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The AIH Transcript for April 15, 2020

Hosts: Piya Chattopadhyay and Chris Howden

Prologue

PC: Tragedy repeating. We check in with a woman whose father lives at the site of Canada's first coronavirus outbreak. She tells us how he's doing, and describes what it's been like to watch other care home outbreaks unfold.

CO: The spirit moved him and then he moved us. And the, he moved us. John Mann from the beloved band Spirit of the West died in November. We revisit a conversation with a band mate, friend and admirer.

PC: No sham. Wow! A child moved by a live symphony performance lets out a “wow” so genuine, the conductor tries to track him down to return the appreciation.

CH: And... they're the ones that I want. An encore presentation about that time a woman sold her pants for many, many thousands of dollars because she is Olivia Newton John. And she wore those pants in “Grease”.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that as a rule dislikes excessive panting.

Part one: Seniors minister, B.C. care home, N.L. premier

Seniors minister

Guest: Deb Schulte

CH: There is a tragedy unfolding in Canada's long-term care homes. People living in them account for almost half the COVID-19 fatalities in this country. Hundreds of seniors are dead. And many more are still vulnerable. It's a crisis that's been going on for many weeks. And now, Ontario and Quebec, where many of the deaths have occurred, are finally putting in stricter measures to try to control the rampant spread of the disease. And Justin Trudeau is promising help for Canada's pandemic-ravaged care homes, too. This morning, the prime minister was asked what he would do if his mother faced that risk.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I can't imagine what so many Canadians are going through right now with loved ones who are suffering, people they can't even visit right now. Seniors are worried about falling ill and not being able to see their kids and grandkids again. These are the things that we need to focus on as a country. That is what I will be speaking with premiers about tomorrow night, how the federal government can support the premiers in their responsibility and their jurisdiction over long term care facilities and senior care, to make sure that we are supporting the heroes who are working in extraordinarily difficult situations for very low pay to continue that work safely. And mostly to keep our elders safe. This is a situation where, as a society, as a country, we need to pull together to be there for our elders who built this country. That's what we're going to focus on in the coming days.

[/sc]

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau in Ottawa this morning. Deb Schulte is the federal minister of seniors. We reached her in Vaughan, Ontario.

PC: Minister Schulte what kind of support is the prime minister going to be offering to the premiers when they speak about care homes tomorrow?

DEB SCHULTE: Thank you very much for that question. And I just wanted to follow up on what has just been said by the prime minister, that it is deeply concerning and tragic the stories that we're hearing. So the first initiative that we had to try and help was to obviously provide these interim guidelines that we have posted as of last Saturday to help long term care facilities in provinces and territories who have the jurisdiction over these facilities to enact measures that will help keep the staff and the residents safe inside long-term care. We also have been working around the clock, as you are aware, to procure the important protective personal equipment that's required in those guidelines. So that's been an initiative, and we have had quite a bit of success in getting very large quantities. We’re spending, you know, two billion dollars to help make sure that we get the equipment that's needed to protect Canadians and certainly get these over to the long-term care facilities. They were focussed at first going into hospitals because we thought that was where the surge was going to be. But I understand provinces now are directing quite a bit of help, and this PPE that we are getting, over to long-term care to make sure that they can properly protect their residents.

PC: So let me let me hop in here.

DS: Yeah.

PC: Because the prime minister, as you heard him say there, is talking about the heroes who do the actual work in what are now dangerous care homes.

DS: Exactly.

PC: And some of those people, as we all know, are working at many care homes and might actually make more money by going and taking the CERB than what they earn by working.

DS: Right.

PC: So what kind of incentive do they need at this point to do the work?

DS: So my understanding is today what's been announced is that you can get the CERB if you're making under a thousand dollars. And so that's going to be a big help to those that are on the on the, you know, trying to decide between whether they continue to do the heroic work that they've been doing on the front lines, keeping people safe and looking after our loved ones, or staying home. I have to say, I'm incredibly inspired by the dedication and commitment of our heroes who are out there, making sure despite the low income that they're getting, they're there for our loved ones.

PC: Our colleague David Common reported this morning that the Ontario government only gave a so-called “resident quality inspection” to nine out of the hundreds of homes in that province. Is the prime minister only going to be talking about money, or is it time for Ottawa to take a leadership role in making our seniors who are in these homes get the care they need?

DS: There is no doubt that what has happened has shown some opportunities for improvement in the system. But it is a provincial and territorial jurisdiction. And it really is the best initiative. And the best way to move forward is not to be fighting over whose jurisdiction it is. It is to be working together. And that's exactly what we're doing. We're taking a Team Canada approach. It isn't about who in control. They're in control. And we are there to offer support. And as I've already said, we've been offering guidance. We've been offering personal protective equipment. We've been speeding up some of the opportunities for testing so that that can be also done well. And we've also been providing incentives, financial incentives to help as well.

PC: Let me ask you about those guidelines.

DS: Um-hmm.

PC: Because they've only come out in the last number of days. This pandemic has been coming for months and the response times have been put into question on many fronts. Why are those guidelines only coming out in the last number of days and now?

DS: So as you've probably heard Dr. Tam say, that this disease has been sneaky. It hasn't necessarily followed the way that some other pandemics have occurred. The way SARS came forward and spread. And the way H1N1 has come forward and spread. So there's no direct pandemic playbook. And as she said, you've seen one pandemic, you've only seen one pandemic. So we didn't have anything that talked about specifically how to deal with COVID-19. However, we did have the previous history to build on. So using that and looking at the experience that the different provinces have had. Seeing how this pandemic has evolved and spread in different countries and what they've been able to do helped inform the guidance that we've now brought forward.

PC: As you have mentioned, as we all know, these care homes are a provincial jurisdiction, but we are seeing all kinds of challenges in many of them, no matter what province they are in. What would you say to the listeners who are in those homes tonight, or who have mothers or fathers or in your case, mother-in-law and father-in-laws, or siblings who just want someone to stand up and take responsibility?

DS: Well, I would like to assure them that everybody is deeply seized and engaged on this. And making sure we have the measures, the equipment and the people in place to make sure that they are safe. And I just want to assure them that this is underway. There are many excellent long-term care facilities and assisted living facilities that are working, and have worked, to make sure that they've had protocols in place that have kept the residents safe.

PC: Before I let you go, I just want to come back to the guidelines. Because, as you said, every pandemic is different. But we did know from China and from the situation in Italy that senior homes were at risk. So why no guidelines sooner? Were you too late? Was the federal government too late?

DS:I think that, as you could see, different provinces and territories were having this pandemic hit them at different times. So as we saw things unfolding, it was clear that we needed some guidelines to bring consistency across the provinces. And that's exactly what we did.

PC Minister, thank you for your time today. We'll have to leave it there.

DS: Thank you so much. Appreciate your time, too.

CH: Deb Schulte is the federal minister of seniors. We reached her in Vaughan, Ontario. And there's more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

B.C. care home folo

Guest: Deanna Harlow

CH: The crisis in care homes nationwide comes as no surprise to Deanna Harlow. We first spoke to her five weeks ago. That's when a man living at the same nursing home as her father, the Lynn Valley Care Centre, died. It was Canada's first coronavirus fatality. Since then, her 96-year-old father, Graham Drue, has been infected with COVID-19. And Ms. Harlow wonders why authorities didn't act more quickly to protect him and countless other care home residents elsewhere in Canada. We reached Deanna Harlow at home in North Vancouver, B.C.

PC: Deanna, how is your dad doing? How's he holding up?

DEANNA HARLOW: He's not doing too badly. He contracted the virus, but wasn't experiencing really bad symptoms. He had a light cough in the morning for a couple of days. And he was very tired for a couple of days. So my sister and I were there, so we made sure that he was eating and hydrating. And by the third or fourth day, he was pretty much back to his old self.

PC: So has he fully recovered now?

DH: They have declared him recovered.

PC: You must be relieved?

DH: Yes, we were very relieved.

PC: When we spoke to you about a month ago, on March 11th, you and your sister were going into Lynn Valley and helping to feed the residents because there was not enough staff. What do you understand now about why the care home staff didn't come into work?

DH: Well, it’s a few factors. Some of them had been in contact with the patients who have contracted the virus, and so they had to go home and self-isolate for 14 days. A few of the other staff members had actually become ill and so they had to go home and recover. And then there was a handful of workers who just didn't want to come in because they were afraid.

PC: And what's happened at the centre since then?

DH: Well, it's been quite a ride. My sister and I continued going in there even after my father had contracted the virus. So there was a lot of back and forth of the local health authority, trying to get information as to what they were doing to get people to come in. They would manage to get some people to come in. But it was very inconsistent. And there were still problems with down in the kitchen, they still couldn't get enough people in the kitchen. There were issues with the laundry not being able to be done or brought back into the facility once it'd been taken out. And so it took about two-and-a-half weeks for them to finally cut the deal with the people who were there now.

PC: And have they been able to explain why it took so long to bring in more staff?

DH: Yes and no, we never really knew what the entire problem was initially, although it's all coming to light now. There just didn't seem to be a general. Somebody would say, you know, this is what we need to do. There was a lot of, I guess, bargaining to get people to come from other places. And how are they going to be paid? Because this group of people is paid more. And this group of people is paid less. So they have to figure out all those layers.

PC: And so now they have medical workers from hospitals in there. What difference do you think it would have made had those workers arrived sooner?

DH: It would've made all the difference in the world. I believe the residents would have been properly cared for. Absolutely.

PC: And during these past number of weeks, we've seen so many outbreaks at care homes across our country. Devastating situations and Bobcaygeon, Ontario, at the Heron Care Home in Montreal, many others as well. What has gone through your mind as you've watched this unfold?

DH: I don't know what to say? I can't find the words to describe, I mean, it's just off the charts horrific. It's so hard to see. Knowing what we went through ourselves and I just I feel terrible for the families of those individuals who passed away.

PC: I just spoke with the federal minister in charge, and she says the federal government has put out guidelines to the provinces that that personal protective equipment is getting out to the provinces now and and to long-term care facilities. And that the government is engaged deeply in helping people in long term care homes. Does that give you any reassurance?

DH: Yes. I'm heartened to hear that, you know, the message is getting out there that this is sort of the ground zero, not only here in North Vancouver at the Lynn Valley Care Centre. But it's happening across the country now that the same situation is playing out. Where the workers are afraid to come in. And people are being left in their beds, just slowly passing away. So I'm heartened to see them finally talking about what actually needs to be done. Unfortunately, for some, it's too little, too late.

PC: Do you think the federal government acted quickly enough?

DH: No, I don't. I can't believe that this was not, I mean, I know our country has a pandemic plan, but I can't believe that they didn't have the ability to react faster than they did.

PC: You haven't seen your dad for almost three weeks now. Yeah?

DH: Yes. Since March 26th.

PC: When do you expect you might see him again?

DH: I have no idea. At this point, they’re saying there's still no way that visitors can come in. And they don't seem to have a view to the future as to when that might be.

PC: That must be difficult for you and your family?

DH: It is very difficult.

PC: How is your dad handling not seeing any of his children?

DH: He seems to be OK. We get to talk to him occasionally. But with his dementia, he's in different places. So, you know, for him, he doesn't know so much about what's going on, but he does get restless. And he wants to get up and leave his room. But he's confined to his room. He's got no social contact with anyone but the care workers, who can't be there all the time. You know, it's lonely for him. It's very, very isolated. I mean, ordinarily, the residents would sit together and eat at every meal, and they would pass each other in the hallways and have conversations, games and activities, and none of that is going on now. So it's very, very isolating.

PC: Deanna, thank you for talking to us once again. I'm glad your dad has recovered from COVID-19. And I hope you can be reunited with him soon. Thank you.

DH: Yes, Okay. Thank you for talking to me.

PC: Bye-bye.

DH: Bye now.

CH: We reached Deanna Harlow in North Vancouver, B.C. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: World music]

N.L. premier

Guest: Dwight Ball

CH: Dwight Ball almost didn't make his payroll last month. That's Dwight Ball as in the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. The cost of fighting COVID-19 has hammered the province's finances. So has the collapse in demand for its oil and gas. Last month, the premier wrote the prime minister a letter. It ended, quote, our province has run out of time. We reached Premier Ball in St. John's.

PC: Premier Ball, how badly has COVID-19, hit the finances of your province?

DWIGHT BALL: Well, it's COVID-19. It's been 2020 really since the beginning of the year. I've said many times I think Newfoundland and Labrador, if they could take a mulligan on 2020, they would do it. We started with a huge snowstorm that hit the province and shut it down for nearly two weeks. And then we had to deal with this pandemic. And it's been every operational cost that we have has gone up. And every revenue generator that we've had in the province would just simply collapse. It was a difficult time for Newfoundland and Labrador.

PC: And so in a word or two, how would you describe the finances?

DB: They're in tough shape right now. You know, we were at a stage when we couldn't roll. We got some support from the Bank of Canada, which helped us. But it's been very tough. If I had to describe this scene in one word, it would be “tragic”.

PC: Today, the bank can announced that it is going to buy billions worth of provincial debt. How much room is that going to buy for Newfoundland and Labrador?

DB: You know, we can borrow. It means that we can continue to borrow. We've been able to do that. But the issue for us is not can we borrow or will we borrow. We will do that. The concern we have is once this is over, we will have a significant amount of debt on a per capita basis in a very small province. There's not another province in this confederation that would even remotely compare to where we are with the level of debt that we're carrying. And the impact there is on our debt servicing. And, you know, we're actually taking away services from people in our province, rights we deserve. And simply because we're paying debt servicing. And most people don't realize that Newfoundland and Labrador still does not receive equalization from the federal government. And most provinces in our situation, they receive billions of dollars; in many cases, the transfer payments that we are not receiving.

PC: You wrote to the prime minister asking for help. Is what you're talking about, what you asked him, or what specifically did you ask of the prime minister?

DB: Leading into that March the 20th letter, I knew we were into the pandemic. And I knew then, you know, the federal budget was something that would be in jeopardy, given what was happening around the world. We've been working with the federal government for quite some time leading into this period, when we were expecting a program like this fiscal stabilization fund that would be able to help in Newfoundland and Labrador, which also helps with Alberta and Saskatchewan as well. But when we became aware that the budget would not happen, this program without the available staff, it was very clear that we had very little room, you know, with our finances. And we were having a struggle. We were struggling with even borrowing. And then the Bank of Canada assistance. That's the reason why I wrote a letter was just to recognize and send an urgent message that, you know, this province is running out of time.

PC: So what do you say to people who say, look, Canada's oil-dependent provinces, Newfoundland and Labrador, being one of them, are facing a problem of their own making — that you should have taxed and saved more of that oil wealth when the going was good?

DB: Oh, for us, you know, we've been a province, with a low level of taxation, we are in the middle of pack. But we have a large geographical footprint. And we have a very sparse population. We have an aging demographic. We have lots of chronic diseases here that we see in other provinces, but not at the same prevalence that we would see in Newfoundland and Labrador. But we face other challenges. And we had, you know, a significant debt going into this. So we were not able to get out of that situation, simply because we didn't have the time to be able to do it like other provinces. So it wasn't about taxation. It wasn't really about services. Because it is more expensive to deliver services, you know, to Canadians that live in Newfoundland and Labrador. We’re part of this confederation, and we’re residents of Canada. So we expect and deserve the same level of service, the same types of services, that other provinces would get. So we just weren't getting the transfers when it comes to equalization or some other programs that the other provinces were getting.

PC: The prime minister said today that we as a country are weeks away from loosening of restrictions on economic activity. How long can Newfoundland and Labrador hold on?

DB:There's no question we need support from Ottawa. I think we recognize that. I think every province would know that. And so we're going to need something that’s very unique, very different, tailored towards the problems like us. And I'm not just saying this because it's just, you know, us right now. But this could easily be some other province in the near future if the equalization was removed from them. What we don't have is a big foundation underneath us that allows us to have the federal transfers that would be required to help us get to that deadline quickly. We have a lot of resources here, and we have the capacity within the system, a great workforce, lots of great natural resources to build an economy on. And I would suggest that we could have one of the best economies in this country, given the natural assets that we have to build on. But we're gonna need support from Ottawa. We just can't do it alone. We can do it, but we're going to need Ottawa. We're willing to do it. We got the courage to do it. But we're going to need a great federal partner to help us.

PC:And you know this that the prime minister is going to be calling you and your provincial counterparts tomorrow ,that he will be speaking with all of you. What are you hoping to hear from Justin Trudeau tomorrow?

DB: The one thing I will say is that the prime minister, Justin Trudeau, and I will say he's accessible. He understands the uniqueness of what we had to deal with. No different than the deputy prime minister. No different than the federal finance minister. Because I will actually carve out something for our province right now, given the unique situation that we're in. We’re part of the country. We’re a beautiful province. And all we're looking for is just a fair opportunity to work with other provinces to get ourselves back with a strong economy. We want to contribute, and we will contribute, to the Canadian fabric. And we have a lot of opportunities to do it. We just need a little boost. We need a little support right now to get us there.

PC: Well, Premier, we’ll wait and see tomorrow if you will get and hear what you would like to from the federal government. I appreciate you making time for us today. I know it's busy.

DB: Yep. Thank you, Piya.

PC: Take good care. Bye-bye.

DB: Bye.

CH: Dwight Ball is the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in St. John's.

[Music: Indie rock]

Goldfish

CH: Over the past month or so, we've been replaying stories from our vast archive of oddness, to take all our minds off the only thing our minds are on these days. And you've been helping jog our memories. We re-aired the story of a dog swallowing a keyless ignition fob, thanks to Laura Mooney from Washington, who thought maybe she'd dreamed it. And Mary Hurley from Toronto emailed with the following request. Please, could you replay, if you haven't already? The interview with an Englishwoman who had to give mouth to mouth resuscitation to her goldfish. I never tire of hearing this. It's hysterical. Thanks for writing, Mary. We'll have that whole interview tomorrow. But here's how it starts. From 1993, guest host Linden MacIntyre, speaking with Jesse Raynor.

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LINDEN MACINTYRE: What happened to your goldfish?

JESSE RAYNOR: Well, when I went to clean the bowl, I noticed that Grumpy; he's named Grumpy, the goldfish, was laying on his side at the bottom of the bowl. And I thought that straight away that he was dead and done for, as his gills was motionless. He was barely moving. He wasn't breathing. And I thought immediately that I wanted the goldfish to live because I have another goldfish. And if Grumpy had died, then probably the other goldfish would too. It agreed.

LM: And what did you do then, Jesse?

JR: On the spur of the moment, I simply thought of giving him the “Kiss of Life”. I took him out of the bowl, gently in the palm of my hand, and with his face in mine, I just blew gently into his mouth a couple of times. Then I gently used my fingers to get the heart motion going again.

[/sc]

CH: Just the top of Linden MacIntyre's interview with Jesse Raynor, who gave her goldfish mouth to mouth. And we'll hear the whole thing tomorrow. And you'll notice the As It Happens podcast is shorter tonight. We were pre-empted by a special CBC COVID-19 Town Hall. But the podcast will be back to its full length tomorrow night.

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April 15, 202 Episode Transcript

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