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The AIH Transcript for January 20, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Ohio's former Republican governor John Kasich was happy to hear Joe Biden's focus on coming together in his inaugural address, the outspoken critic of Donald Trump tells us it's what the country and his party need to hear.

CH: A safe distance. A black prosecutor and her young daughter intended to head to the National Mall to soak up the historic inauguration before riots at the Capitol made her rethink their travel plans.

CO: Yes, she can. As a descendant of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, Reverend Robert Wright Lee says it's poetic justice that he is delivering the prayer to inaugurate groundbreaking Vice President Kamala Harris.

CH: Bound and determined. We remember UK diplomat James Cross, who survived 59 days at the centre of Canada's October crisis as a captive of the FLQ.

CO: And settled out of court. To prevent an outbreak at the Australian Open officials send dozens of players in to quarantine. Which is why Canadian tennis star Vasek Pospisil is holed up in a hotel room barely big enough to swing a racket in.

CH: And it takes a Village People song. Donald Trump ends his single chaotic term on his own singular, chaotic terms. Confusing everyone by striding off to the thumping beat of a gay anthem from the disco era. As it happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that really puts the Y in YMCA.

[Music:Theme]

Part 1: Black prosecutor felt 'hopefulness and joy' seeing Kamala Harris become U.S. vice-president

Inauguration: Kamala Harris fan

Guest: Runako Allsopp

CH: Today, US President Joe Biden addressed America's deep divisions from the Capitol balcony, the same balcony where just two weeks ago pro Trump rioters violently stormed the grounds and sent lawmakers into hiding.

JOE BIDEN: I understand that many of my fellow Americans view the future with fear and trepidation, I understand they worry about their jobs. I understand like my dad, they lay in bed, at night, staring at the ceiling, wondering can I keep my health care, can I pay my mortgage, thinking about their families, about what comes next. I promise you, I get it, [pause] but the answer is not to turn inward, to retreat into competing factions, distrusting those who don't look like you or worship the way you do or don't get their news from the same source as you do. We must end this uncivil war that pits red against blue, or rural versus urban, conservative versus liberal. We can do this if we open our souls instead of hardening our hearts, if we show a little tolerance and humility, and if we're willing to stand in the other person's shoes, as my mom would say just for a moment, stand in the shoes.

CH: U.S. President Joe Biden at his inauguration ceremony today. Before him, Kamala Harris raised her right hand and became the highest ranking female politician in American history. Here's Supreme Court Justice, Sonia Sotomayor, administering the oath to Vice President Harris.

SONIA SOTOMAYOR: That I take this obligation freely.

KAMALA HARRIS: That I take this obligation freely.

SS: Without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.

KH: Without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.

SS: That I will well and faithfully discharge.

KH: That I will well and faithfully discharge.

SS: The duties of the office on which I am about to enter.

KH: The duties of the office upon which I am about to enter.

SS: So help me God.

KH: So help me God. [crowd cheering]

CH: U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris taking her oath of office today. Runako Allsopp as a prosecutor and a big fan of Kamala Harris. She was hoping to be in Washington, D.C., with her 11 year old daughter for the inauguration. But after the riots, her plans changed. We reached Miss Allsopp at home in North Potomac, Maryland.

CO: Runako, what did it mean to you to see Vice President Kamala Harris swearing her oath on that balcony today?

RUNAKO ALLSOPP: It meant so much to me. As an African-American woman who also attended a historically black college and the same sorority, we have the same profession. It just, you know, filled my heart with just so much hopefulness and joy for this country. I've observed Kamala in Senate hearings and trials. I know she has a laser focus and she's always looking out for the underserved and underrepresented. And to know that someone is in the room making those decisions on my behalf and people who look like me, other women and other working women especially, it just gives me a lift in my spirit and a hopefulness I definitely have not had over past four years.

CO: And we mentioned that laser focus. We saw that on the balcony, didn't we? I mean, even with the mask, you could just see how dead serious she was.

RA: Oh, absolutely. And I remember hearing, she's held on the Senate, for example, to Brett Kavanaugh hearing and how she was so pointed and deliberate in her delivery and how she asked him questions. That's the kind of person I want making a decision on my behalf.

CO: You were watching, we were all watching those ceremonies on that Capitol balcony. The same one, two weeks ago, we saw hordes of pro Trump supporters just swarming those steps and that balcony breaking in, vandalising, looking for people to kill, apparently. What effect does that have on you when you consider those contrasting events?

RA: You know, just watching that event. I work on Pennsylvania Avenue, when I step out of my office and I go to lunch, I look to my right, there's the Capitol, to my left, and there's the White House. And I couldn't believe my eyes. You know, one, I couldn't believe that they didn't have the same reverence for that building and the institution that they claim to have. It was almost as though someone had broken into my own house and in addition to being frightening, obviously, that they had that kind of access to the building and that they had such nefarious intentions. To say it was unbelievable. I'm still wrap my mind around what happened.

CO: Now, your plans had been that you were going to be... you watched the inauguration from home today. You were going to be there in D.C. with your 11 year old daughter. Did that, what you saw on the Capitol Hill two weeks ago, is that part of the reason why you changed your plans?

RA: Oh, absolutely. I lived in D.C. for a long time, and once I had children, I moved to the suburbs, but we go there probably once or twice every couple of weeks just to, you know, to sightsee. But after seeing what I witnessed on TV, I didn't feel comfortable going and staying so close to where the events might happen. I don't know who's there, what their intentions are. And even if I can defend myself, I don't know if I'll be able to defend my daughter as well. And I didn't want to put her in that type of position. I didn't think it was safe.

CO: And they even found that some of the National Guardsmen were disqualified from being there, allegedly because of their sentiments, because they shared the view of those who had stormed the Capitol. So many threats, I would imagine, where in your mind.

RA: Yeah, it's so frightening and especially I'm a prosecutor. I work closely with law enforcement and you don't know how deep it goes. I don't know, have they caught everyone in law enforcement who was coordinating with these people. I couldn't, I couldn't put myself and my daughter in that situation.

CO: What impact has the past four years of Donald Trump's presidency have on you and especially on your daughter?

RA: What's hardest for me, I remember when he was first elected, the first thing I did was calculate [inaudible] my daughter would be in four years. And I said, you know, she's seven now. She'll be 11 when he leaves office. And I thought to myself, you know, hopefully during this time period, she's too young to really realise what's happening because I knew what kind of person he was. I knew he was a racist if he was divisive. But I didn't want to trickle down to school and her Summercamp and her friends. And unfortunately, it did. She did have instances at camp where they were kids walking around with Make America Great Again, hats on. Teachers who supported Donald Trump. And you could see from their social media comments that they supported this president. And it made me fearful of my child has to go to school with these people. She has to be taught by a specific teacher. And it wasn't just Donald Trump himself.

RA: It was how he impacted other people who were susceptible to his message and were looking to blame either minorities or foreigners or whoever for things that were going wrong in their own lives. So I was relieved. That's a good word. Not only happy for Biden and Harris to be elected, but relieved because I didn't want my daughter, now that she's coming into a pre-teen and teen years. I don't want her to become jaded or resentful or prejudiced against people because she felt they thought a certain way about her.

CO: But you did want to show your daughter what was changing today. You wanted to be there. What were your plans? I understand it was, you had quite an itinerary.

RA: I did, I work on Pennsylvania Avenue, and so there's a hotel across the street that I every now and then I'll go to lunch with a friend there and they have really beautiful hotel rooms and so I said, you know, me and my daughter will go and rent a hotel room and we'll go to Capitol Hill, go to outside the White House where Black Lives Matter Plaza is and maybe go to Georgetown for dessert or dinner. So obviously, those plans did not happen.

CO: And what would she have learnt about herself and about her society, her country, had she gone to that?

RA: When she was being sworn in, today, downstairs with my family, we're celebrating and hugging each other. And I said, you know, we all did this. It wasn't just black people or brown people. It was everybody, a cross-section of people came together and decided that Donald Trump was taking this country in the wrong direction. And I think for my daughter, I want her to see that there are some bad people, but they're also good people. I want her to also see that there can be someone who looks like, you know, Kamala. She's black, like my daughter. You know, she's also Caribbean. And I wanted her to see that success story. You know, Kamala dropped out of the race. We thought she was, you know, going to be a footnote history. And here she is now, the vice president. And so it's an important lesson in sort of dusting yourself off and always being prepared.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Runako, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RA: Oh, thank you. Bye bye.

CO: Bye bye.

CH: Runako Allsopp is a prosecutor in Washington, D.C. We reached her today in North Potomac, Maryland, and you can find more on her story on our Web site at CBC.ca/AIH.

Inauguration: John Kasich

Guest: John Kasich

CH: John Kasich is the former governor of Ohio. He ran against Donald Trump in the 2016 Republican primary. And last year he endorsed Joe Biden for president. We reached him in Columbus.

CO: Governor Kasich, what struck you most as you watched President Joe Biden take that oath and speak to your nation today?

JOHN KASICH: I always think about when I watch a speech like that, what is it that I would have said? And frankly, he said everything that I would have said. I thought he did a terrific job. And when I contrasted against that weird speech that we heard four years ago about American carnage, you could not have more of a contrast. I think he just did everything he could to try to get everybody in the country to listen and agree to work together. I mean, he'll have some success with that speech. And some people he will not be able to get at this point. But we'll see how it goes moving forward.

CO: And I guess the central theme, if there was a headline from it, is that we must end this uncivil war that pits one side against another. He is aiming at least some of that at Republicans. We know he wants to appeal to them. He wants to work with that side of the house. But at the same time, a significant number of congresspeople won't even publicly recognise him as the president. What success will he have?

JK: Well, you know, in politics, as a leader, you have to be patient and not lose your temper. And a lot of it is going to depend on his patience, his willingness to compromise. He can't have everything he wants and the ability to Republicans, to recognise that he is the President of the United States. And with that goes certain things that I think are fundamentally kind of owed to him. I can remember, when I was governor of Ohio, I had a speaker of the House that was kind of at odds with me on one very important measure. And at one point he just looked at me and he said, you know, you're the governor and if you want it, I think you have a right to get it. And I think to some degree, Republicans have to recognise that [inaudible] coequal equal branches. But, you know, he's in a position where he's, you know, he won the election. He's the President of United States, and he's owed some significant degree of cooperation. If the Republicans don't want to go along with him. OK, well, then make it on the merits. Have your alternatives. Just don't stand in the weeds and throw stones, come up with an intellectual argument and an alternative, and then we've got to see how it all plays out. I don't start this being pessimistic, you know, because it's so close in both houses. And there they may find themselves at some point needing to have some level of cooperation.

CO: So I don't want to be the pessimist here. But how likely is what you're describing, given that not only do they not recognise him as president, but there are those in Congress who supported what we saw two weeks ago, which was the storming of your congressional building. So what's the likelihood of that?

JK: Yeah, I'm not sure that there were really any in the Congress, I don't know, maybe a couple. I don't know of them specifically who would support that. Most people were horrified by it, regardless of who they were and the actions on that fateful day. I have no doubt have changed the minds of a number of Republicans. And in terms of them not recognising him, you know, that was before and this is today. So I'm not here to sugarcoat anything. I'm just here to tell you the way I see it. I think the speech was one where he reached out. I think there's certain things that he said we can't tolerate like lies or, you know, fake news or any of that, other kinds of things. But I think it's one of my friends who was not for Biden, a staunch Republican, sent me a text today, a simple text that says, he sure has a good heart and that it will go a long way. I'm not saying it's magic, but I'm not sitting here today saying all is lost because we've got a few knuckle or some degree or some number of knuckleheads in the Republican Party.

CO: All right. I'm asking you a lot of questions about Republicans because you are or were one.

[overlapping words]

JK: I am. But I'm an American before I'm a Republican. You know, the Republican Party has always been my vehicle and never my master. And I'm independent as I actually went to the Democratic convention and spoke on behalf of Joe Biden. And somebody asked me, well, what are you going to do now? I said I'm going to call them like I see them.

CO: But as you were involved with the Democrats at that convention elsewhere, another question about how divided Democrats are. I mean, there are those who see...

JK: Yes.

CO: In Congress who see Joe Biden as the establishment man, a person who is going to go back to business as usual, that the system that many believe gave Trump populism at its edge. And so how united are those Democrats?

JK: Well, they're going to have an internal struggle too. We know that, the progressives want to move fast, they have a lot of energy, they are gaining power not just at the federal level, but they're gaining power at the state and the local level. I think their basic ideas are out of touch with the country. I think the country is basically just like I believe in Canada, centre right and centre left. I don't think that extremes work in either of our nations, but they're a force to be reckoned with and it's a force that Joe Biden is going to have to deal with because the numbers are so close in both the House and Senate. If they start losing significant numbers of Democrats, they've got a problem. I mean, this is not going to be easy for him to do. But there's things that if he does this right, around the issue of the pandemic, if he deals with the issue of [pause] deals with the issue of infrastructure, you know, he's likely to meet with some success once he gets into immigration reform. It's tougher. It's a tough road. We just got to see how he unveils this agenda and what things he can do with executive orders that can accomplish a lot like the return to the Paris accord, focussing more on all issues around the environment. These are things that some of which he can do unilaterally.

CO: Do you think it's likely that he'll reverse this decision to cancel the Keystone XL pipeline?

JK: I do not. I think that that's just going to that's no, I don't think he will reverse that. I do not.

CO: What do you think? Republicans like yourself, what do they want to see Mr. Biden do as a priority?

JK: Well, I want him to be moderate. I want him to be measured in what he moves forward with. I don't want him to be spending money and putting us further. You know, the Republicans did a great job of putting us deep in the hole. And I don't want them to put us any deeper in the hole. And I think he's got to be very considerate in terms of what he's going to do with taxes. But, you know, what I really want him to do is to be Joe Biden. He's a centrist guy, and be willing to listen.

CO: We'll leave it there. Governor Kasich, thank you.

JK: Thank you very much. All the best.

CO: Thank you.

CH: That was the former governor of Ohio, John Kasich, in Columbus.

Inauguration: Reverend Robert Wright Lee

Guest: Rev. Robert Wright Lee

CH: Prayer services are a staple of any U.S. presidential inauguration. But given the pandemic and the deep divisions in the country, leading that service was a big job, in 2021. Reverend Robert Wright Lee was up to the task. The North Carolina preacher helped organise a virtual inaugural prayer services this year. He's a curious choice given his ancestry. Reverend Lee is the great, great, great, great nephew of Confederate general and slave owner Robert E. Lee. We reached Reverend Lee in Charlotte, North Carolina.

CO: Reverend Lee, we've got you before the inauguration has begun. Are you nervous about how your prayer will be received?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: You know, if I'm nervous about anything, I'm nervous for the countless Americans and indeed people across this world who are still suffering from covid, who are afraid of insurrection and violence brought on by white supremacists and people who wish this country in our world ill. So if I'm nervous about anything it's not so much that the prayer would be heard or that the prayer would be well received, but instead that that it might be useful in a time where division is so, so widespread.

CO: And so what is the message that you're hoping to send to Americans with your prayer?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: Well, look, we have had four years of chaos and confusion and discord. And for me, as a Christian pastor, I believe that God has called us to this moment of being better, of doing better, of tuning in to our better angels. And so in this moment, it's important for us to hear not only that, but to also pray for our leaders. You know, many times we don't associate some progressive values with faithfulness in terms of people going to church or anything. We much more associate that in the United States with the evangelical church. But for me, as a progressive Christian pastor, it is evident that President Joe Biden is one of the most faithful man I've ever encountered and his family is so faithful and full of good people.

CO: Your name, Robert Wright Lee, you are a descendant of the Confederate General, Robert E. Lee. What is the significance? You believe that you have been asked to deliver this prayer for America's first black vice president?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: Well, it's not lost on me, to be clear. And, you know, yesterday when it was announced, was actually Robert E. Lee's birthday. He was born in 1807. On January 19th, hundreds of years later, another Robert Lee, a descendant of that same Lee, same Confederate general, was announced that he would pray God's [inaudible] providence on the first black vice president. And it's not lost on me. It is humbling, but it's also redemptive. There's a lot of stuff, good stuff bound up in this moment. And I'm honoured to play a small part.

CO: You have written elsewhere that you grew up with belief in the right, the rightness of those views of Robert E. Lee. You had a Confederate flag in your bedroom. You said that you didn't get it for some time. Clearly now you do. After what we've seen in these past weeks, as especially on January 6th when white supremacists helped to storm the Capitol. What is the significance right now of what you want to say?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: I think the significance of what I want to say in my own personal kind of particularity is that if I, the descendant of slave owners, people who fought to enslave black people on this continent, can change and embrace an agenda and a policy that is built on equality and justice, then everyone can. It's not beyond the reach of people who are protesting now, who are confused and scared now. And while I don't condone any of their actions, I do have some sort of empathy. But I do think in all of this we can find our better selves.

CO: You know, that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are going to face a Congress that is deeply divided, that there are large numbers of congress people who supported what happened on January six, who are still calling for many of the things that you'd like to believe were lost generations ago, but have obviously not been. How difficult do you think it will be for President Biden to try and unite your country?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: Well, President Biden certainly has his work cut out for him. And he comes to the presidency in a moment in which our country is more divided than it had been in a lifetime. One of the things that we have to do is continue to encourage them to be themselves, because themselves, who they are, who vice president elect Kamala Harris and who President elect Joe Biden are, are people of great character, of great strength, with great courage. I know that this country's success is not bound up in the Democratic Party. It is bound up in an agenda that is both bent towards Republican success and Democrat success. You know, I hope that both parties will find a way to move forward. One of the most striking examples of that that I've already seen even this morning on Inauguration Day was when Mitch McConnell, the leader in the Senate of the Republicans, joined Joe Biden at President elect Biden's invitation to attend church. You know, I am just honoured and thrilled that we have a president, a world leader now who instead of tweeting at moments of national [inaudible] goes to church. And that's not to say that there isn't room for Secularism and other faith, it's just nice to see that he's exercising his own faith instead of being so busy to tweet.

CO: And Joe Biden was saying last night and today that how dark this period is, that there's a darkness. But do you feel that darkness or do you feel that after these past four years that maybe some of that darkness has lifted, you might feel lighter?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: You know, one of the resounding scriptures that keeps coming to mind, in my mind today is from the Psalms, "sorrow may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning". I don't know what this is. I don't know if this is the end of white supremacist insurrections or if there's more to come. I don't know what this pandemic will continue to bring, but I do know that for this moment there is a peculiar sense of hope that many of us have not felt in four years.

CO: Are you a bit disappointed that you won't be in Washington today?

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: You know, I'm disappointed that I won't be in D.C. today. I actually had plans earlier to attend before this whole thing kind of fell apart with insurrection and even more covid death, which we certainly acknowledge. I think I'm in the right place here in North Carolina. I am sad that I won't be there, but I look forward to many more opportunities to continue to serve the administration through my ministry to the Biden's.

CO: Well, Reverend Lee, we look forward to hearing your prayer as well. And thank you for speaking with us.

ROBERT WRIGHT LEE: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Reverend Robert Wright Lee is a preacher and the great, great, great, great nephew of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. He's in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Inauguration: Amanda Gorman

Guest: Amanda Gorman

CH: The inauguration also featured performances by some pretty big names, such as Lady Gaga, Jennifer Lopez and Garth Brooks. But it was Amanda Gorman who really got people talking. The 22 year old is the youngest inaugural poet in history. She wrote a piece called The Hill We Climb, composed in a burst of inspiration after rioters stormed the building she stood in front of today.

AMANDA GORMAN: We've seen a force that would shatter our nation rather than share it. Would destroy our country if it meant delaying democracy. And this effort very nearly succeeded. But while democracy can be periodically delayed, it can never be permanently defeated. In this truth, in this faith, we trust. For a while we have our eyes on the future. History has its eyes on us. This is the era of just redemption. We feared that at its inception we did not feel prepared to be the heirs of such a terrifying hour. But within it we found the power to author a new chapter to offer hope and laughter to ourselves. So while once we asked how could we possibly prevail over catastrophe, now we assert how could catastrophe possibly prevail over us? We will not march back to what was, but move to what shall be a country that is bruised but whole, benevolence, but bold, fierce and free. We will not be turned around or interrupted by intimidation because we know our inaction and inertia will be the inheritance of the next generation. Our blunders become their burdens. But one thing is certain. If we merged mercy with might and might with rights, then love becomes our legacy and change our children's birthright. So let us leave behind a country better than the one we were left with. Every breath of my bronze-pounded chest. We will raise this wounded world into a wondrous one. We will rise from the gold limned hills of the West. We will rise from the windswept northeast where our forefathers first realised revolution. We will rise from the lake rim cities of the Midwestern states. We will rise from the sun baked south. We will rebuild, reconcile and recover. And every known nook over a nation in every corner called our country. Our people, diverse and beautiful, will emerge battered and beautiful. When day comes, we step out of the shade aflame and unafraid the new dawn blooms as we free it. For there was always light. If only we're brave enough to see it. If only we're brave enough to be it.[loud clapping]

CH: Inaugural poet Amanda Gorman reading from her poem The Hill We Climb, today.

[Music: guitar and whistling]

Part 2: James cross Obit

James Cross Obit

Guest: John Stringer

CH: Covid-19 has claimed one of the central figures of the October crisis, James Cross, the UK trade commissioner who was kidnapped by the FLQ in 1970, has died at the age of 99. In a moment, we'll hear from Mr Cross' son in law. But first, here is James Cross, speaking with Anna Maria Tremonti, former host of The Current on the fortieth anniversary of the kidnapping.

JAMES CROSS: I was wondering, between the bedroom and the bathroom, half dressed, when a man came through the door and pointed a gun at me and said, get down on the floor or you will be f-ing dead. They ripped the phone in the bedroom, out of its socket and told my wife not to contact the police for an hour. She said, you must let me say goodbye to my wife, to my husband, and allowed her to come across to say goodbye to me and they took me out of me down the stairs. Where, that was another man with a gun standing by the door. And we went out into the streets where there was a taxi with the fourth man driving it and I was pushed into the back of the taxi and taken away.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And what were those days like [pause] with them?

JAMES CROSS: Well, I wasn't abused or beaten or anything, but I mean, I was under sentence of death if you'd like, like for 59 days, which was extremely stressful. I didn't get a great deal to eat. So I lost 22 pounds. And of course, the whole time there was the constant worry as to what was going to happen, particularly after Laporte was killed.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: So how would you describe your feelings toward Lacto and the others who kidnapped you today?

JAMES CROSS: Well, I still hate them for what they did to me and my family.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Do you consider them to be terrorists?

JAMES CROSS: Oh, how else would you describe it? I can't think of any other word.

CH: That was former UK Trade Commissioner James Cross speaking with Anna Maria Tremonti, the former host of CBC Radio's The Current in October 2010. James Cross died earlier this month of covid-19. John Stringer was Mr. Cross' son in law and nursed him to the end. We reached Mr. Stringer in Chichester, England.

CO: Mr. Stringer, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

JOHN STRINGER: Thank you.

co: I'm sure that hearing your father in law hearing James Cross is striking for you, emotional for you. What do you make of what he has to say? Have you heard him tell the story before.

JS: I've heard him talk about the events. I mean, he never really broached the subject himself, but he was quite happy to talk about it, if somebody else brought the matter up or somebody who just discovered this fact of his life, wanted to know more about it. And I mean what he said there, he never really expressed animosity towards these kidnappers, but he never condoned them. But he never, ever expressed those kind of sentiments within the conversation in his family and that he never dwelled on the matter. So I think that's how he felt about them. But then he put it away in a box, so to speak, and he never changed his opinion of them. But he didn't allow it to eat into the rest of his life and his enjoyment of his life because he thoroughly enjoyed life thereafter. He enjoyed his food, his wine, his going to the theatre and socialising with his friends and just making as much of this second life as he could.

CO: Did he see it as a second life?

JS: I think so. His coming through the kidnappings, that part of it kind of ended one part of his life. And as soon as he retired, he kind of just devoted himself to enjoying life. He just wanted to kind of be with his family and make the most of all the pleasures that he enjoyed.

CO: There's a photo of your father in law, James Cross, looking unflappable during the kidnapping. Even though he is apparently sitting on boxes of dynamite that were a constant threat to his life. And many have said that, the fact that he was so unflappable that he kept calm with the kidnappers, he engaged them. That it was because of that that he actually may have survived this. Does that speak to the man you know?

JS: It certainly does. Yes. He was a very phlegmatic man, very even souled man. above all he was just a man who had based his life on reason. So, you know, he understood people's motives and he understood their motives. And he was born in Tipperary in Ireland, and he understood a young person's kind of revolutionary spirit and wanting to achieve political ends through direct action. It's just that he didn't agree with the principle of it.

He understood it. Harming innocent people was not the deal for him. You had to work through political ends, which takes longer, of course, but it's more lasting. And hopefully it doesn't harm as many people.

CO: For Canadians as James Cross is an historic figure, a symbolic figure. But for you, he is your father in law. He is the man, you nursed him to the end. I'm just wondering, how will you remember him as a man?

JS: Just a thoroughly, thoroughly decent man, he just lived decently and treated people so decently. It's hard to believe that anybody could be so decent. I mean, he was kind, generous, and as I say, very, very, very even handed. He would understand other people's points of view and he would try to get them to understand his point of view. And he never got angry. I think partly that was part of his survival, that he just put things in perspective, life in perspective. There's just no point in getting angry about things. And so full of life, enjoyed life so much. I enjoyed his family and his friends and he loved scaffolding and meeting people. And I've just missed him an awful lot.

CO: He died of covid-19, and you were with him right to the end. Can I ask after your own health?

JS: Well, I have contracted, just the after effects of it because I was in close proximity to him for the last couple of weeks. And so I'm just getting the spins and slightly out of breath and coming out of it myself now, [inaudible] over the worst of it. But he died at home because the National Health Service in England is overwhelmed at the moment with covid patients. And given his age and it was, his doctors decided that he would be better off at home rather than subject to hospitals because he wouldn't be guaranteed immediate access to a hospital bed. So he'd be in an ambulance or hospital corridors for a while. So it was best given his condition that he'd be better off at home.

CO: Mr. Stringer, I'm glad you were with your father in law, and I really appreciate you telling us about James Cross today. Thank you.

JS: Thank you. Thank you very much for calling.

CH: John Stringer was the son in law of James Cross. We reached him in Chichester, England. Mr. Cross, the UK trade commissioner kidnapped by the FLQ in 1970, has died of covid-19. He was 99 years old.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Australia tennis quarantine

Guest: Vasek Pospisil

CH: Tennis' first grand slam event of the year has been slammed by covid-19. The Australian Open is set to begin in 19 days and at the moment, more than 70 players and members of their entourages are holed up in hotel rooms there under a strict two week quarantine after passengers on the chartered flights that brought them to the open contracted covid. Everyone exposed to those positive cases is in self isolation, and that includes British Columbia tennis champ Vasek Pospisil. Mr. Pospisil Is now entering day six of quarantine and training in a very confined space. We reached him in his hotel room in Melbourne, Australia.

CO: Vasek, you are now a few days into your quarantine. How are you keeping yourself busy and in shape?

VASEK POSPISIL: Yeah, it's been tough. I'm staying busy, surprisingly. I'm doing tons of calls and reading books. I've started a Start-Up company recently, so that's been keeping me busy. And obviously, I'm trying to stay fit somehow. I mean, that's definitely the biggest challenge. I'm just trying to do a tenis of specific training in here is not easy. And my fitness trainer has sent some sessions for me to do, which, you know, just trying to adapt and hopefully stay fit somehow.

CO: There are more than 70 players and staff who are now in this quarantine. Are you hearing a lot of tennis balls being slammed against hotel room walls around you?

VP: It's funny, right around midday, you just, you hear a lot of stomping, like a lot of stomping. I think I have a few neighbours that are in lockdown as well with me [inaudible] lockdown because it's almost like clockwork every day around noon, there's just, you just hear a lot of footsteps for about 45 minutes. So everyone's doing something.[chuckling]

CO: Well, I saw one actually hitting balls against the window or the wall and in the room just to keep the arm in shape.

VP: I know. I saw that. I wish I had that much space in my room. [chuckling] I can't. I have a little bit of space in my room, but not enough to hit balls around, unfortunately. [more chuckling]

CO: OK, so the room is that small. And you said there may be people around you also under quarantine. So you have no contact with anybody else?

VP: That's right. Yeah, I've had no contact. I mean, yeah, I can't leave the room or anything. I can, I can only open the door for, you know, grabbing food or getting tested, but I can actually step foot into the hallway. And also unfortunately, my window doesn't open. I had a bit of a headache yesterday. I don't know if it's that, but that was the other thing. It's just just the fresh air. You know, even just having a window would be nice. But I'm coping and dealing with it.

CO: All right. And all of this is because you were on a flight with someone who tested positive for covid-19. There were some cases of that. And now everyone who were on those planes is now under quarantine. Is that right?

VP: That's exactly right. Yeah, that's what happened, there were 17 charter flights for the players and staff and three of them had active positive cases. I was on one of those planes.

CO: And you're healthy, otherwise? I should ask you that you're testing negative for each of these sessions?

VP: Yes, I've had five negative tests now. I think I'm getting tested every day for four or five negative up to this point.

CO: Now, when I asked you about how the conditions are, you're in your tiny room. You were very careful not to complain. But as you know, some of the tennis players have been complaining. And it's not going over well in Australia, is it?

VP: It's a tough situation for sure. Obviously, there's you know, if there's a few that complain about food or are complaining about something, then then obviously that doesn't go over very well. I think the frustration that everyone shares is more on the side of, you know, just not being able to be at the same level playing field with with the other players, the ones that can leave the room, but then coming out and actually having to compete against, you know, guys that that that are able to train and prepare for these two weeks is tough as an athlete.

CO: But you know that that tennis already has a reputation for being a bit precious and entitled. And so when you have top seated players like Novak Djokovic, who submitted a list of demands for better food, he wanted access to mansions where people had private tennis courts, so he could practise and wanted fewer restrictions. People in Melbourne have been going through hell in Australia with the shut downs, the lockdown's they've had. So what would you say to Mr. Djokovic, if you could?

VP: I think in that case it might have been taken a little bit out of context, because I mean, I think what Novak was, was doing there was you know, it wasn't a list of demands. I know that that was one thing that was being reported widely. But, you know, it was more like a list of suggestions. I mean, Novak, what he was doing there was he was just trying to see if there was any way to create bubbles within bubbles or something where the players that are in hard lock down, the seventy two players have the ability to at least prepare a little bit for for the event, the same way that the other players are able to. Right. So I think more than anything, it wasn't even, you know, a list of demands more than than him, you know, trying to explore options for those that are in lockdown, because obviously he's in an environment where he has very good treatment with a couple other guys there. So I don't think it was so much for for himself. I think it was more trying to see if there was something that Tennis Australia could do that could help those kind of level the playing field a little bit with the other players. And obviously, I think he's. [interupted].

CO: That's a generous take. But so I'm sure he appreciates your defence, but there are at least ten people associated with the tournament. Who have tested positive, so, I mean, there are those who are saying that perhaps the Australian Open should have been cancelled, what do you say to that?

VP: I think public safety is the number one most important thing. So, I mean, I personally would not have a problem at all to fly home after I finish my 14, day quarantine, if that's what, you know, the health minister and the public prefer, then I'm more than happy to do that.

CO: And especially since when you do play, you play at such a disadvantage, you and the others who have been locked in tiny rooms for two weeks.

VP: But even if I wasn't locked in, I mean, I don't think it looks good on the sport right now. Like there's a lot of negative press around tennis and the players which doesn't help our cause. And I mean, I like to think that maybe, you know, maybe there are a lot of people that want to watch tennis or, you know, otherwise. I struggle to see how it even was able to go forward, because obviously in a global pandemic, to even pull this off and create a huge event like this, you know, must mean there's there's a lot of interest behind it, at least from the government's perspective.

CO: Yeah, well, I hope you don't go crazy in that tiny room. Have you got your maple syrup with you? I understand that's your energy drink.

VP: Always.

CO: Good for you.

VP: I always, I always have my maple syrup. But I'm running low and a little nervous about that. If I run out last couple of days. I'll go crazy.

CO: OK, well I hope that doesn't happen. It's good to talk to you. Thanks.

VP: Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

CO: Bye.

VP: Bye.

CH: That was B.C. born tennis champ Vasek Pospisil. He's in the midst of a 14 day quarantine in Australia. We reached him in his hotel room in Melbourne.

[Music: Pop music]

CH: Okay, sure. And obviously, YMCA is a great song, but what does Donald Trump think it's about? Is he telling his supporters there's no need to feel down or does he think of himself as the young man who should pick himself off the ground? Also, does the guy whose administration did everything it could to weaken LGBTQ rights not know that YMCA is a gay anthem? [pause] Probably not. Doesn't seem like Mr. Trump is really a lyrics guy. Never even did the arm gestures. Just seems to like the sound, which means loving YMCA is really the only sense in which he could be considered a man of letters.

[Music: upbeat piano and violin]

Part 3: U.S. pardons

U.S. pardons

Guest: Margaret Love

CH: In his final hours as president, Donald Trump leveraged his pardon power to help out a slew of people, including his former chief strategist, Steve Bannon. The list of more than 140 pardons also included rap performer Lil Wayne and former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and several allies of Mr. Trump and his family. And as you'd expect, the last minute actions have angered Mr. Trump's critics. Margaret Love is a pardon lawyer who served under Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. She's now in private practice and we reached her in Washington, D.C.

CO: Ms. Love, you know, this is not unusual for a U.S. President to end his last day with a flurry of pardons was Mr. Trump's much different?

MARGARET LOVE: Well, they were different, you know, the end of term pardons is a fairly recent phenomenon that really didn't start until Bill Clinton and George W. did not have end of term pardons. Obama did, but it was a continuation of a program that he had going for a couple of years that had geared up at the end. So Trump's end of term pardons were pretty different. For one thing, he did not use the regular pardon process through the Department of Justice. He had his own way of choosing cases. He did that throughout his tenure. And at the end in the last year, I think he had a whole separate vetting process that was set up within the White House to choose cases. And they accepted recommendations from a variety of people who were pretty well plugged in and who knew people. So it was a different kind of process that produced those last 149 grants.

CO: And just about that, some of the names are known and actually expected, like Steve Bannon, the former chief adviser to Mr. Trump. But they were also rappers like Lil Wayne and Kodak Black that people might know. But aside from those, a lot of them, we don't know who they are. Give us a sense of what names, which cases stood out for you?

ML: Yeah, well, a couple of my clients stood out, that was one thing, though, that was nice, but it was a pretty mixed bag. To tell you the truth, I have not studied all 149. I know that there were perhaps 18 or 20 cases of commutation of sentence, prisoner cases that came from the Department of Justice out of 149. That's not very many. But I believe that there are a number involving politicians, a number of people serving very long sentences, and it's just a very mixed bag.

CO: And where are they? For the most part, people with good connexions and deep pockets?

Well, I would say probably if for the most part means more than half. Yes, I would say that's probably true. And the White House write up will say if they have, usually say if they have well-connected advisers or recommenders, whatever, it was one very interesting grant that stuck out for me. There's an Israeli fellow, Aviem Sella, who actually was one of Jonathan Pollard's handlers in his espionage effort. And I was amazed to see that in the write up and said that Netanyahu had asked President Trump to pardon him. He was not charged. He had never been convicted of anything. But I know that there were outstanding indictments, sealed indictments that had been around for decades here in D.C. that kept him from travelling. So that was a very unusual grant. And there have been other unusual grants. I mean, for example, you mentioned Lil Wayne. Well, he hadn't even been sentenced. This was a use of the power that was extremely unusual.

CO: Now, on the subject of some highly unusual choices, apparently, we were told by New York Times is that the former president was talked out of giving preemptive pardons to his family, to his kids and in-laws, and even perhaps even to himself.

ML: Yes. Yes, I believe that's true. In fact, I posted a piece yesterday on the Lawfare national security blog about precisely that and whether it would be constitutional for the president to grant preemptive pardons. In other words, pardons to people who have not even been charged with a crime. Pardons that don't make any mention of what crime he might be pardoning. So that's quite apart from other objections to the self pardon. But I think this idea of a preemptive pardon, which really has only been done once in our history, and that is the pardon of Nixon, President Nixon was pardoned by President Ford for any crimes that might have been committed during his presidency. That pardon was never challenged, but many people think it could have been.

CO: Right, now all of this, as you and others have said, screams for reform to this pardon process, this clemency that presidents have at the end. What would you like to see done differently now that your country is quite attended to this?

ML: Yeah, well, that's really one of the saving graces or the blessing in disguise, is that the public is paying attention to how the pardon process works. It is also paying attention to how the idea of pardon work. And that is what I think we really need to have a conversation about, there are lots of recommendations floating around about how the process should be changed, and I have no doubt that, that's right. But I don't think that you can talk about changing the process until you really talk about, how do we want this power used. And there is a lot that Congress could do to reroute some of the business that now pours into the pardon attorney's office, people who just want their firearms rights restored. That's my classic example of something that's just absurd, that the only place that people with federal felony convictions, even if they're non-violent and took place 30 years ago, they cannot ever go hunting again. And this is probably represents half the pardon caseload is people who want their firearms rights restored. That's ridiculous to have the president be the only way that you can get your gun rights back. So that's the kind of law reform that I would say ought to take place to offload, if you will, some of the business, just the routine restoration of rights and sort of improve your employment prospects.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Ms. Love, thank you.

ML: You're very welcome.

CO: Bye.

ML: Thank you. Bye.

CH: Margaret Love is a pardon lawyer. She was in Washington, D.C.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

CO: I mean, I hope you get to see your mom real soon.

MM: I hope so too.

CO: Take care.

MM: Take care. Bye.

CH: Mina Mahdavi is an Iranian Canadian cybersecurity engineer living in the U.S. We reached her in Campbell, California.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

[Music: Elevator music]

Mary Catherine Bateson

CH: You would think the daughter of famed anthropologist parents, Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson would have spent her childhood in the field, but Mary Catherine Bateson grew up in her native New York City, which did not mean her upbringing wasn't tinged by her parents ethnographic tendencies. Her birth was filmed. Her infancy was coloured by constant consultation with paediatrician Benjamin Spock. And according to The New York Times, her mother once told her she had no right to throw out her own childhood artwork because, like anything, it was an artifact. Mary Catherine Bateson died this month. She was 81 years old. She was a cultural anthropologist herself who wrote a book about her parents, of course, and her 1989 treatise, Composing a Life, was a favourite amongst high profile women like Jane Fonda and Hillary Clinton. A few years before its publication she spoke with CBC's Variety Tonight about mother daughter relationships and about why her own mother kept her at home when she resumed fieldwork after the Second World War.

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: It's one thing to go to the field with a very small child, as I have done with my daughter when she was two, because a small child helps establish rapport with other women. Yes, but to go to the field with an adolescent isn't something that I would particularly recommend. Adolescents are so busy working out who they are that they're not at the ideal moment to try and become involved in totally different life ways.

VICKI GABEREAU: Boy, are you right about that one. Your child's name is Vanney? That's what you call her.

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: That's right. She's 14.

VG: I wonder, you know, most women will say that when they get to the discipline stage with a child, or especially in adolescence, that they can hear their mothers talking through themselves, that they can hear things that their mothers said to them. Do you find yourself saying things that your mother said to you?

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: Yes, that's interesting. I do. One of the things I remember very vividly was my mother talking about best friends.

VG: Mm hmm.

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: I got to the stage where everybody was running around with best friends very exclusively. And I remember my mother saying, you know, you may like a particular person very much, but that doesn't mean you have to like them exclusively and you can have more than one friend at a time. I remember saying that to Vanney when she began to deal at nine and 10 years old with with the best friend syndrome.

VG: Where they're so exclusive.

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: That's right.

VG: I love the story of the two of you with your long hair and how your mother was so [pause], spent such painstaking hours combing out your long hair and getting the nots and the tangles out and your poor father just had to give up. [laughter]

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: Just couldn't manage it.

VG: No. I guess, does your child have long hair?

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: You know, the world is different now. We have hair rinses.

VG: Oh, of course it doesn't hurt anymore, does it?

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: All of that's that easy now?

VG: It's too bad because you do talk about what touching times that were and how you loved it when your mother combed your hair.

MARY CATHERINE BATESON: Well, that's true. They were times for conversation. You know, very often I think one of the things that women discover around the world is that in situations where your hands are busy, you can have particular kinds of conversation. So the kinds of conversation that sometimes women have had shelling peas or weaving, we had while my mother was untangling my hair.

CH: Cultural anthropologist Mary Catherine Bateson speaking with the CBC's Vicki Gabereau in 1984. Ms. Bateson died this month. She was 81.

[Music: Bongo instrumental]

CO: Max, just to be clear, when you say that you did the longest manual, so people don't think you've actually written a very long guide to bicycle maintenance. That's not what it means, right?

MAX GANAKOVSKY: Yes. So what a manual essentially is, is coasting on the back wheel of the bike without the added propulsion of pedalling. So, yes, it's a bit different from like a manual for a bike for sure. [chuckles] So, yeah.

CO: Right, but it's not a wheelie because it may be people...Well, I've seen it looks kind of like you're doing a wheelie.

MG: Yeah. So the difference between a wheelie and the manual is that in a wheelie you have the added propulsion of peddling during the attempt, but then in the manual it's just, so you pedal as hard as you can take off and you don't have the assistance of added propulsion of pedalling.

CO: All right. We just heard you in a little clip there. You when you learnt that you had completed a world record breaking bike manual, maybe just describe what you were doing to achieve that. How do you do that?

MG: Yes. So what's going on? So at the beginning of the video, there is about 100, 100 metres of road ahead and I'm sprinting in order to make sure I get enough propulsion for the actual attempt. And after that, it's essentially autopilot. Just make sure to keep your balance and just make sure to not make any mistakes. And yeah, the hardest part during the attempt was for sure the burning sensation in my legs in the end, because I was manualing for about two minutes straight. So it was very taxing on the legs. But other than that, that's that's basically what I did during the attempt.

CO: But you're not pedalling at all. You're just holding the bike up as it slowly comes to a stop. But you're doing something with your butt. You're kind of wiggling it. Are you propelling yourself that way or what?

MG: Yeah. So the wiggling of my butt is just kind of to centre myself because in the manual you're not really centred at all on the bike. So just adjusting my butt constantly is just kind of me making sure I'm balanced and I'm stable during the manual.

CO: The previous record was 339 metres. So at 648, you didn't just beat the record, you crushed it. How does that feel?

MG: It feels good because, you know, I've I've looked up to that guy like who beat the record. And I always thought that, yes, his record is cool, but I think I could exceed it. So, yeah, I'm happy to do it and I'm happy to do it in a good fashion and beating it by a lot.

CO: And so, but I understand this was your second attempt. What happened the first time?

MG: Yes. So I did both attempts on the same day. And so the first attempt was actually going pretty well. But I stopped at 500 metres for my first attempt and I was actually planning to call it a day there. But then we didn't document the video correctly on my first attempt and the video got messed up. So I had to redo it a second time. But that was kind of a blessing in disguise because I actually ended up going a lot further and got six hundred forty eight point three metres.

CO: Wow.

MG: Yeah, I'm happy that the video got messed up, the first attempt.

CO: When you say the video got messed up. Your dad messed up, right?

MG: Yeah. [Laughter] So my dad was videoing, but the driver was going a bit too fast, so then they were ahead of me. And that's kind of what makes the video up.

CO: So what goes into training for something like this?

MG: Yeah, so for me it was a long process. So I'm a BMX racer originally training for years now and I'm just happy I could show the world what I'm capable of. The leading up to the event, it was different because of covid. My whole race season got cancelled. I was qualified for world championships and many national events. But since they didn't happen, this was kind of the event. I thought that would make up for it in such a weird year.

CO: Now you are 16 years old, so what comes next for you?

MG: Yes. So for me, this was kind of like a mini milestone in my athletic journey. And I really wanted to do this, not only show the world what I'm capable of, but also support my local club, Calgary BMX, essentially get enough sponsors to build an eight metre starting hill, which is crucial for the club. Since, in the Olympics, BMX is on an eight metre hill. And then I really wanted this to be part of my journey and an end goal of making it to the Olympics one day and representing Canada at the highest stage.

CO: All right. Congratulations, Max.

MG: Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me.

CO: Good luck to you.

MG: Thank you.

CH: 16 year old Max Ganakovsky just beat the world record for longest wheelie without pedaling, which is a manual. We reached him in Calgary and were still trying to wrap our heads around exactly how he did it.

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January 20, 2021 Episode Transcript

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