadian journalist Tom Nicholson lived in Slovakia for 26 years, and collaborated with Mr. Kuciak on his final story. From our archives, here's Mr. Nicholson telling Carol what it was like to read it.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM NICHOLSON: It was, I guess, bittersweet you would call it because there was so fine reporting in it but it's clear that the story was unfinished because Jan lost his life before he could complete the job.

CO: What was the story? What was the connection that Jan Kuciak was making between the Italian Mafia and the Slovak government?

TN: What he was doing he was tracing the antecedents of some Italian nationals who have been located in Slovakia for at least ten years and in the east of the country and have been doing business there with Euro funds, which are transfers from European Union countries to poor countries to bring them up to speed economically. And what he was showing was that these Italians have family connections and direct connections to the Ndrangheta organized crime group in Italy. And that, in fact, not only were receiving some enormous largess from these Euro funds in Slovakia but that the ringleader Nino Vadalà had actually formed companies and done business specifically with two people in the prime minister's office. One young lady, a former beauty contestant whom the prime minister himself elevated to the position of a senior adviser in 2015, and another man who was the head of security council in the prime minister's office. These were fairly close political relatives of the prime minister himself.

CO: He wasn't — it was also his fiance Martina Kusnirova killed at the same time. And the police are definitely linking this to Mr. Kuciak’s reporting. So what's been the reaction in Slovakia as far as you can tell?

TN: As far as I can tell almost a universal disgust and not quite a losing of hope, but it's definitely a seminal moment because, you know, corruption has been, for a long time, has been sort of an organizing principle in Slovak of politics with oligarchs controlling public funds through their political representatives. But this is something different. This is, not only organized crime directly connected to the Prime Minister's office, but also really a heart wrenching murder of a young couple who were just about to get married. And honestly, you know, they were just children.

CH: From our archives, Canadian journalist Tom Nicholson speaking with Carol about the murder of Slovak journalist Jan Kuciak and his fiance Martina Kusnirova, in February 2018.

[music: ambient]

Oldest DJ Retires

Guest: Ray Cordeiro

CH: For the past couple of weeks in Hong Kong, people have turned their radios on out of habit — expecting to hear a voice that has left the station. For decades, loyal listeners have been tuning into "All the Way with Ray" to hear the sweet sounds of Ray Cordeiro and his selection of easy-listening music. The weekday radio show has been on the air since 1970. So Mr. Cordeiro has generations of fans and followers. The 96-year-old holds the Guinness World Record for the world's longest-working disc jockey. But last month, after more than 70 years in radio, Mr. Cordeiro retired. We reached Ray Cordeiro in Hong Kong.

CO: Ray, how is retirement going?

RAY CORDEIRO: Oh, wonderful, wonderful. I’m taking life easy. You know, resting a lot, which I am looking forward to and I'm getting it now. So I'm happy.

CO: But you must miss being on the radio?

RC: No, no, no more radio for me for now. [CO cuckles] Completely out! [laughing]

CO: You’re 96 years old, you have been on the air since 1970 with that show. You could keep it up. You were still going strong. Why did you decide to... to quit? Why did you decide to retire?

RC: Well, simply because I’m 96, you know? And if I... if I go on, I'll be a hundred, you know? [chuckling] So I better take it easy and live a little longer, maybe. [both chuckling]

CO: Well, why not be on the air until you're 100?

RC: There is a possibility that I may go back and break 100. My health is very, very good. I'm healthy. As you can hear, my voice is pretty powerful. So I’m OK.

CO: Your show, "All the Way with Ray", that’s been on the air since 1970. What is it about the show, I haven't heard it, what is it that made it so popular with people in Hong Kong?

RC: Well, I think it's my voice behind it and my choice of music behind it. And I have been following, you know, all the way from the days of Sinatra, and then, and of course, I can't forget Matt Monro, who started here in Hong Kong,

CO: you interviewed a lot of the people you had on... you played their music, but you interviewed them. And one of the big breaks was with the Beatles, right?

RC: Oh, yeah. Well, [chuckling] that must be the biggest. [laughing]

CO: Can you tell us the story? You had two interviews with them, right? One in London, one in Hong Kong. Tell us the story of the interview you had with them?

RC: Oh, it was very simple. The content was the manager of EMI in Hong Kong, he wrote a letter which I handed to the gentleman at the EMI office. And so he picked up the phone and he called the Beatles manager, Brian Epstein. And Brian said, oh, perfect timing! Tomorrow, we're having a press conference at the headquarters. So he said come along. Then, my problem is I didn't have a recorder. I was just holding a piece of paper and a pen. [laughing] So... so EMI loaned me a recorder. [CO chuckles] It was very... very nice of them. So I... I managed to do the interview.

CO: So you interviewed Paul McCartney, John Lennon, all of them, or?

RC: Yeah, all four of them. Paul McCartney was... because he was like the spokesman of the Beatles, so he was the first to appear and greet everybody. And then, he saw me with a Beatle magazine under my arm. He says he wants to have a look at it, so I handed it to him. I said could you autograph that to me? He said No problem. So I thought he just signed the cover, but he signed the whole magazine for me. [both chuckling]

CO: But that interview, that encounter, was in London. And then what happened when the Beatles came to Hong Kong?

RC: Well, they arrived at Hong Kong airport, and, of course, I was there again. And again, they were very, very, very happy to see me, but like old buddies.

CO: And then you became one of the most famous DJs in all of Hong Kong, right?

RC: Well, [laughing] I have to be who... who could be that lucky? Reaching the Beetles so often, you know? And all four of them.

CO: Those weren't the only pop stars you got to know.

RC: Oh, no!

CO: Whoever came to Hong Kong, right?

RC: No, no, I interviewed everybody. And I am actually a jazz lover. So I got to meet a lot of jazz singers like Tony Bennett, for example.

CO: But the big success of your radio show is because you played such great music, right?

RC: Well, I'm not trying to brag about it. Yes, I do play the best music, people like Sinatra, the Beatles, Andy Williams, Tony Bennett, etc., etc. All of... all the big names.

CO: Do you like playing the music of today? Is that also in your repertoire?

RC: Well, look to the tee, as you can put it. You know, I'm not happy with the music of today. I prefer music of yesterday. [laughing]

CO: What don't you like about music today?

RC: I don't know, maybe... maybe I'm getting old, you know, so I prefer the old standards, so to speak.

CO: I have to ask you as another radio show host, how do you do it? What's your advice to me? If I want to still be on the air when I'm 96, what's your advice?

RC: Stick to the best music in the world. [both laughing]

CO: OK, we're going to change this show into a music show. That would... that'll help me then.

RC: Of course, that definitely… you will be the biggest name in town.

CO: [chuckling] We want to play a song as a tribute to your career, Ray. So do you have any requests?

RC: Oh, requests! I would think of Matt Monro because he started his life in Hong Kong when he was in the army. And of course, he has a good voice. Even Sinatra thinks that he is the best male singer in the U.K., so it has to be Matt Monro for me.

CO: We will honour your request, [RC chuckles] and I will say thank you for speaking with us. Good luck in retirement. And thanks for the career advice.

RC: Right. Thank you for calling me. I'm glad to be in touch with you anytime. [laughing]

CO: Bye-bye.

RC: Bye-bye.

CH: Ray Cordeiro is the world's longest-working DJ. He recently retired at the age of 96. He was in Hong Kong.

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June 16, 2021 Episode Transcript

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