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The AIH Transcript for April 8, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Getting testy. Ontario has been lagging behind in COVID-19 testing. A doctor who works in long term care homes says public health still won't process many swabs, and that's making it harder to protect patients and staff.

CH: Picking sides. A Windsor, Ontario, nurse is forced to choose between working in her home town or fighting an outbreak across the border in Michigan. She tells us why she's decided to work in the US.

CO: The end of the line. Bernie Sanders suspends his campaign for the U.S. presidency. We speak with one of the Vermont senator's supporters about why it didn't work out again.

CH: His fans included Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Bruce Springsteen and just about everybody else, including us. We remember Grammy winning songwriter John Prine.

CO: It arrived from outside our solar system, then proceeded to put on a show. But because of coronavirus, few astronomers were looking through telescopes to watch the partial breakup of comet Borisov. We speak to one space watcher who was lucky enough to see it.

CH: And prune to exaggeration. From the archives, a man who did not take the challenge of setting a prune eating record sitting down, not even afterwards. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that's won local.

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Part 1: Ontario Care Home Testing

Ontario Care Home Testing

Guest: Barry Roth

CH: More people live in Ontario than in any other province. Yet Ontario is way down at the bottom of the heap when it comes to its testing rate for COVID-19. In the last few crucial days, the province has only been using about a quarter of its testing capacity. Today, Ontario Premier Doug Ford pledged to change that.

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DOUG FORD: What is so unacceptable -- absolutely unacceptable? Are the numbers of testing that we're doing. I may not understand health, but what people understand around this province and what I understand are numbers. And we also understand countries that have tested and ramped up testing have shown results. As I mentioned to our command table and to the CEO last night, now my patience have run thin and no more excuses, it's unacceptable. We have the capacity now. Before I understand, we didn't have the reagent. We didn't have all the testing. We have the testing capabilities. We have the assessment centres capabilities. We have the reagent. We say we can do 13000 a day. Then we need to start doing 13000 every single day.

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CH: Ontario Premier Doug Ford speaking to the media today. Dr. Barry Roth is among those whose requests for testing have been rejected. He manages the health of the elderly residents at three long term care homes in southwestern Ontario. We reached him in Tilsonburg.

CO: Dr. Roth, we just heard Premier Ford say the levels of testing are unacceptable. What do you make of his remarks?

BARRY ROTH: Well, I like Premier Ford and I'm encouraged to hear him say that. He said a similar thing where he indicated a desire to secure our long term care homes. And he had a personal concern about his mother in law being in one. So I'm encouraged. I just want to see now that it translates down to the public health level. And because, Carol, to be very honest with you, I can relay a topic from two hours ago where once again I'm getting rejected when I submit swabs that they don't consider necessary. When I hear the premier say this, I'm very encouraged. I'm just hoping that it's something that needs to move through the ranks.

CO: Okay. But a big shadow falls between the premier saying this has to happen and reality. So what is the story that you could tell us?

BR: So right now and I've been following the very health website that documents are tests per 1 million population -- as of today, we do 5600 tests per one million population. Nobody is less than us in Canada other than Nunavut. Alberta, there's 15 and a half thousand per million population. So something's got to change. What happened today is what's happened now, a total of five times in the last five days where we admit a new resident from the community or from the hospital to our long term care facility. We are demanding we swab them. We swab them, we isolate them for 14 days. We want to get that swab back, which usually takes 24 or 48 hours and know that this person is not COVID positive. That doesn't change the fact, we will keep them in isolation for 14 days. We need to protect our seniors. We need to know where this virus is. We need to test. We need to test. And then we need to test again.

CO: So this happened again today that you had the situation.

BR: Two hours ago. Two hours ago. I swabbed three people today in Woodstock. And two of them are new admits. And public health has refused to pick up the swab.

CO: On what grounds?

BR: On the grounds that it does not meet their criteria for swabbing.

CO: Why? What does it not meet?

BR: They want them symptomatic. They have a whole list of things that they want. But I mean, we can get away with it. If I lied and said this patient has a low grade temperature -- well, first of all, they wouldn't be admitted to my home if they were like that. So public health pretty well knows if they come into the home, they're symptom free. But we know. We know from the evidence out there that asymptomatic transmitters are a real thing and a real risk to us. I'm seeing it in the community, in my family practice. I'm seeing people that are asymptomatic, that were swabbing that are positive. So the last place I want to see is in the nursing home where we have 238 residents that are a sitting duck for a catastrophe that's happening around our province.

CO: And it's already a catastrophe that you're talking about. It's already in progress, isn't it? Because we have seen that the outbreaks have been in 51 of the long term care facilities in the province. We saw what happened in town, Bobcaygeon, where almost half of the residents in that nursing home have died. Another 24 staff members at this point have tested positive. So how are the facilities that you are working in -- how are they not considered to be the frontline in this fight?

BR: Oh, I know. And, you know, I just think it's important for people out there to hear that in the dedicated staff we have, we have a CAO of the county, Peter Crockett, our director of Woodingford, our leadership team, our RANs, RPNs, PSWs, cleaning staff, dietary, maintenance that are putting themselves at risk. And we can be doing more to protect everybody. We're asking a lot of them. They're in harm's way every day unknown where this virus is. Let me find where the virus is.

CO: If, though, they say the people you're receiving -- and we should point out a number of these people are coming from hospitals where they need the beds for the COVID-19 fight. And so you're getting new residents. They say they don't have symptoms. You're going to isolate them for 14 days. So can they not make that case? Could they not say that?

BR: Sure they can. Yes, they can. But if I can just say -- so you look at what people come into our facility. There's the asymptomatic person that if you did nothing in three days, they're going to become symptomatic because they have COVID. So we can wait till they get COVID. If we know in advance they have COVID, it's going to change where we put this patient, who we expose to this patient. So that's one. We could get the asymptomatic patient that can't tell you they actually have symptoms -- they have dementia, they have other illnesses that they can't tell you they've got a sore throat. They can't tell you they've got muscle aches, joint aches. And so if we don't swab those people, we don't pick them up. So I just think that I see no evidence that testing is harmful. Doug Ford said we have the capacity to do 13000 tests a day. We're doing 3000. That makes no sense to me.

CO: How much longer do you think you can keep the virus out of the homes that you're working in?

BR: Good question. I have a staff member as I walked in that said to me, please protect us. I don't know how long we keep them on. I don't know how long we can keep this virus out.

CO: Dr. Roth, you sound exhausted.

BR: Well, it's definitely tiring for sure. Every day we shouldn't be fighting. And I think people in public health are good. I think the ministry is good. I just think the evidence is out there worldwide. You watch the TV, I watch TV, read the news. I know you've got to give me the tools to find out where this virus is.

CO: Dr. Roth, we will leave it there. Please take care. And I hope that you are able to keep your homes free of the virus.

BR: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Barry Roth is the medical director for the Woodingford Lodge long term care homes. He's in Tilsonburg, Ontario.

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Bernie Sanders Suspends Campaign

Guest: Bhavik Lathia

CH: Bernie Sanders' second run for the White House is over. With a little hope of winning, the 78 year old Vermont senator has announced that he's suspending his campaign to become the next president of the United States. He spoke during a livestream from his house earlier today.

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BERNIE SANDERS: I wish I could give you better news. But I think you know the truth. And that is that we are now some 300 delegates behind Vice President Biden, and the path toward victory is virtually impossible. So while we are winning the ideological battle and while we are winning the support of so many young people and working people throughout the country, I have concluded that this battle for the Democratic nomination will not be successful. And so today I am announcing the suspension of my campaign.

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CH: Bhavik Lathia is a Bernie Sanders supporter who used to work on the senator's campaign. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

CO: Bhavik what emotions were you feeling earlier today when you watched Bernie Sanders make that announcement?

BHAVIK LATHAI: Honestly, I was really really sad. My heart kind of just broke a little bit.

CO: But you must have seen it coming.

BL: Yes. I mean, this is tough, right? I, on the one hand, saw Biden picking up a delegate lead, and that was hard. But, you know, Bernie, I think he used the words "virtually impossible." And I think that might be accurate. I would say incredibly narrow. There was still a path, even if it would be incredibly difficult and a lot would have to change for him to become the nominee. And, you know, just speaking for myself and not for anybody else and certainly not for anybody on the campaign, I wanted get to see him go all the way to the convention and pick up delegates and, you know, show a really strong showing at the Democratic National Convention, which honestly does matter because it impacts the party platform.

CO: But what he said a while ago, when he realized he was sliding away from Biden was that he was going to keep that conversation going. He was going to keep those policies exposed. And he was going to push Joe Biden further to the left, further to progressive policies that he was outlining, and that was why he was staying in. Do you think he achieved that?

BL: Yeah. I mean, I was really happy to hear him say that he's going to keep his name on the ballot for all 27 upcoming contests. I mean, people like myself -- like I actually haven't gotten the chance to vote for Bernie yet. And I was looking forward to doing that in the D.C. primary. And I will be able to. And I'm hoping and I encourage all the Bernie supporters out there to continue just, you know, keep an eye out for your primary. I know we're in a tough situation right now with coronavirus, but if you live in a state with no excuse absentee ballot voting, make sure to order your ballot and get in the mail and vote for Bernie Sanders so he goes to the convention with as many delegates as possible because that's going to impact the type of voice he's able to have at the convention.

CO: Right. At the beginning he was surging. He looked poised to actually take the nomination. Why do you think Joe Biden overtook him at such a pace?

BL: Yeah. I think something really unprecedented happened that I don't think has ever happened before in the history of the Democratic primary process, whereby essentially, you know, almost every major candidate who was in the race dropped out and endorsed Bernie's opponent, Joe Biden, in a very short amount of time, including Pete Buttigieg. I can't remember, at least in my lifetime, seeing such a coalescing. And I just think that, you know, that obviously that made a difference. A lot of people have spent the last couple of weeks and today kind of talking about, you know, what the Bernie campaign did wrong to, you know, not cinch it. But honestly, the campaign did a lot right. If it weren't for that unprecedented move by lots of those candidates in the race, I don't know what would have happened.

CO: The thing Bernie Sanders was offering was something that could be incorporated into Joe Biden's campaign -- but it was too much to the left. That's what they were saying, that what Mr. Sanders was offering was too radical to actually have a victory against Donald Trump.

BL: Yeah, I just don't buy that. We've seen, you know, there's a poll that came out last week that showed Medicare for all has an all time high favourability in America. And this is across Democrats, Independents, and Republicans. I think something like 35 percent of Republicans are enthusiastic about Medicare for all now. So, yeah, I just don't buy any of that thinking.

CO: Do you think that Senator Sanders' ideas are going to play even more prominently, given that this is all happening in the midst of this health crisis where so many Americans don't have insurance?

BL: Yeah. And just speaking as a campaign staffer, you know, there's so many folks from the Bernie Campaign who are going to lose their health insurance. And it's not just us. There are millions and millions of Americans who've lost their jobs in the past couple of weeks that are no longer going to have health insurance. And so if they need to get health care in the coming weeks, months, God forbid if they contract coronavirus, they are in a position where they may have to pay out of pocket. And author Naomi Klein, who incidentally happens to be Canadian, she said something like reality has endorsed Bernie Sanders. And I think that's true. Reality continues to endorse Bernie Sanders.

CO: In the last election, lots of Bernie supporting Democrats didn't go out to vote for Hillary Clinton. They said it was Bernie or nobody. And Donald Trump benefited from that. Do you think that's going to happen again? Do you think a lot of people like yourself won't vote for Joe Biden?

BL: Well, look, again, just speaking for myself, this is tough. And I've been thinking a lot about this in the last couple of weeks, especially not knowing what's going to happen. And, you know, I will be supporting Joe Biden and voting for him. And for me, it really comes down to a matter of surviving in America. Donald Trump has done everything to vilify and harm immigrants. I wasn't born in the United States. I was born in India. And I immigrated to the United States at the age of six. And so I'm a naturalized citizen in this country. And I think that the end game of the Trump Republican Party is to do away with things like naturalized citizenship. And that's a very very very scary prospect. So, you know, I'm not inspired by Joe Biden's platform, and I hope it evolves and I hope it changes. But just speaking personally and for my family's future and my future, Trump cannot earn another four years. And for me, that's the bottom line.

CO: Bhavik we'll be watching. And I appreciate that you'd come on the show. Thank you.

BL: Of course. Take care. Thank you so much for having me on.

CH: Bhavik Lathia was the deputy distributed organizing director for the Bernie Sanders campaign. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Prunes Eating Champion

CH: Now would be a great time to start training to set a world record for eating the most of something. More time to train. Fewer people to witness your harrowing failures. The problem is most of us don't have a record amount of anything in our cupboards. And it's hard to get too excited about eating a lot of canned pumpkin or multiple boxes of pancake mix. But in 1993, when Michael McCasland decided to set a record for eating the world was his oyster. Or rather, for some reason, his prune. In today's story from the As It Happens archives, Mr. McCasland explains to Michael Enright why he decided to mark an important milestone in his life by eating the most prunes. You might find that hard to digest, but weirdly, he didn't. From our archives, here's Michael Enright's conversation with prune eating world record holder Michael McCasland from January of 1993, as introduced by Alan Maitland.

ALAN MAITLAND: Are you a snacker? You know, you pick up a peanut or a potato chip and you can't stop? Well, Michael McCasland is sort of like that with prunes. And when he gets to spooning prunes, he sets world records. Last Tuesday, for example, he ate 260 prunes in 45 minutes. And that makes him the world's all time prune eating champion. He's in West Covina, California.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Mr. McCasland, first of all, congratulations.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Thank you very much.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: That's quite a record. No one else in the world has it.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: I don't think anyone else wants to attempt it. [Laughter]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I don't think anyone else can even think of it. How are you feeling?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Actually, I'm feeling like just a regular guy today. When the event happened on Tuesday, I went through about six to eight hours of...I was extremely tired. And it was a little painful. The next day I got up very early in the morning and I felt great. No problem.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Did you get up very early in the morning because you had to get up very early in the morning?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: No, no, no, no, no. I slept through the night, everything worked out perfect.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I don't want to probe here much more than we have to. Why did you take this on? Why did you decide you wanted to break this particular record?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Okay. First of all, last Tuesday happened to be my 40th birthday. And I just had it back in November that I want to do something a little different on my 40th birthday. And bottom line is, I'm just kind of doing it for all the regular people out there in Canada and the United States.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I assume that you didn't just go into the bar and say that you were going to eat 260 prunes. It must have been some setup for all of this. It must have been some events leading up to the actual eating of the prunes.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Right. This was an event held at the Safari Club and Grill in West Covina, which holds approximately -- well it holds a lot of people. But what happened was we had the marching of the prunes.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: The what? [Laughs]

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: The marching of the prune.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: How was that accomplished?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Well, that was accomplished -- we had the two prunettes carry in the official prunes that I was going to consume to the music of the 84 Olympic themed fanfare.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Fabulous. The Los Angeles Games.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Yes.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Fabulous fanfare.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Yes. And it was choreographed out. And it brought tears to the eyes of people in the audience.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: I can imagine that. What did you do with the pits?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Well, the pits actually were used. That's your evidence that you did eat the prune, for one thing.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: 260 prunes, 260 pits I guess.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Right. That's number one. Number two is, we came up with the idea to take donations, $5 for each prune pit. I'm going to have to dry them out and I have to autograph them. But $5 for each prune pit that goes which goes to the American Red Cross.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Now, you sat at a table with the prunes pile in front of you. Is that the...

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Yes. In large trays.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And you just go right at it?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: You go right at it. Within 45 minutes, they were water soaked, which meant they were very plump, very filling. We'd figured it out. We didn't weigh him ahead of time, but we'd figured it out that it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 to 12 pounds of prunes.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: God, that's enough. A lot of prunes Mr. McCasland. Did you have any medical advice here? Was there a training right beside you?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: I had paramedics there. Actually, what happened at about 200 prunes, I hit what a marathoner would call "the wall." And I was having a little bit of difficulty, you know, getting up there to those magic numbers. I trained very hard for this event. And in fact, I saw a doctor back in November and looked at me and he said, hey, Mike, you're just a regular guy, go for it. [Chuckles]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Right. So you didn't flag or fail. You got past the wall. And yu when you won, what was the feeling? You must have had a tremendous...you must have had a full feeling I guess in a way.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: It was close. It got right down to the end. There was a lot of dramatics at the end because we actually had a scoreboard with the minutes ticking off starting at 45 minutes. And I had a scorekeeper keeping count of each one I ate. Well, what happened was I think there was like somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 or 30 seconds left. And I looked up and all the trays, all the prunes were now off the trays which we had counted them -- we had counted them two or three times to make sure there was 256 on the trays. Well I counted all of them and made sure. And what happened was when I got right down to it, the count that scorekeeper only had 248 prunes and I had like 20 or 25 seconds so I ate a few more prunes. And I was at the end of my rope. And so I still didn't achieve breaking the record. But what we did is I knew something was wrong. So we went ahead, counted the pits right there in front of the cameras and the world. And it turned out to be 260, which I ate four more than the record which really could put me over the end. [Laughs]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Certainly -- indeed it could. Any after effects after this incredible feat of yours.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: No. As I said I was extremely tired. Extremely worn out. The training is what did it for me. I did my training extremely seriously.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: But your metabolism was able to absorb the prunes and take care of itself. No ill effects?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: No ill effects.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: What are you planning to do for your 50th birthday -- he asked in a tremulous voice?

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: What I'd like to do is jump out of a 747 at about 32,000 feet, with about a five mile bungee cord on it. That sounds kind of exciting.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: It certainly does.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: We've got to figure out a way to get back to the plane. [Laughter]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Well, when you work out the details, please give us a call. We'd love to hear from you.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Okay.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Again, congratulations and happy birthday.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: And thank you very much. And Canada and United States have a regular day.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Absolute. Bye now.

MICHAEL MCCASLAND: Thank you. Bye bye.

ALAN MAITLAND: Michael McCasland is the world's prune eating champion, an all round regular guy. He spoke from West Covina, California.

CH: From our archives, Alan Maitland and before him, Michael Enright talking to Michael McCasland on As It Happens on January 29th, 1993, about setting the world record for eating prunes to celebrate his 40th birthday, because you really want to add a level of difficulty to that event.

[Music]

Part 2: Forced to pick a side, this Canadian nurse decided to fight COVID-19 in the U.S.

Windsor Healthcare Workers

Guest: Nikki Hillis-Walters

CH: Nikki Hillis-Walters is a nurse. Normally, she has two jobs. One at home in Windsor, Ontario, and the other at a hospital just outside Detroit. But now she and dozens of other health care workers from Windsor have been forced to choose a side of the border to work on. That's because hospitals in Ontario are worried about them carrying the COVID-19 virus over the border from Michigan, where the number of cases is about the same as the total in all of Canada. Ms. Hillis-Walters chose to work at Beaumont Hospital in Grosse Pointe, Michigan. We reached her in nearby Waterford.

CO: Nikki, of your two jobs, you chose the more stressful and possibly riskier one in Michigan. Why is that?

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: I believe that...I don't know if it's like a nursey feeling that you kind of need to go to that call to action type choice. It did feel a little bit like the need was there for me to go or stay. And I don't want to, you know, let them down by being even shorter than everyone already is. So I was feeling good and I'm feeling good. And my job in Canada was easily covered by one of the other staff members. So that was why I chose it.

CO: It was the nursey thing to do, you said.

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: Yeah. [Chuckles]

CO: Are they pretty grateful to you and I guess other Canadians who decided that they're going to stick with those hospitals in Michigan? We've spoken with people there who say that they desperately need help like yours.

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: The community support has been just so heartwarming. I was tearing up on my way into work my last shift, because the local police and a couple other local neighbours got in their cars and kind of did a parade around the hospital just cheering and, you know, saying thank you so much. And, you know, they're always sending food and cards and things like that to us. Even people who have had family members that have passed away have sent us thank you letters saying that they appreciated that we were with our loved ones when they couldn't be. And it's really been heartwarming experience for me anyways.

CO: But you have family. You have family in Windsor. You have a daughter there. How are they coping with you crossing the border or living now across the border?

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: So my daughter is able to come with me. She goes back and forth. Her dad lives in Windsor. So when she's with her dad, I'm able to bring her across to visit her dad. And then she spends most of her time with me. And the border has allowed her to come across because she's young enough. And, you know, everyone's under quarantine and there's no daycares and things like that. So she's been able to come across with me. And it's been different for sure, because I actually don't usually spend a lot of time. I'm at my husband's house here. I usually don't spend a lot of time here. I usually spend most of my time in Windsor. So it's been kind of a big adjustment for all of us. But I think that's part of what's necessary now is just like the ability to go with the flow and really accept that things are kind of uncertain right now and just really kind of allowing that to be okay.

CO: There was a pretty tense moment last week, wasn't there, when President Trump threatened to stop shipments of facemasks to Canada and Prime Minister Trudeau said, well, look, we have a lot of health care workers crossing the border, maybe that won't happen anymore. Somewhat kind of a tit-for-tat. How did you feel about being, I guess, caught up in that sort of exchange of threats?

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: At the risk of sounding disrespectful to sort of sandbox threats that kind of happen. I mean, I don't like the idea of that. I don't think that we need to have the emotional sort of, like you said, tit-for-tat. Two wrongs don't make a right. We really need as many people as we can kind of containing and caring for people right now. And, you know, I don't think it's right to prevent anyone from having masks if there is a possibility to access them. And I don't think it's right to threaten as a retaliation the closing of the border or the loss of the health care workers. To be honest, we wouldn't be useful right now to Canada anyways because we would just be quarantined over here. So preventing us from being able to work with people that are sick and even make a difference in one family's life would be a shame I think.

CO: Nikki when all of this is over, what do you want to be able to say about the choices you made?

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: Well, for me personally, I really want this story for me to be a positive one. You know, I've seen the community on both sides really rallying around each other and supporting each other. I've seen people who are, you know, very fearful since losing their jobs and things like that, step up and support each other and offer each other what, you know, food they have or things like that. And I think it should be a story of kind of people coming together and a community building thing as opposed to more separation and judgments and blame. And I mean, I can't ever go back and make a different decision. Like I have chosen to work with the COVID patients over here. And I hope that my decision makes a difference for everybody. You know that if I'm able to help a few people get better and prevent some more people from getting sick, then hopefully that will, at least in a small way, make an impact.

CO: Nikki thank you. Thank you for doing the nursey thing.

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: [Laughs] I guess it's not very specific.

CO: [Chuckles] Absolutely, it's very specific. I absolutely understand what you're saying. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: Thank you.

CO: Please take care.

NIKKI HILLIS-WALTERS: You too.

CH: Nikki Hillis-Walters is a nurse from Windsor, Ontario. We reached her in Waterford, Michigan. And you can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih. As Ms. Hillis-Walters mentioned, health care workers who cross the border between Windsor and Detroit are grateful for the support they've received. One of those frontline workers recently put up a Facebook post with a few words of thanks. Here's how he introduced himself.

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JEFFREY ROWE: Hey, my name's Jeff. I'm a respiratory therapist at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. I live in Windsor. And I've never done this before. I've never posted anything before. I'm not a Facebook person. But tonight, coming back in Windsor, Canada Customs had a couple of their cars with flashing lights on the other side of the booths that you have to go past, get interviewed to come back into the country. And as I was driving up, I'm thinking, what is going on? I got to the booth. There was a customs officer there that I knew just from seeing them. He's a big hamburger fan. And we talk about hamburgers, best ones in the city. I didn't ask him what was going on but to let me go. There's about 20 customs officers standing shoulder to shoulder with signs welcoming back the Canadian health care workers that work in the States. And they're shouting and cheering at us. And it went right to my heart and I started crying. And I just want to say to Canada Customs, thank you. That was the biggest pat on our backs that we could ever get. We actually lost one of ours this week. This virus is hitting it hard and it's hitting fast. And it took one of our nurses. So it was really cool to get that pat on the back from Canada Customs and border guards at the Windsor crossing between Windsor and Detroit. Thank you brothers and sisters. Thank you so much. We needed that. Have a great time. Be safe. Keep on keeping on. Thank you.

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CH: That was from a Facebook post put up by Jeffrey Rowe, a respiratory therapist who lives in Windsor, Ontario, and works in Detroit, Michigan.

[Music]

What Day Is It?

CH: As we continue to be cooped up at home, away from work and the other stuff that keeps us on a schedule, it's disturbingly easy to forget some pretty simple things. So one Cleveland news station is helping its viewers keep track of what's important or what used to be considered important anyway. Here's the news team at Fox 8 News in Cleveland with a special daily report.

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VOICE 1: Welcome back. Time now for the most important question of the morning.

VOICE 2: What day is it with Todd Meany?

[Upbeat Music]

VOICE 3: Wednesday.

[Upbeat Music]

VOICE 2: This has been "What day is it with Todd Meany?" for the eighth day of April, 2020.

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CH: Fox 8 News team in Cleveland, Ohio, reminding us what day it is.

[Music]

Comet Excitement

Guest: David Jewitt

CH: It came from outer space. Like outer outer space. A long distance traveler named Comet Borisov is only the second object ever spotted from outside our solar system. And recently it put on a show for astronomers when a piece broke off the comet, revealing some of its inner structure. It was a once in a lifetime event. But because of the coronavirus lockdown, there were almost no astronomers watching it. Luckily, UCLA Professor David Jewitt did catch a glimpse thanks to the Hubble Space Telescope. We reached him in Los Angeles.

CO: Professor Jewitt, first of all, can you just describe a comet Borisov out for us?

DAVID JEWITT: Comet Borisov is the second interstellar object discovered in the solar system. And it's the first one that looks like a comet, which means that it formed in orbit around another star. We don't know where, we don't know when. And by chance, it's just passing through our solar system.

CO: So how rare is it to get a visit from an interstellar object?

DJ: Well, it never happened prior to 2017 when we got the first one, and that's a strange object called 'Oumuamua [chuckles] it has a strange name. And now we have the second one Borisov discovered last September. So it's very rare. And so that's the interest. You know, this is the first example of population we've never been able to see before.

CO: And so not only has this interstellar object arrived, very rare appearance, but it's been putting on quite a show. What can you tell us about what it's been doing?

DJ: Well, it was discovered already active. So it was coming in towards its closest approach to the sun, which happened on December the 8th. And it already had a coma, which is like a fuzzy atmosphere of dust and gas. And that's been a persistent feature. And actually it was not that interesting in terms of, you know, it looked pretty much the same all the way through till about March the 10th, when suddenly overnight it brightened by maybe 70 or 80 percent. And by colleague in Poland, Michal Drahus, noticed that this brightening might be an indicator of a nucleus breakup. So from comets in the solar system, sometimes we see that the nucleus, which is like the solid bit in the middle, seems to fall apart, or at least it pops off pieces and they fly away and it looks like you have a double comet. And then on the 30th of last month, I saw exactly that with the space telescope. So I've been using the Hubble Space Telescope to look at this thing for months, but its appearance changed on the 30th of March.

CO: So does that mean you've actually been able to get a glimpse at sort of the inner guts of this comet?

DJ: That's what we hope, because, you know, we can't split comets, but the nucleus has not split into two equal parts. It always gives the idea that oh, yes, exactly split in half. But no, it's probably a little fragment that came off. Maybe, you know, 10 metres across. The nucleus itself is not bigger than half a kilometre in radius. So the nucleus is already pretty small and a much smaller piece came off, we think. But that piece probably in lifting off from the surface was exposed ices that never were heated before. So they didn't get the heat of the sun when the comet went around the sun. They've probably never been heated, maybe for billions of years. And so that makes that little piece really active. And it looks to be as bright as the big piece. That means that if we could look at this with telescopes on the ground, we could measure the spectrum and then we could try to figure out basically the composition of fresh ices delivered from a planetary system somewhere else in the Milky Way galaxy. But the big punch in the throat really is the most most ground-based telescopes are shut down because of the coronavirus. So we cannot actually take those pictures.

CO: Don't comets have any respect yet? Can't they acknowledge what's going on here on Earth?

DJ: I don't know. You know, historically, comets were always bad news, right? You see a comet then King Harold is going to get shot in the eye by an arrow or some Chinese emperor has got to die or something like that. So now, you know, there's a connection between this one and the coronavirus.

CO: Well, you could have warned us.

DJ: Well apparently not. So nobody can predict these things. They're flying randomly through the Milky Way. We've estimated how many there are and there are a lot. There are probably over a trillion trillion of these objects in the Milky Way galaxy. But space is so big that we've never seen them until now. This is almost certainly the first time Borisov has ever been anywhere near any star in its entire journey of hundreds of millions or billions of years, except for the star that it formed around in the first place.

CO: So how frustrating is this for astronomers like yourself?

DJ: Well, I'm not that frustrated because I've got the space telescope. So I could see this piece that came off with H.S.T and it would not have been visible in any ground-based telescope had somebody's been looking. But it's disappointing that the big ground-based telescopes can't go at it and try to measure the composition of the ices.

CO: What's to be this comet's fate? What's going to happen with it? Now it's breaking up.

DJ: Well, it came from nowhere. It came from the interstellar medium. So the space between the stars is like an incredible vacuum. It's like way way more empty than any vacuum we could ever make with the most powerful machines. And it is going back there. So it's got to drift off among the stars. It will probably not encounter another star maybe for billions of years, maybe five billion years. I mean, this thing could have been out there for the entire age of the solar system. It just came through by chance. The thing that is really staggering to me is the vast number of these objects that are out there and the fact that, you know, space is so like staggeringly empty. You look at these Star Wars and science fiction movies and the spacecraft is swerving left and right trying to get out of the way of something. But come on! Space is so empty, you don't have to do that. We have four hundred billion stars in the Milky Way, and they're all moving relative to each other. But they never collide. Space is so empty, they never collide. And so the same for this comet. It's out there. It will never hit a star. It probably won't come even close to a star for billions and billions of years. So space is really big.

CO: Just finally, is it in any way, I guess, I don't know, comforting in the midst with all the turmoil that's going on to be contemplating space, to be seeing this. And to realize just how vast it is and how changing it is and how old it is.

DJ: Oh, it sure is, because the coronavirus situation is just depressing, right? I mean, the incompetence of the US administration in dealing with this thing is just really really annoying. You go out there and you look at nature and you realize, you know, that's something totally different. We have no control over this whatsoever. We do have some control over the virus, apparently, but we don't exercise that control. Nature is just like really impressive when it gives you the first member of an entirely new population that most people never even thought about before.

CO: Professor Jewitt thank you for speaking with us.

DJ: Okay. You're welcome.

CO: Take care.

CH: Professor David Jewitt is an astronomer at UCLA. We reached him in Los Angeles.

[Music]

John Prine

CH: A few years ago, Singer-Songwriter Todd Snider said something especially insightful about the songs of John Prine. He told Rolling Stone "His music is like Huckleberry Finn. You get it. Then you listen to it five years later and you really get it. And you listen to it five years later and you go, 'I get it.' And then 10 years later, you go, 'Now I get it.' That's the thing about John Prine. You keep getting him in different ways the longer you listen." It's why he meant so much to so many people, which makes the news of his lost this week really hard to accept. John Prine had been in hospital suffering from COVID-19 symptoms since late last month. And yesterday came the news his fans had dreaded. Mr. Prine died at the age of 73. Fans have peeled the layers of his songs like onions. Illegal Smile from his self-titled debut album in 1971 is no exception. John Prine himself once explained that the song was inspired by his view of the world, "Where I can find myself smiling at stuff nobody else was smiling at."

[Music]

Ahmad al-Rashid

CH: They put themselves in grave danger of trying to get to safety. Last October, 39 Vietnamese migrants died in a refrigerated shipping container in southeast England. Now the driver of the truck carrying them has pleaded guilty to 39 counts of manslaughter. Authorities have arrested several others. And legal proceedings are ongoing in the U.K. and in Vietnam. But those with knowledge of the conditions those migrants faced know that justice will be a lot more complicated than a handful of arrests. Ahmad al-Rashid is a Syrian refugee who now lives in the U.K. When he escaped the bombardment in Aleppo, he hid inside a number of trucks during a grueling 55 day long journey to the U.K. Last October, he spoke with guest host Helen Mann about what it was like to hear the news of the Vietnamese migrants deaths.

AHMAD AL-RASHID: The first thing that came to mind was the memories that came back to me when I was in the back of one of these, you know, refrigerator trucks back in Calais, in the front. It brought back these memories of being stuck in the back, you know, trying desperately to get out, and knocking and pleading for help. It was one of the most horrific experiences of my entire life. Almost you know freezing to death. Not being able to grieve. Metal container, trying to knock, trying to shout, to scream, plead for help. Someone to get me out. But eventually, someone came and they let us out, unlike what happened to this unfortunate 39 people who lost their lives yesterday.

HM: Can you tell us about the process of what brings you to board one of these trucks, and leads you on this dangerous route?

AAR: People need to know and realize that the vast majority of people making these decisions and these journeys are forced. This are not kind of you know voluntary like people going for a walk or going for an adventure. For me, the process was a very complex process because it involves going online, Facebook chats and trying to find the smugglers. Which was, you know, horrific because, unfortunately, there was no other legal pathways for me to be able to do to get where I wanted to get. So the only option that was left was through these criminal gangs, you know, smugglers. And they reach out to you, and you know they give you lots of options and lots of alternatives. You go with them and eventually you know they show their true colours. You know, I remember in Turkey, in Greece, and even in France, they will show your pictures. It’s going to fine. There’s going to be no issues. It’s gonna be super easy. But the reality is it's not. These are all fabrications or lies. All they care about is money and want their money.

CH: Ahmad al-Rashid is a Syrian refugee who now lives in the U.K. He spoke with Helen Mann on As It Happens last October. This week, a Northern Irish truck driver pleaded guilty to 39 counts of manslaughter related to the deaths of a number of Vietnamese migrants in 2019.

[Music]

Part 3: 'Very, very tough': Sports writer says MLB's plan to bring back baseball is a long shot

Baseball Back?

Guest: Jared Diamond

CH: For baseball fans, this is usually the most wonderful time of the year. When spring training has ended, the season set to start, and peanuts and cracker Jack and $17 beers are imminent. But not this year. The coronavirus has forced a major delay of game, which has people wondering when, if ever it will start up again. Well, sources say Major League Baseball may have an answer. And that answer is very very soon. Jared Diamond is the Wall Street Journal's baseball writer. We reached him in Jersey City.

CO: Jared, how soon from now does Major League Baseball think it actually might be able to get players into the field?

JARED DIAMOND: Well, Major League Baseball is trying to be as optimistic as it can and is coming up with a plan or a proposal of a plan, a kernel of an idea to send everybody to Arizona. Keep everybody there at a biodome, and start playing games as soon as late May or early June. Now, this is a very ambitious project with a ton of things that could potentially go wrong. But as we sit here today, this is the best option Major League Baseball thinks it has.

CO: And in your opinion, how realistic is that?

JD: It's going to be very very tough. There's a lot of issues involved with trying to keep everybody sequestered in one place, even if you get the players to agree to it. And they're certainly not all in lockstep on that issue. You also have to worry about all of the other people that are involved with putting on a Major League Baseball game even if you eliminate all the fans. Thousands ultimately, probably, that would need to be sort of kept isolated for a very long time, potentially away from their families. I think it's a very hard thing to see happen. Doesn't mean it's impossible. This story is changing not week by week or day by day, but hour by hour, seemingly. So at this moment, baseball's full steam ahead in trying to just see if it's feasible. But I think what Major League Baseball is finally come to realize is that they are not going to be having a normal 2020 season.

CO: Okay, good. Not a moment too late to realize that we're not in normal anymore. So basically, there wouldn't be any fans in the stands, right?

JD: In this plan, no. There would be no fans in the stands, just the players sitting in the seats six feet apart from each other to maintain proper social distancing.

CO: And they would not be able to have their families with them. No one who's involved with this would be able to have anybody else but themselves.

JD: That's one of the issues being discussed. Could it be that players could bring their families and they'd have to be sequestered too? Of course, that just means more people are now in this biodome and that makes it harder to control. I spoke with someone at Major League Baseball in the MLBPA, the union, over the last couple of days. And one thing that I was told was that when they had their phone call about this, which was about a 30-40 minute phone call, there was no shorter than 70 different issues that the teams thought needed to be worked out before this could even begin to proceed. And I bet by the end of the day, it's more than 70 issues.

CO: Okay. I can understand why the fans would want this somehow to get this back on track and be able to watch baseball this spring. But what about the players? I mean, what's in it for them?

JD: Well, they're not getting paid if they don't play. And yes, they have a lot of money and they're rich. But the reality is, it's millions of dollars they're not making by not playing. So I understand why at least some of them think they need their salaries or they really want their salaries and they want to play. Now, not every player feels that way. Some players are most more financially secure than others. Every player has different family situations. For instance, what happens if you're a player whose wife is supposed to give birth during the summer? Are you allowed to leave to go to that? Are you allowed to come back? If so, these are big issues and it's why not all players agree. But I do understand why those who do want to play say, well, it's a lot of money to leave on the table if we don't find a way to play.

CO: So it's not just the money, though. They want to play baseball.

JD: They do. Most players do. Many many players. And it's tough. These guys have never had never gone probably this long already without playing baseball in their lives. It's almost unfathomable.

CO: Okay, so what's in it for the owners? I mean, they're not going to get the ticket prices in the stadiums. I guess the games will be broadcast, not much advertising is going to be happening during a recession. So what's in it for them?

JD: Well, right now, their income is going to obviously be close to zero. The cash flow is virtually nothing with no games going on. And that's a hard pill to swallow when you're an $11-billion industry like Major League Baseball is. And in today's world, ticket sales and the in-stadium experience is still very important. It drives billions of dollars for the owners. But it's not the majority anymore. They make more money from their giant media rights than they do ticket sales and the like today. And they don't get that money. if there are no games on TV. So they know if they could find a way to get games on television, especially with people stuck at home, the ratings would be probably enormous. And would it make up all of the revenue that they would have in a normal season? No, not even close. But it's a lot better than zero in the eyes of the owners.

CO: Just on a personal note, how much do you miss baseball? This is a big part of your life or a centre essential of your life, isn't it?

JD: It is. It was the day, I really recognize and it really hit me how weird the world is right now -- it was that day. It was when opening day was supposed to have happened on March 26. I had already been home for a while, sequestered like many in the New York area. But it was sort of just getting by day by day. But when opening day came and there was no baseball, it was really difficult to recognize that all these ballparks were supposed to be filled today. For me and for many baseball fans, opening day is the single best day of the year. It is totally our Christmas and it felt like it got cancelled. And you don't know when it's coming back or if it is going to come back at all in 2020. Baseball is a constant for six months every single day. It is sort of there for you as your background noise. You just count on it. You rely on it to be there. And it was unfathomable until a couple of weeks ago that it wouldn't be. And it's still tough that we're now heading into the middle of April soon and baseball is seemingly no closer to starting than it was a few weeks ago.

CO: All right, Jared, a lot of people listening to this or sharing your view on this. And I appreciate speaking with you. Let's get the baseball back.

JD: I hope it's safe to do so soon. That's the most important thing.

CO: Take care.

JD: Thank you.

CH: Jared Diamond writes about baseball for The Wall Street Journal. He's in Jersey City, New Jersey. And there's more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Online Teaching

Guest: Andrea Kwok

CH: After an especially long March break, it's back to school in Ontario. But the classrooms that students are entering look a whole lot different than they're used to. This week, teachers move their lessons online, braving a new frontier in education and hitting more than a few bumps along the way. As schools and school boards scramble to make sure students have access to the proper technology, some teachers are also having to play catch up, learning to navigate a digital classroom. Andrea Kwok has been helping them do it while guiding her own students and her own kids. She's a teacher-librarian and digital lead learner in Toronto.

CO: Andrea, in just a couple of words, how would you best describe the past few days of online learning?

ANDREA KWOK: Well, it's definitely been a learning curve for teachers. And teachers have done a lot of professional development in a short period of time to meet the needs of their students without being face to face.

CO: Okay. What are the biggest obstacles? What are the problems that they are encountering?

AK: Well, I think one of the problems is that there's no universal access to devices. So the issue that we've had is that, you know, the kids in Grade four and up have known their email addresses and they know how to use some of the tools. But then the students that are in the primary grades don't have an email address. And parents are trying to help their children with, you know, the limited age appropriate literacy skills. And so many of the devices they're using belong to parents. And so then they're not able to access things because it's defaulting to the settings of the parents. So that's one of the biggest things they have had the problems of.

CO: How many kids do you teach?

AK: Well, I'm the teacher-librarian and I'm also a special education teacher as well. So I have nine students that I directly support every day. But then I have approximately 320 students in the school that I've been supporting in various capacities.

CO: Okay. So in a typical kind of classroom for a teacher, how do they do it? Is it one on one? Is it Zoom conference or what do they actually do to teach them?

AK: It really depends on what the teacher's preferences are and depends on those schools. At the school that I teach at, we've been using Google classroom. And students can ask questions and you can give direct feedback individually. And then some other teachers are choosing to use Brightspace. And they are having the teacher do a video lesson and then also record it so that people can refer to it if they're not able to access it in the moment.

CO: But now, just as far as the kids that are being taught this way, I guess it's a fairly uneven distribution of needs, right? Some kids just thrive. They can learn very quickly, even on their own. Other kids most need special attention. How do those kids -- how do the ones that might be left behind in this gap actually get what they need?

AK: That's my biggest concern about this, is that it's a huge equity issue where if people don't have access to Internet at home, right away that doesn't help. And then if they don't have devices, well, I mean, I'd teach, you know, rather out affluent neighbourhood and my children go to school in a rather affluent neighbourhood, but I know across the TDB there's children that only have like old cell phones that can access Wi-Fi. And I'm just imagining kids trying to hover outside of libraries and schools, trying to get into their assignments to do them. And even then, because they're far away from the signals, it's not reliable. And then it's also parent engagement and parent ability to support their children through these things. Like if children don't have an adult to help them problem solve, then they're not able to do it.

CO: So parents, for instance, or newcomers to Canada, immigrants, refugees whose language skills aren't there, whose computer access is limited, whose knowledge of the curriculum isn't there. They're at a serious disadvantage to those who are in districts like you and your kids are in.

AK: Absolutely. Like, I'm not really worried about the overall academic needs of the students in the area in Toronto that I live and teach in. But throughout the entire province, there are definitely some concerns.

CO: Now, as far as the curriculum itself, it's been modified, hasn't it? Modified and simplified, they say, so that it's basically focusing on things that are creative, innovative. I mean, is it possible just at this point just to sort of rethink what's really required -- not for high school students, perhaps or for the seniors, but for the grade school kids, can they just sort of reinvent this somewhat to adapt?

AK: And I think that's a great idea. I over the years have become less and less of a teacher that uses textbooks -- and more of creating my own things. Like I work with students with severe learning disabilities and they have limited abilities to read things. And the tools are on the computer so that they can use assistive technology to read things to them. And I realized that if I put like a math test in a Google forum and they could complete it like a survey, that's easier for them to show what they know without me having to read it to them and without their ability to writing being a barrier for them to complete math -- if say math computations is something they're better at than, say, spelling. So I think that this is definitely good for teachers to learn new things. I also think it's a good way to be creative and encourage people to use what they have. My son is in Grade 1 and his assignment yesterday was calculating the perimeter of four objects that he could find either in the house or outside. And I thought that was a great activity and it's not from a textbook. So that was lovely.

CO: And we've seen some very innovative things. Even the parents are coming up with innovative ways just to teach things with things around the house.

AK: Oh, absolutely. This morning, actually, my son, when he was in his video chat and they were doing math computations, I looked over his shoulder and I'm like, you need a piece of paper to write these down. And he says, Oh, actually Mommy, could you get my whiteboard? Because it's faster and easier to write on. So it's made me think about how we use the equipment we have.

CO: Well, Andrea, best of luck teaching the students and best of luck I'll put out to all those kids out there who are going to be learning in a totally different way. And thank you for speaking with us.

AK: Oh, no problem. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

AK: Bye.

CH: Andrea Kwok is a teacher-librarian and digital lead learner in Toronto, which is where we reached her.

[Music]

Landlord Response

Guest: Alison Vanderkop

CH: As of this week, nearly two million Canadians have applied for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit. Some cheques have already made their way into people's hands and more relief is coming to small and medium sized businesses, according to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, last night we spoke with Toronto restaurant owner John Ciampini, who told us he won't be able to pay the nearly $40000 in rent he owes this month. Tonight, we reached Alison Vanderkop for her perspective. She's an antiques dealer and a landlord on the receiving end of that kind of rent. And her commercial tenant can't pay either. We reached Ms. Vanderkop in Brantford, Ontario.

CO: Alison, what kind of a wrench has the COVID-19 lockdown phoned into your finances?

ALISON VANDERKOP: Well, our sources of income have pretty much just dried up overnight.

CO: And those were what?

AV: My husband and I are antique dealers. We have two booths at a couple of different antique markets. So that's not going to be happening.

CO: And then you're also a landlord.

AV: So we have a building that has a commercial tenant and we have four apartments.

CO: Have they paid their rent?

AV: Our apartments have paid their rent. Our commercial tenant was unable to.

CO: And what arrangements have you made for with your commercial tenant?

AV: Well, we've talked to him about it and we've told him we'll work with him. If he can't pay the rent, he can't pay the rent. I mean, there's not a whole lot that we could do about that, unfortunately. Well, he's a good tenant. He's a long term tenant. And, you know, even if we were inclined to, I don't think we could turf him out. And it would certainly not be to anybody's benefit. I mean, nobody's looking for store space right now to rent.

CO: But others have been not sharing that experience. They're finding that their landlords are saying, well, we're not going to work with you. We just don't care. We've got bills to pay as well. The Globe and Mail did a series of interviews with people in businesses, commercial space that they're renting. And about half of them are getting someone who's sympathetic, another half are not. What do you say to them?

AV: Well, it's hard to know what the situation is. But I would certainly say that we're in a position where we don't have a huge mortgage. We're able to cover the mortgage for a few months, if it comes down to that. But if I was a landlord who had the bank breathing down my neck which our bank has actually made or our credit union has made it very clear that they're not interested in cooperating with us in any way. We are expected to pay in full and on time. There's no deferment. They were pretty adamant about that.

CO: And there might be a misunderstanding people have that banks are offering mortgage deferments. Which doesn't mean that you have to pay it. But that's going to domestic mortgage, not with commercial ones, right? Is that correct?

AV: Exactly. Exactly.

CO: You wrote a letter to The Globe and Mail and you said that people should quit blaming landlords as though we aren't as anxious and frightened for our future as any renters might be. What do you want to say?

AV: Exactly that. That we're in the same position. We're also small business people. That's how we've made our living all our lives. We have a lot of sympathy for small business -- people who are struggling and, you know, the debt that they're accruing. And it's tough. It's tough. There's no question about it. But I don't think hitting landlords and tenants against each other is the answer. You know, there's a lot of rhetoric about we're all in this together and let's all cooperate and make it work. Well, I think most people genuinely do want to do that. But like I say, if you put a bank that's breathing down your neck, what are you supposed to do?

CO: But is the bank really going to foreclose on you? I mean, the bank is in the same situation where it's not in their interest to shut you down, right?

AV: I don't know. I would hope not. I would hope not. I mean, our bank has certainly told us that they would never foreclose on us if it came down to that. But I don't have anything in writing. And certainly the tone when we tried to talk to them and possibly, you know, if in the future we might need some help or some extra consideration, they were absolutely not willing to play ball with us at all.

CO: You mentioned earlier that it's not in your interest to turf out your tenant, because in this market, who are you going to rent to? I mean, a number of others have said the same thing who have had tough landlords -- they say, well, here are the keys, good luck finding someone to take this space. Why do you think so many landlords are being so unreasonable about this?

AV: I can only assume that they're being pushed from the other end. I don't know. I can't answer that. I know that a lot of landlords who are a small income property owners who maybe have a few tenants have pretty close relationships with their tenants. I feel as though we do and good relationships with them and we would do anything to work with them. I mean, they are our friends. The last thing we would want to do is see any of them lose their livelihood or lose their place to live. I don't know. I can't answer why some landlords might not be as willing to be accommodating.

CO: The federal government is offering a number of programs. Is there anything in those offers that help you?

AV: No, not so far. Not from what we can tell. We're sole proprietorship, small business owners. So we have no employees. The loan that the government is offering -- the $40000 interest free loan is for businesses who have a minimum of a $50000 payroll. So we're counting on that. And because our residential tenants are paying their rent, which comes close to covering the mortgage on our building, that's considered income. So we're not eligible for the emergency relief benefit either.

CO: If you could talk to Prime Minister Tudo Trudeau and tell him your situation, what would be your message? What would you say you need in order to survive this economic downfall?

AV: I just think that we may be some of the people that are falling through the cracks. I think there have to be fewer restrictions on access to some of this money.

CO: And that would help you?

AV: It definitely would help us. It definitely would help us. I mean, we're in a position where we can hang on for a few months, but it's such a fluid situation. I mean, who knows where this is going?

CO: Who knows where this is going? Absolutely. Alison, thank you for speaking with us.

AV: You're welcome.

CO: Take care.

AV: You too.

CH: Alison Vanderkop is an antique dealer and a landlord. We reached her in Brantford, Ontario.

[Music]

CO: Oh, come on!

GH: That's steep.

CO: No, come on! A brick! You’re saying a brick will roll down your street?

GY: Yes.

CO: What do you have to do to convince the Guinness people that, in fact, you do have the steepest street?

GY: Well, we've done this surveying by qualified surveyor. We've taken all the records. We will now do the number crunching so we can work out the grades and the gradient. We get all this sorted together and sorted out by the local council, which is a statutory body. They have to approve of the figures that we have created. We then have to have ten other pieces of documentation, which include witness reports, videos, photographs of the street, plans of the angle. We've got all this data, we put it all together, and then we submit it to Guinness World Records. And in three months, they come back and tell us whether we've got it or not.

CO: And you've been working with your friend, Myrddyn Phillips?

GY: [Corrects Carol’s pronunciation on a name that is hard to pronounce -- laughter]

CO: Ok. This is a side story here. But I understand that you and Myrddyn have been recognized in another book as the dullest men in the United Kingdom.

GY: Absolutely. Yes, I'm extremely dull. And Myrddyn is slightly duller. Myrddyn’s claim to fame is that he surveys hills to see if they qualify as a mountain.

CO: But so why did you have to do to earn the distinction of being as dull as Myrddyn?

GY: Well, I've written several books on architectural follies — eccentric architecture.

CH: That was Gwyn Headley from Harlech, Wales speaking with Carol in January of 2019. Baldwin Street in New Zealand has now been deemed the steepest street in the world again.

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April 08, 2020 Episode Transcript

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