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The Current Transcript for October 15, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

We want justice for Breonna Taylor, but being one of the rare few African-Americans and I believe our participation brings a strong message.

MATT GALLOWAY: This year's running of the Kentucky Derby happened in the shadow of protests around antiblack racism and calls for the lone black owner of a horse in that race to boycott. In 30 minutes, our election road trip down the Mississippi pulls into the Republican stronghold of Kentucky to talk race, racing and the high stakes in an election just 19 days away. Also this morning on The Current.

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You know, my path is not very pretty, but when I got hooked by mathematics, I learnt my passion for it and there was a transformation that occurred.

MG: Christopher Havens is serving life in prison for murder. He's also a maths whiz and while behind bars, discovered a remarkable aptitude for numbers. Now he's using his circumstances to launch an NGO with a 15 year old student to help other inmates. The amazing story of the prison mathematics project, in an hour. We begin, though, with calls to end lockdowns and claims that herd immunity will end this pandemic nightmare before long. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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Calls to pursue herd immunity are 'callous, dangerous nonsense': immunologist

Guests: Ashleigh Tuite, John Moore, Timothy Caulfield

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We're saying, let's do this for the three months that it takes for the pathogen to sweep through the population. I think almost all mathematical modellers would agree to that. And indeed, that is what we've observed in many countries where it has kind of ripped through. So, I mean, I would be confident and saying that if we adopted this strategy, then maybe we could all have a very nice, normal Christmas.

MG: Professor Sunetra Gupta is one of the people behind what's being called the Great Berrington declaration. She is a theoretical epidemiologist at Oxford University. And to get that nice, normal Christmas, the strategy is calling for the loosening of pandemic restrictions, except for tightened protections for the most vulnerable. The goal here is herd immunity, and that declaration appears to be gaining some support. Its Web site says it's gathered nearly 500,000 signatures, largely from ordinary people, but 35000 from doctors and scientists from around the world in support of this. And The New York Times is reporting that the White House likes what it sees in this declaration, but there are plenty of health professionals who don't. John Moore is a microbiologist and immunologist at the Wild Cornell Medical College in New York City. And Ashleigh Tuite is an epidemiologist and mathematical modeller at the Dalai Lama School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Good morning to you both.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Good morning.

JOHN MOORE: Good morning.

MG: Ashleigh, just briefly, as you understand it, what is the Great Barrington Declaration proposing? I kind of gave that a little thumbnail sketch there at the beginning, but what are they suggesting we do?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: So basically the idea is that we isolate people who are vulnerable. We can talk about how you identify who's vulnerable later on. But and basically let the rest of the population get back to life as normal and let the virus spread through the population, get enough infection so that we build up immunity. And basically, when you reach a certain level of immunity in the population, the idea is that the virus would stopped transmitting. And so that's how vaccines work. And but the way that we do vaccination is quite different from how this is being proposed in the sense that you would have to have a fairly significant proportion of the population get infected with COVID. And because it's spreading in the population, once we reach that herd immunity levels, we still have virus in the population. And so we would have to basically exceed that herd immunity threshold in order to have the virus effectively have enough immunity in our population that we would be transiently at least protected from further outbreaks.

MG: John Moore, what do you make of this? If we let the virus rip through the population, will we have herd immunity by Christmas? A nice normal Christmas?

JOHN MOORE: It's callous, dangerous nonsense. No, no. One of the problems with mathematical modelling is the phenomenon of garbage in, garbage out. And if you put in the parameters of your model incorrectly, you get unreliable answers. This is being hammered in the scientific community I dwell in by people with immunology knowledge, for one thing, because some of the parameters are simply flawed about what constitutes immunity in a population. And even if they were correct, the human cost of doing what they propose to do is terrible. To get herd immunity, which has just been described accurately, we know you can render a sufficient number of a population and in fact double that. You reduce the pool of people targets for the virus. That may be an achievable thing, but to achieve it, you need something around 70 per cent of the population to be infected. Well, in the USA, best estimates are that around 10 per cent are in fact have been infected today, and that's associated with 215,00 deaths. Well, you know, you multiply that by seven and you're into one and a half million deaths. To get to that level would be proportionally the same figures in Canada. And you also have to factor in, if not more than just deaths and COVID is associated with tremendous human costs that go beyond people simply dying. There are survivors of COVID who have very severe medical consequences for multiple periods of time. There are constantly Long-Term influences on health that are still being understood. There are neurological defects. People who are unable to work properly because of, quote, brain fog, it's called. There are people with long term cardiac problems. There are people with a circulatory problems. There are all sorts of medical issues. And the financial cost is tremendous as well. There are families who are devastated by the financial costs of the hospital bills, even allowing for insurance and Medicaid. There are caps on this. Someone I know his father has been in hospital in the ICU for nearly 200 days. The medical costs are absolutely fearsome. So you factor all of this in and you go, well, you know, look, if you got to 70 per cent of the population having been infected, the human cost of that is terrible. So we don't buy it. We don't buy this argument. We think it's just wrong.

MG: I want to talk more about the human costs in a moment. But, Ashleigh, you do these models that help scientists and policymakers see in some ways around the corner and into the future. If you took all the restrictions off of restaurants, sports, I could go to the restaurant. I could go and see my favourite band. I could go and, you know, be in the stands and watch a basketball game. What happens then?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: So, I mean, what happens is you have a large epidemic. So, I mean, I think that the issue here is that, you know, in theory, there's no difference between theory and practise, but in practise theory. So, you know, you can build a model that says, you know, if you have an infectious disease where the entire population is susceptible and you introduce it into a population and you don't do anything, you will have a very large epidemic. You will have a serious, very rapid growth. And, you know, subsequent decline. The problem is that, you know, just this idea of being able to protect vulnerable is not practical or feasible or ethical. So, I mean, you know, for talking about, you know, how do you, first of all, identify who is vulnerable. But even if you were just to say, you know, isolate older people. 20 per cent of the Canadian population is aged 65 and older. And if you think about who those people live with, you know, a lot of people live in households with other people. So those people would effectively be removed as well. And so you're talking about a huge segment of the population who you're first of all, saying, you know, you have to stay in isolation while we run this terrible experiment out. And then you also have the collateral damage of, you know, all of these other people who you identified as non, non vulnerable to me, you know, some of whom will die, some of whom will have consequences of infection and criminal, including long term consequences. And so it's a really sort of you know, even if you were to model this out and say, well, yes, we can in theory, reach this this threshold where we have enough immunity in the population. I don't think that it works in a way where you don't overwhelm the health-care system, where you don't have a lot of gaps and you don't have a lot of infections.

MG: Can ask you about collateral damage. You use that phrase. And that's in part why this declaration seems to be gaining some currency, least amongst certain constituencies, is that they say the signatories say that there have been serious consequences to Lockdown's. You have lower vaccination rates, you have worsening cardiovascular disease. You also have deteriorating mental health, an economy that's been cratered. We spoke with Patricia Daly, who is the head of Vancouver Coastal Health. A few weeks ago on the programme, she talked about the real concerns around another lockdown. Are those not legitimate concerns?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: No, they're absolutely legitimate concerns, but I think, you know, this this declaration is based on this false premise that no governments and the scientific community want these extensive lockdown's to continue until we have a vaccine. And I don't think anybody wants that. We acknowledge that the lockdown's have had significant negative effects on other health outcomes, including mental health impacts. But, you know, the idea behind those lockdowns happened in the spring was to buy us time to improve our pandemic preparedness, to prepare our systems so that we can, you know, navigate the next little while until we have a vaccine in a way that basically balances, you know, community transmission, because we know that the best way to deal with this pandemic is to control communities spread. While also protecting our society and our economies and really, you know, relying on alternate control mechanisms beyond lockdowns as a way to take control spread until we reach a vaccine.

MG: John Moore, how do you, just briefly, how do you work on that balance to balance the risks with the threat of covered 19?

JOHN MOORE: It's very difficult. I mean, the point factually made or absolutely true. I mean, we're seeking the least bad approach to curtailing a pandemic that have all the consequences that you said and that was set in the declaration. This is not something that has a simple overnight solution. The long term solution is an effective vaccine and this progress in that area, but won't be rolled out until sometime around the middle of next year. In the meantime, people need to do the obvious, which is social distance and mask wearing. And in America, unfortunately, that is, it's just bizarrely not. It's a political issue and shouldn't- mask wearing, should not be a political issue, but it's become political. And it's one of the reasons why the virus continues to spread rapidly and will get worse over the coming winter months with a seasonal virus and reduced temperatures and indoor gatherings. It's not a good scenario.

MG: Timothy Caulfield has been listening, and he's a professor at the University of Alberta and the Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy. And he studies misinformation and health, particularly during the pandemic. I wanted to bring him into this. Timothy, good morning to you.

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Good morning.

MG: One of the reasons why it seems like people are paying more attention to this declaration than perhaps they might to some other thing that was being signed on the Internet is that there are prominent, reputable institutions, or at least scientists from those institutions that are tied to this. People from Harvard, from Oxford, from Stanford. How widely are these views shared within the scientific community broadly? Do you think?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: Yes, I think it's really important to recognize as Ash and John have already pointed out, this is this is a relatively fringe perspective. This is a my you know, a minority perspective. This is not something that you're seeing as a dominant theme in the academic literature by any stretch. And one of the things I'm worried about is there's going to be this false balance discussion going on more broadly in pop culture that on the one hand, we have the Barrington perspective. On the other hand, we have full lockdown. And that's the thing I find so frustrating about this debate is, you know, Ash brought this up, is how it's being portrayed as this binary approach, as if countries around the world are all in full lockdown and they're recommending this more laissez faire approach. And of course, that's not the case at all. Governments around the world are already trying to adopt an approach that balances all of the factors. They talk about the economy, the school. My son goes to high school and he goes to a physically distanced high school where he wears a mask, they're trying to balance all of these things already. But unfortunately, what a document like this does, is it really facilitates more polarization in the public discourse. And Matt, I worry it's going to result in more people becoming cynical spreaders, right, you know, where they're not going to wear their masks. We have some data suggesting 57 percent of Canadians have said very recently that they're starting to relax their approach. 23 percent of Canadians think that the governments have exaggerated, exaggerated the risks associated with it. So I worry that that this document is just going to fuel that fire.

MG: Should there be space for dissenting voices in public health? Conversations about how to approach COVID-19, Timothy?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: For sure there should. I think that's a really interesting point. I think one of the things we're seeing unfold here and again, there's some research to back this up is public frustration with science and what's happening. I think as people are watching science happen in a way that they they haven't in the past. So they're they're seeing the sausages being made and they don't like what they see. But this is how science happens. You have disagreements. You have retractions. Some have suggested that. And I'm actually working with the Royal Society of Canada on a piece on this exact topic. Some have suggested that the science has been less than ideal, the way it's been portrayed in this context. Perhaps it has been. That it has been portrayed to the public in a way that, you know, may be contributing to misunderstanding. But this is how science happens. And I think it has facilitated these kinds of declarations and perhaps allowed them to have more legitimacy than they deserve.

MG: John raised the idea of politics and I want to come back to that in the States in a moment. But Timothy, in Alberta, I mean, the premier of Alberta, Jason Kenney, in talking about COVID, says, we're not going to enforce our way out of COVID, that Alberta's approach is to focus on broader health of society by encouraging personal responsibility rather than micromanaging people's lives. Do you see a political element to this here in this country?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: There is a political element. Now the early research said that in Canada we weren't as polarised as the United States, where it's ridiculously polarised. Really interesting research where you they show that, you know, Republicans and Democrats just talk about the pandemic differently. Right. But we we need to recognise that this declaration, for example, came from - the connexion is less than clear, but it's named after a place where a libertarian institute resides. Right. So there is definitely a political element to this. And you see who is embracing, what side of the political spectrum is embracing this declaration is also, I think is also telling. But politics, ideology, as John has pointed out, has become a big part of this story, unfortunately.

MG: John, I can hear you in the background there. Go ahead.

JOHN MOORE: Yes, it really has been. And people who have dug into this have found that the one of the organizations funding the Barrington Declaration is the American Enterprise Institute, which is run by the Coke brothers, who are libertarian industrialists who for whom profit is everything. I mean, they have influence on Republican politics in the USA. They have a supporter in the White House, a guy called Scott Atlas, who's a radiologist and has become the de facto infectious disease specialist advisor to the president, which is just an absurdity. People like Tony Fauci have been sidelined in favour of a guy with a radiology degree who purports to be a world expert on infectious disease. And he's been promoting this herd immunity concept for four months now within the White House. So you have a susceptible audience for this nonsense. And so that it's inescapably interlinked with election politics over here to which everything is. And, you know, as to the signatories of the declaration, I saw in an analysis yesterday showing that, you know, a large number of the actual signatories are fake. I mean, there's Mickey Mouse,.

MG: Dr. Johnny Bananas.

JOHN MOORE: Yes. I mean, there's all sorts of stuff and there's all sorts of trolling. And, you know, there's this myth in the public that everyone with a science degree has wisdom and have specialist knowledge. Well, you know, I could sign a document about nuclear fusion and it would be completely meaningless. That's not where my expertise is. It would not all equivalent. You have to look at whether signatories are really entitled to have an opinion on a topic. And we have narrow specificities nowadays when not polymaths.

MG: Ashleigh, John mentioned the idea of a receptive audience. There is real COVID fatigue. I think it's fair to say and people are worried about winter and worried about the idea of another lockdown, whether it's an extensive lockdown, whether it's a targeted one. Are there things that you're most concerned about when it comes to that fatigue in terms of it being creating the conditions for somebody to buy into what's being presented here to Dubai, into the arguments that are laid out in this document?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I think so. I mean, I think, you know, we all kind of want this magical, simple answer. And that's what this provides. You know, it seems pretty straightforward. People understand it. And, you know, I think the challenge is that people are tired and frustrated. But the reality is, is that, you know, nobody wants to live in a world where we play out this experiment because as scientists know, what happens is going to be an utter disaster. So I think, you know, we sort of need to really focus and bring the conversation back to, you know, how do we get through the next little while knowing that the winter is going to be difficult. You know, I think the one thing that the declaration has right is that we do need to protect our most vulnerable, but we also need to do this in a manner that invests in our public health infrastructure that, you know, considers measures that will control controlled transmission in the broader population. And really, you know, think about and look to other countries who have done this like where we have we had success stories, you know, Japan, Vietnam, New Zealand. There are examples where they've had these very robust public health responses and that's resulted in life returning to, you know, some degree of normalcy. I think, you know, there are going to be setbacks. And I think those countries have experienced that. But the reality is, is that there is a way to get through this, to navigate the next little while, that doesn't require lockdowns and doesn't require us throwing up our hands and saying, well, the virus wins, that we need to just let it circulate in our population.

MG: Timothy, almost out of time, but that media again, you study the idea of misinformation and what's happening with this. Are you concerned that something like this spreads because people are tired of lockdowns?

TIMOTHY CAULFIELD: For sure. And it's really a rhetorical flourish, right? This focus protection idea. It's not a focus group protection strategy. It's a more deaths, more suffering, more health care costs strategy. One of the paradox is, is, as Ashlee's pointed out, we know we know what works if physical distancing masks, being responsible when you have symptoms, contract contact tracing. These are the things that work and we need it. It's not easy, but I know Canadians as a community can come together and we can get through this.

MG: It's great to speak with you all about this. Appreciate it. Thank you. Timothy Caulfield is a Canada research chair in Health Law and Policy and a professor at the University of Alberta. John Moore is a microbiologist and immunologist at the Wild Cornell Medical Centre in New York City. And Ashley Tuite is an epidemiologist and mathematical modeller at the Dollar Llana School of Public Health at the University of Toronto. Your thoughts on this. Welcome. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Go to the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link to reach us. Your CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

Beyond Louisville and perhaps Lexington, those are the last, I'll say, democratic enclaves in our state. Kentucky is solidly Republican.

MG: We are on the road, virtually. And our Road to November series catches up with the race in the Derby state of Kentucky. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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Road to November: Activists wanted this Black race horse owner to boycott the Kentucky Derby. Here's why he said no

Guests: Greg Harbut, Bob Heleringer

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, arithmetic behind bars, how learning advanced maths helped a convicted murderer find meaning while doing life. But first, with only 19 days left in the American election campaign, our Road to November series takes us headlong to Kentucky.

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Together, we will make America great again.

Vote! Vote! Vote!

IF you're going to vote by mail, vote early.

But you don't hear them talking about COVID. I say hundreds of thousands of lives.

The only thing you could tear America apart is America itself. And we cannot let that happen.

MG: We are in the home stretch of the U.S. election. 15 million Americans have already cast their ballots in what's been an unprecedented race for the White House here at The Current. We have been tracking our way down the Mississippi River in our modest radio RV, speaking with Americans about the stakes in this election. We're calling the series Road to November. And today we're in the Derby State.

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Secretariat throws his head a bit. Sam is the leader. He leads by a leg. Secretariat is the center of the race.

[Cheers]

MG: Kentucky Derby is one of the most famous sporting events in the whole world. Horses like Secretariat, American Pharoah, Seattle Slew are for many people household names. This year was unique. First COVID-19 push the Derby from May through September. And then by the time the horses were lining up in the starting gate. The world was watching Kentucky for a very different reason.

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[Protestors Chanting]

MG: Breonna Taylor's death in a police shooting has spurred protests around the world for months in her hometown of Louisville. Demonstrations continue almost daily and on Derby Day. Black Lives Matter protesters clashed with counter protesters in front of the Derby's home, Churchill Downs.

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[Protestors chanting]

MG: Those protests left Greg Harbut facing a dilemma. Greg Harbert is one of the few black horse owners in Derby history, and he was excited about his horse, Necker Island, running that race.

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You can see they have pretty big teeth and they're pretty sharp. So that's just a way for them to find the teeth down. They do get dental care, like humans. But in the meantime, a lot of them, you know, eat out of boredom or just something to do. Well, right now, we're looking at Necker Island, one of the first things you want to do was look in the horse's eye. If a horse has a dull eye or dull coat that usually tells you something is going on either with their blood count. Maybe they're not taking in as much feed as they normally would. Things of that nature. After that, you want to look at the wait to see how the horses, it's carrying its flesh. Does it have the typical weight that it would normally carry? And then you want to look at the horse's energy. Do you have a horse? For a while, you start to begin to recognise as a disposition [unintelligible], for instance, as a horse that he's very happy. He likes to bike things of that nature. But, you know, he's a typical coating and be a little bit rambunctious and he does have some spunk. But I think that's what makes him a great racehorse.

MG: Greg Harbut was asked to boycott the Kentucky Derby and have that horse, Necker Island, sit out the race in solidarity with Black Lives Matter protesters. Greg joins me now from Lexington, Kentucky. Greg, good morning.

GREG HARBUT: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. Thanks for joining us. Take me back to those days around the Derby. You have the regular pre race jitters, but what other kind of pressure were you feeling around that time?

GREG HARBUT: Well, I mean, you know, the derby is you know, it's one of the most famous races in the world, certainly most famous race in North America. So to be a participant has been a lifelong dream of mine. Anyone involved in the industry wants to be able to say that they participated in the Kentucky Derby. And for me to have family lineage with my grandfather, who had a horse in the 1962 things, I could have just made this year's race a mix of emotions.

MG: You were asked, as I mentioned, to boycott the Derby this year in solidarity with Black Lives Matter and out of respect for Breonna Taylor. When you got those calls, how did you feel? How did you react?

GREG HARBUT: You know, I own Necker Island with two other partners, Ray Daniels, a gentleman by the name of Wayne Cher and Ray. And Ray and I can certainly understand the sentiments from those individuals who called us. We stand with the Black Lives Matter movement, and we stood in justice for Breonna Taylor, as we still are optimistic that some things will come about. But, you know, it wasn't as simple as just them asking us to set out of this race. I mean, this is a race that happens once a year at a twenty five to thirty thousand foals, [unintelligible] of the year, only 20 line up the starting gate. The industry that we love and participate in is not the most diverse or inclusive industry. And we felt that by participating we would bringing awareness of the contributions that African-Americans, has come before us contributed to the industry, gave us a platform to bring awareness of those contributions as well as bring awareness and all right with Breonna Taylor. And for us, you know, we felt that us being there was progress, you know, we can't make some progress with protest.

MG: Was that a tough decision for you to make?

GREG HARBUT: It was because, you know, as stated, we certainly stand for justice for Breonna Taylor. And our heart was with the protesters as well as the people calling for justice. But at the same time, my grandfather, who owned the horse in a 1962 Kentucky Derby winner, wasn't able to attend or be listed as an owner because of the social injustice of racial segregation at that time. So we'll certainly something that played in the back of our minds. But, you know, Ray and I set out strategically a while back to bring more minorities into this business and bring awareness of the contribution that African-Americans have made.

MG: So you mentioned the emotions and you talked a little bit about your grandfather. I mean, what's your family history with this race and with horse racing?

GREG HARBUT: I'm a third generation horseman. My great grandfather Will Harbut gained a lot of notoriety as a grown man of war. Many people consider a man of war to be the greatest racehorse of all times. And he had that horse had a very unique special relationship. Over a million people came to see a of war. My grandfather, he gave a very eloquent monologue, became very famous. My grandfather, Tom Harbut, was a very well noted horseman and his heir working with some of the leading thoroughbreds of his time as well, some of the leading owners in that era.

MG: You talked about diversity and inclusivity. I mean, horse racing is described as one of the whitest sports in America. Has that sport changed much since your grandfather who was running horses?

GREG HARBUT: Unfortunately, it has not changed, you know. In fact, you could almost echo that. It's gotten worse. You know, there's just not a lot of minority representation in any capacity, whether it be ownership trainers or jockeys. When you look at the jockey standings at the top 100, there's only three represented a minority African-American set. You look at the top 100 trainers, there's no representation whatsoever. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done within the industry to address these issues, to overcome some of these biases sometimes are unconscious, sometimes their blatant biases. But there's work to be done. The great thing is, since our participation in the Kentucky Derby, a lot of individuals have reached out. We've certainly dedicated to the work that needs to be done. And it looks like as a whole, many of the industry leaders are committed and want to discuss what can be done to change these things.

MG: How are you greeted, when you walk through the stables and the paddocks, how are you greeted?

GREG HARBUT: You know, for the most part, I'm greeted with a lot of respect and treated very fairly. But I would be naive to believe that there are certain individuals, with unconscious biases due to my race or ethnicity, who wouldn't have issues with me being in the position that I'm in.

MG: Do those come out to me and people said things to you? How has that presented itself?

GREG HARBUT: I've never had anyone to say anything directly to me blatantly. But there certainly are subtle things that happen on a day in, day out basis. A couple months ago, we had a very prominent owner and breeder. Tom Danby made national news with his comments referencing African-Americans with racial slurs and calling those animals. So, you know, there certainly are some individuals within the industry that echo some of those same sentiments that Tom Danby vended.

MG: You don't need me to tell you that these are tricky and tense times in your country. And we've been speaking with voters from Minneapolis to St. Louis for the past few weeks about this election. When you take a look at the election, what would strikes you about him at the moment that you're in right now?

GREG HARBUT: Well, I think the whole you know, this country is very turbulent. Times, I think this is going to be a very total election for many reasons. And I think that this election will be very significant. And the ways that the country turns for the future, so are. I, as well as others, eagerly anticipate the results come of it.

MG: What's at stake, do you think?

GREG HARBUT: I think a lot is at stake in this election. How, America will be perceived and the direction that America will go, I think will be on the line in this upcoming election. I think this is going to be an election that has significant, monumental history impacts and one that we will talk about for the foreseeable future in history books, no matter which way it goes.

MG: Where do you find hope in this moment?

GREG HARBUT: You know, I find hope in the American people that as a society and as Americans, we will do what's right by all Americans, not just a certain sect, a group of Americans. So I'll find great comfort in believing that. I think this is a great country. I think this is a country just built on values. And I would hope that we would exercise the values of the majority of us have come election time.

MG: And when you say do what's right. Just finally, what does that mean? What's right?

GREG HARBUT: To be a society that stands for all individuals. I think that's what's right. I don't think it's a political party thing. I don't think it's a Democrat or Republican thing. I think it's something that we are charged to do as Americans.

MG: What do you think your grandfather would have made of the fact that you had a horse in the Kentucky Derby?

GREG HARBUT: I think we'd be very delighted. I think he would be a mix of emotions. Knowing that he was unable to attend in 1962, in 2020 had a grandson that was able to achieve that and be able to participate fully as an owner. I think he would be very proud of he was here to be able to see that.

MG: It's a real pleasure to talk to you, Greg. Thanks for your time this morning.

GREG HARBUT: Thank you.

MG: Greg Harbut is the president of Harbut Bloodstock. Lexington, Kentucky. Outside the cities of Lexington and Louisville, Kentucky, the state is about as Republican as you can get. Bob Heleringer is also part of the horse racing community and he's a former Republican state representative in Kentucky. Bob, good morning to you.

BOB HELERINGER: Good morning, Matt. Good to be here.

MG: Great to have you. We're just talking with Greg Harbut about the Derby. How important is the derby to Kentucky?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, it's kind of the crown jewel of our signature industry here in Kentucky every spring. And for the six months leading up to it, all the prep races that go on around the country. And it's a great two week celebration here in Louisville and of course, has enormous multi million dollar impact on our economy and just in this county. So it's quite the thing here.

MG: How did this year's Derby feel compared to years past? I mean, again, it wasn't in the spring. It was in the fall. And you have covered in demonstrations around from your perspective. How did it feel?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, I guess I had conflicting emotions. I mean, I was glad, like everybody that it could be held at all. We had no attendants. So it was. Just, I don't know, weird to see an empty track and no traffic. You know that none of the excitement that is just palpable in this city for Derby Day. It's again, it was great. We had a great race and a great gate full of good horses, including Mr. Harbutr's, who was listening to his interview. What a wonderful ambassador for our sport.

MG: What about. I mean, on Derby Day, there were these clashes between Black Lives Matter protesters and counter protesters who some of them were identifying as Trump supporters. This happened in front of Churchill Downs, both sides carrying rifles and wearing tactical gear. What did you make of that when you saw those images?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, like any American, hopefully any American. It's just sad that we come to demonstrations with people that are armed and heavily armed. And it's just through the grace of God that, you know, some tragedy didn't occur. There's been some criticism of our police department, of course, that's been going on for six months, but that there was very little police presence for that part of the demonstration on Derby Day. And again, it's just very fortunate that nothing really tragic happened.

MG: Let me just ask you about the last six months. I mean, the world has been watching Kentucky for a long time in the wake of the shooting death of Breonna Taylor. You have athletes, you have politicians, you have people in popular culture who are all raising her name. How do you see that shooting and the story around it and the protests that have followed? How do you see that influencing election results in your state?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, I I don't know that it's going to be any kind of pronounced impact. Beyond Louisville and and perhaps Lexington, those are the those are the last, I'll say, democratic enclaves in our state outside of those two urban centres. Kentucky is solidly Republican. I don't know that that's the controversy here is going to change that.

MG: If I describe you as a lifelong Republican, is that fair?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, just about I was registered independent when I was a lot younger. I didn't want to be a member of any party. I was, you know, I knew more than both of them when I was 20 years old. And I had a law partner that told me that very wisely, that it was time to pick one. And I was pretty conservative back then, as I like to think I am now. And so that was an easy choice.

MG: What do you make of what did you make of Donald Trump when he announced that he was going to run for the ticket that you support?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, candidly, I thought it was a joke. I mean, I just thought that it would never really sell wise and perceptive I am. I mean, we thought we thought it would never really catch on. And I thought, well, when people start voting in primaries, you know, they secret the privacy of the voting booth. They won't vote for him. And but they did.

MG: Did you end up voting for him in the general election?

BOB HELERINGER: Yes, I did. But like a lot of people, I was kind of appalled at some of the things Trump had said and done, not just in his life, but in the campaign. But like probably millions of Republicans across the country, we did not want to turn the government back over to the Clinton family. Clinton is flawed and ethically challenged.

MG: Help me understand that. If you say that you were appalled by some of the things that he'd done, but you still voted for him, you can imagine there are people who are scratching their heads saying-- connect the dots for me.

BOB HELERINGER: I you know, there's the old expression, the lesser of two evils. And it was a terrible race. Let's just say challenged candidates. I mean, it was just for me, awful that these two people were the best that we could come up with.

MG: He was the lesser of two evils, you say.

BOB HELERINGER: Yes. In my opinion. I mean, I had to vote for somebody. On the way to vote, I thought about writing somebody else in, you know, [unintelligible] or somebody. But I just thought that would help her. And I was I was just determined. And the right to life issue means a lot to me. And in the last debate that Mrs. Clinton had with Mr. Trump, she said she was so in favour of abortion that she would not even be supportive of anything that would prevent it even up to the moment of birth. And Trump said, well, that's not me. And as I said, sitting there at home, I said, OK, that decides it right there for me.

MG: What about this time around? Who will you vote for this time, if you don't mind me asking?

BOB HELERINGER: Well, that's another situation that I don't put Senator Biden in the same category as Hillary Clinton. I think he's an honourable and decent man. I think he's way too old. I think he's certainly doesn't have the mental acuity that that job demands. And yet then you look at who's on the other side and his record, his personal record is a problem for me. I mean, that that last debate was just awful. I mean, he was on full display. That's not me. That's not who I represent. It's not me. When I was in public office, because I liked what Trump has done with the courts. I like what he's done. He stands for choice and education. He cut taxes. I think Biden would wreck the economy. I just. So, again, it may be down to those lesser of two evils thing, which again, is a shame.

MG: But it sounds it sounds like. It sounds like you as a Republican, you kind of wonder what happened to your party in some ways.

BOB HELERINGER: Well, yes, I have an issue in. With the president representing the main rank and file of our party. I'm just hoping that in four years we'll get on both sides somebody that is more, I guess, respectful of the process.

MG: What's at stake? I mean, you've kind of hinted at this, but what does finally what's at stake for you in this election is a really divisive times. And you have people who blame the president for some of that divisivism.

BOB HELERINGER: And you have it's very polarised and it's just tragic. Regardless of who wins the election, they're going to have a very difficult time governing, trying to bring the Congress together and address the ongoing pandemic. It just won't go away. And how it's wrecking our economy. This this calls for bipartisanship. I just don't see really hardly any of that at the national level. And that's what I think most people want in this country.

MG: It's a bit of a Greg Harbut was talking about when he said that he's looking for, you know, politicians to understand this idea of what's right for the American people and to believe in that.

BOB HELERINGER: He is exactly right. I agree with everything he said.

MG: I wish you the best. These are tumultuous times and it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much.

BOB HELERINGER: Yes. Well, thank. Before I go, you've mentioned some of the Derby winners at the beginning of the little tape you ran at the beginning of the programme and you mentioned Secretariat and Seattle. You didn't mention Northern Dancer.

MG: Northern Dancer, of course.

BOB HELERINGER: Canadian bred.

MG: Legendary horse in this country. Excellent. Thank you, sir.

BOB HELERINGER: All right. Take care.

MG: Thank you. Bye bye. Bob Heleringer, former Republican state representative. He was in Louisville, Kentucky. And yes, indeed, reminding us that the most famous Canadian horse was Northern Dancer. In 1964, Northern Dancer made history as the first Canadian bred horse to win the Kentucky Derby. A year later, the horse made history again, being the first inducted into the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame. Can't leave Kentucky without listening to that historic win from May of 1964.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Run to the roses. He's No.11. Hill Rise. Go to the Post is a favourite. While the Derby crowd has made Northern Dancer's second choice.

VOICE 2: The easiest Northern Dancer to the outside, avoiding a pocket set by Hell Rise and Willie Hue Maker. And at this point, Northern Dancer accelerates quickly, leaving Hill Rise. Look at that. See Hill Rise. Running back. See Northern Dancer going on the outside around that marker. And they go, Oh, it's Mr. Rick on the lead. This guy, who is second northern dancer, comes up the challenge with Hill Rising Quadrangle. They're going to come to the quarter pole doing the three quarters of a mile in one, ten and three, they're flying. And now it's Northern Dancer taking the lead by a head, the Scoundrel is running easily because of pumping and pushing. But if Northern Dancer in front the Scoundrel's second, Mr. Brick along the inside beginning to stop, Hill Rise, accelerating along the outside and gliding up with Brown, gaining stride while doing a little pocket Roman [unintelligible] now the speculate on. It's now a two horse race. Hardtack going to the left handed. They said Northern Dancer couldn't be hit, but he is. Northern Dancer but Hill Rise riding at him on the outside, inching ever agonisingly close. Coming up with five that are bringing it closer and closer, here's the finish line Northern Dancer ahead. Hill Rise a second. Then came the Scoundrel and Roman run.

MG: You know what happens and you still get caught up in the race. That is Northern Dancer winning the Kentucky Derby in 1964. And that's all the time we have in our Bluegrass State visits. Next week, we roll this radio road trip into Tennessee. You can find more on our election road trip down the Mississippi at cbc.ca/roadtonovember or find the link on our web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Coming up after your regional update, look at it this way.

SOUNDCLIP

What is justice. Justice. When we lock up convicted killer and just have them served out this time in misery where then he becomes a better criminal with the rest of the people who are living in their misery, then they get out and they're not healed. There's still a danger to society. Wouldn't it be better if we were able to become rehabilitated? And what if we wanted to be rehabilitated? We need to be able to have that opportunity to make these personal changes inside of us.

MG: In the midst of a life sentence for murder, Christopher Haven says had plenty of time to think about rehabilitation. For him, the path to reform came through maths. In 90 seconds, we'll speak with Christopher about life behind bars and how he wants to help other inmates through the prison mathematics project. It is an incredible story and you'll hear it coming up in a minute and half. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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How a convicted killer's passion for math inspired him to change his life — and others'

Guests: Christopher Havens, Walker Blackwall

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

RECORDED: This is a Global Tel-Link prepaid call from.

VOICE: Christopher.

RECORDED: An inmate in Monroe Correctional Complex. This call will be recorded and monitored.

MG: Christopher Havens prison I.D. number is 3 4 9 0 3 4. But his love of numbers doesn't come from the ones across his chest. And I'm being honest, my maths skills aren't good enough to explain the numbers and the theory that do. Christopher Havens is something of a maths genius. He's a high school dropout, but he published his first article in a prestigious maths journal earlier this year, and he did it while behind bars, serving a 25 year sentence for murder. Now he he's sharing that passion with other inmates with a programme called the Prison Mathematics Project. Christopher Havens joins me now from the phone bank at the Monroe Correctional Complex in Monroe, Washington. Christopher, good morning.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Good morning.

MG: Can you describe where you're standing right now?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Right now, I am standing inside of my unit. I am encased by glass walls and there's a telephone sitting next to another telephone and a large group of inmates.

MG: Tell me where your interest in maths came from. When did you get hooked into this?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Well, my interest in this started not too long after I got convicted. I had gotten into some trouble and was sentenced to serve almost a year in solitary confinement. We call that the hole. And during my time in the hole, I had discovered that I love mathematics. There's not much stimulation in the hole. In fact, it's just this little room where this large fluorescent light is on 24 hours a day. There's a concrete bed and you have people yelling all day long. And so communicating requires you to stand at your door and scream out the door. And so I kind of did puzzles all day long. And after a while, I noticed an older gentleman passing out these envelopes, little manilla envelopes. And it got my curiosity because people seemed to be really taken to these. And after a few months, one of these times I asked the guy his name was Mr. G. And these envelopes were full of maths. And so he gave me one of these envelopes and I just kind of got hooked. I stayed up doing this maths, it was better than the puzzles and I just kind of kept going and never stopped.

MG: Were you good at maths when you read when were growing up? Is it something that you had an interest in or an aptitude for?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: You know, my mother says that I was, but I don't recall because I never really applied myself in school. And so I never had the experience of really learning if I loved it, if I was really good at it. I didn't see myself as being good at it. But, I mean, I tutored people who were a little bit above my grade. Other than that, I was just kind of average, I think.

MG: What did you love about it? I mean, you're in this, as you say, in the hole there's nothing else to attract your attention. What did you love about maths in that moment?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: At that time, I think it was just this beautiful process of doing numbers and properties of numbers work together. I started just doing basic arithmetic and, you know, the computation kind of fulfilled my love for puzzles. But after I exhausted that supply, I started learning about different types of maths, like modular arithmetic and, you know, the modern algebra that we study after the basic curriculum. And it just opened up a whole new world. You know, there is universal truth that are there are no lies involved in mathematics. It's not true or it's not true. And finding, you know, these truth is just, it's fulfilling.

MG: You were able to I mean, well, as you say, you exhausted the resources there. One of the ways that you were able to continue with this was connecting with this Italian husband and wife team of mathematicians. Tell me a little bit about them.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: OK. So I had nobody to correspond with while I was in there. And so I ended up writing to a maths journal because I was trying to learn more about this topic and number three, and I had requested in this, if there was anybody I could correspond with, I would be appreciative. And a few months later, I got a letter from Luisella Kerr, and she kind of took to being my mentor for a good number of years. She's still actually, we still correspondence. She's one of the most beautiful people in my life. I mean, she opened up these doors to me that literally changed my life.

MG: Can I ask you just to tell the story of how you managed to get published in a maths journal from inside prison?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: I'm afraid it might be a little anticlimactic, but I'll tell you, it is good as I can. I was corresponding with Luisella and she introduced me to continued fractions and I fell in love. I had already been studying mathematics for a couple years and I'm just getting my feet wet in number theory, truly. And I just I fell in love with the area of continued fractions. And I was trying to solve a certain problem, and I tried for over a year failing and failing and failing. And she would send me help in the form of just different avenues to research to help me solve the problem. She would never give me the answer, which is one of the most powerful ways that I've ever learnt. And eventually I learnt that the problem has no solution in the terms that I was looking for. And so in a very real sense, it was a failure. But it was a failure that I was awe. Because in the process, I had made this general form for a whole class of solutions to these continued fractions, [unintelligible] with continued fractions. And it caught the attention of Umberto, her husband. So we started polishing up the work and he showed his research partners and we all began a collaboration and each and every one of us contributed our own special, unique piece of that paper. When we do mathematics, we're in the pursuit of beauty and we find this beauty and we translate it is good as we can in to the form of human knowledge. And it was such a beautiful process to watch this from the time of submission to the time of publication. There was a lot going on and we got rejected a couple times. And finally when it was accepted, it was just such a beautiful thing, the whole process. I can't explain it. It was a feeling that I've never experienced. You guys know my past. It's not very pretty. But when I got hooked by mathematics, I learnt my passion for it. And there was a transformation that occurred. And I just wanted to share it with other people, because if I can experience this change from a deep study and exploration of mathematics and the sciences, then I wanted to share that. And what better way to do it than starting a programme that would allow us to interact with each other and to share this passion together.

MG: And so when the prison maths project really takes flight, I mean, just briefly describe how it works.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: So we are going to work through a mail system. An inmate might see an advertisement for the prison mathematics project in their prison. And if they're already involved in self studies and we encourage them to write in, what happens is that when we get a letter in our P.O. Box, it gets uploaded to our website so that our volunteers can pull that letter into their workspace, that they can then type up responses and add a little bit of material. Maybe they want to include some chapters to show them a little bit of different type of maths. They can build these packets, basically. We're calling them maths tax and kind of remembrance to these map packs that I was given by Mr. G. And so they're compiling these envelopes for the prisoner. And when they're finished, they just click send. And our mail service will then send it to the inmates. He'll print a paper copy and send it to the prisoner. And so we we give them a link to the community by pairing them with a volunteer from the maths community. And all we're doing is sharing our passion with mathematics in hopes that it unlocks their own passion.

MG: Well, the co-founder of your project - I mean, it's a fascinating story in terms of what you're doing, but it's also really neat in terms of who you're working with. He's this young man, Walker Blackwell, who's 15 years old.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Absolutely.

MG: And shares this passion for maths that you have. I spoke with Walker and he explained how he first read about you and your maths work online and what motivated him to get involved. Let's have a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

WALKER BLACKWELL: I was thinking about, like, why is this inspirational? Like, what was like the motivation of me to, like, take action? And it was that he had no resources. There were very little maths textbooks or anything like that. And all the resources he had in, like used he went out and got those himself. And so that was inspirational to me that he took action instead of letting action come to him.

MG: And so you read that and you could have just thought, well, that's interesting. And then you go off on to something else. You yourself decide to take action and get in touch with him. Tell me about that step in and taking that step.

WALKER BLACKWELL: So my dad showed me this article and we I said, like, what if we developed a programme? He we kind of like bounce ideas and what that would look like. And then I got in touch with Christopher's maths partner because I didn't know how to contact a prisoner. I was kind of lost. This was all new territory. And so I finally got in touch with Christopher. And then we spitball ideas of what this would look like. That was like a month planning phase. But it was it was so cool meeting a prisoner who, like Hollywood, makes it seem this, but it's really not. And I'm just glad I got to experience that.

MG: So what was it actually like? I mean, most of us have never spoke with anybody who's behind bars before. What was it actually like?

WALKER BLACKWELL: It's like talking to just another person. Christopher is very like you and me. Hollywood portrays them to be like all hard and, like rude. But after hearing Christopher's story, just like talking to him on a human level, like he doesn't seem that hard or rigid that the stereotypes portrayed.

MG: Were you worried? I mean, you were in grade nine when you first tried to reach out to him. Were you worried that maybe he wouldn't take you seriously?

WALKER BLACKWELL: I was when I first reached out, I didn't I wasn't sure if he'd respond, quite honestly. I was very pleased when he did. And he seemed very enthusiast when he did, but I was unsure what to expect back.

MG: So what happens now? You're 15 years old. What are you going to be doing to help Christopher? Expand prison maths and into this national programme?

WALKER BLACKWELL: So right now, we're looking for maths books and contacting vendors. And we're also looking for volunteers to help us expand at our mathematic journey of helping prisoners reduce or helping prisoners learn maths and reduce the recidivism rate. And that those are the next steps. And I'm kind of like Christopher's eyes and years outside of prison. And it's just a great partnership because, one, it's like it works very well. I mean, he has all these contacts and references like that on the eyes and ears. But to it's the partnership is like so different. You know, we have this prisoner who solved a mathematical problem and then we have a 15 year old in Plano, Texas, who are many seats away. He lives in Washington. I live in Texas. It's so crazy to think that six months ago when reaching out this e-mail that we're here now.

MG: Why is it important for you to be doing this work?

WALKER BLACKWELL: So I love mathematics. I'm taking advanced courses at my school, and that's kind of why I wanted to do this project. But it's important for me to expand the outreach of mathematics because it's something that I'm interested in and it's something that I think if other people are exposed to it, I think we take mathematics for granted, weaving like students in America. We get the mathematics like everyday we're taught. But not everyone is taught. And so teaching prisoners someone neglected part of our community, I think is so cool. And so it's important to expand the outreach of mathematics. And then it's also important to get back to our community and reduce the rate of recidivism.

MG: What do you love about maths?

WALKER BLACKWELL: I love problem solving. I've loved logic problems and just logic my whole life because it makes sense. And just like that means that's doing this project made sense.

MG: The interesting you talked about Hollywood. And the interesting thing is that we have an idea of what prisoners are like because we're on the outside. And so Hollywood or podcasts or whatever are a filter. And our way into that, Christopher, is a convicted killer. He's serving a life sentence. Did you or have your parents had any reservations about you working with him?

WALKER BLACKWELL: There have been some reservations. I've talked to my parents about it and they think that they support me in my goal because they know it's for a great cause and they are open to the idea of expanding. And I know that even if they might not like it a hundred percent, that they definitely have my back.

MG: What were those reservations?

WALKER BLACKWELL: Well, I don't think they've met him necessarily. Like Christopher and I, we contact often, but my parents and Christopher don't. And so I think that's why they have to have reservations.

MG: What do your friends think of this?

WALKER BLACKWELL: They think it's very cool. They are also supportive of my mission. They are very curious about what it's like talking to a prisoner and working on something with a prisoner.

MG: I don't know if you need any help. As you said, you're a maths whiz yourself, but is Christopher going to help you with any of your homework, if you if you need assistance?

WALKER BLACKWELL: He's offered. I'm definitely not opposed to it. Definitely not. It's so cool. We'll have mathematical discussions about different things? Yesterday he was teaching me about the Pinski triangle and the origin where it originated in like Rome in ancient Rome. And it was very variable.

MG: Not something that you could have ever imagined. Had you not sent that e-mail out and got in touch in the first instance.

WALKER BLACKWELL: Exactly, yes. Being 14 and seven months ago or around that time, I could not have imagined the place that I am. And now.

MG: It's great to talk to you about this. I appreciate your time. Walker And I mean, what you're up to here is really powerful. Good on you for doing this. And good luck with school as well.

WALKER BLACKWELL: Thank you. Thank you.

MG: That's Walker Blackwell, 15 year old co-founder of the prison maths project with Christopher Havens. Christopher, he's a pretty impressive young man.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: He absolutely is. This is right after the article by Martin Kerr came out. It had worldwide recognition. I received a lot of comments about this by e-mail. And one of my emails was from Walker Blackwell. And I can tell as I started reading it that this guy was well educated. And you can tell he did his homework on recidivism, which is not characteristic for a kid. So I in my mind, I'm talking to this really well educated adult. And he's so enthusiastic about helping start my plans for the prison mathematics project before I get out of prison, which was my goal was to wait until I released. And I would start this non-profit up. And here comes this guy that's just full of fire. And I it got me going, man. And then at the end of the e-mail, he dropped the bombshell, saying that he's still in high school. And it stopped me in my tracks and I was just so crushed because this guy was just he had everything that I wanted to work with. And as I sat and I thought about it, it nagged at me and I don't know how long afterwards, but I thought about it for a moment. And, you know, it came to my mind that some of the adversity that I faced is that people don't take me seriously because of my circumstances. And then it hit me right there, that that's probably exactly what he is experiencing in a lot of his interactions, and especially this one. And so I got a hold of him and let him know that I said, you know, if we're going to proceed, I just want some transparency with your parents. And then we can go at it. And we did.

MG: Can you tell me more about that idea? Well, tell me more about the idea of not being taken seriously because of your circumstances. I said in the introduction that you want this to be more, you know, about more than just your conviction in some ways.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Well, when you think of a prisoner, what do you think of.

MG: Yes, somebody behind bars in the orange jumpsuit or something.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Spending their time at the card tables or watching television running around gang activity.

MACHINE: You have 60 seconds remaining.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Shall continue this in a couple minutes.

MG: Yes. Can you call me back? Is that OK?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Yes, no problem.

MG: All right. So hang on, hang up. And then and then we'll pick back up on this. Thank you, Christopher.

[Sound: Ring tone]

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Hello.

MG: Christopher, you're back.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Yes.

MG: That's OK. I mean, your circumstances are you're on a clock. So that's all right. And we're glad that you were able to get back on the line. You were just talking about the idea of this being, you know, in some ways more than just your conviction that you're trying to figure out a way to know because you had a teenage kid who's trying to work with you and you wondered whether he was going to be taken seriously. But you yourself aren't taken seriously. So tell me a little bit more about that, about what that's like to not be taken seriously because of who you are and where you are.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: OK, so most of the people have a limited knowledge about prisons and prisoners because of the media. Society portrays us to be a certain way and most of the people fit the bill, unfortunately. So when an inmate reaches out to somebody, usually they're not taken seriously because in the past it's just, we're very easy to fit into a mould. You know, when people get locked up, they actually act apart. And that was one of the first pitfalls that I fell into. So interacting with people in the community is sometimes hard. When you lead with I'm a prisoner because they treat you like a prisoner instead of a peer or an equal. And it's very difficult to work in the community. One of the things that sets me aside from a lot of the other people is that I am very active in the community. I try not to be very active in the present culture because there's nothing good that comes out of that. And so I just spend my time doing mathematics, reaching out to people, engaging in projects. And more times than not, I've had people that are okay with saying hello, but they're not okay with any further involvement, which I guess is understandable.

MG: What do you what do you say to people who think that the focus in prison should be on on punishment, not on higher learning? And they might scratch their head saying, why does somebody who who's behind bars, why is somebody who is a convicted killer given any time to work on maths or to start a non-profit?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: That's an excellent question, because look at it this way. What is justice? Justice, when we lock up convicted killer and just have him serve out, this time in Missouri, where then he becomes a better criminal with the rest of the people who are living in their misery, then they get out and they're not healed. There's still a danger to society. Wouldn't it be better if we were able to become rehabilitated? And what if we wanted to be rehabilitated? We need to be able to have that opportunity to make these personal changes inside of us. And sometimes those personal changes, after all the scabs that are being peeled off, you eventually experience a couple breaks in the clouds here and there. And mathematics has been that breaking the clouds for me. I have I see these changes in myself and my world has been opened up and my heart is just so full of love for what I do. And, you know, a lot of people would have problems with some convicted murderers having any love while you sit down inside of a prison. But my goal is to get out and not be the same thing. I'm going to be output it as a functioning member of society in specific. I'm going to do research and I'm going to make maths. And that's, I think, the best mode of justice there is.

MG: How do you think the relatives of your victim - his name was Randon Robinson - how do you think they would feel about. About the work that you're doing now?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Well. I wouldn't presume to know what they feel like. But I do know this. I've spent a lot of years trying to put myself in how would I feel in the same situation and I would be crushed. However, I feel like I would be more satisfied knowing that the person is not running around shaking people inside of a prison. I would want the person to be doing something positive with his time.

MG: You have to serve at least another 12 years or so before you're eligible for parole. How do you wrap your head around that amount of time and what is in front of you?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: So I am using this time to get really good at maths and I can use every bit of my sentence for that. I don't feel sorry for myself. I certainly deserve to be here. And I'm just going to kind of make the best of it. 12 years is not a lot of time if I'm going to be something great and that's what I'm aiming for.

MG: You say you want to be something great. Where do you imagine yourself being when you're on the outside?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Well, when I say something great, I don't mean some legendary mathematician. I'm not a genius. I'm quite amateur as far as mathematicians go. But I when I say great, I mean that I'm doing something I love and I'm doing something that benefits people. I'm adding to the wealth of human knowledge in a small way. And I just can't think of any better way to live. So when I get out, I'm going to continue this. I'm going to be doing research. I'd like to be attending the conferences and meeting these people that I've been corresponding with and just building the prison mathematics project up so that we can help other people go through these same changes.

MG: Can you imagine, just finally, can you imagine what your life inside would have been like had you not received those packets from Mr. G?

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Absolutely, I would have wasted 25 years of my life. And I would have gotten out of prison waiting to find the people that I used to hang out with, just like everybody else does.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. This is a really interesting project, and the work that you're doing in what are certainly difficult circumstances helps you, but it's going to help a lot of other people as well. Christopher, take care of yourself.

CHRISTOPHER HAVENS: Thank you all very much. Have a wonderful day.

MG: And you. Bye bye. Christopher Havens is the founder of the prison maths project. He was at the Monroe Correctional Complex in Monroe, Washington, where he is serving a life sentence. That is it for the current four today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio one. Q is next. And in addition to a conversation with Mr. Lenny Kravitz, you will hear how the Toronto based theatre company Factory Theatre has found an innovative way to bring their programming to the virtual stage. More on that coming up on CBC Radio One, Tom Power speaking with artistic director Nina Lee Aquino about the future of theatre and performing arts in this country. Our Road to November series took us to Kentucky today. We have loaded up the radio RV and we're travelling virtually, of course, along the Mississippi, speaking with voters. Along the way, you can catch those interviews at cbc.ca/roadtonovember. Next week, we cross the line into beautiful Tennessee. And in that spirit, our last word today goes to a song about Kentucky by one of Tennessee's favourite daughters. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the current. This is Dolly Parton and Kentucky gambler.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song]

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Thursday October 15, 2020 Full Transcript

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