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The AIH Transcript for October 25, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Nana aba Duncan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

NANA ABA DUNCAN: Good evening. I'm Nana aba Duncan. This is As It Happens.

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ND: Tonight...

CO: Captive audience. When the European Parliament gave a Uighur scholar its top prize for human rights, it alerted the world to his situation that China had sentenced him to life in prison five years ago.

ND: Objective lesson. A Turkish MP says her country's military operation is about targeting terrorists, not civilians, and that it's preposterous to accuse the country of ethnic cleansing -- after Syrian Kurds leave the country in droves.

CO: Pushing back. People with disabilities are hoping the slogan "Just ask, don't grab" will take hold -- so strangers will stop taking hold of them or their wheelchairs without asking first.

ND: The wind beneath his wingers. A feature interview with the man who wrote the book on hockey -- legendary coach Scotty Bowman -- and the man who wrote the book on Scotty Bowman, Ken Dryden.

CO: Bumper cropped. When the powers-that-be in Manitoba recalled Bruce Spence's license plate for being offensive, they didn't expect him to be so passionate about stepping up for the plate.

ND: And all things must pass. Our guest based a website on videos of trucks being damaged by a low bridge in North Carolina, but now that it's being raised he'll have to get over the fact that they'll be able to get under. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that helps this decision will prove completely wreck-less.

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Part 1: Disability advocate says #JustAskDontGrab highlights how often strangers 'help' without consent

Uighur award

Guests: Phil Bennion

ND: Ilham Tohti could not be present when the European Parliament made its announcement yesterday that it was honoring Mr. Tohti with the Sakharov Prize, its top prize for human rights. But in that announcement, the parliament's president had a message for China: release Mr. Tohti from prison and respect minority rights in the country. Mr. Tohti is a Uighur academic who was jailed for life in 2014. Phil Bennion is a member of the European Parliament from the UK. We reached him in Athens.

CO: Mr. Bennion do you have any idea if Mr. Tohti even knows he's been awarded this human rights prize?

PHIL BENNION: My suspicion is that he doesn't because he was imprisoned in 2014 -- he was given life imprisonment. Certainly when we were in contact with his family in 2017, they were still seeing him. But we know that he's not been allowed family visits for the last two and a half years. So the likelihood is that he has absolutely no idea that he's been awarded this prize.

CO: Why was it important for you to see that Ilham Tohti was awarded the Sakharov Prize?

PB: Our view is that the current situation in Xinjiang where we have somewhere estimates of around one million people in internment camps -- in these re-education camps -- I mean, in our view that's one of the, currently, the worst human rights abuses going on in the world at the moment. Professor Tohti -- he's an emblematic representative of the Uighur people and their fight for at least recognition within China as having a separate identity.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about Mr. Tohti and why he is behind bars?

PB: He was a professor at a prestigious university. He's an ethnic Uighur -- which is the Turkic Muslim peoples from Xinjiang province. He was working through his website and through other means to raise the issue of this Uighur identity, but also trying to improve relations between Han Chinese and the Uighur population. And I think he had made some comments that the Chinese repression of this Uighur identity had some effect on certain radical groups. And the Chinese took this as been support for terrorist groups and labeled him a separatist. And he has always denied being a separatist. So he was actually tried for the crime of being a separatist, which of course I don't think hardly anywhere in the world is a crime. And after a two-day trial, he was given a life sentence.

CO: Its statement to Reuters -- China's foreign ministry called Mr. Tohti a criminal who was sentenced in accordance with the law by a Chinese court. And the statement said that they hope that all sides, including the European Union I presume, respect China's internal affairs and judicial sovereignty and inflate, quote, "the arrogance of terrorists." What do you say to that?

PB: The Chinese embassy in London actually arranged a meeting with me to give me exactly the same message. And this is not an unexpected response. There is nothing that Mr. Tohti has done that were to in both normal societies be considered criminal. He's, in my view and in the view of the European Parliament, a fighter for human rights and for freedom of speech.

CO: And we'll just point out when you say fighting for those ideas -- never physically. He has been a man who has been entirely dedicated to this struggle in writing and in dialog. Is that right?

PB: Yes, that's absolutely right. He's a well-respected academic. Not a radical troublemaker. But a very quietly spoken intellectual with a broad respect across the international community.

CO: The previous winners of the Sakharov Prize include Malala Yousafzai and also well known to us, the two Yazidi women who had escaped from the Islamic State and were so out-spoken. What is the message that you hope giving the award to Mr. Tohti -- this Uighur academic -- what is the message you hope the European Parliament is sending to China?

PB: It's very clear that we are concerned that China is moving its sort of paradigm, if you like. I think under Xi Jinping, in the initial years, it was taking a more rules-based approach. And the European Parliament and the European community generally, I think we are very very concerned that China sticks to the rules-based order. With Chinese investments around the world we feel that the Chinese really have an interest in the preservation of the rules-based order. And what we are trying to do is [inaudible] that point to them. So it's not just with the Uighurs -- we have the problems with the Hong Kong, the pressure that they're putting on Taiwan. And we are trying to talk to them. I mean I have had very very good conversations with the Chinese diplomats. And what we are trying to say to them, look you know we can be your partners in this rules-based order, we're not asking you to simply abandon your political system, but we are just asking you to respect human rights and to engage in conversation with us in Europe because we have common interests.

CO: Has Mr. Tohti's family been told and will they possibly attend the ceremony in Strasbourg?

PB: Yes -- his daughter is aware. I'm not sure if his wife yet knows. But his daughter, when he was imprisonment, was actually an overseas student. She has already been invited to Strasbourg to the awards ceremony. We haven't had a reply yet. But we're also in contact, and we've been in long term contact, with the Uighur community in Europe -- with representatives of the Uighur community in Europe.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. I understand the award is in December. We'll be watching for that. Mr. Bennion thank you.

PB: That's right. Thank you very much.

ND: That was Member of the European Parliament Phil Bennion in Athens.

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Roger Grimes

ND: This summer 16-year-old climate activists Greta Thunberg delivered a message shortly after arriving in New York. She said, "Our war on nature must end." At the time, she had just finished a 5,000-kilometre journey by sailboat across the Atlantic Ocean. And today, Ms. Thunberg is on the shores of the Pacific, where she attended a student led climate rally in front of the Vancouver Art Gallery. But for some captains of the oil and gas industry, the war being waged isn't so much against nature, but against the dire messaging from Ms. Thunberg and other climate activists. And Roger Grimes warns the industry is in danger of losing that war of words. Mr. Grimes is the former premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. Today, he heads the Canada Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board. Yesterday, he addressed a group of industry representatives in Botwood, Newfoundland. Here's some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

ROGER GRIMES: Anyone in this room that hasn't heard the name Greta Thunberg -- she's 16 by the way. 16-years-old. She's going to speak in -- where? Vancouver today? She's from Sweden. She's been all over the world. Been to the United Nations. Speaks very passionately. And she's convinced that leaders like me in the 20 years that I was at it made some decisions that have endangered the very planet on which she lives. And that somebody else better start doing things a bit differently or there is not going to be a similar type of planet for her to grow up in -- and my granddaughter, who's 8, to grow up in. You know so they bring a message. And if it's just that message getting out there, then you'll get politicians starting to respond to it depending how much of a reaction they get. And remember this, she's 16. Give her 20 years, she's going to be in this room. 20 years is a short time in this industry. 20 years she'll be in this room. Someone just like her will sit in this room and be in a leadership role. And if somebody hasn't convinced them that the proposition doesn't have to be develop oil and gas or save the environment, but instead the proposition can be continued to develop oil and gas and save the environment. That's where the message has to be. And that's my plea to the leaders today, is to reach out to those leaders of tomorrow and engage on that basis. Don't lose the ground to people who want to say, if you keep doing this you're going to destroy the planet.

ND: That was former Newfoundland and Labrador premier Roger Grimes addressing oil industry representatives yesterday in Botwood, Newfoundland.

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Disability consent

Guest: Bronwyn Berg

ND: Just ask, don't grab. That's a hashtag gaining momentum, especially among people with disabilities. They're sharing their stories of people grabbing them -- often while trying to help -- without talking to them first. And some of these people have been taking creative measures far beyond tweeting to stop it. Bronwyn Berg is a disability advocate who uses a wheelchair. We reached her in Chemainus on Vancouver Island, British Columbia.

CO: Bronwyn what have you done to your wheelchair to stop people from grabbing it?

BRONWYN BERG: Well, my partner designed spikes to put on the wheelchair handle to deter kidnapers -- we call them -- or grabbers. And it has made a huge difference to being out in the world.

CO: And so spikes -- as in a hand piercing and damaging thing?

BB: No. They wouldn't pierce anyone's skin or cause injury. It's just enough to kind of go, 'ouch!' It's enough to just make someone uncomfortable -- enough to not want to grab.

CO: Why did you have your mate put spikes on the handles of your wheelchair?

BB: Well, it was his idea because after he had a particularly traumatic instance of somebody grabbing my wheelchair from behind that I didn't hear them approaching. And they began to push me. They did not ask if I needed help. They didn't even ask where I was planning on going. And I asked him to stop. You know I did the, "No, no, no, no." You know kind of that vulnerable pleading in the beginning. And then I started screaming for someone to stop him. I was screaming for help. Everyone just looked away from me. They looked at their phones. And then finally, when my screams got loud enough it scared him off and he let go of my chair. And then I couldn't get to safety because all the stores were inaccessible which you know really for the first time made me think that inaccessibility is actually dangerous. I mean the first thing that we tell women in danger is to get to a safe place and there was no safe place for me to get to.

CO: What were his motives of pushing your chair?

BB: I have no way of knowing. You know was he potentially going to assault me? We know that the rates of sexual assault among disabled women is double that of non-disabled women. Was he going to rob me? I have no way of knowing. It definitely wasn't a question of 'do you need help?' It was a very scary incident. I ended up being okay of course. But I found that when I was out in public after that incident I became very anxious and almost hyper alert of you know who's behind me, somebody was approaching who might try to grab me or push me. But beyond that -- you know I've had my wheelchair grabbed a few times now without asking for various reasons. That was the only incident that I felt was scary -- that I felt that I was in danger.

CO: What's it like though to have somebody grab your chair without telling you or asking you? What effect does that have on you? Can you compare it to something?

BB: Well you've completely lost control of your body. You know my wheelchair is an extension of my body. So the only thing I could maybe compare it to is somebody non-disabled or a non-wheelchair user walking down the street and somebody picking them up and grabbing them, you know, and running off. Yeah -- I can't run away in these situations. I can't even really fight them off because I can't reach them. So it's just a complete loss of control and it's a very vulnerable position to be in.

CO: This obviously happens often enough that there's a hashtag "Just ask, don't grab." So how often does this happen to people?

BB: Quite often. And one thing that's important about Amy Kavanagh's campaign "Just ask, don't grab" is that it happens to blind women a lot. It's not just wheelchair users -- and not just blind women, but it happens to men as well. But it happens to women more often. And, you know, blind people are forced to cross the street against their will without anyone asking where they're going. And I guess what it comes from can be a misguided sense of I'm going to do a good deed. You know, I'm going to help this poor, pitiful person and do this good deed for them.

CO: Well, it's a boy scout thing, isn't it? It's a boy scout -- you get a badge if you do that. So people do think perhaps...

BB: I never thought of that. But yes, absolutely. And there definitely seems to be this sense that I'm doing a good deed and don't tarnish my halo. You know what I'm not against help. But you need to ask if I need it. Because what looks to you or to a person you know that this woman is in a wheelchair and maybe she's going a little slow or maybe she's going up a hill -- well I also need to go up hills to build up my arm muscles. So the question just needs to be, 'Do you need help?' And give me the freedom to say yes or no. And often we're met with defensiveness when we say no.

CO: But lots of people do want to help. They see someone and they think well what can I do? If I were in a chair, would I want someone? And obviously project ourselves on others quite a bit. So unlike that man who just pushed you where he wanted to go -- lots of people probably think they are helping you.

BB: Right. And that's why they just need to ask first. I have been helped. I have been struggling up hills where somebody has approached me and said, you know, excuse me, but do you need help? And I'll say, yes, thank you. And I always thank them for asking first, because it could actually put us in danger. You know, fingers can get broken. For example, if somebody grabs me quickly, it snaps my neck. But again, the only message really is to just as Amy Kavanagh's hashtag "Just ask, don't grab." You know, just ask.

CO: Now, since you put these spikes on, has it made it difficult for even those you want to help? Can they handle your chair?

BB: No. When I'm out in public and I have the spikes on, nobody's able to help me.

CO: Or you can take them off -- you don't have to have them on all time.

BB: No. I can take them off, but it does take a few minutes. So it's not a thing that I can just quickly whip them off and say here you can help me. So I definitely know that I am independent when I go out with these. That I'm on my own. But to me there's just such peace of mind. I feel so much safer in the world. I'm not, you know, constantly kind of looking behind me and worrying about it. But it just shows what an issue it is for us wheelchair users that we have to be vigilant about this and feel in danger or feel just like our autonomy is taken from us.

CO: Well, this is certainly for all people, including myself, is very instructive. And I really appreciate you telling it to us. Bronwyn thank you.

BB: No problem.

ND: Bronwyn Berg is a disability advocate who attached spikes to her wheelchair to prevent people from grabbing her or her chair without consent. We reached her in Chemainus on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. If you want to read more or see those spikes we're talking about go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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Can opener overpass

Guest: Jurgen Henn

ND: In business, low overhead is a good thing. But if you're driving a truck through an underpass, it's really not. It's been a major problem at the so-called "can opener" bridge in Durham, North Carolina. The 11-foot-8-inch bridge, formally called the Norfolk Southern-Gregson Street Overpass, is known for catching tractor-trailer drivers unawares. And for the past decade, Jurgen Henn has been catching all the crashes, clips, and near-misses on video and posting them on his website: 11foot8.com. He could soon run out of content though because the clearance height for "can opener" bridge is finally set to be raised. We reached Jurgen Henn in Durham.

CO: Jurgen what does this "can opener" overpass do that causes so much grief for truck drivers?

JURGEN HENN: Well the "can opener" just kind of sits there waiting with very low clearance, much lower than many truck drivers seem to expect, and where they don't pay attention the "can opener" sits there to pounce on them and take off part of the roof or all of it.

CO: Yikes. And you have documented this. I've seen a compilation reel of your videos. You've documented more than 100 of these truck "can opening" sessions. It's quite extraordinary. Why did you start to actually film at the bridge?

JH: In the beginning, it was just mere curiosity. I work in the building right next to the "can opener." And we often hear the crash and then see the aftermath. And we were wondering just how often that really happens and what it actually looks like when it happens. So in 2008, I decided to install a webcam just outside the building and start recording the traffic. And soon enough, I caught one of the trucks getting snarled by the bridge.

CO: How often does it happen?

JH: Well, on average now, over 10 years, it's a little bit more than once a month.

CO: Oh dear. Just describe what happens in this aftermath that you're referring to.

JH: Well, very often the impact takes off part of the roof. So there's debris scattered all over the road. Often that truck just gets kind of stuck under the crash beam in front of the bridge that protects the bridge from the impact. And usually there's a pretty distraught truck driver pacing on the sidewalk, trying to figure out what to do next. If the driver is lucky, they can let air out of the tires to lower the truck a little bit. But very often they have to bring in some heavy equipment to kind of yank the truck back out from under the bridge.

CO: And some of the trucks that you filmed, the top just gets sheared right off like it's been peeled like a can opener and the truck actually clears the bridge minus the roof of the truck, right?

JH: That does happen sometimes. Yes. Especially when the truck is going very fast -- faster than the speed limit. Sometimes you can see the roof sort of flapping behind the truck as it comes to a stop.

CO: Has anyone ever been injured?

JH: As far as I know, they've only been minor injuries. I had to call 911 once to get an ambulance because one of the passengers in the truck was not buckled in and hit his forehead against the windshield and probably got a concussion. Other than that, I've heard of somebody breaking a leg. So all in all, nothing that won't heal.

CO: So this bridge -- the clearance is 11-feet-8-inches, which is too short for a lot of these...well not even big transports, but a lot of transports. And so are there no warnings? Do they not know this is coming up?

JH: Oh there are plenty of warnings. But three blocks ahead of the bridge, there are the regular low clearance warning signs. And then right in front of the bridge, there is basically a laser beam that will detect over-height vehicles and start a warning signal right in front of the bridge that flashes brightly 'over-height must turn.' The traffic lights will turn red at the intersection, stopping all traffic for about 50 seconds. And it's up to the driver to make the right decision. But one would assume that most drivers are warned at that point of the obstacle.

CO: You would think. And there is also what I've seen in your video that they can turn off. There's not like there are no options there. They don't have to backup. They can actually turn, right?

JH: That is correct. There is an intersection directly in front of the bridge, and it's not that difficult to either make a right or a left turn to avoid the problem.

CO: What's the worst collision you've ever seen?

JH: It was a few months ago, actually. A semi truck hit the bridge at full speed and peeled off most of the roof. That's pretty rare and it was pretty spectacular.

CO: This is a railway bridge, right? So the company that owns the bridge is now actually going to do -- I guess what they haven't done for all these decades, which is to actually raise the clearance of the bridge. So is that the solution? Is that going to be the end of this whole scene?

JH: I think it's going to be a significant improvement. If you look at the highlights reel you can see that a lot of the trucks are just a little bit too tall for the current "can opener." So an additional eight inches is going to allow these trucks to pass safely. So the standard size box trucks should fit now -- once that work is done. I think that's going to be a big improvement.

CO: Do you think people in your neighbourhood will miss this spectacle? I mean I understand you have T-shirts commemorating the overpass. There is even a mini golf course. So it's a bit of a character in your neighbourhood, isn't it?

JH: Yes. Over the years the bridge has definitely become a bit of a local character. And I saw that some people actually put down flowers in front of the bridge this morning. So I do believe some people will really miss that character. But in the end, I think safety is probably the biggest priority. And we can always remember it fondly. If you go to 11foot8.com that website will remain a memorial to the old meaner "can opener." And if anything new happens, I'll post it.

CO: You're going to keep your cameras running?

JH: For sure. It's a big part of the project.

CO: For sure. Jurgen I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you. It's a good story.

JH: Thank you. I appreciate it.

ND: Jurgen Henn operates the website "11foot8 videos." We reached him in Durham, North Carolina. And we've posted some of those videos on our site: cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 2: Turkey government

Turkey government

Guest: Rumeysa Kadak

ND: US President Donald Trump says the five-day cease-fire between Turkey and Kurdish-led forces is now permanent. But reports from the ground tell a different story. Kurdish-led forces accused Turkey of targeting three villages. And Turkey blamed the Kurds for firing on their forces. One thing is for sure, it's had a devastating effect on civilians. The UN says nearly 180,000 people have fled the area. And estimates vary but the Kurdish Red Crescent says some 235 civilians have been killed, including 22 children. But Turkey says it's simply trying to defend the security of its border. Rumeysa Kadak is a Turkish MP for the ruling AK Party. We reached her in Istanbul.

CO: Ms. Kadak has Turkey's military operation in north-eastern Syria been worth it do you think?

RUMEYSA KADAK: Hello, Carol. Thank you for having me firstly. So we have to state that the footage actually was not really right. So Turkey did not attack -- initiate any attack unless there was an attack coming from the other side. We are very clear when it comes to that.

CO: Well, but I think what we're talking about here is the attack on civilians. You have...

RK: That is not true.

CO: Well, but civilians have died. You're denying what the UN says that nearly 200,000 people have fled -- and that there are hundreds, according to the Red Crescent Society, 235 civilians at least killed, including two dozen children. You deny that?

RK: Well, on the contrary, the whole operation that we are conducting against terrorists PKK is actually for civilians, Carol. So this information is the propaganda spread by terrorist PKK which is a terrorist organization not only in the eye of a turkey, but also in eye of NATO and in the eye of Canada too. So to give some perspective to our Canadian audience, the number of ethnic Kurdish refugees that we have accepted from Syria is actually 10 times more than what Canada accepted in. And I think we have been very clear about...

CO: We know all that Ms. Kadak. We are talking about is a military operation of recent weeks. And we have seen the footage. We have seen people being forced out. We have reports from objective reporters who are at the border seeing the people who are crossing or trying to cross into Iraq, trying to escape into Kurdish-held areas because they're fleeing for their lives. They are terrified. They are being killed. They're being driven out.

RK: Look, look, let's make it clear. First of all, most of the footage -- it actually comes from terrorists PKK. And we have been very transparent. And the areas actually they should have been emptied because the time has passed -- I'm sure, you know, the agreement that we had with the United States. And if there are any clashes happening it's because of the self-defense. But let me be clear, there is no clashes happening against civilians. We are very really clear. And we have stated so many times that when it comes to civilians. It's actually terrorists PKK.

CO: Ms. Kadak airstrikes -- PKK is not having airstrikes. Turkey has a very large military power. It has the ability to hit from the air. You have been striking civilian areas, whether your targets are civilian or not, civilians have been hurt. And the shelling -- you're saying that this hasn't happened in civilian areas?

RK: No, this is not true. Turkey has been very clear that this is not against civilians. We are doing this operation in order to save civilians in Syria. There are so many civilians whose lives are in danger. And we have two objectives from the very beginning of this operation. One is to secure our borders. We have more than 700 attacks coming from the other side of the border in the last two years. So our borders is also on the [inaudible] of NATO. We are doing this operation in order to secure borders from the terrorist PKK. And the second objective of ours is actually to secure a safe zone where millions of civilians in Syria will actually have a place, safe place, to go to.

CO: I'd like to know who it is that you think could be safe there. Your president, Mr. Erdogan, said himself this week that this land, the land in that area is not suitable for Kurds because it's flat desert land and that Arabs would be better suited to that area. Are you attempting to change the demographic by force?

RK: That is not true. PKK is the only force that actually changed the demographics in the region. We had two operations in the past. The operation that we had in Afrin and the operation we had in Jarabulus. And we have been very actually careful when it comes to demographics. We respect the integrity of Syria. And let's not forget, Turkey is the only country that took the initiative for civilians in Syria.

CO: Ms. Kadak people are fleeing.

RK: We have more than 4 million refugees in Turkey. And there is no country in the world that took this much initiative for civilians in Syria.

CO: You're being accused of ethnic cleansing because of the...

RK: That is not acceptable.

CO: No -- your government has said that it wants...excuse me for a second. Your government has said it wants to open that space for refugees who are in your country. And your president has said that the Kurds are not suited to be there. They are leaving in droves. Trying to change a demographic by force amounts to ethnic cleansing. Does it not?

RK: I think we have to make something very clear right now. This operation is not against Kurdish people. This operation is carried out against terrorists PKK which does not represent Kurdish people at all. And in fact, they bring suffering to Kurdish families, kidnaping their children, forcing them to fight at the age of six, seven, and eight. And they use soldiers, child soldiers -- and this has been actually reported by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and UN. So when it comes to Kurdish people, we have 400,000 Kurdish people in our country who fled the war happening in Syria and the oppression of PKK. And let’s make it clear -- the PKK does not represent Kurdish people.

CO: Sorry in the limited time we have, I want to ask you about your Turkish-backed militias who have been assisting your forces, who have actually made videos of themselves executing civilians and put some of them bound. And one of them being a woman, a Kurdish female politician called a pig and later killed. So what responsibility do you take for the Turkish-backed militias who are assisting your forces?

RK: Okay when it comes to civilians, we have been very clear from the very start of this operation. So we say we're against every war crimes, we are against every human rights violation -- no matter who is doing that. And you're actually talking about Free Syrian Army who was formally trained by United States.

CO: No -- we're talking about your own forces Ms. Kadak. Sorry.

RK: I'm sure you have a misunderstanding. We are working on the ground with Free Syrian Army, who was formally trained by United States and supported by the West. I think you have a misunderstanding on that point. And they're the only forces that we work with. And they're the only forces which are 100 percent Syrian army and the local people. And they lost thousands of its troops fighting against ISIS. And now they actually set a committee in order to investigate war crimes. And we have always stated we are always against war crimes. But let's also mention that PKK is actually the one committing war crimes. They have prosecuted Christians, Assyrians. They have turned children into suicide bombers. This is unacceptable. They're not different than ISIS. And we have been very clear that we should operate against this terrorist organization with our allies. We'll should all come together.

CO: Sorry. We'll have to leave it there. Sorry to interrupt you because we have another interview coming up. But thank you so much.

RK: All right. Thank you.

ND: Rumeysa Kadak is a Turkish MP with the ruling AK Party. We reached her in Istanbul.

[Music]

Turkey critic

Guest: Khabat Abbas

ND: Khabat Abbas is in the very part of northeastern Syria we've been talking about. She's a Syrian-Kurdish journalist who lives in the border city of Qamishli. We reached her there.

CO: Khabat Turkey says this operation is not about targeting people like you, Kurds who are living in this area. It says this is about targeting terrorists. What do you say to that?

KHABAT ABBAS: Actually, the first day when this shelling started, when this operation started, it targeted the civilians, as a result the men statistics of the injuries and the dead people are civilians more than the military forces. Even the first day I was in Serekaniya and the shelling started -- it attack by using the air strike and warplanes. It was a civilian. I came to Qamishli at the same night. And I arrived at the first victims of that shelling of Qamishli city. It was a Syriac family -- Christian. The next days it was a child -- 7-years-old, Sara -- she lost one of her feet. So all the victims of this war or this operation that they are talking about basically it's the civilians.

CO: But Turkey is saying that this military operation, the purpose is to create a safe zone, to maintain security for Turkey along the border against the forces, Kurdish forces, who have been fighting with Turkey. I mean, is that not a fair objective on the part of Turkey?

KA: Actually the safe zone that the turkey -- we're talking about, if they are meaning the area which is all along the border of the Turkish-Syrian border, they are living in a very secure and safe and stability lives after the defeat of ISIS by the SDF. And the population started to rebuild their lives and reconstruct their lives after the war -- after all this years of the war. There is a government. There is all the institutions -- the municipalities. It was going good. So the safe zone that the Turkey wanted to implement -- right now there is no civilian left there. Everyone have been displaced. Also, many of the casualty of the civilian have been there in the safe zone. So I mean, it's not safe for anyone. So which kind of safety are we talking about it? And in a way, it's a kind of the ethnic cleansing there.

CO: When you say ethnic cleansing -- there are many sources who are accusing Turkey of committing ethnic cleansing in northern Syria, that trying to push the Kurds out and to change the demographic by putting a different population in there. Turkey is strenuously denying this, in fact, threatening legal action against journalists who even say that. Why are you saying that you believe it to be ethnic cleansing?

KA: Because the groups and the refugees that the Turkish wanted to transport them to this area, they are not belonging to this area. And the profile of those people are in a way radical Muslims who all have been collected from different areas, from Syria, from Ghouta, from Idlib, Hama and different area -- and have been located in Turkey. And they wanted to transport them. And this is very serious risk on the court. Not only that now the fighters who are fighting in the proxies for Turkey -- they already started to implementing a war crimes against the Kurds on the ground. What they had done, they were like you making a checkpoint and selecting the Kurd people. And when they select them, they started to execute them.

CO: When we've covered that -- there was one very respected female politician who is believed to have been executed in this style. When you say "they" -- when you say "them" -- you mean these militias that are backed by Turkey who are operating in the region? Because those are the forces on the ground, right?

KA: Yes.

CO: And these are the people who are perpetrating these alleged crimes as you have seen them, right?

KA: Exactly. Because when first those forces they came -- it's not about even like...you know, they just wanted to make this safe zone in the north of Syria. The main operation of the Turkey against the system in Rojava, it's against the system of safe [inaudible] it is against the -- revolution which have been implemented.

CO: You have lived through the Syrian civil war. This has been going on since 2011. Have you ever considered leaving home before? Have you ever considered that you had to get out of your country?

KA: No, never. Syria it's our country. And whenever all this war started, we said we are ready in order to defeat -- our alliance and our countries.

CO: How afraid are you?

KA: This has been very weird. I don't know how to use the weapon. I never get the training for a weapon. But I was looking for a solution -- if anything happened, if these militias came close to us, to kill myself, but to not be in the hands of those barbarians. So I prefer to be killed.

CO: Is there a way for you to get out of the area before those forces arrive?

KA: Almost all the journalists -- foreign journalists on the ground, they left. They're in north-east of Syria. So what happened for me -- there is a gap. There is a gap of the media here. If there is no one to cover the events on the ground, maybe there will be genocide, maybe there will be massacre and no one will cover it.

CO: Khabat it sounds like you have a very very difficult time ahead of you if you want to stay there and bear witness. I urge you to be careful. And I thank you for speaking with us.

KA: Thank you.

ND: Khabat Abbas is a Syrian-Kurdish journalist who lives in Qamishli, north-eastern Syria. We reached her there.

[Music]

Elijah Cummings

ND: He was a champion of his city and his community. And today at his funeral, long-time Baltimore Congressman Elijah Cummings was also remembered as a fierce champion of the truth. Mr. Cummings died last week after longstanding health problems. He was 68-years-old. And today, friends and family paid tribute to the late congressman, as did a host of political dignitaries. Among them, former U.S. President Barack Obama. Here's part of what he had to say for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

BARACK OBAMA: It's been remarked that Elijah was a kind man. I tell my daughters -- and I have to say, listening to Elijah's daughter speak, that got me choked up. I'm sure those of you who have sons feel the same way, but there's something about daughters and their father. And I was thinking I'd want my daughters to know how much I love them, but I'd also want them to know that being a strong man includes being kind. That there's nothing weak about kindness and compassion. There's nothing weak about looking out for others. There's nothing weak about being honorable. You're not a sucker to have integrity and to treat others with respect. I was sitting here and I was just noticing the Honorable Elijah E. Cummings. And, you know, this is a title that we confer on all kinds of people who get elected to public office. We're supposed to introduce them as honorable. But Elijah Cummings was honorable before he was elected office. There's a difference.

ND: That's former U.S. President Barack Obama, one of several people who spoke today in Baltimore at the funeral of Congressman Elijah Cummings.

[Music]

Sussane Rust

ND: The Attorneys General of New York and Massachusetts are suing oil and gas giant Exxon Mobil -- for allegedly misleading investors about the risks it knew were associated with climate change. Both suits deal with allegations that came to light back in 2015 -- when journalists discovered that Exxon was publicly downplaying the science of climate change while privately researching how it could affect the bottom line. At the time, we spoke with L.A. Times investigative reporter Sussane Rust.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSSANE RUST: Early stuff from the 1980s shows that they realized that climate change was a real phenomenon. That they understood there was scientific consensus. And then we found in the early 1990s that they were actually using these models internally to project out on their own business operations. So, again, while they were saying no big deal here, don't believe any of these projections -- they were actually using those projections internally to sort of figure out how to build their own infrastructure and how to harden it.

ND: That's L.A. Times investigative reporter Sussane Rust speaking to As It Happens in 2015. This week, New York and Massachusetts have announced they're taking Exxon Mobile to court for misleading investors about climate change related risks.

[Music]

Bruce Spence

ND: In February, a Winnipeg man named Bruce Spence got a letter from Manitoba Public Insurance, or MPI. It was about his customized license plate, which he'd had on his car for about seven years. The letter read Your slogan NDN Car has been identified in our review as phrases or innuendos that may be considered offensive." Mr. Spence didn't just find the grammar of that garbled sentence confusing. He also found the message confusing because he's Indigenous and as he told APTN at the time, I didn't know how it could be offensive. Everybody in Indian Country knows that song. He meant the song "NDN Kars" which is read Indian Cars by Anishnaabe artist Keith Secola. It's an anthem about driving to a pow-wow in a beat-up car. An anthem the person who complained about Mr. Spence's license plate was not familiar with. Mr. Spence explained that to Manitoba Public Insurance. The agency did not get it. So in February, it informed him his plate was being recalled. But Bruce Spence didn't believe his fender was an offender. So he filed a legal challenge. And in the meantime, MPI read the letters he'd sent in which he gave a thorough explanation of the significance of NDN Car. It also contacted the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to ask whether NDN was offensive. And finally, it relented. It gave Mr. Spence his plate back. He believes that's a victory for, quote, "the right to say reasonable things in public." And now that significant slogan will adorn his car forever. Which is a relief for Bruce Spence because he's got a lot on his plate.

[Music]

Part 3: How Ken Dryden turned Scotty Bowman into an NHL coach again

Feature: Scotty Bowman & Ken Dryden

Guest: Scotty Bowman & Ken Dryden

ND: Like many Canadian boys of the time, Scotty Bowman lived and breathed hockey -- playing in the streets, back alleys, and local rinks. His dreams of playing the NHL were dashed when he suffered a fractured skull at the age of 18. But that wasn't the end of his hockey career. It was just the beginning. Over the years, Scotty Bowman spent countless hours traveling to small town rinks as a coach and scout, working his way up the ranks. The results are undeniable. In 1973, Mr. Bowman won his first Stanley Cup as coach of the Montreal Canadiens. And over the next three decades he would win eight more -- making him the winningest NHL coach of all time. A new book documents the 86-year-old's historic hockey career, which continues today. It's called "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And it's written by someone who had an up-close view of his hockey life, his former Montreal Canadiens goaltender, Ken Dryden. Mr. Dryden and Mr. Bowman joined Carol in the As It Happens studio to talk about life behind the bench and on the ice.

CO: Wow! I can't believe I'm sitting here in the As It Happens studio with two legends -- Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden. Welcome to this show and to the studio.

BOTH: [Both say thanks]

CO: I have to say, Scotty, you look terrific. And Ken you look the same. I mean, you've had all these careers. I just learned now you hosted As It Happens.

KEN DRYDEN: Yeah, I think I was two or three nights and it was during the time of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

CO: We must have had to bring you in for that for some mysterious reason.

KD: Yeah. I don't know. I mean I enjoyed doing it. I'm not sure the audience enjoyed it. But anyway.

CO: But then you were a lawyer. You were an MP. You were a cabinet minister. You've written books. And there is that goalie thing I guess you did at some point, right, sort of way back.

KD: Well, it was pretty nice to do it with the other person across the table from you. And when you have the best coach and surrounded by the best players, it's pretty nice to be a goalie.

CO: But you were a great goalie. And we all know that. Scotty knows that. I want to begin by taking you and our listeners back to Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup finals.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd cheering]

ANNOUNCER 1: Here come the Hurricanes -- the shot...

ANNOUNCER 2: Deflected wide of the net. Shanahan. Empty net. Scores! Shanahan does it!

[Crowd cheers loudly]

CO: Wow. The empty neter at Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup. What's it like for you to hear that again 17-years-later?

SCOTTY BOWMAN: It's still the same. You know, when you're nursing a one goal lead and you're in the Stanley Cup finals and you can think of the ending, but that empty net goal, I think there was a half a minute to go so that was probably the biggest the relief you ever had that year. Because I knew that I was not going to be coaching after the season and to go out and have the team win the Stanley Cup it makes it a lot easier.

CO: Yeah, it's just a very very exciting moment. And you know, Scotty Bowman nine Stanley Cups coach.14 Stanley Cups would include your stint in management. And we could just keep giving the numbers for how many things you have done which makes you the greatest hockey coach ever. And that's why I think Ken Dryden -- you wanted to write this book about Scotty Bowman. Was it the numbers? Was it the stats? Or was it something else that led you Ken?

KD: It was that. But it was also -- I knew that Scotty had lived a hockey life that was absolutely unlike anyone else ever had and ever will again. Born in Verdun in 1933, started listening to games on radio. Then when he was recruited to play for a minor hockey team sponsored by the Montreal Canadiens, the big perk was to get a standing room pass to the Forum. And so from say, 1947 or so on Saturday nights, I mean you take the 58 bus up to the Forum, you watch the games and you see "The Rocket" in his prime. You see the Detroit Red Wings starting to become great. You see Gordie Howe at age 17. Then it's Ted Lindsay. And Red Kelly. And see Terry Sawchuk emerge. And the first really great team in NHL history, the Detroit Red Wings -- Scotty's watching it. Then he starts to get more involved with the Canadiens. And he's there watching a team that still has the NHL record of winning five cups in a row from 1956 until 1960. And he's there. After that you know, he's there. He's there. He's there. And he's not only there, he's behind the bench. He's in the dressing room. He's coaching the best. He's coaching against the best. Year after year after year and right up to the present where his son, Stan, is a two-time Stanley Cup winning general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. And Scotty is an advisor there. He watches and he never stops watching and he never stops learning. That's why.

CO: And what's so interesting Scotty -- your face as Ken gives that list of all the reasons why you became so legendary, because you watched...and you didn't just watched like we watch. You studied it, didn't you? You studied all those players. When you were in the Forum -- even in those days when you were just a kid watching to see what made them magic, right?

SB: Yeah, I would say that's where I got the passion for hockey like any young person growing up in Canada. And in those days, you know, hockey was your life. I was fortunate because I was able to watch the NHL. I was able to watch the best. And you learn by watching. And I started coaching at a very young age and I coached a lot of people my same age. So I was never like an older person coaching younger kids. And I think that kind of helps you -- you get to know everybody. Coaching is something that is a process. And I started right at the bottom. And that's where you have to start.

CO: But there's a curious detail, a fact that Ken reports in this book, which maybe other people know. But you were in Montreal -- Verdun. Everyone is talking. Every boy your age, everybody's talking hockey. You were a fan of the Boston Bruins. What's that all about?

SB: I was able to get the radio station and the announcer was Frank Ryan. I was able to listen to the games, but I had to go to bed at the end of the first period or second period sometimes. And I guess I got attracted to the game because of the radio. But the Boston Bruins -- they were a dynasty at that time and they won the Cup in I think it was 1939, 1941. And then the wartime came -- it was quite a story. I did meet some of the people on that team, especially the late Milt Schmidt. I guess getting attracted to a winning team is always pretty attractive for anybody.

CO: The Boston Bruins is always my father's favorite team. And we're in Winnipeg. So I think that they captured a lot of hearts. We have to go back to Maurice "Rocket" Richard. Because you mentioned it. And I know you watched him closely. We have some more tape we want to play. Richard missed the playoffs, as you know, in 1955 because he hit a linesman and was suspended by NHL President Clarence Campbell. And that led to the "Richard riots" as you know. And we are just going to play a bit of that tape and get you both to respond to it.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The main entrance of the Forum on Saint-Catherine St -- a huge crowd of people has assembled here. Number in hundreds -- in the thousands. As they cheer -- as the police try to push them back. The police are now forming a line and pushing the crowd back.

[Crowd shouting]

CO: I think "Down with Campbell" was the last thing we heard there. Scotty do you remember that?

SB: I was at the game. March 17th. I had my standing room pass. And I think that was the year I was starting to coach a junior B team. I was at the game and I was standing behind the blue sections in the end zone. And actually right below me was the seats where the president the late Clarence Campbell was with his wife. And Detroit took I think it was at least two or three goal lead. It was a very important game for both teams because it was near the end of the season. There was only a handful of games left. And the game was called at the end of the first or second period -- it might have been the second. But they just couldn't handle -- the tear gas bombs were going off and they had to forfeit the game. And the win allowed Detroit to move into first place. The sad part for Montreal was Maurice Richard was leading the league in scoring and he never won the scoring title and he lost that that year. And they played the seventh game and lost it in Detroit. And he didn't have a home ice advantage and he got suspended, like you mentioned, for the rest of the regular season, plus the playoffs. And it was a tough scene. I don't know how I did it, but I ended up walking the corridors. And I think it was the son of the coach of the Canadiens at the time was Dick Irvin -- Dick Irvin Junior -- who later became quite a broadcaster, as you know. And I ended up in the Canadiens dressing room. I mean you had to go somewhere. And they rioted on the streets. I don't recall what I did after the game. I mean I didn't have a car or anything like that, but I got home. But it was a terrible time. I mean, we had blocks and blocks of damage done to them, to the streets in St. Catherine Street. But it was a tough memory.

CO: Do you remember it Ken?

KD: I have no firsthand memory of it.

CO: But it was a legendary time.

KD: And there are a lot of Quebeckers who became very well-known and prominent and influential in the 1970s in the independence movement that would trace some of their real beginnings, of their passion to that time.

CO: I have in studio with me here in Toronto, Scotty Bowman -- hockey coach extraordinaire -- who is the subject of a new book by Ken Dryden, who is also in the studio with me. The book is "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Ken, I want to ask you about the way you structured this because it's very interesting that you would get him to pick in his view the best eight NHL teams of all time. And not just the teams, but the year -- the season that they were the best. And then actually put a competition together between those teams. Why did you decide to do it that way?

KD: Because I wanted to make Scotty a coach again. I think that part of the reason why there hasn't been a book really about Scotty before is that usually sports books and books from coaches are about stories. And they're after dinner speaker stories. And Scotty doesn't experience in stories. He doesn't really think in stories. He's too practical. He's a coach. And so you don't find an answer in a story. You know that's out of the past. He's got to respond to the moment. And so instead of focusing on what he's less comfortable with -- put him back into a place where he is most comfortable. Make him a coach. And so then to pick those top eight teams, because again he's seen them all, you know, up close entirely. But then set them against each other. I mean what easily happens when you're telling stories is 'This playe...oh, he's great. And great. Great. Great. Great.' Well, not everybody's great. Some are a little greater than others. And "The Rocket" didn't score every game. Gordie Howe was lousy at times. Bobby Orr's teams lost often. And so what happened then? What is it that you as a coach would do to understand those players to bring out the best -- but at the same time, if you were coaching against them, what would you do? How would you defeat them? So let's have matchups. And ahead of time, I didn't want to know who he was going to pick. But then I don't want to know who's going to win. You know, ahead of time. I want to be able to ask you questions about each series as it's happening, as if you're behind both benches. And the thing that was really interesting through it is that, again, we're talking about these teams initially, and I'm trying to guess as to who he's likely, you know, selecting here and who's going to win these series. And I was right about 60 percent of the time.

CO: Well, you warned the reader to say, don't flip to the back and find out who won. And of course I did. And if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have done it Ken. You just set that up. But we are not going to tell our listeners who does win this series because it is fun to get there. But were you at all concerned that Scotty wouldn't choose your team, that he wouldn't choose the magic 1976-77 season with the Montreal Canadiens when you were the goalie and he was the coach? Did you have a moment when you thought he wasn't going to choose that one?

KD: Absolutely. Like I wasn't sure. I thought that that team would be one of the eight. After that, I didn't know. And so we went chronologically through the years. You know through the teams of the 40s, 50s, 60s, and then 70s. And we skipped -- I mean it was because of me, wasn't because of Scotty. We went then to the 80s, 90s, and up to the present. I didn't want to talk about our team at that point. I mean at a certain point you know you develop a stake in what it is you've done and you're proud of what has happened and you don't want judgment cast on what it is you've done. And it's easy to kind of -- it's not easy, but it's easier to dismiss somebody else's judgment. It's pretty difficult to dismiss what Scotty says and thinks about the team and about me.

CO: Why did you do that? Because you couldn't say no to Ken?

SB: Well, no. What we basically -- or what I did, I saw these teams play in person -- a lot of them. And then to back it up, it wasn't like I picked a favorite team. I had a system. So it wasn't that difficult. Once you backed it up with what you saw...

CO: It wasn't based on emotions, or feelings or your gut...

SB: No.

CO: It was about the stats and numbers.

SB: Yeah. Like analytics are big now. And I mean the standings you go by the standings, we know that. So you know the playoff records are different now than they are then because they play more games now. So it was a lot of fun rehearsing. And it was mostly the team, though. What did the team do? So I didn't find it a puzzle.

CO: We are going to go back into the CBC archives -- go back 42 years to the 1977 Stanley Cup series, Game 4. You must remember this Ken. And Canadiens are facing the Boston Bruins in that series. And we're going to play this tape.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER 1: Over to Ratelle. Defense! Blocked by Dryden.

ANNOUNCER 2: And Dryden has lost his mask. The penalty has expired. Goal!

[Crowd cheers]

CO: I'm so sorry to do that to you Ken. But of course if people can't hear -- it's a bit muddy -- but you lost your mask. Boston scored against Ken. And we heard the applause, the screaming, the organs. I'm sorry, but what does that mean to you? That moment?

KD: I don't think you're that sorry, Carol.

CO: I'm trying hard.

KD: But it is what happens with goalies that almost all the highlights are something you let it.

CO: Well it all ends well.

KD: That's right. I remember that really well because I think there's only twice in my career that I lost my mask. And there was a play in the crease and the players were jostling and somebody bumped into me and my mask flew off. And it's a very odd feeling to suddenly be there without your mask on. And the irony of the whole thing is that it felt good. I loved the feeling of coolness on my face, and I wanted to demonstrate how, in fact, it didn't matter whether I had a mask on or not. That I was going to continue to play and a mask was irrelevant. And then, of course, he scored. To make it seem very relevant.

CO: But I think the Habs went on to win that, right.

SB: And in today's game, the rule is when the goaltender's mask comes off the play stops.

CO: Is that right?

SB: Oh yeah.

CO: What you asked Scotty to do Ken was to really assess the strengths and weaknesses of these eight teams. And he didn't spare you. I mean you got to know your strengths and weaknesses from his point of view. What was it like for you to have Scotty give it to you straight like that?

KD: Well, it was almost the last conversation we had. And I knew that I had to ask the question, but I avoided asking until the very end. I was nervous. I mean I was really...I was nervous. And I was nervous before some of the games and series that involve the team that I played on. And I was nervous for what Scotty might say.

CO: We are just remembering though that you did have some pretty blunt things to say to Ken way back in the 70s too. I mean 72-73 season -- didn't you get accused of being a diva Ken?

KD: Scotty would never have put it that way. But he would put it in a way that was even harder to take. I mean we would refer to it now as acting like a diva. But then it was after watching me kind of have mini tantrums, after I'd let in goals and slamming my stick to the ice and scowling. And finally, Scotty, after I'm sure a few weeks of this he sort of had enough and just came up to me in practice one day and said, do you think you're too big for this team? Do you think you're too good for this team? And essentially he was saying, you know, that look, I mean, all of those gestures you're making, essentially what you're saying is that you have a standard that is different from anyone else's. You have a need to win different from anyone else's. You are unwilling to accept certain things in a way that others are willing to accept them. And that you're just too good in that way. Is that what you're saying? And that was hard to take. That was a real ouch moment.

CO: Did you need that?

KD: I'm sure I did. I didn't think I needed it at the time. Scotty can answer you.

SB: Now they have goalie coaches so it's pretty reasonable now.

CO: But is it not true, though, that Ken you refused to hug Scotty back after you won that?

KD: I mean it wasn't an obvious not. I mean Scotty was hugging everybody and he hugged me. But I just didn't hug back. That's all. But it was an important moment. The thing that's quite remarkable that I find is that we shared seven seasons together. We won five Cups during that time. You go through a lot in seven seasons. And in the atmosphere of Montreal, there is never a quiet day. There's never an easy day. And those are seven years of potential misunderstandings. Things not going right. All of that. There are two moments that I can remember where we had bad moments. One of them was that. And one was after the 1979 Challenge Cup in New York. And it was the NHL All-Stars against the Soviet All-Stars. And I played the first two games. We won the first game. We lost the second game. And Gerry Cheevers was chosen to play the third game. And I was crushed. And I remember, you know, the couple of days later, we're back in Montreal and I go into Scotty's office and I just sort of say to him, you know, like, what about this? And he was really good because what he could have said was that well you know everybody just sort of came to a joint conclusion and decided to make the change. Instead he said that but then he also said you know, as the coach, I could have overridden them if I felt absolutely certain. But I didn't override them. And so that was the other moment in seven years -- and that's pretty good you know, of having only two moments like that, that I can recall.

CO: I'm just watching Scotty while you tell that story. And I don't think he's regretting it. I mean do you...

SB: Those series are very difficult for everybody. You're not coaching your own team for sure. And the people -- what they never realized is when we were playing those games against the Russia team -- national team -- they're a machine that's played together for maybe 11 months of the year. And we're a bunch of all-stars that are put together without practices. And it wasn't an excuse. But it showed to me the difference between the team game and an all-star game you know. And that was the tough part. And even in the 72 series which ended up in our favor -- Canada's favor -- people never realized the advantage and disadvantage that the two teams had.

CO: The Soviet team had over...

SB: Oh sure. And we learned a big lesson. But fortunately, we did come back. And Canada won that series.

CO: I'm learning a lot of why you are such a legendary and the greatest hockey coach ever at this. Scotty Bowman here with me As It Happens -- I'm speaking also with Ken Dryden about his book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Scotty just to move ahead -- the pages, the calendar fall -- you left Montreal for Buffalo in 1979 after seven years there, it seemed you were done with coaching. You'd already been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Then in 91 in Pittsburgh you changed your plans. What happened?

SB: Well, we had a misfortune in Pittsburgh. I was doing television for about three years after I left the Buffalo team. And I had an opportunity to go to Pittsburgh as a director of player personnel. They had a wonderful coach that they just hired at the same time the late Bob Johnson. And I had no intention of ever coaching again. My family was still in high school in Buffalo. I could pretty well dictate my own schedule. I could stay -- I didn't have to be there very often. I was there only in the playoffs. So it was a perfect I thought the chance to go back into hockey. And then all of a sudden through misfortune, Bob got cancer and couldn't coach the second year and passed away during that season. So it was tragic for everybody.

CO: Such a tragic story.

SB: It was. It was. They asked me if I would be the interim coach. When the season started we wanted to keep the job available. You never can tell -- he was battling a brain tumor and we wanted to keep the job. We didn't want to hire some career young guy coming in. You know, because we said he's going to come back and coach -- trying to stay positive. Unfortunately, around Thanksgiving, US Thanksgiving time, he passed away. But I had no intention of being a coach at all. I wasn't prepared for it. But I did that first year -- I stayed the course and tried to repeat as much. I mean I changed my coaching style because I wasn't expecting to be back in a coaching career again. And that's what happened.

CO: Stanley Cup also happened.

SB: We had a great team and they rallied behind. It is very similar to the time in Detroit when we won the first cup in 1997. Another tragedy, Vladimir Konstantinov -- one of our top players, a Russian player -- was in a limousine accident. He was injured very badly, couldn't play anymore. And they dedicated that season to believing that we would win for Vladimir. So there's a lot of motivation but the wrong kind. You know you don't want to have that.

CO: And so you began part two of a coaching career. But you still continue even to this day. You work as an adviser for the Chicago Blackhawks. As I think Ken mentioned, your son Stan, named after the Stanley Cup...[Laughter] Do you miss it? What do you miss about being behind the bench?

SB: It still comes back though. During the wintertime I still go to -- when I'm in Florida I go to all of Tampa Bay Lightning games. And they're a wonderful team. But even when I'm not at a game and there's no game to go to -- around 7 or 7:30 because you've been behind events so many times, you know, especially in the wintertime, the summer is different -- but it's funny the clock works in your mind and it's 7 or 7:30 you're thinking, well, just about time to go behind the bench. It's crazy, but it happens all the time. But I like to watch youth hockey too. I got four grandsons and one grand-daughter now that are playing in youth hockey. But I still go to as many tournaments. I really like to watch players that haven't even been drafted. I'm always inquisitive as a coach, but I'm trying now to 'who are the stars coming up?' You know, like you see them and then these are -- and even the ones that don't become draft picks...I like to watch Hockey.

CO: It's in your blood to be sure. Ken I'm glad that you were able to finally lure this man out and get a book out of him. Well done.

KD: Well, thanks. It was really a pleasure to do.

CO: All right. And thank you, Scotty Bowman, for coming and for a hockey life like no other. Thank you both.

KD: Thanks, Carol.

SB: Thank you.

ND: That's former NHL hockey coach Scotty Bowman, who was behind the bench for nine Stanley Cup victories more than any other coach in history. Ken Dryden is a Hall of Fame goaltender, formerly of the Montreal Canadiens. He's also the author of "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." It's published by McClelland and Stewart, and it's in bookstores on Tuesday. And you can head to our webpage for more, including videos we created with Ken Dryden and Scotty Bowman: cbc.ca/aih.

CO: We are at the end of this edition of As It Happens. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One. And if you want to listen to our program live or on demand anytime, make sure you download the CBC Listen app. I'm Carol Off. Thanks for listening.

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October 25, 2019 Episode Transcript

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