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The AIH Transcript for April 24, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Big questions. We ask RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki about mourning for the death of a Mountie, about what happened to the emergency alert, and whether the mass shooting in Nova Scotia has damaged trust in her force.

CH: Coronavirus outbreaks are shutting down major meatpacking plants across the country and leaving hundreds of workers sick. Tonight, we asked the federal agriculture minister what action Ottawa is prepared to take.

CO: Not your average bear. There are cheers for a Chicago man who helped save the life of a gunshot victim by using a stuffed teddy bear.

CH: Flu surcharge. Life may have changed dramatically in the last hundred years, but aspects of the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic reverberate. A new audio art project lets you hear the echoes.

CO: Shouted from the rooftop. Ramadan may feel different this year in most places around the world, so a mosque in Minneapolis is making sure the call to prayer sounds the same.

CH: And this is what it sounds like when duvets cry. On tonight's journey into the bowels of the As It Happens Archives, we meet an inventor who believed he could save marriages with a blanket that filters flatulence. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that knows how easy it is to blow your cover.

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Part 1: Alerting people about gunman's fake police car sooner may have saved lives, RCMP commissioner says

RCMP Commissioner

Guest: Brenda Lucki

CH: Today, the RCMP laid out its most detailed account so far of a shooter's lethal path. The Mounties in Nova Scotia are still combing through multiple crime scenes and seeking more witnesses, but they filled in some of the blanks around how the attack started, how it was carried out, and how the RCMP responded. Here's Superintendent Darren Campbell today.

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DARREN CAMPBELL: I don't think it's difficult for non-police personnel or the public to understand that it would obviously complicate things. You know, I've been a police officer for almost 30 years now, and I can't imagine any more horrific set of circumstances when you're trying to search for someone that looks like you. The dangers that that causes, the complications that that causes, that obviously was an advantage that the suspect had on the police, that he had on the public, that he had on every person that he encountered through the course of his rampage.

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CH: There was RCMP Superintendent Darren Campbell speaking to reporters today. Meanwhile, today marks the funeral of RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, who was killed in this weekend's attack. There's also a virtual vigil tonight in Nova Scotia to remember the 22 victims. Brenda Lucki is the commissioner of the RCMP. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Commissioner, first of all, please accept our condolences for the loss of your constable, Heidi Stevenson.

BRENDA LUCKI: Thank you so much Carol. I tell you, it's been overwhelming, the response from Canadians, from retired members, from people in the community. It's been absolutely overwhelming.

CO: Her funeral was held today. What message would you send to your members who are affected by this loss?

BL: It's a different world with COVID. All the rules that we follow to mourn are not there. But for them to find a way to deal with the situation and if they need help, they need to get help. And sometimes it's just their past experience, something gets triggered, so they need to recognize that and not be afraid to ask for help.

CO: A lot of the officers, a lot of Mounties who are in the Moncton area certainly are reliving grief, having remembered what happened to three of their members who were killed and two wounded. There were a number of lessons that were to have been learned from what happened in Moncton. I wonder if they were applied here. I'm wondering, first of all, if, you know, if Constable Stevenson was understood that should happen after Moncton, did she have armor? Was she wearing body armor and did she have a carbine with her?

BL: She had a carbine. The hard body armor, I'm not sure. I know that all members, when the call came in, they were advised to put their hard body armor on.

CO: And whatever lessons were learned from Moncton, do you think that...

BL: Yeah, absolutely. You know, one lesson that we did learn -- and it's funny, we did go back into those reports after the incident started or occurred just to make sure we don't make the same mistakes twice. And one of them was moving forward. It's essential that the best practices of leveraging social media as a vehicle for all communications. Obviously, there's now the emergency alert systems. But, you know, in this situation, the command centre used what they knew and that was social media to alert people. That was one of the lessons learned.

CO: Do you think it was effective on the weekend to have used Twitter? Do you think that was an effective way to communicate with the public?

BL: That is one effective way. Absolutely. Could it have been different if we use the provincial alert system? You know, the more ways you can alert people, the better.

CO: Should that have been used on Saturday night and Sunday morning?

BL: I can't say for sure if it should have. What I would say is that they did alert through Twitter. Whether it's going door to door, if it's social media or alert systems, it's just about making sure that people are alerted.

CO: We heard in the briefing this morning from Superintendent Darren Campbell, who said that at what points they learned that the man was possibly driving a mock police car and by dawn, by early morning, they had heard from the former girlfriend. And she said that they alerted the officers, the police involved in the search. Why do you think the public was not alerted at that point that this man might have been masquerading as a police officer in a police car?

BL: I think the instant reaction -- and it's a very easy one to put what we call a BOLO out, because that can be done over the radio. And then steps were taken to start activating announcements through Twitter shortly thereafter.

CO: You know, it's possible that people died because they thought it was a genuine police officer.

BL: Yeah, I'm really at a loss for words because it just saddens me. Any loss of life is one life too many. We always have to strive to do better because anytime there's loss of life, you know, we take that inside, even though we probably should be more you know -- we're trained to get into harm's way. It doesn't take away from, you know, feeling like there's more we could do.

CO: Right. Isn't that possible that lives could have been saved if the public could've known that he was masquerading as a police officer?

BL: Anything is possible. Absolutely.

CO: People were stopped. They understood that he was safe. There's a woman in a car. We spoke to her husband. It's quite possible she believed that he was a police officer. Once police knew that he was possibly in a police car, that the public should have been alerted to that immediately?

BL: Putting myself in that situation, there's always both sides in the sense that -- and I would never say that not alerting people is not a good thing -- but again, like Superintendent Campbell said, we thought we had accounted for the three police cars. So, in fact, that's why it may have not felt like that was something that was a threat. And I think, you know, there's going to be a lot of reviews done. It's up to us to bring certainty to this and to figure out what exactly happened, what we did, why we did it, and see if there is a better way to do it.

CO: But I think that the girlfriend had said that there was another car. She showed that that's possibly where the picture came from. And also the shooting of Constable Morrison and then Constable Stevenson, at that point, they knew that there was a phony police car involved. So that there was a possibility that the public could have been alerted earlier.

BL: Yes, there is a possibility.

CO: Six people were killed in the intervening time.

BL: It's such a tragedy.

CO: So why no message sooner?

BL: The decisions were made based on what they knew at the time. Unless I was there, could I actually give you a reason? And that's what the review will absolutely do.

CO: Is that an answer you're hoping to get yourself?

BL: Absolutely. There should be no life lost in vain. And it's not just about the alert, we're going to look at everything we did and see if we did what we were trained to do and do the best we could have. And if there's a way of doing that, then if we can do it better, absolutely. Then we need to do that.

CO: There was discussion at the press conference today and certainly in the community about possible loss of trust and faith in the force, in the RCMP. Do you think that you have lost the trust of some Canadians?

BL: I imagine we have. And I think Superintendent Campbell said it best when he said it is a cornerstone of our relationships with the communities. And it's not something that once you have it, you have it forever. You always have to earn the trust. And we earn our trust through our actions and our words with the community. And that trust is won or lost every single day. And so we always have to work to keeping the trust that we have with people.

CO: Commissioner Lucki thank you.

BL: Thank you Carol.

CH: Brenda Lucki is the commissioner of the RCMP. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music]

COVID Ramadan

Guest: Jaylani Hussein

CH: Last night marked the start of Ramadan. For 30 days, Muslims around the world will mark the holy month with fasting and prayer. And under normal circumstances, there would also be nightly trips to the mosque. But this year, to reduce the spread of coronavirus, evening prayers will have to take place at home instead. Despite that, one Minnesota neighbourhood has found a way to keep up a sense of community, even from afar. Throughout the month, residents of the Cedar Riverside neighbourhood of Minneapolis can hear the call to prayer five times a day as it's broadcast on loudspeakers from a local mosque. Here's how that sounded last night.

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[Man praying]

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CH: Jaylani Hussein is the executive director of the Minnesota Branch of Care -- The Council on American-Islamic Relations. We reached him in Minneapolis.

CO: Jaylani, first of all, Ramadan Mubarak.

JAYLANI HUSSEIN: Allah Kareem. Thank you so much.

CO: Now, this is quite something that you had -- the call to prayer last night. Tell us what that was like.

JH: It was very emotional. As someone who played a role in making it happen, it really had an impact on me. And just watching people looking out and enjoying it and a crowd of people taking videos. It was really remarkable.

CO: Describe a bit more of that scene. You were at the mosque. Where did you watch this and what did you see?

JH: So for this first one, the speakers that are broadcasting are on the top of the mosque. And we had the call to prayer on top. And so we were outside and on the top roof. And we were looking at the towers, which are just right next to the mosque there. And all of these apartments have actually balconies. And you could just see people coming outside of their balconies -- children, older people, families. And you could see the joy in their face and also with their phones looking out and recording this historic moment.

CO: What do you think that was like for those Muslims in Minneapolis to see and hear that last night?

JH: Well, with this moment where our mosques are closed and following the guidelines to slow the spread of COVID-19, and the beginning of this beautiful month of Ramadan where we actually spend most of our time in our mosques and together. It's families and communities. The call to prayer, we felt really is an opportunity to be connected to our mosque, even though we are not able to pray inside of them. So it's really a powerful moment. And I think for most people, they believe that, you know, America is our home. And the call to prayer is, I think, a signifier that you are home, because that's one big difference when you leave the United States and you go to maybe, you know, a Muslim majority country -- one of the first things you do is you hear the call to prayer.

CO: And it's quite extraordinary when you are in countries where five times a day you get that sound. It just fills the air, doesn't it? And it is an important part of the culture there. How did you manage to get this accomplished?

JH: Well, I think we had the leadership of the mayor. And to be honest with you, I think the city of Minneapolis and the state of Minnesota have been always trying to find ways to really live out the ideals of our Constitution and to make sure religious freedom is protected and celebrated and actually practised. And I think this was a big victory for religious freedom in the United States and Minnesota and Minneapolis to lead that effort, I think it's significant. I think we have people who are always going to think within the same lens over the anti-Muslim movement in this country and across the world. But people forget that, you know, church bells have been ringing for a long time in the United States and that's a freedom of religion. And Muslims have the same right.

CO: And that's an argument we've heard and it's been not listened to. Obviously, the mayor, who is not a Muslim, would point out in Minneapolis, responded to that. So is it a recording or a live Mu'adhin? How did you go about doing this?

JH: So this is an actually live Muadhin. And since this is very special, usually this is always the case. There are some places that may have a recorded version of it, but usually it's a live Muadhin. And even in this mosque since its inception, they've always had a live Muadhin for all of its prayers. So that the mosque leaders were open to the opportunity for all of our mosques in Minnesota to send a representative who can give the Adhan at least once or twice throughout this month.

CO: How different is the holy month of Ramadan this year, given you're in the middle of this COVID-19 situation?

JH: You know, it's extremely challenging because month of Ramadan, everything is individually focused by fasting as an individual, right. But at the same time, also, it's the month that we come together. Every night in Ramadan usually we pack the mosques and pray late evening prayer called Taraweeh. And every night we break the fast together as a family. And most importantly, also on the weekends, big, large gatherings where communities come together and break their fast together. So it's a month of being together. It's a month of practicing this fasting together. So it's going to be really challenging.

CO: Because I understand that during the day there's a lot of reflection and perhaps the isolation allows you can do that. But in the evening the Iftar, the fast breaking meal, is a big moment of sharing food and being together. So that's what you're missing, I guess.

JH: Absolutely. And the evening prayers, you know, even though they're not obligatory. The Taraweeh prayer is probably one of the most highly attended prayers in the entire year. For 30 days you're going to have every mass filled to almost 80 percent of its capacity or more. It really becomes this everyday event with your community.

CO: You know that your city is doing this -- there are dozens of cities in Germany and Holland and few other places who this year have allowed for the call to prayer to be broadcast for their people. Do you think this can be a game changer for our communities to recognize what it means for Muslims to have this moment?

JH: Yeah. You know, I think right now and during this time, the silver lining of the call to prayer is just such a powerful testament. And at the end of actually every call of prayer, the mosque leaders actually say to pray at home. So there is also that reminder. So it's a powerful connection in a time when physical connection is not possible.

CO: Jaylani I wish you a joyous holiday. I wish you Ramadan Kareem. And thank you for speaking with us.

JH: It is an honour to be on your show. Thank you so much. Ramadan Mubarak to everybody.

CH: Jaylani Hussein is the executive director of the Minnesota Branch of Care -- The Council on American Islamic Relations. He's also part of an initiative to broadcast the call to prayer to a Minneapolis neighborhood during Ramadan. We reached Mr. Hussein in Minneapolis.

[Music]

Chicago Shooting

Guest: Ivan Escobar

CH: Ivan Escobar is no stranger to emergencies. As a nurse in Chicago, he's seen more than his share of traumatic injuries. But last October, Mr. Escobar found himself working to save a man's life, not in the ER, but on the streets of Humboldt Park. And while he didn't have access to emergency equipment, he was able to intervene -- thanks to what was readily available, including a nearby teddy bear. Yesterday, Mr. Escobar was honoured by the American Red Cross as a 2020 Nurse Hero. We reached him in Chicago.

CO: Ivan, what does it mean to you to get this award from the American Red Cross?

IVAN ESCOBAR: It means a lot. It humbles me. I like spreading positivity. So it's a good thing.

CO: But you weren't seeking this kind of attention when set out to help somebody last October, were you?

IE: No, no, I didn't expect it.

CO: Let's go back to that day in October. You had your boy in the car, your son Chris, he was 13 then, now 14. Is that right?

IE: Yes.

CO: What did you see that was wrong?

IE: So across from us, across the street, I saw a guy in a hoodie. He just started shooting at some other guys that were crossing the street. And I guess he hit an oncoming car. And we just started hearing a lady scream. So we decided to turn around and just help.

CO: So wait a second. So you see the shoot out. A stray bullet has hit somebody. You hear someone screaming in the car. Why didn't you just carry on and try to get out of there as fast as you could?

IE: I don't know. It happened kind of quick. And we saw the guy after he started shooting. He started running, started leaving. I assume the scene was safe. So we just decided to help. It was just instinct, I guess.

CO: What did you see in the other car that had been hit?

IE: I didn't see the bullet hole through the windshield. I just saw the lady right outside screaming. And as I opened the driver's side door, I see the guy bleeding from his forehead. I quickly grabbed the teddy bear that was there and just placed it on his forehead. And whaile I placed it there I seen in the back seat his three year old daughter was back there. And I was talking to the guy and he was still conscious. He seemed all there.

CO: But he had been hit. What part of his head had he been hit by the bullet?

IE: Right between his eyes.

CO: Good heavens. And he was conscious. And so what did the teddy bear allow you to do?

IE: It just allowed me to stop the bleeding.

CO: You're holding a teddy bear to his head and talking to him.

IE: Yeah.

CO: And did his wife calm down?

IE: Not really. She stopped screaming, but she was still kind of hysterical.

CO: Of course, as one would. And the little girl -- how is she doing?

IE: She looked like she didn't know what was going on. She was 3 years old. After a few minutes, the mom went back there and just carried her in her arms. But she was still kind of hysterical.

CO: I understand she was wearing a princess costume.

IE: Yeah, I think they were heading out to a birthday party themselves.

CO: And so how long before help arrived?

IE: It seemed like forever. But I'm sure it was about two-three minutes before the police got there. And then the ambulance showed up about maybe a minute or two after that.

CO: But you're a nurse, right?

IE: Yes.

CO: So what in your training kicked in as you were helping this man?

IE: I just knew what to do. Right away, I knew I had to stop the bleeding and just keep him alive till like the ambulance got there.

CO: What were other people doing?

IE: Taking pictures, videos, standing around. No one really came up to the car. No one else came up to help.

CO: Are you serious that people were filming this on their phones?

IE: Yes. Yeah. I was shocked when I saw that. I kind of got a little angry. I don't know why people are doing that nowadays.

CO: And no one else but you came up to attend to him.

IE: Yes. As far as bystanders, no one came up.

CO: What was your son, Chris, doing during all this?

IE: Well, I had told him to stay in the car and lock the door just in case. So he was watching from behind the vehicle that got struck because I parked right behind it.

CO: What did your son think of what you did?

IE: He looked at me with big round eyes. He finally got to see what I do at work. So he was real proud. He couldn't wait to tell his friends.

CO: So how is the man? Do you know anything about how he's doing?

IE: Yes. So after about two-three days after the shooting, I get a message on Facebook Messenger. And it's his wife. And they had invited me over to their house. And I met the guy. He actually still had the bullet lodged in his skull. He was fine. He was talking and walking. He just told me he needed to make an appointment to get surgery to get the bullet out. But it never passed his skull.

CO: What? That's amazing.

IE: Yeah.

CO: And how is he now? Do you know? This was last October. Do you know if he got the surgery he needed?

IE: Yeah, he did get the surgery. His wife keeps me updated. She's very grateful. She calls me her guardian angel. They even invited me to dinner. But I declined. I didn't do it for anything else. I did it because it's what I do. You know, I do it at work and I would do it outside of work.

CO: Would he have survived if you hadn't done what you did?

IE: I think so. I'd give it up to God. I think it was all an act of God. If that bullet would have penetrated his skull, I don't think any amount of pressure I would have placed on the wound would have helped him survive.

CO: Did the little girl get another teddy bear?

IE: Actually, when I went to go see them I bought her a teddy bear from Build-a-bear.

CO: You're a sweetheart.

IE: Thank you.

CO: What are your colleagues saying about you getting the American Red Cross award as a hero?

IE: They make fun of me. They call me Hollywood now. [Chuckles]

CO: Ivan I'm glad you were there. And I'm glad that everyone's okay. It's quite something.

IE: Thank you. I appreciate that.

CH: Ivan Escobar was honoured this week by the American Red Cross after saving a gunshot victim by using a teddy bear to help stop the bleeding. We reached Mr. Escobar in Chicago.

[Music]

Sound of the Day: Radio Influenza

CH: As unfamiliar as life may feel right now, humanity has in fact been here before. At an audio archive showcasing a past pandemic is somehow unsettling and comforting all at once. Radio Influenza isn't exactly history, it's art. But it's art based on real newspaper clippings covering the 1918 Spanish flu. Creator Jordan Baseman launched the project two years ago to mark the 100th anniversary of that pandemic. And suddenly it's taken on a whole new resonance. Visitors to Radio Influenza can hear computerized voices, read excerpts from century old newspapers, some verbatim and some with the artist's own edits. The result is a collection that captures some familiar themes: advice on physical distancing, misinformation of course, good news stories, grim ones and entries like this titled simply "Oct. 31st." From Radio Influenza, here's our Sound of the Day.

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VOICE: There is a danger of panic. If you create an unreasoning, a culture of fear, then you create anxiety, hatred, hostility, negativity, depression, frustration and despair. Fear makes allowances, builds rationales and provides a reason for inactivity and stagnation. Fear is contagious. Fear creates fear. Fight fear. Do not accept a state of mind that is fearful. Enjoy yourself. Look around you. There is wonder everywhere. Daydream. Make something for someone or just make something just to make it. Allow yourself to experience sensation, be joyous, and fight fear. Join together to dispel panic, to share information, and to make a positive progressive difference. Reject fear. Reject paranoia. Fight fear. Be free. Share what you have.

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CH: Sound from the art project Radio Influenza created by Jordan Baseman. And based on newspaper clippings from the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic.

[Music]

CO: Minister Bibeau, what message do you have for these workers, first of all, at the Cargill plant in the High River, where nearly 500 of them are sick, one of their colleagues has lost her life -- what do you say?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: It's very difficult. Well, I want to share my thoughts and prayers with them. It must be very hard to lose a colleague. And they are working in some particular environment, obviously. And they are essential workers. It's so important what they do. And I think we don't recognize enough food workers for the important work they do for all of us.

CO: But what are the sacrifices they should make in order to produce food for us?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Well, I think every worker deserves to work in this safe environment. And we are trying, you know, to support the industries and for them to put in place the right measures to protect their workers. These are normally environments where workers are closed one to the other. So now I know that many businesses are, you know, putting in place new measures. Some plastic shields or changing the hours for the pause, for the lunchtime, making some changes in terms of transportation as well, because it's not always within the walls that they get the virus. It might be also in the transit or even at home, because they all have different situation. But we have to put the right measures in place. And this is why we are providing from the federal government's guidance and then the businesses that are working in collaboration with the provincial public health authorities to develop the plan.

CO: This has been going on for weeks as these cases mounted, as people died in this plant and in the Brooks, Alberta plant a worker died. At what point was it necessary for someone else, for some authorities to step in? They did inspections by video conferencing. When did the alarm bells go off for you that there was a real problem with these two plants?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: It's hard to tell. The provincial government is closer to this situation because they are responsible for public health. And at the federal level, we provide the guidance. We are all going through a historical situation and learning as fast as possible and putting the right measures in place.

CO: But you have said in the past, you said you were concerned for the beef farmers who could lose as much as a half a billion dollars by the end of June if they can't get their product to market. You've talked about producing affordable meat products for Canadians so they can have food on their tables. Should we accept that people should get sick and die in order to produce those results?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: No. I think it is the responsibility -- we all have our responsibility -- but at the end of the day, every employer is responsible to put in place the right measures to protect their employees. But we're going through an historical situation where we are building the plane while we are flying. So it's really difficult in the beginning and we don't want to see any workers sick or certainly not dying. So this is why we are supporting the employers to put in place -- to protect their employees.

CO: Right. But you were worried about the repercussions for farmers. You want to keep farmers in business. That's a good thing. You want to keep food on the table affordably for Canadians. But what is the price you're willing to pay in order to produce those results? That's my question.

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Well, we're never ready to pay the price of a life. And we don't want to see the workers getting sick. I think we can do both. We can put in place measures that will protect the employees while they are working. You know, we have to do it in hospitals and we have to do it in food plants because it's essential as well for us to eat. But we can do it in a safe way.

CO: What does it tell you that the inspectors -- they did a video conferencing to inspect the Cargill plant. They did it by videoconference to mitigate risk. What does that tell you that the inspectors won't risk going into those plants where hundreds of workers are expected to show up?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Well, I'm not going to comment the way that the province public health services are doing their inspections. I think everyone is trying to do their best. And we are adapting to a situation that no one has been through before. And when you have workers that are going from one place to another, it always increases the risk for this person.

CO: There are calls for there to be a criminal investigation, given that two people have died in these plants. And there is a law, the Westray law, that could be applied to do an investigation as to whether or not these workers died because of the working conditions. Do you think that that is an approach that should be taken now?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: I'm not going to comment on that. And you know that we would not, you know, get into any kind of RCMP or whatever police or legal investigation.

CO: But that's the way this course might take. So what should Canada, what should the Canadian government, what should you do in order to mitigate the risk of workers who are in these plants and working so closely together that they get sick?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Well, we work in a collaboration with the provinces to put the right prevention measures in place, protocols that we share with them, seeing how we can support the employers in their investment to put in place additional measures, make the investments that are required to protect their employees and make sure that they offer a safe place for work.

CO: Do you recognize that those measures may have failed these people?

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Well, we see that people are sick. We've lost one, and it's definitely too many. So we want to make it, you know, always better. And once again, we're facing something that no one has never faced before.

CO: Minister Bibeau, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

MARIE-CLAUDE BIBEAU: Thank you.

CH: Marie-Claude Bibeau is the federal Minister of Agriculture. We reached her in Gatineau, Quebec.

[Music]

Order of Bananas

CH: You know, sometimes it just gets to be too much. And sometimes the "it" that gets to be too much is an order of bananas. It's not that Ottawa resident Veronique Rousseau doesn't like bananas. In fact, she recently demonstrated an impressive devotion to the fruit. And when she placed an online grocery order not long ago, she really did want a bunch. But what she actually got was a bunch of bunches. And it's more than a little bananas. Veronique Rousseau explained today on CBC Radio's Ottawa Morning.

VERONIQUE ROUSSEAU: I had ordered my groceries online and I thought I was ordering fifteen bananas, but I ended up with fifteen kilos of bananas. So it was actually quite a shock when we got home and I found out that I had 3 full bags of bananas. We didn't count all of the bananas, but some of them and it was well over 100 bananas. We make banana cream pie, banana muffins, banana bread, banana crepes. And then we also froze some bananas. I kept leaving bags of bananas on my front porch and had different friends that would come pick them up. Well, surprisingly, we managed to get through most of them. And I actually just went up to pick up another order today and I did get more bananas. So we actually managed to get through most of them and actually needed the war. And I learned my lesson and now I'm very careful and review my order before I place it.

CH: Ottawa online grocery shopper and banana devotee Veronique Rousseau speaking with CBC Ottawa's Denise Fung.

[Music]

Fart Stories

CH: It tends to be quiet in art galleries and museums. The better for you to really stand in front of each artifact or painting and think, "How long should I stand here looking pensive? Do I look pensive?" But lurking in that harsh or a lot of destructive phantoms just floating around doing damage. They're invisible and they're silent, but deadly. Yeah, I know that's dumb. But we have two flatulence related stories from the As It Happens archives tonight. And in the first one, Al Maitland's jokes are not much better. From December 3rd, 1990 here is how he set the story up.

ALAN MAITLAND: Hey get a wind of this. It's been found that the human fart may be responsible for corroding silverware, destroying photographs, and blackening paintings in galleries and museums. This discovery was sniffed out by Dr. Peter Brimblecombe of the University of East Anglia in England. We've reached him at his home.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Dr. Brimblecombe, how did you discover that bioeffluents, I guess human gas is responsible for for damaging artworks in our galleries and museums?

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, one of the things that interested me was the fact that within museums it's been a long problem of tarnishing of metals. And some of this tarnishing has been thought to be due to the degradation of fibers such as wool and hair. I have been studying wool. And what I found was it gives off some of the damaging sulfide gases, but it looks as though within a gallery at least that people themselves can be a larger source of air pollutants, that they carry moisture into the gallery dust on skin or hair. And also these bio effluence which contain lots of sulfur.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I'm not sure I understand. You're saying that in...chemically...in the actual fart itself is sulfur, is that it?

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: That's right. Reduce sulfur compounds, probably hydrogen sulfide and some organic sulfide. And these can tarnish metal and they can cause pigments in paints too darken, particularly some of the more traditional pigments.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Then I follow you along, the quantity of the sulfides produced by the farting would be responsible for quite a lot of damage or some or how would you calibrate it?

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, I would imagine that it would be very small in any short term, but it presumably contributes to the slow degradation of metals, particularly metals like silver over a long period of time.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I suppose if it were a rainy day -- larger crowds there would be a larger volume of gas.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, when it's wet, museum certainly are more crowded. It's not simply because people want to escape from the rain, but people want to go into the gallery on a day when it's not sunny and they can't do other things. And so, yes, the galleries can be very crowded. I think most museum curators would worry much more about the fact that on a wet day, people are carrying in large quantities of moisture which evaporate in the gallery and make the air a lot damper. And that can cause quite severe problems in many galleries.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Is there anything that can be done about it? I'm not sure how you correct a problem that is so quintessentially human.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: One does wonder. I suppose it is simply asking people to control themselves is a little bit naive. So I think we are looking really at a situation where people like to put objects inside cases in museums and art galleries. Now, clearly that's good from the point of view of security, but it also protects these objects from changes in relative humidity in the gallery and from the possibility of gases, not only from people, but coming in through windows and all sorts of sources.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Have you ever done any exploration on the more anatomical side of things like terms of how much gas one passes in an art gallery or in the course of a day or...

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Right, the general feeling is that about 2 to 3 milligrams of sulfur gas given off by the average person on a day now, that, of course, would depend very much on the kind of diet. Clearly, if you're living on a diet that's largely vegetarian, the chances are that you might give off a rather larger amount of gas. The other question that arises, of course, is to what extent do people in --through the norms of sort of social behavior, modify that release of gas. Another interesting question is that in museums, people sort of seem to be rather trendy now and serve a lot more vegetarian food. So perhaps that is one thing that we wouldn't occurred inside art galleries.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: All those little raw carrots and celery, perhaps.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, I was thinking more of the bean.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Of course, you wouldn't want a table of beans inside the...[laughs] that could cause terrible problems. I've often wondered why the Mona Lisa doesn't have eyebrows, and I think now I have an idea. [Laughter] Is there anything that the galleries themselves can do, though, other than asking people to watch it?

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, I do wonder if it's actually sensible to ask people to watch it. Perhaps the more sensible, immediate thing is to really encourage people to leave wet clothing in a sort of cloakroom. I think that's the prime thing. And then I think the next thing is for galleries to enclose work where at all possible in cases and to make sure that the interiors of those cases do not have potentially damaging materials in them.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: But for now, live the broccoli and the beans in the cloakroom.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: I think for now definitely leave the beans when you're going to dine in an art gallery restaurant.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Dr. Brimblecombe thank you for joining us this evening.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Well, it's been a lot of fun.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Good night.

PETER BRIMBLECOMBE: Good night.

ALAN MAITLAND: Dr. Peter Brimblecombe is a research professor in atmospheric chemistry at the University of East Anglia in England. Beans, beans, they are good for your heart. But as the professor says, they're hell on art.

CH: From our archives, Michael Enright talking to Dr. Peter Brimblecombe in 1990 about the destructive effects of human flatulence on art. And of course, it can also have destructive personal effects, for example, if you share a bed with someone. If one of you has gastro intestinal issues, it can create relationship stress. To put it another way, even if it's really warm under that comforter, you can suffer a severe wind chill. Frank Bibbo had a solution. And in May of 2010 Carol spoke with the science teacher from Roxbury in New York about his invention, the "Better Marriage Blanket."

CO: Mr. Bibbo, was there a kind of eureka moment for you -- a jolt of inspiration for the Better Marriage Blanket?

FRANK BIBBO: Yeah. I'd say there was. I've bow hunted for deer for years. And 15 years ago a guy started using these military surplus chemical suits for deer hunting because they absorb human odor and deers are very sensitive to odor. So I bought a few and I tried them and they seemed to work pretty well. But I noticed that if you were to pass wind in the suit, you couldn't smell a thing. So that light bulb went off and I took a couple of the suits, I cut them into squares, sewed them together. My wife and I made the first prototype blanket. This is back in the 90s and it worked wonderfully well.

CO: I don't want to get too personal, but was there an issue that this blanket was dealing with?

FRANK BIBBO: Well, yeah, I think it's the issue most couples deal with, even if it's only occasionally that, you know, everybody has gas. And it's kind of a funny thing. You know, there were nights where I'd have to sleep out on the couch or she'd have to sleep on it out on the couch. And so I just thought, boy, this is really cool. Neither of us has to sleep on the couch anymore. And I said, someday I'm going to do something with this. It took probably 12 or 13 years later. I finally decided to pursue a patent on this thing. And we are where we are today. We've had a viral video on YouTube and we're now up to almost 1.4 million YouTube views in just a matter of about a week and a half.

CO: Now, you're using some kind of I guess military technology in this suit. So can you just explain how the blanket works?

FRANK BIBBO: Sure. It's very simple. It employs activated carbon. Activated carbon is very well known in science and industry and in household usages as a very efficient odor absorbing medium. There are in activated carbon, millions of microscopic pores that serve as places for molecules to bind the molecules of flatulence will bind to millions of these little pores and they'll stay there and they won't be detected at all. And what we discovered and everybody wants to know is "Where does the smell go? Where does the fart go, you know?" Well, it stays bound on to the activated carbon. And all you need to do is put it in your dryer and run it on high for several minutes and you'll refresh the odor absorbing qualities of the carbon. But my wife and I didn't know that until relatively recently. And, you know, we use this blanket, our prototype for a couple of years at a time. And the odor absorbing ability never seemed to diminish.

CO: But you had two years of wind that you had passed into that blanket living with you?

FRANK BIBBO: Right. Some people freak out about that. The bottom line is it just seems to be an infinite ability of activated carbon to perform well. And the blanket does not smell.

CO: Now, why? Why a blanket, though? I mean, why not underwear or pajamas?

FRANK BIBBO: Well, everybody always asks that. And I think the fun factor is a big part of that. You know, this is something that couples can really have kind of fun with. I mean, you don't always wear pajamas to bed, you know, or underwear to bed. A lot of times you don't want them in bed. You know, there's the romance factor. And, you know, with all the things that affect relationships, you know, being married with children, suppose all the stars line up and you have one night every month where you can be romantic with your spouse. And God forbid one of you has gas that night, you know? So this is the most effective remedy and preventative for that kind of situation.

CO: Well, I wish you success with your Better Marriage Blanket Mr. Bibbo, and thanks for speaking with us.

FRANK BIBBO: Oh, thank you very much for your interest. And it's been a pleasure to talk to you.

CO: Bye bye.

FRANK BIBBO: Take care.

CH: From our archives, Carol, speaking with the inventor of the Better Marriage Blanket, Frank Bibbo in 2010. And you can find all of this week's archival stories on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Hubble Space Telescope

CH: Happy birthday to us. The Hubble Space Telescope turns 30 today. So it seems kind of unfair that its team is celebrating by giving us a gift, a new image from orbit. The photo shows a pair of colorful, nebulous located 163 thousand light years away. They are resplendent and mystifying and they make the viewer feel very, very small. They're also a bonus, really, considering the Hubble was never supposed to make it to 30. But fortunately for us, the telescope is still going strong. Though it has had its fair share of space bumps along the way, including 15 years ago when a Canadian company was enlisted to help. Repairs had to happen quickly. And MacDonald Detweiler's space missions division had just the robot for the job. General manager Paul Cooper spoke with Mary Lou Finlay in 2005.

PAUL COOPER: The thing with the Hubble was it needed to be fixed in a hurry because its batteries are running down, so they were looking around the US and around the world for something that could solve the problem very quickly. And they found that we had built a robot for the space station that would do the job. So we are the ones with the technology that could do the trick that was ready at the time.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Okay. Well, how do you get it to the telescope?

PAUL COOPER: So there's going to be a whole rocket launch with actually a two part spacecraft. And there's actually three robots: a big long arm and two shorter arms, about eleven feet long that are more or less like hands. They can use tools. And the robots will be folded up alongside the spaceship and within it. So then the spacecraft has to approach the Hubble and find it without a driver and without an astronaut onboard. And then it's big arm unfolds and grabs onto it.

MARY LOU FINLAY: You said this had to be done quickly. How quickly do you think it can be done?

PAUL COOPER: It's interesting. By ground standards, it's a while. Probably late 2007, early 2008. But by space missions standards, that's like overnight. There was no time to do an R&D project. No time to sort of start from scratch with the engineers at the drawing board. So that's why they turned to the solution that we had already built.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Are you actually somebody sitting at a console maneuvering this when you get it up there?

PAUL COOPER: Yeah, pretty much. There's actually two joysticks, one for each hand. Some parts of it the software and the computers that control the robots will do some parts of it. Like the sense of touch, for example, and it has a memory of where it was. So once it pulls out one of the instruments, it knows exactly how to put it back in because it just did that operation. But the astronauts mainly use two joysticks, almost like a videogame.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Is there any use for duct tape up there at all?

PAUL COOPER: I'm trying to picture the robot actually strapping duct tape onto the Hubble. I don't know.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Well, a lot of scientists will be thrilled if you can get it working for a longer time.

PAUL COOPER: I think not only just scientists. One of the interesting things that NASA found out that there's a lot of public interest in keeping the Hubble alive. I think people like the fact that it's giving answers to big questions like, you know, where is the edge of the universe and where did we all come from?

CH: From January 2005. That's Mary Lou Finlay speaking with Paul Cooper. At the time, Mr. Cooper's company helped rescue the Hubble Space Telescope from peril. And thanks to that intervention and others, the telescope celebrates its 30th birthday today.

[Music]

Part 3: Florida drive-in movie theatre owner says 'the show must go on'

Dementia assisted death

Guest: Theo Boer

CH: The Netherlands is entering uncharted territory when it comes to medical assistance in dying. And some say it's going too far. This week, the Dutch Supreme Court ruled that patients can be given a medically assisted death, or euthanasia -- as it's still called in that country, even if they have severe dementia. The ruling stems from a case in which a woman with dementia had to be sedated and held down as the assisted death was performed. Theo Boer is a professor of medical ethics at the Protestant Theological University who served for 10 years on an Netherlands Review Committee on euthanasia. He opposes the expansion of assisted dying. We've reached him in Groningen, the Netherlands.

CO: Mr. Boer how does this ruling change what doctors in the Netherlands are allowed to do?

THEO BOER: Well, from this verdict on, it is possible for doctors to provide assisted dying to patients in an advanced stage of dementia on the basis of their written advanced directive. And this is even possible in the situation where the patient is no longer competent and in the situation where his presence or her presence signals are mixed. So the signals of the patient may be positive or negative and the physician can still provide euthanasia.

CO: So if someone has said that, but now they're in a state where they cannot give the final consent, they cannot say for sure, "Yes. This is what I want." Is that what the issue was that went to court?

TB: That is exactly what the issue is, which means that on behalf of the patients and on the basis of their advance directive, it's now their physician and the relatives who should make the assessment whether the patient's suffering is unbearable and without prospect of improvement. So that gives enormous responsibility on the shoulders of the physician and the relatives.

CO: Can you just tell us briefly about the case that was in court that brought this decision?

TB: Yes. Well, the case it's referred to in my country as the so-called coffee euthanasia. It's about a female patient of a 74 years old who had issued an advanced directive that if she would have to be taken into a nursing home for her dementia, that she then would want to have assisted dying. Now, she had reached that stage and she was taken into a nursing home. And the relatives contacted the physician and said, this is not what our mother wanted. So they prepared the procedure. Apathy signals of the patient were mixed, but still they proceeded on the basis of the advance directive. And then at the end, at the moment of the euthanasia, they suspected that the lady would provide resistance. So as they put a sedative in her coffee, something meant to calm her down. But when the physician tried to kill the patient, she woke up and started resisting rather vehemently. And then they had to contain the patient together with the reality of swear, whereas the doctor proceeded with euthanasia. So the big question is, what did her resistance at that moment mean? Did it mean that she didn't want to be killed?

CO: How did people in the Netherlands respond to that? That must've been a very very disturbing case when it came to light.

TB: The responses were very very mixed really because there is a number of people who say that they never, just like this woman, they never want to come into a situation where they are in advanced dementia. So what they really say is, if I am in that position, you should force me to. Then there is one other group of people, and especially many doctors, who say that if a patient is no longer able to know what is going on, if a patient no longer understands the whole idea of assisted dying, then you should not proceed.

CO: So basically, the Dutch courts have now approved euthanasia, as you call it there, in cases of advanced dementia. And the doctors cannot be prosecuted even if the patient no longer says they want to die. How do you personally feel about that?

TB: You know, normally I think and ideally a court's verdict would provide some clarity for physicians. And I think this verdict has exactly the opposite effect. By definition, this case of medical aid in dying, will have to be initiated by the relatives. It is not the physician who says, I will go do this. It's the relatives who initiate it. And despite all their good intentions, it cannot be excluded. There may be some self-interest, there may be some framing, that the values and the perceptions of the relatives override or overrule the values and the experiences of the patients. I think personally, I wish the court would have said a firm "no."

CO: What you've described is exactly what is of concern here in Canada about the laws that they fear that eventually that there's a slippery slope involved and that ultimately or eventually it might be that the families decide and not the person involved, especially in these cases where they can no longer really give their final consent. And do you feel that this is something now that Dutch law has now evolved in this direction?

TB: Well, the Dutch law from the very beginning had a clause that said it is possibl to euthanasia patients on the basis of their informed consent. So that was from the beginning. However, and I was a member of a Dutch euthanasia review committee, I personally reviewed 4000 cases for the government. We have for years said that this clause is not to be effectuated because it's too risky. So what has changed is not the law itself. What has changed is the interpretation of the law. And I think really this verdict has a lot of dangers because it's the relatives who have their perception instead of the patients.

CO: Do you still support assisted death in Holland?

TB: I've always said that I'm an euthanasia skeptic, which means that I can accept euthanasia as a last resort as I can accept any killing, for example, also in the war. However, what I think the Dutch experience shows is that we have had 30 years of tolerated and deregulated euthanasia. What you can see is that it goes on widening. And in Canada in fact, in the verdict on September 11 in the Truchon and Gladu case in Quebec, you see that there is in Canada a similar process of liberalisation. And I think we should be aware that it's better to be safe than sorry.

CO: We will leave it there Professor. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TB: Thank you.

CH: Theo Boer is a professor of medical ethics at the Protestant Theological University. We reached him in Groningen, the Netherlands.

[Music]

Florida drive-in

Guest: John Watzke

CH: Sitting on your couch in pajamas you've been wearing for a week trying to synchronize your Netflix stream with a friend somehow lacks the magic of going to the movies. But with theaters closed, most moviegoers are out of luck, unless they live in Ocala, Florida. While sit-down movie theaters are closed across the continent. A handful of Drive-In theaters are still open. And as far as we can tell, only one is still showing new releases. John Watzke is the owner of the Ocala Drive-In Movie Theater. We reached him in Ocala, Florida.

CO: John, what movie is showing tonight at the Ocala Drive-In movie theater?

JOHN WATZKE: Okay. Tonight we have "Trolls." And the second feature is "Back to the Future" -- the original, we bought the classic back for that. And then on my second screen, we have "Resistance" and the "True History of the Kelly Gang." Both of those are new features put out by IFC Films.

CO: Wow. So you're the only one? Are there other movie theaters that are actually showing new releases?

JW: Not to my knowledge. There's only eleven drive-ins to my knowledge that are open in the country. And in talking to the film reps, most major film companies have delayed the release of their movies. So we have to reach out to these smaller, more independent film companies. And from what I understanding, none of them are showing new releases right now.

CO: So I understand that not only did you have the top grossing film of last weekend in the United States, you had the entire revenue. [Chuckles]

JW: [Chuckles] Yes. You can only be on top if you're the only one.

CO: How much revenue did you bring in?

JW: Well, actually, that was for the movie Swallow, and that was right at $2000. But that was just for the weekend on that one movie. That was the only one that I could report to the industry, because the rest, you know, were a little bit old and they weren't even taken.

CO: So the box office for that film for the week was about $2000.

JW: Yeah. Right.

CO: What's the setup you got? Because it's not business as usual, is it, at your drive-in -- so if I drove in, what would it look like?

JW: It looks pretty much the same. But it looks like we're under construction because every other parking space is fenced off with that orange construction fence line. And that's in order to assure a social distance between everybody. If you're parked in one of my parking spaces, you have 10 to 12 feet on either side of you before the next vehicle. On the east side of my concession, I cut a service window for people to walk up, if they want to walk to the concession place, they all are there. And there's a 72 foot fenced-in walkway going to a little, small light every six feet. And that keeps their social distance there. Then we've put together a website where they can go online and they can order their food and we will deliver the product directly to their vehicle.

CO: How do you protect your employees then if they're delivering to the cars?

JW: All of my employees wear a mask and they wear gloves. They're instructed to walk to the vehicle, hold the tray out a full arm's length away from them and ask the customers to please reach out the window and take their product. And that way, my employees are not touching -- the ones that are going outside -- are not touching even the package where they could be any kind of cross-contamination there. And the guest has taken it from them that that employee then comes back to the concession. They change their gloves. Put another pair of disposable gloves on and they go back out with the next tray.

CO: Wow.

JW: So all of my employees have their temperature taken when they arrive at work. And we log it down. And every three hours we go around and we take every employee's temperature from there on.

CO: I have to ask you, John, I mean, why do you bother? You're losing half your revenue because every second spot is blocked out.

JW: I'm losing half of my revenue there. And I'm also, you know, absorbing a lot of expense.

CO: Why do you bother?

JW: Why do I bother? This is a part of my life. My family has worked in theaters for over 100 years. The old cliche that "The show must go on" is not a cliche, it's a way of life. Regardless, the show goes on. And the other thing is I have been through natural disasters in my life. I'm 63 years old. I'm actually a victim of Hurricane Katrina on the Mississippi coast. And the things that brought one minute of feeling normal during that time span is the things you remember the most. Okay. Right now, you have people -- they're all basically locked in the house together. You got a mom and dad that both work usually they're home together. You got children that normally go to school or hanging out with their friends and so forth, they're all in that house. You've got everybody kind of getting on each other's nerves so if they can drive here and relax and enjoy a movie together and have some form of normal activity in their life. It takes a lot of stress off of the whole family.

CO: Is there anything that would make you close?

JW: It would take one of my employees getting sick or the government would have to say everybody closes.

CO: And that's not likely to happen because your governor is saying everybody should open, including the beaches.

JW: Well, I was opening before he said that. When they said essentials could stay open, unlike a normal concession stand in a normal theater, I have an excessively large menu. I carried the same license as any takeout restaurant or delivery restaurant.

CO: So you've decided that you're going to stay open. And you're getting lots of customers?

JW: Oh, yes. Yes. On Friday and Saturday nights, I'm at half capacity. But Friday or Saturday night, unfortunately, we're having to turn people away in order to keep that social distance. Weeknights, we're 70 to 80 percent, maybe more of the available parking spaces that I have here all filled. I am getting a wonderful feedback from the customers, you know, about the fact that they could get out of the house and have some normal life to them. You know, everybody is very appreciative of it because it does give them something normal to do.

CO: Well, John, I'll let you go. You've got lots of work to do there at the drive-in. Thanks for speaking with us.

JW: Thank you for calling.

CH: John Watzke is the owner of the Ocala Drive-in Movie Theater. He's in Ocala, Florida.

[Music]

Car accidents insurance

Guest: Don Forgeron

CH: The enormous drop in commuters means an enormous drop in the number of cars on the road across the country. And with so much less traffic, some law enforcement agencies are reporting fewer accidents as well. The Ontario Provincial Police say that there have been 953 collisions in and around the Greater Toronto Area in the last month, compared to over 2500 in the same period last year. So with fewer accidents and fewer drivers, a lot of people are calling for auto insurance companies to offer their customers some relief during this time. Don Forgeron is the president and CEO of the Insurance Bureau of Canada. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Forgeron we just heard some of the numbers on the busy roads around Toronto. Car accidents are down by over 60 percent from this time last year. What are you hearing from the rest of the country?

DON FORGERON: Well, we haven't seen any of that data. But intuitively, one would expect that collision frequency would be down fairly substantially, given the lack of vehicles on the road these days. So no surprise there.

CO: So what does that mean to those who sell auto insurance?

DF: Well, it's clearly when the premiums were set for policies that consumers currently have. They were set in a different time and place, certainly that has changed substantially. And so because of that, the industry has decided that adjustments need to be made to do more, better reflect the reduced risks that these policies now reflect.

CO: What kind of adjustments?

DF: What they have announced a couple of weeks ago is that for consumers whose driving habits have change substantially is that there ought to be premium reductions reflected as a result of that. And so insurers have taken variations on that theme. Customers are getting in touch with them and adjustments are being made to those policies.

CO: Okay. So people have to actually be proactive. The customers actually have to say, we are not driving the car's been sitting in the driveway since middle of March -- or do the insurance companies themselves initiate this?

DF: Well, the insurance companies, of course, would have no way of knowing what your circumstances are, whether or not they've changed or in what way they've changed. So, yes, it does require the customer to get in touch and let their insurance broker or their insurance company know what has changed. And then from there, they can go ahead and make those adjustments.

CO: And the adjustments would be what the insurers themselves would decide, what kind of discounts might be given to those customers?

DF: You know, auto insurance rates are heavily regulated in Canada. There are provincial rate regulators in each province who establish rates. And there are a lot of rules and guidelines around how these changes need to be made. So it's not just left to chance. These are heavily regulated. And so companies would have to offer reductions or rebates or changes in line with rules that would have been approved by regulators when the rates were originally filed.

CO: Some of those regulations are changing, aren't they? I mean, in Ontario, they have made it easier for insurance companies to give rebates because well, that was something you couldn't do before. Now they said, yes, you should do it. And the finance minister of the province is also saying that he believes that it's how the insurance companies should comply. Change the regulations. They should be passing on those rebates to customers. So they're going to do that?

DF: Absolutely. And we applied with the minister of finance in Ontario and other provinces have done their removing whatever regulatory barriers might have existed. But they're removing those barriers and they're allowing insurers to do the right thing, which is to return these premiums. And so the announcement that the minister made here in Ontario really reinforces the moves that insurers announced a couple of weeks ago to provide these rebates. And some companies have done it differently. Some have decided to simply write a cheque, a refund cheque to consumers. Others are providing deferred payments. Others are providing a credit against their policy. So in whatever shape it is. The important thing is that consumers benefit from this and that's our goal.

CO: But it's still up to the insurance companies themselves to make these decisions, to decide how much and in what way they might give a rebate or a discount. And they can also decide if you're out of luck, you're not going to get it, right?

DF: But if you qualify, Carol, for the further discounts so if you're driving habits have changed significantly, the rules around how an insurer has to apply that are approved by regulators. And so it really isn't their discretion. They have rules on the books that say if Carol calls in and she has parked her vehicle, there is a response. And only one response. So that there is not the discretion that you would think.

CO: The NDP in Ontario is asking for auto insurers in the province to cut all rates by 50 percent. Why not just do that?

DF: Well, I mean, I understand the sentiment behind that. But what I don't understand is the science behind that. Insurers rely on actuarial science, so do regulators to arrive at a premium for a consumer that's reflective of the risk and simply and presumably pull a number out of the air, 50 percent, just wouldn't fly with regulators. There's more science to it than that. So, I mean, I get the sentiment, but I think it's an overly simplistic approach to what is a complex issue.

CO: There has been previous pushes for these kinds of measures in other parts of the country. And up until last year, there was a cap on insurance rates in Alberta and also put into place by a previous NDP government there. Well, why is it so hard for auto insurers to implement these kinds of changes in other jurisdictions?

DF: So the auto insurance systems across the country are legislated by governments. They tell insurance companies the type of product to sell. They established the rules around how insurance companies underwrite those policies. They also established rates -- regulators approve rates the companies file. And so it's a heavily regulated segment of the economy. And most auto insurance systems across the country right now have lost that balance that we constantly say they need to maintain. And that's the balance between the premiums that we all want to pay and the benefits that we would be entitled to should we have an accident. And in many provinces, that balance has been lost and the benefits are far too high. And of course, as a result, premiums that are approved by provincial rate regulators are also too high. So we believe that right across the country there's opportunities to reform the auto insurance system to bring that balance more to where we believe most consumers would want it to be.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Forgeron thank you.

DF: Thank you Carol. I appreciate it.

CH: Don Forgeron is the CEO of the Insurance Bureau of Canada. He's in Toronto. And you can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

CH: And that is all the time we have for As It Happens for this Friday, April 24th.

CO: As It Happens was produced this week by Jeanne Armstrong, Tayo Bero, Justin Chandler, Katie Geleff, Sheena Goodyear, Chris Harbord...

CH: Sarah Jackson, John McGill, Morgan Passi, Kevin Robertson, Chloe Shantz-Hilkes, and Kate Swoger. Our technician this week is Annmarie Karugonjo. The show director this week is Reynold Gonsalves.

CO: The writer this week is Lisa Bryn Rundle. Austin Webb is our senior producer. And the executive producer of As It Happens is Robin Smyth.

CH: We'd also like to thank some other people who helped us out this week: Alex Cooke and Mary-Catherine MacIntosh in Halifax. Susan McKenzie in Montreal. Paul MacInnis in Ottawa. Rebecca Efrat, Adam Jacobson, Varad Mehta, Susan McReynolds, Eric Van, Luke Williams, Brandie Weikle, and Kate Zieman -- all in Toronto. Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg. Jennifer Keene in Calgary. And Anne Penman in Vancouver.

CO: As It Happens will be back again on Monday. I'm Carol Off. Good night.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden. Have a good weekend.

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April 24, 2020 Episode Transcript

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