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The Current Transcript for June 15, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: There's always a set of circumstances and depending on the circumstances and the level of resistance, sometimes there are intervention actions that need to be taken.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is those so-called intervention actions between police and the people they serve that are the catalyst for the Black Lives Matter protests happening around the world. With anger over police shootings beyond the boiling point, a look in 30 minutes at the calls for greater oversight at who's actually policing the police. Also, this morning, the Banff Centre, one of the key laboratories for nurturing the next generation of Canadian artists, has laid off most of its staff. Why so many in the arts community are so worried about that centre's future. And later.

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VOICE: I ODed three times and woke up you know alone because I was using alone.

MG: 170 people died from drug overdoses in British Columbia in May. It is a staggering number that many, including that province's top doctor, Bonnie Henry, say is wrapped up in the stigma of drug use. And in the midst of this pandemic, we begin with the stories of two people behind another number. Those who have died from COVID-19, told by their daughter who cared for them and ultimately contracted the disease herself. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Mary Ito moved into a seniors' home to care for her parents. Within days they died, and she too had COVID-19

Guests: Mary Ito

MG: COVID-19 has been the all consuming story for months. The hot spots, the lockdown's, the hunt for a vaccine, it's all that many of us can talk about. But in all of this coverage, sometimes the unique stories of Canadians we've lost during this pandemic can fade behind the headlines. Today, we're going to tell you about Fumiko and Tsugio Ito. Fumiko was 92-years-old. Tsugio was 97. They had two children, four grandchildren and one great grandchild and they died nine days apart. They are the parents of Mary Ito, a former CBC radio host who listeners in Ontario know very well. In April, Mary got a call from a nurse at her parents Toronto retirement home. Her mother was being tested for COVID-19. And the place was going into lockdown. Before the month was over, both her parents had died and Mary herself had contracted the disease. Mary Ito joins me now. Mary, good morning.

MARY ITO: Good morning. My goodness, that was something hearing that back. Yeah.

MG: I'm so sorry for what you've been through.

MARY ITO: Thank you. Thank you.

MG: I've known you for a long time.

MARY ITO: Yeah.

MG: How are you doing?

MARY ITO: Physically, I'm doing very well. I've pretty much recovered. There are some lingering effects. Sometimes I get short of breath. My stamina isn't up to it. You know, emotionally, I know it just takes time. I have good days and very sad days still.

MG: Can you told me about your parents.

MARY ITO: Well, I'll start with my mom because I know more about her. My dad was very quiet. My mom was born in Japan. She met my dad when he came there after the war. My dad was interned. My dad's family was given a choice after their property was confiscated to either move out east or to go to Japan. And they had relatives in Japan. But anyway, he got there, the family got there and having no idea really, I think, how devastated the country was. And I guess through some mutual friend that my mom and they got married and then they came to Canada after my sister was born. My mom came from a middle class family. Her dad was a dentist. It was a family of four children. She had a good life during that time when my parents were married and my sister was born. Yeah, they they lived well. They had friends, family was there. My dad actually at that time had been hired by the British occupation to do work in interpreting, which was a running joke because my dad doesn't talk, so we can't quite figure out how he was an interpreter, but anyway he was.

MG: They both had extraordinary lives. The obituaries for them were so well read. People two people spread them through social media around the world because of the lives that they had led. And talking about how your mom lived through the Depression and then what was 50 kilometres away.

MARY ITO: Yeah, she was in a town that was very close to Hiroshima. You know, my parents didn't talk much about the past, particularly my dad. You know, I think it's a generational thing. It's it's a cultural thing. And it's just the way they were. They didn't dwell on it. They just kind of accepted it and moved on. But my mom was more vocal about it. And I would ask her questions. And she did say, you know, after the bomb was dropped, she came out and she did see that infamous mushroom cloud. But, you know, they there a very famous Japanese saying it's you fall down seven times and you get up eight. And that's kind of how my parents were. They just kind of put the past behind them. And I think that's also why they didn't really feel a need to talk about it. And as I said, my dad was was a silent guy. He was just a man of action.

MARY ITO: Despite what he went through, you mentioned family farm was taken away from them as well. So my dad was born in Canada. His dad, Denjiro, came over. I think I was around 19 07 to join his two brothers. And they had about a 35 acre strawberry farm in Michigan, which is about an hour outside of Vancouver. And then when the war happened, the government confiscated the strawberry farm. They sold it to one of their workers. My dad's family was sent to Alberta to work on a sugarbeet farm for five years. And then after that, that's when he went to Japan and met my mom. But I mean, I asked my dad and the very few words that he said to me, he said, you know, war is is not fair and it's over. And we move on. So I really I never got the sense that there was any resentment. He just put it behind him and was ready to go on with life in his family.

MG: They were very close to your family and they lived with you for years.

MARY ITO: Yeah. My mom had had a mild heart attack a number of years ago, and she came to recover and she was better back to normal in a month, but they like living in our house so much they decided to stay. So they stayed for 11 years until my parents had to go to a retirement home because the steps in our house were too much.

MG: Tell me about that phone call that you get from the retirement home that happened in April.

MARY ITO: Yeah. So Easter weekend, I remember clearly it was Sunday morning. I got a call from the nurse at the retirement home and she said that it seemed likely my mom had covered an outbreak had just occurred and a few people they suspected had COVID.She said my mom had had a minor fall. Nothing major, she was fine, but that they were concerned about her because she seemed to be deteriorating. That was really all I knew. And I just I realised, well, if she had fallen, that's not good. She probably needed help taking care. And I realised just with everything that had been happening in long term homes and retirement homes, they were not well staffed. They didn't have the resources. So I just made a decision. I had to go to care for my parents.

MG: And by my making that decision, you decide that you're going to move into that home.

MARY ITO: Well, when I spoke to the executive director, she said, you understand that, you know, yes, you can come, but you can't leave. You'll be under lockdown because it's unsafe for you to go back and forth. So I knew that I knew once going there that I would have to stay there. And I didn't know how long that would be. But, yeah, I didn't really think a lot about it, because maybe if I did, I would have really second guessed my decision. But I just I just knew I had to.

MG: How did your parents react when you walked in?

MARY ITO: When I walked in my mom said, what are you doing here? Because, of course, they'd been under lockdown. They hadn't seen anybody. They hadn't even left their room. And then, you know, she said it's not necessary for you to be here. But she didn't say for me to leave. And, you know, that that was fine. I can't imagine what it would be like to be alone and sick like that. And. I know that she was probably torn to have me go, maybe not even realising, though, to how seriously sick she was and how serious the pandemic was. I quickly realized though, Matt, I was over my head. She was, she was quite ill. She was not able to do really anything for herself. And I'm not a big person. And I really struggled to take care of her through the day and through the night.

MG: What kind of care were there getting?

MARY ITO: At that point, the staff was just I could see they were run off their feet. They didn't have enough resources initially. They didn't have enough PPE. A nurse would check in on them two to three times a day, just taking their temperature and taking their oxygen level. And that was it. You know, I've cared for my mother before when she had a, she's had two heart attacks. I just felt I'm not sure if this is what I should be doing, but I guess I'm doing this. You know, I would second guess myself. I was constantly cleaning. Of course, you had to clean with bleach all the time. Sometimes my mom would call me in the middle of the night, well, often because she needed to get up to the bathroom. And then there was just no time to put on PPE. I just had to run to her. I did have it, though. I had a shield. I had a mask. I had gloves.

MG: But in those moments, as you say, sometimes there's just not time.

MARY ITO: No, no.

MG: Did you worry in those moments about catching COVID yourself?

MARY ITO: When I made the decision to go to the residents? I was almost positive I'd get it because I was in a confined space with two people who had covered. I was yeah. I was pretty sure I would get it. So I wasn't surprised when I did.

MG: What were the conversations that you had with the rest of your family about this?

MARY ITO: My husband was very supportive and he said to me right away, I would do the same thing for my parents. And he didn't show that he was worried. My children were worried and that was difficult. And, you know, while he was driving to their residents, I was going through my mind my decision at that point. And, you know, you kind of I'm fairly rational and I was thinking, well, you know, my kids are big. They can take care of themselves. Now, it's not like if they were little. I don't know if I would have gone. But they're big. And, you know, if if I got really sick, um, they can all handle things. Yeah. I felt comfortable with it and I thought they'd be OK.

MG: You were there for how many days until your mother is moved to the hospital?

MARY ITO: Oh, that was very quick. I was only there, I think. Yes. Three days. It's a bit of a blur now. You know, it's hard to sometimes remember because of being sick. And things were just sort of I was in sort of a bubble within a bubble. But I think I was there for about three days when my mom went and then my dad went about about a week and a half later, I guess.

MG: What happened after your mom went to the hospital?

MARY ITO: She was doing OK the first day and then the second day she was there because she already had a weak heart. The strain of COVID was too much for her. And I know this, I remember clearly. Phone rang and I saw it was the hospital and I picked it up and it was the doctor and he said, Mary, I'm so sorry, but your mom's just had a heart attack and they were very concerned. And then she died a week later.

MG: One of the things that we've heard so much about over the course of this is just how difficult it is for people because they can't be with family members in these moments. Were you able to go to the hospital to see your mother?

MARY ITO: Yes, they allowed for a very short visit with full PPE on. And I, I think they allow when your loved one is dying. So, yes, I was able to go see my mom.

MG: But in the midst of this, you're also caring for your father, who's sick?

MARY ITO: Yes. Yeah. You know, honestly, Matt, it's weird because when you're not feeling well, things are kind of blurry and I don't think you feel them that intensely. And that might have been a good thing, because if I was perfectly well, everything would have been in such clear focus since. And so painful. The pain came later after I fully recovered. But at that time, you're just you're going through the motions and you're doing just what had to be done. So it was almost kind of a survival mechanism in a weird way COVID did a favour for me at that time.

MG: How did you and your father mourn the loss of your mother? I mean, that must have been. He's going through his own crisis. That must've been incredibly difficult for him.

MARY ITO: Well, you know, again, my dad being very silent, he had gone to the hospital and I requested that he be, if possible, put in the same room as my mom. And he was. He was there when she died. And when I spoke to the doctor, they had to tell him and my dad had a look of anguish on his face and put his head in his hands, but he said nothing. And you know when my dad went to hospital, it was a decision of, you know, well, should we keep him? He seems to be getting worse. It was kind of a borderline decision. But I wanted him to go because of what had happened to my mom. And I was nervous if he stayed at home. And the doctor said, you know, your dad is doing quite well. He's not really that bad. Well, we hope he makes a full recovery. And so at that point, I stayed at than at the senior's residents because I thought, well, if when he gets out, I'll be here to take care of him. But once my mom died. My dad made the decision that. He wanted to go to. And you know, my that's another role reversal, you know, my mom took care of my dad for many, many years. And then when my mom started to fail later on, now it was my dad's job and and he took that job very seriously. And so when my mom died, you know, his his job was done. And. And so he felt so was he. And that was really, really hard for our family because my mom having the heart attack, we kind of prepared ourselves for the worst with my dad. It was it was really hard because we expected him to get well.

MG: In the midst of all of this, it's impossible to imagine what that experience would have been like and then thrown into this, you get sick as well.

MARY ITO: It was really like a bubble of being in with COVID.You know, I had all those typical symptoms except I was not seriously old enough to go on a ventilator, but, yeah, you know, the high fever and headaches and bit of coughing and congestion and body pains, too. So you feel that you're in this weird bubble and then just being locked down in my parents rooms and then being part of this larger world covered bubble. It was it's a surreal. It really felt surreal. But I have to say, the contact I had with, you know, friends and colleagues here at CBC, that was so precious to me. It really was. People sending me messages and and notes and good wishes, because being by yourself, you know, of course you're just talking to yourself. And I would have the TV on all day long and in the morning the radio and that was my company. So I became quite an expert on 60 sitcoms that run in the afternoon. I Dream of Jeannie, Hogan's Heroes, The Jeffersons.

MG: The decision, I mean we're hearing these stories of people who are making these extraordinary decisions in this moment where they can't see their family members and so they're, you know, standing outside the window where they're renting some sort of crane, they can peer in the window or we've heard from people who like yourself, have moved in to those seniors residences. What did it mean for you to be there at that time of your parents lives?

MARY ITO: I don't regret it. It was very precious for me to be there. I still I mean, this is the first time I've talked this much about it and so openly, I shared it with family and a few close friends. It's not an experience I dwell on a lot. I probably will in the coming days. But, you know, I was the only one there, an outside person who was there during that time and the only non senior. And and so it was really interesting. Now, when I look back that I had a window into what it's like living there. And, you know, what surprised me is I expected it to be very, very sad. You know, there was an outbreak. People were gradually getting covered in the residents. And it was sad being with my parents. But on the floor of my parents, their neighbours, all women, who are I, I guess in their 80s or 90s? Every morning I could hear them open their doors and they would talk to each other from their doorways and they would be laughing and joking and trying to make the best of it and saying, you know, we're going to get through this and we'll be going out and having our dinners. And that was so wonderful for me to hear that when I was locked in the room.

MG: How in this moment are you able to grieve for your parents? We have these rituals where we get together and you can give somebody, you came into the studio, I mean I can't give you a hug. You can't do that. You can't do the things that we would normally do to remember somebody, but also celebrate a life, or an extraordinary couple of lives. How are you grieving now?

MARY ITO: That's a really good question. I do feel open-ended right now, because I wasn't able to go to their cremations. We haven't had a funeral. I'm planning a memorial service, so I really am wanting to have that. But, you know, I leave little things of them around me right now. I'm not sure if that's grieving, or maybe I just want to keep them alive. But my mom's little handbag that she used all the time, I have it on my desk and I look at it. You know, my dad had an old wallet, and there's a picture of him when he was younger. I actually came across their passports when they were coming from Japan back to Canada and I've looked at them a lot. I've looked at their pictures when they were young. They were in their thirties. My dad and my mom and my sister who's passed away and I, it's so hopeful because, you know, they were full of hope at that time, thinking about coming back to Canada, starting a new life. There was so much possibility. And and so I'm not sure if that's grieving or a celebration, but that's what I've been doing.

MG: Again, I'm so sorry for what you've been through. And I really appreciate you talking to us about it. They lived extraordinary lives. Mary, thank you.

MARY ITO: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Take care of yourself.

MARY ITO: Thanks.

MG: The CBC's Mary Ito, the former host of Fresh Air on CBC Radio in Toronto, remembering her parents who died of COVID-19. The CBC News is next. And then.

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VOICE: In no way in any circumstances should an RCMP put his hands on you, let alone give you a clothesline and do excessive damage to one person's face.

MG: Chief Allan Adam was left battered and bruised after his arrest by the RCMP in Alberta, one of many and incidents in recent weeks that has some people demanding changes to police oversight. We'll hear more coming up after the break. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Police actions are under intense public scrutiny, but what official channels exist to check police actions in Canada?

Guests: Brian Beresh, Erick Laming, Ian Scott

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, a troubling rise in deaths from opioids in the midst of this pandemic. But first, policing the police.

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MG: It's difficult to make out what's happening if you just listen to the audio of Chief Allan Adam's encounter with the RCMP on March the 10th. But for the first half of the 12 minute video, there is a verbal back and forth between Adam, his wife, and the officer who's standing next to his truck in a parking lot.

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[Clip of Chief Allan Adam's encounter with the RCMP]

MG: Adam accuses the RCMP of harassment.

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[Clip of Chief Allan Adam's encounter with the RCMP]

MG: And that is when things get physical, as one officer grabs Adam by the arms and then from the left side of the screen, another one barrels toward him, tackles him and holds him on the ground, punching him and placing him in a chokehold. What happened that night is now the subject of an independent investigation by the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team. But this incident is not the latest involving the RCMP. On Friday, the RCMP shot and killed Rodney Levi, a 48-year-old man of the Metepenagiag First Nation in New Brunswick. That shooting is the second death of an indigenous person in New Brunswick in nine days. And the shooting of Mr. Levi is now being investigated by Quebec's police watchdog. Brian Beresh is the lawyer for Chief Allan Adam. He is in Edmonton. Brian Beresh, good morning.

BRIAN BERESH: Good morning, Matt.

MG: When you first saw that video of the encounter between your client and the RCMP, what went through your mind?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, what struck me was how the matter was allowed to escalate as it did. We expect the police to be able to defuse situations like this, which involved a $310 traffic ticket. And that's when alarmed me.

MG: For a lot of people who were watching, it was that moment, as I mentioned in the introduction, where somebody, one of the officers comes from the left side of the screen and tackles him, flattens him to the ground. Is that that escalation that you're speaking about?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, even prior to that, my client was asking simply what was wrong, because this vehicle had been in police custody a few days before. No one had ever complained about an expired licence. He didn't believe it was a problem. He was simply asking for an explanation. And the officer, rather than giving him one, the officer ordered him into his vehicle.

MG: What are the questions that that escalation raises for you?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, it seems to me that as a normal part of policing, one would expect training to diffuse the situation, not inflame it. That didn't occur with the first police officer, obviously the arrival of the second police officer who had no knowledge of what was going on, it's just, quite frankly, unbelievable.

MG: The incident was reviewed by a local RCMP after it happened, but initially it was not forwarded to Alberta's police watchdog for further investigation. What does that tell you?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, it suggests to me that their standard of what they they believe to be reasonable conduct is simply not acceptable. Anyone watching this video would, I think, conclude that the force used was extremely unreasonable.

MG: What do you understand about why it wasn't further reviewed for further investigation?

BRIAN BERESH: We have never received any explanation except that they reviewed it and found it to be reasonable. And what strikes at the heart of this whole question is, given the recent announcement by the RCMP, the officers involved have still not been suspended.

MG: Do you think that the review that has been initiated by the Alberta police watchdog would have happened without you speaking publicly about this?

BRIAN BERESH: Absolutely not.

MG: You've called for an independent investigation. Why don't you think that the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team can handle this file?

BRIAN BERESH: My belief is that there are some systemic problems that are far deeper than what is within the mandate of ASIRT, the investigating group. We think that this should actually be a public inquiry so that the public can see the transparency of what's being investigated. Questions can be asked about how it is that this systemic racism can reflect itself in such a devastating conduct toward a well-respected member of the community.

MG: What wouldn't this investigation reveal? The independent agency is staffed by civilian investigators as well as police officers that have been seconded to this job. So what wouldn't that reveal?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, I don't think that has mandate to look at why the police didn't ask for ASIRT's involvement earlier. I don't believe it has a mandate to necessarily review how it is that police officers responded. So, for example, math to over this 310 dollar ticket the video reveals that seven police officers arrived on the scene. This is quite unbelievable.

MG: And to you, that's the kind of thing sort of why that happened would not be revealed by a ASIRT.

BRIAN BERESH: Would not be revealed. They will look strictly at the conduct of the police officers and make a judgement based on that.

MG: Your client Chief Adam Allan leads the Athabasca Chipewyan on First Nation in northern Alberta. How would you describe the the trust or the levels of trust between the indigenous communities in that part of the country and the RCMP?

BRIAN BERESH: Well, it has certainly been strained. As you can appreciate my client had a good relationship with the chief of the RCMP in Fort McMurray because that group also polices his community, but this has caused extreme distrust. Further, as you can appreciate, the RCMP were asked to release the video voluntarily and they refused to do it.

MG: And subsequently, it was leaked to the news media.

BRIAN BERESH: Well, this came about as a result of court application for a stay of proceeding where the video was attached as an exhibit. So it's in the public realm and that's how it became public.

MG: Will your client participate, if there's no independent inquiries you're calling for, will your client participate in an investigation led to by ASIRT?

BRIAN BERESH: I assume that he will. I haven't had a chance to discuss it with him because of how things unfolded last week, but he certainly wants to get to the bottom of this. As you can appreciate, part of his anger that night is a reflection of the racism that he has seen inflicted upon his community members.

MG: And do you see this is as a continuum of the story that we're seeing across Canada, throughout the United States, around the world in terms of people speaking out against police activity?

BRIAN BERESH: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's time for us to look at the militarization of the police force that is here to protect us, not to control us, because he's quickly coming to the view that the RCMP intend to simply control First Nations people, not necessarily just to police them.

MG: Brian Beresh, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

BRIAN BERESH: Thank you.

MG: Brian Beresh is the lawyer for Chief Adam Allan. At a time when systemic police racism is front and centre, the RCMP is not the only police force under scrutiny. In Ontario, the Special Investigations Unit is looking into what happened when D'Andre Campbell died. Campbell was a young black man who had schizophrenia. He was shot and killed in April when he called 9-1-1 and Peel Police came to his house last week. The SIU revealed that the officer involved has not turned over his notes, nor has he agreed to an interview. Erick Laming is a PhD candidate in criminology at the University of Toronto. He studies the use of force by police and the way police are held accountable when people die or are injured in these sorts of incidents. Erick Laming, good morning to you.

ERICK LAMING: Good morning.

MG: How unusual is it for a police officer not to hand over notes or agree to an interview in this kind of scenario where someone is killed in an interaction with police?

ERICK LAMING: It's pretty unusual. I mean, in most cases that I've seen SIU investigated, they've essentially investigated over 300 cases a year. Most of the time, the subject officer, which is the officer involved, will be conducted to do an interview and they'll hand over their notes immediately. So it's a little bit unusual in this case.

MG: Is there anything that would compel the SIU, the officer to speak with the SIU? Is there any reason that he has to do that?

ERICK LAMING: No subject officers aren't obligated or aren't legally compelled to to be conducted for an interview. It also depends on what the lawyer for that officer believes. I mean, they can tell them know to do it if you don't want to. But witness officers are legally compelled. So, I mean, there is a little bit of investigative, I guess, issues that can be completed by the investigators if they need to get to the bottom of this.

MG: There are also questions around how the SIU conducts interviews with the family members of those who've died. There's the story of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, a 29-year-old Toronto woman whose family called police for mental distress help to her apartment. She ended up falling 24 stories to her death. Her family recently said that they're postponing interviews with the SIU after they say that information about this case was leaked to the media. What sort of relationships are expected between investigators and the families and the loved ones of victims?

ERICK LAMING: It can be strained. A lot of, especially minority community members might be a little bit suspicious of the investigators because I mean, atleast the SIU investigators, there's no current police officers on staff, but there are a lot of former police officers. So they're still viewed as a law enforcement agency in that kind of aspect. So a lot of community members who are victim's family, they might not they might not be so compelled to speak with investigators because of issues such as that.

MG: Because they don't they don't feel as though the police officers or the former police officers who might be part of that investigative team are going to be fair and unbiased?

ERICK LAMING: Yeah. Partially it. It also goes to how strong the effectiveness of the oversight agency is to because there's been a lot of, you know, history with these agencies that they have no teeth when it comes to charging or essentially when it gets to that point, convicting police officers.

MG: What do you mean by that? No teeth? Tell me more about that.

ERICK LAMING: Well, some of the agencies across Canada don't even have the authority to lay criminal charges. They have to refer it to the crown. I mean, there's a lot of inconsistencies with the oversight agencies. A lot of them, again, have police officers that are current currently enlisted within that province doing the investigation. So there really isn't that much independence when it comes to the police oversight.

MG: What do we know about the trigger for an oversight body to start investigating police? What leads to that moment?

ERICK LAMING: So essentially, it's really up to the police service to inform that oversight, to see that there might be a case to investigate. That's consistent across across Canada for this oversight agency. So in the case of Chief Allan Adam, I mean, each investigative mandate is different, but they all kind of go along the same line. If it's a serious injury or a death, then they will invoke their mandate. So in the case of Chief Allan Adam, the RCMP obviously didn't think that was a serious injury and it wouldn't be the mandate of ASIRT, so they wouldn't contact them.

MG: What do you make of that? I mean, the fact that the RCMP reviewed the dash cam video that has been seen across this country and beyond and decided not to send it for an independent investigation before the chief and his counsel went public.

ERICK LAMING: Extremely concerning. This is not an isolated incident because these incidents happen across Canada. In my research from community members, indigenous community members, they tell me the exact same thing happens to them. They get they get beat up. They don't result in serious injury that would be defined under the mandate of an oversight agency. So they would never be notified to go and investigate. This is what I guess the RCMP in Wood Buffalo in Alberta figured out.

MG: As an indigenous man yourself, what does that say about the level of trust or lack thereof between communities, indigenous communities, First Nations and the RCMP?

ERICK LAMING: Yeah, it's not getting better. That's for sure. Because you see these more and more of these cases and if we have video of this too, it's going to cause a lot of a lot more distress within these communities. And again, I just can speak through my research with the between members that I interview and it's not, right now, it's a very broken trust.

MG: We're also talking about what happened on Friday in the death of Rodney Levi, who was shot by an RCMP officer in New Brunswick. There's a Quebec police watchdog that's looking into this case. Why is a Quebec police watchdog looking into an incident that happened in New Brunswick?

ERICK LAMING: Because New Brunswick doesn't have an oversight agency to do this. They have never. So what happens is if there's a serious police incident in New Brunswick, they will either contact another oversight agency or another police service. Usually they'll contact Nova Scotia's serious incident response team. But in these two cases with Rodney Levi and Chantel Moore a couple weeks ago, they contacted the BEI, which is Quebec's oversight agency, to do that. And there's a lot of problems with Quebec's BEI, most of the investigators are, pretty sure a Globe and Mail article came out today informing everyone that I think only one staff member is indigenous and there's no other minorities on staff. So, I mean, it goes to the representation of these oversight bodies, too. And it goes to mobilizations. So, I mean, Quebec, it's beside New Brunswick, but it could take them, you know, a day or more to get to the case and that can be, that could be very timely.

MG: The commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki, has been speaking over the last week talking about the actions of her members. Listen to what she says about oversight of the RCMP.

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VOICE: We are always welcome to reviews. Good professional policing is probably one of the most reviewed professions. And we have ourselves the Complaints Commission. We have the different serious incident response teams across each province. We do internal reviews. We are held to a very high standard and we need to keep that high standard.

MG: Erick Laming, you've said that the investigative bodies are toothless in some ways. What changes are needed to improve police oversight and renew that trust that is so important between police and the communities that they serve?

ERICK LAMING: There is a lot that we need to do. First, we need to have consistency across Canada. We can't have some provinces having an oversight body and others that don't. In the end, some of them that don't, they don't have. I mean, if I have another police service comes to investigate. So just to give you an example and none of it, the RCMP police, they're OK. They've shot and killed, I think, four or five residents in the last four years. They're the auto police service goes to investigate. We don't really know anything about the case. So in that sense, we have no transparency. Right. So, I mean, that's an issue in and of itself. So we need consistency. These oversight agencies need to need to have authority to to do their jobs properly, lay charges when necessary. That needs to be consistent. They need to be transparent because a lot of the agencies right now don't even release the reports. So how do we even know how they reach these decisions? So that's something that needs to be done. We need representation on these bodies. Going back to the Quebec BEI's example. If they're all white investigators and they're investigating indigenous deaths or black death. I mean, how does that improve your trust in these oversight agencies? And then maybe we should think about should current police officers be involved in these processes? That's that's up for debate because some of them are not. I mean, it could be value. It could be valuable to have police officers for investigative techniques, but that's the question. And then lastly, maybe we should look at expanding the mandate of some of these bodies, because going back to Chief Allan Adam, if that case didn't meet the serious injury mandate, we would never know really that it happened. So I think these oversight agencies to look at maybe just normal use of force cases and especially if it has an impact on the community.

MG: Erick Laming, good to speak with you. Thank you.

ERICK LAMING: You too. Thank you.

MG: Erick Laming, PhD candidate in criminology at the University of Toronto. Ian Scott was the head of Ontario's Special Investigations Unit for five years between 2008 and 2013. He's also the author of the book, Issues in Civilian Oversight of Policing in Canada. Ian Scott, good morning to you.

IAN SCOTT: Good morning.

MG: Are police oversight bodies like the SIU toothless?

IAN SCOTT: No, they're not toothless. I mean, they can always be improved, but they do have a criminal mandate. When I was there, I laid over 50 charges against police officers. There are a number of that's continuous since I've left. You know, for example, the very high profile trial involving Constable Forcillo in Toronto, the shooting of Sammy Yatim. I don't think the general view of certainly the accused in this situation is that the SIU is toothless, toothless, if it brings a case like that to the criminal court system.

MG: But those are very uncommon. I mean, the charges that are laid by special investigations units and certainly convictions are very low compared to general society. Would you not concede?

IAN SCOTT: Yeah, that's true. But you have to remember, the mandate of the SIU is invoked whenever there is a death or serious injury or allegations of sexual assault. The nature of policing means that there is going to be non consensual contact with the public. There are going to be situations, many of them in the serious injury area, where after investigation it's concluded that the serious injuries just suffered. We don't know who has suffered, but the reality is this happens with police is justified and accordingly, there will not be any criminal charges.

MG: How do you we know though? If you take a look at the D'Andre Campbell case, I mean the officer who is the subject officer in this is refusing to give an interview or hand over notes.

IAN SCOTT: Right. Well, he has the same constitutional and common law rights that any suspect has in Canada. The SIU does not have the ability to suspend those kind of rights. And I don't think they should, because if you got a compelled statement, it would not be admissible in court. So there's not really much value in reviewing or analyzing a statement that will be ruled ultimately inadmissible.

MG: What does it mean for the impression of transparency if that happens? I mean, that's the law, but, you know, the law has to be done, but also seen to be done and justice has to be done, but also seem to be done. So what does that mean in terms of the impression if that's the case and the officer who's at the centre of an incident like that doesn't speak up to the oversight body?

IAN SCOTT: Well, you're right in terms of of public perception, that would say, look, there's a piece of the puzzle that's missing here. I fully understand that, but the reality is that in our society, criminal law is kind of the ultimate intrusion of the state on one's liberties and we have a lot of procedural protections which transcend policing to all of society. And it's the same reason why you can't grill or compel a statement out of any suspect. So I subscribe to that theory. I mean, there's another side to this, which is that if the officer decides to give his notes or give a statement, it is then for voluntary at that point. It can be reviewed and if indeed the charges laid, that statement would be admissible. So, you know, there's a bit of a quid pro quo going on there. And yes, that's true. There are situations where it would be valuable, obviously, to give a statement. I mean, more information is always better than less information, but there are many cases, not only in the police oversight area, but in general criminal investigations where cases are solved and either charges laid or at least resulted in somebody's satisfaction that through other aspects of evidence, either forensics evidence, post-mortem autopsies, other witnesses are at the scene or surveillance, you know video evidence, one kind or another.

MG: Erick Laming raised a couple of points and we just have a few minutes left, so I just want to run through them quickly. One is around this issue of who is actually on these investigative bodies. He says there's not enough representation from black and indigenous communities. Is that a fair criticism?

IAN SCOTT: Yeah, it is. I mean, we struggle with this issue. When I was at the SIU ironically, when I was there the issue was more about gender. We were trying to get more women to be investigators. And also another sort of factor was more civilians.

MG: And that's the other point.

IAN SCOTT: When you're trying to get investigators for an organization like this, there's race, gender, pass background and the ability to do these investigations. I mean, if charges are laid, they go into the criminal court system. The officers have a cadre of very good lawyers they rely upon and inevitably the investigation is going to be attacked, as for one reason or another, such that it will create a reasonable doubt in the mind of the judges, the jury. So you have to have good investigators. So, you know, there's a lot of factors in the air. But in the ideal world, yeah, you want to have, you want any institution to reflect the percentage of the population in which it has to serve. So this should be addressed

MG: Is the investigation steered at all by the fact that there are former police officers on those investigative bodies?

IAN SCOTT: Well, that's a difficult question to answer. I like to think because, of course, there could be some very subtle processes involved. But at least with the SIU, it was all reviewed ultimately by me for those five years, a director who by law cannot be a former police officer. So, you know, if I view there are problems, problems where questions were asked or people that weren't interviewed, I'd send it back for more investigation. But you know some of these issues can be very subtle. And sometimes perhaps I miss the subtleties. So what we try to do is get a mix. It's important to have that kind of experience with former police officers. And the SIU unlike, say ASIRT in Alberta, does not have seconded officers. So at least the officers who were there have hopefully made a dedicated move in their lives and this is going to be their new career. It's not simply you know a station they're passing through. I think that helps a lot. There's an issue that arose if we had one more minute.

MG: Just a few seconds,.

IAN SCOTT: OK, notification. In Alberta one of the reasons why they were such delays, it has to go through the director of law enforcement in Alberta. That's bound to lead to delays. At least in Ontario, the police services have a duty to immediately notify the SIU, which I think helps in the investigation.

MG: Ian Scott, good to speak with you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

IAN SCOTT: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

MG: Ian Scott, former head of the Special Investigations Unit in Ontario and the author of the book Issues in Civilian Oversight in Policing in Canada. We did ask for comment on this story from both the SIU and the Alberta Special Incident Response Team, both of whom were unwilling to comment on an ongoing investigation. Coming up in about 90 seconds on The Current.

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VOICE: Dear Banff Centre, thank you for my time here. Thank you for allowing me to be an artist. Thank you for allowing me to be a person and thank you for allowing me to find myself through my artistry.

MG: These are tense times for the Banff Centre for the Arts and Creativity. We'll talk about the move to lay off most of its staff members and what happens next. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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CBC Class of 2020 promo

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. The excitement is building here on this program, in this building, across the country. Summer is coming. The school year, such as it is, is coming to an end and we on the program are getting ready to celebrate the class of 2020. Since the pandemic has put traditional graduation events on hold, we will be hosting our own radio version of a high school ceremony on Wednesday. Principal Karen Hudson, named an outstanding principal of 2019, will give the welcome address and she let us in on the preparations underway at her school for their socially distanced graduation.

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VOICE: The gym. And this is the best part is because they're going to be decorating it. And we have so many ideas for the students and what we want to create for them. I wonder if the lights are going to come on. So the students will come in through the cafeteria. This is going to take over three days or so, where we're we're going to bring them in by the surnames. And then because we want the students to be able to celebrate with their family members to make sure that they have spots that will be listed on the floor here. So parents will stand here. But it's all worth it. It's all worth it because if there's any way that we can make them see that they're important to us and that this is only something that we can do given these abnormal circumstances, at least it's something. And it's we're going to call their names and say what they've accomplished, where they're going, just as if they were going through a regular graduation. We're just trying to think of ways to capture the special occasion for our students. They will walk up those steps there, they will pick up the diploma then they will walk down those new steps, which is going to have some words on it, saying you're awesome, you're unique. Congratulation grads of 2020. You did it.

MG: Karen Hudson, the principal at Auburn Drive High School in Cole Harbour, Nova Scotia. It's going to take three days to pass everyone through that ceremony. Our virtual high school ceremony will take place this Wednesday, just one day. We'll kind of cram it all in. Principal Hudson will be part of it. She is a force of nature, as you heard, and looking forward to having her on this program. And then Thursday, we will celebrate the achievements of post-secondary graduates in the class of 2020. All of that coming up this week on The Current.

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Juxtaposition between government response to COVID-19 deaths and illicit drug deaths is jarring

Guests: Donald MacPherson

MG: I am Matt Galloway and you are listening to The Current.

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VOICE: This morning, the B.C. coroner's office announced 170 people in British Columbia died from overdoses in the month of May. I cannot express how difficult this news has been to hear. My thoughts and condolences go to the families and friends of those who have lost their loved ones and I share your grief.

MG: You can hear the pain in Dr. Bonnie Henry's voice there. British Columbia's provincial health officer was announcing a record setting number and not one that anyone wanted to celebrate. 170 people died from illicit drug overdoses in that province in May. If you put that in context, in the last three months, there have been more than 400 drug-related deaths. That's more than double the number of deaths from COVID-19 in British Columbia. The two issues are indeed related. Donald MacPherson is Executive Director of the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition, an adjunct professor at Simon Fraser University's Faculty of Health Science. Donald MacPherson, good morning.

DONALD MACPHERSON: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard that number 170 deaths?

DONALD MACPHERSON: A bunch of emotions. Bonnie Henry, our provincial health officer out here in BC certainly spoke for so many of us as she expressed those emotions. It's a tragic, tragic loss. And then my emotions turned to anger that we are still in the midst of this overdose crisis. This illicit drug toxicity crisis, as our coroner names it now. It's an ongoing catastrophic failure of our systems of responding to people with people in pain, people with great trauma and people who are using substances.

MG: What does that mean? An illicit drugs toxicity crisis? When you say that rather than an overdose crisis, what does that mean?

DONALD MACPHERSON: Well, Matt, if you went into a bar and you had a beer and you got halfway through the beer and dropped dead, people wouldn't say, gee, Matt overdosed on alcohol. And that's what's happening. You know, something was in your substance that killed you. It's simple as that. And it would be treated like a poisoning, a public health poisoning emergency and there would be an all points bulletin to go out to warn people that there's a toxic substance in our alcohol or our food or our water or whatever else is killing people. And overdose implies oh, Mat just took too much. Well, no, Matt didn't know what was in his substance that he was taking.

MG: Do we know what's in the drugs now in British Columbia that's making them so deadly?

DONALD MACPHERSON: Absolutely. And part of me feels that this is totally predictable. Where we are now is totally predictable. We know that in 2012, fentanyl was found in four percent of the deceased that coroner's had to deal with. And that rose in 2013 to 15 percent, 2014, 25 percent, 2015, 29, 2016, 67 percent. 2017, 82 percent and it stayed in the high 80s since then. So we've seen this coming for about eight years and we have not had the same kind of response, the public health response that we have had when we saw the pandemic coming. We identified our first case and we mobilized people. This is totally predictable because of the drug policy framework that we continue to use.

MG: There were steps that were taken in late March at the beginning of this pandemic when the provincial government in B.C. announced safe supply measures for drug users. What difference did that make, if any?

DONALD MACPHERSON: That's the beginning of a new paradigm, and that's what we're hoping comes out of this catastrophe. We have two, if not three public health crises coming together. The the illicit drug toxicity crisis, the COVID-19 crisis, and now the acknowledgement that we have systematic racism in our country. And institutions are grudgingly coming to the conclusion that, yes, they will admit this. And that's what we need to do with our drug policy. We need leaders, political leaders, we need community leaders to say enough is enough, our systems are so broken they can't be fixed. We need to create a new system and a safe supply program is could be if we want it to be the beginning of actually acknowledging that there is another way to address people who are at risk of being poisoned by their drug supply.

MG: How closely linked to that is the issue of decriminalization. Bonnie Henry has spoken forcefully about this. Are the two intimately connected? Can they exist because there are political elements to some that perhaps would be more risky if you're, you know, those elected leaders than others? So do you have to do the two at the same time?

DONALD MACPHERSON: Ideally, yes, you do. You decriminalize possession for personal use of drugs so that you immediately send a message to anyone who is using these substances that they're not criminalized. You try and bring people out of the shadows. A combination of criminalization of vulnerable people, people at risk of dying from a poison drug supply and COVID-19 has been devastating and that's partly why we're seeing an increase in numbers. So it's very important to see the connections between the criminalization of of people who are using these substances and the substances themselves and the existence of a highly toxic illegal drug market controlled by organised criminals and unregulated dealers. Safe supply is a of the beginning of looking at it differently and saying the most important thing is to acknowledge that people use drugs, will continue to use drugs, and our role is to try and keep people safe. That's what we do around all other risky activities where there are risks. We try and promote health and safety in these activities.

MG: It feels like we've talked about this issue again and again, but how difficult is it for the politicians to come to terms with the stigma that is still attached with what you just said? That people will use drugs and so as a society, we need to make it as safe as possible. If people are going to do that, then we have to figure out ways to take those risks out. Because politicians are fearful in some ways of this, so how difficult is it for them to come to terms with that stigma, do you think?

DONALD MACPHERSON: Well, it's difficult for them to come to agreement on what to do. There are many politicians over the years that have said, yes, the war on drugs has failed. It's like the Leonard Cohen song, everybody knows the war is over, everybody knows the good guys lost. There's a tremendous sense in the parlours of Canadian society that what we're doing is absolutely futile. Politicians at all levels, municipal, provincial, federal, need to say those words. They need to say out loud that our systems are broken and the way we have been doing things is not working, and we need to take a new approach. And this is as good a time as ever to start that new approach being developed.

MG: Are you confident that it's as good a time as ever, but are you confident that that that opportunity will be seized upon?

DONALD MACPHERSON: On a good day, Matt. I'm confident because I see the strength in our public health community out here. You have tremendous public health leadership in this country. It's stunning to watch a situation where our politicians actually listen to our public health leadership. And as as they guide us through this pandemic, public health leaders have been saying we need to decriminalise, we need to create a legal regulated supply of substances for people at risk free for several years now in B.C..

MG: Have you seen that leadership federally?

DONALD MACPHERSON: At the federal level, there is a reticence to be clear that this system we're dealing with is broken. It's fascinating to watch the systematic racism discussion as people sort of come to the conclusion and have a hard time saying, yes, you're right, systematic racism does exist in Canada, in our institutions. We need to say exactly the same thing when it comes to drugs.

MG: Just finally, just in the last minute that I have, there might be people who are listening to this wondering why somebody would take that risk of using street drugs right now. When the supply is so dangerous. When we know to your point that it's it's a poison supply. What would you say about that, why somebody would do that?

DONALD MACPHERSON: I think people have to understand that the pain and the trauma that exists in our society and that people are struggling and they they do, desperate people do desperate things. And we have to understand the depths of the pain in our society and not judge people, lend a hand, create a system that embraces compassion and works towards bringing people to the healthiest possible conclusion that they can find themselves. We have a letter with over 60 sign ons on the desk of the ministers of Health, Justice and public safety. Our partners, the Canadian HIV AIDS Legal Network, the Legal Society and the Coalition have worked together to put that there, calling for an immediate decriminalization as part of the COVID response to acknowledge the dire situation and fix that people are in and will continue to be in as COVID is not going away. The federal government to do it. They could do it very simply through a an exemption controlled drugs and substances act and or a regulation by cabinet. And we're looking forward to meeting with the federal ministers to discuss that.

MG: Donald MacPherson, I appreciate speaking with you this morning. Thank you.

DONALD MACPHERSON: You're very welcome.

MG: Donald MacPherson, the Executive Director of the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition and an adjunct professor in the faculty of Health Sciences at Simon Fraser University. He was in Vancouver.

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What the temporary closing of the Banff Centre means for Canada’s arts community

Guests: Charlotte Cornfield, Paul Seesequasis

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I remember coming here as a 10-year-old to the gifted youth program and it was thrilling.

VOICE 2: It's a great experience. I love all the mountains and the place here is great and all the master clinicians are wonderful.

MG: For decades, the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity has nurtured and supported Canadian artists, young and old. The pandemic though has been tough on the arts community, and the Centre has had to lay off most of its staff. All summer and fall programs have either been cancelled or moved online. And that has led to great concern in the arts community about the future of this initiative and organization. Charlotte Cornfield is a singer-songwriter based in Toronto. Paul Seesequasis is a writer and curator in Saskatoon. Good morning to you both.

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: Good morning.

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Charlotte, well, you've both been spending time at the Banff Centre. Charlotte, you were there earlier this year. What happened?

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: So I was there in March, right up to when the pandemic kind of hit and my residency was supposed to be three weeks long and it got cut short after the two week mark and we were sent home. And then a few days later, we got news that the, a bunch of the staff had been laid off temporarily. So, yeah, it was a very interesting time to be there for sure.

MG: What was like being there? You were there for songwriting residency. What was it like being there?

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: It was I mean, it was an incredible residency, really wonderful group of people. It was my second time at the Banff Centre and we were really sort of starting to gel as a group and it was a phenomenal experience. But towards that that two week mark, we started to feel that things are starting to change. The mood in the dining hall is different. First, we had to sanitize our hands and the next day they were handing us and the next, like it was, there was this kind of feeling of of doom that sort of was settling on us.

MG: Paul, in the arts community, the Banff Centre looms large. For people outside of the community, why does it matter so much? What is so special about that place that Charlotte was just describing?

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: I think the Banff Centre has been a unique arts venue. It as Charlotte was describing, it certainly is important for Canadian creators, but it's also very much an international place where artists from globally gather from around the world. So when you're there, you're not only meeting creators in your own discipline or feel that you work in, but you're in this atmosphere of artists from all over the place. So it's really in that way it nurtures creativity and it has been a very, very unique place in my experience of going there.

MG: What has it allowed you to do that you wouldn't have been able to do elsewhere?

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: Well, firstly, it's a beautiful place. You're right in the Rockies, so it's gorgeous. You have nature all around you. You have studios like Layton Studios, which are specifically designed by different architects. And it's a place where ccreators can get into their own kind of mindspace, if you will, and have a place to actually focus on their work. And then you have how Charlotte was describing. You have the cafeteria, you have the pub, you have the library, the archives, where artists can gather and you meet people from around the world. So it's for lack of a better word, it's just stimulating and invigorating place.

MG: Charlotte, for you, what have you been able to create in that centre that you wouldn't have been able to do at home in Toronto, for example?

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: Well, the first time I went there in 2015, I just remember marvelling at the fact that for the first time in my life, I had time and space to fully immerse myself in creative thinking and writing. And I went there to kind of conceptualise an album and it just happened naturally. And I was able to sink into this mode that I can't imagine having been able to do anywhere else and without having to think about, because your accommodations and your meals are taken care of and you're just in this gorgeous setting, you don't have to worry about the minutia of day to day life.

MG: The Centre, Paul, has laid off, as I mentioned, most of its staff. It says that this is a temporary closure, but there's real concern around in this moment what will happen for the Banff Centre going forward. What do you think would be lost with out incubators like like the Banff Centre?

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: Well, I think a lot is lost, Matt. The Banff Centre is really a critical part of the overall arts infrastructure in Canada. As Charlotte's describing, it's a place where artists go to create, to focus, to be taken care of, essentially. And it is a critical residency. So I think one of the worries or concerns is what happens next? As you mentioned, there's been all the layoffs and the Banff Centre has always had this kind of dual personality between creativity and conference centres. So are we going to see it shift more, assuming, you know, if and when it reopens, shift more toward the conference centre business model? Strictly for, you know, for economic necessity, or are we still going to see a balance between conference centre and the arts? So I think in my discussions with other creators, that's one of the worries or concerns that we have right now.

MG: Well and we've spoken over the course, I mean it feels like the pandemic has gone on forever, but it's, you know, over the course of the last many weeks, we've spoken with a number of people in the arts communities about how difficult this time has been for them, but also the things that they've had to postpone, put on the shelf. And not just performances, but those incubator programs, the mentoring programs for the next generation. What needs to be done and I'll ask you both this, but I'll start with you, Paul, to make sure that we don't lose more of this country's arts and culture community in this really difficult time?

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: Well, I think there we have seen some support for creators through federal programs, also through, I know for as a writer, I received support through the Writers Union of Canada, which was not a huge amount, $1500, I believe, but at least it helps pay bills. It's really important to recognize that creators who rely on, you know, performances, galleries, museums, venues and all that came to a sudden halt. So it's, as a creator, you know, it's often a precarious existence to begin with and when everything just shuts down, you're left in this kind of state of oh my, what am I going to do next?

MG: What about for you, Charlotte? I mean, the situation is, you know, for musicians you can't tour, but also the venues that you might be involved in helping to run aren't able to bring people in as well. What are you worried about in this moment in terms of what will be left when we get out of this moment?

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: Well, yeah it's, the word unprecedented has obviously been thrown around a lot, but it's the entire ecosystem, the music ecosystem is frozen and there's just so much uncertainty. And I think already musicians and artists are some of the most vulnerable folks. And if we have places like the Banff Centre, which is like, you know, once in a lifetime opportunity to go and create something incredible. If those places are now in jeopardy then, you know, I think we need to do everything we can to keep those things in existence so that when the dust settles, you know, we're not left bereft of creative hubs.

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: When the dust settles. A moment that a lot of people are waiting for. Cross our fingers that there's good things waiting for us on the other side of that. It's good to speak with you both this morning. Thank you.

CHARLOTTE CORNFIELD: Thanks so much, Matt.

PAUL SEESEQUASIS: Have a great day.

MG: Paul Seesequasis is a writer and curator in Saskatoon. Charlotte Cornfeld is a singer-songwriter based in Toronto, talking about the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity, which is having to lay off most of its staff and closing down a number of its programs, some of the moving online and real concerns, as we said, about the health of the arts community in this moment. One of the parts of society that has really taken a blow during this pandemic. That's The Current for today. Coming up, more arts and culture on Q on CBC Radio One. Talia Shlanger, guest host, speaking with the hip hop group Little Brother about their new album. People are still releasing music in these difficult times and you'll hear more about that coming up in a few moments after the CBC News. In the meantime, it would be sad if we didn't play a little bit of Charlotte Cornfield's music. This is the title track off her latest EP. it's called, "In My Corner." I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care of yourself. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "In My Corner" by Charlotte Cornfield]

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June 15, 2020 episode transcript

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