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The AIH Transcript for August 03, 2020

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Chris Howden

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

SB: Tonight, safe, but not sound. Kidnaped by ISIS when he was six years old, now Zainal Ato is free in Iraq and his siblings in Canada want to bring him here. But making the move could mean leaving behind a beloved brother.

CH: We reach an aid worker who's urging Canada to reconsider the decision not to allow them both entry. She says tearing Zainal from his brother might be more than he can bear.

SB: Turning the tide. Two years ago, a group of Dene adventurers set out on a life-changing river voyage in the Nehanni National Park reserve. Now they're banking on a film about their journey changing the lives of viewers, too.

CH: Playing the hands he was dealt. We remember American concert pianist Leon Fleisher, who, at the peak of his career, lost the use of his right hand. But he continued to make beautiful music nonetheless.

SB: Looking sharp. An Ontario man enjoying an outing with his metal detector strikes gold when he finds a perfectly preserved copper spear tip that could be more than 3000 years old.

CH: And... power-pint presentation. From Our Archives, a suspenseful 1975 interview in which a British man goes for his own throat in an attempt to set a highly inadvisable speed record for drinking pints of beer.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition radio that just keeps chugging along.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Yazidi family, copper tip spear discovery, beer stories

Yazidi family

Guest: Sally Becker

CH: Zainal Ato just wants to be safe at home with his family here in Canada. Zainal is 12 years old. On this day in 2014, his life was obliterated. That's when ISIS forces attacked the Yazidis living in northern Iraq — resulting in what the UN calls a genocide. Zainal — then just six — was kidnapped and held for five years. When he finally escaped, he was injured and traumatized. He is now living in Iraq with his brother, Ahmed. The pair have several siblings living in Canada. And they want to join them here. But there's a roadblock. Sally Becker met Zainal Ato not long after he escaped captivity. She's the founder of the children's aid organization Road To Peace. We reached her in Sussex, England.

SB: Ms. Becker, when you first met Zainal Ato last year, what kind of shape was he in?

SALLY BECKER: Well, I walked into the hospital, and his thigh, he had an external metal fixator holding the bone together on his thigh. And you could see that the wound was severely infected. He also had fragments of shrapnel in his back, in his kidneys. He couldn't really move, but he's just got this adorable face. And he was smiling at me, which I was amazed at considering what he'd been through.

SB: How is he now?

SALLY BECKER: I haven't seen him, but I've seen photographs. And of course, he looks much, much better. Because then he was suffering from malnutrition. He'd had dehydration.

SB: What had he been through in the years since he had been kidnaped by ISIS?

SALLY BECKER: Well, to be honest, nobody really knows because he can't really explain, and he's so traumatized by it all. But I bought him an iPad. And to be honest, I thought he might sort of look for things that show aggression, you know, fighting and bombing. And because of what he'd seen and experienced. And instead, he went straight to YouTube, and he found this little girl singing a song, a Yazidi song. It was amazing to see that because it meant that he hadn't really been touched by the violence that he'd been through. And he's very gentle and very affectionate. The problem is that he has a lot of trauma, and he suffers from separation anxiety because, of course, he lost most of his family at the time. His parents are still missing, probably dead. And all he's known since he was rescued is Ahmed, his brother, who he absolutely adores. And Ahmed has taken care of him ever since.

SB: How did he escape ISIS?

SALLY BECKER: Well, it was a building in Baghuz, the last ISIS stronghold, it was hit as coalition forces were targeting the area. And apparently, they threw Zainal outside the compound. So he was lying there with his injuries in the dust, with no food, no water, no one to comfort him. And as far as we can tell, he must have been there for days. He was so thin and so dehydrated, he'd had nothing. And I suppose it's a miracle he didn't die. But he was found eventually, and somebody managed to get his name or someone around remembered. And they managed to find Ahmed, who came to take him from the hospital and bring him to Kurdistan. I heard about his case just days later, when a cousin of theirs in the United States contacted me and said, could I help?

SB: And just to be clear, we're talking about he was six years old when all of this happened to him?

SALLY BECKER: He was six years old when he was kidnaped by ISIS, yes. When the family was separated and he was taken away. And he ended up in Syria, most of the children ended up in Syria. And then it was in March last year that I got the call. I was in Syria at that time. I was searching for missing Yazidi children, and I was told about Zainal.

SB: Now, Zainal has two brothers and five sisters, who also survived and made their way to Canada. What do you know about that?

SALLY BECKER: I've never met them, but, yes, I believe they all left before Zainal was rescued. So he hasn't met them. And I doubt whether he remembers them now. But the thing is, he has this strong bond with Ahmed. And it's just impossible for us to imagine tearing these two brothers apart. And I know, you know, the Canadian government have been amazing, welcoming survivors, providing a safe haven when all the other countries were basically closing their doors. So I'm just hoping that the prime minister will review this case, and take into account what's happened to Zainal, and allow Ahmed to accompany his little brother to Canada.

SB: The Canadian government has said that Zainal can come to live in Canada with his siblings, but they will not allow Ahmad, the brother who's been caring for him. Why not?

SALLY BECKER: Well, as far as Ahmed can tell, I think he was told by the UNHCR, who interviewed him. There's a rule, apparently, that says if a person has they call it taken up arms, then they're not able to come to Canada. And the thing is, with Ahmed, he's a Yazidi. He'd watched his family torn apart and his people destroyed. He'd seen women and girls taken away and sold as sex slaves. And the men were executed. The only reason he wasn't taken is because he was working in Kurdistan at the time. And Ahmed, later, he joined the Yazidi Protection Force to try and protect the area from ISIS militants. He was only fighting for four months, four or five months. So it doesn't make sense to me. I mean, it's because nobody was there fighting for these people that these terrible things happened in 2014. And some are still happening even now. You know, there's 2,800 women and children still missing. Nobody knows if they're alive or dead.

SB: So what next? Is this decision left in the hands of this traumatized child?

SALLY BECKER: Well, yes, I suppose it is. The thing is that Zainal, he’s suffered severe brain damage with everything that's happened. He's paralyzed on one side. He's like a little boy of about three or four. You know, who reaches out for his brother. And it really is traumatizing for everyone who knows about it because he is so sweet and so loving. I just don't know if it could even be done. He needs to go to Canada. He needs to live a normal life in peace. He needs to have trauma therapy and to do normal things. But the fact is that I think if they take him away from Ahmed, he won't survive. I really don't think he'll survive.

SB: What hope do you have that the Canadian government might reconsider and allow Ahmad to come to Canada?

SALLY BECKER: Well, they've done so much for the Yazidis that this is just one small ask. So I really hope that they will concede and look at it from the personal angle, rather than from a report from somebody in the UNHCR somewhere who has to go by a list of rules.

SB: Who is waging this fight with the Canadian government at this point?

SALLY BECKER: The family in Canada and me, I suppose, and that's it now. This is our last hope. This is the last chance we have. It was March 2019 when I first came into contact with Zainal and Ahmed. And I've been fighting for them ever since. And this really is the last chance.

SB: Well, Ms. Becker, we wish you all the luck in the world. Thank you very much for talking to us.

SALLY BECKER: Thank you, Susan. Thanks.

SB: Goodbye.

SALLY BECKER: Bye.

CH: Sally Becker is the founder of Road To Peace, a children's aid organization based in Sussex, England. We asked the Minister of Immigration, Marco Mendicino, to comment on the Ato brothers' efforts to come to Canada. His office sent us a statement saying, in part, quote: "We understand the importance of keeping family members together and make every effort to help reunite them when they are separated. Given privacy concerns, it would not be appropriate to comment on a specific case without the consent of the individual named." Unquote.

Copper tip spear discovery

Guest: Rob Gioia

CH: In early June, Rob Gioia set out with his metal detector near Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. The retired police sergeant had picked up metal detecting as a hobby, and was searching the shallows of St. Marys River, when he came across a copper object. A conical thing. And he didn't know what it was, exactly — but it looked like it was in good condition. Well, better condition than he knew, given how old it might be. An anthropologist with the Milwaukee Public Museum has identified the copper thing through photos — and says it's likely a spear tip. And that — although this hasn't been confirmed through an in-person assessment yet — it might be over 3,000 years old. We reached Rob Gioia in Sault Ste. Marie.

SB: Rob, using a metal detector is more often an exercise in patience rather than gratification. When did you realize you'd turned up something special?

ROB GIOIA: Usually, the moment you actually find it, an item is so unique that right off the bat, you know for sure that there's something special about it, and you only have to do after that is basically find out what it is.

SB: OK. Well, before we get to that one, tell me, what was the best thing you've ever found before this one?

RG: There's several things that I found that I can't really say one’s better than the other. But I really enjoy finding personal items, something that tells a story and gives you a personal connection with somebody. I found several spoons from the late 1800s until about 1910, shotgun shells and rifle shells. A memorable find is a World War One trench lighter that I found not far from my house. At that point, you start to wonder why is this here? [hearty chuckle] So there's lots of items that I find, very gratifying to find out what they are.

SB: You sound like a detective.

RG: In a sort of way, yes.

SB: Now, this object that you found is likely a spear tip. Can you describe it for us?

RG: Yeah, what it's called, it's referred to as a conical socket point, which are believed to be projectile tips. Most likely atlatl spear points. If you know what atlatl is?

SB: No, I don't.

RG: You have a wooden handle that you put a spear on. And then you throw the spear with the wooden handle. That's an atlatl. And the tip of the spear is usually what the conicals were made for. Again, these relics are thousands of years old. So it's a best guess of professionals, archeologists and anthropologists. This piece in particular is unique in its size for a conical socket point. So there is a slight possibility it could have been fashioned for something other than a spear point, possibly for a digging implement. But the best guess from the anthropologist is that it's a spear tip. Now, when you find an item like that, and you're basically holding a piece of history in your hand, and it's a personal connection with an ancient past. It's a humbling experience, to be honest with you. When you look at this item, again, it's in phenomenal condition because of where it was found. It looks like it was made yesterday, still bears the marks of the person who hammered it out. So it's very poignant when you can be able to do that and feel that.

SB: I bet! You mention it's exceptional condition. How is it that it was preserved so well?

RG: Well, it was found about 30 feet or so off-shore, in about three feet of water, and under about ten to 12 inches of sand. So the conditions were such that it kept it clean. It's called sand washing. So it basically kept the patina clean, kept it from oxidizing like you'd see a lot of copper exposed to the elements have that green patina from being baked in the sun and being exposed to elements. And those items really look their age. But this item was preserved because of where it was found. And again, it's in pristine condition. It's a phenomenal example.

SB: You talk about the connection to the past and the person from the past who used it. What do we know about what that person might have done with this spear tip?

RG: Well, this is a valuable item to the Native North Americans, the ancients. I mean, you think about it, they'd be able to find that copper, and then to be able to spend how many hours working on this piece so that it can be used for defence, you know? And whoever may have lost it, that, to me, would have been a tragic loss to him. To us, it’s a piece of copper. To them, it was a lifeline.

SB: And they didn't have metal detectors to go back and look for it. [chuckling]

RG: No, they didn't. No, they didn't. Not at all. So you wonder, aside from how it was made, who had it in their hands, you know? So there is a very personal connection, but there's a lot of unanswered questions with the piece, too. But that's half of the part of it, just trying to figure out what people may have done with it, and the journey to the point where you found it.

SB: Why did you want to donate this discovery to Sault Ste. Marie’s museum?

RG: Oh, how could you not? [hearty laughing] You can't possibly keep something of that magnitude. Its importance can't be overstated, far as I'm concerned. You're looking at a piece of ancient history of not only Sault Ste. Marie — this was found in Sault Ste. Marie area — but all of North America. It’d be extremely irresponsible to keep that from the rest of the citizens of Sault Ste. Marie and Canada. I've always said history shouldn't be possessed or denied. It has to be shared with everyone.

SB: Are there are plans to do more investigating around the site where you found the spear tip?

RG: Not as far as I'm aware. I did log the G.P.S. coordinates, so I know exactly --

SB: Of course you did! [both laughing]

RG: And usually, where there's one copper culture artifact, there may be others.

SB: So are you going back?

RG: No. See, the place where it was found, it's rather challenging because it’s about 30 feet offshore, and about three, three-and-a-half feet of water. So to be able to go deeper, it'd be very difficult. I would myself be ill-equipped to do that. But I wouldn't want to go back to disturb a potential historical site. I leave that to the archeologists and anthropologists. Then, by all means, I will provide that information.

SB: Well, congratulations on your discovery, and thanks for sharing it.

RG: Thank you very much. Susan, I appreciate the call.

CH: Rob Gioia found what's likely a copper spear tip in a riverbed. He's donated it to a museum. We reached Mr. Gioia in Sault Ste. Marie.

[Music: Indie rock]

Beer stories

CH: Right now, for the first time in months, it's possible to head out to a bar and order a pint through a mask. To take a second to yourself, and drink it. And after downing the pint in one second, to order another. Most of us can't do that, of course. And none of us should do it. But Peter Dowdeswell of Northampton, England, was not an ordinary person. When As It Happens got hold of him in April of 1975, he claimed to have beaten every world record for drinking beer fast. And his appearance on this show was a real test: with his wife present, and a timekeeper we know only as "Mr. Molson" along to verify, Mr. Dowdeswell planned a feat that was the equivalent of Roger Bannister's four-minute mile — but with more burping. Here are Barbara Frum and Al Maitland as the call begins.

BARBRA FRUM: Hello?

PETER DOWDESWELL: Hello?

BF: Are you Pete Dowdeswell?

PD: Yes, speaking.

I want you to meet Alan Maitland.

AL MAITLAND: Hello, Peter. How are you?

PD: Not too bad, thank you.

BF: If we're going to set a world record on As It Happens tonight, we better make sure all our gear is working.

PD: Yes.

BF: So that, you know, if this is going to be official, we'd better do it right.

PD: Yeah, I’ve got the official gear here with me also.

BF: Good. Could we hear the stopwatch to make sure that we can do an independent time check?

PD: Yeah.

BF: Let's hear.

[Sound: A couple of clicks]

PD: Did you hear that start and stop?

BF: Was that your independent timekeeper pushing the button?

PD: Yeah. He’s here standing beside me, right at the mouthpiece. But when I actually drink, I actually think I'm going to pass the phone to Mr. Molosn, so you can hear the actual clicking of it.

BF: How many ounces? Make sure we've got a real, even race here.

PD: Nineteen-and-a-half fluid ounces.

WOMAN: That's the minimum content.

PD: That’s the minimum content of a pint of beer. Could you hold that, Mr. Molson? Could you hold that glass? I'll pour it into the glass now. It's coming straight out of the bottle.

[Sound: Clanking of glass and the sounds of liquid sloshing]

PD: Did you hear it?

BF: Yup, is that a mug with a handle?

PD: Yeah, that’s a mug with one handle.

BF: OK. All right, what are we trying to accomplish here tonight?

PD: Well, I'm going to drink a pint of beer for you, which I have to drink in about a second. And then I'm going to beat the two-and-a-half pint yard world record, which is me own record at the moment, which is four-point-two.

BF: So you're trying to duplicate your world record on the pint, and you're trying to set a new record on the yard?

PD: That is correct.

BF: OK, which are we doing first?

PD: I'll be doing the pint first.

BF: All right. Well, we're ready whenever you are.

PD: OK. Well then, I'll pass the phone over to Mr. Molson.

BF: Good. Mr. Molson?

MR. MOLSON: Hello, good evening.

BF: Good evening.

MR. MOLSON: I'll give you a blow-by-blow of what's actually happening, and then I'll put the stopwatch soon the beer touches Peter’s lips, I'll put the watch straight near to the receiver.

BF: OK.

MR. MOLSON: It that OK?

BF: Any time. Any time.

MR. MOLSON Right. Right. Next up, in a couple of seconds, I'll put the watch to the phone now. God, there’s just a small grain left in the bottom. You know, it’s next to nothing. I'm just trying to look at the watch, it’s just under a second.

BF: The crowd here is going wild.

[Sound: A burp]

MR. MOLSON: Hello? Hold on, could you hold on just a sec?

BF: We heard that.

MR. MOLSON: Pardon?

BF: I think we heard someone burp.

MR. MOLSON: Oh yeah, just trying to get over that pint. [Sound: Another burp] Hold on a sec.

[Sound: Deep hacking sounds]

[Sound: Indiscernible chatter]

BF: Mr. Molson?

MR. Molson: Yes.

BF: What kind of shape is he in?

MR. MOLSON: Oh, great.

BF: He sounded a little in distress there, coughing.

MR. MOLSON: Yeah, well, [chuckling] when you knock that back, I suppose it does make you cough.

[Sound: More burping]

BF: Oh, he's really burping, isn’t he?

CH: [chuckle] At this point in the interview, there's a lot of back-patting. Some of it to congratulate Peter Dowdeswell. Some it to help him belch. And then, the main attraction: Mr. Dowdeswell's attempt to break his own record for drinking a "yard" of beer — which is two-and-a-half pints. We pick up when the phone is handed to Connie Dowdeswell, Peter's wife.

CONNIE DOWDESWELL: Hello.

CD: Yeah. [chuckle]

BF: All right. When he starts, you say he's going, and just tell us what's happening.

CD: He stripped off to start off with. He took his shirt and his jumper off, right?

BF: Right.

CD: Right. When you’re ready, please. Started!

BF: Fantastic.

CD: Finished.

BF: Oh, come on.

CD: Pardon?

BF: That's unbelievable.

AM: Was that three seconds?

[Sound: A burp]

CD: Oh, he’s burping. [laughing]

AM: How does he look?

CD: I’m going to leave, and I’ll pass you over to him.

AM: How does he look?

CD: He looks fine. [laughing]

[Sound: A loud burp]

CD: Oh, he’s still burping.

BF: Oh dear!

PD: Hello?

BF: Is that Pete?

PD: Yes, speaking.

AM: Fantastic! I think it was three seconds again, eh?

PD: [said out of breath] I don't know. I’m just going to check.

[Sound: Indistinct chatter]

AM: That's just phenomenal.

PD: Well, it’s four seconds. It’s another record.

BF: Another record. You broke the four-point-two?

PD: Yeah, it’s gone in four seconds dead.

BF: Four seconds flat?

PD: Yeah.

BF: Wow!

PD: [Sound: A burp] Excuse me. I’ll have to pass you to someone.

BF: All right.

PD: I'll pass you over to Mr. Molson for a minute.

BF: all right. Well, you catch your wind now.

MR. MOLSON: Hello?

BF: Mr. Molson?

MR. MOLSON: Yes.

BF: That's unbelievable. He shaved point-two seconds off the record.

MR. MOLSON: Yes, you know, I’m trembling here as much as he is, you know? It was four seconds dead. I'll run around the room here. As soon as it touch his lips, not a drop spilled or anything.

BF: Fantastic.

MR. MOLSON: But he’s rushed out to the toilet at the moment.

BF: I’ll betcha.

MR. MOLSON: To the toilet to have a -- [Sound: Lots of laughing and chatter] So that's pretty good, isn’t it?

BF: Well, the whole of Canada was a witness tonight, Mr. Molson. And many thanks for clicking the stopwatch. And please thank Peter and Connie Dowdeswell for us.

AM: Peter Dowdeswell spoke to us from North Hampton, England. He has just broken his own world record for drinking the yard of ale. His time, four seconds flat.

CH: From 1975, as you just heard, Peter Dowdeswell setting an unofficial record for drinking a yard of beer — as told by Mr. Dowdeswell, his wife Connie, and a mysterious entity known as "Mr. Molson". They were in Northampton, England. From which, incidentally, you'd have to line up 101-thousand-and-50 yard glasses nearly due south to reach Reading.

Part two: Nehanni River documentary

Nehanni River documentary

Guests: Lawrence Nayally, Geoff Bowie

[Sound: The music is joined by the sloshing of waves]

SPEAKER: A mooseskin boat hasn’t been seen on the Nehanni in 100 years./

[Sound: A resounding drum note, water continues to rush]

SPEAKER: Now we’re making this journey again.

CH: Dene leader Herb Norwegian is the former Grand Chief of the Dehcho First Nations in Canada's Northwest Territories. Two years ago, he led an ambitious recreation of a traditional voyage along the Territory's mighty Nahanni River. Now, that adventure — and its twelve Dene participants — are the focus of a new film, premiering this week on CBC's Documentary Channel. The journey took them through beautiful landscapes. But it also addressed painful personal histories — which you should know, before listening, also included suicidal thoughts. Yellowknife-based CBC host Lawrence Nayally was one of those twelve people. And Geoff Bowie is the producer and director of the film, "Nahanni: River of Forgiveness." They joined Susan for a conversation, ahead of its release.

SB: Geoff, Lawrence, welcome to As It Happens.

GEOFF BOWIE: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

LAWRENCE NAYALLY: [Speaking: A traditional Dene greeting] Thank you for letting us be here with you.

SB: Geoff, can you describe the idea that Grand Chief Herb Norwegian pitched to you? What did he have in mind?

GB: He wanted to recreate the ancestors’ journey from, well, a hundred years ago — and more — when, in the fall, they would head up towards the headwaters of the Nehanni River, and they would spend the winter hunting and trapping. And in the springtime, they had to build a big boat, a mooseskin boat. And he wanted to redo that. And I think he wanted to do something to help boost his people, to give them hope.

SB: Lawrence, what made you decide that you wanted to be a part of this?

LN: It's always been a dream of mine to be a part of something as powerful as the journey that we took. I grew up hearing stories of my grandfather going down the river using a large mooseskin boat. I believe he said they used 12-14 skins. And the unity and harmony and peace and love and friendships that were made on that journey was always something that I wanted, I needed. And so when the opportunity came, I jumped on it. I was like, yeah, this is incredible. So for me, it was an honour. It was a great [long pause and sigh] experience. And I learned so much about myself and my people. And for me, it was, in a sense, connecting with the past, with my elders, my ancestors that have utilized that area for countless generations, to say that we're still here, that we're still carrying on these traditions, these cultures. We still know who we are.

SB: And, Lawrence, the root is so connected to your history, obviously, so is that incredible boat that you helped to build. Tell us about that Mooseskin boat?

LN: That mooseskin boat was incredibly built. The craftsmanship of the Dene elders from Toledo was just amazing. And to see the final product be put into the water was just an overwhelming feeling of joy and happiness. And so much hard work went into it. And, you know, to see it floating down that river, you know, that hasn't probably seen a boat such as the one we built in a long time — over a century. It's just overpowering.

SB: Watching the women so the skins, and their hands pricked and bleeding at times. And yet, they were so happy to be working this way.

LN: That was pretty amazing. My upbringing, I grew up with my grandfather, my grandmother. And my grandmother was a traditional sewer and beader. And I would see sometimes her hands would just be blistered and poked with the needle and, you know, bandaids all over it. You know, I’d say why would you do that? And she’d say because I love doing this work. It brings meaning and, you know, it brings joy to the people that I’m making these things for. So seeing the women like that, it just reminded me of the strength and the resiliency of our people and our women up in the north. So I was just so happy to see that they were able to finish it.

SB: And at that moment when they finished sewing the moosehides from the boat, it's such a powerful moment in the film. While the women are sewing the last few stitches, you drum and sing alongside them. And I just want to play a clip of that for our listeners.

[Sound: Lots of Indigenous singing is accompanied by clapping and cheering towards the end]

SB: Lawrence, what's it like to think back on that moment?

LN: In that particular moment, I felt the need to sing that song. And it was just an overwhelming feeling to see that it was almost done. Laurie-Ann Birtrim [?], who is Dene from that traditional area, to see her finish it off, and knowing that she has a lineage that connects with the area that we're in was just overwhelming. And the song they used is an old Dene drum dance song that we use up in the north. And it’s [Sound: singing an Indigenous song]. It means the boat is in the water. It's coming. And so I was just overwhelmed. And, you know, I don't know. Something inside of me just said, pick up your drum, Lawrence. Go drum for them. Lift up their spirits. And so that's where you see me there doing the drum song.

SB: Geoff, what were some of the moments that stood out to you the most as an observer on this trip?

GB: Well, certainly that was one of them. And just, you know, that it just happens so spontaneously. And Lawrence just started up this beautiful song, and it did exactly what Lawrence said. It lifted everybody's spirits. And it was just such a thrill and so exciting and moving that they'd finish this sewing task that had taken about four days, and was, you know, full of injuries and difficulty. And, you know, you could think it would never get done.

SB: There were definitely moments when things did not go according to plan, including at one point, you actually had to tow the boat. And there were mixed opinions about how that would go. Let's play another clip from that film.

SPEAKER: I'm optimistic, but I’m cautiously optimistic, like always, right? It seems to be the theme for the trip, cautiously optimistic. [chuckling]

SPEAKER TWO: I'm less optimistic. I don't like the idea of towing it down the river. I think that whatever system we rig up is going to be shoddy at best. Realistically, the best thing to do is to dismantle the boat, and cut our losses. But that's hard to suggest when everyone's put their heart and soul into this.

SB: So those were two of the professional river guides who joined you on this voyage. Lawrence, what was that moment like for you, [LN chuckles heartily] when it wasn't clear at all if your mooseskin boat would reach its destination?

LN: Well, you watch it right to the end, and you can say, boy, were they wrong. [LN and SB laugh loudly] We persevered. We did not give up. And that is an indication as to the strength of the spirit of the Indigenous people of North America. You know, we've overcome so many obstacles. And we overcame it with humour as well, love, compassion. And for me, you know, when they suggested that, I was like, no, you cannot do that. We're going to figure out a way. Herb Norwegian, thank God for him. [laughing] Because he figured out a way to rig it up and bring it all the way home. But, you know, for myself, seeing it just kind of like barely making it to Fort Simpson, I stood back, and I watched the people gathering at the shore banks of Fort Simpson, you know, and I thought, we've done it.

SB: You're listening to As It Happens, and a conversation withLawrence Nayally and Geoff Bowie about their documentary “Nahanni: River of Forgiveness”, which premieres later this week on CBC’s Documentary Channel. Lawrence, another scene in the film that's so striking is when the helicopter carries the boat you've made over this spectacular Virginia Falls. Why do you think your ancestors would have thought of that?

LN: [deep laughter] My grandfather, who is still with me, he would have just looked at it and said, hm, [SBand LN laugh] and then chuckled a little bit. You know, that's the household I grew up in. My grandfather's seen the beauty in all things. And my grandmother as well. And, you know, it’s just one of those things like what can you do? Like, for him, he would have been like, wow, you know, we've come a long ways. And look, a chopper is helping us out. I think, you know, ancestors would have been grateful regardless of how everything went. And, you know, I feel that they were there with us. I felt it. You know, there was one evening I danced right nearby Virginia Falls. We call it the big falls. And I was dancing and drum dancing, and I could feel all of them around us. The presence, the power, and the beauty, and the love. It was a feeling I'll never forget.

SB: Jeff, how about you?

LN: The ending, when we came into Simpson, we'd been towing the boat for a while, and it was a dismal day, and it was kind of cool. And, you know, I thought, oh, God, this is going to be rough. And then all of a sudden, they pulled the boat ashore, and everybody got in it, and they started to paddle. And as we got close, and you saw the people coming down, as soon as I saw those people, I started to cry. I just thought I didn't know why. It was just so moving. I guess it was just the relief. And so that was a very powerful moment. And suddenly, Lawrence sort of drifts up to where we are, and says, you know, I've been thinking about this. And he comes up with this brilliant metaphor for the boat. And he said this boat's full of holes, and they stand for the promises that have been broken by Canada towards Indigenous people. And it's up to our generation and those to repair it. And we have to do it together. And it was just like, wow, Lawrence, thank you. What a perfect ending.

SB: Lawrence, you make yourself pretty vulnerable in this documentary. You talk about the pain, the hardship that led you to this trip. Can you give our listeners a sense of what you were working through on that river?

LN: Yeah, that was very difficult. But I did it for a reason. You know, I come from a small, isolated community. You know, my upbringing was a mix of really amazing, powerful moments with my grandparents, my people. But then I’ve also seen the dark side. And then growing up, you kind of get lost as you are a young teen. And that's exactly what happened to me. You know, I went to foster care. You know, the RCMP and a social worker came to my door, knocked on it, and said we've got to take your son because he's not going to school, you know? And they ripped me apart from my grandparents for a few months there. And that was devastating. That was hard. And that led to more things. You know, I rebelled. And, eventually, I got into more trouble. And I got thrown into young offenders for nine months. Can you imagine being locked up as a youth, as a child, for nine months, not seeing your grandparents? That was very hard for me. And then again for six months later down the road. And it was after that, you know, losing your grandparents and suffering from addictions and depression and suicidal thoughts. And so I went into that very dark place. And, you know, thankfully for my Auntie Sarah, and my good friend Gary that came by that day, lifted me up, and said, you know, your grandparents raised you to be a good Dene person, and you've got lots of gifts to give to the world. They don't want this for you. So get up, go and live the best life you can possibly live for yourself. And I did just that. And when I shared what I shared in the film, I wanted to give faith and hope to the younger generations that might have been going through the same journey that I had been through, you know? To say to them, you can go through all of these things, but never give up, right? Never lose sight of who you are. Pick up your drum. Take your songs. Use your language. Learn about your elders. Learn about your past and the beauty that it all brings, because that's going to go a long ways. So as difficult as it was to watch, I knew that somewhere in this country, some young individual will watch it and say, wow, if he can do this, I can do it as well. And that's the whole reason why I opened up in that way. And it was hard. You know, it wasn't easy. Geoff knows I felt very vulnerable. But at the same time, I knew that I needed to share this. And, you know, through this journey, I’ve become stronger now. And I see a much more larger picture, you know, with the time that we have. You have to value it. You have to make the best of it. You know, this pandemic we're going through right now. This is not our first run. We've been through a few. And we're still here. So, you know, my message to young people across this country is don't give up. You know, there's people out there that love you. There's communities that need you. And there are stories out there for you to hear and learn from.

SB: Geoff, as a filmmaker, what was it like to watch someone that you were filming so closely experience that kind of vulnerability?

GB: Well, I can remember the interview we did with you, Lawrence, and I was crying several times during the interview. And the challenge was to, you know, how much could we put in the film? And I think Lawrence's brush with suicidal thoughts was an important thing to put in the film. Just very recently, out of the blue, I got a call from the manager at a First Nation, which Lawrence knows. And she told me that they'd watched the film at the youth camp that they'd been holding since the COVID times have changed, you know, the education there. And she mentioned, you know, the suicide, and just, you know, discreetly, but I think that was probably one of the most important things. She did point out that, you know, Lawrence, especially the kids, could relate to. So that was a nice confirmation about the parts of Lawrence's interview that are there, and the role they're playing in the communities.

SB: Lawrence, I know your kids watched the documentary as well. What was their reaction?

LN: Oh, they were just surprised and blown away that dad was on the big screen. [SB laughs] They were proud and happy, I got to say. And they were like, that's what you were doing out there. I was like, yeah, you know, I did this for you. And my hope is that, you know, one day they'll take this similar journey as I did. I'm very, very close with my kids. Now, every day I spend with them is a blessing. And, you know, my oldest is slowly becoming a man, and his rites of passage is just right around the corner. And he tells me the other day, you know, I want to be able to get out there and build myself a cabin, and just live out in the land. And for me, I was just like, that's incredible. You know, I asked my youngest, I was like, what about you? He’s like, I want to move to Edmonton. [ SB and LN laughing] I was like, OK. But my kids are, you know, I want to say they're proud of me. They're still young now. I'll wait further until they get older and ask them again, you know, what they think of the film? But right now, they're just, they were thrilled, they were happy.

SB: Well, congratulations to both of you on this documentary. It was a beautiful film to watch. Nice to talk to you.

GB: Nice to talk to you, Susan. Thanks.

LN: [Speaking: A traditional Dene goodbye] Thank you for letting us speak with you today. I really appreciate your time. And I hope everybody that watches the film appreciates the work that the people that were part of it had done. And I wish the people all across this country all the best. You know, [Speaking: A traditional Dene goodbye] take good care of yourselves. Thank you.

SB: Thank you.

CH: Lawrence Nayally is a CBC host in Yellowknife — and was one of 12 Dene participants in a modern-day recreation of a traditional voyage along the Nahanni River in the Northwest Territories. Geoff Bowie is the producer and director of the documentary about that journey, "Nahanni: River of Forgiveness." It premieres Sunday at 9 pm on the CBC Documentary Channel. For more on the film, visit our website at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: “Schumann's CONCERTO POUR PIANO, OP 54”, played by Leon Fleisher and the Cleveland Orchestra]

Leon Fleisher obit

CH: That was the late, great American concert pianist Leon Fleisher playing Schumann's CONCERTO POUR PIANO, OP 54 with the Cleveland Orchestra, in 1960. Mr. Fleisher's musical career had begun nearly three decades before that performance, when he was four years old. After overhearing the piano lessons foisted on his older brother, he would sit down and repeat what he'd heard, by heart. That talent, combined with a grueling practice regimen, launched Mr. Fleisher to great heights as a concert pianist. But in 1964, a creeping hand injury changed the course of his career — and threatened to end it entirely. Leon Fleisher was diagnosed with a condition that caused involuntary muscle contractions in his right hand. He blamed over-practicing — "seven or eight hours a day of pumping ivory" as he put it. He became a well-loved teacher, who cautioned against the pursuit of perfectionism. And he became a master of piano for the left hand. Then, thirty years after he was forced to give up right-handed play, another career twist. Through a combination of therapies, he was able to restore enough agility and precision in his right hand to make a triumphant two-handed return. Though, he had grown to so appreciate left-handed works that he continued to perform and record them. Leon Fleisher died yesterday at the age of 92.

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August 03, 2020 Episode Transcript

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