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The Current Transcript for April 7, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Let's get those teachers and other educators vaccinated now, let's get our transit drivers, let's get the people working in manufacturing and warehousing and food processing all vaccinated. Let's target the source of our spread.

MATT GALLOWAY: The vaccines are arriving more than two million doses this week alone. But are they getting to the people who need them the most? Now in 30 minutes, the push to reallocate shots to those working on the front lines who aren't able to work from home to help stop the spread of covid-19. Also, schools in some cities in Quebec, Saskatchewan and Ontario won't have in-person classes until at least mid-April. How prevalent is covid in our schools? We'll try and find out in an hour. In other news, it's spring. The sap is running. And one of the great traditions in Quebec is a trip to the sugar shack. The pandemic has put a stop to that, but no worries.

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VOICE 1: We got some potatoes. [French speech].

VOICE 2: Fried lard, basically.

VOICE 1: Fried lard, a big part of the syrup, that child [French speech] the taffy. My favourite part.

MG: How in the face of bankruptcy, one entrepreneur is bringing the belly busting goodness of the sugar shack home. That's coming up. But we begin with a remarkable story of addiction recovery and brotherly bonds from the son of the president of the United States. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Hunter Biden opens up about addiction, sobriety and family tragedy

Guests: Hunter Biden

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The first memory I have is of lying in a hospital bed next to my brother. I was almost three years old, I remember my brother, who was one year and one day older than me, holding my hand, staring into my eyes, saying, I love you, I love you, I love you over and over and over again.

MG: That was Hunter Biden in June of 2015, giving a eulogy for his brother Beau, who died of brain cancer. Hunter's path before and after his brother's death has been a dark one filled with addiction and loss. And he was dragged into the political scene by Republicans during the presidential campaign to attack his father, Joe Biden. Hunter Biden's new memoir is called Beautiful Things. Hunter Biden. Good morning.

HUNTER BIDEN: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Congratulations on this book.

HUNTER BIDEN: Thank you very much.

MG: Tell me what you're describing in that eulogy, describing a relationship that began well, began when I was born, a bond that started in a different way when my mother and my sister were tragically killed in an auto accident that my brother and I were in. And it created a bond between us that I one point said to my dad, I said, I wish you didn't make us love each other so much, which was the greatest gift that he ever gave me, but also the hardest moment in my life when I lost him.

MG: What do you remember about that crash?

HUNTER BIDEN: You know, I very little and I've been told so many stories about what we called, my brother and I call my mommy, my mom now, who came back in and made us a whole family again. But it was really traumatic incident. And one of the things that I don't think that I have fully investigated within myself as to how that trauma impacted me going through life and to recognise that loss of a mother and loss of a sister is something hard to understand as a child. But I hope I'm understanding it more and more. Writing the book was a part of that process.

MG: There are a lot of people who would think that that tragedy, to your point about it shaping your life and impacting your life, could lead to substance abuse. There's a theory around addiction that addiction in some ways is about filling a hole or filling holes. How much of that, what happened in your life when it came to addiction, came out of a moment like that?

HUNTER BIDEN: I don't know that I can say for certain. I certainly know that trauma is not an excuse for addiction. But, you know, there is a doctor who's spoken about this a great deal, Gabor Mate, who is a Canadian doctor. And his conclusion was that all addiction at its root is trauma. And I never necessarily wanted to believe that because there's a part of every addict that when they are able to overcome their addiction, the first one was to just believe that, OK, that was a blip in my life. That was just an aberration. I got sucked up into a moment. I'm an addict because I'm just an addict or I drank just because I like to drink. And when I heard Gabor Mante talk about it with such compassion, but also with a real scientific background. It opened my eyes to the idea that if maybe we were able to address the trauma and how it shaped my life, maybe you would have a better understanding of why it is that you're seeking to fill that hole. What we call in the programme is, you know, it's a God sized hole, which is impossible to fill with the drink or a drug.

MG: The book talks a lot about addiction and talks about alcohol and your time using alcohol. You were drinking and then you started using crack at a time when there was already a lot of information around how addictive crack was. Why did you start to use crack?

HUNTER BIDEN: It's impossible to answer with specificity, but I can say because the hole grew bigger and alcohol wasn't working. I will say this, though, is that the most insidious drug that I've ever encountered and the most damaging not only to myself but to the relationships and to the community is alcohol. But why I moved from alcohol to crack is I don't have a good answer for other than the hole grew bigger. And I reached out for one of the most dangerous thing that I knew, but I don't know. I just don't know.

MG: And the hole has grown bigger, I mean, this is after Beau's death.

HUNTER BIDEN: Yes. Yeah. After Beau died, I didn't know where to turn. In your brain, of an addict, has a really easy answer for pain, which is the tried and true, you know, go have a drink and I will be right with the world. Obviously, it's fool's gold.

MG: You write in the book, you write very vividly about addiction that you had to stop writing because your crack addiction was kind of conjuring up a craving for it. How controlling is that craving?

HUNTER BIDEN: Well, today, it's under control, and the reason that it is under control today is because I adhere to a daily routine that puts my recovery at the centre of my life with the realisation that the one thing that I can have some control over is the choice not to drink or use today, but in order to make certain that my mind, like the any mind of an addict, doesn't play that trick on you of saying, well, maybe just one. I got to put a lot of guideposts in my way on any given day. I get up and I, I say a few prayers that my brother and my grandmother and I would say together with kids, and it brings me back to a place of love. And then I literally think of all the things that I have to be grateful for. No. One is the fact that I'm waking up without a hangover or need to reach over to the bedside table for a crack pipe. And I'm lying in bed with someone that I love, that is that respects me, that I respect more than anything in the world, my wife Melissa. And then I try to fill my day with purpose, which is easy to do when you have a one year old, but you have to have a healthy fear of the relapse around the corner. I can't live with that fear, but I have to put roadblocks out to make me stop and think about what it is I'm about to do, whether it puts me in danger of the only thing that I know that when it happens, I can't control.

MG: When you weren't able to control it and it was at its worst, your father was the vice president of the United States and he shows up to try to help you. What happened there when he showed up?

HUNTER BIDEN: Well, somehow he was able to winnow down the number of Secret Service that were with him to one car and pulled up to an apartment that I was living in. Beau had passed away and my wife and I were separated and I was living by myself for the first time in 46 years. And I had relapsed and I hadn't left the apartment. I was drinking a quart of vodka easily a day and it was impossible to wake up without having a drink by the bedside just to be able to physically get out of bed. And he shows up and knocks on the door and I wonder who that is. My dad calls me every day and I don't answer. He text me 32 times a day, but he didn't give me any warning and knocked on the door and I knew why he was there. He said, Honey, how are you? And I said, I'm fine. He said, you're not fine. You're not fine. You got to get help. You got to let me help you tell me what to do. Please just tell me what to do. In that moment, I think that is he- I don't think I know that he saved me. I was in a really dark place, not just with the physical destruction that that that amount of drinking was doing to my body and my brain, but also incredibly deep depression. And he just yanked me out of it in that moment just long enough that I said, OK, I'll go get help. And I did. And I followed through. And that lasted for a period of time. And then I relapsed again months later. But that's what this book is about. It's about never giving up on the people that you love. The real courage wasn't mine and reaching out to the hand that was offered to me, the real courage was in that the people that never gave up on me and continued to reach out. For me, that's a hard job and it's a hard and very scary place for someone to be in. And it's really hard to watch somebody fail so many times and and continue to reach out and open up your heart and care and care enough that you can put yourself in your own emotions, in your own life in danger for another person.

MG: That's a familiar story and I think that that idea of not giving up, but also that sense of compassion will be a familiar story around addiction for a lot of families and a lot of people. I mean, in the midst of this crisis, we're in the midst of a pandemic, but also a shadow pandemic with an opioid crisis that's happening. And obviously it stands out because it's a powerful story, but it also stands out because of your last name. And this is a last name that that you write is something that's, you know, has taken you to the highs and to the lows, has has gotten you in a lot of trouble personally, but also beyond when it comes to your family. The Republicans have used what you went through personally, especially Rudolph Giuliani and President Trump to target you personally, saying that your addiction was a failure, but also saying that you yourself had dragged down your father through involvement in the Ukrainian gas company Purisma being on the board of that, you write about this in the book and you say that. Did you make a mistake? No. Did you display a lack of judgement when it came to that issue? No. But would you do it again? No. Why did you say no? That you wouldn't do it again?

HUNTER BIDEN: I started at the beginning, which is that I accomplished a lot. I graduated from Yale Law School. I served on well over close to a dozen boards before I ever took the position with Prisma. I was chairman of the Board of the World Food Programme U.S. I was vice chairman of the board of Amtrak. I worked for boys. Shawn Flexner was one of the best law firms in the world. I had started run two very successful businesses and I was approached to serve on the board to focus on corporate governance. I did not take into account to the level to which the opposition to my father would go to manufacture a completely false narrative about me doing that. And that's what I regret, is ever giving anyone an opening to be able to muddy the water in the way that they did.

MG: I guess just going back to the judgement question, though, I mean, even your dad, when you were asked to be on the board of that Ukrainian company, your dad came to you and said, are you sure about this? And so you must have known that this, given your name, that you must have known that this would could create something.

HUNTER BIDEN: Yeah. And that's why I did the due diligence that I did before I joined the board. And I came to the to the judgement that I thought that I was on the right side. I was on the side of a company that was under incredible pressure from the aggression of the Vladimir Putin and Russia, which has taken over Crimea and was encroaching the eastern border of Ukraine primarily to regain control of the energy sector. So I made that judgement. And whether in 2020 hindsight, it was great judgement or not, I leave that up to everyone else. But what I didn't take into account was to the lengths that they would go to distort the truth that comes up in the second debate in the most recent election.

MG: I want to play you a clip from that. This is from the second presidential debate, starting with then President Donald Trump.

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DONALD TRUMP: Hunter got thrown out of the military. He was thrown out, dishonourably discharged.

JOE BIDEN: That's not true. He wasn't dishonourably--

DONALD TRUMP: For cocaine use. And he didn't have a job until you became vice president.

JOE BIDEN: None of that is true.

DONALD TRUMP: When you became vice president, he made a fortune in Ukraine and China and Mazatlan and various various other places.

JOE BIDEN: That is simply not true.

DONALD TRUMP: He made a fortune.

JOE BIDEN: Not true.

DONALD TRUMP: And he didn't have a job.

JOE BIDEN: My son, my son like a lot of people, like a lot of people, you know, at home, had a drug problem. He's overtaken it. He's he's fixed it. He's worked on it. And I'm proud of him.

MG: Hunter Biden, what did that mean when your father didn't hesitate to stand up for you?

HUNTER BIDEN: Well, I am I'm always proud of my dad. And but I was particularly proud of him in that moment because he did what few others at that height have ever done, which is to do without hesitation or fear, to say someone I love suffers from addiction, which is a mental health issue, and he's working on it and he's doing the best that he can. And I can't tell you how many people reached out to me afterwards, total strangers, through friends, through acquaintances on social media, but through people would send me messages and say, tell your dad thank you and, Hunter, thank you for being open about it. There's such a stigma to addiction. And the great irony of it is that it's a disease that requires that you stand up and say, I have a problem, I have a problem, and I need help. And when people think that if they do that, that they're going to be shamed and that they are going to be ostracised, it makes it all the harder for anyone to ever do it. And the other thing I was proud of, but I wasn't in any way surprised that that's my dad's response, because that's how he feels.

MG: Even given what's at stake. I mean, he's running he's in this debate for the job that he's always wanted. And I mean, I just wonder whether you'd ever, not apologise, but spoken to your dad about how the actions that you had, had created this kind of political firestorm in some ways.

HUNTER BIDEN: Yeah, I you know, the the longest running debate that my dad and I would have during the campaign is who is should be apologising to who I would call as your dad. I'm so sorry it got so bad. You got to answer these questions. And then he'd say, oh, God, don't worry about that. Everybody's rooting for you, honey. And I'm sorry that I'm putting you through this.

MG: You said that you talk to him when you were at your lowest every day. He's now the president of the United States, he's a busy man. How often do you talk to him?

HUNTER BIDEN: Every day. I actually, right before we got on, right after I was trying to put baby Beau and he called and said, hey, hey, I wanted to tell you, I just got out of a meeting with - and he named the person that I know well - and he said he wanted me to tell you how proud he was of you. And that was the second communication, the first call, and probably only one of four that I'll receive today. We talk every day.

MG: What did it mean for you when he became the president?

HUNTER BIDEN: Well, it was it was an amazing moment, but not without its- I just wish my brother could've been there. And I know that he was I know that that he is and I know that he is with me still every day. But I wish I could have had him there to give me a hug. The other thing it meant to me is that I don't know anybody that's more prepared to be president of the United States, not just because of his resume and his career, but because of his life experience, particularly at this moment in time. I think that too many people out there that are sick and suffering that just want to know somebody understands and he certainly understands.

MG: Just finally, one of the slogans that the Republicans used during this election was where's Hunter? And you read about it in the book saying you could probably buy a shirt at various websites with that on it. How would you answer that question today?

HUNTER BIDEN: I'm still standing. I'm right here. I'm with my family. I'm doing the things that I care about. I'm trying to be of service to the people that I love and to the people that are sick and suffering the affliction that I'd faced. I'm right here. I was never gone. People that've gone through and a lot of people that faced the struggles that I faced are not invisible. I'm right here. And hopefully I can be that hand that reaches back into that dark place to pull someone else out.

MG: It's a powerful book and I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you, Hunter. Thank you.

HUNTER BIDEN: I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

MG: Take care.

HUNTER BIDEN: Thanks.

MG: Hunter Biden's new memoir is called Beautiful Things. The CBC News is next. And then.

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Not to take it away from older people, but rather to look now at more targeted approaches to get people in priority neighbourhoods almost regardless of their age, if they're working in a risky setting.

MG: That's Toronto mayor, John Tory on what he calls a more targeted vaccination approach in his city. Into whose arms should each precious dose of those vaccines be going in order to stop the spread of covid-19? That story coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Rethinking vaccine rollout to reach those who need it most

Guests: Nadia Theodore, Dr. Zain Chagla, Dr. Srinivans Murthy

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the country's biggest school board is pulling the plug on in-person learning, following several others in Ontario, Quebec and Saskatchewan, how schools are coping with rising cases and spreading variants. But first, the over 50 set of factory workers, the great vaccine debate.

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MG: So far, the vaccine rollout plan from province to province has been based primarily on age, but this third wave is hitting younger people and spreading like wildfire in essential workplaces. So now some are calling for those in vulnerable jobs to get their shots right away, regardless of age. In Ontario, the Brampton Board of Trade is proposing a pilot project with six companies in food processing and manufacturing to vaccinate their employees on site. Maple Lear Foods is one of those companies, Nadia Theodore, senior vice president of Global Government and Industry Relations there. Nadia, good morning.

NADIA THEODORE: Good morning. It's a pleasure to talk to you this morning.

MG: Glad to have you here. How would this pilot programme at Maple Leaf Foods when it comes to vaccinations work?

NADIA THEODORE: Well, if you'll allow me, I just want to take a step back and and say to everybody listening today that for Maple Leaf Foods and the group of companies that are really looking to bring vaccines in the plant to our factory workers and to bring them the vaccines as soon as possible, is really a continuation of the work that we have been doing over the past year to keep our workers safe and also to continue the supply of essential food and essential goods to the province and to the entire country. For us at Maple Leaf Foods, bringing vaccines in-plant to allow our employees to be vaccinated will simply be a way for us to make vaccination as simple as possible for our workers. And at the end of the day, will mean that more people across the province are protected.

MG: And so when you say in-plant, are you talking about actually having a vaccination programme in the factory itself?

NADIA THEODORE: Absolutely. So, you know, I always say that I am not a medical professional. I am not a logistics expert. I am not an epidemiologist. And so I will stand to be corrected by those who are the most expert. But what we have seen in the United States and in other jurisdictions and what I have heard and what many have heard from medical professionals and logistics experts across the country is a model that could have vaccination clinics on site, in our plants, or could have mobile clinics come to our plans to administer the vaccine to our employees.

MG: Would that be mandatory for employees?

NADIA THEODORE: No. So, you know, as you may have heard Maple Leaf Foods over the past year has taken increased measures to really provide information to our employees with regards to the vaccine. So while, you know, taking the vaccine will be completely voluntary. Certainly our hope is that given the information that we have provided to our employees over the past year, and in particular since January, we've been providing employees with the facts around vaccination are very important. Certainly our hope is that the majority of employees will avail themselves of the opportunity to get the vaccine. And I would add to that what we are hearing, I'll speak for Maple Leaf Foods in particular, what we are hearing amongst our employees is, in fact, a strong desire to get vaccinated.

MG: But just to be clear, if the employees don't get vaccinated, that means they can still go to work.

NADIA THEODORE: Absolutely, vaccination is will and is and will be voluntary.

MG: We asked the medical officer of health and Puel region where this programme would be operating if it were to go forward. Dr. Lawrence Loh, we asked about this proposal. He said in a statement: With the majority of our population living in high-risk neighbourhoods, moving quickly down age brackets continues to be the most effective and fastest way to ensure that we get this vital protection to our community in the least amount of time. Do you have any indication that you'll get the green light for this kind of programme?

NADIA THEODORE: Well, you know, my friends and colleagues call me the annoying optimist. And so I will say that indeed I am very optimistic that we will get the green light either for for a pilot programme or listen, better still, the green light to really move up essential workers in in phase two and then allow for vaccinations on site. I was very heartened yesterday seeing some of the the media out of Premier Ford's presser that that said very clearly that phase two can be nimble and that they are indeed looking at how they might get vaccines to those that are most affected and most vulnerable and most at risk. And so I am hopeful and I am optimistic that we can find a way again to ensure that those that are most at risk and those that are most vulnerable and those that had been affected the most can get vaccinated as soon as possible. And that we can make that as easy as possible for for for them to do so.

MG: If if this programme doesn't go ahead, we'll make believe offer paid sick days so that your employees can get vaccinated at other clinics.

NADIA THEODORE: Yeah. So, you know, Matt, I would say is that right now what I am focussed on is really getting vaccination in our plan.

MG: Right. But if the programme doesn't go forward, will you give your employees paid time off so they can go and get the shot somewhere else?

NADIA THEODORE: I'm actually very confident that the programme will go forward. And, you know, Matt, I would say that, again, we are as a first step, looking at a pilot programme to see if this is going. This is something that that will work for the province. And hopefully, frankly, my wish my belief operates across the country. My hope is that we will see this rolling out across the country.

MG: You'll forgive me for asking again, because I didn't get an answer to that. Would you, if this doesn't go forward? And again, it's unclear as to whether it will. So if it doesn't go forward, will your employees, if they can't get the shot on site, will they be given, you know, a paid day off so that they can go and get the vaccine somewhere else?

NADIA THEODORE: Yes, and I'm not answering your question directly, not to be elusive, but just to say that right now my focus has not been on thinking about the hypothetical of whether this programme will not go forward or whether the province and provinces across the country will not do what other jurisdictions. But the United States and many other countries have not done. What I am focussed on is planning for in-site vaccination for our employees, when that happens, employees that will be getting vaccinated during their shift on-site, will not be docked pay when they leave the site to go and spend the hour or however long it takes to get vaccinated--

MG: Away from the hypothetical, this is concrete. How much paid sick leave does Maple Leaf give employees if they test positive or if they don't feel well and they need to go and get tested and then wait for results?

NADIA THEODORE: We offer a full a top up to the CERB benefit for our employees right now.

MG: So does that mean does that mean paid sick days if somebody is not feeling well, then they are able to take time off and they have a paid benefit?

NADIA THEODORE: That's correct. If if if if an employee is absent for a covid related reason, we offer a Serb a top up to the Serb benefit for our employees right now. And I'm speaking only for Maple Foods at this point, right? I know that the pilot is a group of companies, but for Maple Leaf foods.

MG: This is important because the issue of paid sick days is for many people, top of mind that they talk about vaccinations, but they also need to ensure that employees are given cover if they're feeling ill in these, as you say, essential industries to insure that, for example, the food supply is there. You're confident that you're doing enough?

NADIA THEODORE: Absolutely. And, you know, listen, what I what what I would say to you and to everybody is that for Mapley Foods and for me in particular, as the person who is really trying to spearhead these Incyte vaccination programmes for our employees, I fully understand that the issue of paid sick leave and I would note that the calls for paid sick leave is one that has been called upon by the government to provide. But Maple Leaf Foods, given our strong commitment and desire to do our part as a company to help kerb covid cases and to keep our employees safe and to do our part to make sure that we stop the spread. What we have done since the very beginning is to put in robust measures for health and safety of our employees inside on site. And we have also provided for our employees a top up to the sort of benefit when employees are absent for absent for any quality related reason.

MG: Just to be clear, just finally on this on the on the issue of doing enough, I mean, there's currently an active outbreak at your plant in the Toronto area with four cases listed on the city of Toronto's website. So are the measures that you have in place now to protect the employees there in the plant working now, are they enough for these new variants?

NADIA THEODORE: Yeah, you know, and you know what, Matt, and thanks for thanks for bringing that up. So indeed, we do have four cases at our plant in Toronto, which is deemed as an outbreak by the city of Toronto. And there is no doubt there is absolutely no doubt that despite robust protocols and processes in place to mitigate the risk of covid-19, not just in maple leaf plants, in other manufacturing plants, but across all essential workplaces, the various are putting increased pressure on those protocols. There is no doubt to say otherwise is disingenuous. We can do our level best. Maple Leaf Foods alone has spent over 50 million dollars on protection. And that is why that is exactly the reason why you hit the nail on the head. We are calling for us to act now to bring vaccines to our plants, to vaccinate our essential workers, because there will never be enough that we can do not there will never be enough.

MG: We'll have to leave it there. But we're going to talk further about how those vaccines could roll out in situations like yours. In the meantime, thank you very much.

NADIA THEODORE: Thank you very much, Matt, it was a pleasure.

MG: Nadia Theodore, senior vice president of Global Government and industry relations at Maple Leaf Foods. Dr. Zain Chagla is an infectious disease physician at St. Joseph's Health Care in Hamilton. Dr. Srinivas Murthy is a critical care specialist in Canada, research chair in pandemic preparedness at UBC. They've been listening into our conversation and joining us now. Doctors, good morning to you.

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Hi, good morning.

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: Morning.

MG: Doctor Chagla. What do you make of the proposal from Mapley Foods to have vaccination clinics at the facility, not take employees elsewhere, but give them the shot there in the factory?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, I mean, I think the more interfaces you can give to people, particularly ones that work in these types of precarious settings, the better it is. I mean, I think that's not the be all and end all here, right? I mean, the workplace transmission, an essential worker transmission isn't all just about the factories. It certainly can be driven in that part. But, you know, the infections also come in from the home. They come in from other environments. And so it's not enough just to vaccinate the plants. It's more that you vaccinate the community along with that person rather than just at the point of contact and also accepting. It's a little bit awkward in some senses to get vaccinated right at your point of contact. You know, if you're lining up, if you're being asked, you know, people are going to ask, did you get the vaccine? Did you get the vaccine? And so, yeah, it's a great intervention. Is one place to vaccinate, but it can't be the only solution for this population. It has to be coupled with many other points of vaccination and work on vaccine hesitancy there.

MG: The Ontario government announced yesterday that it's moving up vaccinations for essential workers. And the revised timeline has shifted two weeks from June to mid-May. Dr. Chagla, is that enough?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: If we're going to use vaccines to kerb transmission and get us out of whatever lockdown is coming today? We need to get to these people faster and we need to get to their communities faster. We're starting to do 50 year olds in high risk communities. That's great. There's good reporting today suggesting actually we've missed a lot of people in high risk neighbourhoods, that low risk neighbourhoods have gotten higher uptake of vaccines even in Toronto. And so, you know, if you're not really moving up this population, which, again, data after data, even our data suggesting the voices are spreading more in this population, if you're not moving them up, if you're not moving the 20 year old up in that area, we're not going to be curbing transmission in Toronto until they've been locked down. Restaurants have been closed. Many retailers have been cut to the bones. And still we're seeing ongoing transmission. It is in this group. And so you're not going to be affecting that transmission if the first needles are going in in May and the second needles going far after that.

MG: Dr. Murthy, last month, British Columbia started vaccinating frontline workers in some plants and industrial camps on farms as well. And also in communities like Whistler, they had plans to vaccinate people of all ages in essential jobs starting in April. Why did that come to a halt?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: It didn't come to a halt per say, but it's obviously slowed down. The main reason was that the AstraZeneca vaccine was targeted towards that younger population, which would be those essential workers given the inability to use it in those populations, it's slowed down. That being said, they're still hoping to get those essential workers, teachers, factory workers and others in that cohort vaccinated as soon as possible, given the current prioritisation scheme. And the main issue is supply.

MG: Dr. Bonnie Henry, the provincial health officer, was asked about this yesterday and announced that the province would restart the worker vaccination programme once the Johnson and Johnson vaccine arrives at the end of the month. Have a listen to who they have been targeting.

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People who work in our food processing plants. Often both parents are working. They don't have necessarily the ability to take time off. It's very difficult in those environments. So we have directed vaccine at protecting those workplaces. And as soon as we have vaccine available, we will be restarting that programme. But we've been managing the highest risk workplaces first. And and quite frankly, they often are the larger workplaces where people are more poorly paid. And we know that it involves many of our racialised communities.

MG: Dr. Murthy, if we know that these groups are vulnerable, why not prioritise them with the vaccines that are available today, vaccines like Pfizer, Matara?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: Yeah, I think that's a perfect point. I think we can prioritise them. But there's so many other people who are still needing to be vaccinated, who are at higher risk of very severe and still have moved all of 75, for example, and vaccinated those with lots of comorbidity. And so it's a very tricky calculus to make as at controlling the disease and controlling those especially high risk for a very bad outcome document. You made an extra point there about those individuals not being able to take paid time off. And I think that's a more fundamental idea that we still have to work on to get those people ability to stay home when they need to.

MG: Dr. Chagla, this is in some ways an issue of supply, it seems like. And yesterday the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, had this to say about redistributing vaccines.

SOUNDCLIP

We don't have an unlimited amount of vaccine. Yes, the feds dropped quite a few vaccines onto us just a few days ago, over the weekend. Those are all taken. They're all spoken for. So if you change anything, just think you're taking it off an elderly person.

MG: Dr. Chagla, is this to you an issue of supply? Does prioritising essential workers in high risk neighbourhoods mean that you're taking vaccines away from seniors, as the premier might suggest?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: You know, I think you have to think about short game and long game. Like, the short game. Yes, you might get some more vulnerable seniors that aren't vaccinated or a slower roll out to them and going to people with comorbidities and other issues that may land them in hospital. But I think the long game here really needs to be described. You know, a 60 year old in a low risk community that's able to shelter and work at home for the next foreseeable two months. Yes, they probably do need to be vaccinated, but they're not contributing to community transmission. They're good. They're a dead end host at that point. If they do get covid because they're not necessarily spreading it to a lot of people. If you take a 20 year old that works in a factory that lives in a multigenerational household that gets covid-19, all of a sudden that case that gets acquired at the factory turns into six cases at home that go back into the community. If you don't deal with that 20 year old and make sure they're immune and not able to transmit it, you're going to deal with more cases appearing. And again, in the long game, if you start slowing down that type of transmission, paradoxically, it's going to actually help that 60 year old that can stay at home and be at home because community rates start falling and that gives everyone protection. So, yes, we have limited supply, but at the same time, we have to have fundamental discussions. Is the supply here to prevent people to come to hospital or is the supply here to prevent people from transmitting the disease? And we're going to lock down again, people want a way out. I would argue that it should be redirected towards people transmitting the disease as compared to people that are able to stay at home, but at a higher risk of complications.

MG: So when you hear about the new data from ICES, which is a non-profit group looking at health data, and it shows that vaccination rates are highest in Toronto in wealthy neighbourhoods like Rossdale and Forest Hill, neighbourhoods that have the lowest death and hospitalisation rates in the city, how does that happen?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: I mean, again, if you if you make things a free for all and you say, you know, come to mass vac centres, you're going to favour the people who have time off, who have kids that have very good resources, that are able to get people in any time of the day that are able to call in and on hold for four hours. You're not going to incentivise the people who are working all the time, who have parents that don't speak English, who have lower levels of literacy and education to actually access these vaccines. And I think we saw this. Unfortunately, it was supposed to be an equitable rollout in Toronto and it did not turn out to be an equitable rollout in in the short amount of time we've been doing this.

MG: What about in BC, Dr. Murthy? What can be done to make vaccine rollouts more equitable?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: I think it's that classic speed versus precision conversation that we were having a couple of weeks ago in the country and everyone watching the number of doses being given to people and followed it very closely. But I think we've acknowledged that we really care about who's getting the vaccine, both to control the disease in the community and control the disease more broadly. I think how can we do things better is getting to the people that we were just speaking of, the people who are vulnerable, the people where the disease is spreading most quickly and the people who can't do anything about protecting themselves over the coming weeks, we're all seeing rising case counts. We really need to work hard with them.

MG: What's the biggest obstacle in British Columbia to do that then?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: I think obviously it's an easy answer to say supply, but it's a huge logistical hurdle to get people who are harder to reach the language in rural regions or so on. And it's easier to vaccinate people in big cities for people who have the luxury of coming to a clinic. And so I think operationalising that is still a major challenge.

MG: The federal government was speaking yesterday about vaccines that have been distributed, showing through its tracker that tens of thousands of doses are on administered in the province and this is happening across the country. Who are those doses for, Dr. Murthy?

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: Those doses are for everyone who sort of signed up for their vaccine over the coming days and weeks, and so when you register for your vaccine appointments, probably in a few days, that those sort of deserve to be friends. And so it's counted in that system is not being given, even though it's about to be given to somebody. Obviously, we'd like a quick thoroughfare of doses so that when they arrive in a pharmacy, they can be given as soon as possible. That's a bit tricky to implement.

MG: Dr. Chagla, as you mentioned, there will be a stay at home order announced in the province of Ontario today, but it will not deal with manufacturing plants like the ones we were just speaking of with the Maple Leaf Foods plant and others. What impact do you think that's going to have on trying to get a handle on these variants?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, I mean, there's two big things. You know, two studies that were done. One that I was involved in when some colleagues were involved in that looked back at December and January in those areas where the initial stay at home order were put in place. If you broke up Toronto and Peel into regions and small census tracts of essential workers versus less essential workers, there were still more cases and more deaths in the communities of essential workers. Even during a lockdown, it was actually quite higher and again during this period of lockdown in Toronto. And people that really would have a grey zone or whatever it's called, you know, we still saw VOCs rising in essential workers at two and a half times higher, the rate of communities of low level, essential workers. And so, again, this may redistribute it may or may shut down transmission amongst people that could theoretically work from home and have those luxuries. It's not going to do anything for those communities and that the discussion can't stop at the stay at home or is everything we really do have to have those difficult discussions around rapid access to testing sick day pay, financial supports and, yes, a vaccine campaign that actually goes into those communities and makes young people in those communities immune as compared to just the older people in those communities.

MG: Great to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much.

DR. SRINIVAS MURTHY: All the best.

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Have a good day.

MG: Doctor Zain Chanla, an infectious disease physician at St. Joseph's Health Care in Hamilton, Ontario. Dr. Srinivas Murthy is a critical care specialist and Canada research chair in pandemic preparedness at UBC. We did ask to speak with both the British Columbia Health Minister Adrian Dix and the Ontario Health Minister, Christine Elliot. Neither were available to speak with us this morning. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

Sugar Shack in Canada, it's our identity. So if you think about it, there's the maple leaf and our flag. So it means everything. We have to keep this alive.

MG: Spring has sprung, but Quebec sugar shacks are eerily silent this year. That just means the people of La Belle Provence are sugaring off at home instead. We'll tell you that story coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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What goes into decisions around school closures; and sugar shack meals-to-go initiative aims to help struggling Quebec businesses

Guests: Ashleigh Tuite, Stephanie Laurin

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Folks across the province, we're looking at 98.5 Percent, almost 99 percent of the schools are currently open. 99.88 Percent of students do not have active cases. 99.83 percent of staff do not have an active case. Where we saw the problem and everyone remembers this at Christmas, when the kids go back into the community, that's where it's happening. It's not happening in the schools. It's happening when there's a community spread in hot areas.

MG: That's Ontario Premier Doug Ford running the numbers yesterday as regions including Toronto, announced a stop to in-person classes. It was local health authorities that ordered the closure, not the provincial government. In other provinces, schools have closed too. In Regina, learning has gone online, and parts of Quebec high schoolers have moved to a staggered week. So fewer students are in the classroom at one time. And the variance of covid-19 spreading in this third wave of educators and parents in many parts of this country wondering how to keep schools open safely. Professor Ashleigh Tuite is an infectious disease epidemiologist at the University of Toronto Dalla Lana, School of Public Health. Ashely, good morning.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Good morning.

MG: Before I ask you about schools, I mean, it's all part and parcel, I suppose. Let me ask you about the stay at home order in the province of Ontario, which will be announced later on today. Do you believe, based on what you've heard thus far, do you believe that this will be enough to slow the spread of these variants of concern?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think it will help. I don't think it goes far enough. I think, you know, it's really important to look at where transmission is happening. And it's, you know, it's primarily happening amongst essential workers. And so it's essential workers continue to work, which is sort of the nature of these sorts of stay at home orders. Then, you know, that's not going to have the impact that we want. So we still need to address the issues that we've been talking about for a long time in terms of things like paid sick leave and making sure that workplaces are safe.

MG: What about schools? I mean, Doug Ford says it's not happening in schools. It's happening where there's community spread in hot areas. Is there a basis for what he's saying?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I don't think so, I mean, at this point, we have growing evidence that children attending school do have an important role in the transmission of sars-cov-2. I would say the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. When it comes to schools, we're not always looking. And the challenge with with transmission in schools is that oftentimes children have mild or mild symptoms or asymptomatic. And so, you know, figuring out where they got infected can be challenging. There's nothing magical about a school environment, any place where people spend time indoors, breathing, shared air is an environment where you can have transmission happening. So I think, you know, the statement that there's no transmission happening in schools at this point is not something that anybody should be saying with a straight face.

MG: So tell me more about this. This is a question of getting people are asking across the country, what do we know about how much schools are responsible for the spread of covid?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: So we again, it's a tricky question to answer because you really have to look for it. And as I just said, oftentimes children are asymptomatic or they'll have mild symptoms. And so if you're trying to, you know, oftentimes the first time you have a sign that a child is infected as their parent, they bring it into their household and the parent is identified as infected. And then you realise that the child is infected. And then if you go out and test their classmates, then you get a sense of whether or not transmission has happened in the school setting. Having said that, there's no reason that transmission doesn't happen in school settings. But we also have protections in place in schools. So we have these layers. We have masking. We have physical distancing. We have, I think to some extent, in some schools have had a focussed on improving ventilation. So making sure that the air is clean so that people aren't breathing in as much shared air. But, you know, again, where those protections have failed we see transmission happened. It's just sort of the nature of the virus is spreading the air. And if you had situations where you have people standing crowded indoors, you're going to have transmission.

MG: In British Columbia, there are increasingly louder calls to close schools there due to a surge in cases particularly around one of the variants of concern. Here's what the provincial health officer, Bonnie Henry, said yesterday about what that would mean for schools in her province.

SOUNDCLIP

What we have also learnt is that we see cases go up when children are not in school, and that is often because they have other unstructured time and that children need school. We know that it is a safe place for them where emotional, physical as well as educational growth happens and that families and communities are best supported when we have children safely in school. And so we'll still be focussing on that.

MG: Ashleigh, what do you think of the reasons given for keeping schools open in British Columbia?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that school closures do have a negative impact on some children and their families. But it's not an either or. They can have a negative impact, but they can also be a source of transmission. And if you do have situations where you do have transmission happening in the wider community and you're seeing it in your schools, then, you know, you do have to make that difficult decision of shutting down schools.

MG: And is this different now because of these new variants, I mean, has that created less wiggle room, if I can put it that way, for us to deal with the spread of covid?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think so. You know, for a couple of reasons. One is that the variants are more transmissible. So the measures that we have in place in schools to try and prevent transmission need to be better in the sense that, because it transmits more readily if you have some cracks in terms of those protections, the virus will transmit. I think the other piece to this is the fact that because it's more transmissible and because it causes more severe disease so people who are infected with these variants have increased risk of hospitalisation, increased risk of being admitted to the ICU and increased risk of dying. If children bring covid home to their household, they can potentially you know, this has always been a rescuer. You infect other people in your household. But when you're dealing with these more transmissible and more severe variants, the impacts of bringing those infections home are even worse than they were a few months ago when we didn't have these variants to deal with.

MG: So is there a way to make schools safe enough to keep them going? I mean, we're getting into spring and in some parts of the country, it's getting warmer. You could open the windows or perhaps you could you could take the class outside. Are those options that that educators and administrators and governments should be looking at?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Absolutely. I think the outdoor learning has been underutilised. People have been providing examples of that since the beginning of the pandemic of how to do that. If you can move learning outdoors. I think it has huge benefits in terms of both reducing transmission risk. And I think also just in terms of education, I think it's a great thing to consider. And, you know, I think another really important thing to think about in terms of moving things outdoors is lunchtime. We closed indoor dining because it's risky in terms of people taking off their masks and eating. But we continue to have classrooms full of children eating lunch. And so if you could move lunchtime outdoors, that would have a huge benefit. I think at this point, we really need to also make sure that everyone has access to high quality well sitting masks at this point, we're recommending three layer masks at the minimum. And so making sure that everybody has access to that is really important in terms of preventing transmission in the classroom.

MG: What about - in just, we only have a minute or so left - but if you go back to the conversation we were having earlier, how big of a difference would it make if we could get teachers vaccinated sooner rather than later?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think vaccinating teachers would make a difference. I think they should be prioritised. But we also have to remember that there's still the risk of transmission amongst children and bringing infection into their homes. So I think teachers deserve and should be prioritised. We talk a lot about how essential schools are and if they should be the the last thing to close in, the first thing to open. And if we value teachers as essential workers and other school staff, then we should prioritise them to vaccination.

MG: This has been really helpful. Ashleigh, thank you as ever.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Thank you so much.

MG: Ashleigh Tuite is an infectious disease epidemiologist and an assistant professor at the University of Toronto's Dalla Lana, School of Public Health. Your thoughts on schools and keeping them open or keeping them close and having kids learn from home online. We'd love to hear from you. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway, I mentioned that, yes, in many parts of the country, spring is here. Usually at this time of the year, Quebeckers would be busy gorging on maple syrup at one of the province's famous sugar shacks before a second season. The tartan tablecloths are folded away and the cabanes are quiet. The kitchen's in about 75 shacks are teeming with activity, however, because some owners have found a way to keep the tradition and their businesses afloat, they are offering the Sugar Shack experience in a box. CBC Quebec City reporter Marika Wheeler and her family ordered one and went to pick it up at the local grocery store.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: OK, we're going to go to the store, the grocery store, go pick up the box of--

CHILD: [French speech]

VOICE 1: You smellit?

CHILD: Hmm.

VOICE 1: That's funny. I don't smell it. We're in a parking lot in the middle of the city. Oh, look at that. We can cross. Let's go. Come come come. You.

VOICE 2: [French speech]

VOICE 1: OK, so it's a big box Nicholas.

VOICE 2: Oh, there we go.

VOICE 1: Merci, Thank you.

VOICE 2: Merci.

VOICE 1: OK, maple. The Maple Leaf.

VOICE 3: Oh, what's inside?

VOICE 1: You ready, Nicholas? You want to come see?

VOICE 3: I hope you guys like this because there's plenty.

VOICE 1: What do you see?

CHILD: [French speech]

VOICE 3: Yeah, lots of plates.

VOICE 1: OK, so we got some potatoes, crispy crepes.

VOICE 3: So fried lard, basically.

VOICE 1: Fried lard.

VOICE 3: Slices.

VOICE 1: Fried lard slices. OK,.

VOICE 3: Oh, what is that?

VOICE 1: Maple syrup. A big can of maple syrup. That child [French speech] the taffy. It's my favourite part. Ham.

VOICE 3: A block of hame. More taffy. Sugar pie. That must be meat pie. What's in there? Oh, those are the popsicle sticks. That's for when we do the taffy on the snow. OK, what else have we got? Uh, sausages in syrup, beans, your favourite and pea soup.

VOICE 3: Ooh la la.

MG: Ooh la la, is right. I'm hungry already. The initiative is called Ma Cabane a la Maison, or Home Sweet Home. And the woman behind the idea is a fourth generation sugar shack owner, Stephanie Laurin. She co owns the Chalet des Erables in Ste-Anne-des-Plaine Quebec. Stephanie, good morning.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Good morning. It's so cute to listen to that.

MG: They're so excited to open the box and everything in the box sounds delicious. Oh, my goodness.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Yeah, exactly. I'm very happy to hear that.

MG: Take us back to the before times, in your sugar shack, in the dining hall when it's full of people and the table is groaning because there's so much food on it. What is the vibe like?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: The vibe is amazing. When we can receive people in our sugar shack, we can host in a day around 8000 people from everywhere in Quebec and they drive one hour, two hours to come to our sugar shack, eat the traditional meal, eat the poppy on the snow, and for sure then and live the experience in the sugar shack. So it's always amazing. And since last year, we are still closed. So it's very hard for the sugar shack through that province.

MG: What's your favourite thing on the menu?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: My favourite thing. Oh, my gosh, for sugar, coffee in the snow, maple syrup in the snow, it's always my favourite thing. But besides that, I really love the sea soup and all the desserts and for sure the beans. And I love everything.

MG: I think it's hard to choose. You mentioned things shut down in the spring. What was that like when the plug got pulled and everything had to shut down?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: It was very, very hard in fast because the sugar shocks, we were forced to close on March 13 last year and March 13 is always the peak of our the opening of our season. So at that date, we were ready to receive people. The fridge were full, the tables were set, and we were forced to close. So it was very, very, very hard. And we lose around 90 percent of our annual income because we were close during the season and without the 2020 first season, we were forced to do bankrupt because we don't have any income. So it's very difficult for for my sugar shack and for all the sugar shack in the province.

MG: Where did the idea for the Cabanes a la Maison project come from.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Last summer, I decided to call the other sugar shacks, so it was because I wasn't a very hard situation and I just say I need help. Maybe we can work together. And we decided to create Cabane a la Maison and that I'm involved because a marketing company called me in last September and they said to me, we want to help you. We have 400 hours to give to you for free because we don't want to lose the sugar shack. So maybe we can help you. And together we create my Cabane a la Maison. I'm not I'm evil. And right now it's a very success through the Quebec and we are very happy.

MG: We heard a little bit of it there and what Marika and her family were picking up. But what's in the box?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: In the box for sure, you have the traditional meal, the maple syrup, the coffee in the snow. But you also have a show so you can open your TV when you eat your traditional meal and you can watch a two hour virtual show with Yves Lambert, 2Freres, Guylaine Tanguay, Daniel Bucher. So it's a very nice experience that you can live with your kids at home, with your friends on Zoom and then you have the toffee in the snow that you can make by yourself and eat at home. So it's a way to leave the experience. For sure, it's not all traditional because it's at home, but it's a way to support the sugar shack if you want to go back again in the future.

MG: And you say it's been really successful, I mean, tell me about that in terms of the response from people who normally would be there in the Sugar Shack.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: When we launched Ma Cabane a la Maison, in the first day we receive a thousand of hoarders. Today we have more than eighty five thousand orders placed on the website. We have near to two million people on our website since the launching. So it's very amazing. And all the sugar shack, they are closed right now, but they all do boxes and they are happy to work. They are in their kitchen and we're going to like, keep the tradition alive with that, because without Ma Cabane a la Masion, in Quebec, we are 7400 producer of maple syrup. What the people don't understand is that in that number, we were only 200 Sugar Shack will receive people in their dining room. So we make our maple syrup, but we serve the maple syrup on the table. And since the pandemic we already lose 75 sugar shack. So it's very, very hard for us. We are less than 140 today and without Ma Cabane a la Maison I think that we were maybe 50 Sugar Shack still alive but--

MG: Wow!

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Yeah. Yeah it's very hard. But with that project we are happy and we're going to be there next year for sure.

MG: I mentioned that you're a fourth generation sugar shack owner. I mean, what is the shack meant to your family over the years?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Oh, it means everything. So like my grandfather right now, like he's not with us, but he found with his parents in the Sugar Shack in 1948, if I remember in 1948. So it was seventy five years ago. And today I worked there with my parents, with my brother, with my kids. So it means everything. So it's our business but it's our part. Also this is why we are still there, because we lose a lot of money with the pandemic. But we want to keep this alive. So it means the tradition. It means family means working outside, make the maple syrup together. It's like shared food. So it means everything for our family.

MG: You's said that in Italy they have vineyards and in Canada we have sugar shacks. What do you think is at stake if you're talking about, you know, them disappearing and people can't can't keep in business if if no one's coming into the sugar shack and you're losing 90 percent of your income. So what's at stake if we lose these sugar shacks?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: The sugar shacks in Canada is our identity, so if you think about it, there's the maple leaf on our flag, so it means everything. We have to keep this alive and. Yes, and hopefully be able to find your ear. We have Sugar Shack and for next year, this experience make us realise that. And next year we want to offer the box with the maple syrup and everything through all the Canada. And maybe like in France or in USA, we don't know because here we drink the wine of Italy. So why we don't offer this experience to them.

MG: The trees would still be producing the sap that would be boiled down into the syrup even with a pandemic going on, were you able to get out and be involved in the sugaring off season?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Yes, for sure, and this year, the fun part is that in the past, I was always in my dining room because we have 300 employees in our sugar shack and I'm responsible of the dining room and everything inside the dining room. And my father with my brother, they do the maple syrup, it's their part. It's not mine. But this year, because we are close, I was, hey, maybe I can do the maple syrup with you. I want to try this. And it was the first time that I go into the wood and I make the hole in the trees and I say, OK, that's how we do the maple syrup, because in the past I don't have enough time to go and just go outside. And it was very strange because it was a very nice day with a very nice wet weather. And I was outside with my kids and my parents and my brother. And there's no one in my sugar shack, no sound during a weekend. Where we were supposed to host 8000 people? So I was like, oh my gosh, it's very, very strange. But we live in nice moments for sure. And I'm happy, because of the pandemic, I was able to live with that for sure. I prefer when I have people in my sugar shack, but it was a funny part.

MG: You can imagine people across the country are saying, how can I get this? Do you ship the boxes outside of Quebec?

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Outside of Quebec, not really, because we are not ready for that, this year.

MG: It's a big sigh from a lot of people who you've made very hungry, I think.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: But next year for sure, we will offer this through that Canada. But this year it's only for Quebec. So the people go to the website Ma Cabane a la Maison and then, I mean, will they enter their address? And we present to them the Sugar Shack reserve their address with a grocery store, Metro, with the delivery at home or to pick up on the sugar shack and then they can place their order. So but yes, not through the Canada this year. Next year.

MG: It's a great initiative and I can't wait to be back in Sugar Shacks, hopefully by next year when this pandemic is done. In the meantime, you've done something interesting in a difficult situation. Stephanie, it's good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Thank you to you.

MG: Take care. Bye bye.

STEPHANIE LAURIN: Bye bye.

MG: Stephanie Lawrence is a sugar shack owner in Ste-Anne-des-Plaines in Quebec and the co-founder of Ma Cabane a la Maison, or home sweet home, which is getting Sugar Shack meals into people's homes.

SOUNDCLIP

Do you have a spoon?

MG: Holmes Like that, Marika Wheeler and Christian Boyle. Earlier we heard them unpacking their box and now Bon Appetite.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music in the background]

[Marika's family chatting]

VOICE 1: Makes them a little propeller's in wood, but then put them in those little streams, then form because of the snow melting there. So just carve those.

VOICE 3: Well, actually, the wooden sticks used is to--

VOICE 1: The fatty sticks?

VOICE 3: Yeah, exactly. So my father did that once he came up with the idea and it kind of became a staple.

VOICE 1: It was like a tradition for you.

[Music]

VOICE 1: We just put the toffy on the snow and you take the sticks and you look at this, you roll it around like, OK, Nicholas, this one's ready for you. Here you go. What do you think? Is it the best thing you've ever done?

[Music]

There is this, which you don't deal with at the sugar shack.

MG: It's one of the performances recorded for Ma Cabane a la Maison. Yves Lambert and Le Ziguezon. And that will do it for The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. Kings of Leon Frontmen, Caleb Followill, speaking of Tom Power about their latest album and why it is available as a non-refundable token. With luck, they will explain what a non-refundable token is for the rest of us. And that's coming up in a few moments on CBC Radio One. But now that you're in the mood for good old fashioned Sugar Shack experience, we at The Current will not leave you hanging. The food is up to you. But here's your soundtrack. You can enjoy your sugar pie or fried lard as you listen to this. That's part of the Cabane a la Maison experience by the band 2Freres. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Music]

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