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The AIH Transcript for December 14, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Worth a shot. One of the first Canadians to get a COVID-19 vaccine says after what her long-term care home suffered in the first wave of the virus, that jab in the arm couldn't come soon enough.

CH: Guilty of manslaughter. A judge in Thunder Bay, Ontario, convicts a man for the death of the Indigenous woman he hit with a trailer hitch.

CO: The never ending story. With Britain facing the prospect of leaving the EU without a trade deal, we'll speak with a former member of European Parliament who was scoffed at for predicting exactly this predicament.

CH: Hold the flown. When our guest found out Canadians could sign up to get one of the humongous flags flown over the peace tower, he figured, why not? And now he has to figure out what to do with it.

CO: New Jersey is in Ohio. Cleveland's baseball team finally announces it will change its name. But an Indigenous activist who has campaigned for that change says the team is still not really playing ball.

CH: And one man's meat is another man's poison. Although to be clear, the problem with the traditional Wisconsin raw beef dish known as the cannibal sandwich is that it's made people sick, not that it's made of people. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that assures you there's a lowercase C in ground Chuck.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'I'm helping bring this pandemic to an end,' says nurse who got dose of COVID-19 vaccine

First Frontline Vaccine

Guest: Colette Cameron

CH: There will be some sore arms in Canada tomorrow. Public health teams began administering the first doses of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine to Canadians today. The shots went to workers and residents at facilities that have seen firsthand just how dangerous the virus can be. The first five recipients in Ontario work at Sherbourne Place, a long-term care centre in downtown Toronto. One of them was Colette Cameron, a registered nurse and the executive director of Sherbourne Place. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Colette, this is the shot we've all been waiting for. How did it go?

COLETTE CAMERON: It went beautifully. [Chuckles] Yes, it was such a privilege to be invited to be part of this day. My team and I were just overwhelmed by getting this opportunity. Yeah, it went very very well. It didn't hurt at all. [Chuckles]

CO: But now, do you have a sense that you're part of history at this point, aren't you?

CC: Yes. Yes, we are. We are. And it's remarkable that our little home that actually went through a fairly severe outbreak in the spring has now -- we've now been COVID free since June. And we're working our darndest to make sure that we stay that way and to be able to protect our residents even more by being one of the first to get the immunisation is just amazing.

CO: The first of five people in Ontario were all at Sherbourne Place at the Rekai Centre. All of them, the little bios that are attached to your names indicating the double shifts, the long hours, the living at a hotel nearby in order to be there all the time. What was it like? Just give us a sense of how difficult things have been that Sherbourne Place.

CC: Well, at the end of March, our first resident was diagnosed with COVID. And unfortunately, it took a little while before we got the results from the time he was swabbed to the time we found out. So there is that time period where people were being infected. And also there was a time before he even became symptomatic that we felt a lot of the staff became infected. So at one point, most of the full-time staff on one unit had called in with COVID sickness. And so we were left with like a skeleton staff. But we owe it to our residents to make sure that they're well cared for. So a number of us, you know, I'm the executive director, but I donned my scrubs and I was on the floor and I worked as a PSW and I offered care with my team. And we did everything we could to make sure that our residents were well cared for.

CO: It says that you work 16 hours a day and seven days a week on the frontlines.

CC: For a while until UHN came in and brought in their reinforcements. And then we were actually able to breathe a sigh of relief.

CO: What effect did that have on your families?

CC: Oh, my poor spouse. When I did actually sleep at night, I'd wake up in the middle of the night in a nightmare worrying about PPE, there's one night -- this is embarrassing -- but I ran around the house going "The dogs don't have PPE. We need to get PPE on the dogs." And it was just bizarre.

CO: You actually did that or was that your nightmare?

CC: I actually got up apparently. I don't even remember doing that. But in the morning he said, do you not remember what you did? And I'm like "No, I don't remember that." I think that's the amount of stress we were under. But, yes, it's behind us. And as of today, let's hope we never go back there.

CO: That is just extraordinary. And now I'm getting a sense of what today must have meant for you and your colleagues.

CC: Oh, it was just incredible. Like this virus has wreaked havoc throughout the world. And by going there today and taking this small, painless injection, I'm helping bring this pandemic to an end and just doing my little part. And we do it for, obviously, the residents and families here, but I do it for my own mom, who I haven't been able to hug because I'm terrified of bringing a virus to her, not knowing that I'm carrying it, even though we do get swabbed every week. And then a very special thing for me is my daughter's due today and I expect to welcome a grandson in the next day or so. So yes, just the two combined, it's just a wonderful day. [Chuckles]

CO: Extraordinary. And so now how secure are you with just having the one job -- you have to get another one?

CC: I have to get another one in 21 days. So January 4th, I'll be back to get my second shot. But then we're still going to have to continue with our masking and our shielding and social distancing and washing your hands and everything. Nothing changes once we get the vaccine until more and more people have it. So if anything, I can say to everybody, please continue to wear your mask.

CO: But will you, after January 4th, will you be able to hug your grandson and your mother?

CC: I will probably still wear masks just be on the safe side. We don't know just yet how long your immunity will take to build up, so I will always air on the side of caution. But I will feel that I can actually do that with a mask on.

CO: Have you had to try and convince anybody of the success and the efficacy of this vaccine?

CC: Well, it's interesting on Friday, when we were first told that our staff could be part of -- tomorrow and Wednesday -- they were really quite hesitant, you know, said maybe I think I'll wait and see how others do. And then after today, all the staff are signing up and they're quite anxious to have the vaccine themselves. So I think they just needed to see somebody else to do it first. And we were glad to do that for them.

CO: Does this have a feeling of light at the end of the tunnel? Is that the sensation? How would you describe the sensation you have?

CC: Well, it is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel is still quite long. It's still far out in the distance because, you know, the five of us are just a drop in the bucket. Everybody else has to get on board and everybody else has to get vaccinated so that we can actually come to the end of that tunnel.

CO: Well, we're all trying to share this vicariously with you, this moment that you have now. And yes, we are all in this together, have been, and will be until it's done, right?

CC: That's right. That's right. And all we can do is support each other. And I think this is a very easy way to do that.

CO: Colette, it's great to talk to you.

CC: Thank you Carol.

CO: And I'm happy that you're going to finally be able to see that grandson.

CC: So am I. I'm so excited.

CO: Take care.

CC: All right. Thank you.

CH: Colette Cameron is the executive director of the centre at Sherbourne Place, a long-term care centre in Toronto. And you can find more on this story on our webpage at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Brexit Deadline

Guest: Molly Scott Cato

CH: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said it often he was going to get Brexit done. Problem is, he hasn't yet, at least not the way he promised. Yes, the U.K. is set to leave the European Union's single market for good on January 1st. But a trade deal with the Union is proving a major sticking point. Mr. Johnson has been in furious negotiations with the E.U. and if they fail, the UK must contemplate the cliff edge of a no-deal Brexit. For some, this last minute crisis was entirely predictable. In fact, UK Green Member of European Parliament Molly Scott Cato predicted it. Here's an exchange from November 2019 in the European Parliament between Brexit party MEP Robert Rowland and Molly Scott Cato.

ROBERT ROWLAND: I'd just like to ask Mrs. Scott Cato what empirical proof she has that the end of the transition period when we will be leaving the European Union hopefully on a Canada plus style trade deal, will result in a cliff edge when, as far as I'm aware, she does not have any degree in economics. So maybe she has some business experience that will give some empirical proof that that would be the case.

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Obviously, you haven't been paying much attention to my CV because I was and I remain a professor of economics. [Crowd applauds] I also have expertise in trade policy and have been studying the trade negotiations from the beginning. I rely on the expertise of other trade experts, all of whom have said it takes much longer than the time available to negotiate a treaty. And the likelihood is if we go ahead with Boris Johnson's deal, we will end up in exactly the same crisis facing a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020.

SPEAKER: I think Mr. Rowland stands corrected.

CH: That was UK Green MEP Molly Scott Cato speaking at the European Parliament in 2019. Ms. Scott Cato is now a former MEP but is still a professor of economics. We reached her in Stroud, England.

CO: Ms. Scott Cato, when you hear that clip from a year ago, is it tempting to say "I told you so?"

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Well, it certainly is, isn't it? It's tempting for me to say you should have called me Professor Scott Cato, but I'm absolutely cool about that. But no, I think last year when people heard that, they found it amusing because of the put down. This year, you know, they're saying, yeah, God, you were absolutely right. But the surprising thing is, you know, everybody should have known this was going to happen. That's the thing I find frustrating, that there's so much ignorance, especially in this country, because it's so ideological here that people don't really understand what's going on.

CO: What do you think made the members of the Conservative Party and the Brexiteers? What made them so confident that getting this trade deal with the EU was going to be a piece of cake?

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Well, I think they believe their own fantasy. And that's been the problem with Brexit from the start. You know, they start off saying the European Union is an unelected bureaucracy and, you know, we'll get a trade deal in an afternoon and they make up slogans like that to win the referendum in 2016. But then they're looking at the reality of the situation, which is that they've won the referendum based on untruths and then they have to try and make the best of it. So they then try and convince the rest of us that what they were saying then was true. And when they confront the reality that actually the EU is a very democratic and very well organised series of institutions, and it's not just going to roll over and give them a trade deal in the afternoon, then they just end up looking a little bit embarrassed. But they have to maintain the fiction, otherwise they look like liars. So, I mean, it's just an unholy mess, really.

CO: But it's also in the European Union's interest to have negotiated deals and not to not have a no-deal Brexit.

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: That's right. A no-deal Brexit will damage both sides. But the point is that the EU has put its political objectives of maintaining the European Union and its single market above the economic damage. That's the problem. And the British government didn't believe that was the case. And to be honest, anybody that knew even a little bit about how the European Union works, that was obviously going to be the case. I mean, if Brexit was partly an attack on the European Union by people who for various reasons didn't want it to succeed. And so European Union was clearly going to defend its individual member states and their shared market against Brexit and against a destructive UK. And so, you know, it was going to be very hard to trade do right from the start. And certainly it was always going to be impossible to be inside that single market unless you're prepared to stick to the rules of that single market.

CO: But Boris Johnson believes he's making progress now. And both the EU and the UK are saying, well, there's still is a narrow path to success here. What are the main sticking points? What does prevent the path at this point?

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: I think the fishing discussion has always been a bit of a red herring, if you'll pardon me. And the main sticking point has always been that one around is the UK prepared to stick to single market rules? And the ideological commitment to sovereignty by the Brexiteers has always been a blockage to a trade deal because a trade deal is about giving away some sovereignty to get trading advantages and both sides give away some sovereignty in order to trade more openly together. And so if you keep sticking on this thing of sovereignty, you're making a trade deal very difficult. And really, I mean, whether or not we get to do it depends on whether Johnson caves in on that issue of sovereignty.

CO: But how does Boris Johnson do that and go back to the people that supported this, who voted for it? The whole sales job was that they were going to take back control. That was the whole point of it, wasn't it?

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Yeah, exactly. But you see, they said we could take back control and still have this great trade deal. We could have our cake and eat it. So you're right, I think it's incredibly difficult now for him to convince the more strident Brexit is in his party and after all, the more reasonable Tories were all kicked out before and during the last election. So, yeah, I agree -- it's a very hard sell for him. I mean, he could get it through parliament because the chances are Labour will either vote for it and certainly abstain and not block it. So I think he'd get the numbers. But what does his future look like as a prime minister if he's kind of sold out on his main selling point from the last election? I mean, it's very difficult.

CO: A lot of the language that's part of these negotiations is pretty complex. But there are some issues that are, I think, worth exploring with you. And that's something called the ratchet clause that seems to be very important to the EU. Can you tell us a bit about that?

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Well, I think what's meant by that is that if the EU then strengthens protections, for example, banning glyphosate, then the UK would also need to ban glyphosate. And if it wasn't prepared to do that, then goods traded into the EU market, which were perhaps produced more cheaply because they have been produced using glyphosate, they would then need to pay a tariff when they went into the EU market. So that would be like a ratchet clause with a sort of specific tariff requirement if the UK didn't keep up with the ratcheting up of EU standards.

CO: Isn't that the case, though, that no matter deal or no deal, a lot changes for your country come January 1st, how will it be different that morning of New Year's Day?

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: There is a big difference because I represent a farming area or represented a farming area here in southwest England. So people producing cheese might be facing tariffs of 40 percent. It might be even higher if you're a lamb farmer or beef farmer for your exports into the European Union and lamb farmers export, you know, 60-80 percent of what they produce into the European market. So that's the end of their business, basically. And then there'll be lots of complications for us as ordinary citizens. So, you know, we've just celebrated giving up free movement, which I find a completely bizarre concept because I rather like being able to move freely through my own continent. But that means, for example, we won't have free health insurance that we used to have as EU members. That's particularly bad for people with pre-existing and chronic health conditions will also have to get special car insurance, whereas at the moment we can just drive. We have to get an international driving permit as well. So there's a whole raft of restrictions really or additional checks that will have to go through when travelling in our own continent. It's basically a tragedy as far as I can see.

CO: Professor Scott Cato it is good to talk to you. Thank you.

MOLLY SCOTT CATO: Thank you.

CH: We reached former UK Green MEP Molly Scott Cato in Stroud, England.

[Music]

Peace Tower Flag

Guest: Stu Rathbone

CH: Stu Rathbone has a very large, very patriotic dilemma on his hands. Mr. Rathbone is a Canadian Forces veteran who lives in Ottawa. Last week, he put up a Facebook post that read in part, "In 2006, there was a story on the local news which mentioned any Canadian citizen could apply for a flag which has flown on the Peace Tower at Parliament Hill. I thought that would be cool to get. So I went to the website and applied." Well the flag arrived today. We reached Stu Rathbone in Ottawa.

CO: Stu, what was it like to finally get this flag?

STU RATHBONE: Well, I had I forgot I applied for it. [Chuckles] It's been so long. It came in a Purolator envelope and ended up on the front door. And I opened it up and saw the flag and just thought, this is amazing. I didn't think it was ever going to happen in my lifetime. So, yeah, it was a thrill.

CO: Well, we know what it looks like. It's the Canadian flag. But how big is it?

SR: It's seven and a half by 15 feet. So we went to get pictures taken with it and found it difficult to hold up and make sure it was dragging on the ground. It's huge.

CO: Wow. And so you've posed with the flag. And did you go back to Parliament Hill with it?

SR: Yeah, I summoned our six children from around the city and try to get as many of them up as we could just to get a picture back on Parliament Hill and then realised -- because the weather was terrible, there was no one there to take the picture, so there happened to be one group on the whole entire Parliament Hill, they were visiting from London, Ontario, and they agreed to take the pictures for us.

CO: Okay, so you've got this picture with the peace tower behind with a flag up on the peace tower as well. So each time they changed the flag on the peace tower, that flag doesn't get used again, it gets given to a Canadian who has applied for it, as you did.

SR: Correct.

CO: But you applied for the flag in 2006. So it took 14 years before you got it.

SR: It did. And the waiting list now is over 100 years.

CO: Oh, my gosh.

SR: Why did you apply? What made you want it?

CO: Well, I mean, if you just think about the Parliament Hill, I mean, I live in Ottawa, so I drive by every once in a while. And pre-pandemic, there would be hordes of tourists up there all taking pictures of it. I mean, Parliament Hill is where the decisions of this country are made. And it's a symbolic flag, I think. I can't think of another more symbolic flag than any other in Canada. So I just thought it would be neat to apply for it.

CO: But when you see the flag, when you have that in your possession, what does it represent to you?

SR: Well, that's a good question. I've been thinking about it a lot. You know, it's Canada's logo of our brand and it represents every citizen from coast to coast. It belongs to everybody. It represents every citizen who's ever lived or died for our country. It represents the future of every Canadian. I have some close personal friends I grew up with who served in the Canadian Armed Forces, and it's a bit emotional, they ended up with PTSD and two of them have committed suicide and others are still suffering from it. So for the fact that they died for the flag, it means a lot.

CO: What does it mean for your kids?

SR: I think part of the plan with this flag is my oldest daughter is due in January and I think to have had that in our household and in our family might be one option of something to do with the flag. So to pass that on and make sure they're aware of the symbolism of it.

CO: For your grandchild.

SR: Yeah.

CO: Now, this long waiting period, did you forget that you had even applied for it at any point?

SR: I didn't really forget about it because I had framed the original picture because I thought it was kind of amusing, just the 17 year waiting period...

CO: The original letter that you received, you mean?

SR: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it was always kind of there. And then three years ago, we moved to my current residence and the letter was kind of still in the frame and in a box. And I pulled it out and just realised that my address had changed. I said I'd better go and get in touch with them, let them know my address changed and I sent an email and they replied a couple of days later and just said, oh, by the way, the waiting list has been shortened for 15 years. So you should be getting yours in the next couple of months. So that was back in, I think, in May. And again, I just totally forgot about it. I thought, okay, well, a couple of months, a couple of years whenever it shows up and then it just showed up on the doorstep.

CO: You wrote on Facebook that you wanted to know what to do with it. You just mentioned your grandchild being one option -- have it for your grandchild. Are there other options you're considering?

SR: We've been thinking about a few things. I mean, that's one of them. Another one was to maybe it's time to do a cross Canada tour and get pictures with the flag all over the country. I've been in every province except Newfoundland and the territories, so I wouldn't mind doing that. Another option that kind of crossed my mind was I'm pretty involved with a local charity DIFD at the Royal Ottawa Hospital that supports youth mental health and thought maybe giving it to them to auction off to raise money. That's another option.

CO: Have you thought about anything to do with those military friends who you lost, is it possible to in any way have a tribute to them with your flag?

SR: That's tough because there's been a few, so I wouldn't know exactly how to go about that. One of my friends has a twin brother who is also a good friend of mine, who's also ex military, and I thought maybe it would be a tribute for him as well.

CO: That's lovely. Thank you Stu.

SR: Okay, you're welcome.

CH: Stu Rathbone is a program manager with an IT firm in Ottawa. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Cannibal Sandwich

CH: You just moved to Milwaukee and your new neighbour invites you over for a holiday lunch. Over mulled cider, he says he didn't know the people who used to live in your house very well, but that they had good taste. And he winks for some reason. A bit later, he emerges from the kitchen with a plate of something. It looks like raw meat on bread with a couple of slices of onion. "What do we have here?" you ask with feigned enthusiasm. "Wisconsin delicacy," he says, with a disturbing glint in his eye. "Cannibal sandwiches!" You are disturbed, and so is the Wisconsin Department of Health Services. This weekend, it warily issued a warning on Facebook, "Time for our annual reminder that there's one hashtag holiday tradition you need to pass on: raw meat sandwiches, sometimes called tiger meat or cannibal sandwiches. Many Wisconsin families consider them to be a holiday tradition, but eating them poses a threat for salmonella, E. coli, campylobacter and listeria bacteria that can make you sick." Seems like a half baked idea because a classic cannibal sandwich is not baked at all. It's raw ground beef with salt and pepper on rye bread with onion. The recipe originated with German immigrants. No one knows where the name originated, but apparently in Wisconsin it suggests a dinner party rather than Donner Party. Still, Wisconsinites maybe try cooking the meat in your cannibal sandwiches this year because 2020 has already given us all a raw deal.

[Music]

Part 2: Thunder Bay Kentner Trial

Thunder Bay Kentner Trial

Guest: Willow Fiddler

CH: Brayden Bushby hit Barbara Kentner with a trailer hitch. That much was not up for debate at Mr. Bushby's manslaughter trial for the Indigenous woman's death. In 2017, Mr. Bushby threw the metal hitch out of his vehicle and struck Ms. Kentner as she was walking with her sister, Melissa, in Thunder Bay in northwestern Ontario, a few days later, Melissa Kentner spoke to As It Happens and described what happened to her sister.

MELISSA KENTNER: We were walking along there, I seen the car when we got down to Dee Street, it looked like he was going to go straight. But then he turned on to McKenzie Street towards us, and the guy was hanging, like, halfway out the window. And I didn't really think nothing of it. And then I heard him. He swore and says, oh, I got one of them. And then he starts laughing. And then I turn back and I look and I see my sister bent over and she's like, Miss, I got hit with something. She goes, look to see what it is. So I walk back real fast and then I look on the ground and there's a trailer hitch.

CH: That was Melissa Kentner speaking to As It Happens in February 2017. Mr. Bushby's trial hinged on whether the blow led to Barbara Kentner's death several months later. Today, Justice Helen Pierce said Brayden Bushby did cause Barbara Kentner's death and found him guilty of manslaughter. Willow Fiddler is covering the trial for the Globe and Mail. We reached her in Thunder Bay.

CO: Willow, what was the reaction in the courtroom to the judge's guilty verdict?

WILLOW FIDDLER: Well, I did see Melissa not long after the decision was read, when she left the courtroom, she had tears in her eyes. Her other sister, she said, had been crying. I asked her, you know, what the tears are for. She said she was happy that the verdict was guilty, bringing a little bit of closure, not lots to this horrible, horrific incident that happened almost four years ago now.

CO: And what the judge found him guilty of is manslaughter. He had already pleaded guilty to aggravated assault. So one way or another, he was going to have a conviction. Did the judge give reasons as to why she had made that decision?

WF: Yeah, it was pretty established. And there was no argument that Brayden Bushby, you know, in fact, threw the trailer hitch at Barbara and Melissa, as they walked down the street, it hit Barbara in the stomach. It caused her small intestine to rupture. She required emergency surgery after that and ultimately six months later, she died. So the justice used the evidence and testimony from the forensic pathologist who determined that Barbara wouldn't have died if she had not been injured because part of the trial was her previous health condition. So she had liver disease and the forensic pathologist had listed end stage liver disease in her post-mortem report, but had also very clearly said, you know, that she wouldn't have died had she not been injured. So the justice said she was satisfied with the evidence from the forensic pathologist. And then that was, you know, one of the main things, I think that led to the guilty verdict.

CO: Ms. Kentner was Anishinaabe, and the Crown wanted that to be a consideration. To what extent was race and racism taken into account during this trial?

WF: Well, not a lot, actually, to be quite honest. I mean, I can't even recall the justice speaking much to it in her decision today. But one of the things the defence said right off the bat in his opening statements during the trial was that, you know, that this wasn't a racially motivated attack against an Indigenous woman, despite media attempting to frame it that way. You know, I think we all know that that's not the case. I mean, that's just simply not true. When this initially happened and the defence used that in the and the trial, at one point, one of the investigators had asked Melissa and Barbara if they thought this was a racially motivated attack or incident. And Melissa's response was, no, it's just people being stupid. And that was pretty early on. And I remember asking Melissa about that too. But these are experiences that Indigenous people have been having for decades here in Thunder Bay of having items like garbage and pop and other things like that thrown at them as they walk down a street in Thunder Bay from people driving by in vehicles. And these are like seemingly random attacks and they've been going on for decades. And at one point, you know, the city police even set up a reporting line, a tip line to report these incidents and have acknowledged that Indigenous people have been targeted for that.

CO: You mentioned that the family wanted to see hate crimes charges, which never happened. There was also the issue that there had been a charge of second degree murder against Mr. Bushby, which was downgraded to manslaughter. The family was very unhappy about that. How satisfied do you think that Barbara Kentner's supporters and her family will be with the judge's decision today?

WF: I mean, while there is a little bit of relief in that the verdict was guilty and many people, particularly Indigenous people, just don't count on the justice system anymore to serve them. So while I think there's some surprise and even shock at the guilty verdict, I don't think people see it as any sort of justice because like you mentioned, the original charged with second degree murder and that was downgraded to manslaughter. So, yeah, while, the guilty verdict does, you know, give a little bit of relief, people are feeling very much that justice hasn't been served in this case.

CO: The day after Barbara Kentner died, we spoke with her cousin, Debbie Kakagamic, and she told us how moved Barbara had been that strangers would send her bouquets at the hospice. And I just want you to have a listen to that.

DEBBIE KAKAGAMIC: [Soundclip: Tears would silently run down her face every single time I showed her flowers. She couldn't believe that people cared, people cared about her and what had happened to her. People are sharing her story and people are grieving with us, with the family. I think that she will never be forgotten and she's going to live on. She will be a symbol of the change that's to come.]

CO: Do you have a sense that the outcome in court is a symbol of change that is to come?

WF: Yeah, I think so. I think it definitely provides the family and community with some hope. You know, I remember not long after this happened one of the first community events that was held for Barbara, this was while she was still alive, was a rally not far from where the attack took place. And she had just gotten out of hospital and went to the rally. And, you know, at the time, she was still quite not well. But yeah, I mean, you could just tell how touched she was. You know, she had tears streaming down her face and she just couldn't believe the support of the, you know, entire community that was rallying around her. And that continued. And that does continue today, I mean, here in Thunder Bay. And I think it will provide some sense of peace for the family at this point and the community too.

CO: Willow we'll be following the developments when the sentencing happens in the new year. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

WF: Thank you so much.

CH: Willow Fiddler is a reporter with the Globe and Mail. She was in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

[Music]

Dan Roberts

CH: Frontline health care workers in Manitoba will be first in line for a COVID-19 vaccine. This weekend, the province opened up 900 booking spots. And critical care doctor Dan Roberts was hoping to secure one of them, and he did eventually, but only after making 400 phone calls in the span of 12 very frustrating hours. The province says that more than 100,000 callers ended up flooding the line. And Dr. Roberts says there has to have been a better way to dole out the spots. Here's what he told CBC Winnipeg.

DAN ROBERTS: I was instructed to call a telephone number beginning at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning to book an appointment if I met the eligibility criteria.

HOLLY CARUK: And how did that go?

DAN ROBERTS: Not well. It took me 12 hours to get booked. So they claimed that the call centre was running 24/7. But they basically closed shop at four p.m. yesterday and they started again at six o'clock this morning. So I set my alarm clock for 5:55 and began calling shortly before 6:00 and still was unable to get through. I was on the phone for literally 12 hours and so were many of my colleagues and I'm sure many hundreds of nurses working in intensive care.

HOLLY CARUK: Did it kick you off the call at any point or were you physically...

DAN ROBERTS: Yes, I got through. There were stages and then they would tell you they didn't hear you three times repeating the message, saying, I can't hear you. And then they'd kick you off the line. The line would go dead. Then occasionally you'd get through and then they'd play piano music for about 8 minutes and 30 seconds and then they kick you off the line. So that happened to me about probably 75 times.

HOLLY CARUK: How frustrating is that?

DAN ROBERTS: Yeah, it's frustrating. I kept messaging people I report to within shared health to look into this. I got very unsatisfactory answers. You know what they should have done in five minutes a high school student could have told them how to do this, right. So you have 900 doses to distribute. You probably have somewhere between 600-1000 eligible people based on their criteria. So you get the managers of each care service to submit a list of employees that meet the criteria. They have full employment records. This could have been done days ago and then they could contact these people and contact them and make the appointments. That would have been a civilised way of doing it. Instead, they ran what appeared to be an insane lottery. I'm sure there were hundreds of nurses who fit the criteria. You know, they're sitting there wondering they're going to be able to get a vaccine.

HOLLY CARUK: The province is blaming the problem on people who are ineligible, flooding the line.

DAN ROBERTS: That's completely absurd. They don't know what they're talking about, they are completely incompetence.

CH: That was critical care doctor Dan Roberts speaking with CBC Winnipeg reporter Holly Caruk yesterday.

[Music]

Cleveland Drops Name

Guest: Sundance

CH: Another major U.S. sports team is changing its problematic name this afternoon, Cleveland's Major League Baseball team confirmed that it would be dropping the word Indians from its name. That announcement follows decades of pressure from people including Sundance, a Muscogee activist and the executive director of the Cleveland American Indian Movement. We reached Sundance in Cleveland, Ohio.

CO: Sundance, how long have you been fighting to get the Cleveland's baseball team to change its name?

SUNDANCE: I became executive director of Cleveland American Indian Movement in 2007, I believe, and that was my second demonstration, so since 2006, about 14 years or so now.

CO: And now today they're saying that the time has come, that this name has to go. What does that mean for you?

SUNDANCE: Well, it means that the work that we have done in the native community has paid off. It means that 50 years that this organisation has called for Cleveland to change its name, change its logo, that we are finally fulfilling one of our key missions. And so we are elated to hear that they are pursuing the change. Won't be a moment too soon, I might add.

CO: Well, not a moment too soon, but the owner, Paul Dolan, said that it's time, that this name is no longer acceptable in our world. But in the same instance, he says he doesn't know what it will change to or when. That for the time being in 2021, it is going to remain the Cleveland Indians. How do you feel about that?

SUNDANCE: You know, we were not part of that discussion with the franchise. And we believe that part of the reason was our insistence on them immediately ceasing to use the Indians name. We feel that they have a perfectly good name calling themselves Cleveland Baseball until they rebrand. So like I said previously, not a moment too soon and we will be happy when the change finally comes. It's making us a bit wary. These fancy words and no action. Time for action has come, I think.

CO: Now, the reference to calling itself just by the name of Cleveland is similar to what the NFL's Washington football team did, wasn't it? So you want them to follow that same route, is that right?

SUNDANCE: That is correct. And in July, when they announced that they were considering changing the name, we issued a statement of actionable steps and that was point one to immediately stop using that name and call themselves Cleveland Baseball until they rebrand.

CO: There's also this issue that's already been dealt with, I guess, of the mascot or the image of Chief Wahoo, which is on the logo and on all of the merchandise. Can you tell us what that was and when that was actually eliminated?

SUNDANCE: Two years ago, the franchise came out and said that it was time to get rid of Wahoo. This was a gentlemen's agreement between the commissioner of baseball and the owner of the Cleveland franchise. And at that time, Cleveland would not have Wahoo as a logo on the jersey, but they would still sell the memorabilia with that logo in the Major League Baseball shop.

CO: How much support is there in Cleveland to have this name change?

SUNDANCE: Well, I mean, that would depend on who you ask. So sports fans, as you know, fan is short for fanatic. There are many hardcore Cleveland sports fanatics who will resist the name change at any cost. But going out to opening day, as I have the last 14 opening days and talking to many of the fans, many fans think that it's long past due to get rid of the Indians and Wahoo and make this change. So I think that perhaps Cleveland baseball will see its fan base change in some respect.

CO: It's also something that Paul Dolan said in his interview. He said that it was a learning process for me, and I think when fair minded, open minded people really look at it, think about it and maybe even spend some time studying it, they'll come to the same conclusion. Do you think that that's happening? Do you think that people are actually giving this some consideration, realising how offensive it is?

SUNDANCE: Well, I mean, those words are accurate. But what has not been addressed is the hundred years of propaganda that was woven by the sports team and the local newspapers, citing that the name change was somehow a democratic process by Cleveland fans and honouring Louis Sockalexis, who was the first openly native person to play baseball, so, you know, it is this narrative that they have spun in the last 100 years that prevents people from actually understanding what is going on. In Cleveland, every institution parrots the same narrative. It's patently false. But until the baseball franchise says to its fans, this narrative is patently false, fans will continue to believe it.

CO: Do you have a suggestion for what the name should be?

SUNDANCE: No, I don't have an agenda in that respect. My agenda simply is to ensure that the team name and logo does not reference Indigenous people in any way, shape or form.

CO: Sundance it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SUNDANCE: Thank you. Have a good day.

CO: You too.

CH: That was Sundance, the executive director of the Cleveland American Indian Movement in Cleveland. In an interview with the Associated Press, owner Paul Dolan said the new name will not have Native American themes or connotations to it. The AP also reported that profits from sales of merchandise in the future that feature the mascot, Chief Wahoo, will go to Indigenous organisations or causes supporting Indigenous people.

[Music]

Colours of the year

CH: When I close my eyes and look to the year ahead, I see a greyness and also a yellowness and so do the trend predicting hue-reos of the Pantone Colour Institute, who have deemed ultimate grey and illuminating yellow 2021's colours of the year. Each year Pantone's experts pick a colour they say will dominate product design of all kinds, one defining colour -- like last year's classic blue, which they said would instil calm, confidence, and connexion, and highlight our desire for a dependable foundation on which to build as we cross the threshold into a new era. Yeah, I know they blew it. But this year they're back for the win with an outside the line selection of not one but two colours, tones they describe as practical and rock solid, but at the same time warming and optimistic, which I would describe as hedging and at the same time your bets. Twitter users have been throwing their own shade, saying the colour combo is suspiciously reminiscent of a yellow banana taped to a wall with grey duct tape, which is a great snack storage idea, but also much mocked and very expensive work of art by Maurizio Cattelan that may have been viewed admiringly by the kind of person who works at a colour institute. Still, Pantone might be right on the money. Seems unlikely that a cheerful yellow could match the mood of 2021. But who knows? Pigments might fly.

[Music]

Nick Rivers

CH: This weekend, a rescue team in British Columbia received a call for help. A man was stranded in three degree water in Little Qualicum Falls provincial park on Vancouver Island. He was hanging on to a log in an unstable position just upstream from a waterfall. Nick Rivers is with Arrowsmith Search and Rescue. He was able to get the man to safety by going in the frigid water himself. He told the CBC what he saw when he got to the scene.

NICK RIVERS: He was at the bottom of the upper falls about 85 feet down, and he was about 15 feet upstream of the next set of waterfalls.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: All right. So he was actually in the water clinging to this log, was he?

NICK RIVERS: Yeah, he was straddling the log at the time between his legs. Yeah.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Do you know how he fell in? How did he come to be there?

NICK RIVERS: I actually don't know. We didn't have a ton of time that I'd have a conversation in that environment, so I'm not too sure how he got there. I was more focussed on how we were going to get out.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Okay, so point taken. You had to get down to business here. I mean, this was serious. What did you do? How did you start the rescue?

NICK RIVERS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were obviously urgent. We got there right away, opened the truck, grabbed two ropes, quickly got to the area where the fence is that we can see him. The team assembled really fast and we had members building anchors on trees and attaching the rope systems. I quickly got my dry suit on and I have a PFD that has a rope harness built into it. I got that on, we safety check. The system came up with a quick plan. So we were on the same page and then I got lowered down into -- down the 85 foot cliff and into the water.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: So it's an 85 foot cliff you're getting lowered down to, but you're not going down to dry land, you're going down to a raging river in freezing water or almost freezing water.

NICK RIVERS: Yeah, yeah. That's pretty much how that went. Yeah.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Once you got down to the water at that point, Nick, how did you get across to the man who needed rescue?

NICK RIVERS: So that was really challenging. He was on a log that was running across the river. There's another log that was in the water going upstream. My initial plan was to try to get up the log and then jump into the river and let the current take me down to the log he was on. But the water was much too powerful, like I physically couldn't pull myself forward. So I got brushed off the log by the currents a few times and I ended up downstream and I got right pretty well to the mouth of the next waterfall and kicked off the rocks, jumped and pulled everything I could. And I eventually did grab hold of the log that he was on. And unfortunately, that was right where almost the same time that he lost the ability to keep holding on and he came off where he was and he was headed for the next fall. So I just pushed off and jumped from the logs where I was and kind of cornered him and caught him before he went over the next falls. And I just held on with pretty well everything I had to physically hold him in that water until the team up top could pull the ropes in and get us off to the side.

CH: Nick Rivers is a search manager with Arrowsmith Search and Rescue. He spoke with the CBC's Gregor Craigie this morning about the rescue he was part of this weekend.

[Music]

Part 3: Scientists digitally rebuilt the brain of a 205M year-old dinosaur. Here's what they found

More Navalny Poisoning

Guest: Hamish de Bretton-Gordon

CH: It's becoming a lot harder for the Russian government to deny that it was trying to kill opposition figure Alexei Navalny. Two new reports have come out about Mr. Navalny's poisoning in August. The Sunday Times reports that there was a second attempt to administer the Novichok nerve agent after Mr. Navalny fell ill and his plane landed in Siberia. Also, a major investigation by the Bellingcat and CNN has traced the steps of Russian FSB agents who allegedly followed and poisoned Alexei Navalny. Hamish de Bretton-Gordon is a chemical weapons expert whose most recent book is called Chemical Warrior: Saving Lives on the Frontline of Modern Warfare. We reached him in Salisbury, England.

CO: Hamish it was shocking enough to learn that Alexei Navalny had been poisoned once on that flight. But now it seems that his agents tried it again -- it seems amazing. How is it possible?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, it seems pretty incongruous. Nobody can quite believe it. Either, the Russian secret service, FSB, who've been alleged to have committed this crime or are completely incompetent or they just don't really care what's happened. It does seem pretty clear and that is what the German Secret Service is saying, is that just before getting on the flight to Berlin, he was poisoned with Novichok again, having survived the first attempt to kill him with Novichok a couple of days previously.

CO: Where did this happen?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, initially he was poisoned, we believe, in his hotel room. When he was on a flight to Moscow, the pilot decided to divert because he became seriously ill. I understand, again, I think this is coming out of German intelligence that actually the airport at Omsk where the plane diverted to had actually told the pilot not to land there because the airport was shot apparently again through Russian Secret Service direction. Then when it became apparent that he was going to be sent to Berlin to hospital, there seems to be a lot of very good intelligence around from Bellingcat and also the German Secret Service that he was poisoned again and presumably on that flight from Russia to Berlin. He was administered with probably more atropine and other antidotes, which is why he's still alive today.

CO: But how did the agents get access to him? How is it possible if he's under doctor's care and everyone knows what's happened at this point, who and how could they possibly do this?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, we're talking about Russia here. We're not talking about how countries like Canada and the UK and the US sort of react to the sort of things I understand from the Bellingcat investigation and also the German Secret Service -- so once he had been diverted into Omsk and was in hospital, the hospital was running with FSB, Russian Secret Service agents who would have had complete access and control to him and presumably having poisoned him a second time and allowed him to go on the Arrow evacuation flight to Berlin, they assumed that this time he would be dead. But I think what they probably learnt is from the Sergei Skripal Novichok attack here in Solsbury, from where I'm talking to you from the medics in the UK learnt an awful lot about Novichok and how to treat people. And no doubt that was passed to the German authorities. So presumably once he was airborne on his way to Berlin, they were able to administer the antidotes that ultimately left to his recovery and apparent full recovery.

CO: It's astonishing that he's still alive, isn't it?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, it is. It is absolutely astonishing. And many you know, a lot of the treaters and those people who want to spend propaganda sort of suggesting how on earth could he have survived what is thought to be one of the most deadly chemicals ever man made. But we have learnt an awful lot from the attack of Sergei Skripal. And I'm sure that information, the medical information was shared with the Germans and other NATO countries so that when he was in the hands of the German medics that they could make sure that he had a good chance of survival. I think originally it was probably accidental that the Russian medic injected him with atropine, which seems to have been the thing that kept him alive long enough so that western medics could help him out.

CO: We're also learning today through these investigative reports that there appears to be a secretive Russian Federal Security Service. FSB group, called the Toxins Team, whose job it is to be dispatched to do these poisoning. There's a lot of people who were pursuing Mr. Navalny, weren't they?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, that's right. The Bellingcat report is very very very detailed indeed. And it was only two or three weeks ago that Bellingcat actually uncovered that the Russians still have a chemical weapons program. They had declared to the UN and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons back in 2017 that they had destroyed all their chemical weapons and they didn't have a program. We now know that this Novichok program, which is designed to overmatch NATO defensive capabilities, is still ongoing. And that is a huge concern, I think, for all NATO countries and all those who are trying to make sure that chemical weapons are removed off the face of the earth.

CO: Russia, of course, continues to deny that it has anything to do with this and has all kinds of other explanations why people keep getting poisoned. But do you think that there is enough done by foreign countries, ours, yours, the Germans, to oppose Russia, to take it on for what seems to be quite brazen attacks?

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Well, I think we have really made a rod for our own backs. When there was massive nerve agent chemical attack in Syria in August 2013 when President Assad killed up to 1500 civilians with a similar nerve agent to Novichok. And the international community did nothing despite, you know, there were sanctions levied by the UN. This really, in my opinion, gave a bit of a green light to every dictator, despot, rogue state and terrorist to use chemical weapons. And I expect, you know, the Russians are slightly perplexed and surprised that we're making such a big deal of this. But it is really important and I would hope that, you know, some of the key democratic countries around the world now get a hold of this, make sure that Russia, you know, is sanctioned and pulled up for this sort of thing.

CO: Hamish I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

HAMISH DE BRETTON-GORDON: Pleasure.

CH: Hamish de Bretton-Gordon is a chemical weapons expert and a former British army officer. We reached him in Salisbury, England.

[Music]

John Le Carre

CH: John Le Carre wrote spy novels. He wrote a lot of them. He wrote them brilliantly. And he ensured they had endings that were satisfying, but not always happy. John Le Carre, who was born David Cornwell, died on Saturday. He was 89 years old. His novels weren't simple spy stuff. His characters were as richly complicated as his plots, which was why so many were adapted into blockbuster films: "Our Kind of Traitor" "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy" and "The Constant Gardener" among them. And the books were constant bestsellers. They were informed, of course, by his own past in the British Secret Service and by another secret he kept for many years and addressed in a 2011 interview with the CBC.

JOHN LE CARRE: I had two great lives that I lived until my father's death. The first was that I'd been in the secret world at all, which in those days was an unsayable thing. And I didn't say it. I just denied it. And then gradually that whole mood shifted and a lot of people who work with me went public and the thing was ridiculous.

ELEANOR WACHTEL: But for decades you couldn't say that.

JOHN LE CARRE: And then I discovered that Sir Dick White, who had been chief of the Secret Service, had told Allen Dulles at that time, the time that spoken from the cold that I was working in that outfit. And Dulles had told his 15 best friends and they'd told their 15 best friends and it had become a farce. So I said, yes, I did it. And I've never discussed the kind of operations I was involved in, actually, in order to preserve my air of mystique, because most of the time they were absolutely trivial and ineffectual. And the other lie that I was living was about my father and the extent to which the manipulations and that whole childhood had really turned me into what I was. I could not begin to discuss my roots as a writer until I was able to say with Graham Greene, a childhood is the credit balance of the author. And by those standards, I was a millionaire. I had this extraordinary father. And this amazing theatrical company of associates. I mean, many of the people who worked with him later being in prison with him. And like many prisoners of that sort of the middle classes, they were amusing, wicked. And so I had this sort of extraordinary Dickensian company all around me. And the humiliations and the anger and the ambitions of a middle class boy trying to be a middle class boy without any of the ordinary human warmth of street life, because we are constantly moving around, and driven into isolation, which is wonderful to fertilise the imagination. And I think that without those early privations and excitements, I wouldn't have been the writer that I became.

CH: John Le Carre, who was born, David Cornwell, speaking with Eleanor Wachtel on Writers and Company in 2011 about his con man Father, Ronnie, and about his own years as a spy. Mr La Carre died Saturday from pneumonia. He was 89.

[Music]

Todd Doherty

CH: Canada is one step closer to getting an easy to remember suicide prevention helpline number. With a growing rate of suicides during the pandemic, a British Columbia MP put forward a motion on Friday to improve the process and consolidate all suicide crisis numbers across the country. So instead of calling the current 10 digit number, it'll be something like 911. 988 will be the direct line for immediate care. Todd Doherty received unanimous support from Parliament for his bill. Here he is sharing the story on Daybreak North this morning.

TODD DOHERTY: Obviously, I'm very happy and very proud of our team being able to do that. But, you know, my team got mad at me. And they said, you know, you should be more excited. And it's no different than when we passed our PTSD deal -- I think about the people that I have sat with, the families that have been left behind to pick up the pieces due to suicide, I think about the people that are still struggling silently and that have said thank you. And then my thoughts turned to my friend and other close friends that have committed suicide. And I just wish that it had been done before. I can't even tell you how many countless families that have sat beside or sat with teenagers that think that suicide is the only way out of their lot in life, children. It's very painful. And the pain, the anguish, the guilt, the questions that never goes away.

CAROLINA DE RYK: How do you hope that those three single numbers will help the people that you speak of who are facing such a crisis?

TODD DOHERTY: You know, when it comes to mental health, mental illness, mental injury, we have to do everything in our power to remove the barriers for someone to seek help. We know that if we're in a personal emergency in terms of do we need police, fire or ambulance, that help is just minutes away, right. And the same should be said is if somebody is in a mental health crisis, help should only be treated this way. Not a complicated 10 digit phone number, not a directory. The last thing somebody wants to do when they're calling and they're ready to seek help is to be put on hold or to press one for this or press two for this. They need to hear a voice on the other end and they need to know that that voice carries.

CH: That was Todd Doherty, Conservative MP for Cariboo-Prince George. He was speaking with Carolina de Ryk today on Daybreak North. If you're dealing with thoughts of suicide. You can call the Canada Suicide Prevention Service at: 1-833-456-4566 for help.

[Music]

Dino Brain Rebuilt

Guest: Mike Benton

CH: Some 205 million years ago, the dinosaur known as Thecodontosaurus -- a lot of syllables -- or the socket tooth lizard, which I prefer, roamed what is now England. But it's long gone. And as you'd expect, it took its brain with it. But now, thanks to technology, researchers say they've been able to digitally rebuild the brain of this dino, which has helped them learn more about its diet and its posture. Professor Mike Benton is one of the co-authors of a new study on Thecodontosaurus, published today in the Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society. We reached him in Bristol, England.

CO: Mikec, why did you want to get inside the brain of a dinosaur and find out what it was thinking?

MIKE BENTON: I think I'm very excited about interpreting the way dinosaurs lived using modern technology. And when I began in the field, you would poke around with needles and try to get the information in a kind of solid rock form. And in this case, we were able to CT scan the skull of this early dinosaur and that revealed a lot of the details of the brain. And the fact is that the brain, in fact, fits quite tightly inside the skull, even in humans and in dinosaurs as well. So you can actually see individual nerves and other other very detailed structures.

CO: Thecodontosaurus is the dinosaur you were looking at. Can you describe what it would have looked like?

MB: Yes. So we were very interested in this dinosaur because it's one of the first dinosaurs on Earth that dates from the Triassic period at something like 205 million years old. Remember, dinosaurs died about 66 million years ago, so this is way, way older than those very last ones. It's a two legged dinosaur. It's about the size of a 10 or 12 year old child, small head, beady eyes, I suppose, little teeth, long neck. Now, the reason we were interested in Theco was that it's a plant eater or so we thought. It's a kind of ancestor of brontosaurus and diplodocus and all those giant long tailed, four legged monsters of the Jurassic. And we wanted to test anything from the brain that would tell us about its behaviour, its posture, its diet. You know, was it quadrupedal or bipedal? Did it eat simply plants or could it eat flesh? Anything else about its communication, the way its brain worked. All of those kinds of questions.

CO: Since you now have been able to figure out what its brain looked like or as it filled that cavity, did you learn anything about Theco that you didn't know before?

MB: Yes. So we've been able to test a few things and resolve a few things. So people may know that in attach to the brain in the inner ear, we have an organ called the semicircular canals and these help us in balance. Now, Theco had a fantastically well developed set of the semicircular canals at each side of the brain beautifully preserved inside the bone, and they indicate that it was almost certainly a biped. In other words, walking on two legs. So that's one thing. Another one is that there's an area of the brain associated with that called the flocculus. And this is very well developed in Theco. And that's also associated with balance, but also the posture of the head and maintaining a kind of steady gaze. So people may know -- I don't know if you've ever tried this, but if you if you can get a friendly owl and you just hold the owl gently, of course, and it's looking at something with those great big eyes, as you turn the body, the head keeps riveted as if it's tied to the object it's looking at. And that's very useful if you are a predator, it means you can be swooping through the woods as owls do. And so it seems this dinosaur could do the same thing. And therefore that suggests to us it was still probably a bit predatory. It was kind of crossing over in the diet. And we were also able to measure its hearing acuity and we were able to calculate the range of hearing. And this suggests that it matched that of a lot of social birds today. So this suggests to us that these small dinosaurs were hopping around, chirping to each other 200 million years ago.

CO: This is building a picture of this dinosaur about the size of a child on his two legs or her two legs eating vegetables, but every now and then getting interested in some meat and having bit of a social life.

MB: Yeah, why not? And this may seem as if we're pushing you know, this is 200 million years old, we don't have a time machine. But we can do CT scans and the quality is so good you can see individual blood vessels and nerves and all this other stuff. And if you get a good quality brain, as we did here, it means actually you can work out quite a lot. General intelligence, not much. [Laughter].

CO: Well it's a dinosaur.

MB: But hearing, very good. Balance, very good. Vision, very good.

CO: Do you think that they evolved to eating meat at some point? Do you think that every now and then they want a little taste of it?

MB: Yeah, I think that because Theco is very close to the oldest known dinosaur, it is very close to the ancestral dinosaur, we're pretty certain that the original, the very oldest dinosaurs were entirely meat eating because meat eating is by far the most efficient strategy for an animal. The cow has to eat 10 times as much as the lion to get nutrition. So we think the meat eating is primitive and this thing is in transition to being part meat eater, part plant eater.

CO: Do you think you can use this technology to get inside the thinking of other dinosaurs?

MB: Yes, I think so. And I think people have already studied the brains of T-Rex and various other dinosaurs. It requires a very good quality specimen because actually most of the skulls that we collect tend to be crushed. So you need an un-crushed one. But already people have studied other dinosaurs and certainly determined that none of them are very brainy. Probably the brainiest of all is Troodon, which happens to come from Canada as it may be.

CO: So we know the dinosaurs might have been very fast, but they weren't swift.

MB: That's probably true. They were good enough for their day.

CO: Mike it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

MB: Thank you. Pleasure.

CH: Mike Benton is a professor of vertebrate palaeontology at the University of Bristol. That's where we reached him. And to see some pictures from the study he co-authored, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Charley Pride

CH: He often played it down, but the late Charley Pride was a true country music pioneer. Mr. Pride died this weekend of complications from COVID-19. He was 86. He was one of the first Black superstars in a genre historically dominated by White people. During his career, Charley Pride racked up dozens of gold records and a trophy case full of awards. He had received a lifetime achievement award from the Country Music Association just last month. In countless interviews he was asked how race had affected his career. Here he is speaking with NPR's Lulu Garcia-Navarro in 2017.

CHARLEY PRIDE: I never seen nothing but the staunch American Charley Pride. But see, they use different description, they'll say, well, Charley, how did it feel to be the Jackie Robinson of country music? Or, Charlie how does it feel to be the first coloured country singer? How did you feel to be the first Negro country singer? How does it feel to be the first Black country singer? So it don't bother me other than I have to explain it to you how I manoeuvred around all these obstacles to get to where I am today. So I like to clear that up because like, I've got a great grandson and daughter and they're going to be asking him that too if we don't get out of this crutch we've all been in all these years of trying to get free of all of that, you see. Y'all, them, and us.

CH: Tributes for Charley Pride have been pouring in from country music giants like Dolly Parton, and Loretta Lynn. And Hootie and the Blowfish frontman turned country solo artist Darius Rucker tweeted, "My heart is so heavy. Charley Pride was an icon, a legend, and any other word you want to use for his greatness. He destroyed barriers and did things that no one had ever done. But today I'm thinking of my friend. Heaven just got one of the finest people I know. I miss and love you CP."

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December 14, 2020 Episode Transcript

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