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The AIH Transcript for September 08, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Fleeing the flames. A California family lost a lifetime of possessions — and the roof over their heads — after a massive wildfire rolled through their town. Today, they say they're just grateful to be alive.

CH: Pressed in class. We hear from a teacher who says his Kingston, Ontario, classroom is positively packed and that he's not sure what it will take for those in charge to learn their lesson.

CO: A step closer to justice. Two soldiers have confessed to atrocities against Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. And Canada's ambassador to the U.N. says their admission is vindication for survivors.

CH: For a site calling itself “Peace Data”, it sure was sowing division. An American journalist tells us how he was duped into writing for a left-leaning news site, only to discover it was actually a Russian disinformation campaign.

CO: Count him out. We hear from a law professor in Washington who says he won't be voting twice in the U.S. election — no matter what Donald Trump says. And you shouldn't either. Because it's illegal.

CH: And... work it. A struggling actor was sick of explaining how he makes ends meet. So he met the challenge with an extremely catchy song about how people lose interest if you simply say you're an accountant.

CH: “As it happens”, the Tuesday edition. Radio that — this time anyway — has no follow up questions.

Part one: California fires, Rohingya Hague trial, Russian disinformation site

California fires

Guest: Nettie Carroll

CH: In an area of California where wildfires are a way of life, this is the blaze of a lifetime. The Creek Fire started on Friday, north-east of Fresno, and has been devouring tens of thousands of hectares — engulfing whole towns in its path. To make matters worse, the Creek Fire is only one of two dozen fires that have been sparked in the historically hot and dry California summer. Thousands have been forced from their homes. And some now have no homes to go back to. Nettie Carroll and her family have lost their house to the fire in Big Creek, California. We reached Ms. Carroll at a hotel in Clovis.

CO: Nettie, at what point did you realize that this fire was getting too close for comfort, and you had to just get out?

NETTIE CARROLL: Well, it was very small on Friday night around 7:00 p.m., and we were just kind of be watching it. And some of the neighbours would come up there, and we were just talking about it, and it seemed very small. But then nighttime came. And from my home, walking out to the street saw a large orange glow in a big cloud of smoke. And I realized that was a lot more than it had been three or four hours before.

CO: How did you decide what to take with you and what to leave behind? You didn't have much time to do that, did you?

NC: No, we didn't have much time. And so I got our family Bibles and got my husband's guitar. And actually, I was able to get my daughters’ school yearbooks.

CO: So what were the things you had to leave behind that are now lost that you regret?

NC: Well, I got my husband's guitar, but I didn't get my guitar [laughing] and some books, some special books that I had. And, you know, just the special items that you just can't replace. You know, all the photo albums are gone that we've had for 20 years. Those are all gone.

CO: That’s sad. As you're leaving town, I guess you got a pretty good look at the fire.

NC: Yeah.

CO: I've seen just amazing images of the look of it. And people have mentioned the sound of those fires. What did it look like as you were leaving?

NC: So, as you were driving up, we could see on our left just the brightness of the flames and all the embers. And then periodically, you'd see explosions of some kind. And it was so close. It was just so close. And it was amazing how quickly the fire moved.

CO: What was it like to be in that?

NC: Well, I had my daughters with me, and my husband stayed back at the house to help fight the fire and try to protect our home. And I was really concerned for him. But he said he would be coming out soon. It was scary. But at the time, I was just functioning as, OK, we need to get out of here. And, you know, very little sleep for the past I don't know how many hours. And I was very tired and kind of fatigued with all the emotional, mental toil, but concern for my neighbours as well, my friends and neighbours who were in the same predicament.

CO: And your husband is safe?

NC: He is safe now, yeah. I was very worried for him on Saturday because the people who were still there in Big Creek were trapped. They could not get out either exit. And the fire was sort of moving in on them from kind of all sides. But we had some great fire crews there, and some hard-working people that just did a phenomenal job. And everybody that was trapped there was able to get out after a few hours. So they caravanned out the main road, which is an absolute relief because, you know, everything else doesn't even compare to that. You know, my husband was there and not with us. And from where we were in Shaver, there was this huge nuclear cloud-looking, you know, smoke plume that knowing my husband was in the midst of that was really hard for me to process.

CO: How did you get the news that your home had been destroyed?

NC: Well, my husband, who was there as long as he could be there, he was trying to board up the windows. And he’s the one that sent me a message and let me know that our home was lost.

CO: How did you and your daughters react to that when you got that news from your husband?

NC: Well, I had just gone, and I was trying to lay down and get a 15-minute power nap or something. And I got the text from my husband. And I was alone. And, of course, I broke down. That was very hard news for me. And after a few minutes, I went back to his parents house, and I told the girls. They were not sure if they could actually believe me, but, you know, soon they knew I was, you know, telling them what dad said. And, you know, they're very resilient. I have a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old. And the 15-year-old was taking it harder first because she was thinking of all the... She has fifteen years of memories there. We’re just, you know, taking it one day at a time. But a lot of our neighbours are in a similar predicament or at least being evacuated. And so we get to see some familiar faces here in Clovis. And that's helpful.

CO: Nettie, I'm sorry for your loss of your home and all those memories.

NC: Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And it is a very hard thing, but every person who has lost their home or is even uncertain, you know, it's terribly sad and tragic, but it does help to know that we're all from the same community and we're all in this together. And there's just so many people throwing support our way. And anybody who's been involved in this fire, so many people are donating items to different churches for anybody to just come pick up what they need. And so there's just an overwhelming amount of love for the whole area. So that's been really redeeming.

CO: Well, Nettie, I'm glad that you and your family are safe. That's the most important thing. And I'm sorry again for what you've lost. And it sounds like you're pretty strong.

NC: Well, thank you. We have a strong community, and we have a great God who loves us. And we're just... Our church survived the fire and our little town square there. So we do still have things to be hopeful for.

CO: Take care.

NC: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye, Nettie.

NC: Bye-Bye.

CH: We reached Nettie Carroll in Clovis, California. For more on the fires, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Rohingya Hague trial

Guest: Bob Rae

CH: Two soldiers from the Myanmar army are on video, confessing. They say they took part in atrocities committed in 2017 against Rohingya Muslims. They say they were ordered to kill indiscriminately — and to bury the bodies in mass graves. The videos — recorded by a rebel group — surfaced a few weeks ago. They have not been independently verified by the CBC. Now the two men are reportedly in The Hague, and in the custody of the International Criminal Court. Bob Rae is Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. He was previously Ottawa's special envoy to Myanmar. We reached him in New York.

CO: Ambassador Rae, the video testimony from these two soldiers just released. The content of it is shocking. What is the importance? What is the significance of having these men, these soldiers confess?

BOB RAE: Well, I think it's hugely important because we've had a lot of evidence from victims. I mean, masses of evidence of atrocities. The government of Myanmar has always said, well, yeah, some bad things happened, but it was not deliberate or it was not systematic, etc. And I think the importance of this evidence is it comes from two people who are admitting to being perpetrators and who are also it's clear, I think, at this point that they didn't act alone. They were acting in response to a system of command.

CO: And as shocking as what they say that they did, which is to kill people, men, women, children, put them in mass graves, is that they say that those were their orders, to kill all you see, no matter who they are, the significance is that they could actually, I presume, connect what they did with people higher up in the chain?

BR: Absolutely right. And these are not minor offenses, these are massive crimes against humanity and speak the question of genocide in terms of its impact.

CO: And I want to ask you about how it compares. What these soldiers are saying they did, how does it compare with what you heard from victims, Rohingya victims who were in those camps? How did they describe what they remember? And how similar are these testimonies?

BR: Tragically, they're very similar. I mean, I remember my first visit to Cox's Bazaar in November of 2017. And I sat with a group of women describing firsthand their own treatment at the hands of the soldiers, which included rape and being witnesses to murder. I heard stories from children, the young people, 12, 13 years old, talking about how their parents were killed. I heard stories from people describing the murder of their brothers or sisters. But, you know, as a lawyer, you have to distinguish between the story that you hear and knowing that, you know, getting that evidence in front of a tribunal is going to be difficult and challenging. One of the problems we have in Rakhine state is a lot of the mass graves have been bulldozed over. Dozens of villages have been completely bulldozed over. So you will have no… I mean, that was done deliberately in order to stop people from gathering any evidence.

CO: These soldiers actually describe exactly where the mass graves are. And it seems that the testimonies they gave of the locations matched those of people who saw their loved ones being killed and put into those graves. And these two men, we understand, have been taken to The Hague as of this week. What could this kind of evidence, these kinds of details do for the trial that will be there and also at the International Court of Justice?

BR: Well, there are, as you point out there, two proceedings underway, one under the jurisdiction of the ICC, the criminal court, and the other is under the court of justice. This evidence will be important for both cases. And that links to who else they are able to implicate or are willing to implicate in terms of their own evidence. Clearly, if they've been involved in something themselves, they have to take responsibility for that. And that will be part of the consideration of the ICC. But it will also be the question of who else is implicated? Because, as I say, the consistent narrative of the government of Myanmar, which we heard in December, last December from Aung San Suu Kyi, was that, you know, bad things happened, but they were done by rogue actors. And they will be held responsible under Myanmar law. The reality is people are being held responsible. And these two soldiers are going to be saying that they were not rogues. They were doing something which was part of the system of command.

CO: In the testimony you gave when you were a special envoy for the story of the Rohingya when you reported back, you described what women had told you about rapes and about sexual assault and about the babies being born in those camps that came from those rapes. Did you hear anything in the testimony of these two men that might be able to corroborate the stories that they gave and to further the case that you were making that that should be part of the trial?

BR: Well, part of our intervention in the International Court of Justice on behalf of the Gambia is going to be focused on this question of deliberate attacks against women and children. And I'm very proud, frankly, the fact that the government has decided to take that up in our intervention in concert with the government of the Netherlands. I think we'll have to wait and see the full story of confession of what these two individuals are prepared to say.

CO: Why do you think these men would confess to these crimes?

BR: I don't know. I think sometimes people have a conscience. [slight chuckle] Things weigh on people, but they would only do it knowing that there are consequences to these confessions. They will have to be held responsible for what they did.

CO: What do you think it means to the people you interviewed, people you met? What does it mean to them, do you think, that these soldiers have confessed?

BR: Given the fact that there's been such a vilification of the Rohingya women and men who have come forward with their stories, and they have been absolutely vilified and in much of the social media in Myanmar and elsewhere, I think it's a very, very important vindication of their story, their truth, as much as their personal truth. But it is the truth.

CO: And Canada is giving legal support to the International Court of Justice, a case that's brought by Gambia. Do you think that we will actually see in the course of these two courts and what they're investigating, that we'll actually see people, high up people in the chain of command brought to account for what happened?

BR: Well, I certainly hope so. Eventually, these things break open. As Shakespeare said, truth will out. Eventually, these things will come to bear. I'm convinced of that.

CO: Ambassador Rae, thank you for speaking with us.

BR: Thank you so much, Carol. Nice to talk to you.

CO: Bye-bye.

BR: Appreciate it.

CH: Bob Rae is Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. He was previously Ottawa's special envoy to Myanmar. He was in New York.

Russian disinformation site

Guest: Jack Delaney

CH: Peace Data was a left-wing news site covering stories that were, quote, "kept hidden from the general public," Unquote. But it seems the site was also keeping things hidden from its own journalists. Last week, Facebook and Twitter banned pages and users connected to "Peace Data" from their platforms. The decision resulted from a tip from the FBI — that the supposed news website was actually a sophisticated Russian disinformation campaign. Peace Data had recruited about 200 legitimate journalists to write for the site — on topics ranging from human rights abuses abroad to capitalism. Jack Delaney was one of the journalists recruited. He's a freelance writer and he's based in Brooklyn.

CO: Jack, how blindsided are you by this news that the site you wrote for is actually a Russian disinformation campaign?

JACK DELANEY: You know, at first, I was completely shocked. I had absolutely no idea that I was involved in this, nor did I want any association with this publication after I heard about this.

CO: How did you get involved with it? we're talking about a website called “Peace Data” or pece-data-dot-net. How did you come to write for them?

JD: So I had received a Twitter direct message on July eight from an account named Alex Lacusta, or Lac-us-ta. And he reached out to me saying, hey, we like your work. You know, we've seen your pieces around. We think you'd be a good fit for us. We're a new progressive global news organization. We're looking for aspiring writers. And we'd like to offer you 200 to 250 dollars per piece to write for us. And upon talking to them further, I was offered less money, but was offered a weekly column to write for them.

CO: And when they say that you were a good fit, what kind of writing do you do? What is the direction you take and the stuff you write?

JD: So I typically write op-eds and news analysis pieces from a left-wing perspective, generally critical of U.S. foreign policy, the United States healthcare system, labour, economy, stuff like that. But they wanted more anti-war, anti-corruption and human rights-styled writing, which I was pretty comfortable with given my other work that I had done. It seemed like a legitimate opportunity for me, and it seemed like a good fit at the time.

CO: And how happy were you to get this gig?

JD: I was very happy. I had just lost my part-time job due to COVID. And as a freelancer, I can say that it's a very competitive environment. You know, all new freelancers, all young writers are just looking for a place to get their work published. I was, you know, I was ecstatic to have, you know, somebody not only one find my work, but then get an offer out of my work, you know?

CO: So the guy, this editor who reached out to you, Alex Lacusta, did you talk to him? Did he seem like a real person to you?

JD: So I never talked to them on the phone, but I did go back and forth, you know, about 100 or so emails.

CO: And so when did you start to notice or to suspect something was a bit odd about this relationship or about this Peace Data organization?

JD: Actually, it was a little bit before my first piece was published for them that I noticed that the Alex persona had a strikingly similar profile picture to another editor of theirs. And at the time, I just chalked it up to being a coincidence. I didn't really think too much about it. And then obviously, looking back on it, it definitely looks like a fake image, the two. But probably the largest red flag for me was when I discovered that my work had been republished on a conspiracy blog that was pushing hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID, which I obviously had a large problem with.

CO: And this conspiracy blog is called "Global Research", which has really strong connections with Canada, I believe?

JD: Correct, yes?

CO: This story seems to have made this turn, and it's been revealed that this website has associated with something called the "Internet Research Agency", the "Russian Internet Research Agency" that the FBI was the first to tip-off, I guess, Facebook that this is what was going on. How closely, as far as you understand now, is that relationship between this site you were working for and this disinformation agency?

JD: Yeah. So, I believe they were funding the Peace Data organization, and the editors were fronts for operatives in the IRA, the Internet Research Agency.

CO: But what was in it for them? I mean, if people like you are writing for it, and I guess you weren't alone, about 200 other journalists who got caught up in this.

JD: Right.

CO: Why was this something that would be effective? What was the objective of the IRA in funding this?

JD: You know, we're seeing a lot of authoritarians across the globe, not just in the United States or in Russia discrediting journalists. So I think it was, one, an attempt to discredit journalists. I think it was also an attempt to sow chaos. And, you know, it's very fortunate that this got caught early because this was like a pyramid scheme. This could have looped in a lot of people and a lot of aspiring journalists and really discredited them and really discredited journalism at large.

CO: And there's also, I mean, but their targets in the past, this IRA organization was very active, and some believe quite effective during the 2016 campaign, working to discredit Hillary Clinton. Do you think that this was the objective, too, was to discredit Joe Biden and Kamala Harris?

JD: So I was never asked to write anti-Biden or anti-Kamala Harris pieces. But in the three pieces I wrote for them, two of them were critical of U.S. foreign policy. And one was an anti-QAnon, an anti-conspiracy article that was talking about the origins of it. So I had never been asked to tailor an article to be critical of Biden or Harris. But there were other writers that were, you know, pushed a little bit more in that direction.

CO: You wrote in a piece for The Guardian. You said that you'd lost sleep because of this, that it was confusing. You were embarrassed, angry, a lot of emotions, right?

JD: Yes. Yes. As an aspiring writer, as an aspiring journalist, I want to build credibility. I want to present my work in a transparent manner and be transparent with readers and audiences. I don't want to be associated with, you know, an authoritarian regime. Being caught up in it, it was really concerning to me. And it wasn't a fun experience. I'll say that.

CO: Jack, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JD: Thank you. No problem.

CH: Jack Delaney is a freelance writer in Brooklyn.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Verne Edquist obit

CH: Verne Edquist saw musical notes as colours. He didn't talk about it much, though: as a professional piano tuner, he was ashamed of his synesthesia. But his most important client acted like it was perfectly normal. But then, Mr. Edquist was the only person Glenn Gould trusted to give his pianos the colour he wanted. Verne Edquist died last month. He was 89. As a child in Saskatchewan, Mr. Edquist was diagnosed with cataracts. So his parents sent him to the Ontario School for the Blind, where he studied piano-tuning, and realized he had perfect pitch. He pursued a career with unusual dedication. As much to the instruments, and their potential, as to the people who played them. In the early '60s, his employer sent him to fix Glenn Gould's piano. But Mr. Edquist refused to rush, insisting the repair needed serious work. Mr. Gould appreciated his insistence. And soon enough, he hired the gifted tuner full-time. In fact, he trusted no one else to tune for him. He insisted Mr. Edquist be there while he was recording — and cancelled sessions if he wasn't. So Verne Edquist was there for nearly a hundred Gould recordings. Including a Bach piece that would end up being sent into space on the Voyager I spacecraft. From a 2007 documentary on the CBC program "Outfront", here is Verne Edquist.

[Sound: A spacecraft’s rockets fire and piano music continue through narration]

VERNE EDQUIST: As I've heard the rumble of that spacecraft lifting off, the sound of my tuning going out into space with Glenn playing, I thought, gosh, what a privilege, you know? Here's a sort of farm kid from Saskatchewan. My gosh, who knows who might hear this someday?

[Music: Piano music fades back up]

VE: I'm not trying to say I'm anything, but I think I gave him a voice. I gave him a way of expressing his music.

CH: That record is now about 23 billion kilometres from Earth. Mr. Gould's trusted piano tuner, Verne Edquist, died last month. He was 89.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Part two: Kingston teacher, Trump vote twice

Kingston teacher

Guest: James Griffith

CH: Looking at the scene outside schools today, things kind of seemed normal. There were school buses lined up; parents dropping off their kids; a sea of backpacks. But inside those buildings things are anything but normal. Across Canada, provinces and school boards have grappled with how to bring students back, while keeping them safe during the pandemic. Here's how a couple of parents told the CBC they felt this morning — one from Nova Scotia, the other from Alberta.

PARENT ONE: I'm very much excited because after a long time, our kids are going inside. But afraid, too, you know, because the cases have started again increasing.

PARENT TWO: It's a mixed feeling. You are scared as a parent, and uncertain.

CH: Teachers are sharing that feeling of uncertainty. James Griffith works at a high school in Kingston, Ontario. While many school boards in the province are following a hybrid model — a combination of online and in-class learning — Mr. Griffith's school board, and dozens of others, has full-time attendance. James Griffith taught 32 students in his classroom today. We reached him in Kingston.

CO: James, how did the first day of school go?

JAMES GRIFFITH: It was long, but I think everybody seemed to deal with it fairly well.

CO: And what do you mean? How did they deal with it?

JG: Well, it's 32 grade 12 students in this room, and most of them seem to have managed to keep up with things, at least for the first day. I think it might be a bit different as we keep moving on with this five hours instruction every day on one single course. But I think kids were pretty happy to be back and seeing each other.

CO: Were they wearing masks?

JG: Everybody was wearing a mask, yes. So that was good to see.

CO: And what about physical distancing with 32 students in your classroom?

JG: [bright chuckle] Well, our school put in some procedures to try to limit how much direct and indirect contact would happen. So the three classrooms in my area all come through one door at the beginning of the day. It's to make sure that they're not mixing with the other 1,100 kids going through all the other doors to go there. So that worked pretty well. But when you put 34 desks and 32 students in them, there's not a whole lot of distancing between anybody.

CO: What is the distance that you have between the students?

JG: So between rows, I've got about 50 centimetres, and I've got seven rows. And there's no distance really between desks in a row. So they're, you know, back to back to back.

CO: It's supposed to be a metre, right?

JG: Well, originally they said two metres, then they downgraded that to one metre. And now, they're just like, I don't think we can make it happen anyway, so.

CO: So we know that the air circulation is absolutely key to this, isn't it? And so how is the air circulation? Are there windows you can open, anything you can improve?

JG: The part of the building I'm in was built in 1957. It's pretty basic, bare minimum. There's no HVAC. So I have windows in my class. We're lucky that way. They're open. It's only one direction though, right? So you can't get a cross breeze. And with the windows open, I've got four lanes of traffic and a major C.N. rail line outside. It gets pretty loud.

CO: And of course, it's September. It's not January.

JG: Right, yeah. So give it a month-and-a-bit when trying to leave the windows open at all times. [laughing] It's going to be a bit of a challenge.

CO: We know that high schools in the big cities in Ontario, like Toronto, Ottawa, Brampton, there are rules in high schools, at least. Fifteen students maximum per class. And there is a mix of in-class, remote learning as well and two metres between desks. So how is it that yours doesn't seem to be the same? What is happening in your school board that's different?

JG: When they announced the reopening of school plans by Minister Lecce and Premier Ford, they sort of split the province up into what they called designated boards and non-designated. Designated are places like you just mentioned. And they said for smaller boards like Limestone District here in Kingston, they said, you're a non-designated board. So it's just business back to usual. It's full attendance, all day. So you can't possibly make smaller classes.

CO: If it's important for kids in Toronto to have this distance, is it not important for kids in Kingston?

JG: Well, it's certainly a question we asked is, why are we just fodder? [laughing] Why is it OK to stick, yeah, thirty-odd people in a very small room with no ventilation when that's not allowed to be anywhere? So, you know, if I go to a restaurant downtown Kingston, I can be one of twelve people properly distance out. Or if I go to the bank, only one of four people out in there. But as soon as you order the classroom, it's just back to regular old school. The only difference being is that we're wearing masks, and we're trying to keep our hands clean together.

CO: The other thing that is different, as you mentioned, five hours a day of the same subject. Tell us a bit about how you're supposed to teach right now?

JG: [hearty laughter] Right. So at the beginning, they say we're gonna do quadmesters. So two subjects a day. So 150 minutes in the morning, 150 minutes in the afternoon. And that was seen as hard to do, but we could do it, get through that. And then they said, well, that's not going to work. And it changed at very last minute, threw everything into the garbage and weeks and weeks of planning. And came up something called an octomester, which means that all the students take one course for five hours a day, five days a week for five weeks, write an exam, and then the very next day, get back into their second class and then, you know, wash, rinse, repeat, do it for the third class and do it for their fifth class at the end of January. So the octomester is difficult. It's hard for me to wrap my head around. I can certainly stand here and talk for five hours if I have to. But it's certainly not what the kids need or what's very good for them in trying to process that amount of information.

CO: You teach law, right?

JG: Yeah, it's grade 12 law. And in essence, I taught the first week of classes inside a day.

CO: [laughing] OK, so some subjects you're good at and some not so good at. So the ones that a student struggles with, like, say, math, what fresh hell is that for them?

JG: it's got to be very, very tough. And, you know, I've been really fortunate. I've got a great 12 university-streamed law class. And so most of these kids are attentive and want to be doing this sort of stuff. Try being in a gym class for five straight hours [CO laughing], and you have to be outside, and it's raining, so.

CO: OK, I'm getting the picture here. So, OK, is it working?

JG: Honestly, I don't know. I can see that this is going to be a real hard struggle for some students who simply cannot focus that long on things. It's definitely going to drag some people down, including teachers.

CO: But doesn't it, I mean, the reason for this octomester is that you are with the same students all day. I mean, you limit the exposure by changing classes and having a whole different cohort in each class you go to. Is that not a mitigating factor here?

JG: It's mitigating in the sense they checked off a box set we're looking after health and safety and under COVID situation. But it's not a realistic box. Before school, they're all on mixed busses that go to different schools and different boards. And they're on city busses or whatever. And then at lunch, they're all outside hanging out together. So it's great that they have a single cohort or class all day while they're in the building. But the second they're outside of the building, all those rules just disappear.

CO: Let's say that the minister of education, Stephen Lecce, was listening right now, what would you want to tell him?

JG: I'd tell him to stop lying to people. And that 15 students in a room is only in some situations. And that the pictures that he's shown on TV of really big, spacious classrooms is not the reality we face in most of the school boards in this province. And if he wants to talk about all the greatest things that they've done for plans, come sit in my classroom for two days and see how that works for you.

CO: He said today, Stephen Lecce said, that we will not rest until every single publicly funded school in this province has every layer of prevention in place.

JG: [manic laughter] OK, well, I have a bottle of hand sanitizer, some Lysol wipes, and I've got 32 students in a room. I'm not sure what other levels of protection we're gonna do here other than biohazard suits.

CO: All right. We get it. Thanks, James.

JG: Thank you very much, Carol. I appreciate it.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

JG: You too, bye.

CH: James Griffith teaches at Frontenac Secondary School in Kingston, Ontario. To see what his classroom set-up looked like today, go to our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Montreal judge apology

CH: Today, Quebec's judicial council heard an apology from a Quebec judge. The council is considering a complaint against Judge Eliana Marengo. Five years ago, the judge demanded that a Muslim woman named Rania El-Alloul remove her head covering in court.

RANIA EL-ALLOUL: Actually, I cannot remove my scarf. This is long years I’m wearing my scarf.

REA: I can here to explain my case, actually.

CH: In February of 2015, "As It Happens" guest host Peter Armstrong asked Rania El-Alloul how she had explained what happened to her kids.

REA: They were also shocked, and they were upset, really. And they were sick, especially my elder son. He was with me. He saw everything by himself. And he hugged me, and he said, for me, Mom, don't cry. It's okay. He tried, but from his insides, he couldn't sleep. And then the second day, he had an exam in college. And I don't know how he made it. But the other sons also they were crying at home, and they are afraid. Afraid why? Because twelve years I'm living here in peace, and we were very happy. I have a good social life. I have good friends. By the way, not only Muslim, Christians, other nationalities, different nationalities. I have a good relation with my neighbours. First time I'm facing, like, this problem. And not in the street. It's in the court, in the court with a judge. I'm not blaming all judges. I’m blaming only this judge.

PA: What kind of reaction are you hearing from people about your case and about the situation?

REA: Everybody is refusing what I faced. And believe me, I'm talking not for myself. I'm talking for all peoples, for all religions, even for the Sikh people, for the Jewish men who are wetting the kippah. It's a freedom. So why not? I'm not making harm for anybody because of my hijab. So I don't know. The way she dealed with me, it was wrong, and a big mistake from her. But it's harmful. Really, it's harmful.

CH: Rania El-Alloul, speaking to guest host Peter Amstrong on As It Happens in 2015. Today, Judge Eliana Marengo apologized to Rania El-Alloul. In a letter read before Quebec's judicial council, she wrote, quote, "My reference to hats and sunglasses was simply meant to exemplify how the rules of decorum are generally applied in the courtroom, and was most certainly not meant to disrespect either you or your beliefs." Unquote. Ms. El-Alloul responded, quote, "I accept her apology. This is what my faith teaches me." Unquote.

[Music: Uke!!!!]

Trump vote twice

Guest: Larry Noble

CH: It is illegal to vote twice in the United States. That usually goes without saying. But in recent days, it hasn't, because of some confusing comments by Donald Trump. The U.S. President has suggested that people attempt to vote twice. First by mail, and then — if that vote hasn't been counted — again in person. As the November election approaches, President Trump has continued to speak out against universal mail-in voting — saying it will lead to fraud. Larry Noble is an adjunct professor at the American University Washington College of Law. He's also a former general counsel for the Federal Election Commission, and a CNN contributor. We reached him in Potomac, Maryland.

CO: Mr. Noble, are you tempted to take President Trump's advice and vote twice in the upcoming election?

LARRY NOBLE: No, I am not tempted to do it. And I would warn people not to do it because it's illegal to vote twice in an election.

CO: Can you just paraphrase or sum up what it is that Donald Trump suggested to voters over these past days?

LN: Yeah, it changed a bit. First, last week, what he suggested was voters in North Carolina vote by mail, and then go to the polling place on Election Day and vote in person to test whether the system was working. A day or two later, he started to change it a little bit and said, well, you should test the system by going to the polling place and asking if you've already voted, asking if they have your vote that you mailed in? And that may not be voting twice, but it is very disruptive to an election to have people going in who've already voted and then asking at the polling place whether they can show that they've already voted. You know, we have a situation where people are already nervous about going to vote because of COVID. And what you don't want is people who've already voted to go and start standing in lines and start asking questions when people who feel a need to go vote in person are waiting there. It could very well turn people away from voting. And it could also help spread the disease.

CO: Is it possible that people would be able to successfully vote twice? Let's say if they got the mail-in ballot, they'd send it in, and then they went to vote in person without that vote maybe having been received yet. We've talked about delays in the mail system. Is it possible they end up voting twice?

LN: It actually is possible. Somebody sent in the mail-in ballot and then went to their polling place. In North Carolina, you can check electronically. The poll worker can check electronically whether or not your vote has been received. But if your vote is received on Election Day, it can still be counted, but they may not yet have it updated. So it is theoretically possible that somebody will be told, well, we don't have your vote yet. They know that they sent that vote in, and they say, well, then I'm going to vote again. And that actually could be illegal because they know they sent the vote in. And just because it hasn't yet been received or been recorded in the system on the day that they're voting, doesn't mean that they are not committing a crime.

CO: Is it a federal law, state laws, or both?

LN: It's state law. It's a violation of state law. It's a felony in North Carolina to vote twice.

CO: But wouldn't there be a defence they could give is that the president told them to do that?

LN: I have not heard of that defence. I mean, it’d be an interesting defence that the president told them to do it. That's not a defence I've ever heard of that just because the president tells you do something illegal, you can't be prosecuted for it. Now, it might be something that, you know, a court takes into consideration and can take the confusion to consideration. But it's absurd that the president is suggesting that. It's really putting people in jeopardy.

CO: Why do you think he's doing this? I mean, there's other indications that he is discrediting the mail-in system. Isn't it mail-in ballots would help him as well, or perhaps even more so? But why does he want to discredit the mail-in system?

LN: You know, in reality, I don't know what goes through his mind. But, you know, what it looks like is he's trying to discredit the system where more people vote because he may have made the decision that the more people that vote, the more likely it is that he's going to lose. Also, discrediting the system may help him later, if he does lose, say that it was because of fraud. Because he's been talking about it for a long time that this will be fraudulent. He said that if he loses the election, it's only because of fraud. So by discrediting mail-in ballots when they are being used in a number of states. And there are five states, by the way, they have been using mail-in ballots for a while now, not just in this election, but by discrediting them, then it may give him a chance to argue that the whole election was discredited if he loses the election. Now, there are a number of Republicans, especially in the House races and some Senate races, who are saying this is going to hurt Republicans because a lot of Republicans want to vote by mail-in ballot. But the only thing I can think of at this point is it's really an effort just to discredit the whole system. In some areas, to suppress the vote, to get people not to vote, but in other areas, just to be able to say, later on, it was a fraudulent system.

CO: Now, we heard from the attorney general, William Barr, who is attempting to explain what Donald Trump was saying, and he seems a bit confused by it. But he says that what he seems to be trying to say or to make the point that he's questioning the ability to monitor the system. That the monitoring of the system is not good. He is just Donald being Donald in his own way, trying to point that out. Is that possible?

LN: I don't think it's possible. They have been claiming for a long time now that there's been there's a lot of fraud in elections in the United States. And yet, every study has shown that there is very little fraud in elections. And in fact, Attorney General Barr initially said that there was a case in Texas, I believe, where 1,700 ballots were fraudulently cast by one person. And it turned out the person was prosecuted. It turned out that wasn't true. The story wasn't true. He never apparently checked with the people in Texas what happened. And so there's just this real effort to claim that there’s fraud, when in fact, they can't show it. Time and time again, there've been studies done about it. And it is really infinitesimal the amount of fraud that has ever been found in federal elections. Yes, it occasionally goes on in a individual case. There have been people prosecuted for it. But it's a very safe system. And I think it's really irresponsible at this point to keep citing non-existent cases as reasons that people should worry about the integrity of the election because it undermines people's confidence in the election.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Noble, thank you.

LN: You're very welcome. And thank you for having me.

CH: That was Professor Larry Noble in Potomac, Maryland. The White House has said that the idea that the President is encouraging people to vote twice is, quote, "yet another example of the media taking him out of context". And White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany said, quote, "What he said very clearly ... is make sure your vote is tabulated and if it is not, then vote." Unquote.

SOD: TikTok “what do you do?” Song guy

CH: "What do you do?" It's a loaded question. One that more and more people are urging us to rethink. There are loads of blog posts suggesting alternatives, like, "What are your hobbies?"; "How do you spend your time?"; "What do you do to relax?" Some of the proposed replacement questions feel no less intrusive, though. One website proposes we ask, probingly, "How do you feel your life has worked out so far?"— like it's a judgemental grade school teacher come back to haunt us. But the thrust of the argument is sound. We do tend to place a lot of emphasis on how people earn a living. And that can be tricky terrain for those who struggle to do so. Take it from TikToker and aspiring actor Rocky Paterra — who spends his time coming with inspired responses to that thorny question. Here's Mr. Paterra, with our Sound of the Day.

ROCKY PATERRA: [singing] I'm a struggling actor, but if I'm asked by a stranger what I do? I usually end up telling a lie because there's too much to get through. I don't want to go through the motions of saying that auditions are a full-time job. I'd rather smile and simply state that I have a full-time job as an accountant. As an accountant. Nobody asks you questions when you say you’re an accountant.

ROCKY AS A BACKGROUND SINGER: [singing] What do you do?

RP: [singing] I'm an accountant.

ROCKY AS A BACKGROUND SINGER: [singing] Where do you work.

RP: [singing] At a place where accountants work.

ROCKY AS A BACKGROUND SINGER: [singing] Do you like your job?

RP: [singing] Yes, I like my job, and my job is an accountant.

CH: TikToker Rocky Paterra — proving that what he does is create good content. Now, accountants may object to Mr. Paterra's take. But his song has become a viral anthem for everyone from other struggling actors to sex workers. So clearly, whatever the gig you'd prefer not to explain to a stranger, Rocky Paterra's the man for the job.

[Music: Jazz]

Part three: Belarus arrests, Canmore mountain name, Book publishing glut

Belarus arrests

Guest: Katsiaryna Shmatsina

CH: Alexander Lukashenko admits that he may have held onto power too long. But the Belarusian President told a group of Russian journalists today that he isn't going anywhere just yet. It was President Lukashenko's first interview since mass protests against his regime began. And It follows the disappearance yesterday of three senior opposition figures. Katsiaryna Shmatsina is a Belarusian political analyst who left the country for her safety last month. We reached her in Kiev, Ukraine.

CO: Ms. Shmatsina, you've heard that President Lukashenko is saying that he is not going to step down. He's got no plans to do so. How do you think protesters, the people out on the streets of Belarus, will respond to that.

KATSIARYNA SHMATSINA: So this statement is not new. And this position of President Lukashenko was pretty much clear before the elections. So we have a sort of an equation here where on one side there is President Lukashenko who has no options other than to cling to power because if he loses now, he steps down, he will be stripped of immunity as president, and he will have to answer for the violation of laws and human rights he and his circle committed during 26 years. And this means the disappearance of political opponents, the crackdown on opposition and massive repressions. So for him, that's a matter of survival.

CO I mean, that matter of survival, the strategy, which is to remove the leaders from the streets, to disappear them, send them to jail or out of the country. The crackdown he's had, we've seen videos of what allegedly are the torture marks and the beating marks of many of the people who have been picked up. Is his strategy going to be effective?

KS: That's a good question because it is not effective in the sense that people do not fear anymore. If the elections, let's say, 10 years ago, people would be dispersed by riot police one night, and then the protest goes down. This time, it is very much different. And the more people are beaten on the streets, the more of their relatives and friends and acquaintances show up on the street next time.

CO: And yet, you have left the country. I'm speaking to you from Kyiv. So you are responding to the very thing, very threat that President Lukashenko is putting out there. Are you not?

KS: This depends on, like, where you stand in terms of risks. The opposition leaders that were highly visible figures are on the first row, like, the first ones to experience repressions. Then comes the journalists and political analysts. And there were some, like, signals which indicated that I might not be very secure being in the country. So I decided to leave. But when it comes to people who are not directly, lets say, like, involved in politics. They might be generally more safe.

CO: I've seen the videos of the marks on people's bodies who have met those police on the street. And it's pretty severe. There’s pretty severe abrasions on them. Do you think that discourages young people from turning up?

KS: No, this does not stop people anymore because the most violence was happening during the first days of protests, and actually, few deaths happened on the streets for nothing when police attacked unarmed people and shoot them. But still, this inspired even more protests. And let's say when Maria Kolesnikova was forced out of the country or like she was, there was an attempt to do so, but she stayed. The more people gathered in their neighbourhoods around Minsk to show solidarity, and there is no sign that the protest is going down.

CO: And you mentioned this is Maria Kolesnikova is one of the three of the original triumvirate of leaders who is the only one left staying in the country. And she is facing possible arrest as she stays. I just wonder if the response from Vladimir Putin is having any effect. That he seems to, at least for the time being, be supporting President Lukashenko. What influence, what effect does that have?

KS: So, current protest is a request for a democratic change inside the country. And it does not have a geopolitical nature. So people do not talk about your political choices for turning towards or against Russia or making a pro-European choice. At the same time, Putin supports his ally or even maybe not so much ally, I mean, Lukashenko, but more of a politician who lost his legitimacy. And now Lukashenko is so desperate to stay in power that he is likely to agree to virtually, like, many trade-offs and other political conditions Putin can offer to him in support in exchange of political and economic support. So, in that case, for Putin he is likely to seize the opportunity to capitalize on domestic crisis and Belarus.

CO: What will victory look like? What would you consider to be the success of this protest, this movement?

KS: Well, ideally, Lukashenko steps down, and no longer remains in the presidential seat. And we would have, let’s say, a transitional government, which would then conduct fair and free elections with respect for rule of law and transparent vote count.

CO: Just finally, how concerned are people about Maria Kolesnikova and her well-being right now? I mean, do people feel that she is in danger?

KS: People are concerned about her, but she's now perceived as a hero. And there is a lot of, like, solidarity, support, people gathering on the streets and like carrying her pictures, et cetera. But this move she made when she destroyed the passport, trying to prevent authorities to expel her from country, shows her great dedication to this cause. And I think that in the future that she has made such a strong political move that she would probably gain a lot of support in the future, let's say, at the next presidential elections if she decides to run or if she creates a political party. So she could translate this into political capital.

CO: Katsiaryna, we'll leave it there. And we'll, of course, be following this story closely. I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

KS: Thank you.

CH: Katsiaryna Shmatsina is a pro-democracy political analyst who left Belarus for her safety last month. We reached her in Kiev, Ukraine.

[Music: Indie rock]

Truck driver rescue

CH: When she got the call, Karen Jiricka stopped everything. Her daughter was on the phone. A man had driven his truck and trailer off the highway into a swamp — just up the road from her home near Biggar, Saskatchewan. Within minutes, Ms. Jiricka, her daughter, and a friend were all on the scene. The man seemed to be okay. It looked like his vehicle was stuck but stable. Then things took a turn. Here's Karen Jiricka telling CBC Saskatoon what happened next.

KAREN JIRICKA: Here's this truck, and it wasn't sinking. [laughing] So we kind of went, well, are you wet? Are you okay? And he rolled down his window, and we said, turn off your truck. And I thought, oh, it's landed on the bottom of the slew, you know, and it's stable. But then we were trying to decide what to do, how to get this guy out. So Roger went and got a spare tire out of Jennifer's car, which was right there, and thought, well, maybe we could float this and float the guy back. And then, all of a sudden, the truck started sinking. And I went, oh my God! And that's when we just jumped in. I just jumped in the water. All of a sudden, the truck just started going glug, glug, glug, filling with water. And I grabbed his hand, and Roger was right beside me. He was kind of I don't even know how we did this all sudden, the thing was filled with water. And the guy said, my foot is stuck. And I thought he was dead. I went underwater, and I pulled him out. I had my clothes on, I had a sweatshirt and some jeans capris on, and he was wearing a sweatshirt and sweatpants. So all that drag in the water. But, you know, it wasn't that far of a swim, it was maybe 20 feet to drag him. And so we just kind of got him on the rocks got him out of the water. And then I said, Jen, run home and get some blankets. And she's right there. So within two minutes, she had a whole bunch of blankets. And then all of a sudden, there was a nurse there like she was just driving by, and she said she's a retired nurse from Swift Current. She said, I just retired. And she said, is he okay? And I told her what happened. So she went and checked, you know, his breathing. And it was just amazing all these people were there to help.

CH: That was Karen Jiricka telling CBC Saskatoon how she helped rescue a man from his sinking truck and RV trailer last Thursday.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Canmore mountain name

Guest: Jude Daniels

CH: Just down from the Mount Charles Stewart summit in the Canadian Rockies, there's a rounded peak that juts out along a ridge in the mountain. You can see it from the town of Canmore. And everyone in the town knows what it's called. Since the 1920s, it's been referred to by a sexist and racist nickname, that we aren't going to say. Now there is momentum to formally name the landmark, thanks in part to the work of Jude Daniels. Ms. Daniels is a Metis lawyer in Canmore, Alberta. That's where we reached her.

CO: Jude, when you hear people say the name, the informal name, of this mountain peak that's near Canmore, what effect does that have on you?

JUDE DANIELS: You know, that's a good question. Well, let me give you a little background. I've lived in Canmore for the past 15 years. I live at the base of two peaks in Canmore. The one on the left has the informal name that is racist and misogynist and refers to a portion of the anatomy of an indigenous woman. The one to its right, it's called Lady MacDonald. And the peak directly behind the one with the informal name is called Princess Margaret. And many people believe that these three peaks are shoulders of the Mount Charles Stewart, which is part of the Fairholme Range. And the Fairholme Range was named after Grace Fairholme, who was the sister of John Pellissier, geographer and explorer.

CO: Some of these names you're mentioning, because it's quite extraordinary these names are all together. Lady MacDonald's, of course, is John A. MacDonald's wife. One's named after her. But the one that is named, and it's an informal name is not the official name, but it has two parts. And we're not going to say the name of this mountain peak because one part is a very derogatory term, describing an Indigenous woman. And the second part of the name is a slang word for a woman's body part. How is it that this name exists and continues to? I mean, why has this never been changed, even when people became more aware of how racist and insensitive it is?

JD: I don't know the answer. I really don't know the answer. Yeah, I don't know.

CO: But it's mentioned in travel guides. If you Google this name that we're referring to, it comes up as the name. It's on YouTube videos. It's on travel guides. It's on Wikipedia. How widely is it actually used by people?

JD: I think it's quite commonly used by people who are scramblers, and I'm a scrambler. So scramblers are the folks who hike up a mountain and get to the summit of a mountain. Typically, there are no trails. The name is used by scramblers. And I think it's also used by local golfers in the Bow Valley.

CO And I understand that sometimes people just drop the first part, the racist part, and continue with the sexist or misogynist part. Does that solve things for anybody?

JD: Well, I don't think so. And in fact, I was the person who asked author Alan Cain to use a different name in his book. He wrote the bible on scrambling in the Rockies. And his initial two books referred to the odious name. And I contacted him in 2014, and I asked him to change the name and to use a different name. And after a few months of emailing back and forth, he agreed to use another name. And because I had explained to him that we were looking for a more appropriate name, he said, OK, well, let's just go with this one. It's simple. And then I don't have to worry about trying to figure out another name. I'll just use that one. And so that's what he did. And as a result of that, I think other people started using that other name.

CO: Just dropping the first part and maintaining with the second, so. But how long have you been trying to get this name changed, you personally?

JD: Since 2014.

CO: And why is it taking so long?

JD: [hearty laugh] I really wish I knew the answer to that question. I think partly people don't understand the implications of the name. In fact, one person, one woman, told me that it was a colorful name. So, I do truly think that people don't understand that the name, which obviously had a derogatory intent when it was named that. There are implications. And I think it's quite honestly one of the root causes of why there is so much violence against Indigenous women in Canada, and why there are so many missing and murdered Indigenous women in Canada. And that is because there is systemic discrimination. There's systemic attempts to devalue Indigenous women and to marginalize Indigenous women. And this is part of that.

CO: But this is not just an offensive name. It should not just be for Indigenous women to find this offensive. This is something that you think most people would find offensive. And we've seen that people are aware of it. Their sports teams have changed names. There’s places in the United States who’ve used this derogatory word for Indigenous women. They have dropped it, or some in some cases have dropped it. So do you think that that there is a lack of awareness really that this name is something that is not offensive to people?

JD: Yes, I do think that. Well, firstly, I want to say that there's a tremendous amount of support in the Bow Valley to change the name or to have a more appropriate name for that peak. The town of Canmore recently unanimously passed a resolution in favour of it. I now have 10 volunteers who reached out to me, people who are strangers and said, I want to help. I spoke to Senator Yvonne Boyer, who is an Indigenous senator. And she assured me that she and all of the other Indigenous senators want to have this name changed. So there are lots and lots of people who want to have a more appropriate name.

CO: And not just Indigenous people.

JD: Oh no, not at all.

CO: The mayor of Canmore said that it's clear and evident the name is both racist and misogynist. There's a councillor, Joanna McCallum, who said that she has two daughters, and she said it was sad and disgusting when she had to try and tell her children what this name meant. And so do you think with all that behind you that you'll be successful in finally getting a change to this to this name?

JD: I think there will be a formal, non-offensive name given to the peak, eventually.[ chuckling] I'm not sure that I'm personally going to be successful in doing that. But I do feel like I've at least have planted the seed. And perhaps it's time for others to move forward with it that might have better success than me.

CO: And what would you like to see their mountain peak called?

JD: Well, given its history, I would like to see a peak in honour of Indigenous women, perhaps in honour of missing and murdered Indigenous women specifically. Yeah, that would be my dream.

CO: And so what would it mean for you personally to see this actually change, and to acknowledge that as recognition?

JD: Well, I would be absolutely thrilled. [laughing] And I would love to be able to do other things in my life rather than focusing on trying to make this change. So it would just be incredible. Absolutely an incredible joy.

CO: All right, we will be watching you. Jude, thank you.

JD Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

JD: Bye.

CH: Jude Daniels is a Metis lawyer in Canmore, Alberta.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

Book publishing glut

Guest: Priya Atwal

CH: When the pandemic hit, lots of things were canceled — including new book releases. A lot of those publishing dates were pushed to the fall, which is already a busy time for books. So now, Autumn 2020 is particularly hectic — especially in Britain. Last Thursday alone, nearly 600 new books were published in the UK, according to The Guardian — and there are still lots more to come. The deluge means bookshops can only stock the most popular titles — leaving many emerging authors by the wayside. Priya Atwal is one of those first-time authors. Her non-fiction book, "Royals and Rebels", will be published this month. We reached Ms. Atwal in London, England.

CO: Priya, how are you going to celebrate the launch of your new book this month?

PRIYA ATWAL: Well, it's not quite what I had planned. I was hoping to do a big, big old party with friends and family and people that have been involved. But unfortunately, with COVID, you know, taking over the world, it's not going to be possible. But I've got a whole host of online events and virtual book launches and talks and that kind of thing planted instead.

CO: Just tell us a bit about what your book, "Royals and Rebels", is about?

PA: So, "Royals and Rebels" is based on my doctoral research I undertook as a history sheet at Oxford University. And it's about the rise and fall of the 19th-century Sikh empire. And it was initially established in the late 18th-century by a great legendary character in Indian history, the Sikh emperor Maharajah Ranjit Singh.

CO: And it basically, thematically, it's about power and colonialism?

PA: Yes, definitely. It explores the rulership of Maharajah Ranjit Singh and his dynasty, but it looks at the way in which his dynasty essentially operated as its own form of colonial power to establish their own empire. And kind of go toe-to-toe with the British.

CO: And when was your book supposed to come out, supposed to be released?

PA: It was supposed to be released on the 9th of July this year.

CO: What was it like to find out that your publication date was gonna be pushed to when hundreds of other books were going to be released at the same time?

PA: Well, [bright laughter] it's not ideal. I mean, it was just this last Thursday gone that some nearly 600 books released in the UK. And now, of course, mine’s coming out in about two weeks time. My publishers thought it would be a good idea to delay to the autumn, mainly so that bookshops and things like that would be open again, but also because my book is meant to be going out internationally. And I'm very keen for it to hit an Asian diaspora audience because, you know, that's really what I've written for. But I was told sort of in the run-up to the lockdown being announced in the UK that international warehouses for book supplies and that kind of thing were being closed, especially across in the U.S. and Canada. So I knew that that was just not going to have an audience, not not as much as I was hoping for anyway, or that people won't be able to get hold of it. And it was actually really painful because I've been working really hard to get my final manuscript revisions done. And I had a late night on I think it was a Monday night or something, finishing it all off. And then the very next day, you know, I thought I'd hit the deadline, and everything had gone fine, and we were on track. And the very next day, my editor turned around and said, Priya, I’m really sorry, but we're going to have to delay the release until September. So that was definitely a sucker punch. But yeah. [bright laughter]

CO: No kidding! And then, of course, the bookstores in the UK are saying, well, even the largest ones don't have place for all these books. Can't do it justice. The reviews, well, there's maybe at best a dozen reviews a week in all the publications. It's hard to compete when you got people like Martin Amis and David Attenborough releasing books at the same time, isn't it?

PA: Absolutely. And I'm a first-time author, so I just don't know how this is going to go. And this book has been… It's a dream I've had for about 11 years since I was a 19-year-old student, and I first learned about the Sikh empire and its politics and its history. So it's been a long time coming. It's definitely a labour of love to get this out. But, you know, in a way, I'm just happy it's out finally, and an audience will be able to enjoy it. But all of the traditional marketing tools for book publishers are just out the window. No book launches, no bookstore windows necessarily, and no real newspaper reviews, but it's an opportunity to be creative as well. I mean, I don't know if I would have been necessarily talking with you guys on the radio straight away if this hadn't happened either.

CO: [both laughing] That’s true. This is true. There's a little irony there. So how are you doing this creative marketing of your own book?

PA: Well, we're trying also, to be honest with you. I've got friends that are [bright laughter] literally lobbying bookshops left, right and centre in their local communities in small scale, localized effort, but very meaningful from the heart. We're also very actively using social media. So I've set up my own Instagram account for the first time. It’s: Dr. Priya Atwal. And I was already very active on Twitter. So we're doing a lot on that. And I've been trying to share snippets of my research, really beautiful artwork, and telling stories behind the scenes about this dynasty and their politics and all this kind of stuff. And we're also going to be doing book giveaways and social media competitions and that sort of stuff, too. So, and I'm writing articles for magazines, basically anything and everything to get the word out.

CO: Now, “Royals and Rebels”, obviously a very topical book given its history, its power and colonialism. Lots of interest in that right now. Lots of interest in this moment of history and that moment and what it says about this one. So do you think you can tap into that market, given that suddenly people are looking for books to read and to understand what's going on in the world right now?

PA: To be honest, I really hope so. I hope people do engage with that theme because, you know, it makes it all worthwhile, all the work that I did, you know, as a PhD student, all those long hours in the library on your own. You know, thinking about these themes are very difficult, very painful and very complex to grapple with. And what I've tried to do is write the book and talk about this kind of history and all the politics involved with it in it, hopefully, in an accessible way, but without dumbing it down as well. So really, it's a chance to celebrate, to think, to reflect, all of these things with this kind of a history. And I mean, it's awful what's been happening, to be honest with you.

CO: Sorry, what are you referring to in a sense, awful right now? You mean --

PA: I mean what happened with George Floyd, and the way that that's ignited a moment, you know, for us to reflect again on Black Lives Matter, and the legacies of imperialism and enslavement. I mean, it's not a cheerful thing and it's not a fun thing. It's a painful memory for people to think about. But I think there needs to be a reckoning with all of this and with our histories. So, yeah, I'm really happy to be able to make a positive, hopefully, a constructive contribution to that debate with my book.

CO: Priya, I wish you big success with your book. Thank you.

PA: Thank you so much, Carol. Lovely speaking to you.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

PA: Goodbye.

CH: Priya Atwal's first book, "Royals and Rebels", will be published in the UK this month, along with hundreds of other titles. We reached Ms. Atwal in London.

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September 08, 2020 Episode Transcript

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