Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2021

The Current Transcript for January 18, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

NALO HOPKINSON: I knew that I represent a lot to people who didn't think they could do what I'm doing. People from marginalized experiences, like I am, feel that they they cannot make their voices heard.

MATT GALLOWAY: When the Canadian science fiction author Nalo Hopkinson was growing up, she never saw herself in the stories that she was reading. Now, Nalo Hopkinson is the first woman of colour to be given a lifetime achievement award from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. In an hour, she's here to talk about inspiring a new generation of writers. And anticipating a pandemic. In the midst of these Indore times, whether you are a famous writer, or just a fan stuck at home reading their work, a shared experience is that of feeling lonely.

MAN: I saw a picture of a cat on Twitter that look like an Edward Hopper painting. And then I kind of looked around and thought, I feel like an Edward Hopper painting. I bet a lot of us feel like Edward Hopper paintings right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hopper's iconic painting of three people sitting quietly at the counter in a nearly empty diner has become a symbol of isolation for many people these days. In 30 minutes, and look at the real effect of loneliness on our mental health. And how some people are learning to cope on their own. We begin, though, in Russia with the return of Vladimir Putin's political arch enemy fresh off a near deadly poisoning, and landing straight into the arms of police. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

Poisoned Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny returns to a Moscow jail cel

Guests: Vladimir Kara-Murza, Catherine Belton

ALEXEI NAVALNY [Speaking: Russian].

MATT GALLOWAY: There's nothing to fear but fear itself. Quite a statement from Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, considering what he's been through. The vocal critic of President Vladimir Putin was poisoned last year. But after months of medical treatment in Germany, this week, he returned home to Moscow, only to be immediately arrested. Alexei Navalny remains in detention despite international calls for his release. Vladimir Kara-Murza is a Russian opposition politician and a pro-democracy advocate. He also survived poisoning. He is vice president of the Free Russia Foundation, a U.S.-based non-profit to fight repression in Russia. Vladimir Kara-Murza, good morning.

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Good morning, Matt. Good to be on your program.

MATT GALLOWAY: Great to have you here. When you saw Alexei Navalny step off that plane in Moscow and immediately was surrounded by Russian officials and then escorted away, what was going through your mind?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, I knew that was the only decision Alexei could make. And, you know, back in September, as soon as he emerged from the coma after he was poisoned with the Novacek military-grade nerve agent when he announced that he will be going back to Russia. You know, I've got a lot of calls from journalists, mostly Western journalists, asking me to comment on this, you know, sensation, as they put it. And I said that I don't see not only a sensation but actually any news here. It was absolutely obvious to us he was going to return. You know, after both of my poisonings in Moscow and after I went for medical rehabilitation abroad, there was no question in my mind that I'm returning. And I did both times because, you know, a Russian politician can only be a Russian politician in Russia. If everybody who fights dictatorships only thought about their personal safety, then nothing would ever move forward in history. And frankly speaking, you know the best thing that the Kremlin wants us to do, those of us who oppose Vladimir Putin and his dictatorship, would be to give up and run away. And you know what? It's not going to happen because we know there are a lot of people in Russia, as you saw from the public reaction to the return of Alexei Navalny, thousands of people who tried to meet him at the airport, which was basically turned into a subject of a military siege this past weekend. There are a lot of people in Russia who fundamentally reject, you know, what Putin and Putinism stand for. And who want Russia to be, in the words of Alexei Navalny himself, a normal European country. And we're going to continue doing everything in our power to bring that day forward.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can I ask before we talk further about him, you mentioned yourself being poisoned, you were poisoned twice, in 2015 and 2017, and obviously survived that.

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: That's right.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that do to you physically?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, it does a lot to physically. I mean, both times I was in a coma. I was in artificial life support with multiple organ failure. And both times, doctors told my wife that I had about a five per cent chance to live. So I cannot tell you how grateful and how fortunate I feel to be able to even speak with you now. But you know what? At least I had the five per cent. Boris Nemtsov, the Russian opposition leader, did not even have one per cent when he was gunned down by five bullets in his back in the shadow of the Kremlin in February of 2015. This was the most high-profile political assassination in the history of modern Russia. And for all the years since, the Russian government at the highest levels has continued to shield and protect his murderers. I mean, after all, one does not investigate oneself. Those are the stakes. This is the price of being in opposition to the regime of Vladimir Putin today.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is the psychological effect of that? I mean, for a lot of people, they would just disappear and not want to return back to the coalface where there in such danger. You say that, you know, it was his only option to return. What is the psychological effect of something like that on someone like Alexei Navalny?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, I don't know, maybe some people, as you say, will disappear, but I know for Alexei, and I certainly know for myself after after both experiences, I've had it only strengthens the resolve, frankly. I mean, it means we're doing something right if they're so afraid of us, if they're willing to fight us with any means possible, including, you know, the ultimate ones. And again, I think the biggest gift those of us who oppose Putin's regime could give them would be to give up and run away. And, you know, it's even manifested in small things. I mean, for example, every time I return back to Moscow, I go through passport control at the airport. There's always some problems. I mean, I stand there in front of the officer, I don't know, 20 or 30 minutes. They call somewhere. They go and speak to someone. They look at the computer screen. I mean, eventually, of course, they let me through because, you know, what can they do whe a Russian citizen is returning home to Russia. But every time I fly out, just now before the Christmas holidays, I flew out of Moscow and, you know, they just stamp the passport in five seconds with a message, sort of get out of here. Well, you know what? We're not going to because, again, there are millions of people in Russia today who reject Putin and everything he stands for, the kleptocracy, the dictatorship, the corruption, and who wants Russia to become a normal modern democratic European country. And I know this day will come. And everything that we do has its goal to try to bring that day a little closer.

MATT GALLOWAY: Putin won't even say Alexei Navalny's name. What does it say to you that Navalny was arrested immediately as soon as he landed? And, I mean, they redirected the plane to a different airport so that presumably that could happen in a more expedient way. What does it say to you about Vladimir Putin's state of mind?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, I think this is, frankly, more a question to a psychoanalyst than, you know, to a politician or a political analyst. It's clear that there's something I mean, that there's something almost mystical going on. I mean, Vladimir Putin goes to any length, and so do his you know, his his cronies and his key officials. By the way, just today, the speaker of the Russian parliament opening the session, you know, he he said the person they sent to us from Germany, or something like that. I mean, Putin called Navalny the patient of the clinic in Berlin. I mean, you can't make this thing up. It's like almost they have a mystical fear of actually pronouncing his name. Again, I think this is more psychoanalysis.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, explain that to me. Why is Putin so afraid of him?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, because, you know, in this sort of artificial construct, artificial image that the Kremlin propaganda has put forward, you know, Putin is this omnipotent, all powerful, all- popular leader. And there's nobody else in the Russian political scene that even comes close. And I guess it comes from this that they do not want to admit that there actually is an alternative, that there is opposition in Russia. But you know what there is if we can see this by the thousands of people who have been coming out to street demonstrations in the past several years, including the massive, unprecedented protest just in the past few months in the far eastern city of Khabarovsk. We see this and the humiliating losses that pro-Putin candidates have suffered recently in local elections, even to technical spoilers once they remove real opponents from the ballot, which they usually do. We certainly see it from the public attention that has surrounded Alexei Navalny's return. And I hope, by the way, that this public attention also leads to some reaction in Western countries, including Canada. Just before he returned home to Russia, Alexei Navalny discussed with his colleagues the fact that Western democracies are not using the sanctions provisions that they do have for targeted personal sanctions against key cronies and key oligarchs of the Putin regime who are stealing from the people of Russia and then coming and stashing away those stolen money in the West.And Alexei Navalny, in fact, his colleagues yesterday released a list of key oligarchs that include people like Roman Abramovich, and Alisher Usmanov, and Andrey Kostin, and some others who should be targeted by Western financial sanctions. And, you know, Canada since 2017 has had legislation called the Magnitsky Law that does provide for those personal targeted sanctions. But frankly, it has sat unused since 2017. And it's high time to put it into use and to send a clear message that those people who have gotten used to stealing in Russia and then stashing away and spending that stolen money in the West will no longer be able to do that in Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: There have been other popular strong anti-Putin politicians in Russia. Many, as you know, are in exile. Some are in jail. Others are dead. Is there anything just finally that you think might make Alexei Navalny his fate any different?

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Well, you know, as time goes by, more and more people in Russia are beginning to become fed up with Vladimir Putin. I mean, this man has not been in power for 21 years. I mean, can you imagine that in a European country in the 21st century, we've had one man rule for more than two decades? That's a whole generation of people in Russia that has no other political memory. And it is, in fact, that young generation that is increasingly rising up. And we see this again in street demonstrations in recent months, in recent years, you know, from Moscow to Khabarovsk. And, you know, there just comes a time when there's an expiration point for any dictatorship, however strong it thinks it is. And I think that point for Mr. Putin is fast approaching.

MATT GALLOWAY: Vladimir, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

VALDIMIR KARA-MURZA: Thank you for your invitation.

MATT GALLOWAY: Vladimir Kara-Murza is a vice president of the Free Russia Foundation. He was in Washington, D.C. this morning. Catherine Belton is a special correspondent for Reuters and the author of "Putin's People: How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took on the West". Catherine, good morning to you.

CATHERINE BELTON: Hi, thanks so much for having me on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Listening to Vladimir Kara-Murza, their talk about Vladimir Putin in some ways being frightened of Alexei Navalny and frightened of his return. Do you think, well, why do you think Vladimir Putin would be concerned about the return of an opposition politician, given what has happened to other opposition politicians in that country?

CATHERINE BELTON: I think the longer Putin's rule has gone on, the more paranoid he's become. Obviously, in order to consolidate such immense power, he and his comrades have been involved in various nefarious acts along the way. And so the longer his rule has gone on, the more they've been embroiled in these in these matters, including the assassination of Boris Nemtsov that Vladimir mentioned and the poisoning of Vladimir himself and of Navalny. So they realize that if there is any alternative to their rule, then, in fact, they could face prison and criminal charges themselves. And I think what happened with Navalny in August was actually very telling because that was at the moment when the Kremlin really was beginning to look over its shoulder and really begin to worry because it could see in neighbouring Belarus, for instance, that all of a sudden, the population that had been very apolitical for decades and all of a sudden they'd risen up and shed their fear of the security services and come out to demonstrate a march against the return to power Belarussian President Alexander Lukashenko. And at the same time, as Vladimir mentioned, there were protests beginning in Russia's far east, which were unprecedented, really, and a number and duration. The people that were protesting against Kremlin heavy-handed tactics in trying to replace a local governor who wasn't on the right side of the Kremlin. And, really, these protests went on for a long time, and they were unprecedented. And I think sort of Putin and his comrades are just increasingly worried that kind of the population is tiring of them. At that time, Putin's own popularity ratings are at a 20 year low. And he's running out of tricks to keep the population onside. Russia's economy is entering into a deep recession because of the pandemic they've been struggling, too, from low oil prices. Putin had a tremendous look for his first two terms as president because oil prices were surging. He kind of presided over this great economic recovery. And then, sort of later, he was able to keep the population on side by annexing Crimea, which was sort of a great patriotic move that everyone approved of after all the humiliation of the Soviet collapse. But now, he's kind of running out of options and, you know, he doesn't really have anything else to sort of cheer the population up with. And their living standards are falling. So his presidency is really in uncharted territory. He's really actually struggling to kind of find ways to keep the population onside.

MATT GALLOWAY: What would be the political calculation in that very public arrest of Alexei Navalny as soon as he returns? I mean, Navalny called it the highest degree of lawlessness. This wasn't done, you know, tucked away in the dark somewhere. It was happening in broad daylight in the airport, live streamed. And then we see the images the following day of him in this kind of makeshift courtroom with a trial that's unfolding before his lawyer even knew about it. What would Putin be thinking in terms of doing this out in the open?

CATHERINE BELTON: I think really he was just trying to signal to everyone that he has the ultimate power, that no one else stands a chance against him. It's just this very open move. And it's really also a sign to all that he's been able to act with impunity, and he's going to continue to do so. He was really thumbing his nose at all the legal niceties. If earlier on in his rule, when he was dating Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Russia's once richest man, in 2003, they were quite careful to pay some degree of attention to legal niceties. But when Navalny was arrested at the airport on Sunday, he wasn't even allowed to take his lawyer with them. And his lawyers weren't informed that a hearing was going to be conducted until one minute before it was due to start. So really, that kind of tearing up the rule book and almost it's as if they no longer care. And probably that's also possibly because, you know, they've been caught red handed in tailing Navalny during his travels in the regions ahead of his poisoning. My colleagues at Bellingcat produced wonderful reports in which they've managed to sort of track a hitsquad of FSB operatives who'd been travelling and tailing Navalny for months before his poisoning, and then were with him when it occurred. And then Navalny himself managed to entrap a very low-ranking member of them into essentially admitting that he'd smeared Navalny's underpants with military-grade chemical weapons, novacek. So, you know, it's almost as if, you know, how low can you go? And they've sort of reached the bottom already. So, and essentially, it's a power play by Putin. He's saying I can act with impunity, and put any person who wants to challenge me away behind bars. And the risk here. So at the moment, the court has given Navalny 30 days in jail until a court decides on whether he's.... Because in the view of the Russian court, he's broken his parole terms by not turning up for meetings with his probation officer just because he was recovering from this poisoning. Whether his suspended sentence of three-and-a-half years is going to be turned into a real jail term of three-and-a-half years. But beyond that, the Russian prosecutors have also forwarded new criminal charges against Navalny, alleging he embezzled cash from his own fund, which could land him another ten years in jail. So certainly they are putting out all the stops. They don't want to sort of risk Navalny being around to lead any protests. And that's partly because Putin regime has run out of ideas. Its popularity is waning. And there are parliamentary elections coming up in September this year. And the Kremlin ruling party is struggling even to muster 30 per cent in popularity at the moment. They're really quite in trouble.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just finally then, I mean, we know that today is the last full day of President Donald Trump being in office as president of the United States. His administration rarely criticized President Putin in the Kremlin. Do you think that a Biden administration will make a real difference in how the Kremlin and Putin operate? If you say that he's operating with impunity, will Joe Biden as president make that much of a difference?

CATHERINE BELTON: I really hope so. I mean, already, there are signs that Biden is going to strongly change tack. [chuckle] I mean, obviously the way Trump ran the White House and his kind of, his very divisive presidency was music to the ears of Putin and his KGB men, because they've long been dreaming of dividing and disrupting the post-Cold War order. It was in their interest, certainly, for kind of the U.S. to be pitted against Europe and for the U.S. to start withdrawing as a force in the Middle East. And there are already signs that Biden wants to kind of end those tensions. He's reaching out to the EU and most importantly, they want to work together on sort of anti-money laundering laws, which would make it harder for the Putin regime to funnel cash into the West and use that black cash to divide and disrupt democracies quite so effectively as it has been doing. And one thing that Biden really could do would be to pay attention, perhaps, to the list that Vladimir just mentioned.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

CATHERINE BELTON: The list of potential sanctions targets that the Navalny has forwarded. It would be very important to make the sanctions more effective by indeed targeting those moneymen, the Moscow oligarchs, who actually act as fronts for the Putin regime and fund and kind of hold vast amounts of money in the West. And that would really hit the Putin regime where it hurts. So, yes, I think it would be very effective if they paid a great deal more of attention to more targeted sanctions, and that would put a lot of pressure on the Putin regime itself.

MATT GALLOWAY: Catherine, great to speak with you about this. I really appreciate your perspective on this this morning. Thank you very much.

CATHERINE BELTON: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Catherine Belton, an investigative journalist with Reuters, she joined me this morning from London. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. To matters close to home for people in the midst of this pandemic. If you're a parent, even if you know a parent, you don't need me to tell you that this has been a pretty tough year in all sorts of ways. Kids stuck at home, virtual school well parents are trying to work, or try to figure out how the technology actually works so the kids can be on the screen with the teacher. Teenagers, I don't need to tell you really much more about that, if you know, you know, [laughing] not to mention the screen time zone. Is anyone even counting how much time our kids are on screens anymore. As this pandemic worsens, and COVID-19 restrictions are extended in many parts of the country, perhaps you have some questions about how to support young people through everything that's been going on and what this might mean for them when we ever get out of the other side? We want to hear from you. What are your questions about helping kids stay healthy and happy during COVID-19? Maybe you have some tips to share what's working well in your house. You can email us your question about how kids are coping during the pandemic, or send us a voice memo. Maybe you can have your kids do it for you if they have questions. email your question to: theCurrent@cbc.ca, or write questions via Facebook or Twitter: @TheCurrentCBC. I ask you this because on Friday, we will put your questions to the experts, people who can help with the physical and emotional help that our kids may need right now, questions about how kids are coping during this pandemic. Email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca, and we'll answer your questions on Friday. Your news is next. And then,. [Music: "One" by Filter/Rock]

MATT GALLOWAY: A lot of us are feeling that lonely number just a bit more right now. After the break, A new podcast digs into loneliness and finds it in surprising places like diners and paintings. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to "The Current". We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

coping with loneliness in the pandemic

Guests: Danita Steinberg, Peg Fong, Marci Stepak

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to "The Current".

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Grand Master Nalo Hopkinson. That has a nice ring to it! The Canadian speculative fiction author and educator can add that title to her many accolades after being recogniZed by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America for a lifetime of work. She's my guest in half-an-hour. But first, we're all in this together. And yet, so far apart.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Lockdowns, stay-at-home orders, shuttered restaurants and stores. This is a tough time to be living alone and isolated. But loneliness is more than just an uncomfortable feeling. Health experts are worried that loneliness could be a second pandemic with serious health effects. We'll talk more about that in just a few moments. But first, want to check in with Danita Steinberg, who lives alone in Toronto. Danita, good morning.

DANITA STEINBERG: Hello.

MATT GALLOWAY: What has it been like living alone in this pandemic?

DANITA STEINBERG: Well, [laughing] it's been lonely. You know, I think... I think what I miss most is just having that close proximity to people I care about. You know, sitting on the couch with someone, I fantasize a lot about cooking for my friends, and sharing meals together again.

MATT GALLOWAY: You describe loneliness as feeling like an ache. What did you mean by that?

DANITA STEINBERG: Sometimes like a dull ache, and sometimes it's it's more of an acute ache, but it's just kind of always, always present. And, you know, I've felt lonely before; we've all felt lonely, but this is something... something like I've never experienced before.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is it different than being alone? I mean, people could conflate the two things, but... but is there daylight between the two of those?

DANITA STEINBERG: Yeah, there's definitely a difference. I mean, I'm someone who's really happy in her solitude and really enjoys her own company. And that's still true even ten months into the pandemic. But there are definitely times when it's like, I don't know when the next time I'm going to see somebody is. And, you know, my social battery is just completely zapped. And, you know, an hour or two outside with friends just, you know, it doesn't recharge that battery at all because it's so depleted.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are there moments, I mean, you talked about the idea of of missing, you know, sitting on the couch with somebody. Are there moments when you notice it more than others?

DANITA STEINBERG: I think, like I said, just like especially when I'm eating, you know, I really, really miss sharing meals with people I care about.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's a lot of guidance that we're getting from public health officials and government officials on what we should and shouldn't be doing in these times. And I wonder whether you think that people like yourself who live alone, whether your needs and whether your situation is being considered as a lockdown or stay-at-home orders, for example, are taking shape?

DANITA STEINBERG: I'm not sure that they were, in the beginning, there wasn't a lot of talk about people who live alone. Now, I found that they do mention us a little bit more. We are allowed to kind of join with one other household. But I do think overall that's, you know, an afterthought. The messaging has been so much about families and what to do with you when you have kids and all of that stuff.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

DANITA STEINBERG: But, you know, and I also think it's hard because for me, who depends on a wide support system of friends, normally it's very hard for me to expect to get everything I need from, you know, one person or one other household. So that's something to consider, too.

MATT GALLOWAY: What are you doing to cope with this? I mean, we're all kind of stuck in this strange situation. But it's affecting everybody in different ways. So what are you doing?

DANITA STEINBERG: I mean, like I said, I do enjoy my own company, and that definitely helps. I do feel, you know, almost more equipped than a lot of people to be alone through this. So I do feel very lucky. But I listen to podcasts, and like I said, as kind of like sad as it sounds [awkward chuckle], it feels like having company here. But I also, you know, I'm doing regular things like videoing with my friends and, you know, talking on the phone more. And I've even started, you know, writing letters. And then, of course, you know, I feel like it is safe enough to go for walks with friends outside at a distance. And, you know, stuff like that has been a lifesaver.

MATT GALLOWAY: When we get out of this, whenever that is.

DANITA STEINBERG: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you're able to see those people again, what do you want to do? What's the first thing that you'll do?

DANITA STEINBERG: I'm just really excited to hug all my friends. I think about hugging them literally all the time. So that's number one. And for me, going to the movies and and going back to thrifting, those are my three things.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thrifting?

DANITA STEINBERG: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: [both laughing] Just going and just kind of wandering through the store with other people.

DANITA STEINBERG: Honestly, touching things.

MATT GALLOWAY: I hope we get there sooner rather than later. And I wish you the very best. It's really good to talk to you, Danita. Take care of yourself.

DANITA STEINBERG: Thank you, bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Danita Steinberg lives alone in Toronto. As she said, it's one thing to be alone. It's another thing to be lonely. It's a whole other thing to dig deep into what's behind those feelings and how perhaps those feelings could be changed. That is what Peg Fong has done in a new podcast that she hosts. It's called "Alone Together". She's a journalist in Vancouver. Peg, good morning to you.

PEG FONG: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me about this. You have a podcast. You're writing a book about loneliness. What is it, especially at this time, that's got you so interested in loneliness?

PEG FONG: You know, I've been writing this book for a number of years as a journalist, as a working journalist. It's something that you've been wanting to do... I've been wanting to do on this side of the table whenever I get to it. I was a reporter for the Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and the Vancouver Sun. And I think in all of those places, I try to convince an editor, you know, there should be a beat about loneliness. We should... we should.... we should write about this all the time about isolation because we do know that what has happened is that if you know people who are lonely, they go to the hospital more, you know, they die earlier. There's a lot of issues around social isolation that, even before the pandemic, we knew about. And the pandemic has really heightened it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are the stories, I mean, that you heard from Danita familiar to what you're learning about in terms of, you know, what you're hearing from people that you've spoken with over the course of the last year or so?

PEG FONG: Yeah, it's true. You know what Danita was saying, you know, about sitting on the couch, and really that's when you really kind of crave these interactions with other people when you're having a meal with them. And some of the things that she, Danita, talked about is what people have been doing. We know that there has been a spike in letter writing, you know, people writing to prisoners and people writing to people that they haven't been in touch with for a long time. And the craving and this need to have physical touch with others, with the people that you're close to and you are not allowed to. I have an episode about, you know, the importance of touch, and how touching each other, the physical touch can make a big difference in our in our mental health and in our physical health. Loneliness in this era really has created an army of alienation. And there is going to be a huge survival skill, and that survival skill is being able to reach out and make a connection to someone.

MATT GALLOWAY: You explore some fascinating things connected to loneliness in the podcast. One is the connection between loneliness and kindness. Just briefly, tell me about that.

PEG FONG: Yeah, I interviewed a man who lives in England. He is 75 years old. And he was so lonely, he put a sign in his window wanting people to reach out. This is during the pandemic. He had lost his wife. He put in a sign in his window saying, please reach out. The silence is unbearable. And he was hoping that people would call him, people would wave, anything like that. You know, this the signal that please, I need help. I need someone to reach out to me because I'm not able to reach out to anyone. And no one called him, you know, his neighbours didn't... You know, the sign was there, people walking by and no one reached out to him. And for him, it was a realization that the kindness, as we know and scientists have known for a long time, kindness can make a difference in how you deal with the world around you. And is it is better to be a giver of kindness than to be a receiver. The receiver of kindness is going to get a lot of benefit. But if you are able to reach out and give kindness to someone, there are immediate benefits right away. As soon as five weeks, people know.

MATT GALLOWAY: His name is Tony Williams. And I mean, the fact that what you described to a lot of people seems almost unimaginable, that he's that lonely, that he puts a sign in his window saying, I've lost Joe, my lovely wife and soul mate. I have no friends or family. Can no one help me? Here is how Tony Williams described what he was doing and then what ultimately ended up happening.

TONY WILLIAMS And when you got to all these negative feelings, it's the most dificult thing to get up and do something positive, as I have done. My campaign to really draw attention. The whole thing was construed, and it all turned against me. You would expect people to empathize with my situation, being lonely, not being able to talk to anybody, they've totally misconstrued it. And it's just another layer of pain and desolation and antagonism. It's just incredible how this has happened. In fact, I get up and talk to myself in the morning, and I say, tommorow is igoing to be even worse. And if it isn't, it's a good day.

MATT GALLOWAY: He says his efforts, as you were saying, were misconstrued. The response that he got is even more heartbreaking than what initially was unfolding, Peg.

PEG FONG: You know, no spoiler alert here, but, you know, it does end up well. And I want listeners to know that that he felt this isolation, and the people around him didn't really didn't understand. And he said that there was a lot of negative feelings. And the reason for that, he believes, is that there is shame in admitting that you're lonely. There is some feelings of don't talk about it. Don't say it out loud that I'm feeling alone. I'm feeling lonely. Can I reach out and talk to you? And his immediate neighbours did not. But what happened is that, you know, it's hard to reach Tony Williams these days by phone [chuckling] because he is getting a lot of calls from people from all over the world. People have found out about his campaign for himself to end loneliness. And now, he has started to reach out to other people. He has started to make calls. He knows people who are lonely. He's calling them and he... In between then, he's getting a lot of calls from other people who want to talk to him, who want to find out how he is doing. And he has become, for me, this understanding that when you reach out and you're able to make these connections with people, it's not going to solve loneliness, it's not going to end the pandemic. But these little connections that we start to make with each other, with your neighbours, with someone you haven't talked to in ten years, I did an episode about letter writing and how important it is. And there were people who said, I wrote a letter to someone I haven't written to in 10 years, in 15 years. I had this break with someone and we just never talked again. We unfriended each other on Facebook. I wrote a letter. And these connections are really vital for us in rebuilding who we are as a community.

MATT GALLOWAY: You talked about touch. Danita was speaking earlier about how she really misses just giving her friends a hug. And I think all of us miss that in these strange times that we're in. There were tips that a researcher gave you about missing physical contact and how perhaps in some ways we could compensate for that. What did the tips include?

PEG FONG: You know, I talked to a number of people for that episode. One was a professional cuddler, and one was --

MATT GALLOWAY: A professional cuddler?!

PEG FONG: A professional cuddler!

MATT GALLOWAY: Continue.

PEG FONG: That episode is coming up. And another person was a monk. She was a woman who became a monk. And in Thailand, monks aren't allowed to touch people of the opposite sex. And then I also talked to a researcher, Tiffany Field, who is the head of the research institute at the University of Miami. And all of them had these tips about touch, you know, the monks said that, look, even if you cannot touch someone, really connect with them, really listen to them when they're talking to you and when you are talking to them. If it's on video, and she and I talked by video, [chuckling] if you're talking to them by video, make eye contact, really give that person who you are talking to, whether by phone or whatever, give them your full attention. And that is as important as touch., And the researcher from the Touch Institute that if you were alone, and there's no one there who can give you a hug, no one there who can give you a massage on your arm, or touch you on the arm, take off your shoes, you know, take off your your slippers, as most of us are wearing these days [both chuckle], and take off your socks and walk around barefoot in your home.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that give you?

PEG FONG: Well, what that helps you do is that she said even the sensory receptors in your feet touching something will make a difference. And I was floored by that. As soon as she... After that interview, I did do that. I walked around and barefoot in my home. And, you know, those receptors, you know, that connected between my feet and the floor made a difference.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, we're almost out of time. But is it your sense that... you talked about the stigma, is there a sense that what, you know has been discussed over the course of this pandemic in the latter part of the pandemic is going to help erase some of that stigma around loneliness and get us to talk more openly about loneliness?

PEG FONG: I think that is one thing that has come out of this, that now if you say I'm feeling lonely. I'm alone. I want to talk to you. Can we connect? All of that, it shouldn't have been a stigma before. It really shouldn't be a stigma now. It really should be that this is what we all need to do as we all need to wear a mask, as we all need to be socially-distanced and socially-isolating from each other for the good of everyone. We also need to be able to make these connections and say, I want to reach out. I'm reaching out to you. I know we haven't talked. Or, you know, for me, one of the things that I miss connecting with strangers, you know, people that you meet randomly in a grocery store, you're reaching for the same product and you have this conversation, you know, that has all been gone. But we can reach out. We can talk to people that we don't know, random strangers. We're able to have these connections, whatever way that we do it. And there are lots of different ways that we can do that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Peg, it's great to talk to you. And we'll send people to the podcast to learn more. Thank you very much.

PEG FONG: Thanks so much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Peg Fong is a journalist and host of the podcast "Alone Together". I want to bring one final voice into this. In May, when things were really just taking hold in this pandemic, we were a couple of months into it. We spoke about loneliness with Marci Stepak. She lives in Montreal, had been experiencing loneliness since she was a teenager. She's back on the line with us. Marci, good morning.

MARCI STEPAK: Hello, how are you?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to talk to you again.

MARCI STEPAK: Yes, you too.

MATT GALLOWAY: Remind us how you were feeling in those early months of the pandemic? I think we were all kind of feeling at sea. But how were you feeling?

MARCI STEPAK: Yeah, I mean, I was... I was definitely feeling lonely. I was a bit panicked and worried about, you know, what that was going to lead to? For me, loneliness has always been surrounded by a lot of embarrassment and shame as well, because for so long, I tied up my loneliness to my, I guess, self worth. And so I was worried that compounded with, you know, not being able to get out, not being able to have connections was going to really spiral downwards. It isn't quite what happened, but that's... That's what you know, when we talked in May, that's what I was really focussed on.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so almost a year into this, how are you feeling now?

MARCI STEPAK: Well, it's funny because I thought... I thought that what was going to help me, because I did recognize that I was going to need some tools to help me with this, [cuckling] was I thought that, you know, I was going to be able to be like that, that wise older woman giving out, doling out advice to all these newbies who were dealing with loneliness. [chuckling] And that that was going to be helpful. That was going to be my contribution. But it turned out that I learned so much from other people in the last ten months. You know, whether it was as your last caller, who was just absolutely amazing, her insights mentioned, you know, people are reaching out, people are asking for help. The media talking about it more. There's more research, getting visibility, you know, in the media, or in social, or in conversations with people. And so it's been quite a reckoning, actually.

MATT GALLOWAY: Has that changed how you how you approach your social interactions such as they are in these pandemic times?

MARCI STEPAK: Yeah, I mean, I feel like when this pandemic is over, I'm going to be asking, like my... The woman at the Starbucks drive through and my local pharmacist over for dinner, [Matt laughs] because those are kind of only two people outside of my home who I'm seeing with any regularity. And it's odd, but I really... I'm really mindful of that, and I'm really appreciative of it. So, it sounds odd, but like I feel like some of my interactions have actually improved.

MATT GALLOWAY: Part of this is also, as you said, and as Peg was talking about, the stigma around loneliness, right? I mean, do you think that we'll think differently about loneliness when we get out of this?

MARCI STEPAK: Gosh, I mean, I hope so. I will, for me personally. Like I said earlier and, you know, in your introduction, I've been having bouts of loneliness since I was a teenager, and that's decades and decades ago. So what I'm realizing is that I told myself a story about the reason I felt that way when I was a teenager. And I've been telling myself that same story, like just this loneliness loop for decades, and I realized in the last ten months, like after decades, that all the stories I was telling myself weren't necessarily true. Those stories were a lie, and they were all about me. I thought I needed to be more, or to do more. But what I realized about loneliness, for me, is that I that wasn't the case. I needed maybe in my case to appreciate more like what I already had. To be more mindful of what and who I'm already, you know, surrounded by. And that has made, you know, that has made such a tremendous difference. And it's going to be different for everybody. Your last caller talked about, you know, that man who was reaching out to random strangers and begging and pleading for help. And I'm glad that he, you know, found what was going to work for him. For me, I realized I needed... it has more to do with substance and trust with other people, I guess. And the last ten months have given me the time just to see that, to see that there's so many different stories. And maybe the one I was telling myself about, my version of loneliness wasn't true.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm really glad we had the chance to talk again. And I'm glad you're doing all right. Marci, thank you very much.

MARCI STEPAK: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care. Marci Stepak lives in Montreal. Your thoughts on loneliness. These are lonely, isolating times. And if you would like to tell us how you've been coping, you can reach us through email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. This is The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. Speaking of your comments, last week we talked about the joy for families of skating on a backyard rink, especially during this pandemic when most of the indoor rinks are closed.

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY It was awesome to be able to skate on the rink.

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: Our rink is a bit tiny, but it works. We haven't skated for months, so it was really fun to get back on the ice.

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: I thought I would be a little rusty, but I wasn't. It just felt completely natural to go back on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Our senior producer Karin Marley is here with a few of your letters. Karen, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY Good morning. Let's start with [clears throat] Art Clarke in Flesherton, Ontario. He had many fond memories of skating and playing hockey 70 years ago on several outdoor rinks, rinks they called, The Old Rink, The Pond, and The Horseshoe. He writes, while playing hockey until dark after school was almost exclusively a boys activity, girls were a very important part of skating. In the evenings. The boys always outnumbered the girls, and there was stiff competition amongst the boys to skate holding hands with the girls. One night, when we were skating on The Horseshoe, I fell through the ice and was wet well above my knee. Rather than going home, I decided to show off likely for the girls who were there. I took my jeans off, hung them up on a stick near the bonfire to dry, continued skating in my long underwear. When I went back to retrieve my steaming jeans, I realized that I'd left them too close to the fire and burned several large holes in my pants.

MATT GALLOWAY: I know Flesherton well, and I think I've skated on The Pond. I've certainly swum in the pond. This from John Stevenson in Yellowknife. Who writes about This winter, we were blessed with a good, smooth freeze on Back Bay on Great Slave Lake. Skating in early winter was paradise. I have for many years cleared a rink on Range Lake. This year, snow in the overflow beat me up. In addition to skating, other outdoor activities have blossomed. The snowmobile dealer sold out early. The outdoor store sold out on canoes, tents, bikes and cross-country skis, and they're taking order for next year's skis. He's also getting his COVID vaccination this week, and says hurray. Congratulations!

KARIN MARLEY Congratulations indeed. Ed Verreth writes, I remember the London, Ontario ice rink my dad made in the 60s and 70s. My parents were immigrants from Belgium. I have no idea how they learned to do it? Our backyard was not level. We would wait for a bunch of snow and then stomp it down sort of flat. Then we would spread newspaper over the area for the rink. The paper gets a soaking, a quick freeze and more water. Then repeat the watering. A little snow could be made into ice. A lot of snow was a problem if you could not stand on the ice yet. If you broke through, packed snow and water, made a patch. Once we skated on it, the high spots got cut out with the skates and shovels. There were bumps and ridges in the ice, but it was the same with the ice across the road on the farmers creek. And the backyard rink was closer to the heat in the house. I moved to coastal BC in my twenties. No more backyard ice rinks for me.

MATT GALLOWAY: You make do with what you have.

KARIN MARLEY Indeed.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you very much for all of you who tweeted photos of your rinks. You can see the photos at The Current CBC. Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Of course, you can reach us to comment on anything you hear on this program. Again, the email is: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC, or go to the website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the "contact" link. Your regional update is next, and then, she's being recognized for her work as an educator and her writing. Nalo Hopkinson, the latest author to be named Grand Master by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. She's my guest, coming up after the break. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Nalo Hopkinson

Guest: Nalo Hopkinson

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". I think it's fair to say that the Canadian author Nalo Hopkinson has reached the pinnacle of her profession. But don't take it from me. Take it from actor and director LeVar Burton of Star Trek.

LEVAR BURTON: Hey, Nalo. LeVar Burton here beaming in to add my voice to the chorus of those who are singing your praises, and deservedly so. [deep breath] Nalo, I was a fan long before we met and became friends. You have been and continue to be an inspiration, not simply with the power and the wisdom in your words, but also with the deep and abiding humanity and generosity of spirit with which you deliver your words to us. There's a fine line, in my view, between humanity and divinity, and you dance between them with effortless ease and grace. Congratulations. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America have done us all proud in selecting you for this high honour, peace and blessings. I love you.

MATT GALLOWAY: That high honour that LeVar Burton is talking about is the Damon Knight Grand Master Award from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. It is a lifetime achievement award, and Nalo Hopkinson is the first woman of colour ever to receive it. She also happens to be the youngest recipient. Nalo Hopkinson began writing in Toronto with a fabulous debut novel called "Brown Girl in the Ring". It imagined a future version of the city after riots and economic collapse and hollowed out the city core. Her work incorporates themes of feminism, Caribbean folklore and Afro-Caribbean culture. And since 2018, she's been trying her hand at comic books with a series from DC that's part of the revival of Neil Gaiman's legendary Sandman Comic Universe. Nalo Hopkinson is now a professor of creative writing at the University of California, Riverside. Nalo Hopkinson, good morning.

NALO HOPKINSON: Good morning. Thank you for having me here.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is it like to hear someone like LeVar Burton sing your praises like that? [both laughing brightly]

NALO HOPKINSON: You know that thing you do when you're shocked, you put your hands over your mouth and your mouth is open? That's what I was doing all the way through it. [laughing] It's humbling. And it feels like he's exaggerating because that divinity part I'm not sure about. But it's LeVar Burton! [both laughing].

MATT GALLOWAY: He's allowed to say whatever he wants to say.

NALO HOPKINSON: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: No, but I mean, the divinity part. What did he say? The connection and the bridge between divinity and humanity.

NALO HOPKINSON: Um-hmm.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does that mean to you?

NALO HOPKINSON: I... it... It threw me. It really, really threw me. I hope I manage the humanity part, and the rest I would think of as being something I'm trying for in my writing to sort of hit some of the more profane and sublime aspects of being human.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hmm. He's not the only one in this long tribute video online that sings your praises. There are writers who talk about the role that you've played as a mentor, writers who talk about the role that you've played as a role model, as a teacher. What is it like to be considered a role model?

NALO HOPKINSON: [chuckling] It makes me feel mischievous [both laughing] because there's this thing where I guess a lot of my students expect a certian respectability, but I'm an artist, and I don't think art is about being respectable. So it's... it's sort of fun to throw them. Sometimes I'm not even trying. I don't know what's going to throw them. But it also is a responsibility that is a joyful one to me and one I take quite seriously. I know that I represent a lot to people who didn't think they could do what I'm doing for various reasons. And people from marginalized experiences like I am being Black, being an immigrant to North America, being female, being queer, being over a certain age, having some level of disability. Lots of people who share any of those feel that they cannot... they cannot make their voices heard. And so I hear from them because they want to know how I do it and they're reading my work, and it means a lot to them. So it's something I do take seriously.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you say to them when they say, how do you do it?

NALO HOPKINSON: [laughing] I ask them for specifics. There's a lot that people that create barriers in this world of being a writer, but that it also starts from craft. I tell them to not be afraid to say what they have to say, to assume that they can find allies in the industry. It's not always true, but that allies come from unexpected places. And to just keep working on what they're doing. Keep learning about the industry. Be bold. Look for people who are like you.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're reaching you in the midst of this wild moment that we're all in, and we've been in, it seems like for a lifetime, [chuckle] but it's only been almost a year. And you're in California and Southern California. How is life in the midst of a pandemic where you are right now?

NALO HOPKINSON: It's very, very strange. And living in an area where the sheriff is deliberately ignoring injunctions for people to be masked or not in public. There's this very bizarre denial of biology where there are a lot of people who are saying it's... it's not real, or it's not that bad. On the other hand, the hospitals here are full to capacity. It's not just don't get COVID. It's don't get anything that's going to where you're going to need to go to hospital. There are people who are going broke. There's always a high level of homelessness here in the part of Southern California I'm in. It's worse. And I'm still watching police clearing out tent cities, which are growing, which are growing. So it's quite surreal. There's also an element, particularly when this first started, of feeling like, good God, we've been science fiction writers and scientists. [both chuckling] We've been writing about this stuff for years. Haven't you been listening?

MATT GALLOWAY: So I was going to say, and I didn't want to... but, I mean, shouldn't you have seen this coming in some ways? Isn't this... Isn't this [laughing] your business?

NALO HOPKINSON: Yeah. The last thing I did out in public, the last event I attended was a blues opera version of Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Sower". "Parable of the Sower", reads like this moment and is set in Southern California because that's where Octavia was from. So to have then have the lockdown start and that be the last public thing, feels like we're being told some stuff, and maybe we should listen. [laughing]

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned the idea of representing and being a representative for people who perhaps didn't see themselves or hear their voice in the work that they wanted to do. When you are awarded something like this, something like the Damon Knight Grand Master Award, and you're the first woman of colour to get that, what does it... I mean, in terms of that representation, what does that come with? What is the responsibility that that comes with?

NALO HOPKINSON: I'm still figuring that out. They just announced it on December the 1st. I think for me, it pretty much means business as usual. Like, not much has changed. I believe it will mean I have a bit more visibility out in the world. So the mechanism by which people will come to me to be mentored is usually applying to my university. I assume that they will see applications arise from people from various backgrounds who want to write spec-fic. Probably also will mean a certain amount of backlash. There is a thread in science fiction community that is really kind of angry that women are writing it at all. That there are women of colour as well. That people who are talking about systemic oppression, which is what science fiction is about. [chuckling] So I'm not sure why they're mad. So I expect some attempts at a backlash. I don't expect that they will be much of a problem.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was going to say, I mean, winning this award could tell you one thing about where science fiction and fantasy is in 2021, but also the fact that there's a backlash might I tell you something different? Where do you think it is?

NALO HOPKINSON: I think the backlash is a tiny part.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

NALO HOPKINSON: Of the community. And the community has been actively working to to counter what they're saying. So, for instance, there's the Hugo Award, which is a reader-voted award, and a group of people tried to subvert it a few years ago by collecting votes for their candidates. They chose writers who they thought were writing the kind of thing they wanted. And it was usually it was always white, usually male, sometimes straight writers, some of whom declined the nomination when they realized how it had happened. And the community, which is a very opinionated, educated community voted no award consistently in those places that had been swamped by the "sad puppies" they call themselves. [laughing] It's just hilarious. [both laughing] So, when I see something like this, when I see SFWA giving an award to somebody like me, it tells me that they're doing some work. And that's reassuring. It tells me that my peers are seeing what I do, which is wonderful, just wonderful. But also, you look at the fact that the first woman of colour, the eighth woman at all to receive the award, and you realize there's still more work to be done.

MATT GALLOWAY: When did you realize that you would be and wanted to be a writer for a living?

NALO HOPKINSON: My father was a writer. He was a poet and a playwright. He was also an English teacher. And I grew up in a community of Caribbean writers and artists. Many of them were people I knew. But because it's something, you know, your parents and your parents friends are doing, you don't necessarily think you can. I knew that I loved science fiction and fantasy. It didn't occur to me that I might be able to learn how to write it until I stumbled across an anthology by students of the Clarion Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Workshop. And I thought, Oh, there's a workshop. You can you could learn how to do this? I ended up eventually moving to Canada, getting involved in writing there through Judy Merrill, in fact.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

NALO HOPKINSON: Who was an American writer and editor, famous feminist editor and writer who moved to Toronto. And one of the things she did was to spawn writing workshops. So she showed a bunch of us how to run our own workshop, and that's how it began to snowball. It was slow for me anyway. It was I'm going to become a writer. It was let me try this thing, and then let me try this next thing. And being blessed to have the support of my family.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was it? I mean, you could have written in any genre and any style, what... I mean, you've hinted at this a little bit with the influence of Judy Merril. But what was it about science fiction and fantasy?

NALO HOPKINSON: That's what I was reading. [chuckling] It's what I've always read. Or the precursors to it, when I was reading stuff from my dad's bookshelves, it was like old epic tales like like Homer's "Iliad" and "The Odyssey". It was collections of folk tales from various countries. I've always read something that had some element of the fantastical in it because, for me, it lifted it out of the ordinary in a way I found very appealing. So, of course, I write what I read. It wasn't really a conscious choice. It's the genre I could write knowledgeably in. It's the genre in which I know the canon. It's the genre that makes my heart sing. So that's what I write in.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you always feel as though your voice, and again, it goes back to that idea of representation, did you always feel that your voice would be welcomed there? Or... I mean, I just wonder what, you know, the young Nalo Hopkinson would have made of someone like yourself back then? I mean, as as an icon, as somebody to look toward?

NALO HOPKINSON: For me that was Samuel R. Delaney, not the first Black writer in science fiction, but very close to it. The first... one of the first ones known to be Black. I was a bit thick [laughing] and I guess partly coming from the Caribbean where people of colour are very much in the majority, there is hella racism, but it's a different sense of what's possible, and I grew up middle-class. So, again, there's a sense of if I can get to a particular place, I probably belong there. So I didn't have that same sort of reticence to go into a place that that I assumed I didn't belong in. When it occurred to me to think about race and science fiction was when I stumbled across... I was reading Samuel R. Delaney. I loved his work. But a lot of science fiction at that time was published first in paperback. So you didn't know who the authors were. But I found a hardcover at the local library where I was working of one of Chips, one of Delaney's, novels. And to I was reading it, turned to the inside cover and there was a picture of him, and it was an epiphany.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you... what do you mean an epiphany?

NALO HOPKINSON: My universe doubled in size. [both laughing] And I know he's tired of me telling this story, but it's so true. And that's when I started to look for, where the other Black writers were, and where the other writers of colour were. I was already reading a lot of the women writers and the feminist writers, but I began to look at how science fiction represented and so often misrepresented race. And also, other countries. I come from the Caribbean. At that time, you'd have to go a long distance to find the Caribbean represented and accurately in science fiction. There are a few more of us now, so. [cuckling]

MATT GALLOWAY: And, I mean, is it true... you talked about paperback and that, you know, you couldn't figure out who the author was that identity of Black writers in science fiction wasn't hidden, but in some ways was downplayed, right?

NALO HOPKINSON: Yeah, there were, at that point, perhaps three, maybe five. So there was Delaney, there was Octavia Butler came later. She was a student of Delaneys, Tananarive Due, Steven Barnes, Charles Saunders in Canada. And then the silence rolled in, and it was very difficult to discover who the others were until a writer and editor named Sheree Thomas created The Dark Matter anthologies. And those are two anthologies in which she looked to the past, and to the present, and brought in fiction that was speculative by Black writers that span 200 years. Even then, there is this notion in the genre community that hasn't thought about those people, who haven't thought about it much, who say that they believe that true fairness is not knowing the background of your writer, a writer that you're reading. But that doesn't do anything to actually change the imbalance. If you're... if you're... if you're going to be ignorant, you're going to say, well, it doesn't matter, you're doing nothing to change the status quo.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you a little bit about comic books. I mentioned the comic book series "House of Whispers". Can you tell me a little bit about this, and how you got into comic storytelling?

NALO HOPKINSON: I had wanted to start trying my hand at writing comics for some time. I've read comics since I was a little girl, got away from it a bit. Again, it was those issues of representation where I just felt like they weren't much talking to me until I discovered graphic novels by people like the brothers Hernandez and started reading them again as an adult. And I'd been wanting to write in it for some time, and had been talking to people who were professionals in the field and trying to write little scripts. And then I got a call from Vertigo, which was at that point an imprint of DC Comics, and they said, Well, did you know the "Sandman" series? chuckling] And I said, duh! [both laughing] We're rebooting it, and we're... we want... we're looking for people to pitch, to write one of the books in the series. And one of the books was "House of Whispers", which is a new house that Neal invented that belongs to Elzulie, the African diaspora goddess of love, more or less. And I said, yeah, that's the one, that's the one I'll pitch for since I have written that have written versions of Erzulie so often in my own work. And I did the pitch and then didn't hear anything for months. And when I asked again, they said, well, you know, we're trying to get our ducks in a row, it's going to happen soon, very, very soon. And two years went by. [laughing] And, at that point, they still hadn't told me if they liked my pitch. Then I got a call from another editor because by then, the first editor had moved on, and that person said, are you still interested? I said yes, do you like my pitch? And they said, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I was in a position of knowing I was going to be cutting my teeth, writing my first comic in the universe of one of the most popular comics series in North America. [laughing] So, no pressure.

MATT GALLOWAY: No pressure!

NALO HOPKINSON: No, no. I had this moment. One of the things DC did was to send me... or Vertigo did, was to send me all six of Neil's books in the Sandmen universe. And these are graphic novels. They're really thick. So I was working my way through them and we'd had a writers meeting in New Orleans. I was flying home from that and I had one more book to read. So as the plane was taking off, I pulled that book out of my bag and opened it up and felt a tap on my shoulder. And I turned around and there's a young man probably mid-to-late-20s, and he said, that's the last thing I would have expected you to pull out of your bag, [chuckling] it's a Sandman. And I thought, why not? Oh, OK. I'm 58. [both chuckling] I'm a 58-year-old Black lady. And I couldn't tell him. [laughing] It was driving me nuts.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, because it hadn't come out, of course, yeah, right.

NALO HOPKINSON: It hadn't been announced that they were doing it. [laughing] I couldn't tell them him. I had to bite my tongue through that whole flight. I just wanted to shout it.

MATT GALLOWAY: The series began in 2018, which is a huge... you think of what happened in that year.

NALO HOPKINSON: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: When "Black Panther" comes out in theatres. And when the whole... it seems like the universe kind of tilts in some ways in terms of how people think about comics and diversity in science fiction. What was that like to be... to be in the midst of that?

NALO HOPKINSON: [deep breath] It was so amazing. Writing comics is hard. Never let anybody tell you anything different. My first two issues,m I rewrote each eight times before I got something that the editors said, yes, we can work with this. And I have a learning disability. I have ADHD. I have a full-time job. I have fibromyalgia. I'm tired a lot. But whenever it started to feel like too much, I'd say, dude, you're writing a Sandman comic [both laughing].

MATT GALLOWAY: Life is OK.

NALO HOPKINSON: Life is OK. And then "Black Panther" came out and reimagined Black Panther in my eyes, because I had stopped reading Black Panther as a kid because he felt so stiff. He didn't feel like like a fully-realized character. And I know that people were, the original writers and artists, were working really hard at that. But it still didn't feel like it was coming from a deeply imagined Black space because it wasn't. Then, "Black Panther" came out. I was so sick that day. I had the flu so badly. I thought I wouldn't be able to get there. I wanted to be there on opening night. And the flu, the fever broke half-an-hour before. [laughing] I was still feeling sick as a dog, me and my blankets [laughing] went to... I found a theatre that didn't have many people in it and sat there and watched "Black Panther". It was I I began to call it going to "Black Panther" church. [Matt laughs] I've seen that film about six times now. They did an excellent job. I saw grown men cry [laughing] that moment... I remember a colleague telling me that moment where the aircraft breaks through the clouds and you're seeing Waconda from the air.

MATT GALLOWAY: When the clouds part.

NALO HOPKINSON: Yeah. And he was... he was... He had tears in his eyes because we are so marginalized, misrepresented, mistreated. To have that space and to know that the movie then went on to earn more. [laughing] It was a blockbuster-plus. For a while, it had earned more than any movie ever had, I think.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just... I mean, something like that can put wind in one's sails. And, I mean, again, you receive an award like this, it's a lifetime achievement award. You have much work left to do. Where do you find creative inspiration right now?

NALO HOPKINSON: It's everywhere. If you maintain any kind of curiosity about the world, the world is always doing things that are fiction-worthy. I cannot write anything stranger than the world will do. I maintain a curiosity about the world. I am writing often science fiction to maintain a curiosity about what's happening in science — as somebody who failed sciences except biology all the way through high school, let me say. [both laughing] So, I also just maintain the curiosity about what people are up to. I write a lot of fantasy. And fantasy is basically the stories we tell ourselves of what we're like as peoples. Anywhere you look, there's inspiration. I try to keep reading what my fellow writers are writing, and that will always inspire me. I think of it as literary compersion, compersion being when you take pleasure in somebody else's achievements and pleasure, rather than being jealous. So I'll read something, I think, hot damn, I wish I had done this, but isn't it cool that this person has so I could not read it?!

MATT GALLOWAY: That's very generous.

NALO HOPKINSON: It's the only way to go. [laughing] Otherwise, you just dissolve in bitterness.

MATT GALLOWAY: Before I let you go, what are you cooking these days? I know that you cook a lot. I was going to say cook wildly. [Nalo laughs] You cook a lot, and wildly. What are you cooking these days?

NALO HOPKINSON: I'm cooking a lot of comfort food. We just got past Christmas. I was making Jamaican black cake, which is what happens when dried fruit, meets overprof rum, meets Caribbean aesthetics. It's amazing. There is a you can get kabocha squashes here. They are... They are that thick, mealy, sweet squash — makes the best pumpkin soup ever. I'm trying new things as well. I'm home. I might as well cook. So, you know, new... new gadgets are showing up. I also bought a sushi knife, so I can fillet things properly. I'm having fun.

MATT GALLOWAY: As you should. [Nalo chuckles] It's a real pleasure to talk to you. And congratulations again on this, again, a lifetime achievement award with much life to come.

NALO HOPKINSON: Thank you so much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Nalo Hopkinson, Canadian author, now based in California. She will formally receive her lifetime achievement award, the Dayman Night Grand Master Award, from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America at an online ceremony in June. That is The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "Q". Topower live from Newfoundland and Labrador. He will be speaking with Andrew Phung. Speaking of representation, Andrew Phung is speaking about season five of Kim's convenience, and his role on that program, a very funny program, as Kimche. Before we go, a word about tomorrow's edition of The Current.

[Music: Star Spangled Banner]

MATT GALLOWAY: That will be Joe Biden's anthem for the next four years as he is sworn in as the 46th president of the United States.

JOE BIDEN: I sought this office to restore the soul of America. To rebuild the backbone of this nation, the middle-class. And to make America respected around the world again. To unite us here at home. It's the honour of my lifetime that so many millions of Americans have voted for that vision. And now, the work of making that vision is real. It's a task, the task, of our time.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's from Joe Biden's victory speech a couple of months ago. Tomorrow, he will spell out some details of how he plans to make that happen. And here on "The Current", we'll speak with Democrats about their priorities. And look at the challenges of healing the racial divide in the States, and tackling the COVID crisis. That is tomorrow. Special coverage, of course, of Joe Biden's inauguration beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern, 8:00 a.m. Pacific on CBC Radio One. We'll talk to you tomorrow. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current".

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

January 19, 2021 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This