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The Current Transcript for December 1, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: This fall economic statement outlines the Government of Canada's measures to fight and defeat COVID-19, to support Canadians through this crisis and to rebuild Canada's economy once the virus is beat.

MATT GALLOWAY: Unprecedented times call for unprecedented government spending and unprecedented levels of debt. Yesterday, the finance minister tallied up the cost of fighting COVID-19 and promised to support Canadians, no matter the final tally. In his only English language interview on the fiscal update, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is here in an hour to explain what that looks like as the pandemic surges and what the plan is for the vaccines that could get us out of this mess. Also this morning.

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VOICE: It's a storm, I guess, to be giving these things and not knowing exactly the entirety of what I'm doing and like how much it means for each person that's getting one.

MG: For those who find themselves homeless in the midst of a pandemic, the work of a carpenter creating makeshift sheds to be used as shelters seems like a gift. Less so, perhaps for Toronto officials who say those shelters are unsafe. In 30 minutes, how COVID has exacerbated homelessness across Canada and what isn't being done to address it. Plus, your reaction to yesterday's conversation with former MP Lisa Raitt on her role as caregiver to her husband, now suffering with young onset Alzheimer's. We start though with what has been called the she-cession and whether yesterday's fiscal update will spur a she-covery. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Why 'traditional' measures won't help women's post-pandemic economic recovery

Guests: Janel Sherise, Dawn Desjardins, Anjum Sultana

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VOICE: Mr. Speaker, we know that COVID-19 is rolling back many of the gains Canadian women have fought for and won in my lifetime. That is why today, as part of our commitment to an action plan for women in the economy, we are laying the foundation for a Canada wide, early learning and child care system.

MG: The finance minister, Chrystia Freeland, yesterday announcing plans for a national child care system. The measure is aimed at helping women get in and stay in the workforce.

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VOICE: I say this both as a working mother and as a finance minister, Canada will not be truly competitive until all Canadian women have access to the affordable child care we need to support our participation in our country's workforce.

MG: This pandemic has caused what many are calling a she-cession: women forced out of the workforce to take on childcare or because of shutdowns in female dominated industries. A report by RBC in July found that 1.5 million women lost their jobs in the first two months of this pandemic. And now the recovery is not happening equally between men and women. Janel Sherise is one of the many Canadian women now out of a job because of the pandemic. She's an entrepreneur and a hairstylist in Mississauga, Ontario. Janel , good morning.

JANEL SHERISE: Good morning.

MG: What happened to your job as a hairstylist?

JANEL SHERISE: Honestly, with me being having my son a year ago and being on maternity leave, as soon as my maternity ended, it was the pandemic and now I was stuck in between. What do I do next? I don't have an income and I have to pay for daycare if I wanted to go back to work. But it was just it's just not feasible.

MG: Can you walk me through that decision of not returning to work after maternity leave? Because, as you say, you're trying to figure out, you know, whether the numbers work out for you. What was that decision like for you to make?

JANEL SHERISE: It was frustrating, to be honest. It was very frustrating because I'm used to being in the workforce and helping to provide for my family. But now I have to think of, OK, we're in a pandemic. It's very serious. Do I put myself or my son at risk just to make some money or do I just have to just stick it out and just hope for the best?

MG: Would you have ever imagined, as you said, you're used to being in the workforce, would you have ever imagined that you wouldn't be in that workforce?

JANEL SHERISE: Absolutely not. I don't think anyone thought that 2020 would have turned out to be this way.

MG: No. How are you managing now financially?

JANEL SHERISE: I'm doing pretty well. I had to just put on my entrepreneur hat and figure out ways to help my family in regards to income, which now that I have a cheesecake business that I have been generating since the beginning of this year, that has been awesome to help me with the income.

MG: A cheesecake business. You have a lot going on and being an entrepreneur and being a new mom is a lot to juggle. How are you balancing those two things?

JANEL SHERISE: I'm definitely working through his naps. That's the one number one key for me. Work through his naps, not sleeping much, getting as much time as I can just to either because he's sleeping or wake up like now I see sleeping do I need to do. And then once he's up, I can be a mom.

MG: Is he a good napper?

JANEL SHERISE: Sometimes.

MG: I mean that's a key thing. If you're trying to bake in between his naps, you got to work fast. What sort of toll, it sounds like, you know, the cliche is you burn the candle at both ends. What sort of told is that take on you?

JANEL SHERISE: It can be mentally exhausting sometimes because, you know, you have this one year old that needs your attention, but you also need to run a business. So there's no in between for you to rest and relax and sleep, and you have to be on the go to make sure that you are tending to your family and you're also tending to your business.

MG: We heard at the very beginning of our conversation, Chrystia Freeland, the finance minister, announcing plans to bring in a national child-care system. This certainly isn't the first time that governments have promised this, but it was announced yesterday again. Do you think that would help you?

JANEL SHERISE: It would help. But I think for me, I'm just more skeptical of we're all in this together. We're all we've never been in a pandemic like this. So everyone's kind of in that trial and error stage. And I don't feel comfortable putting my son in day care with this trial and error stage of how is the pandemic going to work? How is it going to work with having children in day care and just the risk of him, God forbid, catching COVID.

MG: What would it take for you to feel confident in putting your son back into daycare?

JANEL SHERISE: I think if the government just had a solid plan of what's next and having the teachers and everyone who comes into the day-care facilities that are being tested. And it's a frequent thing so that we know that everyone is has a negative, sorry, negative covid result and that everyone would be safe.

MG: We talk about this idea of the she-cession and the disproportionate effect that the pandemic has had on women in the workforce, women like yourself. When you talk to friends, are they in the same boat? Do they find themselves having to make the tough choices that you had to make?

JANEL SHERISE: Yes, absolutely. Actually, all of my friends around me, we're actually all moms now, and we all kind of fell into the same predicament of we just kind of have to be entrepreneurs because we can't go back. And if we can't go back, we've got to make some sort of income.

MG: You have to hustle.

JANEL SHERISE: Exactly.

MG: Is the cheesecake business the the future for you, or could you imagine going back into the hairstyling world?

JANEL SHERISE: Honestly, I'm loving the cheesecake business, so I'm not sure if I'll go back.

MG: People need cheesecake.

JANEL SHERISE: Exactly.

MG: Janel, it's good to speak with you. Good luck.

JANEL SHERISE: Thank you.

MG: I appreciate you getting up early to talk to us. Janel Sherise is an entrepreneur and a mother in Mississauga. My next two guests have each studied the impact that the pandemic has had on women pushed out of the workforce and what it would take to get them back. Dawn Desjardins is the deputy chief economist with RBC. Anjum Sultana is a national director of public policy and Strategic communications at YWCA Canada and co-author of a Feminist Economic Recovery Plan for Canada. Good morning to you both.

DAWN DESJARDINS: Good morning.

ANJUM SULTANA: Good morning Matt.

MG: Anjum, does Janel's experience square with what you have been hearing about what's been happening to women in the workforce through this pandemic?

ANJUM SULTANA: Yeah, I have to say, unfortunately, yes. You know, we talk to communities across Canada, whether in Yellowknife or in Vancouver or in St. John's. And the sad reality is it doesn't matter where you are in the country, the gendered impacts of this crisis have been enormous. And there is this level of uncertainty. We saw, you know, some positive measures in yesterday's fall economic statement, but for a lot of the communities we work with from coast to coast to coast, the question is, is it enough and is it going to get here fast enough?

MG: Let's talk more about those gendered impacts. Dawn, you've been studying the impact that COVID-19 has had on women in the labour market. I mean, across the spectrum, people have been hit by this pandemic. But what specifically is happening with women in the workforce?

DAWN DESJARDINS: Yeah, Matt, well, what we saw initially was women were hit much more aggressively, but they have made up considerable ground as we've gone through the reopening of the economy. But as you mentioned, it's the fact that women work in industries where a lot of personal person-to-person contact, just like Janelle with the hairstyling. These are the jobs that are going to be slower to come back. But it's also what we've seen the data is the fact that women have a larger responsibility for child care. And as a result, we have actually seen women leave the labour force while we've seen men return to the labour force. So it's that mixture. So, you know, that that first hit was very aggressive, saw some recovery, but it's this lingering effect that we're really watching right now.

MG: The statistics around that last point, I think it's hard for people to wrap their heads around. More than 20000 women left the labour force between February and October, while nearly 68000 men joined the labour force. How do you explain that?

DAWN DESJARDINS: Well, I think for women, it comes down to a few factors. As I say, it's the industries and the fact that when we hear the news and we realise that the businesses that women may be trying to get back to aren't opening as rapidly, it could be a discouragement element to that, just knowing that it's going to take a long time and that you may not get back to to your regular hours. In fact, many women aren't working or working less than half the regular hours. So I think it's that and it's also when we looked at the data, it was the fact that women who had children less than six years of age, 53 per cent of those who had pulled up, that's where we saw the biggest pullback. And on that fact, it really is a particular cohort that we noticed women aged 35 to 39. These are the ones who have young children and who are not able to put them necessarily not having access to childcare. As Janel said, you know, that's a difficult situation and so we've seen a large part of that group pull back.

MG: Anjum, if you take a look at the fiscal update yesterday and 100 billion dollars dedicated to stimulus spending over the next three years, what did you see in there that could help women either find new work or get their old jobs back?

ANJUM SULTANA: Well I think first, when I saw the statement, I was pleased to see a recognition of the severe gendered impacts throughout the document. There were the reference, she said. And I think it's really, really important because Canada and frankly, the world has never experienced something quite like this. And so we can't use the traditional measures of investing in men majority sectors because those weren't the sectors that were most impacted. So we can't have traditional stimulus funding in roads, bridges, et cetera. And so what we need is a new playbook. And so when I saw, you know, references to a feminist intersectional response to this crisis, I was starting to see that come out. We're seeing a recognition of the disproportionate impact and some of the things that were promising to see include, you know, 420 million dollar -- 450 million dollars in investing in early childhood educators. So it goes to the point that Dawn was saying around child care. It was one of the biggest factors why women were exiting the labour force and, you know, really being forced out because they could not find child care that worked for them, because a lot of early childhood educators are underpaid and they feel undervalued, and so they're not in those sectors at the rates that we need them. Something else that I thought was promising is, you know, again, a recognition that we need job recovery in ample numbers. So when I hear an investment or a desire to have one million jobs, what I was hoping to see more is how do you actually break that down for at least half our focus on women, something, you know, as an example of this, or is the youth skills, youth employment and skills strategy. So there was an explicit mention, you know, young women in particular have been hardest hit. The woman talked with us. She recession. We can't forget the locked down generation. Young people have been suffering the most. But it was such a missed opportunity in that strategy. There was no explicit gendered focus. They didn't really explicitly talk about young women in the strategy about youth employment and skills. I think something else that I saw as a missed opportunity is, you know, we talk about the sectors that have been hardest hit, tourism, hospitality, accommodations. And we saw a sector specific relief where we did not see sector specific relief is in the non-profits and charities. I think often when people think about nonprofits and charities, they see them as providers of critical services for vulnerable communities. And that is absolutely true. But they are also job creators. There's 2.4 million workers in this country that work in charities and nonprofits that represent 8.1 percent of Canada's GDP. 170 billion and over 70 percent of the workers are women. But we did not see that explicitly mentioned. So where I do see some promise is in the action plan on women in the economy, where, you know, there is going to be a task force that's going to be coming out in the next couple of weeks, we again don't know who's going to be on that task force, but at least this task force is present. What I'd like to hope is, you know, intersectional representation on that task force and also representation from women majority sectors.

MG: Let me ask you this. I was just going to say I mean, there's a lot that you've laid out, but let me go back, if I can, just to the issue of childcare, because Dawn was saying in some ways that that is a linchpin for this. And we heard this from from from Janel as well, that if you want to get women back into the workforce, you need to have a child care system and a childcare strategy that's actually going to work on. Dawn, the minister talked about laying the groundwork for a national early learning and child care system, 20 million dollars over five years for something called a federal secretariat to talk to people involved with early learning and child care. People have been promising a national child care strategy in this country, it seems like, for decades. Do we need more discussion on this, do you think, Dawn or is that kind of not getting to the point of what people like Janel actually need?

DAWN DESJARDINS: Well, I mean, I have to say we're we're in a pandemic. And I think the first order of business really is getting this wrangled to the ground and getting our health situation under control. I don't think, you know, we were going to have an immediate or quick ability to address this child-care issue. I think we have to ensure that a new child-care system is accessible and affordable and that we have high quality and inclusive. So I think, you know, that's a tall order and it's a particularly tall order during a pandemic. So I think, you know, the idea that they have referenced what was happening in Quebec, where they have a system in place that is providing child care at an affordable rate and is accessible, I think these are the things that, you know, there's laying the groundwork. I just think at this particular moment it is very important for us to first, you know, ensure that businesses and households can manage to the other side of the pandemic, but these are the building blocks. So, you know, some people will be disappointed, to be sure. But I think we have to think about it as, you know, what's reasonable to achieve at this stage in the game.

MG: What about to Anjum's point, that, you know, traditional recovery strategies around, you know, massive infrastructure investments, lots of construction, et cetera, that can't be the model this time around, that there needs to be a different approach.

DAWN DESJARDINS: Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. And I think the government is looking at it from that lens, whether it's looking at it from the environment point of view, looking at the child care, they have, you know, a list of things and they've set aside a notional amount of money, 70 to 100 billion dollars, which they will put into place to stimulate the economy. I think right now we're in the mode of supporting the economy. Once we get the pandemic under control, they are looking to pivot to the more stimulative part where we get the economy getting back to its pre pandemic trajectory. But again, it's that first step right now. I think that we're seeing the government concentrate on trying to just get people to the other side of the pandemic.

MG: Anjum, in the last few minutes that we have, if you take a look at getting to that other side, what's at stake for Canadian women in getting this economic recovery right?

ANJUM SULTANA: I think there's so much. Just the future of this country and just the future of families across across the from coast to coast to coast. You know, we'll see, you know, the child care investment that was promising. And that's something we called for a national secretariat to understand how do we actually build a nationwide system that works. So I think this was an important down payment on that and also the investments in early childhood educators and child care centres. But I think it's nowhere near enough what we need to really have that legacy from this pandemic bechild care, a system that works for everyone, you know, child care. Now, the national advocacy organisation calls for at least two billion dollars. And we in our plan called for at least one percent of Canada's GDP going towards early learning and child care. And I think this actually gets us in the right direction. I think, you know, we need to really, as we think about this recovery, we need to start to measure what really matters. Yes, you have to absolutely look at job recovery numbers and we have to look at our GDP. But we also need to look at is income inequality on the rise? Are the jobs that are coming back good, decently paid with, you know, good benefits? And I think, you know, and I saw this in the in the fall economic statement, and I hope this actually translates into metrics that matter, a recognition that we need to tackle issues like housing and homelessness and gender based violence for economic recovery. It actually has an economic impact. So that's what we need to have a recovery that works for everyone, an economy that works for everyone when we start to invest and also measure what truly matters.

MG: Dawn, from your perspective, what's at stake, just finally, if we don't stem the tide of women like Janel, either being pushed out of or withdrawing from the workforce?

DAWN DESJARDINS: What we have done in our past research is to look at what happened if women's participation rate was the same as men and what it showed us is that we would add to Canada's GDP to the tune of about 100 billion dollars. So that's every year. So it's a very material lift to Canada and to our prosperity.

MG: MG: That it's not just, you know, the right thing to do from a rights perspective, but on the bottom line, if you can, to put it like that, that this this will have a huge impact on the health, the economic health of the country as a whole.

DAWN DESJARDINS: That's right.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. We will see whether the she-covery is spurred from what was announced yesterday. Thank you.

DAWN DESJARDINS: Thank you.

ANJUM SULTANA: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Dawn Desjardins is deputy chief economist with RBC. Anjum Sultana, National Director of Public Policy and Strategic Communications at YWCA Canada and co-author of a feminist Economic Recovery Plan for Canada. Would love to hear from you if your story is similar to the one we heard from Janel Sharise earlier, in terms of how this pandemic has affected you and if you've been pushed out of the workforce, you can let us know. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Stay with us because coming up in half an hour, the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, will be here for an exclusive English language interview to discuss that fiscal update and what his government is doing to combat COVID-19. Lots to talk about, including discussions around vaccines. Justin Trudeau here in 30 minutes. Coming up after your CBC News, Anjum mentioned homelessness. The pandemic has only worsened the lives of people experiencing homelessness across this country. We'll hear what's being done to help them. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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Housing researcher says the answer to Toronto’s housing problem is federal funding

Guests: Cathy Crowe, David Hulchanski

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is here with more on yesterday's fiscal update and what Canadians can expect from his government as COVID cases continue to rise. But first, a homelessness crisis in the midst of a pandemic.

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MG: Take a walk through pretty much any city in Canada these days, and you will see in parks and underpasses and in public squares, rows of tents. For people who are experiencing homelessness during the pandemic, housing options are sparse. We spoke with a volunteer from the Encampment Support Network, or ESN. It's a group helping the hundreds of people currently living in encampments in Toronto alone.

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VOICE: I'm Jeff Beurk. Through ESN, like we have access to donations and we've just been come in to the park for a while now, bringing basic things like water, Gatorade. In the summer, we were bringing ice. We bring tents, tarps, socks, sleeping bags, all this stuff that the city is not providing to people that are having to live in a park during a pandemic, during an opioid crisis, overdose crisis. And yeah, and it's just we're just providing, like, basic stuff that people need. The city is trying to make invisible this problem of like a housing crisis and not having places for people to live.

MG: The City of Toronto says there are between 400 and 500 people living in encampments. Outreach workers estimate the number is double that, with some 50 encampments throughout the Greater Toronto Area. Police and city parks officials have from time to time dismantled the tent and tarp communities, citing fire hazards and other safety concerns. But amongst those making shelters and makeshift shelters, there are also permanent wooden structures on wheels, structures that have windows. We paid a visit to the man responsible for making them.

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VOICE: My name is Khaeel Seivwright and this is Toronto Tiny Shelters. I was living in the community in BC and volunteering there and yeah, I was there for about three years and I figured I would build something to stay in. Towards the end of my stay there, I ended up building a small structure similar to the shelters that was made out of two by four with many windows in it and yeah, I slept in it and I got a 15 before I left and it was pretty comfortable. And I figured coming back here that this is something that I could do to help people that I'm seeing sleeping in tents and all these parks. The response from everyone receiving these shelters has been very positive. They've been able to sleep pretty comfortably. I guess it's been nice for a lot of people to have a secure place to put their things and be able to lock them when they're not there and come back. So it's also a sense of security.

MG: Khaleel set up GoFundMe page for Toronto Tiny Shelters. He's raised nearly 200,000 dollars thus far. Last week though, he got an email from the City of Toronto.

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VOICE: I got a warning letter from the city saying, telling me to stop building these shelters and giving them to people and that they will remove them without warning and then charge me for the cost of the removal. It's a little frustrating to get this sort of email, especially after having an earlier email from them asking to do a possible partnership. So it was a little confusing and frustrating and it seems to be working that there is a lot of public pressure and support for these people to have somewhere safe and secure, at least before they get reasonable, adequate housing.

MG: Cathy Crowe is a street nurse and distinguished visiting practitioner in politics and public administration at Ryerson University in Toronto. Cathy, good morning.

CATHY CROWE: Good morning.

MG: What are you seeing in these encampments throughout your city?

CATHY CROWE: I'm seeing a lot of organisation actually very much supported by, as you pointed out, people like Jeff in the Encampment Support Network, the encampments are growing. My prediction is they're not going away. They're not going to disappear. People's needs are huge. Everything from health care to harm reduction to basic supplies. We're seeing that the denial of basic public health supports by the city. So, for example, when it first happened, it took us six weeks to get just two portable toilets put in at one encampment by the city. So it's been very challenging.

MG: Where are the tents in these encampments coming from?

CATHY CROWE: They're coming from massive donation drives that started pre-COVID because, as you know, homelessness has been creeping up and growing across the country and I never thought I'd be involved in doing this. But we we began putting call outs with four tents last year and then more purposefully this year. So huge call outs for tents and tarps and materials to help winterise as well and fire retardant materials. And they're coming from all sectors, from the faith community, from individuals, donations from stores as well.

MG: And I mean, I live in the city of Toronto. And everywhere you go through parks, you go through ravines, through the underpasses, in spaces where there is some green space, you will find tents in many of those spaces. Why is it that as you understand it that people feel safer at an encampment than they would in a shelter?

CATHY CROWE: Well, there's a few things. In January this year, we had 7,500 shelter spaces in the city. We're down to about 6000 now. And that's because shelters have been forced to physically distance, so you know reduce their capacity. So number one, there's no shelter places to get into, but two people are legitimately afraid of COVID. Some of the shelters are like congregate settings with like 40 to 60 people in one space, shared washrooms, shared eating area and it's a concern. So, you know, we've had over 50 shelter COVID outbreaks in the city of Toronto, 50 with about 650 positive cases. I actually do not know of one that's been in an encampment yet. So the whole notion of outdoors, being outdoors is safer, we're being taught that all the time, it's true. It's still dangerous, you know, with the weather and everything, but it's people are feeling safer.

MG: The city of Toronto has raised that issue of safety. And we heard it from Khaleel and talking about the makeshift shelters that he's put together, the wooden structures with the wheels and the windows. The city of Toronto sent us a statement about the encampments that reads in part, "Conditions in encampments create significant health and safety concerns for those living outside, as well as for the community at large. Open flames, generators, propane tanks and a lack of access to water and sanitation increases health and safety risks for those who live outside."How would you respond to those safety concerns? That the city says that these encampments that are being built aren't safe for the people who are living there, but also aren't safe for the people who are living around them?

CATHY CROWE: Well, I think Khaleel is taking great care with his structures to make them safe, including putting carbon monoxide detectors inside and smoke detectors. There are large foam structures like sleeping pods that are being built that are using a material that that meets the material building code in terms of fire safety, people that sleep in these structures are not going to be having to rely on propane and other sources of heat. The other factor is if the city wants to ensure safety, public health safety overall, they can they can do things like provide more portable toilets. The fire marshal could be providing fire extinguishers, safe iron fire urns, we call them. And that was actually recommended at an inquest a couple of years ago, more more outreach funding agency so that we can work more on fire safety. We haven't had a fire for some time now, so I think that's a good sign. And, you know, not threatening eviction of all the encampments would help. But the bottom line is, of course, people do want housing. So we're calling for two thousand more hotel shelter rooms. And for people to be fast tracked into housing, people will go in if they're offered a place inside that safe.

MG: Is it practical to have people sleeping in parks in the city? I know and you'll have heard this as well, a pushback from people who live around those parks who say that the park they feel perhaps might have become unsafe or they feel that the character or the nature of the park has changed. Is it practical in a city? This is happening in Toronto, but elsewhere as well, to have people, sleeping in those parks.

CATHY CROWE: Well, it's absolutely appalling that we've come to this, you know, 20 years ago we had one big encampment, we didn't call it that. We called it tent city and we put structures there. But that was part of a political movement to win housing, which the people won. Right now, every encampment is a sign of a big government fail, like it's just a massive fail both across the country and at the city level. So is it practical? Well, it would be more practical to have housing to put them in for sure. That would be my first choice. But in the meantime, I mean, I've always said that I don't like these temporary structure type things. And I did a total 360 this year when I saw what Khaleel was building as well as others, because we don't have an alternative. We're fighting for an alternative, but really, the encampments are a sign of just a national failure.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, it's a snowy morning in Toronto. Winter is on our doorstep. How well prepared do you think people are for what's going to be a chilly winter at this point?

CATHY CROWE: Not well at all. Outreach agencies are trying to keep their head above water, trying to meet the needs. We're going to need more supplies. This is Giving Tuesday, folks. So support the encampment support network if you can. People are madly scrambling the phone structures that are being put up there like blue and white structures, used body work to keep people warm. So that will help. But we're going to need a lot of support, including food support for people. It's going to be tough. It's going to be a very dangerous winter.

MG: Cathy, it's good to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

CATHY CROWE: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Cathy Crowe, street nurse and distinguished visiting practitioner in politics and public administration at Ryerson University in Toronto. An exact number is difficult to pinpoint, but the Canadian Alliance to End Homelessness says that at least 235,000 Canadians experience homelessness on any given year. And on any given night in this country, that affects at least 35,000 people. David Hulchanski is professor of Housing and Community Development at the University of Toronto. He's been studying the issue of homelessness and housing prices across this country since the 1970s. David, good morning to you.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You've been listening to Cathy Crowe. How does the situation with homelessness in Toronto compare to what we are seeing across Canada in the midst of this pandemic?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Well, I think it's unfortunate, in fact, very disturbing to begin with, that we Canadians have to keep talking about this very same issue in the very same terms, only year by year, it is worse. And of course, it is not unique to Toronto and is not unique to our big cities. Rural areas, small cities and towns, Indigenous villages and so on face the same housing difficulties.

MG: Are there cities that have done a better job in that long sweep of, you know, a growing crisis? Are there cities that have done a better job at managing this?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: The managing it has has to do with what the provincial and especially the federal government will or won't do. And there's not much support or help coming from the federal government. So it depends on each province and city. So, yes, Vancouver and British Columbia stand out a little bit for doing better than elsewhere, but not doing very great, frankly, either.

MG: If you take a look at the creation of affordable housing and I mean, Cathy was talking about, yes, you need more shelter spaces, but you also need places for people to go out of the shelter system, somewhere that can be not just a house, but a home. How has the move toward affordable housing affected the level of homelessness that we see now in this country?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Well, you see, there's a problem with that term, affordable housing. When any of us uses it, what does it mean? The real problem is massive housing insecurity. So lots of house people are a month away or two months away from meeting the rent or the mortgage, especially now compounded by COVID, but even before covid. And for 30 years, we we built about 20 to 25000 social housing units per year that chipped away at need. There were small waiting lists for those units, but as soon as we stopped doing it in the mid 1990s, at the same time we cut back, fiscal austerity cut back on social support, income support. The federal government, cut back on transfer payments to provinces for social assistance and health and those costs were all passed on. So since then, it's just ballooned and we have an alternate universe of facts. I have trouble talking about or dealing with because you hear federal ministers and talk one way about housing and how great they're doing all this stuff for, "affordable housing" and in the meantime, we have what you just interviewed Cathy Crowe about and what people can see on their streets right across the country.

MG: What's a better phrase than affordable housing do you think, given the affordability crisis that so many people are facing right now?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: My broad category is housing insecurity because it's tied in with fiscal austerity, this ideology of leaving it to the market and that's what the federal government is doing by providing subsidies to private developers to build rental. OK, but then they're very expensive rentals. So their subsidies are basically helping market expensive, terribly expensive rentals for these developers. What we're doing right now is not helping those most in need. And that's what we're talking about here and that's the frustrating part. It is more expensive to help those most in need. So with a very tiny social housing sector, we're down at four percent. Our competitor nations and Western Europe, Northern Europe, they're in the 10 to 20 percent range of non-profit or social housing. There's no one right percentage, just that we need a lot more a permanently housing that that Low-Income People can afford. We're always going to have some low income people. Unfortunately, there will never be able to pay regular market rents for adequate housing and a good society. And certainly our nation's wealthiest candidate can afford to do much better. But again, at the federal and provincial levels, we're not doing that.

MG: The federal government put in a national housing strategy a couple of years ago. How effective was that?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Well, that's the what I call an alternate universe of facts. Even yesterday, in the financial statement from the federal government, they keep mentioning their loans, slightly subsidized loans to building expensive rental, which brings down some of the rents in those buildings a little bit. That isn't helping, that isn't achieving anything significant. We already have a lot of condominiums for rent, for example, but is the cheapest option. It allows them to have ribbon cuttings with the premier and the mayor and you've seen all the photographs all the time. But of the people in those tents and the people who are a month or two away from paying their rent or their mortgage won't be able to afford any of those units. And so I see it mainly as a public relations effort to make it appear they're doing something because to do the real thing means doing it.

MG: For years advocates have said that one of the ways out of this is that you declare housing a human right, that you say the people have the right to have housing. And if you do that, then that puts the feet of government officials to the fire.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: It only matters if it's a justiciable right, if you can go to court and to enforce it. So if you're homeless and I wrote an affidavit, part of an effort to do that, it was shot down early on by the courts, it's called the social and economic right. Do we have those rights or not? And we apparently don't in Canada, as some of us think it is in the charter, but not clearly so. And Matt, you interviewed the prime minister a week after the national housing strategy came out.

MG: And asked him that whether he would make it a human right.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Absolutely. And I have his answer in front of me. I think that's a conversation that people should have a decade from now, a few decades from now. And then you asked why a few decades from now and so. They're not willing to do it. It's expensive. There's no votes in it. We have a first past the post electoral system. The parties chase the marginal voter. They know what seats are relatively safe and which ones are not. And so even yesterday, they promised more money for home ownership of all things, right.

MG: So what's the way out of this then? I mean, is it is it about, you know, the guy in Toronto who's building these shelters for people who are homeless to live in over the winter? Is that the solution that we have to face to this problem?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: So we're talking social change and social change requires what, advocacy and mobilization? And there's quite a bit of that.

MG: And political will.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Requires organizing. In the 60s, 70s, 80s, there were very well organised pressure groups from NGOs, all that to create and maintain the system we had at the time. A lot of that has gone away. A lot of our NGOs are frankly quite passive. All of the polls show Canadians care about these issues. Nobody should be sleeping in parks or in tents or anything like that in Canada. But we have to spend the money and politicianss again going after the marginal voter and our broken democratic system here. There's no benefit to saying, oh, yeah, well, we'll raise your taxes and achieve these things. No, somehow we're going to achieve these things without raising your taxes. And of course, that's not possible and that's not happening.

MG: Who could we steal ideas from? I mean, are there other countries that have managed to get a handle on this that we could learn from?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Yeah, almost all our comparable nations and I refer to, Western Europe and Northern Europe, excluding England, are doing way better than us.

MG: And what are they doing?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Well, they start off first off by having a smaller gap between rich and poor. And we used to have that ourselves only we let that go wild since the 1990s and it keeps on getting worse. And then secondly, they pay taxes. High income people pay taxes. The tax take as a percent of GDP is four, five, six, seven percent higher than Canada. Ours used to be about three percent higher than it currently is. That's many, many billions of dollars. We're not collecting it, so we don't have it to spend. They collect it, they have it to spend. If you spend it wisely, you achieve good things as some of those countries have.

MG: These are big systemic changes, and I mean, the minister who's responsible for this, Ahmed Hussen, gave us a statement saying that they're calling for rapid housing, billion dollar investment that will create and you laugh at this, that he said that this will create 3000 new affordable housing units across the country.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Okay Matt, for the whole country, 3000 housing units, it will take a couple of years. That's good. It appears to mainly be social housing in this case, unlike everything else we're doing in the national housing strategy. But we're going to lose more than that perhaps in the next two or three months. We don't have good data, but the financialization of housing, there's so much wealth in the country and in the world. People will want to invest in something safe and it's real estate. So these big pools of money buying up, frankly, some pretty crappy rental housing I didn't think investors would be interested in. But of course, you play games with it. Right? Marginal renovations or something and do your best to evict people or encourage them to leave in various ways. And most provinces allow, well, they all do the next tenant to pay any rent, right, whatever it can be. See the rental market is not a market in the sense of supply and demand. There's demand, but much of demand is need, not market demand. And so that's why it's not being built. And renters have got about half the income of homeowners. So there's a lower income pool of housing, you know, in need of housing.

MG: Is there, just in the few seconds that we have left, is there anything that gives you hope about the situation?

DAVID HULCHANSKI: I don't see a turnaround yet. No, because of the insistence on what I'm talking about, alternate facts and creating alternate universe that our senior political leaders are doing to us on this issue. Housing is expensive. The ideology is leave it in the market, let the market be the market. Let even foreigners buy up rental properties and Canada has one of the softest disclosure laws in the Western world. So we don't know who owns what and this is continuing.

MG: David, it's a pleasure to talk to you. I appreciate your time this morning and perspective on this. Thank you.

DAVID HULCHANSKI: Oh, thanks, Matt.

MG: David Hulchanski, professor of housing and community development at the University of Toronto. Your regional update is next. And then, a conversation with the prime minister, Justin Trudeau, about the fiscal update, what Canadians can expect. We'll talk about a vaccine and more. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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Trudeau says COVID-19 vaccines offer a light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s going to be a tough winter

Guests: Justin Trudeau

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Earlier in the program, we discussed an aspect of the fiscal update the government unveiled yesterday, a fix for the so-called she-cession. For a look at the full picture of the state that we are in right now, we are joined by the Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. Prime Minister, good morning.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Good morning, Matt. It's good to speak.

MG: It's great to have you on the program. There is a lot in this fiscal update, and it comes at a time when we are heading into a tough winter. There is the possibility, as articulated in this update of a third wave of COVID-19. What gives you the confidence that the measures that you have announced are going to be enough to help Canadians through this?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Well, from the very beginning Matt, we made a promise to Canadians that we'd be there for them. And we showed that through the first wave with unprecedented support to families, to workers, to businesses. And we put into place actually this past summer systems that would be there for a potential second wave, which we thought might come but didn't know for sure. And obviously, now that it's here, the supports that we've laid out, whether it's support for small businesses, whether it's direct support for workers who've lost hours or their jobs, compassionate care benefits, supports that extend through till next summer and beyond, we have the systems in place to be able to deal with whatever whatever this pandemic throws at us. So we know that the way through is by supporting people and that's how we're going to make it through.

MG: How much of this are you counting on in terms of these measures to to bridge Canadians to the time when a vaccine is available? Is that what was announced yesterday is really about is getting us to that point of a vaccine?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Getting us to the vaccine and through the vaccine and fully to the other side. I mean, even as vaccines start to arrive, we know we have to reach a significant percentage of the population before we can start releasing and reducing measures across the country. So it's going to be, as you pointed out, a long winter. We're going to have to continue to do the things that will keep us safe. But that's why the economic anxiety that people are feeling is something that we're there to counter, whether it's, you know, support. Up to 90 percent of small businesses rent for the for the coming months, whether it's support on the wage subsidy, whether it's direct support to families, to women. These are the things that we're going to continue doing to make it a little bit easier, not just to get through it now, but to make sure that we can bounce back and come roaring back as quickly as possible once we're through this pandemic.

MG: Let's talk about vaccines. We are seeing some promising results coming from several manufacturers of vaccines. But premiers, including Doug Ford and Scott Moe in Saskatchewan are saying that they still need some pretty basic information about what vaccines they're going to get, how many doses they're going to get, when they will be delivered. Why aren't you being more specific about those timelines?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Well, I think that's something we all want to know. But the reality is there is right now no vaccine against COVID-19. Nothing has been approved. Of all the different promising trials we're seeing, there is no approval for any vaccine anywhere in the world. And that's why when you talk about the leading four companies, I mean, a lot of people talking about Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Johnson and Johnson, all four of those companies are now going through the Health Canada process to make sure that when they do arrive, they will have the approval and they'll be safe for Canadians. But we knew that there was a tremendous amount of of unknown in developing a vaccine. So Canada set out this past summer to create the most diverse portfolio of vaccines out there. We have the best range of potential vaccines. And we actually, because we acted early, secured more dose per kid, more doses per Canadian potentially than any other country, because there is such an unknown as to which vaccine is going to be most effective. But regardless of which one arrives first, which is most effective, Canadians will have tens of millions of doses of all the leading candidate.

MG: But that's not what Premier Doug Ford and that's not what Scott Moe are looking for. They're looking for a plan to roll these things out. Doug Ford yesterday went directly to to the vaccine manufacturers to try to get that information. What would it take for you to be able to give more specific timelines to them in terms of how this plan is going to roll out? Because it's not about purchasing the vaccines, it's about getting the vaccines into the arms of Canadians will matter.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Every year, Canada successfully vaccinates about 19 million people against the flu. So we know how to get vaccines into arms. Obviously, this is a significant challenge around mobilization because there's many different types of vaccines with different requirements, which is why we've put Major General Fortin, one of our top logistics commanders in the army in the mix to to get things out there. And we've been working with the provinces since last May on vaccine rollout, vaccine preparations. Obviously, everyone wants to know when this is going to be over, when, how quickly. I mean, that's the question we've all been asking since the spring, when is it going to be over? What Canadians can know is we have the plan necessary to get through this, to get the vaccines here, to get the vaccines into people's arms. And we're going to do with the provinces who who have a high degree of expertise on this.

MG: Do you expect Health Canada's approval to be on the same timeline as the United States? That when the United States approves these vaccines, they will be approved here in Canada?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We're working from the same same data. We're working with the companies very, very closely. But I think Canadians understand that we're going to make the decisions here in Canada. It is so important that these vaccines be safe for Canadians and we're not going to cut any corners on making sure that when Health Canada gives the thumbs up that this vaccine is safe to go and to release into the population, people can know that it will indeed be safe.

MG: How will you determine who gets it first?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: There's a panel of experts who are, you know, epidemiological experts looking at vulnerable populations, talk about frontline health workers, talking about remote Indigenous communities, talking about the elderly or people at high risk of COVID-19 complications. These are the groups that have been targeted and experts will determine which groups get which vaccines as quickly as possible.

MG: And so when Dominic Leblanc says that he believes Canadians, the first Canadians, would get their COVID shots in January. Is that still a realistic timeline?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We're hoping that it'll happen as soon as possible. And that depends on Health Canada, but it also depends very much on the companies delivering the vaccines. Like I said, we secured early contracts with the best portfolio of vaccines in the world for more doses than just about anyone else per capita, which means that when vaccines start moving around, the world will get some in Canada.

MG: In the meantime, we are living with this virus and you urged last month premiers and mayors to, in your words, do the right thing to control the spread of this disease. In some of the hardest hit provinces, you can still go and eat in a restaurant, you could still go and gamble in a casino. Are you confident that that those premiers and those mayors are taking those steps necessary to control the virus?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: My job is not to judge the provinces and their decisions, my job is to work with them to make sure that they have both the information and the equipment to make the right decision. I mean, one of the early decisions we made was that the federal government would be there to directly support Canadians and businesses right across the country so that local public health officials, so that the premiers wouldn't have to face impossible choices between the health of their citizens and the survival of the economy, that they would actually go together. That's why of all that, the hundreds of billions of dollars in support's gone out across the country, eight out of every ten dollars has come directly from the federal government to support Canadians because that's what we can do and that's what we've done to make sure people are safe. Now local officials will make the right decisions for their jurisdictions and they'll be held accountable for that, not by the federal government, but by citizens themselves.

MG: You're confident that those right decisions are being made? Because, again, we know what to do to control the virus in some ways and in some jurisdictions, there is a reluctance on the part of some to implement those measures. I just wonder whether you're confident that those correct decisions are being made?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Listen, again, my job is to work with the premiers. Local governments are elected by people in the different provinces and I will work with them on trying to encourage them and give them the tools to make the right decisions. But it's not a question of the federal government coming in and dictating to the provinces what it is they need to do. We're certainly encouraging people to take the right decisions by giving them the tools and the ability to do that, but ultimately, it'll be on the premiers as to how things actually get locked down and how the course of COVID flows in the communities. I mean, for example, a few weeks ago, the grumbling across the country was we need rapid tests, we need rapid tests for this second wave. Well, about four weeks ago, we started sending millions of rapid tests to the provinces and as we've seen, they've been helpful in some places. Other places have not even used yet. Our job is to get the equipment and the resources to the provinces. Their job is to make sure that it's getting delivered.

MG: Part of the challenge in getting this virus and the economy, I guess, under control is what's happening in the United States. Yes, we're two different countries, but we are so closely connected that what happens there happens here. The border remains closed. What specifically would you want to see from a new Biden administration that would make you comfortable with the reopening of the Canada-U.S. border?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: First of all, in my conversation with the president-elect, we spent much time talking about the coronavirus and talking about how he wanted to to do more and and really step up in terms of their government response. That's welcome news, but ultimately, the decisions around the border will be made on the best interests of Canadians and I think until the virus is significantly more under control everywhere around the world, we're not going to be releasing the restrictions at the borders. I mean, we are incredibly lucky that trade in essential goods and agricultural products and in pharmaceuticals is flowing back and forth, as it always had. It's just people not travelling, which I think is the important thing.

MG: How reassured are you? You talked about that conversation with the president-elect. How reassured are you that the president-elect has a different approach to this pandemic than Donald Trump?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Oh, I think it's obvious that he does, but the situation in the United States continues to be extremely serious. And it'll take a while to to turn the ship around. So we're going to be there to to focus on Canadians while we work with them, on trying to get things back to normal as quickly as possible.

MG: Just finally, 12,000 Canadians have died from COVID19. And despite the help from the government, we're still seeing job losses. You can go down any main street in any town or city and see the the windows boarded up. We're seeing people, we were just talking about homelessness, we're seeing people evicted. We're seeing overdoses because there is a shadow pandemic. There are long lines at food banks as we head into what is going to be a difficult winter, what weighs on you the most?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think you just listed it. The human impact of this pandemic. I mean, yes, you know, a lot of people are suffering and are losing loved ones and are incredibly anxious about this. This is just unbelievably difficult. And to know that we're we're still in for a few more months of this is really tough. And I worry about, you know, our ability to to pull through and confident we're going to be able to because Canadians are incredibly resilient and we know how to make it through tough winters. It's in our DNA and we see the light at the end of the tunnel. We see those vaccines coming. And there is an end to this in sight. But we're not there yet. And my worry is that we just need to hang on for a number more months. It's going to be a tough Christmas. It's going to be a tough winter. But we can get to the spring and it's all Canadians know, we have wonderful springs and even better summers and that's what's waiting for us at the end of this winter.

MG: Prime Minister, thank you.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

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Keeping active helps people with young-onset dementia, and their loved ones, says YouQuest co-founder

Guests: Karin Marley, Cindy McCaffery

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. You may have heard yesterday my conversation with Lisa Raitt, former Conservative cabinet minister, is now sharing her personal story about living with and caring for her husband, Bruce. He has young onset Alzheimer's.

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VOICE: Right now, I'm not going to sugarcoat it, it's, you know, from 4:00 a.m. until 10 PM. He's an out of control toddler with a lot of strength and the temper tantrums to go with it. But you know what, Matt? Here's the thing, this disease is so cruel. If you get 15 minutes of the clarity of what you once had in a relationship with your husband, when you're sitting down and you're watching something, Family Feud on television, you live for those moments and then you almost think to yourself, I can deal with the 23 hours of real crappy time to get this one snippet. But the reality is the stress on a caregiver is super significant and I thought I could just, you know, barrel through anything in life and I'm hitting my limit.

MG: If you missed our conversation, you can find it on the CBC Listen app on our podcast or on the website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Many of you shared your thoughts and your own experiences with us. The Current's senior producer Karin Marley is here to read through some of your comments with me. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. There was a big heartfelt response to this conversation, Matt. Many listeners were very touched by Lisa Raitt's openness and courage to share her struggle. Milt Stevenson writes from Kelowna, B.C. "I'm a retired family doctor and dealt with the devastation of dementia on patients and their families. Lisa Raitt captured the problem brilliantly. Her honesty was humbling."

MG: This from Judy Penson, who was commenting on Facebook. "My mother in law had early onset Alzheimer's. We kept her at home with our family as long as we could, and then we found a good care centre for her and visited. Often it is the longest goodbye. The loss of memories, the blank stare, the inappropriate actions, a devastating disease for the patient and the caregivers. Thanks for sharing, Lisa. This may help others in their personal struggles and help push forward the best research possible."

KARIN MARLEY: We also heard from someone diagnosed with dementia. Myrna is 59 and she writes from BC. "I listened to Lisa Raitt with pain in my soul for both her and her husband. Can you imagine just for a moment what it is like for the person diagnosed with a dementia? Can you imagine how difficult to accept a terminal death sentence of cognitive failure? Can you imagine selling your home because you will be unable to care for it and it might have stairs that you probably cannot manage? Can you imagine telling all your family and friends who will be watching for all the changes that you may be undergoing? Can you imagine the sorrow and the despair you may feel at the thought that this disease may destroy your marriage, your relationship with your kids?"

MG: We heard from many spouses and family caregivers as well. Bruce Rhoads wrote from Richmond Hill, Ontario. "In 2010, my wife Liz, then 53, started presenting symptoms of early onset dementia. After nearly nine arduous, heartbreaking years, she passed away in May 2019. As her caregiver, I experienced many of the stresses and frustrations that Lisa discussed. In my experience, and this is contrary to Lisa's, it did not end up with her behaving violently, although it is true that my wife, during the late stages of her dementia, bit me a couple of times. Further, I am a member of a support group of persons caring for loved ones with dementia, and thankfully not all of their loved ones have behaved violently.

KARIN MARLEY: Iwona Mooney from Statesville, Ontario, writes, "Lisa is just one of many living this roller coaster of never knowing what the next minute will bring. They need better support systems or there will be a tragic end. She has all the physical tools in place, locks on certain doors, cameras, yet she cannot let her guard down, not even for a second. The mental and physical toll on her alone is unimaginable. I managed my late mother's care at long distance for two years, and she was sound in mind to her last breath. I know what those two years did to me. What impact will the years of looking after her husband do to Lisa?

MG: Carol Lee from Carlsbad Springs, Ontario, wrote, "My husband Kevin died on November 9th at the age of 62 after struggling with early onset Alzheimer's for 10 years. He was formally diagnosed only in February of this year. For Kevin, it was increasing confusion and disorientation. Towards the end, his brain couldn't process the signals from his eyes and ears. It was like he was seeing the air itself rather than the physical things around him. And even though he couldn't hear me right beside him, he was startled by noises from far away. COVID-19 took away Kevin's day programs and the possibility of home support, and the waiting list for long term care was years long. Lisa Raitt, if I knew you personally, I'd offer you this advice. Allow yourself to feel everything you need to invent to whoever you can. You're doing your absolute best for someone you love, and that is all that matters." Many people were also struck by Lisa Raitt's comment about cherishing those 15 minutes of normal. Mara Glebov's partner Michel was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's disease in 2013. He has been in hospital in psychiatric wards for more than a year, waiting for a spot in long term care. She describes aggressive episodes and altercations that required security guards, but also some tender moments between them. Here is part of Mara's letter. "I never know what to expect. Sometimes I just hold his hand or I give Michel a little shoulder massage. If he's standing or if he's sleeping, I stroke his forehead and hair. Luckily, he has not responded negatively when I do that. One day, as I fed him his supper, I hummed the last melody that had been playing on the CD. And Michel suddenly said, that's beautiful. It made me really happy that I had somehow touched him. Sometimes I buy a small bag of Miss Vickies potato chips and we sit on the bed side by side and eat the chips. I start off by popping a chip into his mouth. Once he realises what he's eaten and enjoyed, he often starts to reach toward the bag. And then I hand him the chips, which he then puts in his mouth. And so we go. He has one and I have one, until the bag is empty, Michel still gets agitated and a bit aggressive at times and has to be restrained and sedated, but the nurses and the caregivers try to avoid doing things that trigger him. He is on the wait list of a number of long-term care residencies. I constantly hope that he will be admitted soon, but it feels like hoping against hope. What a sad situation. At least he is safe, but I feel so hopeless to bring about change.

KARIN MARLEY: A lot of emotion and empathy in these letters.

MG: Absolutely. Thank you to everybody who wrote and thank you, Karin, for helping us sift through some of these responses.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Another thing that Lisa Raitt said is that one kind of support that's missing in these programs that provide appropriate activities for people with early onset dementia is just the availability of those programmes. A few people wrote in to tell us about local programs that they had benefited from and one that Lisa mentioned was YouQuest in Calgary. To tell us more about it, we've called up Cindy McCaffery. She's the co-founder of YouQuest. It provides recreation programming to people with young onset dementia. Cindy, good morning.

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well and I'm glad that you're here. Tell us what YouQuest does.

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you for bringing this really serious issue to the forefront. As you heard from a lot of those letters, young onset dementia is not rare and it can happen to anyone. We say if you have a brain, you're at risk for dementia. So thank you for that. YouQuest was created a few years ago because my husband came home from the office one day at age 48 and said he couldn't figure it out anymore and he was having trouble keeping his clients at work separate. He had trouble with his executive functions, such as starting on tasks, staying on task, finishing projects, and bosses don't care for that too much. So he called in sick and we had numerous tests that turned out that he has frontotemporal dementia, which means that the front inside lobes of his brain are deteriorating. And that's why he was having trouble with the executive functions. So it's different than Alzheimer's had. His dad did have young onset Alzheimer's, but John's doesn't affect his memory as much. So I would be at the office and John would be home alone in the basement and I'd worry about, is he going to wander? Is he going to burn down the house? What am I going to do? So I wasn't being a very good employee. And we looked into day programs and there were many for senior citizens, 80, 90 year olds, but John was not interested in that. He had been a very active person all his life, a skier, biker, scout leader, soccer coach. So we looked around some more and I was in a support group and we talked about what care partners needed. And they said, we need a full day program because we go to the office, we can't do the 10-2 PM kind of service and we talk to the people with dementia and we said, what would you like in a full day service? And I said, we want to do the activities that we did before diagnosis. So these people are in their 50s and they like to play basketball, they like hiking, they like being in the community. They don't want to be in a church basement.

MG: And those are all the things that they can do through the program?

CINDY MCCAFFERY: That's correct. We were at sate, pre-covid where we had access to the gym and court sports, fitness area meditation and yoga. And of course, they have a wonderful culinary program. And then we would hop onto the train and go on outings in the community to keep them engaged. And with COVID, we've had to leave sate and go to the Jewish Community Centre in Calgary, and that has gone so well that we've been able to start a second day. So we're helping twice as many families. Unfortunately, with the COVID, we have to cut down to just eight participants.

MG: What difference do you see in the people who participate in the YouQuest programs?

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Our caregivers tell us that their loved ones sleep better, they eat better, they're calmer. They're happier because they got to be outside in the sunshine and fresh air with friends. So all of those things make the care partner happier and calmer. And they're at the office like I am, knowing that their partner is in a safe space where they're loved and looked after and there's a lot less stress all around.

MG: I was going to say, I mean, it works for both. It works for the participants, but also and we heard this from Lisa and from the people who wrote in with those extraordinary letters, that being a caregiver has its own weight and has its own effects as well. And so a program like this would help them as well.

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Definitely. I think back to when my mother in law was going through this. Her husband was diagnosed with Alzheimer's at 52 and died at 62 and she ended up dying at 58 because of the stress there weren't services. She didn't want to go to support groups because of the shame and the stigma. So once she had to place her husband in long term care, the guilt really killed her. She went into a room and didn't come out. And now I'm 58 and I don't want that to happen to me or any of the people in our young onset dementia community. What do you do to take care of yourself? I from the very beginning was encouraged to keep up my social support, my network of friends. Even if I don't want to go to the gym, I try to go. That's you know, it doesn't happen very often. It's covid, but book clubs, things like that, and just reaching out to other people in young onset community who might be suffering, because I think that when you talk to other people going through the same thing, you don't feel so alone and you feel like there is some hope. And plus you get to share some of the silly stories that you can't share with your friends at work. You know, there's a lot of times when the person with dementia does things that are kind of humorous and but other people might not find it so funny. So it's good to have that caregiver support for sure.

MG: Just before I let you go, we had a number of listeners who wrote in about local programs. How prevalent are programs like yours across this country?

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Well, I do know that there's one that just started in Ottawa and they had come out to visit our service to see how we did it, and then I did it up at Carleton. But I think with covid, it's suspended for the time being. I don't know of a lot that are exactly like ours. We needed the full day active community based service and a lot of places, unfortunately, you're not allowed to go outside because of the safety issues and they're from 10-2. So I haven't really had a chance to follow up on what other people are doing because we're gearing up for growth. COVID is going to end soon, not soon, but eventually and so we want to be ready. So we're fundraising and we're hiring an executive director, so we're going to be on the mark when COVID allows us to just spring forward, because there's a lot of people that need some support.

MG: It's great to hear about the work that you're doing and important as well. And hopefully people will find the resources in their own communities. Cindy, thank you.

CINDY MCCAFFERY: Thank you very much.

MG: Cindy McCaffery is the co-founder of Newquist. She was in Calgary. Again, you can reach us, we had so many comments from people about the conversation with Lisa Raitt and people looking for other resources. If there are resources that we could share, we'd be happy to connect people through the website, if you just email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. That's how you can get in touch. That's it for The Current for today. Q is up next. They have a week of special programming around mental health and the arts. And this morning you will hear the Calgary musician, author and artist Vivek Shraya. That's coming up. In the meantime, I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care of yourself and each other and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Dec. 1, 2020 episode transcript

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