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The AIH Transcript for March 26, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Ali Hassan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

Ali Hassan: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

AH: Tonight:

AH: Harsh realities. Thousands dead, and hospitals near the breaking point. We talk to an ER doctor in Spain who has a message for Canada: Don't manage the early days of an outbreak the way we did.

CO: "Bock" by popular request, from the As It Happens archives. A story about a beloved chicken named Boo Boo who stared death in the eye and lived to cluck the tale.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: New Canadian ambassador, COVID: federal prisons, From our archives: Boo Boo the Chicken

AH: In Ottawa today Justin Trudeau found himself taking questions that would have been unimaginable at any other point in his prime ministership.

[sc]

JANET SILVER: The Trump administration wants to have U.S. military troops stationed within 30 kilometres of the Canadian-U.S. border to cut back over fears with regards to COVID-19, and illegal border crossings. I want to know if you think this is necessary? And if you or any of your colleagues in your government had any discussions with the Trump administration about this?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canada and the United States have the longest unmilitarized border in the world, and it is very much in both of our interests for it to remain that way. We have been in discussions with the United States on this.

[/sc]

AH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau, answering a question from Global's Janet Silver in Ottawa earlier today. All of this has made for quite a first day for Canada's new Ambassador to Washington. Kirsten Hillman has been in the role in an acting capacity since last fall. Now she's been given the full title — in the middle of a pandemic. We reached Ambasador Hillman in Washington DC.

CO: Ambassador Hillman, first of all, congratulations, I think?

KIRSTEN HILLMAN: [both chuckling] Thank you, Carol. Thank you very much.

CO: I'm sure there are better circumstances in which you would like to accept this position?

KH: Well, I... It's a huge honour to accept this position. You know, there's no more significant relationship for Canada in the world than our relationship with the United States. So I couldn't be more pleased and honoured to have been able to accept this appointment today.

CO: We just heard Prime Minister Trudeau responding to the news that it was a real possibility that we will see U.S. troops stationed near the Canadian border. What can you tell us about that?

KH: So as the prime minister mentioned, this is a topic that has come up in the last few days with the United States. And we have been making, and I personally have been making... Having some conversations with American interlocutors to emphasize the fact that, you know, Canada than us does that as the prime minister said, we share the longest and most successful border relationship in the world. It's a non-militarized border that is highly collaborative, as evidenced by the unprecedented and fully-aligned agreement that we came to last week to limit non-essential travel between Canada and the United States. And I think they heard our message that was delivered not only by me but by Minister Blair and Minister Sajjan and others very, very clearly. I think they heard our message.

CO: Did they dgive you any warning of this as it did? Did you know that this was a consideration that we would have troops 30 kilometres away from the Canadian border?

KH: As I said, the conversation has been ongoing for a couple of days now.

CO: And do you think it's going to happen?

KH: I think that's a question for the U.S. government. It's their territory. It's their decision. We certainly hope it doesn't. We don't think it's necessary. We don't think that it's helpful at this time. But it's really something that they will have to decide.

CO: President Trump is talking about getting the United States back to work by Easter. Prime Minister Trudeau is begging people to stay at home, and making it clear that this could be weeks and even months. How does a diplomat like you bridge the gap between two very different approaches when we’re so close together as neighbours?

KH: Yeah, I mean, you know, from day one, our government has approached their response to the pandemic based on science, based on the facts, based on advice from our experts, and have taken all necessary measures to manage this as best we can in a highly evolving, quickly evolving situation. Our responsibility is to keep the lines of communication open. My responsibility specifically is to build on all of the relationships that I have down here with senior members of the U.S. administration to communicate our objectives and to try and work together. But ultimately, our number one responsibility is protecting Canadians.

CO: And so what does that mean? How do you protect Canadians when we're hearing fear, real fear coming from members on the Canadian side of the border and some of the cities that they're looking at the possibility that the United States will be moving around, people will be back to normal, while we are still locked down because of concerns over the pandemic. So what do you say to those mayors?

KH: I think we say that we are going to continue to adopt measures based on science and the best advice available. And if that means we have to adapt the way in which we are doing things today based on our evolving situation, we most certainly will do so.

CO: But how is it going to work? I mean, let's just say on something like trade. I know you worked very hard on the renewed NAFTA, and we have that ratified. And at the same time, we have, as you know, supply lines that go back and forth across borders for the manufacturing of things like automobiles. And if the United States is back working at those assembly lines and we're not, what happens to that crucial NAFTA relationship?

KH: Well, I guess that the relationship will continue to persist. This is a moment in time that we're facing together. Canada equally wants to make sure that we are able to keep our supply chains open as much as is possible and safe based on the overriding objective, which is to protect Canadians and keep them healthy. So it's hard to speculate exactly what will happen three days from now, two weeks from now, three weeks from now, because you know as well as I do, this is a very, very quickly moving file. But we have Canadians’ health and best interests at the forefront of our minds. And at the same time, we have to try and make sure that what we need to just supply Canadians their essential food security and health security is able to come into our country. And that's why the really excellent and collaborative agreement that we were able to come to last week with the Americans is so significant. Because we have seen a very important decrease in non-essential travel, but we have seen an effective continuation of commercial travel.

CO: And I know you haven't got much time. I just want to nail this home... This point a bit more, which is that is that the message you're taking to Washington? If there's a situation where in the supply chain, Canada is not going to be able to take part in that because our manufacturing is not up and running because of this. Is the message that you are getting from Ottawa to take to Washington, that we are not going to participate in that if we have to keep our country in lockdown?

KH: I think the message that I bring to Washington is that Canada has, and our government has, as its number one priority to be making decisions that are science-based and that are going to deal with the pandemic in a way that protects Canadians. And what that means today or tomorrow or next week will depend on the facts on the ground.

CO: Ambassador Hillman, I wish you the best of luck in your new post. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KH: Thanks, Carol. Nice to talk to you.

AH: Kirsten Hillman is Canada's new Ambassador to Washington. We reached her today in Washington, DC.

[Music: AMbient]

COVID: federal prisons

Guest: Kim Pate

[Music: Horns!]

AH: We know the Heimlich Maneuver isn't the medical community’s first recommended option anymore. But you can't blame Jackie Calhoun for using it. He was panicking, and his chicken was in serious danger. During the pandemic, we've been visiting the As It Happens archives for some of the more unusual stories from our past. Today, we're responding to a listener who goes by "Course Instructor" on Twitter. After yesterday's interview from the archives, "Course Instructor" tweeted, "thanks for the Cheetos story. I needed that. Tomorrow let's hear the story about the chicken that got mouth to mouth." You've got it, Course Instructor. In February of 2006, guest host Diane Buckner spoke with Jackie Calhoun of Arkansas. And then his sister, Marian Morris, and then Becky Calhoun, Jackie’s wife. And the subject of this epic tale with multiple narrators was… Boo Boo the Chicken — who died, and was semi-miraculously revived.

[/sc]

DIANE BUCKNER: Jackie, can we start with you? When did you first realize there was a problem with Boo Boo?

JACKIE CALHOUN: Well, I came in for lunch, and I heard some commotion in the chicken yard. And, you know, you always when there's commotion in the chicken yard, you gotta go check it out. And so I went around there. And you never know what you're gonna find. But I found Boo Boo floating in the pond, facedown, just floating there.

DB: So what did you do?

JC: I went over there, and I picked that chicken up. And, of course, we got these chickens just to enjoy and have fun with them and watch them. And I didn’t wanna lose a chicken, you know? And so Boo Boo is kinda purdy. So I just picked that chicken up. I said, in the name of Jesus, you’re goin’ to live, and you not go die. And I started squeezing it and giving it the chicken Heimlich, I guess, you know? Upside down, shook it, and squeezed it, and see if I can get some life back into it.

DB: And what happened?

JC: Well, not a whole lot. And so I brought it round to Becky, my wife, and she was sitting on the front porch. And showed her what had happened, and I didn't know much what to do. I just kept squeezing it and shaking it and trying to get some life into it. I was out in the front there. And couldn't get much response. So I just wrapped it up in a towel, gave it to Becky and said, you got to fix this chicken because I got to go to work. So she was sitting there, and I went to work.

DB: You thought at this point that was the end of Boo Boo?

JC: Yeah, yeah, You know, I just... Well, I did all I know to do. Now, as I drove away, I thought, you know… Well, I did think of this. I thought maybe I could use a vacuum cleaner and suck that water right out of it to help us, you know? But I quickly discarded that idea. But after I left going back to work, I thought I could've given that chicken mouth-to-beak resuscitation. Cut I couldn't…. You know, I had to go to work.

DB: Well, maybe we should ask Marian to pick up the story here.

JKC: Yeah, that's what… Then, along comes Sis a few minutes later. Sis, tell her what happened.

MARIAN MORRIS: Well, I just stopped to check on Becky. And there was a dead chicken [hearty laughing] there. And I am a retired nurse, and I just decided on a whim to see if I remembered how to do CPR. And I opened its little beak, and I blew in its mouth, and its eyes popped open. [DB gasps and MM chuckles]. And chest compressions, and I’d blow in its mouth, and its eyes would pop open. And I did that for a while. And I told Becky I actually need to get it warm. It was wet. I had to go now. So I left it. I knew it was alive. I didn't know if it would keep on living.

DB: What did you think when the eyes popped open like that? [MM, JC and BC all laughing]

MM: I cracked up laughing.

DB: Laughing?!

MM: Well, it was funny. [laughing some more]. It’s the reason I kept on doing it though, cause its eyes would pop out.

JC: Not every day you blow into a chicken and its eyes pop open — a dead chicken, you know?

DB: That doesn't happen every day.

MM: No, it doesn’t.

DB: But what happened next?

MM: I left it with Becky. I was on my walk, and I went, well, it’ll either make it or it won't, you know? I left, and then Jackie came back later.

JC: Yeah, about mid afternoon, I came back, and had to get some materials and stuff. And that chicken was still alive. And Becky told me, she said, you won't believe what your sister did. [BC laughing in the background] And she told me that she gave him mouth-to-mouth. And so I though, if she can do it, I can too. So I took that chicken out front in the sunshine. And I sat it on that brick pillar. And then for fifteen minutes, I gave that chicken mouth-to-mouth. I'd blow into it, and then let it go down, and blow into it. And it would make a sort of a gurgling sound. I’d blow into it. And, well, I had to get back to work. So I told Becky, I says, well, you’re just going to have to say some more words over it because I've done all I know how to do. And we wrapped it in the towel, and left the chicken with my wife, Becky. That rocked on until that evening, when I came in. And that evening, when I came in, the chicken was still damp and everything. So we dried it out with a hairdryer, and put it in ICU. You know, ICU is a cardboard box in the office there that we laid the chicken in.

DB: This was your own personal intensive care unit that you had created just on this occasion, or is that always around your house?

JC: Oh no, no, this is an improvisation. Yeah, a quick Improvisation. When you got a dead chicken on your hands, you got to figure out somewhere, you know, to bring it around. But it had life in it. And so…

DB: How could you tell? How could you tell at this point?

JC: Well, how could we tell it had life in it, Becky?

BC: It was holding its head, up and its eyes were open. And it couldn't stand up, but it was kind of flop from side to side. So we knew that it was reviving. It was a lot better than it had been earlier.

DB: So it was still on the cardboard box?

BC: Yeah. And so it wasn't until the next day, he took it out on the front porch and put it in the sunshine. And I was sitting out there. And it hadn't done anything except sit there with it’s head up and eyes open. And I was reading about Lazarus being raised from the dead. And about that time, that thing squawked and jumped up out of the box. And I called my husband, and I says, you will not believe this chicken has just been revived!

DB: You were reading about Lazarus in the Bible at the moment that the chicken came back to life?

BC: [slight chuckle] It wasn't planned or anything. That was just my normal bible reading. So I just got to that place when Lazarus is raised from the dead, and the chicken squawked and jumped out of that box.

DB: Oh my goodness! And so Jackie came running at that point?

BC: Well, I called him, and I told him Lazarus, Lazarette now. I told him what she had done. And so he was going to come home and put her out in the chicken pens, and Jackie's sister showed up. And so we had her take him out there, or had her take the bird out there to the chicken pens. And so then it started standing up, and walking around, but wasn't real steady. But by the next day, it was straightened out and walking real good.

JC: Now, there for a while, the legs were curled in under it, and everything. So this… What’s the time frame? Twenty-four hours?

BC: Twenty-four hours.

JC: Yeah, it went from zero, to curled up and wobbling around, to it jumped out of the box that next day. So another 24 hours, it's up and maneuvering around a little bit.

DB: Isn't that amazing! Now, tell me, Jackie, why was Boo Boo so important? Sorry, Lazarette, so important to you?

JC: Well, back there in the winter, we just went down to a local farm store, just bought some chickens, you know?

BC: Just for pets. For the grandkids.

JC: Just for pets, for the grandkids to, you know, have fun. And I enjoy watching them. They're kind of interesting to watch them, you know? And they're pretty. They're nothing special as far as just that they’re our pets, you know? And I just didn't want to lose one of our pets, cause I go to the window back there and look out in the chicken yard, and I see um, and I watch them, you know? And it's just fun. And I just don't like to lose it, you know? And so that's what proceeded to revive it.

DB: And you didn't. You saved that chicken's life. Just one little question. That is, what did it actually feel like giving mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a chicken?

JC: [JC and BC laugh] Well, it's sort of a, matter of fact, It's just a thing you got to do. You know, after I spoke over that chicken, it was going to live and not die in the name of Jesus. I said, well, it's not jumping around yet. So I gotta make it good. So you got a job to do. Then, you just blow air into it and give it the best you can. And just go for the best of it.

DB: Well, that is a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

JC: Okay.

DB: And pass on our thanks to Becky and Marian as well.

JC: Okay thanks.

BC: Thank you Bye-bye bye.

DB: Bye-bye.

[/sc]

AH: From our archives, guest host Diane Buckner, speaking with Becky Calhoun, Jackie Calhoun, and Marian Morris, about raising Boo Boo the chicken from the dead, in January of 2006. Boo Boo went on to live a rich, full life. And then died three months later.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Part two: Spain ER doctor, Koalas return

Spain ER doctor

Guest: Ana Gimenez

AH: Ana Gimenez is an emergency room doctor in Spain. We reached her today in Madrid.

[Music: Electronica]

FOA: New Zealand mosque shooter

AH: Today, in a surprise reversal, the man who killed 51 people at a New Zealand mosque last year pleaded guilty to their murders. For Wasseim Alsati, nothing will undo the horror of that day. But nothing can take away its unexpected affirmations either. Mr. Alsati was walking towards the Al Noor Mosque in Christchurch with his young daughter, Alen, when they were both shot by the gunman as he left the building. The father and daughter each needed multiple surgeries, and are still recovering today. Last April — one month after the shooting — we spoke with Wasseim Alsati about its immediate aftermath.

[sc]

WA: Two strangers come pass, ask us what's going on, what's been happening. And I said to him my daughter bleeding. But because she bleeding from the back and she bleeding from the tummy. Because the bullet that he used, they explode inside the body. And then I ask another stranger please take us to the hospital. We cannot wait to the ambulance. Within three minutes, we was in a hospital. He drove on the footpath. He cut the light. He was amazing guy. Amazing, amazing kiwi guy help us. By the time they put me in the bed, I stopped bleeding. They start cutting my clothes with a scissor. And I was complaining that I can't take them off. That's the only things I remember we walked into the hospital until I wake up.

CO: When you came out of your own coma, you learned that your daughter was still alive.

WA: I didn't even know that. So I was asking two questions. I was asking about my friend, who passed away in the mosque. I was asking about him. And I was telling I couldn't save my daughter. I couldn't save my daughter.

CO: You thought she hadn't survived?

WA: Yes. So the doctors and everybody and even I saw some flash people that I know in Christchurch, they told me your daughter it's fine. I didn't believe them.

CO: What was that like for you, Wasseim, to see your daughter?

WA: I was a still in coma, but I was slightly opening my eyes. The nurse when he took me to see my daughter, I start crying, and I asked to hold his hand, and hold my daughter hand. And I say to him I thank him a lot. And I was talking to them, and we all start crying.

CO: All the people who helped, everything you've experienced in this, what has that meant for you to see the help you've had from people in New Zealand? The support that came. What have you learned about the society you live in?

WA: He, the shooter, he didn't succeed. He will never succeed, even if there’s 100 children like him. We love each other, but we didn't tell each other how much we love each other. It was like a family that we see each other every day. But we didn't say to each other how much we care about each other. Once this happened, it united us again. He showed us the love in this country — the actual people here. So we love it, and we want to stay here. We're not going anywhere because we call New Zealand it's home.

[/sc]

AH: Wasseim Alsati and his young daughter, Alen, were both injured in last year's shooting at the Al Noor Mosque in New Zealand. Mr. Alsati spoke with Carol last April. Today, the gunman who killed 51 people that day pleaded guilty to their murders.

[Music: Light rock]

Koalas return

Guest: Kellie Leigh

[Music: Island music]

Spring-loaded shoes

Egypt COVID prisons

Guest: Ahdaf Soueif

CO: Ahdaf, we will follow developments, not just in Egypt’s prisons, but this is a story that is in many other countries as well. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AS: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Ahdaf Soueif is an Egyptian novelist and activist. We reached her in Cairo.

[Music: Lullaby]

Winnipeg homeless

Guest: Marion Willis

DOUG MCKENZIE: How's it going, eh?

BM: And today's topic, what was it?

DM: Ah, how come Americans have like….

BM: Right, right, right.

DM: Twist-off beer caps.

BM: Yeah, okay. So like Canadians don't.

[/sc]

AH: A clip from a "Great White North" skit on SCTV, starring fictional brothers Bob and Doug McKenzie — played by Rick Moranis and Dave Thomas. Now, a life-sized bronze statue of the Canadian duo has been unveiled in Edmonton — where the show used to be based. Ritchie Velthuis, the artist who made the the statue, told CBC Edmonton's Radio Active what it looks like.

AH: Coronavirus self-isolation isn't easy. But there are some for whom being cooped up for weeks and months isn't a temporary measure. It's a way of life. Jon Bailey is a former officer on a British submarine who would often be at sea for weeks and months. And he's taken to Twitter to give advice on how to deal with being stuck inside. We reached Mr. Bailey at home near Bournemouth, UK.

CO: Jon, how does this current situation remind you of being in a submarine?

JON BAILEY: It's exactly what reminded me. I sat there Friday night, when they first announced the first stage of our lockdown. I was eating sort of a traditional English fish and chips, which is what we used to get served on board on Fridays to keep the routine. I couldn't go outside. I had some rubbish film to watch on TV. [ CO chuckles] And that's just what reminded me of the inspiration to take to Twitter, just the pass advice to my friends on there. And yeah, 72 hours later, I'm speaking to you. [both laugh]

CO: Now, so when you're in a submarine, this is a giant or a big cigar tube that you're in. Just tell us what that is actually like to be on one of those missions serving duty on a submarine?

JB: Yeah, I could probably just give you a bit of an overview. I was on what we call fleet boats. It’s 80 metres long, nine meters in diameter, most of which is filled full of machinery. So you've got 120 men. There are some women serving now. But back then, it was just men, squeezed into probably about 40 metres space forward. So you're fairly, fairly close living most of the time. You can't move around without actually, you know, passing by somebody quite close. My daily routine watch was six hours on, six hours off. So I'd be woken up by my opposite number. I'd have about an hour to have some food, get my clothes on, and then I'd go and carry out a six-hour watch, which would have me up in the control room, either taking turns, navigating the submarine, working some of the machinery, operating the periscope if we were at Periscope depth. Maybe carrying out an exercise if time allows it.

CO: And how many weeks would you be doing that?

JB: Sitting on the mission? The longest one I ever did underwater was about seven weeks, which is by no means the record, I think, which stands around about 105 days, which is for the submarines which carry the nuclear weapons to go out and hide. So, yeah, they're looking up to fifteen weeks at a time under the water.

CO: Yikes! Now, so you have some recommendations from your experience. The first on your list is you have to have a routine. So what is it that you are telling people they should do in order to get through this tedium?

JB: It's try to... Because we have routines in our everyday life. People go to work. They pick the kids up from school. They go to a club. Maybe they go to church. Maybe they go to mosque, they pray. Now that we have the stage where our world has got a little bit smaller, it’s trying to keep that routine running. And that means you have to create your own routine. And it's best to do that very early on. So, for instance, my routine is I'm getting up at seven o'clock in the morning. I’m having a quick clean up of the house, having some breakfast, having a little relaxation for now before I log on to my work. Because we're fortunately able to work from home at the moment. Spending the morning working. Afternoon, going back to work. Breaking my recreation time out with a workout, and then having dinner at the same time every day. And just trying to keep that routine. And you can also structure a weekly routine within that as well. So certain days, I'll call my mom. Some other days, I'll call somebody else just to change the activities. So one day, I’ll watch TV. The other day, I'll sort out some of my photo albums or something. And just try to get that arranged very early on because your mental health is going to deteriorate a little bit to the point where you don't want to carry out this routine, that you don't want to have this look after yourself, look after others. And that's where the problems can really start.

CO: Now, there are a lot of people online talking about how this is your chance to stay in your pajamas all day. And so, you know, don't don't squander it. But you're recommending not to do that, right?

JB: You can stay in your pajamas. But I recommend that you have a set of pajamas for the daytime as well as a set of pajamas for the nighttime [both laugh]. There's a great Admiral McRaven, from the United States Navy. He wrote a whole book based around the concept of stressing if you want to change the world, you got to get up and make the bed first. And it's just about having that routine. Otherwise, your living conditions are going to go downhill quite quickly, particularly if you are cohabiting or if you’ve got small kids in the house as well.

CO: RIght, I’m going to ask you about that, because one of your suggestions, you said on the submarine or in the submarine, you needed to have some private time. You needed to go to your bunk. It’s the only place you could actually go to be on your own. And so that people should make a dedicated private time and place during your routine. I presume you don't have children on the submarine?

JB: [chuckling] No, generally everybody’s age is above the age of 18. Mentality, yeah, sometimes it can be like having a bunch of kids on board. But yeah, it's very important that you make within this new space, depending on what your family situation is, that, a, that everybody that has a private space or a private time if you can't manage an individual space like you've got one room in the house. Right, you get two hours in it. And then the next person gets two hours in it, just relax and break away from this. Because you’re going to be spending a lot of time... We've just in the UK now, we've been put on lockdown for three weeks, with the possibility of an extension after that. So here we are. We've got a 21-day patrol coming up. And we still need to get away from each other a little bit of time during that.

CO: Perhaps your best piece of advice in this is prospective. And so like patrols, this one will end. That's what you always keep in mind. And that, well, what you're going through is better than dodging barrel bombs. So don't obsess over the news, and just you know it's going to be over soon. So how do people keep that in mind that this is a temporary time in their lives?

JB: You can try and make some plans for the future. The best thing is not to sit there poring over the same news. And, hopefully... Gradually by establishing a routine, the days gradually fly by. So I can't believe like today is almost over.

CO: Because you're getting a lot of people like me calling you. [laughing]

JB: Yeah. Yeah. A bit of a routine yesterday went a little bit a little bit wrong. But, hopefully, if you decide to be proactive and do things, you'll soon get to a point where you're coming up with more ideas about how you can improve things, your activities to do things, you’ll get to the end of this. And, hopefully, you'll have run out of time to do all the things you want to do. It's just limited by your imagination and what you want to get on with.

CO: It's very promising. Okay, experience from a submarine to get you through. Jon, thanks so much.

JB: No worries at all. You take care.

CO: You too. Bye.

CH: Jon Bailey is a former British submarine officer. We reached him at home near Bournemouth, UK.

SOD: Ugandan song

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March 26, 2020 Episode Transcript

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