Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for October 02, 2019

Hosts: Nil Koksal and Karen Gordon

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Koksal, sitting in for Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

KG: Tonight:

NK: A deeply unappealing appeal. The government wants the Federal Court to review a ruling saying it should pay billions in compensation to First Nations kid — and our guest is among those who are disgusted by that.

KG: The frat is in the fire. Leaders at University of British Columbia wonders if students need more sexual-consent training, after allegations on social media that women were drugged at fraternity parties on the weekend.

NK: Breaking ground with every step. As tributes pour in for the great actor Diahann Carroll — the first black woman to star in her own TV show — we'll hear from the person who knew her best: her daughter.

KG: Long in the tooth. In a drawer at the Royal Ontario Museum, a paleontologist finds a forgotten fossil — and she says it proves sabre-toothed cats roamed Alberta tens of thousands of years ago.

NK: Local hero — or international scooper-villain? A woman with an ice cream stand in Ecuador finds favor by finding a new flavour — but before you book your flight, you should know the flavour: guinea pig.

KG: And...the only occasion he's actually risen to. Our guest explains why she made a giant cake shaped like beleaguered British Prime Minister Boris Johnson — which doesn't sound delicious, given his frequent tastelessness.

KG: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that guesses she doesn't mind caking a guy while he's down.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Indigenous care appeal, Diahann Carroll obit, BoJo cake maker

Indigenous care appeal

Guest: Charlie Angus

KG: Instead of compensating Indigenous kids, why is the Liberal government taking them to court? That was the question for Justin Trudeau today as he arrived in St-Anaclet, Quebec. The government has just announced that it would be appealing a human rights tribunal ruling. The ruling ordered the government to pay compensation for what it found was the discriminatory underfunding of child welfare programmes in Indigenous communities. Cindy Blackstock — who's the executive director of the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society — led that fight for compensation. Here's some of what Liberal leader Justin Trudeau had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We agree that we need to compensate them. We absolutely agree there needs to be compensation. The question on how to do it requires conversations with partners, with communities, with experts.

REPORTER: So why didn’t you ask for and for an extension, instead of asking for a judicial review?

JT: The decision by the human rights tribunal came down mere days before the actual writ got dropped. And the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal expects us to bring in a plan of action by December. That is simply not practical, not possible, given the electoral context we are in. That is why we need to have more time to be able to have these conversations.

REPORTER: The FNs Perry Belgrade came out with a statement, and said he called this decision beyond unacceptable were his words. What sort of goodwill does this foster?

JT: We need to get this compensations right. We need to do this the right way. And Canadians know that that is not something that Ottawa decides. It's something that we've decided in partnership. Whether it was the Sixties Scoop, whether it was the forced relocations, whether it was the day schools, whether it was the TV apology and compensations, these are things that need to be done in a respectful way with communities. And in an electoral period, we simply do not have time to do it. We recognize the harm that has been done. And we fully accept the need for compensation. But Canadians expect us to get it right. And Indigenous peoples expect us to get it right. And that's exactly what we're going to do.

KG: That was Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in St-Anaclet, Quebec this afternoon. Charlie Angus is an NDP candidate in the riding of Timmins-James Bay. We reached him in South Porcupine, Ontario.

NK: Mr. Angus, Justin Trudeau says time is needed to get this right. What do you say to Mr. Trudeau?

CHARLIE ANGUS: Well, I think Mr. Trudeau has had an enormous amount of time to block, to interfere, to use lawyers against a human rights tribunal. But what he's actually doing at court is they're filing to say that if they have to stop recklessly discriminating against Indigenous children, it will cause irreparable harm. So the government of Canada is going after Cindy Blackstock. So Mr. Trudeau is not about getting this right. This is about the long and dismal pattern of the Trudeau government, the Harper government, the Chretien government going all the way back, of saying that they can decide whether or not they have to comply with basic obligations to children. And let's remember his government has been found guilty of willfully and recklessly discriminating against First Nations children. So this is just one more tactic to try and stop justice for the most vulnerable children in this country.

NK: We are in the midst, as you very well know, of an election campaign, and mistakes have may been made in the past. Mr. Trudeau acknowledged that — and has before. Why not wait till the election period is over?

CA: Well, Mr. Trudeau is not waiting. When the first ruling came down of the human rights tribunal, we were fully hopeful Mr. Trudeau would accept it. Instead, they fight it every step of the way. And the result of those four non-compliance orders was the death of over 102 First Nation children in Ontario alone. And among those deaths, was 12-year-old Chantel Fox and Jolyn Winter in Wapekeka — horrific story. The broken foster care system is a system of hopelessness and abuse. And we lose children all the time in it. And every step of the way, this government has opted to fight against their obligations to ensure that every child — on reserve or off reserve — has access to fair services. And so this is another tactic of using the immense power of the Canadian government to fight children who are in a situation that is very, very similar to what happened to previous generations in the residential schools.

NK: This is a government that has said we are changing the way we communicate and deal with Indigenous communities in this country. We're restoring those relationships. We're repairing those relationships.

AC: Well, I think of all the children who died just in the last few years. I think of the reports that I read on the abuse that children have suffered in Ontario and Saskatchewan and Manitoba that is going on day in day out. And yet, the government says that they will be the ones irreparably harmed, and not these children. We're talking about lives being destroyed. And we believed Mr. Trudeau in 2015 when he said he was going to do things differently. But when a government is found guilty of willfully and recklessly discriminating against children — children who are dying in the system — then Mr. Trudeau has to do better.

NK: Why do you believe the Liberals are to blame, and Justin Trudeau to blame specifically for all of those names you listed?

AC: Well, they're the government. And at every step of the way, this government opted to use the power of the Justice Department to fight, rather than what he says to negotiate to get it right. It was about delaying.

NK: There is a deadline. The court says this has to be done by December. What would Jagmeet Singh and the NDP do if they were in Mr. Trudeau's place?

AC: What we've said from the beginning of this ruling is to send a very clear message: we will not appeal. Now, let's sit down and get this right. There is a big difference between saying we will not appeal, and we will work with you to find a way to deal with this. Then what he is doing. And if we're looking at the compensation these children are being offered, what 40,000 dollars for destroyed lives? That's peanuts. It's gonna be much smaller than the class-action lawsuits that will one day come to this country. And I've stood up and watched apologies to previous generations of children. I don't want us to have to apologize to this generation of children. I want us to say to them we will get this right because the damage that's being done in this broken system, when you get close to it, and when you actually see what's happening, it's pretty hard to fathom that this could go on. And Mr. Trudeau has failed us on this. He's failed, failed, failed.

NK: But if I'm understanding, Mr. Angus, what you said, you would also take time, you said. You would need more time to discuss.

CA: No, I said we would immediately say we will not appeal this. End of story. So where do we go from here in fixing this? Yeah, let's sit down and talk about that. But let's not say well, we will fight this ruling. That's what they're doing. They're saying if they have to abide by this ruling, it will cause Canada irreparable harm.

NK: The tribunal has ordered the government to negotiate their plans by December. What would you do differently?

CA: Well, one of the reasons that the tribunal has put those tight timelines on the government is because of the government's stalling. And that was what happened with Jordan's Principle, where the government kept saying we want to get this right. But it was about leaving things to sit on desks for years. And so they were given a 12-hour to 24-hour turnaround for children at risk. The reason that was done was because of the deaths of children in Wapekeka. The tribunal has dealt for 12 years with the Trudeau and Harper governments, and they don't believe them. So they're saying we're giving you till Christmas to do this right. Because they know that the government will stall. And I can say that the tribunal ruling that forced them to meet the short turnaround times on children in crisis has saved children's lives. Children are getting treatment.

NK: But what would you do, sir, differently is the question?

CA: Well, the question is quite simple is that yes, by Christmas, we would get this figured out. And it's not rocket science here. I mean, the shortfalls in the child welfare system are known. The reports have been done. It’s that the government doesn't want to meet the costs. And if they have to keep denying it, they're going to end up paying more in the long run.

NK: It could be damaging to them politically to do what you say they are doing. Why do you think they're doing that in the middle of this campaign?

CA: I am astounded that the Trudeau government would go down this road — particularly targeting Cindy Blackstock., who's seen by many as like the Martin Luther King of Canada. This shows how deep seated the refusal to end the discrimination against Indigenous children is. And I'm embarrassed that our country continues to believe that they can get away with discriminating children who are in such, such terrible conditions. And then the deaths and the abuse that that is ongoing and that everybody in the system knows about. That the reports are done, and yet they could go into the human rights tribunal and fight with lawyers to stop fairness for these children. It’s not acceptable.

NK: Mr. Angus, thank you.

CA: Thank you so much.

KG: Charlie Angus is the NDP MP for the riding of Timmins-James Bay, and he's running for re-election. We reached him in South Porcupine, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Diahann Carrol obit

Guest: Suzanne Kay

KG: "If you're not invited to the party, throw your own." Words of advice from the great Diahann Carroll, who changed the course of television history more than half a century ago. The actor died today at her home following complications of breast cancer. She was 84. Diahann Carroll blazed a trail in Hollywood by becoming the first black woman in history to star in her own TV series, "Julia", in the late '60s. In the '80s, she would become known for her role as the wealthy and ruthless Dominique Devereaux on the prime-time soap "Dynasty." Here's Ms. Carroll being interviewed on her first day on that set.

SOUNDCLIP

DIAHANN CARROL: I wanted to be the first black bitch on television. I picked up the telephone, and I called my manager. And I said do me a favour: get the word around. I've never played a role quite this unlikable, and I like that. I like that very much because I think very often, particularly minorities, it's almost required of them that they are nice people. And I don't want to play a nice person.

KG: Ms. Carroll leaves behind her daugher, Suzanne Kay. We reached Ms. Kay — who's a producer and writer — in New York City.

NK: Ms. Kay, I'm so sorry for your loss.

SUUZANNE KAY: Thank you. Thank you.

NK: Our listeners just heard a clip of your mom speaking quite frankly about why she wanted that role as Dominique Deveraux on “Dynasty”. Does that sound like the Diane Carroll you knew?

SK: [slight chuckle] It's making me laugh and cry at the same time. But yeah, I mean, my mother did not like being told what box she was supposed to remain in. She had no interest in other people defining her and her possibilities. She never bought into the idea that a woman or person of colour should only do such as such. Where she got that kind of strength and balls, I think, in part came from her mother and her grandmother. And I want to believe she passed it on to me and my daughter and son. But she was always you know defiantly who she was. So that sounds very much like my mother to me.

NK: What did she tell you about why it was so important for her to forge that kind of path?

SK: You know, she wasn't much of a let's sit down and talk about this and analyze this. It took me years to understand why she was doing what she was doing because she was just out there doing it. We didn't have conversations around the dinner table about the slights that she'd faced when she was younger, first coming into the business, all the way through to where she was at the end. She'd always face those kind of what they now call micro-aggressions and more overt behaviour that limiting on people of colour. She always faced them, but we didn't sit around and talk about them. That just wasn't her way. You just walk in the room, and you sit down at the table because they need you at the table. That was the message that I got from her. Very little time spent wringing our hands over how people treated her. And much more about just where she wanted to go.

NK: That pioneering role on television as Julia, what was the impact of that role do you think?

SK: I wouldn't know fully the impact of that role untill I began to hear it from other people. Because I grew up with her, so she was my vision of what a black woman should be. And it was only when I listened to other people say they could sit at home, and my mother would come on the screen, and she had a kind of elegance and a comfort in her own skin. And the images that people of colour were being given in the media at that time were not that. And so for a lot of people I've seen tears in their eyes. Women come up to me — black women in particular — grab my arm, and say you have no idea what she means to us. And that was how I began to understand what she'd accomplished. For me, she was just my mother, and she didn't come home and change very much. That kind of strong, bossy, you know very clear-speaking person was the one I grew up with.

NK: Yeah, this is a woman who personified glamour with a capital “G”. Diva in the best sense of the word. Absolutely. I certainly grew up watching her. What was she like at home?

SK: I think that the weaponry that you need to survive — especially then — alone out there. She was a lone wolf in Hollywood. She's a lone wolf on Broadway in that she was really the first. You didn't take that weaponry off at home. The clothes, and the way she presented herself, she had to 24/7 keep that going. Because it wasn't a job, she was doing. You know, she was carving a path. And that takes a lot of grit. So I would love to tell you she came home and then there was this whole other side. But I don't know. I would say she was kind of like what you saw publicly is the way she was at home. We would have fun. But she lived very high. She liked to go to the beach and had champagne and sit at the best restaurant and look out at the ocean, you know? She worked hard, and she wanted to do this. Not that far off of the character. So you know I when I was younger, I thought it was kind of a little over the top. But as I grew to appreciate why she kept that up, and what her odds had been, what her obstacles had been, I understood it better. But yeah, there wasn't the you know torn jeans and torn t-shirt version of my mother.

NK: You've had to share her with the public for your entire life. Did that strain your relationship?

SK: Yes. And she spoke about it. She would say she won a Tony, and a Golden Globe, and was nominated for an Emmy, and an Oscar, but no one would have given her an Academy Award for mother. That was her sort of dramatic way of saying that was one of the probably the greatest prices she paid, and I paid for what she accomplished. And it took us a lot of years to get past that. But we did eventually, and I’m very, very happy at the end to say that we had a bond. And you know a good woman-to-woman kind of relationship. We could talk about men. We could talk about raising children. We could speak you know more as equals. So we were good. We were definitely good in the last I would say seven years, especially — very good.

NK: You found your way back to each other?

SK: We did. We absolutely did.

NK: You know, I was watching another clip of your mother's Tony acceptance speech. And the gratitude, and she said I wanted this. And she talked about Richard Rodgers helping her get the role, giving her the role, knocking on her door her. Her softness and her gratitude there was quite striking too.

SK: Yeah. And I think there's an interview that she did in Oprah's Master Class, which people really noted as being more vulnerable and intimate than some of her others. And that was later in her life. There were moments when she did let that guard down, and she let people see some of her deeper feelings and thoughts. You know this world is not easy on women. It’s not easy on women of color. And so we all understood why she had to keep up her guard.

NK: All of these years later, after your mother's pioneering roles, we're still talking about firsts for African-American actors — male and female. What did your mother make of where the industry is at in 2019?

SK: That's a lovely question. I'm glad you asked it. And I'm going to try not to get emotional again, but I believe it was a BET Awards that she was being given some kind of lifetime achievement something. Anyway, she stood on the stage and looked out at a sea of black and brown faces, and knew so many of them were actually in positions of power in the industry, behind the scenes, in front of the scenes, and some of them could actually greenlight projects, could say yes the projects, and finance them. And it just moved her to tears. I think she was pleased, really pleased that not only that there were more people of colour in the industry. But that we were beginning to create coalitions, and support one another, and not buy into the idea that as a black actress if you accept an amount of money for a role, you're offered that below a white actress, you have to accept it because otherwise, they'll just give it to someone else. Now more and more those actresses are calling one another saying none of us are going to take that lower amount, you know? So there's much more coalition-building and awareness because there's more of us, we have more numbers. Mom didn't have that back then. I think she was very aware of that. And it really warmed her to see that we've come this far. A lot of those things about this country she left here really disillusioned and horrified. But I think seeing that in Hollywood made her very happy.

NK: Ms. Kay, thank you so much for your time. It's such a difficult time, so for you to share her once again with all of us. It means a lot.

SK: Thank you. Thank you.

KG: The great Diahann Carroll died today at the age of 84. We reached her daughter, Suzanne Kay, in New York City.

[Music: Ambient]

BoJo cake maker

Guest: Rosie Dummer

KG: Rosie Dummer is famous for her cakes. Not only because they're tasty, but because they're so detailed. She's made cakes of Bollywood dancers, of a life-size rocking horse, even of the Queen's guard — life-size versions, complete with the bearskin hats, gold buttons and belts. Today, she unveiled her latest creation in London, England. And given the mess in British politics these days, she made this one with a mop — a blonde mop. We reached Rosie Dummer at the show in London.

NK: So, Ms. Dummer, describe to us this cake you've made?

ROSIE DUMMER: Oh, so I've got my Boris. So we've got Boris Johnson on the zip wire. This is kind of taken from 2012, where he was caught on a zip wire. And we just thought it was a little bit of a funny moment. And we were going to immortalize him in cake.

NK: So in case anybody missed it. Boris Johnson — the prime minister — suspended from a zip line.

RD: We literally have a life-sized cake that looks to all intents and purposes as though he's suspended from a zip wire, flying the British flag, and looking a little bit perplexed at how he's going to get down. So it's sitting in the air. I think it goes to that seven foot tall — maybe a little taller.

NK: Why did you want to make a life-sized cake of Boris Johnson suspended on a zip line?

RD: [laughs] You're making me sound really nutty at the moment. No, it's because we’re at the Cake and Bake Show. So this is a big show in London all for people who love baking, cake decorating, and always do a lovely feature piece at the front that's a little bit entertaining. Something the public is going to enjoy. And a little bit of a show-off really as to what you can do with edible ingredients. So this year it was a little bit topical we decided to do Boris. Because everybody's talking about Boris at the moment, and we thought we'd tap into that.

NK: And it's not just baking. The engineering involved is part of what made us interested in your story and your creation. [RD laughs] So gravity is a factor. How did you make this happen?

RD: Yeah, well, the truth is we were inspired by the competitions. The theme this year was illusion cake. So that's why Boris on the zip wire suspended looking as though he's floating in midair was something that tickled us. In the meantime, we then had to work out how to do it. My husband is an engineer, so thankfully, I get a little bit of advice from him. But essentially I have to be honest, just between you, me, and presumably your listeners, there is a little bit of structure involved — because without it, obviously, he would fall over. So I do have a welder. I used the welder to create a structure that, hopefully, will support the body weight. And I have to tell you this cake is heavier than Boris himself. It takes two people to lift it. So essentially, we've got a little bit of a frame in there, and that's supporting the cake itself.

NK: How long did it take you to make it?

RD: Too long, far too long. It's taken me in all, probably about the best part of a month. Because that's including drawing it up, working out how to do it, things that will help me along the way like the frame, etc. So the best part of a month. But putting the cake in and doing the cake part of it has been a good week. And when I say a week, I mean you wake up in the morning and don't do anything until two o'clock the next morning. So I'd say it's a double-time week maybe.

NK: And is it all edible

RD: No, no, and I can't pretend that it is — although I'd love to. But part of the illusion is created by the fact that the bottom half is you know mainly the structure. All of his body is cake. And up to his helmet his cake. So I like to think of the bottom bit as maybe the cake stand as well.

NK: And why did you pick chocolate?

RD: Well, the truth is I like using a mixture of chocolate and sugar paste. I always like chocolate cake. So chocolate is one of the things that I find is an easy win — an easy sell to people — they all love it. And also I like covering my cakes and chocolate because when you're doing a big cake, often here people use buttercream, but everything would just fall and slip with buttercream. Whereas chocolate sets hard, and you can then attach the sugar paste to it, and it doesn't slip. Your fingers crossed it doesn't slip, but so far so good.

NK: Why did you pick this particular moment in Boris Johnson's political life?

RD: I think much as I'd like to say it was it was because it was funny, it wasn't. It was really because of the illusion cake theme. So it fitted in with a theme. And suddenly the idea of someone suspended in midair was perfect. And Boris, it just all married together. Everyone's reaction has been what we wanted, which is just a little bit of fun. Whether they love Boris or whether they hate him, it doesn't matter. They've all loved the cake. They've all had a giggle. And to be truthful, we worried that maybe people would take political connotations from it that they haven’t. They've been cool about it.

NK: I was going to ask you about that. Because he is not universally beloved, as you very well know, you live there, you’re in the middle of the Brexit love.

RD: No, but what politician is? Yeah, I think with any politician, you run that risk. And the truth is people will say I love Boris. Or they will say I hate Boris, but I love your cake. And so essentially the one thing I do think about Boris is that he's got a sense of humour. Now whether you love him or hate him, you've got to admit that he likes a laugh. So I think that's the bit we've tapped into. And it seemed to work.

NK: And I wonder living there, being mired in all of the Brexit discussions and debates, the ongoing mess that is Brexit, do you think people need a laugh?

RD: I think that's exactly right. At a time like this, when the country is genuinely divided over the whole issue of Brexit, you realize that nobody's ever going to please everybody — and they can't possibly. So at this point, whether you want Brexit, whether you don't want Brexit, at least we can sit there and say we have got a sense of humor. You can have a little bit of a laugh even though the country is quite serious about the situation at the moment.

NK: So you've put all of this time and energy into this creation. The parts that are edible, do you all sit down afterwards and say Job well done, let's eat cake?

RD: Let's eat cake, why not? Absolutely. I think we have to wait till Sunday. We have to let people get their photos. But whoever is here on Sunday is going to get a little bit of a nibble. And I'll be honest, I've had a nibble on the way just for quality control purposes, of course. Just to check that he's as chocolaty and tasty as he should be — so whether you think Boris is tasty or not, my cake definitely is.

NK: There is no judgment here, only celebration of your commitment, Rosie. Thank you so much for your time.

RD: [giggle] Thank you very much.

KG: Rosie Dummer is a cake maker who unveiled a life-size cake of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson today at the Cake and Bake show. We reached her in London. If you want to see the cake — and honestly, you really do want to see this! — go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folksy guitar]

Part two: UBC frat investigation, sabre-toothed cat find

UBC frat investigation

Guest: Ainsley Carry

KG: Fraternities at the University of British Columbia say they'll hit pause on parties and events, indefinitely. That decision comes after an allegation on social media that multiple women were drugged at parties over the weekend. Meanwhile, the University's RCMP detachment is investigating, too — even though there are very few details about the accusations, and no complainants have come forward. It all started with a tweet from UBC instructor Marina Adshade. Here's what she told CBC this week, about a disturbing report she got from a student.

SOUNDCLIP

MARINA ADSHADE: She told me that she'd been at a bar downtown on a student outing, and she had been drugged in that bar. In fact, she told me that within 10 minutes of arriving in the bar, she could remember nothing after that point. Her friends, recognizing that she had a problem, and thank goodness they were there, took her to the hospital where they identified that she had in fact been drugged in the bar. And so that was the last thing she remembers until she woke up the next day.

KG: Ainsley Carry speaks for the university on this. He's the vice-president for students on UBC Vancouver campus. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Mr. Carry, what is your reaction to that story from a UBC instructor about what one of her students told her?

AINSLEY CARRY: That's disturbing that any student or person would have to experience that. I am glad that the student went out and sought help. And it's awful. And we are distraught about that entire experience.

NK: When you first learned of the allegation, what did you and the university leaders do with that information?

AC: We learned about this allegation through the social media tweet that was shared by the faculty member about 10:00 o’clock at night. And about 6:00 in the morning, my team got on the phone to think through how do we make sure to notify our community about this danger and this risk? So the following day, we sent out a message to our entire campus community, informing them of what we had learned about the information that was shared via social media. We engaged the RCMP UBC detachment and asked them to be prepared to investigate this matter so that we directed everyone in that direction.

NK: Have you had a chance to speak to the student who spoke to her instructor to offer support?

AC: I have not had a chance to speak to the student members of our university community have reached out to the student. I understand that she's doing well.

NK: It's been a few days now, do you have more information about the allegations?

AC: It is under investigation by the RCMP, and we're trying to give them the space to collect the information. In addition to this particular incident that happened as the instructor described at a bar downtown, we are working with the RCMP and Vancouver police to gather information. But we're also hoping that anyone who has individual information about the allegations the faculty made that other UBC students may have been drugged at a campus fraternity party. We're desperately seeking that information. We want to take action on that as soon as possible.

NK: And I wanted to ask you a bit more about that — the potential connection to fraternities in this case. What are you hearing from fraternities about this?

AC: The fraternities are very concerned about this. They were distraught when we met with them as the news broke. The leaders of the fraternities, this is not their M.O. The young men that I have met with they are very concerned about this allegation. And they have agreed to cooperate by any means necessary to get to the bottom of this. I think they are equally concerned about finding out who may have done this.

NK: But there is an initiative on campus to give special training at fraternities. Can you tell us about that?

AC: You know, every year we bring our Greek-letter organizations together and talk about expectations, behaviour, our relationship with them, we update them on noise violations that we may be aware of. We provide them the latest information and education around issues of sexual violence prevention. And we bring in individuals to talk about those areas and give them information about how to be better community partners.

NK: You yourself have talked about this red zone, the start of the school year. That there can be a difficult, disruptive, some might even say dangerous culture in some cases. Tell us more about that?

AC: Prior to UBC, I worked at universities throughout the United States. And we have recognized for some years now that the first six to eight weeks of a student's enrollment is a very vulnerable time for brand new 17-18-year-old students, who are two to three months removed from high school. The expectations of the university environment, the academic expectations, building new relationships also comes along with a bit of experimentation. That area of discovery may involve alcohol or drugs. So we do find the first six to eight weeks of the semester, students are making an incredible adjustment being outside of the supportive structure of parents and siblings and friends, and now trying to adjust to a brand new world.

NK: The fact that you have that workshop that we talked about a moment ago, are you concerned about frat culture on your campus?

AC: Fraternity culture has its pluses and minuses. It's a place where students grow and connect and bond with each other. They build great networks and relationships. But it's also a culture that’s sometimes unmanaged outside of the university's purview. Our Greek-letter organizations are independent organizations. And at times, a group of 18-19-year-old men left to their own devices may do things that we will deem inappropriate. And when we learn about those behaviours, we do everything that we can to punish those activities. And we'll do everything that we can to help remediate the environment around what has happened. But yes, we are concerned with all of our student communities — including our Greek-letter organizations.

NK: Earlier this week, we interviewed the mayor of London, Ontario. He was calling out male students for writing very sexually explicit, misogynistic messages on bedsheets and then hanging them from their front porches as part of a fake homecoming event. What's the broader issue here? Why is this still happening on campuses across Canada?

AC: It is confusing to us for the generation who has been educated by the #MeToo movement, who has received more university and high school education on topics of sexual violence prevention than perhaps any generation prior, why some of them would continue to exhibit behaviour that they are well aware is inappropriate now? By any measure, by any standard, by any observer of these activities, why this continues is at this time beyond me. But it is very disheartening. We try to create a community that is safe and welcoming to all. And these activities disrupt that effort severely. And then we have to try to find a way to repair our campus community, following these types of activities. So it is concerning to me as a vice-president for students that some students haven't gotten the message yet.

NK: Mr. Carry, I thank you for your time.

AC: Thank you very much. Appreciate you helping us get this word out.

KG: Ainsley Carry speaks for the University of British Columbia, as the vice-president for students. We reached him in Vancouver. The University's RCMP detachment and the Vancouver Police say they have no police reports related to the initial allegation of female students being drugged. But they're encouraging anyone with information to come forward.

[Music: Sombre]

FOA: John Buchanan

KG: Thank-you notes weren't John Buchanan's style. He preferred a thank-you sign. The morning after big election wins, the former Nova Scotia Premier used to stand outside with a big sign, thanking motorists as they drove by. Mr. Buchanan died yesterday. He was 88 years old. He served as Nova Scotia Premier from 1978 to 1990 — and in that time secured four majority wins. As It Happens spoke to him in 1980, after Quebec's first independence referendum. Mr. Buchanan was in Ottawa with other Premiers, rewriting Canada's constitution — and he had concerns that Quebec was hogging the spotlight in the discussions. Here's host Peter Gzowski, speaking to then-relatively-new Nova Scotia Premier John Buchanan.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER GZOWWSKI: You're something of a new boy to the “Premiers’ Club”.

JOHN BUCHANAN: Yes, that's right.

PG: Do you feel that at all?

JB: Not now. I suppose after a year-and-a-half and three meetings, I'm not the new boy anymore.

PG: But even in in the short year-and-a-half that you've been there, you can feel the difference —presumably caused by the results of the referendum?

JB: No question about that. The referendum has caused more movement than we would have had had there not been a referendum.

PG: The issue of entrenching language rights, the charter that the prime minister has put before you, how do you feel about that from your particular point of view?

JB: Well, I take the position that if there is to be constitutional change, and we are committed to renewed federalism and constitutional change. But if we are to agree and negotiate constitutional change on the claims and the aspirations of Quebec or the federal government, then there's got to be agreement or a consensus among provinces on the problems that we have and the claims that we have.

PG: Which is a way of saying if I hear you correctly that your top priorities are economic, and that the language rights is a card to play with?

JB: No question about that. The priority in Nova Scotia is economic. We're a “have not” province in terms of the Canadian economy and regional disparities. And I think we can come to an agreement as long as there's a recognition on the part of the federal government that our claims and our hopes are as real as theirs.

KG: That was John Buchanan, speaking to Peter Gzowski in 1980. Nine years later, Mr. Buchanan had loosened up somewhat in the Premier's Office. Here he is, delivering his best bark in the legislature during a heated argument.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: Where's your emergency? Where's your emergency, sir?

SPEAKER: Madam Speaker, the emergency.

JB: You're the emergency.

SPEAKER: The emergency hinges on the fact that the minister stood in this room [JB barks] and tabled a particular bill in order to remove…

KG: That was former Nova Scotia Premier John Buchanan, barking in the legislature in 1989. Mr. Buchanan died yesterday. He was 88 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

Sabre-toothed cat find

Guest: Ashley Reynolds

KG: Ashley Reynolds is a paleontologist at the University of Toronto. And she studies cats. As part of her research, she was going through drawers at the Royal Ontario Museum — and that's when she found something that piqued her interest. Fossils found near Medicine Hat, Alberta in the 1960s — some of which some were labeled Smilodon fatalis. That translates to "fatal knife tooth." But you might call them "sabre-toothed tigers." To tell us about her study, which was published today, we reached Ashley Reynolds in Toronto.

NK: Ms. Reynolds, tell us about the moment you found these fossils. What was that like?

ASHLEY REYNOLDS: It was really sort of I guess perplexing is a good way to describe it. I certainly was not expecting to find anything labeled as Smilodon in our collection from Canada. Because to my knowledge, there were no Smilodon in Canada. So it's kind of a moment of like this can't be real, right? Right? Right? [NK and AR laugh] And so then we looked into it, and it turned out it was real.

NK: Which one in particular caught your eye? Describe what it looks like?

AR: So what caught my eye was this fragment of a metacarpal, which is a bone from the paw of Smilodon. Or in a human, it's from the palm of the hand. And this one comes from sort of the pinky side of the hand. It's actually the one that is actually on the pinky. And this one, what we have is we have the half of it that is sort of closer to the wrist end. And it kind of just looks like any sort of finger bone. It's sort of rounded on one end. And then it has just a sort of long shaft where the sort of main part of the bone is. And then it's broken in our case.

NK: So you're looking at this in the drawer. You can't believe what you're seeing. So how do you confirm that it was what you thought it was?

AR: Well, in order to confirm that we have what we're hoping we have, we have to pull out every single thing that we think it could possibly be. So that same metacarpal, that same bone from all of these different species. And that can be things like bears, it can be wolves, anything that is the right size, and would have been around at the right time. And we sort of systematically go through and check off why it's not each one of those. So it’s sort of process of elimination.

NK: So paints us a picture. How was this creature living 40,000 years ago?

AR: Well, 40,000 years ago, Medicine Hat, Alberta, would have looked not terribly different. It would have been a grassland. There would have been a little bit more tree cover than we see today. But, more-or-less, it would be relatively familiar to us at least in terms of the plants that we were seeing and the sort of general environment. Where it starts to get different is the animals. So we have records from the place seeing things that are very familiar to people in Alberta today. Things like pronghorn antelope, and ground squirrels. But then we also have things that are entirely foreign to us. Things like mammoths and the American lion. And now we know Smilodon as well.

NK: And how would the Smilodon have lived?

AR: So it would have been quite big. It's about the size of a living African lion — maybe a little bit bigger — but sort of on the shorter and stalkier. It's kind of like the burly cousin. And what would have been most striking about it was these large curved fangs that were sticking out of its mouth. And these are sort of like if you had a steak knife just sort of jutting out of your mouth. They're long, they're thin, and they're serrated on both the front and back ends.

NK: I think they looked as scary as they sound.

AR: Yes, I would imagine so. [laughs]

NK: Well, you don't like the term sabre-tooth tigers?

AR: No, sabre-tooth tiger is a common name. And, of course, any common name is correct in as much as it helps us understand the thing that we're talking about. But tiger is a little bit of a misnomer because the sabre-tooth cat Smilodon is actually equally related to a housecat as it is to a tiger.

NK: You mentioned that being a surprise this Canadian connection because the Smilodon only lived, to your knowledge, to this point to a certain point north?

AR: Yeah, yeah, so it was it was very surprising. I didn't expect there to be Smilodon in Canada at all. And certainly didn't expect it to be sort of essentially in the backyard of where I go do fieldwork every year.

NK: So they lived as far north as Idaho as I understand it?

AR: Yes. Yeah, so the previous record for the northernmost Smilodon specimen was in Idaho.

NK: What else of significance did you dig out of this drawer?

AR: Well, we found because of this some other specimens that were from various cat species that were also found in the Medicine Hat area. One of them is from an American lion, which is a really huge lion. It actually would have been quite a bit bigger than either the African lion today or even Smilodon itself. And we found some toe bones from that animal, as well as a possible cave lion, which is an animal that's only known from as far south as the Yukon territory in Canada. And then the last thing that we found was a lynx or a bobcat.

NK: Does it make you wonder what else might be hiding in some drawers?

AR: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think one of the most exciting things about this is that it felt like they were just waiting for us to come and find them. And I think this really underscores the importance of museum collections. If we didn't have this collection where these fossils were sorted and organized and in an easy to find place, then a researcher like me would have never been able to find them. And we never would have known that we had Smilodon in our country.

NK: It's quite a discovery. What happens next?

AR: Well, next we'd like to do some more fieldwork in the area. I would really like to be able to find more materials so that we don't just have this cute little toe bone. And start to sort of unravel a little bit more about the whole ecosystem that Smilodon would have been a part of in Alberta.

NK: Will it go on display — the cute little toe bone you describe?

AR: I don't know. You would have to ask as a curator at the Royal Ontario Museum — because, unfortunately, it's not up to me; if it were up to me, then absolutely.

NK: To be determined.

AR: Yes.

NK: Ms. Reynolds, thank you for your time.

AR: No, thank you.

KG: Ashley Reynolds is a PhD candidate at the University of Toronto. Her study was published today in the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: World music]

Guinea pig ice cream

KG: I scream. You scream. We all scream — helplessly, over and over, confronted with a horror so total that it blackens the sky — at ice cream. Not usually, of course. Unless you're lactose-intolerant, or you've just had six cavities filled, you probably enjoy ice cream. Although there are probably flavours that disgust you: Rum raisin, maybe. Pistachio. Spumoni. But even those you'd be able to choke down in an emergency. Well, the ice cream I'm about to tell you about is an emergency. Not to everyone, I should point out. I don't want to be ethnocentric. I mean, in Central America, guinea pig is a fairly common meal. It's just that it's a fairly rare dessert. Not rare enough — now that Maria del Carmen Pilapana has invented guinea pig ice cream. Ms. Pilapana is an entrepreneur who opened her own stand outside Quito, Ecuador last month. Now I don't know the full range of flavours she offers, but I can tell you three: mushroom; beetle; and guinea pig. That last she makes by turning the guinea pig meat into a pate before mixing it with cream and freezing it. Savoury ice cream already seems like a challenge. Savoury ice cream that contains fungus, insects, or the meat of an adorably plump rodent seems like an efficient way to ruin ice cream in one fell scoop. But Maria del Carmen Pilapana is selling 150 servings a week. So while a salty spoonful of frozen guinea pig doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me, it seems to be cause for celebration in Ecuador. And Ms. Pilapana is the life of the pate.

[Music: Electronica]

Part three: Canadian child deportation, research award winner, Belgium wolf update

Canadian child deportation

Guest: Paul Caulford

KG: Julian Orozco is seven. He was born in Canada and is a Canadian citizen. But tomorrow, Julian and his family are set to be deported to Guatemala. The parents' refugee applications have been refused. But, as Julian's mother told us in April, the parents fear for their lives. Now the family believes that they are in danger of being separated by Guatemalan authorities, because Julian's father is from Colombia. Paul Caulford is the Orozcos' family doctor. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Dr. Caulford, how is the family doing?

PAUL CAULFORD: Well, as can be expected, they're demoralized at this point. Julian in particular — the seven-year-old Canadian boy, citizen born here — is devastated. Today, he went into his classroom to say goodbye to his friends. And this morning when we saw him at the clinic to check his medical condition for flight, he was still under the impression that he would be going to Guatemala this morning, but he'd be back in time for school on Monday.

NK: The Refugee Board rejected Julian's parents’ claims. When we first covered this story last spring, Julian's mother, Rosalba, told us she was afraid for their lives. What do they worry it's going to happen when they land in Guatemala?

PC: Their worry — and I think it's a very valid, material, and a real risk — is that the very gangs in Guatemala — one of the M gangs, they go by numbers and names — will find her. They've threatened to do that, and they've done it before. When she fled from Guatemala in the late 1990s to the U.S. and then was in Los Angeles, the gangs found her there as well. And they beat her there. And they beat her and attacked her in Guatemala in the small village. They’ll be seven to eight kilometres away from this gang. And they followed their properties, so to speak. And they have threatened the family that if she returns, they will harm her and harm Julian.

NK: Why are they after her?

PC: My understanding from — and I have no reason to not believe this — when she was young at that time, she met a young man. And it turned out that it was in the gang. She did not know that. And after four months, she tried to leave as things got worse. And she knew things. And they attacked her. And they did not want her to leave the relationship.

NK: Julian is a Canadian citizen. He's grown up in this country. How prepared is he for the change that is coming?

PC: Julian is seven-years-old, and his comprehension of what is happening is very, very limited. He's been devastated by the news that he's leaving. He was going to his taekwondo championships this weekend with his friends. He was receiving the honour of his green belt. He was looking forward to being in school on Monday for a school trip with his friends. He has no idea where he is going, why he's going there, why he is being deported from Canada? He is a Canadian citizen born here, and he's worried about being separated from his family. He was pretty well in tears this morning.

NK: There's also the added fear that Julian's father is going to be sent from Guatemala to Colombia.

PC: Yes, we have zero confidence that Jorge won't be removed and sent to Colombia at some point — either on arrival or shortly after. We pray that we're wrong. We pray that the information turns out to be valid. But we believe this is a family separation ongoing.

NK: Is there anything else that can be done at this point for this boy — this Canadian and his family?

PC: We have reached out to MPs — those in his riding and those in my riding. And I will say that one particular MP has gone to the wall for this issue in the last 48 hours. Reaching out to what is now a caretaker government. And the information we received back after all of his efforts looking for a miracle was that this family has been given due process under the law and it's not going to be changed. That the information had reached the level of Minister Hussein at IRCC and reached Minister Goodall's public safety office, and that no interventions were being anticipated at this point. Not everything shows up on the balance sheet when they look at how this family has tried to stay here over the past 12 years — including what would it be like to be separated from your from your family? And what would it look like if you were in an environment in Guatemala where your life was at risk?

NK: If those ministers are listening, what would you want to tell them?

PC: I would want to tell them that the story of this family is Canada's story. That this is a seven-year-old boy. That Canada is better than this. That there are some simple steps that can be taken to take a look at what is a family who have been a model family. They've started their own small business. tThey've looked after themselves. They've employed young students to do work with them in their window cleaning business. They've educated Julian. And going home is a clear risk to the life of this boy. And he's in no risk here. So I’d ask them to think hard on this and do the right thing.

NK: Dr. Caulford, thank you for your time.

PC: Thank you for yours.

KG: Paul Caulford is a family doctor who's been helping the family of Julian Orozco. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

St. FX homecoming

KG: Men's football is often a centrepiece of homecoming weekends. It's certainly been the main event at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia for the past 65 years. But this weekend, the university is ditching the Saturday football game for something else: women's rugby. CBC Halifax spoke with Anna Horner, co-captain of the team and Leo MacPherson, the director of athletics and recreation at St. FX. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

LEO MACPHERSON: I think the catalyst to the change is we're celebrating 50 years of female sports at St. FX. And the other key driver is you know it's 2019, female sports have come so far. Our women's rugby team are perennial contenders — six-time national championship team — and many of our alumni have heard about their success — but not that many have actually been able to watch it in-person. So moving to Saturday afternoon gives them that platform.

KATY PARSONs: Anna, when your team found out this was happening, what was the reaction?

ANNA HORNER: I think at first it was sort of a state of shock. We've been here some of us for four years, and we've always watched football on Saturday afternoon. So for us to be granted that honour and privilege of that primetime Saturday slot, it's honestly just really exciting. And the girls are really excited and looking forward to it.

KP: Have either of you, and I hate to ask this, but have either of you heard any backlash to this decision?

LM: You know, anytime you make a change like this, there's some risk involved. And people get caught up with tradition and think it's the way it always should be. So I've had a few comments and feedback that you know not understanding why we're changing it. But overwhelmingly, the feedback has been very, very positive.

AH: I personally haven't heard a single negative comment. And I know for a fact neither of the women on the team. I think that football is probably our number one supporter on that sort of switch. So that's awesome to see as well.

KG: That's Anna Horner, co-captain of the women's rugby team at St. Francis Xavier University. Before her, you heard Leo MacPherson, director of the university's athletics and recreation, speaking with "Mainstreet"'s Katy Parsons.

[Music: Indie rock]

Research award winner

Guest: Michael Fehlings

KG: Age ain't nothing but a number. And for Dr. Michael Fehlings, that number is just over 200,000. Not in years, but in dollars. Today, the Canadian researcher won the Ryman Prize — an international award given to someone who enhances the quality of life for older people. Dr. Fehlings is a neurosurgeon at Toronto Western Hospital and a professor at the University of Toronto. He studies degenerative spine conditions — which are often misdiagnosed as just old age. We reached Dr. Michael Fehlings in Auckland, New Zealand.

NK: First of all, Dr. Fehlings, congratulations.

MICHAEL FEHLINGS: Oh thank you, it's a real honour to have received the Ryman Prize.

NK: Dr, you won this award for your work on degenerative cervical myelopathy. What exactly is that?

MF: Imagine that your mind is totally clear, but your thoughts, your wishes, your commands cannot be translated into proper actions. And you may have significant numbness and pain. You can't walk properly. Your handwriting is off. And you're losing your independence. That's what happens when your spinal cord doesn't work properly. The spinal cord conveys the signals from your brain to your body. And the most common cause of spinal cord impairment in the world is a condition called degenerative cervical myelopathy, which results from progressive compression of the nerves in the spinal cord in the neck area — the cervical area. And this causes progressive dysfunction and problems with the nerve cells in the spinal cord. And it's left untreated, this will result in very profound impairment.

NK: It really resets conventional thinking that I think a lot of laypeople might have when they hear about spinal conditions. They think that there has to be an accident, someone being hurt. But what you're saying is that's not the case in so many of these cases?

MF: Yeah, that's correct. So people are generally aware of traumatic spinal cord injury when we think of Christopher Reeve, Rick Hansen, and so on. But there's another type of spinal cord injury that we refer to as non-traumatic spinal cord injury. And it's far commoner. And the onset is more gradual and more progressive. And it can often occur in such a way that it's not recognized or it's misdiagnosed. And this occurs as a result of ageing, but it doesn't necessarily only affect older individuals. And, in fact, the average age of a person who gets this condition is in the mid-50s. But I've operated on people who are in their 20s who developed this condition. It's estimated that perhaps as many as 10 per cent of individuals in our society will get this condition. So it's something that the public and general physicians need to be increasingly aware of.

NK: What should people be looking for so they can prevent a misdiagnosis?

MF: The typical symptoms involve problems with walking where you may trip, you may need to use a handrail on the stairs whereas previously you did not, and then numbness, tingling, and problems with dexterity of the hands. The condition is often misdiagnosed as carpal tunnel syndrome. And then the third issue that arises — but only about half of patients — is significant pain in the neck. And the pain may be referred down one or both arms. When that occurs, usually the diagnosis is made more readily.

NK: Can you give us a sense of how your work has helped one of your patients?

MF: So this work has evolved over the last several years. And this has now culminated in international guidelines. A typical scenario is typified by a patient I just operated on a couple of weeks ago. And this is an individual who does in my clinic and had significant problems with his walking. And his hands weren't working properly anymore. And he had significant numbness in the hands and pain. He had degenerative arthritis. It had taken some time to make the diagnosis. He had significant pressure on the spinal cord. We operated on this man. We released the pressure on the spinal cord. And then we reconstructed the spine because it was very arthritic, and there was deformity. And as soon as he woke up, he noticed that his hands felt differently. And then within a day or two, he was starting to walk more steadily. Most individuals will describe the surgery as a game-changer.

NK: Can you understand why this is so often misdiagnosed? We talk a lot about the treatment of older people and how much attention is or isn't being paid to that segment of society.

MF: There is a certain stigma that people have related to neurological conditions. We see this in the setting of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson's, and other neurodegenerative conditions. It's frightening to individuals when they start losing function. And there there's a sense of denial. And then it tends to get written off as oh, it's just old age — unless the person is much younger. And because of the availability now of advanced imaging, the diagnosis is now being made more readily. And this is not unlike the situation we faced with heart attacks in the 1960s and 70s, and then stroke, where there needed to be major public awareness campaigns to enable individuals to self-diagnose their symptoms. And I think now the opportunity is there just to be aware of the potential of degenerative cervical myelopathy.

NK: Dr. Fehlings, thank you.

MF: You're most welcome, and thank you.

NK: Congratulations again.

MF: Thank you.

KG: Dr. Michael Fehlings is a neurosurgeon at Toronto Western Hospital and a professor at the University of Toronto. He's also the winner of this year's Ryman Prize, which was handed out today in Auckland, New Zealand. That's where we reached him. And you can find out more about this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Belgium wolf update

Guest: Koen Van Muylem

KG: The last time we told you about Naya, it was good news. But that good news was short-lived. Last January, Naya became the first wolf to be sighted in Belgium in 100 years. She made the country her home — attracting a mate and becoming pregnant. It was the beginning of a general resurgence of wolves in parts of Europe. But Naya hasn't been spotted since May — and now there are fears that she's been killed by hunters. Koen Van Muylem is a spokesperson for the Research Institute for Nature and Forest — a part of the government that has been tracking Naya since she arrived in Belgium. We reached Mr. Van Muylem in Brussels.

NK: Mr. Van Muylem, what makes you so sure that Naya is dead?

KOEN VAN MUYLEM: Well, we last saw her on camera footage early May. She was clearly very pregnant at that moment, about to give birth. We have a lot of cameras in the area, so we can, more-or-less, track every movement of the wolves in Belgium. After May 10th, she disappeared, which is normal because she was giving birth. And for a while after that, the behaviour of the male — August we called him — was normal as well. He was bringing prey towards the den. So everything looked normal. But very soon afterwards, the bringing of prey stopped. And August starts to behave like a solitary wolf again, which yeah, led us to the conclusion that something must be wrong. And yeah, we haven't seen Naya ever since. So she's been gone for over three-and-a-half months now. So we're pretty sure she's dead.

NK: And what about her pups?

KVM: They're most likely dead as well. We are, more-or-less, sure there were cubs at a certain moment because of the behaviour of the male bringing prey towards the den. But that last for two weeks, so we think Naya died two weeks after giving birth. And then, of course, the cubs are too young to survive on their own. And we’re afraid they died as well.

NK: Is there any proof that any foul play was involved?

KVM: There is no real proof. We didn't find the corpse of Naya. And we certainly didn't find hunters or other people in the act of actually shooting at Naya or whatever. So there's no smoking gun, so to speak. There are indications at one point a drone flew over the area, and they caught poachers who had loaded guns in the in their truck. So there’s poaching going on. But we don't have real proof of Naya being killed.

NK: If it wasn't poachers, what else could it have been?

KVM: Well, there's a number of other possibilities. Road kill is very, very well possible in Belgium. But the thing is we noticed ever since Naya arrived here in early 2018, she's been crossing roads practically on a daily basis. So she's very clever. Her partner as well. So traffic is, more-or-less, excluded. Another possibility poisoning, but then August would have been the victim as well because he was the one carrying food to her. So he should have been the first victim, and he's still alive and kicking. So poisoning is exclude as well. Death in childbirth, more-or-less, excluded as well because we have clear indications that there were cubs during a short period at least. Yeah, in the end, there's not many other options than foul play left I'm afraid.

NK: We first heard about Naya last January, can you remind us though how she ended up in Belgium?

KVM: Well, she had a long travel before she came to Belgium. She was born in the north of Germany. And luckily, she was wearing a G.P.S. tracker collar around the neck, so we could trace her every movement. Yeah, she wandered around in Germany for a little while, then for a little while in the north of Holland, and then in a couple of days she made the trip from the north of Holland to the north of Belgium, and she ended up here close to New Year 2018.

NK: Her arrival was a big deal for researchers. How exciting was it for you and your team?

KVM: Yeah, it was very exciting because there hadn't been wolves in Belgium for over 150 years, so it was completely new this this arrival of wolves. It had been happening in our neighbouring countries, in Germany, France, even in Holland. But for us, it was totally new. And we were very curious how these animals would be or if at all would be able to adapt themselves to a densely populated country like Belgium. We don't have very big nature areas, there’s people and roads everywhere. So we were very curious how they would adapt to it.

NK: There's now a reward for about 39,000 Canadian dollars for information into Naya’s disappearance, and it's coming from environmental groups. They blame hunters. And the Hunter’s Association though is pushing back and threatening to sue them for libel. What does that tell you about the issue of wolves in Belgium?

KVM: Well, I don't think the country is really divided. I think the majority of people are favourable to the return of the wolves. But there are two groups that are very wary of what is happening. That’s people who hold who have sheep. Because yeah, these are often the victim off of roaming wolf attacks. And then this year there's also some animosity with the hunters in Belgium. They sort of consider them as competitors. And those two groups are not too happy with the arrival of the wolves. But I think the majority of the population is mainly neutral or even very positive about it.

NK: How would you characterize this loss.

KVM: It's not really a tragedy I think because Belgium-Flanders is at the crossing roads of two movements. There's a movement of wolves from the north from Germany. There's a movement of wolves from the south from Italy and France. And we're sort of at the crossroads of those two movements. So we're actually pretty confident there will be a new will soon. It's, of course, a pity because yeah, everybody was looking forward to having the very first wolf pack in in 150 years. So we're it's a pity this had to happen, but we're also at the same time confident that new wolves will keep on arriving in Flanders.

NK: Mr. Van Muylem, I thank you for your time.

KVM: You're welcome.

KG: Koen Van Muylem is a spokesperson for the Research Institute for Nature and Forest in Belgium. We reached him in Brussels. And if you’d like to read more about Naya’s history, head to our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

October 04 episode transcript

More Stories Like This