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The AIH Transcript for October 29, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Stop the presses? Won't even slow them down. Staff at an indigenous newspaper in Ontario keep on filing stories even after someone sets a pickup truck on fire outside their offices.

CH: Man about towns. Justin Trudeau isn't getting much love from Canada's Western premiers, but we'll see if the prime minister got a warmer reception when he reached out to city leaders instead.

CO: No trial -- just a sentence. A Yazidi activist is relieved at the death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, but says he would have preferred to see the ISIS leader face justice in court for enslaving his people.

CH: A correctional correction. Ever since he was released from the Rikers Island jail complex, Vidal Guzman has fought to have it shut down -- so its imminent closure is giving him some sense of the same.

CO: Musical chairs. During intermissions in a Philadelphia production of "Hamilton" one usher has a chance to ensure women get access to the restroom -- and she is not throwing away her shot.

CH: And sparing no ex-pence. Britain's Treasury created commemorative coins with brave slogans to mark the Brexit deadline of October 31st -- all of which are going in the furnace to be replaced by new ones. Eventually. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that sums up: first they coined a phrase -- now they'll rephrase a coin.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: ISIS leader killed in U.S. raid should have faced war crimes tribunal: Yazidi activist

Indigenous newspaper fire

Guests: Lynda Powless

CH: Staff at the Turtle Island News arrived at work yesterday to discover that they had become the story. In the early morning hours, a truck was set on fire near the offices of the Ontario Indigenous newspaper. So near that the fire damaged the building. The newspaper says it considers that a targeted attack -- and police are investigating. Lynda Powless is the publisher of the Turtle Island News. We reached her on the Six Nations of the Grand River in Ohsweken, Ontario.

CO: Lynda are you and your staff back at work today trying to put out the paper?

LYNDA POWLESS: Yes we are. We're trying to work within quite a mess here. [Chuckles]

CO: Well, what happened? Walk us through what happened in the early morning hours of yesterday.

LP: It was shortly after 5:00 a.m. yesterday when I got a call from our alarm company that there was a fire at the newspaper. So we rushed down here, of course -- my son and I. And we got here everybody was already here. Fire was here. Police. The ambulance. And we rushed over to the side of the building and there was steam and fog and everything coming off. They were putting out this truck that was up against the building.

CO: And tell us about the truck.

LP: Well it was a stolen truck -- apparently stolen from Hamilton. And basically a black pickup truck. And it had been driven onto the property and into towards the side of our building, it gets rubbed up against it but it didn't hit it hard simply because the landscaping around that side of the building there was some railway ties down and some cement blocks. It hit those and it kind of bounced off of them which kept it from crashing through the building.

CO: How did the truck get on fire?

LP: Once he did that because the truck didn't catch on fire surprisingly after all that whoever stole the truck got out of the truck and took out the gasoline he had with him, put it all over the ground and the truck and set it on fire as it was leaning up against our building.

CO: Now is this recorded? Is there a video of this?

LP: The only video of it is a really bad video -- it's grainy because of the time of the day and the fogginess is in the air.

CO: Were there witnesses?

LP: No, no. We actually talked to some security guards in the surrounding area who didn't see it until -- didn't even know what had happened until they heard this huge crash and then heard the explosion.

CO: Was there a witness to this gasoline incident?

LP: The firefighters found it. They found the gasoline container and the burning all around the truck that they called it a targeted attack.

CO: What does that mean? What have they told you about that?

LP: That it was deliberately done. That somebody deliberately tried to set fire to our building.

CO: Are there any theories as to why or who was it? Have they found anybody or found any clues as to who this man is?

LP: Not that I'm aware of. They haven't said anything new to us. But they didn't think they were going to have much luck in finding out who did it because everything was burnt up.

CO: How much damage is done to Turtle Island News offices?

LP: Well, significant damage actually. One end of our building is unusable. We have actually construction workers in here now. We have cleaners in here now. Our staff has all showed up for work, by the way [chuckles] and are being very diligent in trying to say what we can. We're trying to squash into one portion of the building while they're cleaning and while construction takes place. Hopefully we'll be able to organize better within the next couple of days. But the rush right now is to get the paper out. We have a printing deadline tonight.

CO: Why would you be targeted? What are your theories?

LP: I actually was kind of surprised by it this time. Because I don't think we had done anything that I can even think or anything that was controversial. The only thing going on in the Six Nations community right now is a very controversial election. And that's because of brand new election code that is causing some problems within the community. I don't know what we would have written that would have irritated anybody. I know we were writing stuff that might irritate people, but it wasn't out yet and won't be out until tomorrow. So I'm at a loss as to why this in particular was done at this point.

CO: So you can't think of anything that you covered that this might be retaliation for?

LP: Retaliation? No. I can't. And we had an attack against the building several years ago. We had someone shoot up the building actually -- shoot up my office in particular. And it was eventually tracked down to a couple of local men who one of them -- their son had raped a girl and was on trial for it. And his mother had appeared in court on his behalf and said that that the girl -- she should have gone to the party. Well I editorialized on it -- obviously about the outrage about even saying something like that. It was within 48 hours our building was shot up.

CO: Was the man convicted?

LP: The man who was on trial for rape was convicted, yes.

CO: Is it possible because you're an Indigenous publication -- is it possibly a racist attack?

LP: I don't think so. I don't think it has anything to do with racism. There have been all kinds of speculation going through the community about it right now. And we've had an outpouring, by the way, of support from our community. In particular, I might add, from women. We have a number of women in our community who are feeling this attack against me as a female business owner in the community by the men in the community who may think that we're speaking out too much. I don't know that there's any truth to that. I know that there has been several issues of violence within the community lately -- people talking about bullying incidents taking place. I don't know if that's all related or not. I know I came to work in the morning and my building was on fire.

CO: What concerns do you have for your safety?

LP: Actually, normally, I don't have concerns because this is my community and everybody just pretty much knows who I am. And I know an awful lot of people in the community now. But I must admit, when I came to work this morning there's a little trepidation there particularly because usually when I come to work I'm the only one here. And I pull up and I unlock and come in. And this morning I thought, do I really want to start? Do I want to stop doing that now?

CO: So it's actually having an effect on you that you question just work.

LP: I've questioned it over the years simply because I know how difficult journalism is within First Nations communities. I mean the mainstream media -- which I've also worked for by the way so not that I'm criticizing in particular -- but they come in when there's a major issue and then they go home again. We're here every day. And we're in communities where people are learning all about how to run governing systems, how to be politicians, how to be police officers and firefighters. We're at that stage and we're here as journalists watching this every day. So it's not unusual to see this kind of behavior against First Nations media within our communities.

CO: Will it make you do things differently? Will you cover things differently because of this?

LP: I won't cover them differently, but we will be a little more aware of our surroundings as we move around.

CO: Well Lynda I hope that you're safe and you do get the paper out. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LP: Thank you so much. You have a good day.

CH: Lynda Powless is the publisher of the Turtle Island News. We reached her on the Six Nations of the Grand River in Ohsweken, Ontario.

[Music]

al-Baghdad: Yazidis

Guest: Mirza Dinnayi

CH: The ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi may be dead. But for thousands of his victims, the suffering continues. Under ISIS rule, members of the Yazidi minority were forced from their homes, enslaved, raped, and killed. Now scores are trying to rebuild their lives in Europe and North America. Many escaped thanks to the help of Yazidi activist Mirza Dinnayi -- who coordinated airlifts of former Yazidi slaves to Germany. We reached Mr. Dinnayi in Hanover. And a warning: this interview contains disturbing details about sexual assault.

CO: Mirza how much of the horrors that Yazidi women went through can be traced directly to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi?

MIRZA DINNAYI: Well the biggest problem -- we had 6,500 Yazidi woman and children who were in the captivity of ISIS. This decision of slavery and sex slavery was directly from Baghdadi -- and the attack against the Yazidis because they consider the Yazidis as infidel who have been, or should be killed, or forcibly converted to Islam, and their woman should be enslaved. It was from Baghdadi and his administration.

CO: My goodness. I'm just going to give our listeners a warning that a lot of what happened to these women is very very disturbing to hear. There were systemic rapes. It wasn't just this moment of it or episodes. It was organized and it was organized by Mr. al-Baghdadi, wasn't it?

MD: Exactly. The rape, sex slavery, and slavery in general was systematically organized by the Sharia court that was established by the Islamic State. In general in every city you had Sharia courts. And in these courts, you had the document, the certificate of slavery, the certificate of sex slavery, all these documents. We have these documents of some of survivors who escaped and brought these documents with them. So you had ownership certificate of slaves, ownership certificates of concubines, and also the selling and buying of women and children. And it was a systematic rape, systematic sex slavery.

CO: And we're talking about very young women and girls -- teenagers -- because there've been reports some of those girls have described how Mr. al-Baghdadi himself led the rapes and directed others to do the same thing to the other women and teenagers and then had men watch. This was an observation activity as well. Did you hear that from the women?

MD: Yeah. The issue is that according to this radical Islamic version, a girl shouldn't be 18 in order to be a target of sex. If they make investigation and they say if she is adult enough physically and she can -- sorry for this word -- she can accept the intercourse physically so then she can be used as a sex slave. So therefore it was easy for them because they justified this kind of paedophilia, justified it with Islamic versions or radical version of Islam.

CO: And they said that many women -- the women who escaped or found smugglers who could get them out of these camps, out of ISIS captors, went looking for you. If they could get to Germany they were told to find Dr. Mirza -- he would be your friend. You must have seen and heard some horrible stories over the years.

MD: Actually yes. Because you know I have only in 2015 I interviewed 1,300 women and children who were in the captivity of ISIS. I was completely traumatized. Until now when I try to sleep I remember some of these stories. And sometimes I cry when I'm alone by myself. So some of these stories you will never forget.

CO: We know some Yazidi women came to Canada and are dealing with very deep trauma. They've been getting some help here. How much help has there been for the women with whom you have had contact?

MD: I think the women were very lucky that there was this German project and the Canadian project because there was no opportunity to treat those kind of trauma in Iraq. We have in Iraq what we had in Iraq for each statistically 250,000 population -- 1 psychotherapist. So you can imagine that. But at least those women and children who came to Germany or to Canada, they had the opportunity to recover, restart, their lives, to have some perspectives, to start as a human being.

CO: What was your reaction when you learned that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had been killed?

MD: Well, generally speaking, everybody was happy that this monster was killed. For my personal opinion, I had hoped that he and all the leadership of ISIS will be in front of an international tribunal in order to be asked about their crimes -- what they did to the population, not only the Yazidis but to all other population. But we are happy that this monster went. I hope that we will defeat also the ideology of al-Baghdadi and the Islamic State established. This is much more dangerous than the presence of one of these terrorists.

CO: And what chances are that we'll ever see any of these ISIS members, these leaders, face justice in a court?

MD: I am afraid that the international community didn't react until now in adequate way to punish those monsters of Islamic State. Until now there is no plan or agenda to establish a tribunal -- neither national tribunal or an international tribunal for the crimes of ISIS, especially for international crimes. What we are trying to do to convince the members of the UN to convince the main power countries to establish such kind of tribunal for the crimes of ISIS. I hope that we will be able to convince these countries, especially the permanent members of the Security Council.

CO: Mirza there's so much tragedy in this. And I appreciate you talking to us and I appreciate all you've done for those women. Thank you.

MD: Thank you very much dear.

CH: We reached Yazidi activist Mirza Dinnayi in Hanover, Germany. And we've posted more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Hamilton head usher

Guest: Tanya Heath

CH: There are a lot of words in the musical "Hamilton" and fans hang on every single one of them. There are thousands of those fans around the world and all of them excitedly line up when tickets go on sale. Which is exactly what happened in Toronto yesterday. The online queue hit 30,000 at one point. And the same will likely happen when "Hamilton" visits other Canadian cities in the coming year. Tanya Heath knows the lengths fans will go to in order to score some tickets because she's seen it and done it herself. Ms. Heath is the head usher at the Forrest Theater in Philadelphia, which is currently showing "Hamilton."

CO: Tanya, what's the most extreme length that you have gone to try and see the play Hamilton?

TANYA HEATH: This is a fun question. [Laughs] Back when the show first released, I was frequently in what they called the cancelation line. And it's basically when you go and literally camp out in the streets of New York City and you wait in the line and hope that somebody in the box office has canceled their tickets so you can buy them. So my greatest experience was during a snow storm I did a 14-hour shift on the sidewalk, got into the show, didn't have enough on my credit card at the time to pay for the ticket. So I spent 14-hours in snow, got my opportunity, and had to give it to the person behind me.

CO: Oh no!

TH: Yes, it was interesting. [Laughs]

CO: And how did you finally get to see the show?

TH: I was actually granted tickets from cast member Javier Munoz. So I befriended them on Twitter and he was sharing his trials with his cancer treatment and things like that. And I befriended him and started following him. And he found out that I spent all this time in January in that line and I was just telling him about it loosey goosey -- and I was just like, okay well it's spring now, I'm going to go try the cancelation line again the next time I go to New York. So I told him when I was in New York and he is just like, Hey! Well by the way since you're already here, I left family and friends tickets for you -- just pick them up at the box office and I'll see you during the matinee.

CO: Wow!

TH: And I was like, "What?!" [Laughs]

CO: And this is Javier Munoz -- who is one of the key performers in the show.

TH: Yeah. He was "Hamilton" that whole week. It was the first vacation Lin Manuel Miranda took.

CO: Well, that's quite a story. [Laughs]

TH: Oh yeah. It's been a fun ride. I love everything about "Hamilton."

CO: You haven't just gone to great lengths to see this show, you have gone to great lengths to be in the show, haven't you? How many times have you auditioned?

TH: As of right now, three. The biggest experience was the first one of course. They did an open-call for whoever wanted to show up. And as you can imagine, like American Idol where people are flooding to audition, I was number 841. And it was a rainy day in New York City and we were looped throughout New York City block just trying to have an opportunity to audition.

CO: What is it about the show -- for those who haven't seen it and probably are planning to because it seems everybody is -- what is it that you like so much about "Hamilton?"

TH: For me, it is the words. "Hamilton" is over 26,000 words. And I'm a writer so immediately I'm just like, woah! Also it's just the appeal of American history -- it is a different scope on it. It's all these things that no one essentially cared about with the founding of America until Lin Manuel Miranda threw music onto it.

CO: Now you like and respect this show "Hamilton" to the degree that you are working at the Forrest Theater in Philadelphia as an usher -- as head usher. And so how much of the show do you get to see in that capacity?

TH: Just as long as the patrons are okay, everyone's in their seats, no one is illegally recording or having any problem -- I literally can stand on the wings and I can watch the guests and I can watch the show. [Laughs]

CO: Do you ever get tired of it?

TH: Never. There's always something new, especially in a touring group. There's always ins and outs. So you get to see some of the swing. You get to see some of the alternate or the understudy. So there's always someone or something new.

CO: Now, you have actually made news in your capacity as head usher because apparently at this theater -- Forrest Theater -- there can be as many as 200 women who need to get to the washroom of which there are 16 stalls and they have a 20-minute intermission. You are apparently a complete whiz at getting people through the whizzing part of their program. [Laughter] How do you do that?

TH: It was a duty -- ha! -- I placed upon myself. We are mostly sold out every night. These are people who are not just local Philadelphians. I've had people from Oklahoma, people from Wisconsin, and they've paid good money and they stood in line. And I know how it feels because I've paid good money and I stood in line. I don't want to miss the show. So I essentially went down there and I'm just like, all right, ladies, we have to figure this out. You have to trust me. Trust your sisters to get you in and out. We cannot waste time. We have to go. We have to keep moving. The stalls are on the left hand side, our sinks are on the right hand side. So it formed the perfect horseshoe. I think U-shape to get the ladies in and out. So you go in this way and everyone comes out the other way.

CO: And have you been successful? Did the women not have to miss the beginning of the second act?

TH: My latest -- well the time to beat I guess is 45 seconds into Act 2. Sometimes the last stragglers are so fragile I'll walk them personally back to their seat. I literally make sure everyone is out of the bathroom. I mean it. Like you're not missing the show. I got you.

CO: All right so that's your advice on washrooms. But what's your advice for Canadians who are looking to score tickets to see "Hamilton" here?

TH: I'm so excited for you! The key with "Hamilton" both for the show and in the show is persistence. You have to be patient and good things will apparently reveal themselves in mysterious ways. But you have to be persistent. [Laughs]

CO: All right. Well coming from someone who has put as much into it as you have to see this show that that's good advice. Tanya best of luck and thanks for speaking with us.

TH: Thank you for having me. I appreciate you so much.

CH: Tanya Heath is the head usher at the Forrest Theater in Philadelphia, which is currently showing "Hamilton." We reached her in Philadelphia.

[Music]

Brexit Coin

CH: "Peace, prosperity, and friendship with all nations." That was the million-dollar message that was set to adorn one side of a commemorative coin marking Britain's scheduled departure from the European Union on Thursday. In fact, chances are it's much more than a one million dollar message, since about 3 million of the 50-pence pieces were reportedly slated for circulation on the leave date of October 31st. And we don't know the actual cost because Her Majesty's Treasury says it will not comment on what it deems, quote, "commercially sensitive information." The Treasury might be more than commercially sensitive right now, though. With a new Brexit extension reached just yesterday. And with Britain now headed toward a general election, it realised those coins inscribed with the October deadline date are no longer worth the copper nickel alloy they're minted on. Without the big change, they're not even small change. So they're headed for the royal furnace, and their metal is to be preserved for the actual as-yet-to-be-determined Brexit date. I should note those coins won't cost the British taxpayer a dime. That is not roughly sixpence -- a tanner -- I guess. The point is both the production costs and now the costs of recycling the metal were to be absorbed by the revenues of the Royal Mint. And rest assured, a coin is still in the works, according to a treasury spokesman. Which means the government is banking that across Britain there remains plenty of love for leaving and that the current currency meltdown isn't a token of a greater meltdown to come.

[Music]

Part 2: Why this former Former Rikers Island inmate fought for years to close the infamous jail

Trudeau: Regina mayor

Guest: Michael Fougere

CH: Justin Trudeau isn't getting the kind of welcome he wants from Canada's prairie premiers. So he's appealing to the region's cities instead. Today, Prime Minister Trudeau called the mayors of both Regina and Saskatoon. Those phone calls have a whole new meaning after this month's election: voters left. Mr. Trudeau without a single Liberal MP between Manitoba and British Columbia. Michael Fougere is the Mayor of Regina.

CO: Mayor Fougere what did the prime minister seem to want?

MICHAEL FOUGERE: Well he phoned to say he's looking at gathering perspectives and having conversations around Saskatchewan I guess Alberta as well to see what's happened over the election and what you should be doing next. And he just wanted to get my opinion.

CO: And what did you have to say to him?

MF: Well I did say to him that there's a deep-seeded anger and frustration in Saskatchewan in particular -- I can speak to that -- surely in western Canada. And the election results showed that. And that concern was that there was no voice in cabinet or in caucus about what's happening in our province. And people are very concerned. And there's a concern about a lack of connection to the economic well-being of western Canada.

CO: And what did he say to you? How did he respond to that?

MF: Well, you know he's guarded but he certainly acknowledge that mistakes have been made and he wants to work harder to ensure there is more productive dialog. And I urged him to speak with Premier Moe and begin the discussion right away. And that discussion is one thing, but actions are more important at this point.

CO: Can you give us a sense of that frustration? What it looks like on the ground? What specifically is going on in Regina, and Saskatchewan in general, particularly your city, as to how badly people are hurting?

MF: Well at one level Ralph Goodale was defeated. He is a person [who is a] very popular individual. He is a casualty of I think people's perspective that the national government was not listening to or helping out our economy and things happening here on the ground. So depending who you talk to, there's talk of a separation even, which I think is a nonstarter as far as I'm concerned. But people are very frustrated and concerned that they're not being heard -- have not been heard. And their economy is suffering because of this and they want to see some change. And they voted for change for the Conservative Party, didn't see the change nationally, so that anger and frustration is heightened.

CO: What specifically? Can you point to some of the industries, some of the areas that people would like to see Ottawa step up and deal with?

MF: Well, I would say first and foremost would be the oil and gas sector. Some of the comments made during the election really pointed that we have to phase out the oil and gas industry. And there's a feeling that that there's been no support while this industry is going through transition. Loss of jobs -- there has been no market support for that by the national government. Climate change is an issue where there's a disconnect between what people are saying here and what is happening nationally. The other element was agriculture products. There were some obviously beyond our control completely. There's a lot of trade agreements that are in flux right now. We've lost markets for some of our primary products and there is no discussion about how we're finding new markets for our products.

CO: You're talking potash, you're talking canola, problems with dealing with China -- is that part of the issues?

MF: That's part issue, no question about that. Loss of markets in China -- no question with that too, yes.

CO: Justin Trudeau said that one of his first orders of business is to get the Trans Mountain pipeline built. And Canadian taxpayers put out 4.5 billion for that pipeline. By the end of its installation it could be about 10 billion dollars. Does that not represent a commitment?

MF: Well, we want to see the pipeline built. It's been a long time. There has been a rejection of other pipelines. And there is a sense of concern this may not be built either. So this is a reflection of people are saying and what I hear on the street, people are concerned and want to see the pipeline built. We want to get our oil to international markets, to get a higher price for it. And we just think it's a critical factor in developing our economy.

CO: But then at the same time, there are those who are saying, well the writing's on the wall -- whatever we do with oil and gas, it's a matter of it being phased out or it seems to be what people regard as where this industry is going. Do you see a way of moving with that? Do you think that not just Regina but Saskatchewan could move in that direction?

MF: I think the conversation shouldn't be so much about phasing out of oil and gas, which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon -- it is how do we consume Canadian oil and gas and not international, not from other countries that are not quite as hospitable as we are. Why you wouldn't want to do that first. But I don't think people in western Canada accept that the oil and gas industry is going to be phased out at any time soon. Oil consumption is going up, and the oil industry and gas industry are doing things that are trying to reduce our carbon footprint as well -- to be efficient. And those conversations are really importation. They may not be the national dialog, but in western Canada oil and gas is a fundamental tenet of the economy. It employs many people, creates many jobs, lots of investment. And we don't see this as being phased out in a short time period.

CO: Are you at all reassured that Prime Minister Trudeau is making these calls to you and your fellow mayors -- and he's now brought in Anne McLellan to help in his transition? Does that give you any hope?

MF: I'm always hopeful. The prime minister reaches out and has a conversation with the mayor of the country, you take the call of course -- a goodwill that good things will happen from that. So I'm always optimistic that he's reaching out, having conversations, gathering perspectives and thinking about next steps to move forward. I think it's very positive. My comment is that I would like to -- hopefully we'll see some action very quickly because there is a lot of impatience out here as well.

CO: And just finally, did that phone call reassure you?

MF: It did, yes.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mayor Fougere thank you.

MF: Thank you very much.

CH: Michael Fougere is the Mayor of Regina, Saskatchewan.

[Music]

Dennis Muilenburg

CH: Today, family members were in Washington to hear from Boeing and they were holding pictures of loved ones who died. Lawmakers with the US Senate Commerce Committee questioned Boeing executives about the 737 Max 8. The plane, which is grounded, now crashed twice -- leaving more than 300 people dead. In his opening statement, Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg apologized to families and said the company was committed to safety. Then senators pressed the CEO to answer questions about the plane and regulations, including the issue of the so-called "MCAS" system. Here's what Senator Richard Blumenthal said in an exchange with Mr. Muilenberg.

SOUNDCLIP

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: Those pilots never had a chance. These loved ones never had a chance. They were in flying coffins as a result of Boeing deciding that it was going to conceal "MCAS" from the pilots. And the best evidence is this message from Mark Forkner saying in effect, we're going to conceal "MCAS," delete it from the manual used in training. When did you become aware of the fact that "MCAS" was not going to be included in the flying manual?

DENNIS MUILENBURG: Senator, first, if I could express my deep sympathies for the...

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: You've done that and my time is limited. I apologize for interrupting you, but I want to know specifically when you became aware of this effort.

DENNIS MUILENBURG: Senator, I can't reference that email...

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: I'm not asking about the email. You've been asked about the email already. I'm asking you about Boeing policy as reflected in this email -- its chief test pilot deciding he was going to mislead pilots who were then going to take passengers into the air, these loved ones, and turn those planes into flying coffins.

DENNIS MUILENBURG: Senator, I'm not sure what Mr. Forkner meant by that email. I can tell you that certification and training materials are not determined by one individual.

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: Well in fact let me just interrupt you again -- in the over 1,600-page original flight manual of Boeing 737 Max, the aircraft's new "MCAS" computer system was mentioned only once -- once in 1,600 hundred pages -- in the glossary of abbreviated terms. So when Boeing came to us and they said, it's the pilot, inexperienced pilot, you were lying to us as well.

DENNIS MUILENBURG: Senator, if I could try to respond to your question. First of all, the premise that we would lie or conceal is just not consistent with our values.

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: Well, I know it's not consistent with the values that you're articulating here. But let me just...since my time is limited, move on. Would you agree that this system of certification and oversight is absolutely broken? That's the lesson here, isn't it? That Boeing lobbied the Congress for more delegation and now we have to reverse that delegation of authority. Would you support those legislative efforts?

DENNIS MUILENBURG: Senator, again, I support taking a hard look at the...

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: I'm not asking you for a hard look. I'm asking you for a commitment here because you have the opportunity to make things right.

CH: That was Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenberg being questioned by US Senator Richard Blumenthal today. A lawyer for Marc Forkner, the former chief technical pilot you heard mentioned in that tape previously told The New York Times, quote, "Based on everything he knew, he absolutely thought this plane was safe."

[Music]

Rikers closing

Guest: Vidal Guzman

CH: When it first opened more than 80 years ago, the Rikers Island complex in New York City was billed as the most perfect prison in the world. But in the decades since, it has become known as Torture Island, and The Oven. Dozens of inmates have died while incarcerated there. And investigations have shown widespread abuses of inmates. Now it's set to shut down. Recently, New York City Council voted to close Rikers Island by the year 2026 and replace it with four new jails. Vidal Guzman fought for the closure of Rikers. He was imprisoned there as a 16-year-old after being convicted as an adult for robbery and drug offenses. We reached Mr. Guzman in New York City.

CO: Vidal you have been part of this campaign to close Rikers for some time now. Why is it so important to you?

VIDAL GUZMAN: Yeah. So the Rikers Island itself, there's 12 jails all together that the Department of Corrections operates. But I was a person who was incarcerated on Rikers at 16-17. And also when I was 19 years old. And I did altogether seven years incarcerated.

CO: And how awful was it?

VG: Yeah. I mean, if you ever want to see hell firsthand you should think about Rikers Island. And that was the story of many people in my community who have come from Rikers knowing that, you know, just because they left Rikers doesn't mean Rikers left them.

CO: And really young kids, right? You were a teenager when you went there. And so what was it like to be there? What was it like for a young fellow to go in there? And what did you encounter?

VG: Yeah. I never knew Rikers Island existed for a 16-year-old. I learned two things about why they call like Rikers Island "Gladiator School" and "Torture Island." The first week I saw two kids back-to-back hang themselves. And the second week I found out why they call it "gladiator school" learning that I had to fight almost every single day to survive. And being 16-years-old when I should have been worried about the prom or worry about you know being outside or after-school program, I was worrying about being on Rikers Island and thinking of how can I survive it every single day.

CO: Why were you there?

VG: You know, I was around the wrong circle, but I was around people -- the same role models as mine was drug lords, pimps, and gang members. And we had no role models and we kind of fell through what we mirrored around our neighbourhoods. So, you know, me getting in trouble and me trying to provide for my family and put the food on the table. So, yeah I was in there awaiting trial for drug cases.

CO: And very young people -- there is one very notoriously awful case of a 16-year-old who was three years at Rikers Island awaiting trial, accused of stealing a small backpack, and eventually the charges were dismissed. But that fellow...well he took his own life. He killed himself, didn't he, when he was 22-years-old before he could get out?

VG: Yeah. And I think there are stories that many many people who have come from Rikers and took their life. But it kind of talks about the horror of how the system and the horror of the cultural at Rikers Island doesn't exist anywhere. And I think his story is of many of people in my neighbourhood being harmed by correctional officers. Being in solitary confinement -- myself I was in solitary confinement for two and a half years, not on Rikers, but in a prison upstate -- and just trying to survive, just trying to think positive in a place where nothing really positive was happening.

CO: But if you have seen other facilities, you've seen that incarceration in general in these places is pretty hard. Is Rikers so much worse than what you've seen elsewhere?

VG: Yeah, it is. It is much worse. The culture that exists there -- I think people don't talk about the fight club that they had on Rikers Island. And a lot of teenagers who were 16/17-years-old had to survive. And we know how much people have died on Rikers Island you know from being in solitary confinement, from people taking their life, even you know drinking the water. We know that a lot of even correctional officers don't even drink the water on Rikers Island because people don't know that Rikers Island is built on a toxic island. And Rikers Island is the only penal colony area that exists in America that incarcerate people. You know to get to Rikers Island -- a lot of people don't know -- you have to go on a bridge to get to Rikers Island. If you ask me how many times my lawyer came to see me all the time that was on Rikers Island, I would tell you two times.

CO: I want to ask you a bit more about that. I just want to go back to one of the other conditions -- you mentioned the bad water -- but I understand that in the summertime it was just unbearable. And there is story of an inmate death -- a homeless ex-Marine who basically baked to death in his cell. It was so hot. Did you experience that?

VG: Yeah, I did. I think a lot of us did. Imagine you being a person and at any moment we can leave our house when the house is too hot or when it's too cold, but imagine you being in a cell and you can't leave. And I know a lot of times a lot of stories of people just saying, you know, I was butt naked in a cell because I'm trying to not bake to death.

CO: The plan is to close Rikers by 2026, to replace it with four smaller jails that will be modern state-of-the-art and be closer to courts and to the lawyers that you need to see. Do you think that that's the right way to go? Do you think that's the answer?

VG: Yes. So the city is going to go to 12 to 4 jails to improve conditions -- whoever is going to be remanded. There's already existing facility -- I was at this facility in Manhattan that they call "The Tombs." I had to climb the wall to look out the window while I was in a cell. We also know that social services are not fully operating in these facilities. Human beings deserve improved conditions -- and until people are tried or whatever happens to return people back to society. So I think this is a step to a right place.

CO: I know that what you're doing now is that you've really had a change of heart. You've decided that you're never going back, but you want to help others re-enter society and avoid what you have been through since you were 16-years-old. So I'm wondering, though, if the answer is to try --- as many have said -- to reduce the levels of incarceration, to have speedier trials, to have bail reform that doesn't keep so many people in remand for years and years. Is that something that needs to be done?

VG: Yes. I mean, we worked on that. April 1st we passed three important bills, speedy trial, discovery law, and bail reform. We almost ended cash bail, but we ended cash bail for misdemeanors, non-violent cases. So on January 1st, 2020, we are going to have nine-thousand people coming home from New York state jails because you're innocent until proven guilty. And that's what our cash bill actually represents. But this is a step. You know, this is a step. And what I want to say, you know, the person who became my mentor when I was upstate and I was in prison was someone who had life. He had 35 years already and 25 to life. No ability to come home or being paroled. But he became a mentor. He actually taught me to believe in myself when I come home and you know, believing in myself got me where I am at now.

CO: Vidal I wish you well in this work that you're doing. It sounds very important. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VG: Thank you.

CH: Vidal Guzman was imprisoned on Rikers Island and then fought for its closure. We reached him in New York City. And we have more on Mr. Guzman's story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Jackie Webster

CH: Jackie Webster was a lot of things: a punchy New Brunswick journalist, a pioneer for women's rights, and the founder of a no-nonsense lunch club where she maintained order with a wooden gavel. The New Brunswick trailblazer died yesterday. She was 97. One more thing about Ms. Webster, she was extremely persuasive. Here's what I mean.

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JACKIE WEBSTER: Now as she relaxed more and more completely, as your body feels almost weightless, I'd like you to visualize and imagine everything I'm going to tell you. I want you to see...

CH: You're getting very sleepy. That's Ms. Webster performing hypnosis on a group of high school students in Fredericton. Besides her illustrious career in journalism and provincial politics, Ms. Webster was a certified hypnotherapist, and she used that skill to help people kick the smoking habit. Here's former As It Happens host Michael Enright asking Jackie Webster back in 1994 how she got into this line of work.

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JACKIE WEBSTER: Well, I'm only into a Fredericton high school, but one of the teachers in that school had gone through my hypnosis program some years ago and quit. And it occurred to him that it would be a good idea to do something for the kids. Since the high school has come up with a novel notion, as of the 1st of January, there will be no smoking anywhere on the school grounds by the students, which is fine and good. Except here you've got a whole [inaudible] of addicted kids. And then this particular teacher, Donny Davis, called me and asked me if I would do something for a little group of five of his students who wanted to quit. Well, it mushroomed. The 5 became 15. And 15 became 30. And 30 became 50. And now there's a great lineup of kids who want to do it.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: You were up to three packs a day. For how many years?

JACKIE WEBSTER: Oh my God. Quite a few years. I write for a living, and I always had the notion that I could not write a news story or feature if I didn't smoke.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: How did you quit? You were hypnotized yourself?

JACKIE WEBSTER: Yeah, I was hypnotized myself. It was a wonderful experience. I felt like the born again people I wanted to stop everywhere on the street and tell them I'd been saved.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And then you learn the technique yourself. You don't hypnotize en masse, do you?

JACKIE WEBSTER: Well here's the thing...yeah. A room which goes completely black, dark, and I've got a candle, which I only use a candle so I can see where their bodies are and I don't trip over them. There they are on foam rubber with a pillow and a blanket. And then you can do quite a few people. I come away from -- I realize I did this morning...exhilarated.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And they're open to it.

JACKIE WEBSTER: Very open to it. Very very open to it. That's why so many kids want to get in on it. Now, there's an interesting sidebar that the grandson -- I have a grandson who is 15 and he is the one for whom I quit initially. So he is now a Grade 10 student in that school. And he tells me that many many of his friends are coming to him and saying, hey, can we get in on your grandmother's program?

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Isn't that great.

JACKIE WEBSTER: He was telling me this morning. He said he's the most popular kid in the class.

CH: That was Jackie Webster speaking with Michael Enright in 1994. Ms. Webster, a journalist, women's rights activist, and hypnotherapist, died this week. She was 97-years-old.

[Music]

Part 3: Fluoride study

Fluoride study

Guest: Tim Caulfield

CH: 30 academics are making the rare request to access all the research data behind a controversial new study on fluoride. The study, which was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics, suggests a link between fluoride exposure in pregnant women and lower IQ scores in their sons. And while the editor of JAMA Pediatrics says he knew publishing it would be controversial. The academics say it's more than that. It's dangerous and could cause undue harm. Tim Caulfield is the Canada Research Chair in Health, Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. And he signed the letter asking for the release of the research data. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Mr. Caulfield, why were you so alarmed when you first learned of this new fluoride study?

TIM CAULFIELD: Well, look this is a very controversial topic and this is a study that cuts against a very large body of evidence. Putting fluoride in water is something that has been studied and supported by public health agencies across the world. So that immediately concern me. And I think it invites further scrutiny.

CO: This study says it's found a link between the fluoride use with pregnant women and the IQs of their sons -- their children -- but sons in particular. Doesn't that sound like something that should be published?

TC: Yes, it does. I think the authors of the letter, including myself -- we're not saying this work shouldn't be done and we're not saying this work is not important. And I also think it's very important to say that we're not saying that there's something fraudulent about this paper. On the contrary, we're calling for greater scrutiny. And remember, this is an association study. So what this study found was just an association -- they can't find causation. And we know from other areas -- think about nutrition and the controversies that have emerged there, think about other kinds of areas where we just pointed to an association -- they are inherently problematic and inherently complex. IQ is a very complex biological phenomenon, right. And how you know all the factors that might relate to that need to be teased out and did this study do that? I think that's an open question.

CO: Okay. Just in layman's terms, can you explain the difference between association and causation in a study conclusion?

TC: Yes. So what the study found was an association. So if someone drinks a certain amount of fluoride, that behavior is associated with a lower IQ -- just in boys and a relatively modest lowering. We don't know if the drinking of fluoride actually caused that. Perhaps the drinking of fluoride is just associate with some other behavior socioeconomics, the IQ of the mother -- we don't know what actually caused the lowering of the IQ. And that's if you buy the rest of the study -- the statistics and the rest of the study.

CO: Well, the study's senior author, who is a York University psychology professor, Christine Till, she told Time Magazine that instructing pregnant women to reduce their fluoride intake is, quote, "a no brainer." And she said, I would even argue that two IQ points would be something, at the population level that we should be concerned about.

TC: Well, this is where I have real problems. And I'm a health policy, science policy, academic. So this is where I really find it problematic. To draw these really strong conclusions and to report them in popular culture as if these conclusions are definitive, I think is really problematic. As I said, particularly given the association nature of the study. So this is where I have real problems. You know, this cuts against a fairly large body of research that suggests that fluoride is completely safe and also effective. It's been hailed by the CDC, for example, as one of the great public health achievements of the last century. So I think we have to put this study in that context and also put it in context of the controversy around fluoride, the conspiracy theories. You know, nine percent of Americans think that fluoride is put in the water for nefarious reasons like mind control. There have been conspiracy theories surrounding fluoride for a very long time. So I think when you have that very controversial context, we have to be careful how we talk about the science.

CO: From a public health point of view, why is this study, in your view, dangerous?

TC: Because it may result in a lowering of trust in public health institutions that have embraced fluoride. It may lead to -- I'm worried that it will lead to a pushback against putting fluoride in water when current science suggests that it's safe. And I also think that it raises concern about how science is done and what kind of science we use to make public health decisions.

CO: There are studies, of course, demonstrating that the use of fluoride has significantly reduced tooth decay. In Calgary where they don't have fluoridation because of concerns there -- they're looking at reintroducing it. Today, city council is looking at that. Do you think that this study could possibly have an impact on their decision?

TC: I think it will for sure. I don't know if it's actually going to be determinative, but, you know, it's going to be raised. You're already seeing these headlines around the world that this study generated suggesting that fluoride causes a reduction in IQ. And we don't know that for sure. So I think that those who are anti-fluoride are absolutely going to use this study as if it is definitive and as if it suggests that we should stop the fluoridation policies that we've seen be so effective around the world.

CO: So you and other academics want to see the data that was used. You're calling on the US National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, which helped to fund this study. You want to see them release the research data. How successful have you been in getting that done?

TC: It's my understanding to date we have not had access to this data. And I think it's important to note that there's growing recognition that having access to the raw data is required. This transparency in science is required in order to have public trust, but also, perhaps more importantly, to allow the replication of research -- that's fundamental to good science. So I think that's really what this letter is calling for. Given the dramatic results of the study, given the impact that this study could have on public health policy, and given its relevance to science more broadly, let's make sure this is as transparent as possible and that there's as much scientific scrutiny as possible.

CO: You've written a lot about the anti-vax movement, so you know how quickly things can have an impact and how difficult it is to reverse them. When it comes to this study is it too late to prevent that from happening now?

TC: I'm afraid it is too late. You know, this study is going to live on forever. Like these headlines are going to live on forever. And in the world of conspiracy theories, even if there is a reversal or a study that shows this study even, in fact, does not hold up -- it almost doesn't matter. I think unfortunately, this result is going to live on forever. And anti-vaxs and anti-fluoride individuals are going to use that as proof that fluoride is dangerous.

CO: We'll have to leave it there. Mr. Caulfield, thank you.

TC: Thanks very much.

CH: Tim Caulfield is the Canada Research Chair in Health, Law and Policy at the University of Alberta. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music]

Vladimir Bukovsky

CH: He was arrested and spent 12 years in prisons, labor camps, and psychiatric hospitals. But Vladimir Bukovsky never stopped speaking out against the Soviet government. The Russian dissident died on Sunday. He was 76-years-old. Mr. Bukovsky was best known for exposing the Soviet system of punitive psychiatry. There dissidents like him who dared to challenge the state were thrown into psychiatric hospitals for treatment. When he refused to shut up the Soviets finally forced him into exile, which still didn't silence him. In 2007, he took a run at the presidency. Although the Kremlin ultimately disqualified him. At the time, Vladimir Bukovsky spoke with Carol about his campaign and his activist past. Beginning with his decision to join an underground organization in high school. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

VLADIMIR BUKOVSKY: Well, at that time, the risk was very high. Just for joining any organization or even saying something publicly, you were likely to be shipped off for seven years, five years, to the concentration camps. Or as it later happened, to lunatic asylums. The idea of committing sane opponents to lunatic asylums was worked out in 60s, particularly under Khrushchev. Then for a while it was postponed -- it was not used. And then at the end of 60s again under the new leaders, it was employed again. And of course, that scares people. Believe me. I mean I knew people who would risk their life easily. But risking your sanity -- not everyone would take that challenge.

CO: You are describing how you were branded a psychopath and put into a lunatic asylum. And you were the one that actually exposed the system of putting dissidents in insane asylums as a way to shut them up -- so you exposed that to the outside world.

VLADIMIR BUKOVSKY: Yeah, I did that. In 1970, I've collected documents proving it, including some authentic medical examinations of some of my friends and send it all to World Psychiatric Association, asking them to make their assessment and if they agree with me to condemn this malpractice. So they did actually after a long campaign. So we won. And after that and the end of 80s, there was a review of the law governing the commitment to psychiatric hospitals. So the practice was abandoned. And with the coming to power of KGB again, 8 or 7 years ago, the practice was revived. The law was reviewed again. And it allowed the psychiatric abuse for political purposes.

CO: You are referring to Larisa Arap who was held in a psychiatric clinic after writing a book that exposed the abuses in a local psychiatric hospital. Is that an example as you're saying -- the return of this system?

VLADIMIR BUKOVSKY: Yeah, it's one of the examples. We already have about half a dozen cases and they're growing. The case of Larisa Arap became very famous because the media picked it up and helped her greatly. But there are some cases of people who are still committed to psychiatric hospitals for their political views and nothing happens.

CH: From 2007, that's Carol's conversation with the late Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovsky. Mr. Bukovsky died on Sunday. He was 76-years-old.

[Music]

Montreal apartment crash

Guest: Melissa Malo

CH: On Monday morning, Melissa Malo left her apartment to take her two children to school in Montreal's Saint-Henri neighbourhood, a bit earlier than usual. And that was a good thing because not long after she got a call from her neighbour saying there was a minivan in her kitchen. What's even worse is it's not the first time something like this has happened. We reached Melissa Malo at her home in Montreal.

CO: Melissa, just how many times has a vehicle crashed into your apartment?

MELISSA MALO: It is the fourth time.

CO: Four times?!

MM: Yes. It has happened four times in six years.

CO: Is this all the time you were in the apartment?

MM: No. The previous three times it was the other tenant. And the fourth time it was me. And I moved in like three years ago. And it's the first time for me in three years.

CO: Right. So what happened? Tell us about this crash.

MM: From what I know from the cops and the fire department, there was a car crossing like Lacasse and turning on St. Antoine. And the minivan took off his line and to take the last line and you speed up and he didn't see the other blue car and he crashed on it and then he bounced back into my wall.

CO: Where were you at the time?

MM: I was just on my way to go to work. I just dropped my kids when it happened. I left earlier than usual because my kids had to go to the botanical garden with the school. I thought let's go early because I don't want them to miss the bus or be in a rush. Usually at 7:30 or 7:35 the time of the incident, my kids are dressing up for school at this exact same spot.

CO: And it's your kitchen wall that they hit, right. So normally your kids would be sitting there having breakfast.

MM: Not sitting -- they're having breakfast in the dining room. But they get ready there. There's a bench where they put their shoes, bring their schoolbag, put their jacket on. So this is exactly the spot -- the bench was all broken and bricks flew through the dining room too. It was pretty messy.

CO: The car came right into your kitchen.

MM: Yeah. Well the bumper and the part of the hood.

CO: When you got that call and someone said there's a car in your kitchen -- I can see into your kitchen. What did you think?

MM: First of all I was thinking it was a joke at first. And then I said, no, it's not a joke. I was like starting to panic. I was crying. I was, oh my God! Oh my God! I couldn't stop thinking that usually we are there. I was trying to calm down. It was pretty hard.

CO: What did you see when you got home?

MM: Well, I saw the two crashed cars -- one van and one car. I saw that there was no ambulance or no one was injured. And so when I see the damages in my kitchen, it was like, I don't know...it's like a tornado was in my kitchen.

CO: What did your kids think when they saw the damage?

MM: Well they didn't see the damage -- they were at school. And I asked the school to not talk about it before the end of the day. I don't want them to be traumatized. So by the time they finish school, they already patched up the hole. They just saw the pictures on the Internet. But they were pretty shaken up. They're scared to sleep in their bedroom which is next to the kitchen. So they asked to sleep with me for now.

CO: You said the bench that they actually sit on to get ready for school is smashed up. Did they see that?

MM: They saw that I removed a part that was broken. "Mom, the bench is broke." And I said, yeah, I know -- like the car rammed through it. I don't think they realized that it could have been like their life -- that they were in danger. I didn't put the accent on it because I don't want them to be anxious to be at their home, you know?

CO: No kidding. How old are you kids?

MM: They're going to turn 9 and 10 next month.

CO: And now that you've learned that this the fourth time in six years a car has crashed into the apartment -- what are the authorities doing? What is the local government saying about this?

MM: Well, actually, a city inspector came. I don't know if the older tenants talked to the city inspector and ask for some measures. He didn't tell me. But for sure, for my kids, for my safety, for other people's safety too -- I ask the city to do something to slow down the traffic over there. I don't know. Maybe a stop sign between the two lights or a cement block in front of my house on the sidewalk or even metal poles. Something to stop a car that could crash again there.

CO: And how dangerous is that corner? The area around the front of your house.

MM: Well, it's pretty dangerous. Even the sidewalk is dangerous. Like a few times this month since the street turned to be only with one line, I saw some drivers driving two wheels on the sidewalk.

CO: Are you thinking about whether you can actually continue to live in that apartment?

MM: I will, because it's close to my work. It's close to the school. The kids have been there for three years. They have a lot of friends over here. And I really like my apartment because it's a little jewel in a big building. It's a big apartment. It is not expensive.

CO: They have to make it safer for you.

MM: Exactly. That's why I'm doing all these interviews.

CO: And structurally, is there a lot of damage to it? Is that wall safe?

MM: The fire department said that the structure is not instable. It's solid. But there is one of the metal pole in the corner that is moving. So in case something collapses, no one is allowed to go in the kitchen except for me.

CO: But for how long?

MM: Until the work starts. Even the basement. We're not going in the living room and our basement because the wall that was crashed, we don't see any cracks in the basement. But still, you know, something collapses you know it's the same wall. It's the foundation. So I don't want to take any chance so we're not using the living room either.

CO: Melissa, I'm glad at least that you and your kids are fine.

MM: I'm glad too.

CO: And thanks for speaking with us.

MM: No problem.

CH: Melissa Malo lives in Montreal's Saint Henri neighbourhood. We reached her at her home.

[Music]

Governor General's Fiction Award winner

Guest: Joan Thomas

CH: True story: Joan Thomas is 25,000 dollars richer today. Also a true story: the one her Governor General's Literary Award Winning novel is based on. Ms. Thomas was awarded the Governor General's Prize for fiction this morning for her novel "Five Wives." The book is inspired by a 1956 incident in which five evangelical Christian missionaries were killed by a group of Huaorani warriors in the rainforests of Ecuador. And as Ms. Thomas told Carol at an event on Sunday at the Toronto International Festival of Authors. That's a story she grew up with.

SOUNDCLIP

JOAN THOMAS: I knew this story very well as a young person growing up in an evangelical Christian church. These five missionary families went to Ecuador with the obsession, really, to take the gospel to a previously uncontacted indigenous nation. And it was, as you might have expected, it was a disaster both for the missionary men and for the indigenous people -- the Huaorani. But this story is incredibly mythologized in evangelical church circles. One of the missionary wives was a very fine writer, Elizabeth Elliott. And she wrote many books, but she wrote two memoirs about this incident and kind of gave it the shape that it has retained, which was that the men were led step by step by God who wanted to make martyrs of them. And it's a story that still has a lot of -- it's still extremely popular in certain circles. Elizabeth Elliott's first memoir has sold half a million copies. It's still in print. And I just became interested in revisiting it from a secular and from a contemporary point of view.

CO: But you had to live inside the heads of these women, all these people, but all of Mary Lou, Marge, Betty and Elizabeth and Rachael -- and get into their thoughts and what would motive motivate them, how they would make decisions, how they would react to things. What was it like to live inside their heads and live inside that evangelical commitment to the idea that everything is God's decision, everything is you don't know what it is, even the death of your husband is something that God wants -- how did you get into their heads?

JOAN THOMAS: Well, I had a fair degree of training as a young person -- I will say -- in the kinds of thinking that these women lived with. But, you know, I was drawn to this book for its politics, I think, and I stayed for its personalities because they became very individual to me. And I was amazed by that because when you read their memoirs, there's a sameness to the way they express themselves. You know, there's a certain kind of language that is expected and a certain absence of doubt. And I decided to give them the gift of giving them out, because I did not believe that they did not grieve their husbands, that they would not have felt doubt. And so my job was kind of to look at what was beneath those truisms like you know it was God's will or God is telling me to do it and to look for the emotions and the thoughts and the feelings that might be underneath those things.

CO: There is a great character you introduce and who actually is a real person because he is the man who did the life photo spread. And those of us who remember this photos. It was astonishing, wasn't it? To see those pictures of all those people. And this guy, Cornell Capa, who I didn't realize was the brother, Robert Capa. Both these men were really established photographers who did war footage, war shoots. Robert Capa died in Vietnam I believe. And so Cornell -- he's really useful to me because I needed someone grounded in reality to be meeting them and to be questioning where are these people coming from?

JOAN THOMAS: Yes, that's right. I mean, he's a secular Jew. He had zero understanding of their mindset when he went into it. And it's kind of audacious, in a sense to give him such an important chunk of the story as I did give him. But at that point, I felt exactly the same as the writer that we needed to just widen the lens a little bit and see this from a wider context. And I think probably, you know, it was a relief to me as a writer to move into that mindset, and it may be a relief to readers as well.

CO: What effect did the events that happened in Ecuador -- what effect did that have on evangelicals? You've met the evangelist movement and the missionaries who were at that time working everywhere.

JOAN THOMAS: It was just huge. There's estimates that thousands of missionaries were recruited through that incident because these men were always evoked as martyrs and that you know young people should be inspired to go on and take their place. And it was interesting I went to Ecuador twice to do research and it was interesting to talk to the missionaries in the mission stations that are mentioned in this book because the thinking has not profoundly changed. And so the Huaorani people, you know, everything changed for them with this intrusion. The oil companies took most of their traditional land. They were moved into a small protectorate. And, you know, a very sad story that we have heard many times. But the missionaries, even into contemporary times, their sense of mission with the Huaorani people remains largely unchanged. So, I mean one of the joys for me in researching it was to discover Huaorani activism because they are really at the forefront right now to protect chunks of Ecuador from the oil companies. They had a huge victory in courts lately. But the missionaries view this with skepticism. They still continue their mission largely as they did in the past.

CH: Joan Thomas speaking with Carol on Sunday about "Five Wives." This morning that book was awarded the 2019 Governor General's Literary Award for English language fiction. In the novel, Ms. Thomas writes from many perspectives, including that of Rachel Saint -- a single woman who is mocked by the other missionaries. In this passage, Rachel has just left the group's communal dining room feeling embarrassed and humiliated. Here's Joan Thomas reading from "Five Wives."

SOUNDCLIP

JOAN THOMAS: Such as Rachel's pain that she spends the next hour kneeling at the throne of God. She waits with a folded towel under her knees, pressing her face into the pillow. She can hear the others moving quietly below, but no one comes up the stairs to inquire as to her sudden exit. "You gave me victory over this" she says to the Lord. Just the other morning -- so what the tarnation is going on? It takes God a while to answer. "I'm not fond of lies," he finally says. There's the little matter of you converting Chief Trariri. Chief Trariri of the [inaudible] who had so raised her hopes six months ago, when he knelt with her in his hut on the banks of the river, and prayed in a proxima of emotion, clear evidence of guilt and the conviction of sin. And then, two days later, a terrible massacre took place upriver. When Chief Trariri returned to the settlement she went straight in and confronted him. Did you invite Jesus into your heart? He looked directly at her and said yes. But he didn't come. Anger rises like bilge water in her chest. For God to rebuke her with this and in any case, what is a lie? Sometimes the moment you imagined and long for the event that should by rights have transpired, that's where you're going to find the real truth. She sent this up to the Lord, but it's too subtle for him, and a long silence follows. And then she digs in. Consider my grievance against you, she cries. Marge! You seem to adore Marge. You've made her plump and happy, given her everything. You want truth? The plain truth is that my sister-in-law has created a full time job for herself as a brood mare. And now this Mary Lou person -- how can they even use the term missionary? So tell me why they are respected when I am not? Is this fair? Fair? God says -- it's not a word I recognize. Well, maybe you should enlighten me, Rachel rages silently her face pressed into the pillow. As to why you call single girls out to these stinking jungles, only to be sneered at by their own people. The danger and the loneliness. Don't you consider that enough? Having nobody to trade glances with at the supper table. Never loving hound on the nape of your neck. Is the work woman not worthy of her hire? Nothing comes back. She waits, but nothing comes back. Her feet have fallen asleep. They're dead from the ankles down. She calls hauls up and undress and gets into bed. Doors open and close in the hallway. A man's voice next door. And then a woman's. Ed and Mary Lou talking just too low for her to make out the words. She listens in vain for Jim. Her thoughts fall away. She starts to drift. Pictures crowd into her mind and transmogrified the way they will. Dolls and sparkling dresses in the alcoves of the cathedral. Angels or brides or the glory of the Lord. It was a virgin who bore our Lord, wasn't it? She's lying on her side and her shoulders cramping. She rolls over, wash back up to wakefulness, and there's the answer as vivid as if it were backlit. The oak in their green world faces turned imploringly towards her. A stained glass window with its pure and simple lines. A private shrine to hope.

CH: That's Joan Thomas reading from her Governor General's Literary Award Winning novel "Five Wives."

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CO: We are at the end of this edition of As It Happens. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One. And if you want to listen to our program live or on demand anytime, make sure you download the CBC Listen app. I'm Carol Off. Thanks for listening.

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October 29, 2019 Episode Transcript

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